Why does DnD still use spell slots instead of mana pools?

>>51901029
Just like your image, D&D is married to its legacy to the point that it cannot shed its conventions.
That being said, there are alternate spell point rules in modern editions. Just gotta find the rules for them.

>>51901029

Do I really need to explain it? Because once you invest into that sort of system assholes will exploit it.

That is why some people hate psionics.

Lv 5 wizard can cast only 1 fireball per day. Psionics can use all their "mana" to cast only most powerful spells ignoring the weaker ones. That means the can potentially can 6 fireballs a day.

So if (read as he will most definetly) spellcaster enters a fight with big number of mana points he will just nuke everything in a room until nothing moves or he will cast single target spells into one guy over and over again.

Having spell slots gives you wide range of weaker to stronger spells. You actually need to think what you will cast and when.

>>51901363
But psionics are universally regarded as more balanced than magic

>>51901029
Because it might be awful, but it's not THAT bad.

>>51901029
5e's spell slot system is actually not Vancian: it's more like the old-school Final Fantasy way of it where you have a number of castings for each tier, but those castings can be of any available spell and not just ones pledged to those slots.

>>51901420
>[Citation needed]

>>51901443
I've never played a wizard in an older edition of D&D, how do the mechanics differ from 5e's wizard?

>>51901443
That sounds like a plain old sorcerer to me.

>>51901363
That is not how things work in mana based systems at all.

Especially when there are consequences to going hard all the time or after blowing your magical load it will take a while to regenerate your mana.

File: puking blood.gif (19KB, 100x100px) Image search: [Google]

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Mana systems make me sick

>>51901029
>why does DnD still use the second blandest way to limit magic per day instead of the first blandest?

>>51901513
Actually, yes. Wizards in 5e are a lot like 3.5 sorcerers, while sorcerers are plainly worse wizards.

>>51901363
>what is hard to regenerate mana
>what is substance dependent mana
>like vampires depending on blood in Masquerade

>>51901363
this would make a lot more sense if you weren't defending a system where a wizard can end the fight in a single spell

>>51901464
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Tier_System

>>51901029
giving spellcasters even more versatility would surely improve D&D ...

>>51901029

Because the basic meta hasn't changed. The idea was that magic is about managing a very limited resource. You are locked into certain spells, with limited uses. This tight control makes selection and usage very important, especially if the GM is clever about throwing unexpected encounters your way.

This is a counter to the raw power that spells had when applied properly, like toasting a dozen guys or once (which the archer can't do) or flying over an obstacle (which the acrobatic rogue cannot do). Caught with the wrong spells, or spending them poorly, is a huge hit to the ability of the party.

More recent editions like 5e have narrowed the power gap between 'caster at his best' and 'non-caster' significantly, so casters are less constrained. Cantrips are more useful, spell slots are more flexible, sorcerers exist, and so on. But the core concept deep down is still there and still true.

>>51901513
It's not quite. More like a rotating sorcerer. Broader overall spell selection but more limited by the day.
>>51901557
Sorcerers have their own advantages and typically better damage per round thanks to metamagics.

I like spell slots. Dark Souls uses slots, but instead of my class having slots, it is the spells themselves that have slots. I think the slots increase based on a stat. In anycase i really like the way Dark Souls does it's spell slots, i think it opens the door for more variety of spell values.

It's more numbers to keep track of, but I don't think thats an issue for competent people.

>>51901513

Not quite. 5e Wizards still have a spellbook, but each day they prepare x number of spells of y level from the spells they know. Of these spells, they can cast them sort of like a 3.5 Sorcerer would. So if I have Fireball and Lightning Bolt prepared, and 5 level 3 slots, I could cast 3 Fireballs and 3 Lightning Bolts, or 5 Fireballs and 1 Lightning Bolt, or any such combination I want. This is different from older editions, in which you had to specify EXACTLY which slots had which spells, so if you prepared Fireball and Lightning Bolt as your level 3 spells you'd have to specify exactly how many of each you wanted.

Sorcerers in 5e don't have that. They just have the spells they know, a smaller number of spells they can cast per day, but more slots to cast them with. Less versatility, more output, essentially. However, metamagic (Being able to alter specifics of your spells like maximizing damage or increasing the saving throw and such) which used to be a feat-based thing Wizards mostly had is now a Sorcerer class feature straight-up. My big problem with Sorcerers is that they have an awesome way to be elemental specialists, pyromancers or cryomancers or lightning mages...but the spell selection just doesn't support it because there will be a bunch of levels which just don't have spells of that element. Being a pyromancer is great, for example, but good luck being a lightning-themed mage based off Nicola Tesla at higher levels when zappy spells just stop showing up.

>>51901545
>limit
>"I should just be able to cast whatever I want whenever I want with no limits and be a god because I'm smart!"
>>/lgbt/

>>51901583

Is that still how it works in 5e?

>>51901669
>good luck being a lightning-themed mage

I think they were.moving towards fixing this with the elemental bloodlines in unearthed arcana though of COURSE there's no lightning one

One easy fix I think would be to allow an aspects sorcerer to change the element type of other spells to their chosen element. A DM can house rule that easy enough I think. It's not like direct damage spells are that powerful anyway

What I find funny is that sorcerers and wizards use the same system of magic when it's implied that sorcerers magic is innate where the wizards magic is learned.

It would thematically make more sense for the sorcerer to use a mana system

>>51901694
Or you could use more interesting methods, like cast from health, cast from fatigue, charge-based, skill-based, perils-linked, et c.

>>51901705
Generally not quite, unless the fight is a lot of weak enemies (Fireball hits for very good damage) or they're willing to blow their highest power slots which they get very few of (only one level 8 and level 9 per day, full stop, no way to get more other than Epic Boons).
There are no save-or-lose spells at all. In fact, the only save-or-lose effect at all belongs to the Monk.

