Pathfinder General /pfg/

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>>51868198
>the Nation and Self Pacts are being fixed
>Self Pact
>"being fixed"

You better mean "Aether Channel and Aether Duelist are being fixed". You know, the thing that was ACTUALLY being a problem? I still don't understand why you were ever allowed to full attack with a weapon and just add half your level in d8's to it. The Pseudo Full BaB is cool and should stay, but the damage stacking of Aether Channel is retarded and never made any goddamn sense

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No offense but if combining Avowed and PoW is enough to break things then it might be that the Avowed was never working in the first place.

Regardless, with a new thread comes a new opportunity for me to shill my game for people who haven't already seen it. All the details are either in the description or in the forum links down below: https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/69913/slash-pfg-slash-dragonborn-game

>>51868301
>if combining Avowed and PoW is enough to break things
>2hu combines them both along with a few build mistakes and two extremely dodgy rules readings
Some of the path of war 1 disciplines also break damage math even without avowed anyway

>>51868275
Having a bunch of d8s on your weapon damage on full attack is 1 damage per 2 levels higher than a full attacking sneak attack rogue.

Having full BAB means that apart from the gaps where you have iteratives and they don't, you do maybe 10%~20% more damage more from increased accuracy.

Rogues are not known as overwhelming damage dealers.

The problem was always two extra attacks. And also how they interact with Overcharge modulation.

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>>51868342

To be fair, the build mistakes are correctable (something else in place of Precise Shot, remove the extraneous trait), and the two rules ambiguities were noted down for clarification in the text, so that is some progress.

Furthermore, I hope that they do actually place a sidebar explaining that the avowed was never meant to interact with the Path of War, despite the explicit mention of said Path of War.

>>51868301
>if combining two different 3rd-party companies' materials isn't bad, clearly they're bad

You know, as opposed to "3rd-party companies shouldn't be balancing around other people's shit". Psionics, Akasha, and Path of War should be balanced against each other and against Paizo; they should NOT be balanced against Spheres of X, Pactmaking, Spellburst Savants, or Avowed.

>>51868435
My mistake, the mocking greentext was meant to be
>if combining two different 3rd-party companies' materials isn't balanced, clearly they're bad

>>51868409
You pointed out valid ambiguities - not in the most direct way, but it was helpful.
I'm more mocking Dragonborn DM's lack of reading comprehension.

>>51868198
How does one role play greed as a character flaw without just trying to steal from PCs/NPCs or take an unfair cut of loot?

I don't want to be a dick to the other players and my character isn't so selfish as to be able to justify taking from others, but she's definitely got a compulsion to collect coins and gems 'cause she's a dragon. I'm thinking the best way to represent that flaw would be to just make her often unwilling to part with her own money once she does have it, frequently trying to barter down prices and perhaps not even being willing to buy something she can afford if she wouldn't still have enough money left over to be I mean sleep comfortably.

Friendly reminder that Wrath of the Raunchy and Taldor Ascendant are kill and will remain kill.

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>>51868301
>PoW + avowed breaks things
>then it must be avowed that is the problem
lol

>>51868455

>Covetous - Oracle Curse
>You find yourself drawn to the luster of wealthy living.
>You must wear fine non-magical clothing and jewelry worth at least 50 gp + 100 gp per character level you have beyond 1st. If you do not have sufficient wealth to purchase this additional equipment, you feel a strong desire (but are not compelled) to sell existing items or steal from others to obtain it. You are sickened whenever you do not meet this requirement; you are also sickened for 24 hours after anything worth 25 gp . your character level or more is taken from you against your will.

Ask the DM if you can make it a standard drawback.

Reposting from previous thread.

Then you use counter, you must declare it before i know if attack hit me or after?
I'm talking about maneuvers without special triggers (Make an Acrobatics check, using your opponent’s attack roll as the DC for example).
Preferably with quotes from Dreamscarred Press' books.
>>51867855
I prefer quotes from books.

What jobs and crafts make more sense for a slayer? Which ones makes more money? Which ones are more useful to the party?

>>51868406
>full attacking sneak attack rogue
which fucking end things

Also your "10%~20%" shows how much math you obviously didn't do.

>>51868462
I suppose that depends on which half is contributing more to the brokenness.

>>51868476
>What jobs and crafts make more sense for a slayer?

Hunter, Trapper, Thug?

>Which ones makes more money?

Surprisingly enough, Hunter or Trapper considering you'll be skinning white lions or rare fluffy mink in no time.

>Which ones are more useful to the party?

The one that fits with Survival.

>>51868456
Yeah, RIP taldor.

>gm shows up to answer one set of questions, fucks off for the highlands again forever

>>51868476

Taxidermist.

>>51868301
>people rightfully complain that several disciplines do too much goddamn damage instead of actually doing anything interesting
>if you combine those things with Avowed, it does too much goddamn damage

WHO. WOULD. HAVE. THOUGHT.
insert dancing dog of "PoW Errata when" here

>>51868406
>two extra attacks, which must be unarmed attacks
>overcharge modulation

Sneak Attacks require specific conditions, albeit ones that are easy enough to meet. Aether Channel requires you to... Well, it just requires you to hit the dude to get the damage, with no special conditions. In addition to getting to slap on tons of modulations to change how it works. Overcharge Modulation's damage being ridiculous with Aether Channel to replace the modulation status effect is just icing on the cake. Sure, the damage gets halved when TWF, but that just means the guy who uses a 2-handed weapon continues to be better.

Some of the loudest bitching was also about how TOTALLY WRONG it is for something to be Cha SAD, which is something enabled by Aether Duelist.

>>51868469
Reposting from previous thread:

See >>51867867

There is no firmer ruling than Elric's RAI in the books at the moment. Nothing concretely says one way or the other, but I recommend letting players know the attack roll total because being able to make decisions and judgements on probability vs value enhances tactical gameplay.

>>51868516
>people rightfully complain that several disciplines do too much goddamn damage when optimized in a way that negates their built in downsides
Hi, Broken Blade that is supposed to be with unarmed and natural weapons (most of whom will be at a d4-d8 max) but is twinked to be used with greatswords.

>>51868555

How many of Broken Blade's problems would get fixed if they made a note that said the discipline *only* works if you're using unarmed, natural or close weapons?

You know, like how Piercing Thunder only works with a Piercing weapon?

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>>51868497
Seems legit

>>51868456

But WotR has not even started, and the GM is in constant communication.

>>51868479
>Also your "10%~20%" shows how much math you obviously didn't do.

Feats not included, but:
A full BAB's attack bonus is between +1 and +5 higher than a 3/4 BAB.
Every +1 is a 5% higher chance to hit, because you need to roll 1 lower on a d20 to make it land.

Estimating play range of levels 5~14, therefore 10%~20%.

You don't use power attack because when you have all those d8s contingent on hitting, it's probably not worth sacrificing 5% hit chance per 3 extra damage.

>>51868588

Molthune Knights was in constant communication.

>>51868577
None, it would still deal too much damage. It might be LESS broken, but it would be broken nevertheless.

Are making and placing traps worth the effort?

>>51868577
The problem is that the general rule applied there is technically trumped by the specific feat that allows you to use a style with weapons you're not supposed to use it with.

If you're going to errata that I'd suggest making it so that you have to go "up a weight class" of weapon when taking that feat, as opposed to being able to go "down" to the point where a 2-handed weapon is being flurried like a fist.

>>51868577
Surprisingly few of them.
Weapon group adaptation is just the biggest offender.

Even if you're using unarmed, the level 5 combo of Bronze Knuckle + Steel Flurry Strike says hi.

>>51868592
>I don't have more than a highschool kvel understandimg of math

>>51868615
isn't that the 100 damage per round at level 5 combo?

Remember when powadrones tried to defend that as just fine?

>>51868634

There is literally nothing wrong with 100 damage at level 5.

>>51868620
It's 4am, show me the numbers and I'll say I'm wrong and go to bed.

>>51868641
There is a lot wrong with 100 damage at level 5.

>>51868634
Every other round, since you need to spend a round to refill your maneuvers so you can perform that one combination of boosts and strikes that gives you 100 damage in a round.

It's also the kind of autistic powergaming that would get most people sat down and talked to at any reasonable table.

>>51868555
You mean a sansetsukon.

>>51868658
>every other round
>anything surviving 100 damage at level 5

Good one.

