Are all demons evil without exemption?

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>>51886192
Evidently not.

Yes,

>>51886192
You can do no evil in capitalism as long as you use market mechanisms to achieve your goals.

>>51886192
Define Evil

In my settings they are the only things that the "always evil" applies exactly as stated.
Orcs, gnolls, kobolds, goblins, all have the opportunity for redemption. But the way I see it Evil is just an inextricable part of what they are. Especially in settings where things like good and evil are a quantifiable thing.

>>51886192
Evil? Yes.
evil? No.

>>51886192
That is the default assumption in many fantasy settings.

Sepends on the detting.

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>>51886192
Etrigan is a pretty good guy. He fights Nazis and regrets betraying King Authur

>>51886192
what makes a demon a demon? and a angel one?
those having feathery wings, pretty visages and harmonic voices work for the creator?
protecting his work and creations from harm?
Those having leathery skin, spiked tail, twisted horns and a smell of sulfur work on corrupting the world? destroying it piece by piece as in mochery for the lord?
is evil something you do or something you are?

>>51886192
Yes, because /tg/ is full of mouth-breathing dipshits who will pitch a fit if you dare suggest anything that demands even the slightest shred of critical thinking.

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'Good' and 'Evil' is but Heaven's propaganda. We prefer to think of it as service-to-self and service-to-other. The service-to-other side of things justifies their actions as forming the best possible world. But this is not so! Chained together by their unnatural desire to see others ahead of themselves, they can never allow themselves to be happy. If only they stopped sacrificing themselves, how easily they could be free.

This is what the higher demons in my 5e campaign will say if asked this question.

>>51886192
It's a classical example of "depends on the setting", but yes,in most cases all demons are evil by default.

/thread

>>51886565
Begone, Milton, thou scurrilous cur!

>>51886504
Sorry to hear about your mouth-breathing problem, maybe try some nasal strips?

>>51886572
>/threading your own post
>in Anno Domini 2017

Well it depends on what the setting says.
One of the real function of having evil things like orcs and goblins is that the players don't really have to worry about feeling bad for killing them, because they're evil, so you're technically doing something good by killing them. It's funneled down from Tolkien and Gygax being Catholic, so there's a recursive creator intent for them to be evil and made to be killed.

>>51886623
>latin text
>arabic numerals
>ANNO DOMINI MMXVII

if they aren't evil they aren't demons.
full stop.

>>51886192
The existence of succubi paladins say yes

>>51886736
>Succubi/Incubi
>Demons
nondenominational Fiends now, anon.

>>51886192
No, the word comes from Daemon, which meant any spirit with power.

They could be good, bad or just not care.

>>51886192
Considering they're the literal incarnations of evil, all signs point to yes. Unless you're playing the old and overdone Japanese "it's the angels who are actually evil!" cliché.

>>51886658
>VSINGSPACESINTEXT
>CECSIMVSMAXIMVS

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How about devils?

>all the redeemed or otherwise good demons in the setting are all succubi or otherwise basically human in appearance
if you do this then you're a pussy with no taste or class

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>>51886192
yes

>>51886923
>Redeemed Balor paladin who purges the wicked with holy flames but also runs a one-man soup kitchen that has made death by starvation a thing of the past in his local community

>>51886778
Anon, language evolves and changes. That the word it is based on means nature spirit doesn't mean that the current word, of which it is missing a letter, does not mean an evil entity usually hailing from an underworld of suffering and pain.

So yes, demons are evil. Its what defines them as demons. If they were daemons then they would just be nature spirits (or a subset of infernal entities in PF).

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>>51886192

The more aligned with Chaos or Law you are, the more likely you are to be Evil.

Some of the Demon Princes are Neutral Evil, as they take advantage of the planar conflicts in the Lower Planes in order to amass personal power. Indeed, some of the most powerful of these beings, like Urizen and Abraxas, content themselves with endless schemes and plots, delighting in manipulating mortals and their fellow Princes. It's said that Abraxas once impersonated a god of bounty, granting his followers the power to conjure food and water with a touch, just so that an entire nation of humans depended on his cult for survival. When he tore away his gifts one winter, countless starved -- enriching the Lord of Famine beyond measure. But even Abraxas cannot compare to the greater Lords of Chaos, like Malkira and Magna Mater.