>>51901583

I'm not defending it. I hate dnd. But you have a point. A wizard can end a fight with a single spell. Now release him from his shackles that are spell slots. Let him cast that one spell 3-5 times in a single fight.

Better yet on higher levels power increases and available mana increases. While wizard can cast only 4 highest level spells (and maybe one or two bonus spells) and then needs to use lower spell slots psion (or mana based spellcaster) doesn't need to waste his mana on lesser spells. Psion can spend ALL of his mana to cast 9th level powers 20 times a day.

>>51901744
Sounds like the Psion has way too much mana. If I were designing the system and wanted him to be equivalent to a Wizard who can only cast 1 9th level spell per day, I would give him enough power to cast 3 or 4, at the cost of spending virtually ALL his casting ability for that day on those spells. It's a pretty fair trade at that point I think, and generally he should want to ration his power in order to avoid running out too fast. It's much more of a problem if you only end up with one or two encounters per day, but no per-day system is going to be balanced for that.

>>51901029
>instead of mana pools?
Why would you assume Mana pool is any better compared to other methods?

>>51901464
Assuming this is a 3.5 conversation at least they really are. The main reasons wizards have an edge is that there are a shit ton more spells than powers to choose from, and a lot of the stupidly OP ones that end a fight with some difficult to avoid random effect (like irresistible dance) don't have a psionic alternative. It also helps the wizmen that their weaker spells improve automatically as they level as opposed to psions who need to spend more points to keep up. Using spell point UA rules makes wizards even better though

>>51901837
It offers more flexibility in combat. More tactical choices for the player and less out of combat bookkeeping.

>>51901734
>There are no save-or-lose spells at all.
That's not entirely true, but there are exceedingly few of them.

>>51901868
More flexibility than ANY other system other there? Less bookkeeping than ANY other system?

I'll need to see some comparisons.

>>51901878
The only one I know that's in the book is Imprisonment, but that requires a ridiculously huge investment of [X*500 where X is the target's HD] GP and has a solid 1 minute casting time (10 combat rounds), and thus hardly counts at all.

>>51901902
Who needs comparisons when you have mathematical certainty? The bookkeeping on a point pool amounts to keeping track of a single number. The only possible way for it to be less is for there to be no number to track, which would imply an unlimited system.

Similarly, how can you have more flexibility than being allowed to cast any spell you please from your entire list of known spells?

>>51901363
That's complete bullshit, because your example hinges on shitty spell cost balance.

Take DSA for example (The Dark Eye in english). It uses a mana pool system, but damage is usually done on a 1-for-1 basis. So a typical wizard with somewhere around 30 hit points and 40 spell points can blast an enemy away, but is then pretty much fucked for the rest of the week (because mana regenerates quite slowly). It encourages tactical usage of magic and support spells, rather than overwhelming blasting.

>>51901940
And...?

>>51901941
>That's complete bullshit, because your example hinges on shitty spell cost balance.

>>51901029
>Why does DnD still use spell slots instead of mana pools?

He asked for specific system and I told him why it isn't a good idea to change it into mana.

>>51901029
Because D&D is incapable of change and has basically nailed itself to some dumb design concepts, of which Vancian Casting is one.

>>51901669
They basically removed Metamagic from everyone except the Sorcerer. Removing content is usually bad, and this is a great example of a bad design choice.

>>51902131
FUCK metamagic

>>51901029
5e uses it because old editions used it.

Old editions used it because managing spell slots and planning your loadout for the day is an interesting resource management mechanic deeper than 'I cast whatever'.

>>51901363
>6 fireballs a day
And nothing else because he wasted all his points

>>51902379

And he doesn't need to. He used lesser number of higher level spells to achieve higher potential.

Would you rather cast 5d6 fireball 6 times or 5d6 fireball only once (and having only 2 2d6 offensive spells prepared) because spell slots limit you?
>Attacked by multiple enemies.
> I cast fireball. They are wounded by still alive. Well fuck. That was my only high level spell.
>I cast fireball. They are wounded. I cast it again. And again. And again. Thank you mana pool.

Casting only 1 invisibility spell or covering entire party in invisibility?

Stop grasping on straws. You clearly don't see the full possible potential. You only see possibility for versatility. To cast a spell you need at some specific moment moment of time. You don't see the breaking point and possible abuse.

Nothing's wrong with mana pools as long as you can't use more than a quarter of your maximum mana at a time.

>>51902619
Agreed, with the addition of: You CAN use more than a quarter, but it's a roll (DC harder every time. Resets with a long rest) to not lose control and either fuck yourself up or cause the spell to be flawed in some way.

>>51902522
> I cast fireball. They are wounded by still alive. I cast a Slightly lower level spell. And again. And again. All of my party members have had an equal opportunity to contribute in this team oriented game. I didn't end a difficult encouter in the same amount of turns as a simple goblin ambush would have taken. Thank you spell slots.
fixed

>>51902734
The argument wasn't about whether or not it helped to contribute to a team based game. If that was the case, any which way you slice it Wizard and other casters are still the top of the shit heap, slots or mana.

The problem is mana pools let you spam high level spells, while spell slots relegate you to having only one high level spell, when usually said high level spells are the only things you want to cast in the first place.

Stop trying to change the subject.

>>51902131
Sorcerers wackily manipulating magic on the fly fits their flavor much better than a wizard doing the same with rote-learned spells.

mana works out fine in anima, but it's balanced by recovery being a huge pain in the ass (read: taking multiple days to recover the energy spent on a few low level spells) unless you heavily invest in speeding it up and the system having several other magic systems that work differently.

in D&D all spellcasting is either wizard or "wizard but with gimmick X" at it's core, so by introducing mana you basically force people into playing any spellcaster in a different way and that's something they don't wanna do, so they keep it.