>>51868658
A zealot or harbinger could spam that combo every round
but the problem isn't them, it's broken blade

>>51868634
>>51868641
>100 damage per round at level 5
>if you use this highly specific combo of a strike, boost, and stance
>and base your entire build around this
>and somehow always have those two maneuvers up despite only being able to use them every other round if you spend the next round to recover them
>"per round"
>this clearly means all of PoW is busted

>>51868658
>It's also the kind of autistic powergaming that would get most people sat down and talked to at any reasonable table.
This part is true, but the every other round thing is a pretty big deal.
Rocket tag already sucks, one hit ending anything every other round cranks it up well beyond the point of reason.
>>51868691
>anything surviving 100 damage at level 5
At that point the enemies should be using counters, or at the very least concealment.

Gas the twigs, Nirmathas is rightful Molthune clay.

>>51868702
>people defending broken blade, which even the PoW devs say is busted

I can't even tell who's countertrolling anymore.

So I talked before about new Unchained Fighter Archetypes, and have been doing some brewing along those lines. The newest archetype, the Crossbow Master can be viewed here:
>https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pUevSnzc65Xw2cx3ah7iL7s1BBx0bVeF8xKlL0uFIcQ/edit?usp=sharing

After feedback I have decided to drop the Mercenary Lord and the Pact Master. The Mercenary Lord will have some of its abilities rolled into Advanced Equipment Trainings, such as a Leadership ability that includes followers with certain item creation feats. The Pact Master was dropped due to simply not having a lot of design space. In order to give it something unique I would have had to essentially write an entirely new class. However I would like the talk about the current three offerings.

>Scofflaw
The Scofflaw is an intersection between the Unchained Fighter and the Unchained Rogue with its own unique ability called Scoundrel's Tricks. These are to a degree replacing Advanced Weapon Trainings and are swift action abilities activated when attacking someone that is under the same conditions that would normally qualify for Sneak Attack. Besides that they gain access to a list of Rogue Talents through Advanced Equipment Trainings and trade out half their Weapon Trainings at the same level they get Scoundrel Tricks rather than Advanced Weapon Trainings for a bit of Sneak Attack. They also reduce down from Heavy to Medium armor proficiency and lose Tower Shields, but gain two additional skill ranks per level to compensate.

(1/2)

>>51868702
Aside from you can do other shit like, swapping between zenith strikes with a gambit, or one of the easy gambits with a zenith strike because zenith strike can stand on its own fine, meaning you are still dropping shitloads of damage every round.

>>51868750
>The Gentleman
This is a working name for the archetype. The idea behind it is a gentlemanly fighter, someone at home in debate and the like. It takes inspiration from baritsu, an english martial arts focused around the weighted cane most famously seen in Sherlock Holmes. The Gentleman gains additional techniques and riding abilities to his combat maneuvers when using the weighted cane as well as a number of abilities that enhance his social skills. The former replace a number of Advanced Weapon Trainings and the latter become Advanced Equipment Trainings. As well they lose armor proficiency down to light as well as some changed Armor Training, but gain abilities such as Uncanny Dodge and Evasion as compensation.

>Duelist
This is something I have been thinking through. This would be a dexterity based fighter around using a weapon in one hand and a parrying dagger in the offhand. They would gain an ability to parry and deflect blows, scaling as they level and being spent like AoOs. They would gain bonuses if they strike the same target multiple rounds in a row, as well as classic bonuses to disarm, trip, etc. The parrying dagger would be the crux of this archetype as many of its abilities would be based on having the parrying dagger with the character. As well likely it would be replacing an advanced armor training in favor of a scaling shield bonus to ac when using a parrying dagger, as well as the parrying dagger's enhancement bonus counting towards said shield bonus to AC.

Does anyone have any thoughts on these possibly archetypes for the Unchained Fighter? Also possible better names for the last two, I am having a hard time coming up with names for them.

>>51868691
Obviously not going to happen, but like I said that's why it's powergaming of the worst caliber to the point that it makes you That Guy, at my table we call it Droga's Law after one of us built an alchemist that was leagues ahead of all of us, to the point where we all needed to be put on mob duty while her character killed the boss almost by herself.

>>51868700
What would people say needs to be changed/removed?

>>51868723
>I'm defending broken blade
>implying people aren't just pointing out that "100 damage PER ROUND" is bullshit

nobody is saying broken blade isn't busted, just that the bullshit edge case is not as bullshit as shitposters are crying about.

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I have returned with another avowed. I have double-checked for errors more thoroughly. This time, I am using only material from Paizo + Avowed 1 + Avowed 2. Could someone please go over this to check if I have committed any errors?

In any case, this is a 9th-level character with at-will invisibility, initiative +18, and the ability to destroy a CR 14 or 15 opponent in a single full attack. How well did I do in optimizing an avowed?

Level: 9th
Race: Tiefling (Small size, prehensile tail, scaled skin, underworld guide)
Class: Avowed (undead [lich] pact, balefire infusion)

Key Ability Score: Dexterity 30 = base 18 + racial 2 + level advancement 2 + enhancement 4 + size bonus for Tiny vermin 4 as a tiny botfly
Key Equipment: Belt of incredible dexterity +4 (16,000 gp), cracked pale green prism ioun stone (4,000 gp)

Key Traits:
Combat: Reactionary
Social: Student of Philosophy
Possibly another trait with a drawback

Feats (possibly with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at lower levels, retrained away later):
1st-level: Improved Initiative
3rd-level: Overcharge Modulation (lifeleech pulse)
5th-level: Weapon Focus (aether pulse)
7th-level: Extra Clause
9th-level: Steel's Betrayal

Shapes: Aether barrage ×4, aether retaliation, either aether cascade or aether swarm

Clauses:
Least: Hidden knowledge, silver tongue, lifeleech pulse, sightseer
Lesser: Insectile transformation, fade from sight, airspace control, unbind spell, fly on the wall

Initiative:
10 Dexterity modifier
+2 underworld guide
+2 Reactionary
+4 Improved Initiative
Total: +18, and probably with a surprise round from at-will invisibility

Aether Barrage Attacks:
2 attacks from BAB
1 attack from aether barrage's second purchase
Total Attacks: 3

Range: 100 feet + 90 feet from caster level = 190 feet

Aether Barrage Attack Bonus:
6 BAB
+10 Dexterity modifier
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Tiny size
+1 cracked pale green prism ioun stone
-6 Steel's Betrayal
Total: = +14/+14/+9, targets touch AC, negates all miss chances

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>>51868802

Aether Barrage Damage:
5d8 aether pulse
+10 Dexterity modifier
+3 tiefling avowed FCB
+12 Steel's Betrayal
Total: 5d8+25 (average 47.5), multiplied by 1.5 (average 71.25) due to balefire infusion, Empower Spell-Like Ability, and Overcharge Modulation

If all three attacks hit, they will deal an average of 213.75 damage.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1E2-s8weiulPoBQjdI05LBzOUToyoZIdSsLKxHAvf8F8/edit#gid=3
They will probably hit a CR 14 or 15's flat-footed touch AC, and they will probably tear through such a CR 14 or 15's hit points.

In the event that the target survives, the target will still take 27 damage at the start of the avowed's next turn due to the undead pact's 4th-level empowerment. The avowed is somewhat of a glass cannon, but the airspace control clause at least grants concealment.

The character's noncombat utility includes:
• Hidden knowledge: +6 bonus to all Knowledge checks, and using Knowledges untrained
• Silver tongue: +6 bonus to all Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks
• Sightseer: See perfectly in any darkness out to any range, and see invisibility
• Fade from sight: At-will invisibility
• Unbind spell: At-will dispel magic
• Fly on the Wall: At-will Fine-sized scout with very high Stealth bonus and shared senses

Not bad for a 9th-level character.

What errors did I commit this time?

>>51868516
Self Pact is a different issue, but I don't see base Avowed's SAD as a problem.

Making your attacks and clause DCs the same stat is one feat.
Making your clause DCs and HP/FORT the same stat is two feats and a trait.

The former is cheap and dippable, the latter is pricey - often worth it, but no small cost and one many builds can't afford.

>>51868658
>It's also the kind of autistic powergaming that would get most people sat down and talked to at any reasonable table.
It's hardly optimising to take max strength, a decent weapon (sanketsuon works), one stance, two maneuvers and shit out tons of damage.

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>>51868811

I suppose there is also this for noncombat utility:

>Consume Spirit (8th): As a full-round action, you can absorb a psychic imprint left in the corpse or remains of a creature. If you do, you gain a flash of memory as you absorb part of their spirit. This memory (or group of memories), determined by the GM, is almost always something personally relevant to you or your goals, if such a memory exists. If the creature is completely irrelevant to you, you instead absorb a memory of grave importance to the now-dead creature. You can only use this ability once for any given creature’s remains.

