/5eg/ D&D Fifth Edition General: Still mad at latest UA Edition

First for KOBOLD DRAGON-HUNTING PARTY

So can we continue arguing about the viability of real-world clerics of evil gods?

I feel like we still have a lot of potential there.

Well, you know Inflict Wounds will always be a thing

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ALRIGHT BOYS
I'm possibly entering a game that is almost entirely combat focused, little intrigue, little exploration, set in a prison on a demiplane where all you do is duke it out in gladiator arenas and occasionally fight in prison turf wars and shank people.
ALL UA IS ALLOWED
MULTICLASSING AND FEATS ARE ALL ALLOWED
ALL OFFICIALLY PUBLISHED RACES ALLOWED.
GIVE ME YOUR ABSOLUTELY MOST OPTIMAL IN EXISTENCE BUILDS THAT ARE SOLELY BASED ON BEING AMAZING AT COMBAT
OPTIMIZATION IS BEING ENCOURAGED BY THE DM, GO WILD

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>>51855477
Whatcha talking 'bout ya period-blood sucking twat
Hope ya ready for a whippin' good time

>>51855514
>So can we continue arguing about the viability of real-world clerics of evil gods?

Wait, real world clerics of evil gods, or clerics of real world evil gods? I swear I'm not being pedantic.

>>51855514
Sure.
I don't believe you should have Evil Gods in polytheistic panthons, with a sphere of "Evil" or "Destroy Us All". Even if there were some village edgelords willing to show up to church, everyone else would burn that shit down.

The Gods of Antiquity, the sole source for a basis of pantheons outside of pulp fantasy, did not sup with Fenris. Fenris was a monster who was chained by a mountain, and everyone on Earth was glad for it.

>>51855527

Bane is definitely more methodical than Ares. What they most have in common is a dedication to violence, however.

While Ares would definitely be Chaotic Evil, cleaving through you with main strength and blind fury, Bane is thorough, and will not stop until he has either utterly crushed and subjugated you, or you are a bloody smear on the battlefield.

>>51855544
Sounds dreadful, and Giant in the Playground has numerous standing threads full of Munchkinry.

Why any sane human being would play this sort of shit outside 3.5/Pathfinder I cannot grasp.

>>51855586
The former, I think.

One Anon put forward that it would be unrealistic to have clerics that worship evil gods in real life, and then the debate began.

>>51855601
>While Ares would definitely be Chaotic Evil
Ares is the God of War. Just War, unjust War, Defensive War whatever.
His dominion is the clash of arms, honorable or dishonorable, whatever.

Why is he Chaotic Evil, because DC or Disney told you so?

The people who spent their real lives venerating Ares did not consider him Evil.

>>51855590

In fairness, Set was a straight-up god of evil, foreign lands, and magic in Egyptian mythology, and he was a central (if not especially worshiped) part of the pantheon.

He may not have attended social functions with the chopped up bits of Osiris and his sister-wife, but he was still a member of their social club.

>>51855544
Nuclear Druid.

Done.

>>51855678
Because the PHB told so

>>51855678
Are we at the point now that people can't recognize that war is bad?

>>51855678
I seriously cannot think of even a single reason why someone should be CE if people who like them don't consider them CE.

>>51855455
5e didn't change anything about the Evil/Good cosmology of Forgotten Realms, only the extent to which mechanics give a shit. Most people couldn't handle the extremely simple system without enormous, stupid misinterpretations, and it wasn't helped by a number of bone-headed alignment restrictions on classes that were inconsistent with setting law, so all of that stuff got junked. But torturing people to death being Evil didn't.

If you want to argue that alignment "doesn't work that way" in 5e Forgotten Realms because a full explanation of the system is missing from the rule books, you may as well forget any and all detail about all the deities of the setting because none of that has any representation in 5e except for a list of
>Godname, pronoun of onethingthegodisabout || alignment || Cleric archetypes || symbol
Helm is "god of protection" and you're supposed to take Light or Life here, but there is no greater explanation that he is a God of Guardsmen and Duty, prioritizes honor and fairness in his dealings, is a no-nonsense hardass, would never conscience any of his Clerics mucking about with undead, and is EXTREMELY responsive to prayers, requests for advice and guidance, and routinely pops in to help his faithful out when shit gets real.

5e has left the fluff back in old books but hasn't sought to challenge or retcon most anything that isn't 4e's Spellplague cosmology or geography.

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>>51855678
>Why is he Chaotic Evil, because DC or Disney told you so?

The most recent DC Ares I read was more TN than anything else. Blood, combat, war, that's it. A personified fact of human nature.

I'm not sure Disney has touched Ares. Maybe in the Hercules TV show, but that's apocrypha.

I'm basing my CE depiction of him from the Iliad, which somehow seems like a legitimate source.

>The people who spent their real lives venerating Ares did not consider him Evil.

The people who spent their real lives venerating Hitler did not consider him Evil.

Doesn't change where he'd be on the alignment spectrum.

>>51855544
Nuclear Druid
Onion Druid
PAM Paladin
20 CHA Oathbreaker/1 Hexblade
Archfey Warlock/Sea Sorc [Frost Lance + Repelling Blast + Sea Curse = kiting]
Favored Soul Sorc [For being the twinned spell buff/heal bitch]

>>51855733
uh, it's called "the chaos of battle" for a reason
no one goes around saying "every plan survives contact with the enemy because you can know with mathematical certainy whether an action will succeed or not"
the real mystery here is why anyone is still fighting wars with human soldiers instead of exchanging lists of imaginary forces and equipment on paper and calculating who should win the war
also he'd be CE in a setting like FR because alignment doesn't give a shit what anyone THINKS about their actions, only what they're doing

>>51855678
>Why isn't Ares more like Tempus than Garagos?

WotC had a good article on nonevil followers of Nerull (acknowledging this is normally impossible and has to stretch the theology), Erythnul, and Hextor.

Note that I consider it 100% plausible to have "reasonable" evil characters and even Nilbogs, which are chaotic evil goblin death jesters possessed by a god of putting the "laughter" in "slaughter" that has been driven even more badly insane by being shattered into a million pieces, are generally prone to cooperating if appeased. My absolute favorite kind of evil priest/cleric is the kind that is quite satisfied (by default) for him and his god to be simply appeased.

>>51855813
Dude was being sarcastic, Anon.

I know it's hard on the internet, but you've got to put on your critical reading goggles.

Do we not have Tome of Beasts pdf yet? Couldn't find it in the Mega trove.

>>51855832
Tempus is a god-tier god

>>51855854
what part of that obviously sarcastic response made you think i wasn't in on the joke
do i need to put ", like, duh, idiot, gosh, everyone knows that" in there next time

>>51855857
Look harder

>>51855857
Third Party > Kobold Press > Tome of Beasts

>>51855878
Yes, actually, that would help. ;_;

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I'm saying, when you draw your gaming map, and you mark the land over the mountains as "This is where the Slaygaronds live. They are a CE society who worship BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD.", you are creating a campaign in the most cartoonishly simplistic way possible.
Fite me.