>>51902522
What you think is happening
>OMG PSION IS CASTING 5-6 FIREBALL WHEN WIZARD CAN ONLY CAST 1 OP!!!!

What is actually happening
>Psion has to blow all of his PP to cast those fireballs, which do not scale to his level whatsoever, so a level 10 Psion has to spend 10 PP to actually achieve that effect
>plus unlike the Wizard, the Psion actually has a limited choice in powers and powers are weaker as a whole than spells are
>meanwhile the Wizard can still throw out 3 fireballs as soon as he hits level 5, but he's also got a ton of autoscaling level 1 and level 2 damage spells, and by level 10 those fireballs are 10d6 for free. Account for metamagic and a fireball spammer is throwing out 12 fireballs a day while still having a full complement of level 1 and 2 spells while the Psion can deplete their entire stock of PP to throw out 10.
>plus spell and power damage is shit if you're not a Sorceror abusing Arcane Fusion tricks to orb everyone within a 100 yard circumference from you 4 times in a row anyways so why the fuck does any of this matter? Oh wait it doesn't you don't know what you're talking about.

>>51901744
thing is allow the wizard to cast more spells and be more flexible in which spells to cast also allows you to reduce the power of each individual spell which in turn makes balancing the magical and non-magical classes easier

also if we're talking about 3.5, a psion using all his pp on his highest level spells is not being efficient in the slightest, some of the most useful powers they have are enhanced low level ones (that cost as much as high level ones due to said enhancements) and a psion generally runs out of power long before the wizard runs out of spells

>>51902799
>when usually said high level spells are the only things you want to cast in the first place.
This is only true if you're a retard who doesn't know how to play a caster.

>>51902799
>The problem is mana pools let you spam high level spells
which is a problem of shit design, not mana itself.

If you can spam high level stuff with mana, your system is broken either because

>mana isn't valuable as a resource due to having too much/too easily recovered
or

>your spells are broken by costing too little mana, or lower level spells not being as good as high level ones because you designed them anime power level style where as you learn higher level spells you get bigger numbers and little else so early ones are pointless

or some combination of the three

your specific example of mana letting you spam high level spells is faulty because you can do the same shit with spell slots. even without the one hour dungeon crawl meme if spamming fireball is seriously so effective over everything else in a game that you can and should do it as often as possible I'll just prepare 5 copies of it in all my spell slots which is fundamentally the same as using all my mana to do the same thing only with more busywork.

>>51902849
my theory is that everyone who hates the 3.5 incarnation of psionics has failed to read the "a psion is limited to spending his total level in power points per power" rule and as a direct result believes a level 1 psion can somehow shit out an 8d6 alpha strike by spending everything he has

>>51902914
You can technically do something like that with Overchannel, but A) that's fucking stupid because it leaves you a sitting duck for the entire rest of the day, B) ending an encounter with your entire stock of PP isn't overpowered, but it's likely you could find another power that could end or cripple an encounter for a cheaper cost anyways, and C) this will most likely kill you due to Overchannel backlash on a d4 HP class.

>>51901420

>ohwaityoureseriousletmelaughevenharder.jpg

>>51901473
Older editions ran off "Vancian Casting". You had a number of Spells Memorized slots depending on your level, which also controlled the highest level of spell you could memorize.

Each time you studied your spellbook, which you did as part of an 8 hour rest, you could fill those Memorization slots with spells as you saw fit.

Whenever you cast a spell, it was a one-shot deal; the spell slot dedicated to it was wiped clean and you couldn't cast it anymore.

So, if you want to cast Fireball twice, you need to devote two level 3 Memorized Spell Slots to Fireball.

This meant a Wizard in pre-4th edition was essentially a walking gun with so many bullets loaded in it. Once you shot one, it was gone for good until you spent time reloading.

The 5e version is much better.

>>51901029
Because spell slots are the better system, as evidenced by the sharp decline of the Final Fantasy franchise since they ditched them.

>>51902964
overchannel only lets you increase your manifester level by 1 at lv 1

which at best lets you do 2d6 single target damage as none of the lv 1 powers upgrade particularly well

in return you deal 1d8 damage to yourself at lv 1 as a d4 hp class

there's plenty of other ways of dealing 2d6 damage at lv 1 that don't involve suicide

>>51902989
>metamagic equivalent requires you to spend actions like a Sorceror
>limited ways to expand your powers known
>powers don't scale with level, and outside of a very, very small list, are universally weaker than spells: see Greater Magic Weapon vs Metaphysical Weapon for exactly why this is an issue
>have to spend a feat to get a familiar equivalent
Yeah they're way more powerful than Wizards bro, how could I have not seen this?

>>51902989
they really are
only thing psions are better at than wizards is blaster, which is universally considered to be the least efficient use of magic in the game

>>51903059
Psions aren't really better than Wizards at blasting when you account for orbs.

>>51903055
psions don't require an action for their equivalent of metamagic but they need to use a limited resource which requires a full action to recover (resource being limited to a maximum of like 4 stored in a minmaxed build and usually limited to 1 in total)

>>51903083
That's the point. Psionic focus isn't free.

>>51903069
they can deal 30d6 points of non-magical damage with a 3th level spell (unupgraded, so full lv3 equivalency)
is there a trick to get orbs to that level of efficiency?

>>51901443
>it's more like the old-school Final Fantasy way of it
That's because Final Fantasy used simplified AD&D rules.

>>51901562
Blood points work really well, I think. Tremere shit is my jam. Bag of weird herbs and shit, book of weird lore and shit, coins enchanted with that ritual that lets you stash blood inside them, a fucking machete Warded vs Kindred, and your trusty shotgun with silver shot is all you need in unlife.