Others are not so cruel. A lesser demon, such as a quasit or hezrou, might wander the Material Planes, seeking new experiences. They might serve summoners for a while to stave off boredom, or possess a host in order to try out mortal life. It's said that in the gambling palaces of Crisana or the bordellos of Adaryon, many patrons and employees are demons in disguise, seeking out ever greater thrills.

Regardless of type, all Demons under CR 10 must have an alignment within one step of Chaotic Evil. Demons with a CR of 11 or greater may be Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil. A Demon that changes its alignment beyond these constraints, through magic or choice, disappears in a puff of logic.

>>51886698
What should one call souls cast into an Abyss by divine forces and warped by the torments there into creatures of monstrous form and inhuman power, but some fraction of the escapees are merely traumatized or insane and not driven to outright evil? Because I had been thinking of calling them demons.

>>51887323
How about "thinly veiled justification to fuck succubi without falling"?

>>51886450
>what makes a demon a demon? and a angel one

Demons are usually unholy in nature, angels are mostly holy, but can be corrupted with unholy power, and demons can probably be purified with holy power, or become more "Humane" if a demon falls for a human.

Appearances vary with demons and angels.

>>51887323
call them anything you like, except demons.

Yes because a demons is just a term for a spirit which is malevolent. Nearly all spirit based mythologies have good, helpful spirits, and harmful and malevolent spirits.

Thats basically the difference. Question is would be better "Are all spirits evil?" = No. But all spirits which are evil, are labeled as demons.

Of course you can change things however you want for your own setting.

>>51886192
Yes, otherwise people wouldn't call them demons.

>>51887355
Not like there aren't already less ethically troublesome attractive spirit ladies like nymphs and so on anyway.

>>51887496
Most of them don't exist for the sole purpose of fucking you and nothing else. Even though that should make succubi absolutely horrible girlfriends compared to pretty much everything else yes, even 3DPD.

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>>51886923
>be nalfeshnee, a demon of considerable stature
>other demons betray and overthrow me by hurling me into a portal to Mount Celestia
>start to be incinerated in the holy water sea of Lunia
>get rescued by an angel who brings me to shelter and starts tending to my wounds
>become baffled by how an angel is actually showing compassion to a demon, openly question angel's motives
>angel says "This is a land of virtue, order, and good. All who come here deserve redemption, and you are no exemption. All it takes is beginning the climb up the sacred mountain."
>think about it
>many, many years later, now a reformed, Lawful Good nalfeshnee living in the sixth layer of Mount Celestia, Jovar
>ordained as a cleric of the cosmic forces of law and good
>visit Prime Material Plane on a long mission
>nobody out of the many people I meet ever believes me to be reformed despite the gleaming armor and holy symbols I wear
>encounter group of succubi dealing with a band of adventurers, succubi say, "Not all of us are evil. We're trying to redeem ourselves."
>cast Discern Lies, all of them are lying out the wazoo
>adventurers believe them anyway
Why does it have to be this way for a redeemed, ugly pig demon?

>>51886923
You know, the first response to this sort of post is usually to talk about redeeming the big, ugly ones.

But what about the tiny expendable grunts of the Abyss? The quasits and such? They'd have the most reason to try to escape, seeing how terrible life is for them there.

Yes.


A Demon that ceases to be evil ceases to be a demon.

>>51886192

Are all OP's faggots without exemption?

>>51886192
>pic

That looks more like a dragon to me.

>>51887088
>hijacks summoning circles to scare cultists
>usually they're just trying to summon imps or succubi
>after getting a balor most of them don't try again

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>>51887956

I remember this copypasta.