I like 5e's rules, dungeons and dragons worldbuilding much less, and realize they only use the Alignment Wheel because they own the intellectual rights to it as an original idea of theirs.

I'm a full year into running a campaign with no Alignment system, full of fickle, self-interested Gods, and everyone is having a blast.

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>>51855813
People like Sun Tzu would tell you that the battle is won or lost before the armies even clash.

Modern commanders subscribe to this "no plan survives" crap because they've techologically advanced war to industrial-scale slaughter involving machines they personally barely understand.

>>51855752
>5e didn't change anything about the Evil/Good cosmology of Forgotten Realms

Back in 3e, the edition of objective alignments that people seem to slavishly worship and insist on dragging into the wrong threads, it was also noted the gods don't necessarily hew to their alignments closely.

>But torturing people to death being Evil didn't.

Anon used Strawman! It wasn't very effective...

>If you want to argue that alignment "doesn't work that way" in 5e Forgotten Realms

1. Gods still don't decide what good and evil aren't in FR. So its not relevant. FR just uses the normal rules of whatever D&D edition is appropriate.
2. The only argument that slavery is "objectively evil" in 5e FR is "well, a previous edition of D&D, AFTER the FR book came out and made no reference to it, decreed that slavery, due to conflicting with the author's political opinions, is objectively evil."
3. By far the #1 source of aasimar in FR comes from a land where slavery is totally kosher, because its Fake Egypt Land.

>>51855913
<islamic state joke/metaphor>

>>51855913
>This is where the Slaygaronds live

So far, whether its this thread or the thread before, NOBODY has remotely argued in favor of that. The only time someone has brought that sort of thing up, they are attempting to strawman someone else's perspective into that.

>>51855913
>I'm saying, when you draw your gaming map, and you mark the land over the mountains as "This is where the Slaygaronds live. They are a CE society who worship BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD.", you are creating a campaign in the most cartoonishly simplistic way possible.
That's not how it was interpreted, and if your comment was about worldbuilding, you should have made it clearer.
>I like 5e's rules, dungeons and dragons worldbuilding much less, and realize they only use the Alignment Wheel because they own the intellectual rights to it as an original idea of theirs.
IMO it's because it's a sacred cow, but whatever
>I'm a full year into running a campaign with no Alignment system, full of fickle, self-interested Gods, and everyone is having a blast.
Cool, but your fun is not better than anyone else's. A setting with objectively evil orcs worshiping the god of genital multilation, genocide, and pineapple on pizza can still be engaging and fun. And really that's all any of us are here for.

>>51855981
Slavery, like regular employment, is only despicable when it's conditions are unnecessarily cruel and onerous.
Turn of the old century sweatshop and industrial workers were likely less happy than your average Greek house-slave.

You've got the classic television images of Egyptians building everything in the most stupid and labor abusing ways, which in America is amplified by the genuinely punitive and racially driven slavery that's not found throughout the ancient world.

>>51855913
>nothing is black or white
>when you do good you're actually acting on residual guilt from that time you stole a cookie in the third grade
>also it's really evil because you are selfishly attempting to increase your social standing undeservedly and win influence and rewards
>and the evil guy you're stopping isn't really evil, he's just misunderstood, and you can totally see where he's coming from
>i mean yeah he's already blow up five guard barracks and is going to detonate another one tomorrow night which is also adjacent to an orphanage but he's just a tortured soul and if the corrupt guardsmen didn't imprison and let his wife die in jail then none of this would have happened
>i mean can you really fault him
>are you really any better
>also can we really cast aspersions on the guardsmen responsible for the wife's death, i mean, they were just acting as the system demands, it's the real evil here
>also they were generally abused as children and are the products of a dysfunctional society so we can't really expect upstanding morality from anyone
>which brings us to the architects of this society, the nobility, who--
>actually nevermind they are as much a victim of their upbringing as anyone
>all humans are flawed
>nothing matters
>life is meaningless
>why even bother saving the orphans, they have nothing to look forward to but a short life of heartache and pain anyway
>why even bother playing this game or reading this story, we're all going to die
MUH SHADES OF GREY is shit and the refuge of uncritical buffoons who cannot perform moral calculus or analyze a story and character motivations completely. It's also far more overdone at this point than any mount of Sunday morning children's cartoons' villainry can stand to overcome so you're technically more unique for having a completely unhinged murderjester as your BBEG instead of some brooding and vulnerable dickshit whose puppy was kicked when he was young.

>>51855886
Thanks sempai

>>51855883
Fuck you sempai

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There isn't a character art thread up right now so I'm /r/ing pics I can use for a SMUG General in my campaign. Evil looking-ness is optional

>>51855913
>I'm a full year into running a campaign with no Alignment system, full of fickle, self-interested Gods, and everyone is having a blast.
Must suck only being able to challenge your party's morals with the threat of godly revenge and comeuppance. I weep for you, being unable to know the patrician joys of objective morality.

>>51856059
I honestly can't tell the difference between real things and jokes anymore.

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>>51856019
Yes, but traditional settings like FR absolutely do this. You have entire races/societies full of CE slavemongers like the Drow or tyrannical for the fuck of it LE Hobgoblins.

It's a cartoonishly simple setting. A few gish alignment-outliers like Drizz't doesn't change that

I'm saying you can have world-shaking wars, cultural conflicts and crossed interests without having Gods of Evil pulling strings to make it happen.

>>51856059
I wasn't there for either so I can't really compare.

Has anyone ran a Sunsoul monk yet, and if you did was it fun?

>>51855504
I missed this meme, and now it's been such a long time that I have no idea what it references. What is it?

>>51856119
Mystara didn't "pigenhole" Gods into Evil and Good camps but they still pulled strings to make everything happen because THEY'RE LITERALLY FUCKING GODS AND THAT'S WHAT GODS DO HOLY SHIT WHY EVEN HAVE GODS IN YOUR SETTING IF THEY'RE WORTHLESS SHITHEADS WHO DON'T MEDDLE IN MORTAL AFFAIRS 240/7

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>>51856107
My party is currently challenged by having to find a new homeland for the barrens-dwelling society that the Cleric was born into. They've removed what was poisoning the natural flora of that region, but in turn destroyed the unnatural ecosystem that was sustaining the barrens nomads.
Now they've cleared a force from empire B. that was holding an ancient city on the edge of a rainforest that is the neighboring nation C., the traditional enemies of B.
Problem is C. took that city on the edge of their territory centuries ago and let the forest reclaim it, and Barrens Guys (A.) aren't likely to be welcome to have it back for nothing (if at all).
The Ranger is a respected hero of C. which further complicates matters.

But I guess I could just be running "EEBIL HORDES OF GRUMMSH FROM DA MOUNTAINS!"

>>51856119
They're a CE culture because their society heavily encourages doing X,
where X just happens to be acts that are CE, dork

>>51856208
I wasn't talking about Mystara; I certainly don't have problems with God-ridden worlds.
I just have issues with Gods (or mortals) with Alignments stamped on their heads.

>>51856239
That's not even an intelligible argument.