Thus, immediately after this bug-avowed of ours demolishes the CR 14 or 15 monster in one turn, the insect can gather some intel from the corpse.

Is there anything else that works like Magical Knack in 1pp?

>>51868592
>Every +1 is a 5% higher chance to hit
5% flat chance to hit. If you hit the target on 11, +5 tohit is +50% dpr on first iterative. If you hit on 6 with your second iterative, +5 tohit is +100% dpr to it.

>>51868817
>I don't see base Avowed's SAD as a problem.
>build in this very thread is a level 9 one turn killing a CR 14/15 with a huge success rate

>>51868811
Kys senpai

>>51868811
>If all three attacks hit

Because of Steel's Betrayal, your attack bonuses on this will be +8/+8/+3

Even assuming flat footed touch AC of 10, your damage is more like (19/20 + 19/20 + 13/20 ) x 71.25 which is closer to 181 damage.
So... you can take out a CR13.

Which is still pretty good, but a bit more accurate.

>>51868811
>an average of 213.75 damage
20% of paizo-only level 10 summoner, not bad.

>>51868885
>This build doesn't have anything at all to do with SAD, it's ignored cha for just pumping dex purely for the sake of getting its initiative and ranged attack rolls high, which anything can do

Well done.

>>51868979
Link build, I'm curious.

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>>51868975

You will note that I have already included Steel's Betrayal in the calculations.

Aether Barrage Attack Bonus:
6 BAB
+10 Dexterity modifier
+1 Weapon Focus
+2 Tiny size
+1 cracked pale green prism ioun stone
-6 Steel's Betrayal
Total: = +14/+14/+9, targets touch AC, negates all miss chances

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Firs impressions are important, but I am shit at them so here's my 3rd impression

https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/70013/pathfinder-reign-of-winter

Come for the waifus, stay for the waifus and maybe the other players, who knows.

>>51869000
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mhpi&page=5?The-DPR-Summer-Olympics-or-What-are-we#227

>>51868880
You are entirely right, it is time for me to go to bed.

>>51869006

What is the Point Buy?

>>51869024
20

>>51868885
That's not really a problem with it being SAD - the only ability score RELEVANT there is Charisma.

>>51869011
Neat

>>51868979
>>51869011
That's not against a CR 14/15. Put it up against higher ACs and the summoner's damage goes down.

Mithral brings down arcane spell failure, so does darkleaf. Do these stack?

Say you have a chain mail (ASF 20%), made of mithral and darkleaf. Is it a 0% arcane spell failure armor? Is there an enchantment to further reduce it?
The trait solution and giving up swift actions is bullshit.

>>51869060
I don't think you can have armor made of more than one special material, at least not made significantly enough of multiple materials so as to have the mechanical effects of both.

>>51868885
>that build doesn't use any of the SAD-enabling feats/traits/whatever
>is a bundle of shit that makes assumptions out the ass and is just a wad of numbers

if we're pulling shit out of our ass anyway, then I'm going to say that everything this avowed faces has an item of Constant Scales of Deflection.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/scales-of-deflection/

>>51869060
Pretty sure you can't make something out of two special materials.

>>51869060
Aside from you can't make it out of two special materials.

>Items not primarily constructed of leather, fur, or hide are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of darkleaf cloth.
>Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.)

Is Cornugon Smash worth it even for characters with very low charisma?

>>51869106
If you have intimidating prowess and high STR then yes

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>>51869085

>mfw Adamantine longsword with lacquered darkwood grip

>>51869106
You can change intimidate from Cha to Int or Str last time I checked.

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>>51869095

What are the incorrect assumptions made in constructing this build?

Also, an item of constant Scales of Deflection would not function for the same reason that an item of constant True Strike would not function: the effect would be discharged each time.

>>51869106
Spending anything at all on Intimidate is worthless unless you actually have useful riders on it like the potential to escalate to Frighten, or Shatter Defenses. "Maybe inflicting Shaken" is not worth dicks.

>>51869006
>tfw when /pfg/ is planning a Reign of Winter campaign and you're about to play your first session of a different Reign of Winter game in a couple hours

I still don't know whether it'll be extra fun because we can compare notes on how our respective campaigns are going and have lots of storytime OR if we'll have to just keep quiet to avoid spoiling things for each other and shit.

>>51869060
As far as I know, there's no 1PP enchantment for reducing ASF, but 3.5 had an enchantment called Twilight that reduced ASF by 10%, stacking with mithral's ASF reduction, and cost a +1 bonus.

http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/twilight

>>51869147
>/pfg/ is planning

Considering it's voice, it's not really a /pfg/ game. It's more of just fishing for the few people that don't mind voice.

>>51869147
You assume that people from /pfg/ join my game? Thank you for the vote of confidence, but I am doing this out of desperation. Besides, it's mostly 1pp unless somebody who tries to get in or does get in manages to turn my head on the issue.

>>51869006
How am I supposed to waifu if there's no lewds.

>>51868516
And isn't that damage only ridiculous in the case of a gestalt, where literally two classes whose primary ability is "add this to your hits" are being stacked right up?

>>51869100
>>51869097
>>51869085
Pity. Doesn't chain mail have some sort of undershirt so as to not chafe the skin?

I read that reducing armor check penalties also works somehow.

>>51869147
That would be neat.

>>51869161

Hey, plenty of us like voice!

>>51869171
>How am I supposed to waifu if there's no lewds.

You do it the old fashioned way, using voice.

I've played plenty of voiced campaigns where my character had a waifu, it's not really that weird unless you make it weird.

No seriously, I know there's the anxiety over saying those sorts of things to other people, but odds are they don't care cuz they've said the same thing before. Being goofy romantic is actually kind of a plus in voiced.

>>51868602
Quite true. Things only got iffy on the day of session 1, when suddenly the GM had been retroactively sick all week and had to "keep it short", before disappearing after talking a short intro permanently.

Right up until the last minute the GM had been in constant communication

Should I go with greatswords or polearms? Do they share feats/skill/etc?

>>51869146
Honestly, I wish there were more ways to boost the shaken penalty instead of improving the condition to frightened. But the only thing I've seen that does that is one of the Cavalier orders, Cockatrice IIRC. I guess there is Shattered Defenses, but if you're already good at hitting things and you don't have sneak attack that's not actually worth a lot.

>>51868409
>Furthermore, I hope that they do actually place a sidebar explaining that the avowed was never meant to interact with the Path of War, despite the explicit mention of said Path of War.
Stop being so fucking retarded, they don't need to do any such thing. The majority of players aren't fucking autists and so understand things like "3pp is never balanced with other 3pp from different publishers in mind".

>>51869201
I mean the GM isn't using a throw away account, so that might be a good sign?

>>51869208

Which one fits the character concept more? 2d6 ain't too different from 1d10.

>>51868588
Hell, the DM is a player in another campaign, you can be sure I'd give him shit for WotR falling through.

>>51869171
You are allowed to hold hands if that's what you mean.

>>51869161
I've been meaning to make it voice and text down a week or so (meaning if you want to communicate through text you can do that, but if people want to voice then they can voice [mainly because I believe that people can be fast writers] with me doing voice mostly because speaking while DMing is faster) down like a week or so to see if that attracts more people.

>>51869208
They don't share feats and there's more feats specifcally for polearms thatn greatswords (or at least archetypes) unless you intend to take the Divine Fighting Style for the greatsword

>>51869221
I houserule you can choose whether to increase duration OR the actual penalty imposed by the condition for every 5 you exceed by.

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>>51869130
I can only be so hard

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>>51869223

>"3pp is never balanced with other 3pp from different publishers in mind"

The Avowed 1 PDF is sending mixed message if it lays out explicit support for Path of War, Ultimate Psionics, and Bloodforge, yet is most definitely not balanced with Path of War or Ultimate Psionics in mind.

A sidebar could clear up this expectation.

>>51869223
If you don't account for every exception, the computers that play this game will break, though! Don't break computer!

>>51869258
>>51869233

How do they perform in terms of combat effectiveness?

>>51869265
Do you also think that steelforge's psi-sphere stave is sending the same mixed message?

>>51869262
Seems reasonable unless somebody is using Enforcer.

>>51869095
Don't look at it like that. Look at it as an exercise in seeing what the maximum potential the class can offer is in terms of damage.