>>51901630
>citing 1d4chan

Seriously?

>>51902914
It's the same thing as people reading the powers table and assuming everyone can cast disintegrate at level 1 (it requires level 3 with max stats, it has at most a 45% chance of success, and a 5% chance of killing yourself, no one who actually played a psionicist in 2e ever used disintegrate more than once)

>>51903185
>implying 1d4chan came up with the tier list

>>51902914

And this is where you are wrong. If he can cast 9 level powers then he CAN spend all his powerpoints to cast ONLY 9 level powers. Sure he can only spend a finite number of powerpoints per turn but that doesn't change the fact he CAN cast only 9 level powers and not waste his time with lower ones.

So in short. He can't do more dmg with his fireballs but he will still have a possibility to cast 6 of them when he reaches level 5. While wizard can only cast 1 (max 2 if he has 20 intelligence on level 5)

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Does anyone else here think that people are conflating "3.X/Pathfinder psionics is more balanced than 3.X/Pathfinder Vancian" with "mana points are more balanced than spell slots"?

3.X/Pathfinder psionics is indeed absolutely more balanced than 3.X/Pathfinder Vancian, but not because of power points. It is because of the way individual psionic powers are constructed, tamed down from their Vancian versions, rendered more expensive, and/or simply made to do less. There is no real 1st-level Color Spray equivalent in psionics, for example, nor a 2nd-level Create Pit or 3.5 Glitterdust equivalent.

Power points alone are not more balanced than Vancian spell slots, because Vancian slots are inherently more limiting and require more meticulous (some would find this enjoyable) management of resources. Rather than spam the best option you have available as with power points, Vancian forces you to manage your "prepackaged shots" with great care, in exchange for great power.

Directly translating 3.X/Pathfinder-style Vancian slots spell slots to mana points, even at a reduced rate, actually gets you something horrifically overpowered:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/spellPoints.htm

So yes, 3.X/Pathfinder psionics are far more balanced than 3.X/Pathfinder Vancian, but let us not pretend for a second that such balance was due to power points.

>>51903217
>If he can cast 9 level powers then he CAN spend all his powerpoints to cast ONLY 9 level powers.
Which isn't better than spending your points like someone who isn't a drooling fucking retard.

>>51903217
and he's a fun fact: wizards can end an entire encounter in a single lv 9 spell, psions generally cannot do so in a single lv 9 power

and it requires a lv 17 psion before he can LEARN lv 9 powers so even if you somehow managed to get a low level character to the point it could shit out 17 pp in a single turn it couldn't spend it on a power it does not know


and once again I cannot stress this to much: a psion literally cannot spend all his power points on a single spell, it is not allowed in the rules

>>51903250
The point is that a mana based system isn't inherently less balanced than a Vancian system, which is what fucktard keeps claiming.

>>51903250
>Rather than spam the best option you have available as with power points, Vancian forces you to manage your "prepackaged shots" with great care, in exchange for great power.

your first paragraph is pointing out that vancian doesn't just mean 3.x, then you make a complaint that mainly applies to 3.x only

in 4/5 you can have way more control over what you spend spell slots on in the heat of a situation, and failing that sorcerers exist

>>51901654
I miss the playtest Gish dragon sorcerers.

>>51903250
however due to the inherent flexibility of the power point/mana pool system, especially considering how 3.5 (3.0 psionics suck monkey balls) powers can be upgraded to deal more damage or gain additional effects, it also allows individual powers to be less powerful without hindering the character itself (as evidenced by the fact that despite being toned down compared to the wizard, the psion is still one of the most powerfull classes around)

high lv wizard spells by necessity need to be ungodly powerful to justify their few uses, high level psionic powers not so much given you can theoretically cast nothing but them

a mana system gives system developers a lot more design space

>>51903265

in what regard I said he can spend all his power points on single spell?

Wizard has four 1st level spells, four 2nd level spells, four 3rd level etc. all the way to 4 9th level spells.

Psion has 383 powerpoints (343 from class. 40 from bonus points from intelligence modifier) Each 9th level power costs 17 points. If he decides he can cast 9th level power 22 times.

And this is why you don't change the spell slots in dnd. It is broken system. You can't fix it. You want mana wizards? Play different system.

I swear to god I sometimes think some of you people have reading disorder. OP asked about dnd, spell slots and changing it into mana pool. I explained why this is stupid and 100% chance of system abuse.

>>51903383
generally speaking you only need a single lv 9 spell per encounter
maybe 3 or 4 if its a really tough one

and the wizard's lv 9 abilities are flat out better than the psion.

>>51903135
How?

>>51901363
>6 fireballs a day
Or no he can't. Fireball is higher level so costs more. He can use one of those plus 3 magic missile, or can choose to use 9 magic missile and no fireball.

Or whatever

>>51901868
>Bookkeeping

They are WIZARDS

>>51903135
>30d6 points of non-magical damage with a 3th level spell (unupgraded
Mind telling me how you're supposed to go about doing that?

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>>51903277

4e has perhaps the most tactically engaging take on "Vancian," because of the way you really do have only "one shot" per battle for most of your abilities, and the way you have at-will powers to rely on.

That said, I do think that the daily power recharge system should have been more like 13th Age's daily recharge, where a "day" simply meant "three to five battles regardless of actual in-game days."

>>51903446

Yes he can. 3rd level power costs 5 points. He has 30 powerpoints. Basic math.

>>51903446
>>51903409
>I swear to god I sometimes think some of you people have reading disorder. OP asked about dnd, spell slots and changing it into mana pool. I explained why this is stupid and 100% chance of system abuse.

This isn't about psion vs wizard. It is about wizard potential getting steroids when switching to mana pool.