>>51856224
OH WOW, THE CHARACTERS TRIED TO DO A GOOD THING BUT IT HAD UNINTENDED BAD CONSEQUENCES
OH MAN I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS SHIT BEFORE
IT CERTAINLY DOESN'T GET OLD EVEN THOUGH IT HAS BEEN THE RESULT OF LITERALLY EVERYTHING WE'VE EVER DONE
I SURE AM GLAD WE'VE GOT A DM THAT DOESN'T DO CARTOONISHLY CLICHED SHIT ALL THE TIME

>>51856224
Not him, but I agree with you man. I intentionally designed my setting to have less ambiguous morality in my deities, but you're being kinda hostile.

>>51856119
I'm not sure what sort of cartoon features the modern drow but it would probably have to be edgy as fuck gore porn.

1. Drow, in their initial iteration, were not unreasonably evil, they're sexist religious fanatics in a very harsh environment. That's not even 0.000001% odd or unbelievable by human standards. They got made more chaotic stupid over time, but 1e drow are nothing unreasonable. 1e drow put a low value of life on other species (like many humans), are sexist religious fanatics (like many humans), and they will die to protect their children (like many humans). Because of people being triggered by Drizz't, however, tons of people want drow to be over the top gore cartoons at all times, including fetal combat, and yeah that's a lot of BS.

2. Hobgoblins? Is there anything remotely unreasonable about hobgoblin lore or behavior? They're just "kind of mean militaristic, similar to a nicer version of Spartans." There is nothing about them that is "tyrannical for the fuck of it." They conquer when it is necessary, use strength until conquered peoples submit, and allow harmless religions (like harvest deities) to remain standing and more defiant/militaristic rival religions are destroyed or forced to convert.

I can see why people have a problem with edgelord drow, but 1e drow, and hobgoblins, have nothing wrong with them. Evil factions are mostly just mirrors held up to humanity.

Finally, totally evil, unreasonable factions do serve at least one purpose: they aren't necessarily interesting but the way normal people cope with them can be.

>>51856224
>party of four beats up an army garrison
>solely responsible for saving an entire culture
Good, realistic setting.

>>51856283
Tell me you are pretending to be retarded.
Yes, it's a thing that doing X good deed doesn't necessarily lead to Happily Ever After with no consequences.
Removing the cause of the Barrens stopped the problems the nomads had with infant mortality, and it will allow the Barrens to recover over centuries.
But it leaves a further dilemma, that of the Barrens supporting NO native flora or fauna, which is something next to be resolved.

This is how you run an ongoing story that isn't random murderhobo-ing, you ridiculous dolt.

>>51856224
>But I guess I could just be running "EEBIL HORDES OF GRUMMSH FROM DA MOUNTAINS!"

Can you offer a non strawman critique of what is unbelievable about orcish society, without simply resorting to strawmen?

>>51855913
>>51856107
>>51856224
>>51856283
>>51856349
>Why can't I hold all this excluded middle?

>>51856107
>No alignment means no moral quandries
Literally the opposite. Once I got rid of good/evil alignments my players actually having to ask themselves what their characters would do instead of just referring to their catch-all moral directive.

>>51856301
In my setting, goblinoids are militaristic and protective, drow are callous about life, and orcs are savage and impulsive. None are "evil."
It limits opportunities to fight unambiguously evil armies that are okay to kill indiscriminately, but more than makes up in a wider variety of peoples to interact with and unique societies to explore.

>>51856314
>solely responsible for saving an entire culture
They haven't saved shit yet. Things get real when the Rainforest guys get a break in their ongoing war and realize the Barrensfolk have started clearing out their old lost city to live in.

That's going to be the complex issue. Also, the original force lurking in that city was cleared by the party, several strong NPC allies, and a large force of the Nomads the party convinced to aid them.
But thanks for your ass-umptions.

>>51856393
>None are "evil."

Good for you. Just don't pretend you're being "realistic" by so doing.

>>51856363
>what is unbelievable about orcish society, without simply resorting to strawmen?

They are almost a parody of the old Irish impression of the Bloodthirsty Demonic Viking Raider. And of course in Dungeons and Dragons that is literally the entire core of their society, which was completely untrue of the Vikings, who farmed and maintained pastures, fished and even traded.

Dungeons and Dragons orcs are the Jun Horde from Beastmaster, basically. Organic Kill-bots.

>>51856381
>Why can't I hold all this middle ground fallacy?
Sometimes the dichotomy is real, anon.

>>51856423
>don't pretend you're being "realistic"
I'm not one of the original arguanons, but why is this less realistic than an "evil species"? Genuinely curious to know why you think an entire race that can't form non-murderous societies is realistic.

Is taking 3-4 levels of Kensai Monk on my Hunter Ranger a dumb idea?

>>51856474
And this is entirely supported by Volo's, in case anyone wants to make that argument.
They are "god-ridden" by EVIL gods, and live their entire life cycle as front-line infantry on endless pillages.
They are the cartoonishly antagonistic society.

>>51856393
>we thought the alignment on our character sheets was a straitjacket and not an alterable reflection of past actions
Why have I yet to meet anyone whose disdain for the alignment system isn't based on having no good idea how it works?

>>51856526
The thing is, I agree with you. But many players, especially relatively inexperienced ones, try to "adhere to their alignment" instead of letting it describe them, and this is reinforced by the role alignment plays in some game mechanics.
By ridding the game of good/evil, I helped the players free themselves from what you correctly identify as a false idea of how it works, and they started roleplaying better.
Really, this calls into question the value of a purely descriptive attribute that can change over time. If alignment is no more inherent to your "essence" than your credit score, why do we record it on our character sheets to begin with?

>>51856485
Exactly.
The Dark Elves aren't just " sexist religious fanatics in a very harsh environment", they are driven by the Evil Spider Queen to relentlessly journey to the surface to wantonly murder other Elven societies who would at this point be glad to forget they ever existed.

That's a rather crucial aspect of their "society" that Drow-apologist Anon left out.

Anons? I want to try and convert my Barbarian from 4e to 5e (yeah, I know). Back in 4e, it was a Whirling Slayer, which is basically the dual-wielding mincing machine subtype for that edition. I suppose in 5e it'd work out as a Berserker (or an Elk/Tiger/Pegasus Totem Warrior) with the Dual Wielding fighting style?

>>51856517
>a culture that isn't like something you find among human civilizations on Earth
Wow, how odd that this UNREALISTIC FANTASY game would have entities and groups that are UNLIKE REAL THINGS WE KNOW!

>>51856572
Yeah, but only if your play in FR. There are many ways to portray rebellious, selfish elves that don't rely purely on a monolithic theocracy.
Hell, even the FR drow, if rid of Lolth, instantly become much more nuanced people (Drizzt notwithstanding).

Why is Lolth such a cunt

I want to make an "Undead" (More like meat-Warforged) race.

As of now I plan to do so by taking the Revenant subrace and slapping it onto the UA Warforged.

What should I remove from UA Warforged to balance this?

The Revenant respawn is also tweaked- it operates as normal, however if their body is destroyed they only respawn in one set location usually (depending on where game takes place in setting) 10gorillion miles away where their deity created them.

>>51856474
>without simply resorting to strawmen?