In other words; the GRAND majority of characters built will quite simply be well below that; likely about 2/3, 3/4 if heavily optimized, due to things as simple as not wanting to play a tiny-sized tiefling.

So you look at it and go "it can't reasonably hope to go higher than this. That is the ceiling. No worse than other equally overoptimized setups. In other words; Avowed generally do much less than this, which means there's little to worry about.

>>51869265
Or they were clearing up some interactions because most of their audience uses PoW and psionics you idiot.

>>51869282
Polearms are good if your biggest concern is yours and your party's survival with added manuever bonuses and reach for most of them while greatsword is probably the highest damage martial weapon you can have with the right feats.

>>51869231
maybe, or maybe it's not the second or third game he's thrown

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>TFW you will never play an oread tortured crusader paladin
>TFW he will never be a grizzled veteran of a lost crusade
>TFW he will not keep striving to reignite the dying embers of light in a world filled with darkness

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>>51869284

I would think so; that specific book of Steelforge is offering support to Spheres of Power that way.

>>51869313

If that is the case, then it would still be helpful to have such a sidebar, if most of their audience is keen on combining the avowed with the Path of War.

>>51869317
I mean if they flake out, hopefully they get the punt from the games they are in.

>>51869338
Senpai, pls

kys

>>51869338
>it's an I'm autistic so everyone is autistic and needs autistic warnings episode
Break me out of this hell

>>51869342
Their GMs and the other players might not even know or care, and why would they?

As assholes around the country like to say: "fuck them, I got mine"

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>>51869304
I know this. You know this. Autists on /pfg/ don't fucking think like that and 2hu doesn't present it like that. They see the hyperoptimized build and just assume "this is how it's supposed to be played and how it SHOULD be built" and inflate expectations beyond reasonable.

How commonly is "Use Magic Device" used?

>>51869366
Because they're playing with other people from /pfg/ who've applied to the game?

Granted their value as a player probably supersedes flaking on a game, but one can hope.

How do I get Intelligence to AC?

>>51869411
Edgelord Harbinger

>>51869411
What class, and what content is available senpai. If 1pp only, you can take the Duelist prestige class, or the Kensai archetype for Magus.

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>>51869304

>Look at it as an exercise in seeing what the maximum potential the class can offer is in terms of damage.

What I am actually trying to do is point out that Overcharge Modulation is far too strong, especially with shapes that can have built-in damage bonuses, such as Aether Barrage.

Overcharge Modulation creates an obnoxiously large increase in damage, multiplying the output by 1.5. That is ludicrous.

>>51869381
There's always going to be SOME fringe combination in the boonies behind a shed under a couch between the cushions that's going to be vastly superior. That's tolerable. Far more important for the class' floor to be solid and helpful than to spend all our time trying to hammer out the occasional bonsai twigs that stick out. Stuff like 2hu did shows us "it goes roughly this far and no further in the deepest corners".

And, honestly speaking there's no way I'm not one of those extreme assburgers, and even I can tell that's optimization well beyond what most people would ever bother with.

>>51869411
Duelist, Kensai, Dervish Defender Warder. I think there's a beguiler option or two that offers this, too.

>>51869201
Are all pfg games fated to fail?

>>51869385
As often as you want to use a magic device.

>>51869463

As bad as any other game.

>>51869385
My PC in the last game I played used it every hour on the hour to emulate a CG alignment so the plot device artifact sword wouldn't give him negative levels for being of a different alignment. He also used it for a lot of scrolls, but that was towards the high levels where it wasn't nothing to shell out money to buy or craft a dozen scrolls of some 1st and 2nd level spells.

The players in the game I run now only use UMD for a wand of CLW ( which they use frequently) but I know one player wants to get more wands later on for other stuff. I plan to give him a special artifact wand later on in the campaign that boosts the caster level you cast out of the wand with if your UMD check is really high, that only has 10 charges but they recharge every day, and it has multiple spells in it, some of which change randomly from day to day.

I mean, that's basically a staff, not a wand. But it'll still be shaped like a wand, because he likes wands.

>>51869411
Student of War, two levels.

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>>51869450

How is this optimization beyond the norm, exactly? This uses only Paizo + Avowed 1 + Avowed 2 material, and most of the options selected are from the Avowed 1 document.

If anything, much of the fault can be laid firmly upon Overcharge Modulation.

What about the celestial armor (chainmail) It seems to already take off 15% the ASF, down to 15% (for the full plate version, down to 20, from 35). So if it's Mithral, it would be 5%, still not 0, but would this be the best you can get?

Could you make celestial armor out of a chain shirt?

>>51869437
>>51869495
>What I am actually trying to do is point out that Overcharge Modulation is far too strong, especially with shapes that can have built-in damage bonuses, such as Aether Barrage.

Then why didn't you just say so to begin with? I'm pretty sure NOBODY would argue with you if you had just said "Overcharge Modulation is the biggest problem" in your first line and then went "if you want to check my math, here's a build pastebin to look over". You fail to get to the point of your wall-of-text build posts every time and still wonder why people are annoyed with you.
Overcharge Modulation should probably be limited to 1 attack per round, to keep it viable for blasting shapes.

>>51869512
Just cast Mage Armor already. If you really need something, Djezet Skin is your best friend.

>>51869529

Personally I would've much rather had Overcharge Modulation as Maximized rather than Empowered.

>>51869538
Or just use still spell for everything with somatic components.

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>>51869437
I agree with you, though with some 'clauses' to the agreement, you might say.

Certainly overcharge modulation is too large a bonus; but it also suffers from being a necessary tax feats to the current non-weapon shapes. Trouble at both ends, you can say.

Now, your damage bonuses are really taking it to the extreme, so under most circumstances it's not going to get anywhere close to that. And I say this as someone who adores 'blasting' in all its forms, especially the beam-like ones. Having +10 dex at level 9 for example is possible, yes, as you've shown, but extremely unlikely for most combinations/builds/characters. Under most circumstances, it's actually currently a necessary purchase in order to keep up.

As that's the very definition of a tax-feat, and one that even removes some of the fun/flavor/mechanical-aspects of the class to boot (modulation secondary effects being turned off), this is certainly a problem.

So I think what we have here is an opportunity to restrict and integrate the effects of overcharge modulation, so that the non-weapon shapes that required it for viability can get better built-in scaling.

Still though; I do believe you would have an easy time producing similar damage numbers with numerous other classes (a yes or no will suffice, I hold no distrust in your ability to crunch), correct? If so, then this statistical outlier's actual output is not the issue; only the overwhelming effect and necessity of a single feat upon a class.

>>51868802
You might need to swap Weapon Focus for Silent Recitation, since you can't supply the verbal component for Aether Pulse when under Vermin Shape.

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>>51869529

I will do so next time, then. For example, here is a much lower-level, 3rd-level avowed build using only Paizo + Avowed 1 + Avowed 2. This, again, shows us how effective Overcharge Modulation is.

Level: 3rd
Race: Human
Class: Avowed (undead [lich] pact, balefire infusion, aether blow)

Key Ability Score: Dexterity 20 = base 18 + racial 2

Key Traits:
Combat: Reactionary
Social: Student of Philosophy
Possibly another trait with a drawback

Feats (possibly with Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at lower levels, retrained away later):
Human: Point Blank Shot
1st-level: Precise Shot
3rd-level: Overcharge Modulation (lifeleech pulse)

Shapes: Aether barrage ×3

Lesser Clauses: Hidden knowledge, sightseer, lifeleech pulse

Initiative:
5 Dexterity modifier
+2 Reactionary
Total: +7

Aether Barrage Attacks:
1 attack from BAB
1 attack from aether barrage's second purchase
Total Attacks: 2

Range: 100 feet + 30 feet from caster level = 130 feet

Aether Barrage Attack Bonus:
2 BAB
+5 Dexterity modifier
Total: +7/+7, targets touch AC

Aether Barrage Damage:
2d8 aether pulse
+5 Dexterity modifier
Total: 2d8+5 (average 14), multiplied by 1.5 (average 21) due to balefire infusion, Empower Spell-Like Ability, and Overcharge Modulation

Two 130-foot-range attacks at a +7 bonus, targeting touch AC and dealing 21 damage each (for a total of 42 if they both hit), is fairly impressive for a 3rd-level character.