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/search/text/%22be%20nalfeshnee%22/

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/37050064/

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/37437128/#37450412

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/50727998/#50747994

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/51886192/#51887956

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El1qgBn8JHc

>>51886192
Yes.

>>51886192
They are eternal, undying "higher" beings who only existance is sadism and destruction.

Yeah I'd say they are pretty evil, unless they are a hot chick with a rocking set of titties, then she's redeemed.

>>51887560
Succubi don't exist for the sole purpose of fucking you, they exist for the sole purpose of being more durable doppelgangers with teleport and energy drain. Think "fleshlight mimic."

The actual fuckable kind of demon girl people think they want is probably actually a winged tiefling or cambion, which are actually "people" and can have individual personalities, agendas, etc., instead of "make everything bad forever."

They are also likely to resemble a demon girl during sex, while succubi will basically never have a reason to show off their true form.

>>51886192
semantic argument, as a demon is defined as being evil
if you see a balor helping a old lady cross the street, it is not a demon anymore
a demon ceases to be a demon the moment it is capable of good, and while they may retain the same appearance of a baphomet on fire, it may no longer be considered a demon

>>51887355
Why would you want to fuck one of the most used sluts in the galaxy? Gross.

>>51889845
If you know it's a succubus she's done her job wrong.

>>51889842
>a demon is defined as being evil
[citation needed]

>>51886192
de·mon
ˈdēmən/
noun
noun: demon; plural noun: demons

1.
an evil spirit or devil, especially one thought to possess a person or act as a tormentor in hell.
synonyms: devil, fiend, evil spirit; More
incubus, succubus
"the demons from hell"
antonyms: angel
a cruel, evil, or destructive person or thing.
"I was a little demon, I can tell you"
synonyms: monster, ogre, fiend, devil, brute, savage, beast, barbarian, animal
"the man was a demon"
antonyms: saint


golly gee OP i don't know

>>51889872
It's actually a pit fiend in disguise.

>>51886192
Depends on what the mythology is in which they operate and are described.
In generic D&D, they are essentially ill will with a physical embodiment and compulsions; chaos and evil with a narrative vector.

In storytelling in general, there's no reason they HAVE to work this way or be inherently evil, and in many mythoi there's no reason to presume malevolence.

>>51886192
Its your story, so tell it like you want it sister!
Its just generally seen as poor sport if you do and you will most likely be that guy.

>>51886192
Sure, whatever.

>>51886923
>>51887956

Reminds me of The Redemption Engine, a former apostate devil tells the tell of his redemption. An angel forgives him for killing him moments before he dies and this drives to doubt himself and his actions so much he abandons Hell and journeys to Heaven.

>>51886192
First, the setting matters. A lot.
In something like D&D, Demons are evil without exception, but they also may or may not be villainous. They are inherrently evil because of the nature of being a demon, but that doesn't mean you can't have a demon that is either functionally good (As a byproduct of their true goals), or even one that is geniunely kind. Nice=/=Good. Unlike a Goblin or an Orc, who are generally evil, but are still judged by their actions, a demon and evil are inseparable regardless of the demon's actions. A demon can live the life of a literal saint, and would still be evil by inherent nature of being. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't hang out with them, though it does mean that you are putting yourself on the hook for consorting with evil.
In other settings that do not have such cosmic forces of good and evil, a demon is only as evil as its actions.
It is worth noting that in some settings, demons (and possibly angels) are not wholely sentient, but unlike other unaligned creatures (animals) they are tied to good or evil, even if such cosmic forces do not exist.

>>51889842
>if you see a balor helping a old lady cross the street, it is not a demon anymore
>Implying the balor isn't walking the old lady to the pit

>>51886192
Celestial and Abyssal beings wear their souls on their sleeves, as it were. If an angel turns from the light, he is transmuted into something else. Similarly a demon or devil who abandons the dark is also changed.

So yes, all demons are evil without exception.

>>51886192

The trouble with evil is that it often ends up just being stupid. An intelligent being with a long-term view (like you'd get from being immortal) would, if a rational thinker, recognize that most of the things we call "good" are in the long term more beneficial for them.