>just posts a bunch of strawmen while, of course misusing the word "literally"

Okay, at least there's one part that, maybe, I could get you to use your brain instead of regurgitating strawmen...

>which was completely untrue of the Vikings, who farmed and maintained pastures, fished and even traded.

Okay. Now I am going to ask that you think critically for a moment, difficult as it may be. Envision a form of humanoid, a late comer, that has a brain that doesn't work quite as well, but that is much stronger, faster, more fecund, and quicker to develop than its more established kin, and can see in darkness with greater faculty than the more dominant races?

Add to this the fact that, historically speaking in our planet, hominids tend to not get along, and species competing for the same niche tend to not get along. Add to this the fact that, since 1e, the lore has been that by the time orcs arose, virtually every form of desirable real estate has already been claimed.

Its not even 0.0000001% implausible or unrealistic that orcs would be exactly how they are in 5e, deities aside, when they don't have the land for farming or much of anything to trade.

>>51856586
>UNLIKE REAL THINGS WE KNOW!
But they aren't. they are a caricature of existing stereotypes, just as they were for Tolkien.

The trouble with FR or other D&D Orcs is that by having such a ludicrously silly society, they invite every sentient being within 10,000 miles of them to join forces temporarily and exterminate them, before returning to all their other old grievances.

They are such one-dimensional EVIL shitlords that there's no justification for everyone else to Not put everything else on hold and just murder them all with superior magic and technology.

D&D Orcs are just Demons on the Prime Material Plane. They'd have either won or gone extinct long before current timeline.

>>51856070
It's senpai, you -1 investigation bitch.

>>51856622
>There are many ways to portray rebellious, selfish elves that don't rely purely on a monolithic theocracy.
So you are completely ok with gutting the core elements of what even brings the Drow into existence and makes them "work"...
But eliminating the label of Chaotic Evil triggers you into an argument?

>>51856584
Barbarians don't get a fighting style, and Berserker is crap. Go Totem. If you can, take the Dual Wielder feat. Barbarians actually work reasonable well with dual-wielding because Rage gives a flat damage bonus, so more attacks = more damage.
Glad you're getting to keep your character, though! We had to do a lot of converting when we updated to 5e, and it ended up being a lot of fun.

>>51856669
>Just as they were for Tolkien
Anon, Tolkien orcs had nuanced needs and desires and mostly acted as they did because of evil tyrannical rulers.
The biggest problem in fantasy isn't Tolkien. It's that people didn't understand Tolkien.

>>51856485
>but why is this less realistic than an "evil species"?

Who are you quoting?

>Genuinely curious to know why you think an entire race that can't form non-murderous societies is realistic.

Genuinely curious to know why you think I think that, and I'm not even sure how societies could be "murderous."

Wanna have a real conversation and not just strawman at each other?

>>51856692
I think you're conflating me with someone else - I joined the conversation late. I'm happy to remove alignment labels (I'm the poster who did away with good/evil alignment labels entirely).
I think at their core the drow just need to be a dark reflection of "normal" elves. You can accomplish that without any of the specifics that created them in FR.

>>51856700
I wasn't attempting to strawman. As I said before, I joined late and I think people assumed I was one of the earlier angeranons.

>>51856517

Not really, considering Volo's makes it quite clear why orcs would be that way, gods or no gods.

>>51856635
>course misusing the word "literally"
It is stated in Black and White, in the official guidebook to Orcs in 5e, which is Volo's, that that is the sum core of their society.
Go fucking read it before you erroneously accuse me of misusing "Literally", you stupid percentile inventing person.

>"Its not even 0.0000001% implausible"
Seriously.

>>51855723
>War is bad
literally childish outlook
Yes it is 'bad' but it is not 'evil'
Is a war to depose a murderous tyrant 'evil'? No.

>>51856734
>I think at their core the drow just need to be a dark reflection of "normal" elves.
Absolutely. A society of Elves twisted by bad fortune, bad choices and bad leadership into a dangerous, spiteful and unpredictable peoples.

That doesn't need a label of Chaotic Evil.

>>51856569
Maybe you should tell your players "alignment doesn't preclude what you can do, it informs what you would generally do based on all the things you've done in the past". It is a baseline for how a character thinks or--and this is key--the average of several competing ideals.

What can happen without that baseline is players begin making up their character's motivations and ideals as each situation arises because they haven't thought it through. This can still happen without that baseline, but your starting alignment is, if you chose it for reasons other than mechanics (which aren't even a think in 5E) an excellent barometer to how a character generally acts.

Getting rid of Good/Evil didn't help your players RP any better than they could have with a better understanding of this very simple concept. What you got rid of was a compulsion to adhere to principles beyond the understanding of lesser moral minds. People who uphold subjective morality like to talk about how doing bad shit can sometimes lead to "the greater good", but the real greatest good and all the soul-searching that results can only come about in objective morality.

>>51856735
>Not really, considering Volo's makes it quite clear why orcs would be that way, gods or no gods.
Quote it. Put up or shut up. Because I read the orc section again just the other day, and it makes a big point about how Orc society is completely god-driven, and has been since day 1.

What if
Instead of being evil
Everything just
Wasn't

How "reasonable" is it to suggest a hostile creature put on a suit of armor using Suggestion, telling him he needs to protect himself for the coming battle? Assuming we are murdering his allies once he starts doing it. Like "don't even bother" tier?

>>51856572

Not talking about RA Salvatore's drow, dude, and even specified I was neither talking about them nor defended them.

>>51856631
She became emotionally retarded after being in a polygamous marriage with Corellon Larethian. Corey was not, in fact, faithful to his two wives, either. She was stuck with the losers of the elven war.

Fun trivia: the most well known non drow servant of drow is "LARETH the Beautiful," who incidentally may very well be a fallen paladin (mechanically qualifies, iirc).

>>51856784
>>51856569
For example, what is the tougher choice:
>kill a lich before he completes the kingdom-undeadifying spell, knowing that your only means of stopping him necessitates the deaths of a hundred innocents, and explaining to the townsfolk that the needs of the hundred thousand outweigh the needs of the hundred
or
>don't kill a lich before he completes the kingdom-undeadifying spell, because any action of yours that knowingly slaughters innocents imperils your immortal soul and tips the cosmic balance of Good and Evil the wrong way, robs angels of their strength, empowers demons and devils, and has effects that reach across the entire world and over eons, then explaining to the townsfolk that the needs of the untold millions and all the gods of light outweight the needs of the hundred thousand and those tens of thousands in the neighboring countries who must now contend with the unholy skeletal army marching under the banner of the lich

What's the tougher sell to the people of the village:
>of course I rushed into that burning building, the blacksmith's only child was inside; yes, I was at grave risk of death and injury, but a hero will risk it all to save even one innocent, for that would be the greater good
or
>i am sorry, good smith, but the cause seems hopeless. for all my might i fear that i could not contend with the blaze and rescue your daughter. yea, there is a chance that i might succeed, but i gather the odds so poor that i cannot conscience the risk of my life and all the good i am yet to do for the world and my glorious god for the slim chance of saving your only child, for my continued survival upholds the greater good

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>>51856784
>What can happen without that baseline is players begin making up their character's motivations and ideals as each situation arises because they haven't thought it through.