And yes. Psion can do similar thing on level 5 with Energy Burst.

>>51903265
>psions generally cannot do so in a single lv 9 power
Most mid/high-level powers are situational garbage, the good stuff is in levels 1-3.

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>>51903523
>Psion can do similar thing on level 5 with Energy Burst.
???

>>51903599
there's a good number of high level powers I would gladly use

>>51903623

lv 5 wizard fireball 5d6
lv 5 psion energy burst 5d6

do you have reading disorder?

>>51903663
AoE vs AoE centered around you. Completely different effects.

>>51903663
Fireball hits people 600+ feet away.
Energy Burst hits all your allies.

A 5th level wizard gets 5d6 out of a 3rd level spell slot.
A 5th level psion gets 5d6 out of "a 3rd level spell slot."
A 10th level wizard gets 10d6 out of a 3rd level spell slot.
A 10th level psion gets 10d6 out of "two 3rd level spell slots."

Any recommendations of good systems that use mana pools?

>>51901029
Spell Slots are better and a more interesting choice both mechanically and thematically.

>>51903909
Not really.

>>51902021
>He asked for specific system and I told him why it isn't a good idea to change it into mana.

But the actual mana system already in the game (psionics) is actually better balanced on multiple levels, so you are just kinda full of shit and don't know what you are talking about?

>>51903919
This discussion isn't gonna go anywhere, but to be sincere for a second neither system is outright better - just more preferable, or more suited to a specific person or feel of game. There's nothing wrong with spell slots as a system. There's nothing wrong with mana pools either.

I personally like spell slots in D&D. I don't think it's mechanical baggage that needs to be shed; it definitely adds more to the game than it takes away for me. It's not really like it is in the Jack Vance books it's taken from but that's also OK. Like much of what has been ripped off for D&D it's become its own thing.

>>51903954
>you are just kinda full of shit

He isn't asking to play psions. He is asking why dnd uses spell slots and not mana. Learn to read, not latch on segments and automatically going into psions defence. Because god forbid someone says something against psions.

>>51902522
I'd rather cast haste and let the party damage dealers do more than 5d6 every turn

>>51903021
Someone is mistaking corolation with causation again. ^-^

>>51901363
I've played dnd 5e with spell slots converted directly to mana. We did that for like a year (before switching systems) and didn't run into any kind of issues with it.

Honestly it's a good way to do things. It makes tracking a lot less onerous without any noticeable impact on factors relevant to game-balance.

Because the people who make D&D aren't good at making role-playing games. That's literally the only reason.

5e is their most coherent and well designed system, and it's still just okay. There are dozens of systems that do what D&D does but better.

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>>51901029
because the one time they tried to shed the trappings of vancian magic in the name of gameist principles, people threw a tantrum.

>>51903203
>>51903185
>>51901630
The tier list is complete bullshit and based on one group of anon's anecdotal experience.

>>51901669
So it's even more complicated than 3.5 was.

>>51902131
I dunno, I think metamagic as a class feature works out nicer for Sorcerers. I wish they made Metamagic more of a core Sorcerer thing, let them have more metamagics and made some more for them to use.

>>51904993
>>51906357
Why do people act like spell slots vs. mana has an objectively correct answer?

The original justification for the spell slots was that the magic user actually forgot the spell after casting it. That is, the knowledge needed to cast a spell was more than just a set of instructions, it was a consumable reagent which came from the caster's mind. In order to cast the spell again, the magic user would need to study/pray in order to regain the knowledge.

>>51901029
Because it does. And no matter how much you whine about it, it'll still outsell any of its competitors, except perhaps Pathfinder...which is just a D&D clone and uses Vancian magic, too.

And that's the end of that.

>>51906731
>The tier list is complete bullshit and based on one group of anon's anecdotal experience.
Paizo pls go and stay go

>>51901694
Man you suck at reading and making arguments.

He's complaining of the way it's implemented, not that there is a limit. Then you made a connection to lgbt which makes no sense, lacks context or rational.

Hey anon... are you ok? this was odd even for you.

>>51901029
Because it's more interesting to do, DnD is noty a video game and thus can do different things

and people like this asshole exist
>>51901868
Who miss the point of ROLEPLAYING

Reading through this thread has made me realise WAY to many Rpers should just go and play video games and missed the memo that Tabletop isn't about winning (this is directed at the spamtard) it's about a narrative played out between a group of people. The rules are there to add flavor and context, but tabletop isn't about crushing your oponents.

I honestly think spell slots are how wizards SHOULD work. Magic is a rare resource, and settings that make it abundant give it to EVERYONE, so really it's something that needs to be rationed. I shouldn't be able to spam more than a few fireballs without some sort of detriment. Not being able to use fireball is a good one.

You know what one of the biggest hindrances to versatility and inventivness? Open ended systems.

If i have the option to spam what ever is going to work for the situation EVERY time the only thing hindering me is how big my numbers are.

Spell slots add desperation and intricacy that 'i cast what i want' mana pool doesn't. For me, spell slots is a more FUN system, i really don't care much about else.

>>51903523
Of course the numbers would have to be balanced. Are you saying that they can't be?

>>51906731

No, absolutely not. You have to do less micromanaging, if that seems complicated to you you'd never have managed 3.5,

>>51907659

I think he was calling you a faggot.

>>51901642
With a mana based system it's easier to design it so that a level X wizard never can do more than Y yet always can do Z, so it's much easier to balance. The same cannot be done with a slot based system because what he can do also depends on his own spell selection.

>>51909024
I was a different anon, but yeah, seems like he was trying to be clever and dropped the ball.

>>51901941

That sounds boring as fuck.