Take something simple, like theft. What happens in a world where theft is allowed? Everyone expends time and resources just to preserve the status quo instead of making progress on things. Just a couple of decades later and the society that has rules against theft is in a better position. The same applies to most other crimes. People naturally want to protect themselves from harm, and traditions, institutions and etc. pop up to make that protection as effective and efficient as possible. A society of creatures stabbing each other in the back, be it with knives or cocks, is never going to get anything else done.

So, if you want a race of overtly evil beings, you have to give them a reason to keep being evil rather than switching to more effective good tactics. But then by giving them a reason to be evil you risk making them sympathetic. Like, if you're just forced to be evil by some cosmic force controlling your mind, then you're not really evil, are you?

Or, for another example, I created a setting whose demons are formed from the souls of the damned. Originally they just tumbled through the void and collected in the ruins of prototype worlds the creator made before True Creation, but as they piled up the heat and pressure of their collective sin began to tortuously grind and melt them against each other. No driving emotion was able to last long except hate, so the only souls able to half survive were the most hateful. They join together, devour weaker soul remnants, rebuild themselves from sheer concentrated soul-energy and eventually climb their way out of the pit as demons, bent on destroying the heavens that had damned them.

So evil, but with a sort of understandable grievance?

>>51886192
I think thats a vital part of what makes em demons

>>51893164
>implying the old lady isn't a vicious slaver, the Balor's prize project mortal

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>>51886192

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>>51886192

In D&D the idea of a non evil fiend is completely retarded. They were a horrible person in life and died unredeemed, but now that they've had all empathy and emotion tortured/cut out of them and are literally MADE out of evil they turn a new leaf?

Keep the contrary shit to drows, if you really have to. Preferably not.

>>51895425
The monster manual has rules in the appendex for handling good fiends

>>51895704

Uh huh, retarded.

>>51886192
Not without explanation. Demons are evil because they do evil things such as murdering people, stealing, seducing and fornicating with people and tempting others to do the same.

>>51887956
>great big demon
>can't cast a permanent polymorph on himself to alter his appearance to something more handsome

I cast Detect bullshit. Your story is pinging like a motherfucker

>>51893411
Not really.

If you've been in the market of business for a while, you understand that things such as honesty and hard work are overrated. All that matters is trying to deceive others in thinking that you have the perfect product for them, you lie out of your ass to try and sell it to them just to make a few bucks more when you already know that if you sold them a cheaper version it would've been just fine and all the same.

Many people I've met were so selfish they didn't consider lying for their own gain to be a bad thing.

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>>51886192
If they weren't evil, they'd turn back into angels.

Depends on the setting but traditionally yes. Demons are explicitly always evil in actual myth and religion. Some are neutral at best. Though never good.

>>51895425
>but now that they've had all empathy and emotion tortured/cut out of them and are literally MADE out of evil they turn a new leaf?
It all depends on the setting/system but what I'd like is a setting where demons are pure evil but can be redeemed. However, their redemption would mean they stop being demons and therefore stop existing. Simply put, their twisted and disturbed souls are put to rest.

>>51895771
Nalfeshnee have no such ability.

>>51896011
>Though never good.
Wasn't there this pope who was rumored to have become pope because his qt redeemed succubus gf helped him? Not even making this up, I actually remember reading something like this on wikipedia, the 100% reliable source for all information

Instead of having angels/demons, I just prefer 'Beyonders' who can be good, evil, or inbetween.

>>51887368
>become more "Humane"
Why,whats so holy about the human form?

Shit angels aren't even normally in human form, why should my demon waifu change!?

>>51886192
Depends on the setting.
Given in at least some settings the answer is "No" then the same must be true when speaking of all settings together.
Therefore, my answer is "No, not all demons are evil without exception."

>>51886192
I prefer to roll with the Hebrew concept of demons.