Yes, God forbid someone make decisions without carefully consulting with "their alignment". No characters in stories every make decisions they later regret that "don't generally represent their temperament".

Except that's a core element in myths, stories, legends. Just take Sir Lancelot.

Everyone behaving "according to their Alignment" is just childish hand-holding.

It isn't getting rid of Good and Evil as CONCEPTS, it's removing it as an absolute. You can do something Good for the village on the River and the village downstream might see it as being a Bad, Evil thing.

>>51856669
Unfortunately, you just keep going SILLY! CARTOONISH! STEREOTYPE! ONE DIMENSIONAL! EVIL! without ever trying to back any of it up.

>>51856193
It means nothing, except the wish to play a kobold dragon-hunting party.
I post it, every now and then someone else posts as well. No big memetic history behind it bruv.

>>51856858
I don't have to back it up, they published Volos and backed it up themselves.

Orcs and Gnolls are just YE FOUL FIENDS meant to erode at civilization, contributing nothing but some foes for murderhobos to vanquish with no second thoughts.

>>51856848
>You can do something Good for the village on the River and the village downstream might see it as being a Bad, Evil thing.
That happens even in an objective morality setting. Just because you're RIGHT about there being an objective Good and Evil doesn't mean any of the bumfuck peasants you try to explain this to have to listen to your shit.

There are far more moral quandaries under objective morality because you must contend not only with the subjective morals of various cultures or people, but the very cut-and-dried morals of the cosmos, especially when what the universe or your God considers to be "Good" conflicts with the peoples' understanding or desires (or when your God's conflicts with the universe's).

Christianity is replete with examples of "unknowable godly morality" and the angels of mythology past have been terrifying creatures whose motivations are far beyond what any mortal can know. They are given a pass only because they are considered infallible (which may or may not be correct), but that doesn't prevent soul-searching on the part of believers, nor does it stop others from questioning whether this belief system was good and righteous in the first place

Check out >>51856843

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In the end, Alignment isn't a training wheel for new Roleplayers; often their first character is based on some fictional character they are fond of, whether it be Conan or Katniss or Jon Snow.
Unless they are being randumb for lolz, they will adhere to that characters general mores modified by their own biases and interpretations.

No, what Alignment is is a clumsy tool for Dungeon Masters to try and pre-predict how the Party will respond to moral dilemmas. "I can throw quandry X at the Paladin, his LAWFUL GOOD Alignment will put him in a pickle, and I can fuck with him more if he "violates his Alignment".

It's cartoonish, shitty, non-immersive and worst of all generally completely innefectual. The only people who argue for Alignment systems are those DMs lacking the courage to try a game without Alignment.

The players in my campaign who run their own games (2 of them), dropped alignment from their games when they saw how it worked in mine.

Believe me or not, the game does not crumble into Chaos without Ye Olde Alignment Wheel.

>>51856734
>I wasn't attempting to strawman.

Okay. Lets assume you wanted a real conversation, and I will try to parse your post as such.

>an evil species

Species don't "play nice" with each other when they compete for the same niche in the same biomes. By rule of NAP, aka Musical Chairs, the person who owns the land is the winner and whoever comes next is, quite rightly, perceived as invaders and usurpers. The evil humanoid species in D&D people are arguing about have every reason to be evil.

>Genuinely curious to know why you think an entire race that can't form non-murderous societies is realistic.

Nobody said they can't form non murderous societies.

>>51856998
>the game does not crumble into Chaos without Ye Olde Alignment Wheel.
Has literally anyone ever said that it does? Why do you keep inventing these strawmen?

We're telling you that you're missing out on all the stories and dilemmas that only an objective morality provides, while gaining absolutely nothing, because anything you want to do with shades of grey or subjective morality shit is equally possible when playing with alignments and objective moralities.

>wahg paladins and lawful good and violating alignment
Not even a thing in 5E anymore, friendo, and DMs who did that were shit DMs to begin with.

Thinking of allowing Kor from Planeshift Zendikar into my setting as Mountain Elves. Might make them have some Dwarven blood but I can't think of any other cool ideas for them.

What would a good name for an inverse quintessence be? Rather than stop the effects of age it would supercharge them. A torch burns out instantly, a wyrmling turns into an young dragon going-on-adult, iron swords melt like hit by a rust monster.

>>51856736

The outcasts, nurturers and fuckups of orc society (ironically, the ones that keep it going) are far more interesting than the raiders. The reasons orcs have for having a culture that has a heavy emphasis on raiding are also pretty well thought out and have been since 1e UA.

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>>51857038
>We're telling you that you're missing out on all the stories and dilemmas that only an objective morality provides
Name one.
You adhere to this idea that something of value is lost without Alignments, without ever providing an example.

So provide an example.
I am claiming nothing is lost;
You are claiming "something is lost".
The burden of proof at that point is on YOU, not me.

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I thought up a meme build for Monk. Thoughts?

>Kensai Monk
>Use a Lance as your weapon
>1d12 stabs at 10 feet
>Unarmed Strikes at 5 feet (Remember, Two Handed only applies to attacking with that weapon)
>Assuming you roll stats (Costanza.png) well enough you're not ASI starved take Charger (Or more likely Mobile)

>>51856790
>completely god-driven

Maybe you should read the jist of Gruumsh's beef with the other gods, which works perfectly well as a metaphor for the orcish beef with the other races.

>>51857073
"The Drizz'ts of Orc Society are the interesting ones."
Yes, Salvatore, because all the rest of them are bogusly cartoonish evil stereotypes. Thanks for supporting my point.

>>51856913

That's Gnolls. Orcs can be used as mercenaries, or even manipulated, especially by illusions.

>>51857088
>>51856843

>>51857064
Hexessence?

>>51857110
I've been familiar with it for decades.
It's still God-driven. Which is my point.
"God drew bad in a lottery, that is the reason we live in shit, (not that we attempt to farm or build dams or whatever) let's kill all the pinkies for God"

>>51857120
>"The Drizz'ts of Orc Society are the interesting ones."

Except that they aren't, and you can't seem to discuss anything without just strawmanning. Unfortunately.

>>51857108
This made me check the rules for lances again and I thought you always had Disadvantage when unmounted.

Using it as a slightly higher damage reach option on the monk's not a bad idea actually.

>>51856998
>Arguing over a simple tag to identify characters with
Wow, next you'll start arguing about what abilities are technically magical or not

>>51856843
>>51857137
That's not "objective morality," that's "contrived and arbitrary rules that have an effect on a cosmic battle despite being completely retarded."
Mask of the Betrayer convinced me fully that FR's cosmology is iredeemable.

>>51857137
The second example is just someone putting their own life ahead of some other person's child; that dilemma is still a dilemma, it isn't improved by the DM going "But hey Ted, whaaat about your alignment, eh?"

The first example is the DM setting up a bunch of "fucked if you do, fucked if you don't bullcrap where doing the "right thing" may or may not destroy heaven and the angels?"

God, I am glad I don't game with whoever wrote all that stupid shit.