The character's noncombat utility includes:
• Hidden knowledge: +6 bonus to all Knowledge checks, and using Knowledges untrained
• Sightseer: See perfectly in any darkness out to any range, and see invisibility

For comparison, a 3rd-level, raging Strength 24, greatsword-swinging barbarian would have an attack bonus of 3 BAB + 7 Strength modifier + 1 masterwork - 1 Power Attack = +10 vs. normal AC (not much worse than +7 vs. touch AC) with a 19-20 critical threat range, but deal only 2d6+13 (average 20) damage.

Overcharge Modulation needs to change.

What creatures are affected by silver weapons? What creatures are affected by cold iron ones?
Is it worth it to carry one of these?

>>51869557
Which is most of the important stuff.

>>51869570

Poor Megaman, he doesn't realize Samus is getting him flustered so his CPU winds up and she can snuggle up to the heat like a cat.

>>51869584
>I will do so next time, then.
>another giant wall of text instead of pastebin
2hu plz

>>51869653
It was only one post this time. Baby steps.

>>51869643
No I'm pretty sure she's going to organically and adaptively interface with his mechanical parts the way only she can. She's canonically gifted at this somehow.

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>>51869570

>Having +10 dex at level 9 for example is possible, yes, as you've shown, but extremely unlikely for most combinations/builds/characters.
How is this the case? I have not even purchased a Dexterity +6 item for the character.
Dexterity 26 by 8th- or 9th-level is not that difficult to attain, and from there, it is simply a matter of using a certain clause (and all clauses are at-will) to transform into a giant botfly.

>So I think what we have here is an opportunity to restrict and integrate the effects of overcharge modulation, so that the non-weapon shapes that required it for viability can get better built-in scaling.
Remove Overcharge Modulation entirely, and adjust the math of all of the shapes accordingly.

>Still though; I do believe you would have an easy time producing similar damage numbers with numerous other classes
With various third-party classes, yes. In a Paizo-only environment, I am not too familiar with raw damage-dealers.

>>51869643

>The tough, lovely party paladin will never snuggle up with you

Life is suffering.

>>51869697

>she's going to organically and adaptively interface with his mechanical parts the way only she can.

You mean she's going to shoot him?

>>51869584
I'm curious 2hu, as a personal question, is there any reason you didn't examine the avowed earlier during the past 3 months?

And what was it that suddenly spurred you into changing that?

>>51869495
Because of the full combination. Everything's put together in favor of that particular output.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying it's impossible (obviously it isn't you just put it together), but I say this makes it a fringe case because it's using a specific race, specific pact within the specific class and specific combination of clauses and pulse shapes. In other words, there's probably not much left at all that you could change to further improve it; right? I'm sure there's one or two little bits, but the grand majority of the options have already been set.

This makes the likelihood of this combination being something in one's party a statistical outlier when, say, combined to "oh crap bob picked up a longbow and grabbed manyshot and deadly aim".

Most players/characters will not want to be that entire exact specific combination, even if it's more effective. Themes, likes/dislikes, even particular attractions (or worse yet fetishes sometimes) will all play a part in making a character, but these mean one is in the lower end of the range as a result.

Again though; this is not to discredit your work; rather I'm trying to explain why seeing your numbers and how 'involved' that build is to attain that output makes some of us go "oh, okay, I guess we didn't have to worry then!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z61jwgp7oPE

Folks, I want to play a Haunt Channeler Occultist based off of the guy in this music video!

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On another note regarding the avowed, I must say that modulations that allow spell resistance can often do more harm to an aether pulse than good.

By allowing an aether pulse to be spell-resisted (a terrible prospect against many outsiders, for example), the modulation has sabotaged the character.

Perhaps this is just me, but the spell resistance could stand to apply only to the modulation itself, not the entire aether pulse.

Have I missed something concerning the rules for modulations and spell resistance?

>>51869730

I simply decided to have a look at the avowed after having dismissed it for being Charisma-based much earlier.

>>51869733

>it's using a specific race
Any race that can have +2 Dexterity will do, although the +3 profane damage from the tiefling FCB will be missed.

>specific pact
The undead (lich) pact is not crucial to the build. It is simply nice to have, but hardly essential.

>specific combination of clauses
The only essential clauses here are a single modulation and Insectile Transformation. Everything else is optional.

>pulse shapes
The only essential purchases here are four iterations of Aether Barrage.

>In other words, there's probably not much left at all that you could change to further improve it; right?
Of course, but a large portion of the build is comprised of non-essential choices, such as all but two of the clauses. Even the Extra Clause feat is there more for quality of life than anything.

>This makes the likelihood of this combination being something in one's party a statistical outlier
Hardly, again, given that much of the build's chosen options are non-essential.

The main antagonist of Ironfang Invasion is supposed to be a Hobgoblin Swashbuckler.

How would you build one at 20 to make the shitty class a relevant threat? 1pp, no multi-classing, no archetype.

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>>51869701
Possible I know, but again; people tend not to maximize quite that much. You could say their attention spans are shorter and there's so many other shiny things to play with...

Someone focusing on Dex will probably grab a 16, making it 18 with their race. They'll take another +2 as they level, likely have a +2 belt as well, and perhaps another source of +2 somewhere somehow; whether from transformations or whatnot. But that puts them at 24. 26 is doable as well, but I don't see it often in games; not quite that early (you'll see 26 around 12th though for sure).

So that's a +7/+8; a good 4-6 less points of dex than a +10. Given the chance to play the fly, most people are going to think "screw this" despite the obvious mechanical advantage here. Maybe a pseudodragon or something they *like*.

Taste and preferences are a huge factor; the great bulk of optimization is generally done *after* selecting the thing one cares about.

>>51869841
Minions.

>>51869778
Why bother forcing a full, exact "minmaxed" build into people's faces if more than half of it is non-essential. Like I said, posting a full build should stay in pastebins, and you need to actually say WHAT you think the problem is rather than just "look at this build, it does this number, that's very broken".

Fucking buildposter was better than you at this.

>>51869850
This. I would bet you the final villain is going to have a lot of powerful minions.

>>51869778
Could the non-essential choices have been made so as to increase power, then?

You may be correct in regards to how much of an outlier or easily-attained plateau it is, though there does remain the issue of "is this as high as it goes".

>>51869841
What level of character is he supposed to pose a challenge to?

>>51869841
umm...Do you mean a threat to other level 20 characters, or to like level 13 characters?

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>>51869900

>Ironfang main antagonist
>He

>>51869900
The estimate is a party of four 18s.

>>51869858
I believe the intent was to show that there was still plenty of utility available despite the damage output.

However, it's true that it would avoid misunderstandings if those were formatted differently or even simply left out. Like, if you had 3 feats, 2 clauses, and two trait slots didn't matter in attaining the output you did, it's likely better to show what got you the problematic numbers (and pointing that out first before the examples), and concluding with something akin to "all this left me with 3 feats, the clauses at level X and Y, and 1 (or two with drawbacks) trait slots untouched, as well as X amount of GPs from the WBL"

Might help avoid misunderstandings?

>>51869916
is it an actual female?

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>>51869846

If their class only needs Dexterity, then a pre-racial Dexterity 18 is not out of the question. Likewise, spending 16,000 gp on +4 Dexterity by 8th- or 9th-level is only natural.

>>51869858
>>51869870

The non-essential builds are present because, if they were not, then people would complain in one of two ways:

A. Remarking about an "incomplete" build.
B. Deriding the build for being capable in combat and only combat, when in fact, many of the build's non-essential options provide significant noncombat utility.

>Could the non-essential choices have been made so as to increase power, then?
Yes, but only in marginal fashions.

>though there does remain the issue of "is this as high as it goes".
It can go higher, but only marginally so, and at the cost of noncombat utility.

How useful is to blind an opponent?

>>51869916
Oh, then at least the character's unquestionable incompetence can be considered cute.

I made a trade in blood and forgot about it a couple weeks later, I've gone back on the deal that I made
I've had to made two will checks, both of which I've pasted, how fucked am I?

>>51869933
Very unless the only thing they're doing is using AoE attacks AND they have good enough hearing to know where to put them.

>>51869031
Sounds reasonable, I'll take a look.

>>51869933
Depends on the opponent. If it's something like an archer, being blinded is crippling. If it's a caster with AoE spells prepared, it might not make much difference at all.

>>51869932
Not out of the question, but still not all that likely.
The player is likely going to prefer maybe to take their CON, so they don't croak from a stiff breeze (correct or not many do in fact do this for that reason) and INT to 12 each and maybe distribute the points elsewhere, resulting in a slightly more rounded character.
As for the second part: I agree with trying to avoid "but that's a one-trick pony make a real character"; we've seen those cries on here before anyways.