Demon is more of a job than anything, they run Hell and torture the sinners not because it brings them pleasure, but because they were tasked by the gods to do it. Likewise, they seduce people and lead them astray to test their faith and righteousness, another task from the deities. They're really just celestial employees much like the angels, only of a very different, much more sinister sort: whereas angels represent celestial benevolence, demons embody the wrath of gods. People fear and respect rather than hate and despise them. After all, evil, like good, originates solely from people's souls.

Of course, there's a lot of variety amongst their ranks, but the real dichotomy is not between good and evil demons, as they're really beyond petty mortal morality, but between those who go hard on sinners and those who go easy on them.

>>51886192
Depends on the setting.

>>51895771
>Implying the demon isn't already handsome

>>51896047
>whats so holy about the human form?

Humans are the middle ground between holy and unholy, and can utilize both powers.

Demons will always be demons, and angels will always be angels, but they will either be strengthened by or weakened by consorting/interacting with humans, or even purified or corrupted by humans.

Angels keep order, demons bring disorder, but humans can do both and cause utter chaos with demons and angels combined.

Extremely powerful demons and angels will probably always stay in their natural state, depending on the type and even hierarchy in angel and demon kind.

>>51893482
How is this the only mention of Hellboy?

I feel like demons have a corrupted sense of free will that restricts them to just evil alignments, similar to angels and good.

>>51886192
Literally every single fucking one.

Except for succubi, for some reason, as there are two examples in D&D, which is the planescape bitches, and somebitch who got converted an archon then shoved in a fucking jelly in an official D&D adventure.

demons are spirits, so they are good ones, evil ones and neither ones.

>>51886192
In my setting (because... well, you know the meme) Demons are formed whole-cloth from swirling vortexes of powerful negative emotions. They don't have any more free will than gravity, only instead of dropping apples on physicists they have an unending drive towards whatever sin caused them to come into being. If someone is filled with hate, they might accidentally create a demon of Wroth, who would utterly destroy everything around him like a giant, villainous version of the Hulk. If someone is consumed by lust, they might make a Demon of Lust, who would try to fill every second of their existence (not being natural creatures, they have no cause to sleep) having sex with anything and everything, consensual or not. And since most demons are quite hideous, and Lust Demons have a tendency to just not stop ever, it's usually not consensual.

The only demon that even behaves like it has free will is a Demon of Pride. But it's an illusion; the Demon is simply trying to conquer and control everything it possibly can, for no real reason at all. And once it has that control, it doesn't care an ouce what happens to what it owns, so long as it retains that control. Demons of Pride can be the downfall of kingdoms because they will /always/ be jealous of literally everyone and even most natural forces. Eventually, they start assassinating their own councilors and citizens for vaguely defined reasons, assuming they even deign to talk to you, which is incredibly unlikely. They're no more intelligent than a spider, which makes them by and far the most intellectual demons.

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In my homebrew setting, the word demon never referred to fiends in the first place. It's the ancient greek use of the word. There's only one demon left alive, and he's probably the nicest person left in the world.

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>>51886192
I go with this >>51886698 pretty much "they are demons because they are evil, not evil because they are demons." Demons can't be born, they have to be made from a corrupted spirit or mortal. A really old, vile warlord might eventually become a demonic ogre like creature. An sinister wizard might purposefully commit profane acts to for demonic might.
Likewise the angelic become what they are from acts of good. True saints are mortals on their way to divinity.

In terms of heavens and hells, I go with "like attracts like."
Good people go to places full of good people. These are generally swell places because everyone there is doing what they can to make it that way.
Evil people get to be with other evil people. These places tend to suck because the denizens. are constantly fucking each other over.

>>51886657
It's worth noting that Tolkien jumped around a bit on his stance for orcs. He fell out with the idea of a race being always evil and reworked their origins multiple times. There isn't really a canon state for orcs even within LotR but by Tolkien's judgement there is no reason they all have to be evil. Good orcs are somehow possible but highly unlikely do to shit living conditions or evil deals.

>>51886192
Half the Ars Goetia don't do anything malicious, they just oppose God. If there was no God to fight against they'd just be a bunch of sage spirits.