None of it requires Alignment without the DM FORCING Alignment to have a substantial role in it.

>>51857193
True however you could also just PAM/GWM Glaive Monk and be much more effective than an extra +1 damage on average.

Might do it anyway just for flavor.

>>51857177
>Except that they aren't,
>>51857073
>The outcasts, nurturers and fuckups of orc society..... are far more interesting
>The outcasts

I am responding to a statement that directly raisd this point.
I don't think you know what Strawman actually means at this point, so stop chanting buzzwords like a moron. Either argue or shut up.

>>51857231
You get 3 Kensai weapons and My plan was actually Glaive (Reflavored as big hook whip), Longsword and a Longbow.

I might swap the Longsword for Lance until I get GWM.

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>>51857108
Actually as I look at it, something occurs to me.

>Net
>Martial Ranged Weapon
>Ranged Weapon
>Sharpshooter
>Kensai weapons use Monk Unarmed Strike damage if you choose
>Sharpshooter 15 foot 1d4+DEXMOD+10 damage Net attacks

>>51857167
"Oops, we have literally no fucking assets other than strength, speed, nightvision and birth rates, we have nothing anyone else wants and it is entirely easier to get what we want through raiding as well as being a way to bleed off the stress of overpopulation."

I bet the fucking Apaches and other RL cultures that practiced raiding break your brain, huh?

>omg every fucking fictional culture must survive solely off of agriculture no matter how shitty their lands are

>>51857217
Exactly. It's stupid DM trap-laying for the party, as I mentioned here
>>51856998
It's shit DMing masquerading as "setting up a conundrum".
Whoever wrote those either A. doesn't actually run a game, or B. is garbage at it.

>>51857289
Take a Longbow, Net and something else and being a Ranged Kensai with restraining nets and then punch stunning people could be pretty cool.

>>51857278
Drizz't is an outcast + good because his culture is uncontrollably, alienatingly retarded. He still wanders around stabbing shit.

The fuckups in orc society are the engineers, builders, crafters, gatherers (and possibly hunters, can't find any reference to whether that is caste specific). They don't become "nice."

>>51857300
Their are plenty of societies that engaged in raiding for various reasons.
There aren't any who completely subsisted on 24 hour raiding like a horde of insatiable locusts, and you know it.
But that's Orcs for you.
>>51857300
>we have nothing anyone else wants
Ypu just said that they are strong fast and handy at night. So most societies could use their help in a lot of roles. All of which would be "easier" than trying to dig Dwarves out of their fortifications.

Face it, they are a stupidly evil cartoon race.

>>51857352
>engineers, builders
You are thinking of Hobgoblins, mate.
Orc engineering is limited to inventing "a battlewagon" and maybe a shaky ladder for getting over a high wall.

They don't build grain mills, dams and aqueducts.

Was thinking of throwing something fun/flavour on my players before they enter the dungeon is this shit or OK?

If you have both worth and might, yet suffer from a great plight.
Go forth into this terrible tomb, prevail or you will face your doom.
Call forth with wind, tooth and blood. Thine enemies are crushed by flood.

>>51857431
hard to judge without knowing what clever little bit this refers to.

>>51857431
Be prepared for them to linger outside for an hour trying to figure out if it's a puzzle.

>>51857465
But it does not sound totaly retarded at first glance?

You know how players are either its only first glance that matter or they will overanalyze it so hard it does not matter what it says anymore.

>>51857472
It's not a puzzle?
It's just doggerel poetry the DM came up with because he thinks rhyming Doom and tomb is clever?
well that sucks.

>>51857378
>There aren't any who completely subsisted on 24 hour raiding

Orcs don't either, so...

>So most societies could use their help in a lot of roles.

Sure, members of a raiding culture occasionally float off into other cultures, especially after their raiding results in their original culture getting obliterated, and orcs are the same way. It does in fact happen.

It doesn't much happen to orcs, since even if all their raiders die, they still have several, fully combat capable castes that don't much participants in raids.

>>51857490
It is supposed to help them prepare for the fight upahead, and does allow them enuf (together with another thing) to speal themselfes out of a combat with an old ghost. + Maby save a villeage if they are really clever.

>>51857485
If it doesn't help them solve anything it's just distracting rubbish and not atmospheric.
"You will win, unless you don't".
Feh. Save your breath for more descriptions of the surroundings. Be imaginative there.

>>51857409
>You are thinking of Hobgoblins, mate.

"crafters, engineers, and builders" is verbatim from Volo

>>51857521
Thanks then i will scrap it

>>51855465
>Expectations for changes to Mystic?

One time, I wondered to myself if you could just drop a 3.5 psion into 5e, but there ended up being way too much that needed changing to make it work. Hit points, skills, proficiencies (and by extension, save DCs)...

Doesn't help that I was drunk when I was researching this.

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>>51857508
Please just go read Volo's.

Orcs send out continuing rotating waves of raiding groups.

The "support castes" only exist to replenish numbers, guard the location where the fresh new babes are growing into new raiders, and to kill off the weak and abhorrent.

>>51857217
It's the definition of objective morality. The universe has defined Evil and Good (and other alignments) and is arranged along those lines accordingly, with planes comprised of elemental Evil and Good (and other alignments). In order to make the Prime Material important beyond merely being the place where worthless mortals live, the cosmology is structured in such a way that the actions of mortals there influence the power of the alignments and extraplanar entities.

It's not any functionally different than Mystara's system of Immortals and Spheres of Influence, where Gods belong to the Sphere of one of five non-classical elements (Matter, Thought, Entropy, Time, Energy) and seek to expand the power and influence of their Sphere (and whatever ideals they held in mortal life, which may conflict with others of their Sphere and align with the Gods of other Spheres, creating cross-Sphere alliances) by meddling in mortal affairs, because the actions of people on Mystara's Prime Material can empower those Spheres (and said mortals can ascend to Immortality themselves, which also empowers a Sphere).

Your problem is running off a badly-written videogame which invented and retconned all sorts of nonsense.

>>51855678
>The people who spent their real lives venerating Ares did not consider him Evil.
The Spartans liked him. They still had a statue of him in chains.
>"suggests that the martial spirit and victory were to be kept in the city of Sparta."
Meanwhile, that says to me that, like Zeus, you have to keep him under wraps or he'll do something you don't like.

>>51857533
Someone has to assemble that Loot Wagon.
And forge and fix swords and such.
That really doesn't make them a multi-dimensional culture. The rest of Volo's really hammers that home.

>>51857621
Whereas your problem is that you have never looked up the definition of the word "succinct".

>>51857624
>Zeus, you have to keep him under wraps or he'll do something you don't like.
That's literally everyone in Zeus' extended family, up to and including his Wife.

>>51857224
At no point does the DM ever ask "what about your alignment". Characters are free to act however they choose, and they may have rationales that the DM doesn't immediately understand or disagrees with, but the DM is not the arbiter of what the character thinks or wants to do. You are building a strawman again.