It would be good then as >>51869922 points out to keep the problematic part and the rest of the build separated, there seemed to be confusion/assumptions that every single one of those choices was needed for that particular result earlier. A quick explanation of 'what's left' after the actual part you needed to argue/show originally would help avoid the confusion while both providing evidence that this is not the complete character, *AND* allowing people to gauge what it might be able to creep to should it decide to screw all other factors and blindly pursue firepower.

>>51869932
People won't remark about an incomplete build.

Also, just list build resources that weren't utilized, like that other anon said. That'd be fine.

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Suppose Overcharge Modulation simply did not exist, however. What would the 3rd-level build above look like instead? It would show that the extra attacks from certain shapes are also a problematic source of damage.

Level: 3rd
Race: Tiefling (Small size, prehensile tail, scaled skin, underworld guide)
Class: Avowed (undead [lich] pact, balefire infusion, aether blow)

Key Ability Score: Dexterity 20 = base 18 + 2 racial

Key Traits:
Combat: Reactionary
Social: Student of Philosophy
Possibly another trait with a drawback

Feats:
1st-level: Point Blank Shot
Avowed: Precise Shot
3rd-level: Improved Initiative

Shapes: Aether barrage ×3

Lesser Clauses: Hidden knowledge, silver tongue, lifeleech pulse

Initiative:
5 Dexterity modifier
+2 underworld guide
+2 Reactionary
+4 Improved Initiative
Total: +13

Aether Barrage Attacks:
1 attack from BAB
1 attack from aether barrage's second purchase
Total Attacks: 2

Range: 100 feet + 30 feet from caster level = 130 feet

Aether Barrage Attack Bonus:
2 BAB
+5 Dexterity modifier
+1 size
Total: +8/+8, targets touch AC

Aether Barrage Damage:
2d8 aether pulse
+5 Dexterity modifier
+1 tiefling avowed FCB
Total: 2d8+6 (average 15), can grant temporary hit points

Initiative +13. Two 130-foot-range attacks at a +8 bonus, targeting touch AC and dealing 15 damage each (for a total of 30 if they both hit). These attacks can grant temporary hit points. 30 damage is still more impressive than a 3rd-level, Strength 24, greatsword-swinging barbarian's +10 attack against normal AC for 2d6+13/19-20 damage. It is also more impressive than a Noble Scion (Narikopolus) + Precise Shot + Rapid Shot archer's routine, if the archer can even afford all those feats.

The character's noncombat utility includes:
• Hidden knowledge: +6 bonus to all Knowledge checks, and using Knowledges untrained
• Silver tongue: +6 bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks

The character also has remarkable noncombat capacities.

>>51869943
Being a Paizo villain is a real strike against her, but it does seem like she's going to be way more active than most AP villains. She's got her fingers all over the chapter summaries, so it won't be another villain out of nowhere.

>>51869411
Duelist PrC (caps at at level), Kensai archetype (caps out at level), Dervish Defender archetype (replacement), Student of War PrC (2nd-level, replacement), Edgelord archetype (as a Monk).

>>51870032
've always kinda liked Hobgoblins as villains. They seem a lot more reasonable than orcs. You can negotiate with hobgoblins.

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>>51870019

>The player is likely going to prefer maybe to take their CON, so they don't croak from a stiff breeze (correct or not many do in fact do this for that reason) and INT to 12 each and maybe distribute the points elsewhere, resulting in a slightly more rounded character.
Under, say, 25 point buy, a tiefling can afford Strength 7, Dexterity 18+2, Constitution 14, Intelligence 14+2, Wisdom 14, Charisma 7-2. Muleback Cords offset the low Strength, and Student of Philosophy renders the dismal Charisma a non-issue.

Now, what I could do to address your concern and >>51869922's concern is use a marker such as † to denote non-essential build components, or simply select only essential options and relegate non-essential add-ons to another section.

>>51869982
It still cripples a caster with AoE spells, you need line of sight to cast a spell somewhere. For whatever reason, Pathfinder doesn't let you just cast your spells blindly into the darkness/fog/your blindness.

>>51869411
>How do I get Intelligence to AC?
Symbiat
Drawback is that you're now a symbiat.

>>51870050

I've said it before and I'll say it again, but hobgoblins make the best antagonists simply because they fulfill the role of unquestionably evil hegemonic imperialists, big bads, and common mook.

>>51870050
/tg/ is pretty into hobbus. I think part of their appeal is lack of exposure though, goblins and orcs have both become pretty common generic enemies, but usually people don't bust out hobgoblins without a reason so that makes them more threatening on the meta end of things.

>>51870030
Mean touch AC at CR3 is 12 rather than 10.
You hit on a 4 or above so it's 2 x 17/20 x 15 = 25.5

You cannot one-round a CR3 enemy with this without good rolls, but can very reliably two-round one.

I think that's in a good place to be.

>>51870135
This isn't even taking into account that for flavor reasons, many aether barrage users will not be tieflings or small.

So it's more like +7/+7 for average 14, 2 x 16/20 x 14 = 22.4 damage, which is extremely reasonable.

Getting within 30ft and applying point blank shot for +1/+1 brings it back up to 25.5

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>>51870135

Very high initiative means that you could very well be targeting flat-footed touch AC.

Besides, the real benchmark for the 3rd-level ultra-restricted avowed (no self pact, no nation pact, no Overcharge Modulation) is not actual monsters, but other 3rd-level dedicated damage-dealers.

Currently, said avowed is outpacing the accuracy, damage, and initiative of a Strength 24 raging greatsword barbarian and of a Noble Scion (Narikopolus) + Precise Shot + Rapid Shot archer. The avowed also completely blows away the noncombat utility of those two Paizo competitors.

>>51870037
>Dervish Defender archetype (replacement)
It's not a replacement. It just straight up adds INT-to-AC at level 1. It even applies to both touch and flat-footed AC.

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>>51870199

Let us play by your logic, then. We will restrict this 3rd-level avowed even further: no self pact, no nation pact, no Overcharge Modulation, absolutely must be human.

Level: 3rd
Race: Human
Class: Avowed (undead [lich] pact, balefire infusion, aether blow)

Key Ability Score: Dexterity 20 = base 18 + 2 racial

Key Traits:
Combat: Reactionary
Social: Student of Philosophy
Possibly another trait with a drawback

Feats:
Human: Point Blank Shot
1st-level: Weapon Focus (aether pulse)
Avowed: Precise Shot
3rd-level: Improved Initiative

Shapes: Aether barrage ×3

Lesser Clauses: Hidden knowledge, sightseer, lifeleech pulse

Initiative:
5 Dexterity modifier
+2 Reactionary
+4 Improved Initiative
Total: +11

Aether Barrage Attacks:
1 attack from BAB
1 attack from aether barrage's second purchase
Total Attacks: 2

Range: 100 feet + 30 feet from caster level = 130 feet

Aether Barrage Attack Bonus:
2 BAB
+5 Dexterity modifier
+1 Weapon Focus
Total: +8/+8, targets touch AC

Aether Barrage Damage:
2d8 aether pulse
+5 Dexterity modifier
Total: 2d8+5 (average 14), can grant temporary hit points

Initiative +11. Two 130-foot-range attacks at a +8 bonus, targeting touch AC and dealing 14 damage each (for a total of 28 if they both hit). These attacks can grant temporary hit points. This is still superior to the Strength 24 raging greatsword barbarian, and it is also superior to the Noble Scion (Narikopolus) + Precise Shot + Rapid Shot archer, even before we bring in the noncombat utility.

The character's noncombat utility includes:
• Hidden knowledge: +6 bonus to all Knowledge checks, and using Knowledges untrained
• Sightseer: See perfectly in any darkness out to any range, and see invisibility

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>The Nation and Self Pacts are being fixed.

Self Pact I understand, but... what did Nation Pact do to get nerfed?

>>51870210
When pazio writes mechanics, they can't just write OP bullshit and then publish it.

But it seems that third party people MUST do that or no one will buy their stuff.

>>51870290

It's 2017, we can't give mechanical bonuses for hating foreigners.

>>51869982
Moving at half speed, needing acrobatics to move, permanent flat footed. Blind is nasty.

>>51870290
They're making it so that you can't declare yourself sovereign of your own personal nation to get bonuses to everything, and tightening up the wording on just what you get bonuses against (because they thought that 'oh yeah, you shoot dem furr'ners better was a wee bit xenophobic).