Spell slots permit a much more bombastic and theatrical form of spell caster. Rather than having to weigh how much mana you spend on spells ("Eeh I could cast my super ultimate earth shattering spell, but I would be out of mana and I might need it, so I'll just throw out fizzlers") and budget it, you are a master of the arcane arts and can throw out what you have, when you have it ("IM FUCKING MAGIC, NIGGA")

Also components work like a form of mana pool, but not as "budget centric"

>>51901868
How so?
>Okay, this spell does decent damage and also doesn't cost much mana. This will be the only spell I ever use from now on.

>>51909030
While that has openness, it's actually a really empty system that prevents innovation.

But what i'm taking from your argument here is
>It's hard to design and balance a spell slot because you have to rely on the player not being a tard
>It's better, in a role playing sense, to always be able to do whatever you

On the first point, i have to disagree. I've played both types of systems in different capacity, and the most balanced and fun ones happen to be the one that have the most constraints while providing options to fill those constraints. You choose between a flamethrower or acid attacks or what not, but you can's spam that shit. Balance doesn't occur when the phrase 'Spam' is used. Basically, the main issue with a mana pool system, and it's balance, is the option to do whatever your can do, whenever you can afford to do it. I have fire 1 and fire 2, one costs X other Y i have Z mana. If i can, i will NEVER fire off a fire 1. Spell slots allow for... a more... dynamic thought process to occur in a wizard style character. That's more important than 'spam fireball, win encounter' is.

Which brings me to number 2;
i personally find it significantly less fun to be able to do whatever i want whenever i want. Too much freedom tends to constrain me. Makes me robotic and just do normal shit. I also enjoy not winning when i gave it a fair go. Because i'm not a child and enjoy story telling more than playing games

>>51909127
>>51909135

these guys get it.


I think relying on the player whos choosing to be a wizard to not be a trad is a perfectly fine design choice. I think that players have a responsibility to balance themselves, and that min maxers should be burned at the stake.

But hey, if you wanna be lame and kiddish, go ahead.

>>51909030
Giving a player a limitation, while also permitting them a large variety of choice, allows for every spellcaster being their own unique self. The difference between the two options is very clear. If you have a mana pool, you can have access to every spell under the sun, but you will only ever use a handful of them, majorly these spells would solely be for combat, because why waste mana on story telling spells, or gimmick spells, or what ever. With spell slots, the player picks and chooses what he wants his wizard to do, and because he's limited to what he can carry, he has to be careful with his choices, but at the same time, because he has no limitation on WHAT he can cast, the player is more likely to sprinkle in non-combat oriented spells to add some variety to what their spell caster can do.

I mean, in a world of mana pools, spells like grease, create demiplane, and prestidigitation would be completely pointless for a player to waste mana on, and in a scenario where the player has enough mana for that to be negligible, then the whole scenario becomes pointless in the end, because now you have a player who has access to every spell, and enough mana to not worry about blowing it, so now you have a broken player

Skill check-based magic with some added limitations could work. Kind of like 3.5 truenamer but without making you worse at magic with every level.

So to surmise;

It's fun, interesting (More so than Manapool) and ubiquitous with DnD. Removing it is kinda like removing d6's from warhams. it's just be wrong.

>>51903800
Gurps?

>>51903800
Abberant if you like being made of either paper or steel as a character.

Literally have never encountered a toon that isn't an unstoppable wall of death and never dying, or a glass canon of minor planetary doom. it's not a balanced game.

>>51901029
they lazy

i used mana from day 1 because a friend asked me out of the blue if i wanted to play.
without any system, just a bunch of minis.

after fleshing things out with like the third attempt on a homebrew of my own, i looked into DnD once. I am glad that we didnt try to run a game with this mess

spell slots are much easier to track, but the gameplay possibilities are mediocre at best.
with mana, you can do everything spell slots can and more. adjusting mana costs and effect, having guidelines for the players to create their own magic and specialize in categories.

Enemies of mana systems like to forget its flexibility in balancing and gameplay, and pretend that it is inherently bad, simply because they are too retarded to get into game disign

>>51910049
Say what?

I've made hundreds of spells for a 3.5 because my friend and i built a world that had different shit. Spell slots allow for that too you dingus.

And again, the main problems that people who dislike mana systems have (like myself) realize having infinite freedom to cast whatever when ever as long as you can afford it result in stagnation and sameness. basically, if i always have the option to cast a spell that kills my enemy, then fuck it ima cast it. Which is the main issue literally everyone who's anti magic pool is having.

to call us lazy for meticulously (like a wizard) choosing which spells we prime is fucking idiotic anon.

it's more lazy to slap a cost on something and leave it at that though...

I've always thought of it like this; It takes a lot of magic to violate the rules of the universe, either you do the necessary build up internally all the time (sorcs and spontaneous casting with what is effectively tiered mana pools) or you carefully set aside the magic and shape it before you cast because you physically cannot cast otherwise (wiz's clerics and druids). Basically it's saying that magic is hard, rewarding, and not something to spam. The connotation is much more in line with actually roleplaying than mana pools because it's more dynamic and forces the play to not always choose the win button. In my opinion manapools are inherently unbalanced, allow for spamming of the win button, and stifle any creativity in the USE of spells.

But that's because i prefer to play video games when i want to play a spambot.

I'm wondering if the issue for your is that you can run out of big spells to spam and win? Which, honestly, is a childish thing to care about when you're playing a narrative, and not a fucking video game.

>>51910218
I'd rather say that forcing the player through internal mechanics to use different spells rather than to create the need for variation through the external circumstances is bullshit.

and you argue on a level of magical effect that is used in DnD as i see it.

casting time, costs and the effects of specialisation turns magic into a swiss army knife if done well.
no "win-buttons" here, I mean the same kind of balancing you'd do with using different styles of martial arts.