>>51895755
>murdering, stealing, seducing and fornicating with people
Sounds like a bard.

>>51901770
>Good orcs are somehow possible but highly unlikely do to shit living conditions or evil deals.
Consider the following: they're convinced they're a force of good and all who oppose Sauron are evil.

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>>51901800
The reason they don't do anything evil is because Ars Goetia describes how to disarm and bind them to your command. Fuck up the pentagram and you're gonna see how harmless they are.

>>51893482
Hellboy is the ideal good aligned Demon/Tiefling.

>>51901800
>Half the Ars Goetia don't do anything malicious
>they just oppose literally capital G Good -according to Platonistic interpretations of Christianity the very eidolon of Good- itself, the Good above which no Good exists and that encompasses all Good
Anon, I...

>>51886192
Yes, because if they weren't evil they wouldn't be demons.

>>51886192
They are in D&D. In fact, they are literally made of evil

>>51895704
Which edition?

>>51903042
>they are literally made of evil
is there some canon literal cluster of evil matter god in DnD?

>>51886192
Excluding the exceptions, yes, all demons are evil.

>>51905514
>all demons are evil except the ones that aren't evil

I guess the same could be said with angels.

>>51896032
Sylverster 2 is the pope with the succubus.

The myth stems from the fact he spent time with a more literal kind of black magic. The Arab scientific community.

>>51905742
Yes, exactly.

>>51886192

All demons are evil, but evil doesn't necessarily mean unfriendly or unhelpful.

What makes them evil is that they are WILLING to do awful things to accomplish their goals. It doesn't mean they have to do them given opportunity, or can't be convinced to use other methods. And it certainly doesn't mean they can't have allies or they have to screw you over specifically.

You can have a demon whose ultimate goal is to accumulate wealth and power and use them for his own nefarious ends, and his business dealings with your entire plane of existence are shadey but ultimately benign.

Invading your world and slaughtering all the mortals isn't 'evil', its stupid. Its a lot of work for very little payoff. There are easier ways to get souls, like corrupting a monarchy and creating a national system that reinforces evil agendas and morality to create a sustainable stream of evil aligned souls that come to you as they die.

>>51886874

Vanir is only a threat to local businesses.

>>51902398
But the orcs hate Sauron. They prefer being independent tribes who get to kill when they want and keep what they loot. Sauron forces them to face powerful foes and follow strict orders. They are mystically bound to him, compelled to come when he calls.

Orc society itself seems based around following whoever is the biggest and most cruel. I doubt they have much value for altruism.

A sense of righteousness isn't the only motivation. While I would agree that pretty much everyone sees themselves as the protagonist of their own story I don't think that equates to the good guy. I think for many, but not all, "evil" people moral rightness or wrongness just isn't a factor. They see good and evil as impractical or just nonexistent and act based off needs and desires without deep consideration for the lasting effects on others.
I think the orcs would probably be like this.

>>51886192
Demons are just evil angels, so yes

>>51904762
>>51895425

Can I get an answer to this? I'm genuinely curious.

>>51906533
>>51904762
Can't seem to find an actual entry for the (evil) or other alignment sub type in the 3.5e MM but the 3.5e SRD on the (evil) subtupe explicitly mentions
>A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes.
>Evil outsiders are also called fiends.
>Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype.
Explicitly acknowledging that there can be good fiends by RAW
Will have to dig through the rule books but at least by the 3.5 errata it's allowed

I wrote a whole book about non-evil fiends once.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Story:Holy_Opposites

Devil's are stronger

>>51886249
>I'm retarded
are we even talking about good and evil through moral absolutes here op? because if not you're just going to get a bunch of people from pol or sjw circles who think whatever theyre doing is completely morally sanctimonious.

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>>51886192
yes...
Kill THEM KILL THEM ALL!

>>51906381
>But the orcs hate Sauron. They prefer being independent tribes who get to kill when they want and keep what they loot.
[citation needed]

>>51886572
What about Asprin ?