The first example is how Forgotten Realms works, flat-out, no setting-up required by a DM. Devils want people to do bad things because it empowers the Lower Planes, angels want people to do good things because it empowers the Heavens, and they'd each very much like to beat the shit out of the others. A character can know this (it's not that hard for adventurers to talk to extraplanar entities, all things considered) and act around it if the Greater Good of all creation is something that matters to him. He may well decide that in this instance, he cannot conscience placing the planes above the lives of so many thousands, or that the temporary empowerment of Evil in this situation may potentially empower the lich to a point where he is far too difficult to defeat later on or create conditiosn where more Evil can easily arise than the Good he maintains.

Admittedly this situation is more of a problem for an extremely powerful Paladin of the classical variety, the sort that no longer exists in 5E. In 3X, a Paladin Falling was a massive hit to the Cosmic Good, to the point that no character cognizant of that fact should ever really think of it as a viable option for "the Greater Good". But shit DMs with shit understandings of the alignment system like you have used it as a stick to bludgeon these players.

>>51857658
you're wrong, faggot, and don't understand
read all the source material

>>51857621
But why should the mortals give a shit what the "universal" definition of "good" is? They didn't come up with this retarded system, they're just trying to live their lives and be good people within the context they understand.
Do they have to consider every action according to universal rules that don't always make sense and were never told to them?

>>51857680
>At no point does the DM ever ask "what about your alignment"
Want me to tell you how I know you've never played D&D?

>>51857627
"multi dimensional" is not an important consideration, plenty of RL predatory cultures weren't "multi dimensional"

>>51857702
>Want me to tell you how I know you've never played D&D?
This, so very this. Clearly one of /tg/'s resident Theorycrafters.

>>51857724
Name a RL predatory culture that wasn't.

Just one will do. Then the rest of us can have a giggle at you.

>>51857724
>When autism digs you a hole you can't get out of. wat do?

>>51857680
>>51857224
What you haven't quite learned about Forgotten Realms yet is that the planes, gods, and other non-PM entities are extremely active forces that routinely intrude on the world and are not so distant as to be unknowable or forgettable. All those low-level Cleric spells that summon creatures from other planes or let you talk to your fucking God are reflections of how involved they are in the day-to-day life of the faithful and other powerful figures of the world, especially rulers, wizards, and adventurers.

People have erroneously played FR and its Gods like the inscrutable or tight-lipped deities of other settings, but they aren't. They are not shy about letting you know what they want you to do, or smacking your ass around when you disappoint them, or rewarding you when you've pleased them. These same people take it for granted that you can go around kicking demon lord ass or go on plane-spanning adventures, but the notion that the Gods (and particularly the Heavens) would ever do anything escapes their notice. I assume that's because they think a proactive "good god force" negates the need for adventurers to do anything, but the "evil god force" and the "evil demon force" never seem to have that concern.

I want to play a kobold, but my DM has told me that the official kobold race isn't weak enough for his tastes, and has instead decided to base it off the NPC kobold. As such, instead of the 4d6 drop the lowest rolls the rest of the players got, even the gnome, I will be getting 3d6 drop the lowest rolls for my stats. His justification is that a Kobold cannot possibly be particularly strong, or smart, or witty, or charismatic, and on those roles even their dexterity won't be that high, even though that's their thing. It's worth noting the gnome has all rolls about 10 (above the average human in my DM's eyes) and goblins/haflings would also get 4d6 drop the lowest rolls.

He claims it's a matter of consistency in the setting.

I'm a little bit very upset about it, but he believes my anger is unfounded. Am I in the wrong?

also idk if he's reading this but hi if he is

>>51857820
No, he's being retarded and you should slap him before finding a new DM.

>>51857820
>3d6 drop lowest
what the fuck
does he gives women -4 strength malus as well?

>>51857820
>Am I in the wrong?
You're both in the wrong.

If he doesn't want you playing a kobold, you should move on to a different character concept.

If he allows you play a kobold, he shouldn't kneecap you in the dumbest way possible and instead work to rebalance the race. You're an adventurer, kobold or no.

>>51857820
>Rolling for stats
>ROLLING FOR STATS
This DM is terrible.

>>51857678
This is true, but I'm joking about how you don't see naked statues of Zeus. He has a toga. That's because making a naked statue of Zeus is just asking for him to use it.

>>51857799
No, you're mistaken, I know exactly how the mythos of Forgotten Realms works, I've read the sourcebooks of several editions, I've even read some of the novelizations.
Which is why I choose not to use it (and the fact that it's completely someone else's campaign world with their old characters being Unvanquishable Sues running shit behind the scenes).

I'm not arguing that it shouldn't work as you state; I'm saying that it's generic, fantasy-lite stuff fit for kids.

I run a Lankhmar/Nehwon campaign that lacks "le ebil humanoids" entirely, although it has some menacing Simorgyan shape-shifters and flesh-crafting Quarmallians in it. But they are Super-Evil "because Gawd told them to be" or anything like that. They have their ambitions, grievances, prejudices and biases just like all the other human kingdoms.

Alignment doesn't figure into it at all. When the Warlock wants your heart to extend his lifespan, it really doesn't matter whether he's just a dick or if he's trying to achieve some goal he feels as noble, not to you.

>>51857702
>But why should the mortals give a shit what the "universal" definition of "good" is? They didn't come up with this retarded system, they're just trying to live their lives and be good people within the context they understand.
That's an excellent thing for the Cleric who understands the true nature of reality to try to explain to the dirty peasant folk.

Again, this has been said repeatedly in this thread and the last by more than just me: people (PCs or NPCs) don't have to know or care about an objective morality system even if it is actively in play.
You could run a game using all the shit that objective morality entails and never actually tell your players this, just writing down the consequences of what they've done and altering the story as a result, and they would think that certain happenings are simply part of the story, not anything that they directly caused to happen. It's the same as not telling the players that their crime was observed by witnesses they failed to notice, or that the clues they left behind were pieced together by the constabulary, and now they're completely surprised when the law or some bounty hunter shows up looking for them.

>wah you've never played D&D
If your DM asks that question, it's one of three things:
1) he thinks you're just being a little shit and acting out of character because goddamnit you really want that +2 sword (and you may be) and he's ASKING what your rationale is, not telling you that you have to do something else
2) he doesn't understand your character, either because he's a dipshit or you've done a poor job of showing who the character is
3) far more commonly, he's a shit DM who understands the alignment system about as well as you and thinks you can't act outside of it and he totally planned for you reacting to this situation in X manner, not Y which you've just chosen

>>51857893
*aren't Super-Evil

>>51857893
>They have their ambitions, grievances, prejudices and biases just like all the other human kingdoms.
That's how it works under objective morality.

>>51857838
>>51857841
>>51857844
The worst part is his main argument is a matter of size, but our gnome has 18 fucking constitution.

His justification for the gnome being normal?

It's a vanilla race, so it's different.

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>>51857907
>acting out of character
>he doesn't understand your character
>he's a shit DM who understands the alignment system about as you

Or how about this: Maybe Rodger the "noblebright" Ranger of Thorn Forest is deep down a bit of a greedy conniver selfish for a magic weapon and the glory he can win with it.

Maybe, instead of you going "No dewd, U R the Lawful Good", this aspect of Roger's personality comes to light and colors the opinions of the other adventurers and any NPCs who witness it.