>I'm wondering if the issue for your is that you can run out of big spells to spam and win?

here you go again neglecting the actual possibilities of mana systems.
"Big Spells" take long and cost alot.
And you keep pretending that all manapools have to regenerate in a rate that allows actual spamming.

here a cutout of our base calculations for making offensive spells:

Damage: Magic requirement x (Damage variable) +Staff bonus
Speed (amount of shots per turn): Magic stat / Magic requirement
Mana cost: =Magic requirement +(1/Speed x20%)

that means using the biggest spells makes your mana run out exponentialy quicker.

Mana pool size: Magic stat x3
Mana regeneration per turn: Magic stat /3

while mana does not regenerate while casting something.

>inb4 mages are totally useless
Staffs give a very high percentual bonus on damage with a flat upper limit, that means smaller spells are quite useful and more efficient in comparison to big ones, while bigger magic is necessary to fuck up heavy shielding and such.

I'm out

>>51907054
Isn't that still the justification?

>>51901029
Because mana is an inferior system.
We don't want casters to use all their mana on level 9 spells. We want the entire range of spells to be used.

>>51910365
one, i just mana pools allow for spamming. I din't say anything about regeneration, nor did i even mention regeneration as a concern because it's not really.

>here you go again neglecting the actual possibilities of mana systems. "Big Spells" take long and cost alot.

and you are neglecting to realize that mana pools and spell slots are basically the same thing, but spell slots have a way of making sure it's balanced and AWESOME to be a wizard. If i can never exhaust my rocket launcher, then i'm going to keep using it until i run out of rockets. Also I came in late and you've quoted my first post, just so you understand how much i'm bored at work. You've also misinterpreted (by the sounds of it willing) the care i've taken into knowing my shit, and the lack of str\aw men and purposefully mis read shit. You know the reason i keep using the word 'spam' because it means the same high powered spell can be cast over and over again. casting time be damned (Cuse that's a concern for spell slot too), material cost be damn (BECAUSE OF THE SAME THING), and specializations be damned (FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK YOU DUMB FOR EVEN MENTIONING THIS SHIT). Because spell slots literally use the same thing, but put a cap on how many times i can permanently turn villagers into frogs.

you're also not getting the point that the creators of the lore, game, and mechanics DO NOT WANT A MANA POOL SYSTEM. I PERSONALLY dislike mana pool systems in my table top. For the reasons i've stated. You can't convince me that i want to eat an apple when i keep saying i don't fucking eat fruit.

FUCK.

Also, you had to create a system of creating spells that are useful for a game that has spells created for you (that a lot are useful if you arn't a scrub), used in such a way that it's harder (read it requires you to actually think) to abuse, and generally the work is already done. I fucking hate people who make more work for themselves and then complain shit is too hard/takes too much work.

>>51910572
well, it's kinda weird that the kind of system abuse you mentioned never occured in the last five years of playing, but without having read the system as a whole it'd be pretty hard to understand for an outsider.

seeing that you are turning into a natriumchloride golem, i better stop wasting my time.

>>51910608
which means you had good players, not everyone is so lucky. the spell slots and levels also help with scaling and reduce what work the GM has to do in general.

I started salting up when you started being a dumbass and showing me a system i've already told i don't like, and for the reasons (that i've experienced, just because you haven't don't mean i haven't) i've stated literally in the system.

You also pointlessly mentioned things not present in the argument, blatantly misinformed yourself and blamed me for it.

Lets put it to bed with this; spectacular spells should not be mundane. Spell slots, and limited ones (which a mana pool is not) makes this hard coded into a magic system. Mana pools, unless handled basically like spell slots, don't do this and belongs in video games. They do not hard code into the system a way of giving the player enough power to be useful, but also forcing versatility into the nature of the classes that use magic.

In my opinion.

>>51910727
>which means you had good players, not everyone is so lucky
As a system designer, I always test out the extremes of gameplay elements systematicly and under different conditions. Using only the strongest spells possible fucked up every archetype of mage i tested, while those with balanced magic had much higher rates of survival against mixed encounters. Why I do this? because, against your assumption, my players always have that kind of powergamer and minmaxer in their party. Stop creating wrong facts.

>spectacular spells should not be mundane
why would they become mundane with the usage of mana? because they stop being special once you can use them multiple times?
Just set a Limit per something if it truly is something not supposed to be used on a regular basis.
You mentioned "spectacular" spells, which i would agree to set a limit f.e. summons and blessings.
But the previous posts simply mentioned "Big" and "Strong" spells, which i see hardly as something else than an upscaled small spell.

>You also pointlessly mentioned things not present in the argument
such as?

>showing me a system i've already told i don't like
>I wont try the broccoli, i know it will taste awful
By the way, I did not only post it for (you) to bitch about.

>belongs in video games
As much as hitpoints belong in video games?

>>51901029
Iunno I use the spellpoint rules in the DMG.

>>51901544
There are good resource pool management systems out there, just any generic FF nonsense mp pool is gay as fuck.

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>>51901363
Why is nobody bringing up the fact that wizard can just prepare 6 fireballs anyway?

>>51911326
>casting fireball
>not dropping evocation
Nice meme

>>51901029
I find slots simpler and easier to keep track of than mana

>>51901029
I like mana pools, which is why I used it to homebrew magic into a system, but that system used dice pool already, so it made sense to have it like so.

That being said, I don't believe D&D would work well with mana pools

D&D could work with mana, but balancing slots is easier, and serves the same "resource management" purpose equally well.

>>51901029
5e has an optional mana points system in the DMG.

>>51901363
Add spell fatigue. You cast it once, it's fine. But if you try to cast it again, it suddenly doubles in cost. then it doubles that number again if you go for a third time.

This would encourage diversity, while still allowing multiple uses of spells in a pinch.