>>51870294
>sacred geometry
>fey obedience (magdh)
>blood money
>visualization of the mind

>>51870359
I haven't heard of this last one, what's it do?

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>>51870339
Why no Sovereign Citizen Pact avowed?

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I know I'm like a year late but is this an error or is this archetype just that bad?

In what universe would you even consider this? The Drake isn't even fucking good.

>>51870364
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/visualization-of-the-mind/

>>51870382
It's very bad, don't use it.

>>51870371
Because Sovereign Citizens are completely brainless, and should be put down.

>>51870371
Isn't that just the Self pact?

>>51870383
>enhance a single aspect of your mind
>Shaman/Wizard/Cleric 2
>Not a psychic spell

Fucking why Paizuri

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So, my group's GM has decided to tell us we're playing Pathfinder. We don't really get a say in this since, as the Forever GM, he makes the policy and the rules we have to play by if we want to have a game night.

In fantasy settings, I tend to go for knightly types, and I've always had a thing for flails. Is there a way to do that effectively in Pathfinder, or are flails victims of the Ivory Tower?

>>51870290
Self Pact is such a retarded boogeyman meme

>muh extra attacks with aether channel
only actually works "properly" if you're pure unarmed, and aether channel doing full aether pulse dice was a mistake to begin with
>muh overcharge modulation
something that has been repeatedly pointed to as being broken as fuck and in dire need of a retool

>>51870407

Flails are fine, especially if you allow Scarlet Throne Style which allows you to treat a one-handed weapon as two-handed.

>>51870407
Well, tell us what content is allowed and we can let you know

>>51870446
Probably shouldn't assume 3pp.

>>51870458
Fair enough. The GM has said "Basically anything on the SRD, just run weird shit by me first."

>>51870407
Your weapon choice isn't really very important, for the most part. You're better off using a two-handed weapon like heavy flail, though, since while the weapon itself isn't important, your fighting style is and sword-and-board/TWF are generally not as good as using a two-handed weapon.

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>>51870424

Overcharge Modulation and extra attacks are the main problems, it seems.

The self pact exacerbates this by handing out extra attacks. Charisma to unarmored AC and to all saving throws make for incredible benefits as well.

Charisma to unarmored AC and to all saving throws alone would make the self pact worth investing in. Other attunements and 4th-level empowerments tend to be underwhelming, most especially those of the otyugh pact.

>>51870505
It doesn't hand out any more than twf does.

>>51870446
But...you can use a flail two-handed without investment in anything...

>>51870532
Yes but it doesn't allow you to also use a shield with it, does it?

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>>51870528

Aether Duelist lowers your aether pulse dice. The self pact does not.

Of course, aether barrage spammers make the best use of Overcharge Modulation, but as currently written, the self pact is no slouch at abusing Overcharge Modulation either.

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What's a fairly average or acceptable amount of initiative for level 5?

What would you consider high initiative?

Where do you draw the line and say "that's too much"?

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>>51870498
Wait really? Doesn't that lock out the shield?

Shouldn't one of the literally most iconic combat styles in the world be more... I don't know, viable? Literally every culture in the world that's dealt with arrows - which is very nearly all of them, if not all - had shields as a staple piece of equipment.

>>51870571
4e was the only D&D edition that did shields right.

5e kind of regressed on that and made shields only sorta okay if you took Shield Master.

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Looks like some people managed to wise up and update their sheets. Why havent you fixed yours yet pfg? Time is running out!

>>51870571
It's definitely a viable fighting style but it's extremely feat intensive. It's shitty that that's the case but that's how dumb this game can be.

>>51870544
A buckler, technically. Gives you a -1AB and you don't benefit from shield bonus when you do it

>>51870571
No one thinks Pathfinder is balanced. Shield's not so bad though, it has some decent tricks, the problem is just that Pathfinder's inherent design makes blocking and control less viable than just murdering stuff efficiently. In a vacuum there's nothing terribly wrong with it.

>>51870604
The amount of absolutely god awful character art here REALLY worries me, especially knowing that these people are from /pfg/.

>>51870611
Well, I was intending to play a heavily archetyped fighter anyways, I guess. what feats should I be looking at?

I'd go looking myself, but there's an absolute shitload of feats out there.

>>51870505
But the thing is that extra attacks themselves are not the problem, the problem is Overcharge Modulation and how the attacks interact with an Overcharged Aether Channel.

>>51870604
>Amadeus still dead
>Leila completely replaced
My bets have completely failed me and I need to change teams. How're you guys doing on your draft?

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>>51870645

The extra attacks would already seem to push the class over the edge even at the lower levels. I direct you to the builds in >>51870030 and >>51870280.

>>51870604
What about a list for Taldor Ascendant?

>>51870684
Redflag game, not touching.

>>51870684
Wouldn't be practical. WotR got hit by the Mythpocalypse so book-keeper was needed and Taldor Ascendant still hasn't picked up traction. You could look up every character in 10 minutes tops.

>>51870677
>Self pact can make extra unarmed attacks and ONLY extra unarmed attacks with its pact stuff, outside of the pseudo-haste bonus
>this means anything but a dude punching dudes has to choose between extra attacks or full aether pulse dice
>"extra attacks would already seem to push the class over the edge"

the fuck are you on about

>>51870563
Too much isn't really an issue with initiative. It just means they go first, which isn't a big deal in and of itself.

>>51870571
It is viable, but... in Pathfinder, killing things faster trumps having good defence. In addition, shields "only" provide AC, and AC is generally not the optimal defence to focus in, because usually when something targets your AC, you can take a few hits(especially if you're a front line character with d10 HD and good constitution), but if something targets your will or fort save, one failed save could see you out of fight or worse. And even when defending against physical attacks, investing in miss chance is often better than AC, because unless you put a fair amount of resources into increasing your AC it doesn't keep up with enemy attack bonus.

Ironically, the best use for shield is often offence. With TWF line + Shield master, you don't take penalties to your off-hand attacks made with a shield. But that takes basically all of your feats(as TWF generally does - earlier I said TWF is worse than using two-handed weapon, but it isn't that TWF deals less damage, it merely costs you most of your feats to get to where THF is to begin with).

>>51870631
So who has art that actually suits your tastes?

>>51870805
Alright, thanks; that's given me some things to mull over. Hopefully I can make this work for me.

Sooo, my DM threw a group of redcaps at us, one of them has at least 10 DR.
We are 4 level 4 dudes, and all we know is:
They are fey
They are mean fuckers
They hit like trucks (they can kill the monk and cleric in 2 hits easy)
Their AC is at least 19+
They all have DR cold iron, and I am the only one that has a cold iron gauntlet
The monk and other dude, dunno what he is, but he has "island of blades" aren't actually able to hurt them, and the cleric has no offensive ability that I know of
Are we fucked?

>>51870631
Honestly, I think as long as everything is drawn it should be fine.

3d and real people pics are what will ultimately stand out.

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>>51870604
>Sen still out of commission

>>51870604
Fuuuuuck, There's a self-pact avowed/brutal slayer now. Time to get overshadowed!

>>51870861
Probably, my group almost tpked from Dr 10/cold iron at level 3 because paizo does not know how to write encounters.

>>51869932
>Likewise, spending 16,000 gp on +4 Dexterity by 8th- or 9th-level is only natural.
Point; in many games - especially games starting at lower levels - items will be provided by loot and not purchased, and those item values will make up the majority of the WBL provided. 50% resale values of these items will be unlikely be sufficient to provide sufficient funds to make up proper WBL and therfore buying such a +4 stat boost item may be highly unlikely and also detrimental to the player characters abilities.

>>51870631

And most of it is anime, who would've known!

>>51870716
I'm still waiting for the GM to come back before I put something down.

>>51870604
>DHB's character
>bred for war
>charming
>fate's favored
>destined bloodline
>16 cha
>18 str

He is trying to build a protagonist?

>>51869411
Anyone that can get a Rogue Talent, take Prescient Dodger from Divination Handbook of SoP. Or Entropic Sage archetype for Hedgewitch from Destruction book, gives it at level 1.

>>51870890
Please go into your situation.
I had to leave the game when these things first showed up due to obligations, got a panicked text later saying we were all gonna die and that I was desperately needed.
If these are as badass as they seem, how will my greatsword and cold iron gauntlet turn the tide? By fisting these things to death?
Do red caps have any weaknesses??

>>51870974
I mean, there's worse ways to do it than going full "DESTINY"

My players are going to fight Aeteperax in Dragon's Demand, and I need good boss fight music! Give me music to fight dragons to!

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Look a thing I promised I'd do that isn't Agunasposting.

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>on the table you find a greatsword, a falchion, and earthbreaker and a nodachi, all shimmering with a magical glow that-
>Barbarian: Are there any clubs? I'm gonna hold out for a magic club thanks.

So /pfg/, how was YOUR game today?

>>51870973

Likewise, I want to join but I don't want the pain of a ghost.

>>51870997
>he isn't a chosen one paladin

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>>51871008

>>51871009
>getting mad that people are going for things that aren't 100% optimal

>>51870861
>4 level 4s
>vs. a group of CR6s
Fucking run.

>>51870993
Fist them to death, my group had to use cold iron arrows as improvised daggers.

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>>51871024

>>51871009
>You find the most magnificent club you've ever seen! Here are its stats: 2d4 damage, 18-20/x2 critical. And it deals uh slashing damage.

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>>51871044

>>51871008
Oh shit, I actually like guns. Is this going to be actually semi-decent?

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>>51871061
>>51871066
YOU DECIDE!

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>>51871080

>>51871044
>>51871061
>>51871080

It always irks me slightly to see books not in the two column layout.

At least it isn't the three column landscape Rogue Genius uses.

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>>51871105
>>51871106
I've gotten used to it, I actually buy quite a bit of Purple duck's stuff, because it's fairly consistently above average.

>>51871034
>CR6
I thought CR was a shit way of determining anything ever?
>hope it's not that bad
>>51871042
My fist is a mighty fist, it carries the hopes of my friends, it's name is Kit Fisto. I do wonder if the GM threw this at us because of my fist, however.

>>51871034
>Redcaps have a speed of 60
Jesus. Can't they outrun you since they too can book it at full speed like you and are already twice the amount?

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>>51871124

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>>51871009
Hasn't happened yet, but will be starting up here in a few hours!

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>>51871148

>>51871148
>>51871124
>>51871106
>>51871105
>>51871080
>>51871061
>>51871044
>>51871024

Or or

instead of taking up so many posts and flooding the fucking thread

just post the fucking pdf?

>>51871156
You.
Post the rest of the pics.
And give Elsbeth something besides puffies, you cockteasing bastard, I hate puffy nipples so much HATEHATEHATE

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>>51871172
>>51871182
You too senpai

>>51871182
shut the fuck up nigger

please continue dumping, anon

>>51871182
Dunno why you quoted me in that but presumably the pdf isn't cleaned.

>>51871182
Get a load of this faggot, telling someone to not post relevant content

>>51871136
Sorta. However unless you're all built fairly well, facing several enemies a few CR above you is still a good sign you're going to get fucked.

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>>51871197

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>>51871223
Page 12 was a picture of a kobold and as we all know, kobolds a shit.

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>>51871237

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>>51871190
I'll see what I can do, anon

>>51871214
Unless they're really over CR'd. Like that "mage hunter" from the NPC codex. Or Harsk.

>>51871034
>Gets told to run
>>51871137
>find out I can't even run, I am the slowest one there except for the cleric, even with a bonus
>>51871214
>you're all built fairly well
>unchained monk
>cleric being played by my bro is a kingly at support clerics
>other guy, still don't know what he is other than he uses light armor, no shield and has "Island of Blades
>me
Uh... I will protect my fellows to the end!
>because I can't run, so may as well buy the rest time to run

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>>51871259

>>51868406
>Rogues are not known as overwhelming damage dealers

Greetings from the Special Education wing, anon! Remember, paste is both tasty and filling.

>>51868577
Absofuckinglutely none. The weapon package is meaningless, but since a lot of people don't actually understand how the game works, they flipped on that instead of being able to get pseudo-pounce with extra attacks, better BAB iteratives, and equal or better extra damage than a martial class that also relies on throwing a lot of dice around for damage.

The problem with Broken Blade, and a lot of design around TO DPR is that what is acceptable for average tables is not acceptable for optimized tables is not acceptable for the magical fairyland wet dreams where Wizards never have a SoD fail and has the silver bullet for everything, but Clerics and Druids never do the Cleric Archer thing on top of their own silver bullets. 3rd party DPR focused abilities always focus on that last one, which is insanity. I personally believe it's because the designers come from/are influenced by a build culture that cargo cults ideas from TO folks (looking at you, Tiers) without understanding the why or how of things.

In actual play, a RAGELANCEPOUNCE (or Natural Disaster Pounce) character is as much as a nuisance as a God Wizard, since they're both obviating combat challenges when they go off. At least a God Wizard needs the cleanup crew when they do it. If it's Rage or Mutagen based, they even have the 15 minute workday problem the God Wizard does!

They both hurt the game and you shouldn't design to be either. BB was designing to be the former and absolutely no weapon choice needing was stopping that shit.

>>51871264
Yeah, I didn't notice their move speed until it was pointed out.

Uh... yeah, you're pretty fucked.

There's a way to make them scatter, but it seems like your characters didn't get high enough Knowledge checks to learn that.

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>>51871279

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>>51871305

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>>51871326

>>51871264
Yell "Fuck you all, I'm out of here!" and take off your clothing and put it all back on inside out.

Yes, that is a real world defense against fey mischief.

Alternatively...offer to personally and by hand dye their caps for them if they let you live.

fighting isn't the only way, but it will suck to bleed on their caps that much.

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>>51871342

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>>51871362

>>51871262
Thank you very much.
>>51871289
I dispute you on a novel notion: that the abuses of BB rely on someone picking up only the most optimal choices, compared to what initiators tend to do in that they allow a player to choose fluff and flavor over mechanical effectiveness and STILL be able to contribute meaningfully. I agree with your lancepounce analogy, but it falls apart when you bring up that doing so forces the player to use a single weapon/tactic, and is rendered impotent when it's not applicable.
BB makes natural attacks and unarmed attacks, which are very poor unless you build entirely around them, viable at base to even a novice player.
To me, being able to allow new players to skirt the optimization pit that 3.pf has is a worthwhile goal in itself, even if it comes with the issues of optimizers abusing it to take it places better off not ventured (even tho that is part and parcel to the game unfortunately, but really only online).

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>>51871385

>>51871279
I'm going to guess that the entangled there in Noxious Rounds should have been sickened. Man, this book needed a grammer check or two before hitting layout.

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>>51871401

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>>51871422

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>>51871438

>>51871415
>Man, this book needed a grammer check or two before hitting layout.
You are correct about that. This lays a lot more on me than PDG for the editing. I need to be far more careful next time and run it by a friend or two before sending it to PDG.

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>>51871453

>>51871352
Fighting has already started, anon, I can't diplo my way out of this.
Apparently, they came out of a dream, so they may not even be REAL.
>>51871303
Our lore whore only made it high enough to figure out they hate cold iron and religion, they are fey and they are called red caps.
Wow.... we are screwed. I hope we can pull some shit off. The party seems to have hope I can turn the tide, it's sorta flattering tbqh.

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>>51871473

>>51870631
What bearing does character art have on the game? If someone has a good character what difference does it make if their art is a stick figure or an anime girl with massive tits? How do you even find a picture for a character that you made up?

I spent a long time searching for pictures and never found what I was looking for, so I settled for something. If I get accepted, maybe I'll commission a picture. It's nice to have good art but why is it necessary?

>>51871489

Character art is what you're looking at for like 80% of the time, it's absolutely vital for setting the mood of the character and giving us an image of them in the mind's eye.

This is why anime art is so incompatible with more realistic art.

>>51871506
You seem to have missed something.

>>51871477
Has the cleric needed to channel energy yet?

>>51871465
>DHB
>friends

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>>51871488
Fug forgot image

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>>51871524

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>>51871551

>>51871504
>This is why anime art is so incompatible with more realistic art.
This is only the case if you consider anime style art aberrant. You'd have the same contrast if everyone had anime art, and you had one guy with a Frazetta piece.

>>51871590
Second time, man.

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>>51871576
I am bad

>>51871517
I don't know if the cleric has channel, he hasn't used it the entire game thus far.

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>>51871617

>>51870873

>Mudwrestling-chan is kill

o7

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>>51871638

>>51871619
Hm... Guess you'll have to hope to stumble across it some other way then.

>>51871659
The rest is legal stuff no one actually cares about, have fun ripping into it, and I guess support the official release and blah blah blah or don't, I don't have a vested interest in DHB.

>>51871672
Explain yourself, anon.