Similarly, weaker spells that you would expect to get used multiple times like magic missile could be rewritten to include that they ignore the spell fatigue, letting them be used as many times as necessary without cost changing.

Mana is trash, you just focus on using the big, high level spells while dumping the low levels.

For God's sake, you post a Final Fantasy image, and to use that as an example, who the fuck uses Fire when you can just spam Firaga instead?

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>Mana is broken because all they'll do is spam the highest level spells all day
Then they run out quickly and fail to contribute until they get a rest. What's the problem with that tradeoff, unless you're giving them a 5 minute workday or not providing challenging enough encounters?

>>51912540
If you dont want to use a big variety of spells because there is no point to using anything but the big flashy ones, than that is a fixable problem regarding simple balancing.

If you have to force players to use a variety through internal mechanics rather than to reward them for making use of the big spectrum, you fuck up at game and campaign design.

>>51912540
>Weapons are trash, you just focus on the big, high level weapons while dumping the low levels.
>who the fuck uses a dagger when you can just use a +8 vorpal greatsword of dragonsbane instead?

gee I dunno maybe I don't want to be saddled with low level trash forever.

>>51913120
The difference is most, if not all daggers do not scale with level. Although it could be said that a dagger could serve some other utilitarian function.

because it's a shitty tabletop MMO

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>>51913222
So make spells not scale with level

>>51913444
For what reason? I stated what I did to point out that his comparison to martial weapons was bad.

>>51901029
Because it's pretty time consuming and tedious to keep track of it.

Although I'm still going to use it in my game so...

>>51913644
>For what reason?
For balance's sake?
I mean, spells don't scale with level in 5E. (Other than cantrips which are meant for "shit I'm out of everything and still want to contribute")

>>51901029

If memory serves, spellpoints are an optional rule in the DMG.

>>51914103
They were also infinitely more broken than spell slots and way more powerful than psionics because only damage spells were toned down and those were the spells that didn't need it. Again, compare GMW to Metaphysical Weapon - a level 20 spell point Wizard is casting GMW and getting a +5 weapon out of it for a paltry 7 spell points, while a Psion is spending 20 fucking points for the same effect, PLUS the Wizard gets to actually change their spell loadout on a day per day basis!

>>51913997
I'm not a fan with the obsessions of balance, and having entire circles of magic become useless is silly.

5e pact magic that warlock uses is the superior way, I would just change it from short to long rest and add more slots

>>51911326
Because that anon specified a level 5 Wizard, who can't.

Unless you want to get into scrolls or wands, which is a whole other can of worms.

Fun fact, though, if he did rely on wands (I can't remember the rules for scrolls) in 3.X the save DC would be trashed. They don't use the caster's stat or the creator's, they use the minimum casting stat required for the spell (13 for Fireball, so the save DC would be 14).

>>51914759
It wasn't nearly to that extent, but even in (proper) Dungeons and Dragons (circa. TSR) it was easier to make saves against magic items than against spells.

As someone actively working on an arcane spellcasting system for my game, I'd like to try to understand the two arguments going on here. If I'm getting it right-

Pro-Slots: Players must diversify their spell usage by preventing repeated use of the same spell and ensures lower-level spells continue to be used
Pro-Pool: Provides greater flexibility, more design-space

From my experience with psionics, I do think there's a flaw in the second point here. Namely that higher-level powers in Psionics simply aren't necessarily better than lower level ones. As others have pointed out, higher-level powers tend to increase in specificity or strangeness, not necessarily raw effectiveness. Due to the small number of powers that Psions learn, you pick them specifically so you won't have overlap between them, and they all are suitable to certain situations. As a result, you don't really have the issue of low-level spells no longer being used. That said, the first point is entirely valid- For a given task, the player will generally find the most cost-efficient means to do it, and then why bother with any other means? That is to say, Energy Missile is a great low-level Power as far as power-points in to damage out, with built-in flexibility for energy type. If you look at a blaster Psion vs a blaster Wizard, odds are you'll see the Wizard use a greater range of effects. I'd also like to note that one of the key differences between how these two systems are handled in 3.P is that Psion powers do not scale with Manifester Level; if you want the full scaled effect, you need to use the same number of PP as if you were casting your highest-level power, whereas the Wizard gets these scaling effects for free at the expense of having to deal with their limited selection.

>>51916227
(Cont)
(Sorry, I meant to say problem with the second point pro-slots)

I for one am firmly of the belief that neither system is design-wise superior to the other, but rather results in very different gameplay experiences and world implications. They are fundamentally different ball-games. As the spell-point system demonstrates, you can't simply slap mana-costs onto vancian spells and make them work. Psionic powers are designed with their system in mind. Where wizards have this super eclectic bag of tricks to pull from, Psions are more methodical individuals, using tried-and-true solutions to problems. Each power learned is a deliberate addition to their repertoire and must be balanced against all previous powers learned such that they all remain viable. This means that the Wizard will have a much greater breadth of abilities, but less reliability in terms of their use compared to the Psion who can consistently use the same powers to solve the same problems.

>>51902335
Almost right.

5e did it because 3e did it.

3e did it because 2e did it.

2e and B/X did it because they were survival horror games with goblins where you had to shepard specific resources.

>>51901669
>good luck being a lightning-themed mage based off Nicola Tesla at higher levels when zappy spells just stop showing up
Try being a snake-themed poison sorcerer, where your entire elemental selection consists of:
>Poison Spray
>Ray of Sickness
>Chromatic Orb
>Cloudkill
>somewhere ~1/8 chance on Prismatic Spray
>1 layer on Prismatic Wall
Only then will you know my suffering.

>>51914241

Are you responding to the right post? I was referring to 5E, being that it's the most recent edition of D&D