Honestly it's become clear that your narrow mind and arrogant supposition of Clear Intellectual Superiority that is the problem here.

>>51857978
By definition, it does not.
What's good for one kingdom balances out "bad" for another. It's clear subjective morality, when morality figures into it at all.
At the end of the day it's different cultures trying to thrive. Quarmallians and Kleshites absolutely consider wildly different things to be "Evil" or "Beneficial" based on their history and culture.

Are you confused on the term "Objective"? I find this a lot on 4chan.

>>51857941
Devil's Advocate POV: in 2e, you get level drained if you don't use alignment as a straitjacket

>>51855678
Pretty sure killing people for fun is totally fucked up

We're playing a city watch campaign and I landed an arcana Cleric mostly out pf 90% me interested in its mechanics and 10% party balance.

But now I come across with the fact that were three sessions in and I still havent been able to craft a substancial character (and I sure as shit do not want to do the acolyte cliché again)

Tg you re good at pulling shit out of your ass, pull some for me.

>>51857987
Shit nigga find another table

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In what area does a sorcerer excel?

>>51858051
I don't think I've ever read a historical account of Ares being referred to as the "God of War is Fun".

Got a citation that isn't a fantasy supplement?

>>51857987
he REALLY doesn't want a Kobold in the party, and he's being passive-agressive about it.
Read the mood.
Me, I would just say, no you can't play a Kobold and be done with it.

>>51858089
Wizard-like casting in combat with more nova.

>>51858089
Being more accessible than Wizard.

>>51858089
Manipulation, subtle spell makes for insane face's it is really quite retarded. And if you feel like being qute there is allways twinned buffs (haste) for team.

>>51858127
this.
Sorceror is "Magic with extra style" to Wizard's "I has all the magics"

>>51858089
Twinned Haste, Subtle Counterspell, Warlock multi for Quicken EB
That's it

>>51858150
>Warlock multi for Quicken EB
And then you had to ruin it with Munchkin shittery.

Is Crawford competent?

I'm starting to have serious doubts.

>>51857987
This >>51858117 pretty much.

While, yes, it's kinda bad that they don't just straight-up tell you, I have to admit I've been a bit like this before.

The DM doesn't want to say 'no', but also doesn't really like the prospect, and they try to reach a middleground which ends up being 'You'll be a bit worse than everyone else for choosing this'.

And, you know what, it could work out. You could be a weak kobold that somehow makes itself useful to the party. The DM's happy that you're not playing a powerful version of a low-power race, you're happy you get to do your thing...

Unless you insist on being on a fair and even playing field, in which case why is everyone ven rolling stats in the first place?

>>51858089
Multiclasses for warlock and paladin. Subtle counterspell and twinned haste. Fireballing themself so you can roll a new character.

They don't really excel at anything unless you get powerful homebrew/UA archetypes that trump the normal ones.

While a sorcerer in a party of new players might atcually be better than a wizard, the sorcerer's skill cap is dramatically lower, meaning they thus excel at 'Being easy for newer players in comparison to wizard', I suppose, for what little that means.

>>51858001
How can you be this dense? You insist on repeating this same shitty strawman and ignoring every counter and explanation, like you're suddenly going to be right if you manage to type it out for the tenth time.

What's become clear here is that you not only STILL don't understand the alignment system, you don't even understand what we're talking about anymore. You are still on this idea that being Lawful Good means you can't do something that would be considered non-LG, or that a DM should stop you or punish you. They might, but THAT'S BECAUSE THEY'RE SHIT, as I've explained.

We can go aaaaall the way up here >>51856784
>Maybe you should tell your players "alignment doesn't preclude what you can do, it informs what you would generally do based on all the things you've done in the past". It is a baseline for how a character thinks or--and this is key--the average of several competing ideals.
Boom. So Rodger's LG. That doesn't mean he's never coveted a magic sword and done something shitty for it, it just means that on the average, he does way more Lawful and Good shit, enough to offset whatever else he's done. NPCs and characters don't see your fucking alignment, they don't know that Rodger is a stand-up guy 99.7% of the time unless he has some particular renown. They can see him doing something shitty and form their own opinions. In past editions, when alignment detection was a thing, someone might be capable of scanning him like that and say, "Wow, this must be a rare act for him," and come to whatever conclusion follows from that; maybe they think he really needs the weapon to enact some Greater Good, or the thing was stolen and he's just taking it back, or whatever. Maybe they think this is just the start of his slide into being a shithead.

>>51856283
SAVAGE.

I get really tired of adversarial DMs, and I don't waste my time with their games. Luckily I have my own gaming groups with talented GMs that don't try to fan their egos by shitting on their players by randomly throwing invisible narrative landmines in front of them on a whim.

Oddly, almost every DM who does this shit that I've ever met has been a third edition DM...

>>51858197
>Crawford
>Competent

Lol

>>51858220
At this point YOU sound like you're making the argument for dropping the alignment system.

>>51857907
I feel like you didn't really address my concern. Even if the clerics preach their message all day and everyone knows about it, why should they care?
Let's go back to >>51856843. I'm an adventurer who has to choose between 100 people and 100000. Choosing to save 100000 seems morally permissible. The argument against it is that de-powers angers (and presumably empowers fiends). Why should I care? Why are angels inherently preferable to fiends? Why is Mielikki's philosophy inherently preferable to Lolth's?
There are two possible answers here. The first one is that one side is defined as "good" and the other as "evil," and that universal definitions dictate the side I should support. This is obviously fallacious, because it's an attempted proof by definition.
A stronger case would be "because empowering angels as opposed to fiends is better for mortals in the long run" (I don't know if this is actually true or not, but let's assume it is). In that case, it's in my interest to sacrifice 100000 for completely practical concerns, and not because I choose to follow the universal "good."
At the end of the day, universal "good" is either a hollow proclamation or just a name we give to utilitarianism.

>>51857820
>>51857987
>autistic player meets passive aggressive DM
A match made in heaven.

>>51858287
How is involving the players in a complex, multi-tiered situation adversarial?
They solved a dilemma, reaped some reward and gratitude from it, but it created an unforseen negative circumstance that they can further involve themselves in solving.'

You and ALL CAPS guy are reading more into this than there is, clearly based on past DM traumas.

Anons? Way back in AD&D 2e's day, I loved playing the Undead Master kit.

This was a Wizard Kit where, in exchange for only getting 1 weapon proficiency point and giving up access to Alteration, Divination and Illusion spells, you got all the benefits of being a Necromancer, plus the ability to cast Enchantment spells, plus the Control Undead class feature of an evil Cleric, plus the ability to Control Outsiders via that Control Undead feature.

Now, I know you can reasonably pull off a fascimile of this by just taking the Necromancer Tradition and using the right mix of Enchantment and Conjuration spells, but I was curious:

Do folks think there are more crunchy ways to update an Undead Master to 5e?

If yes, how? It's clearly not right for an Arcane Tradition, too top-heavy, but maybe as a prestige class, or a collection of feats...?

>>51858325
How am I autistic? I just want to play a particular race in this high fantasy roleplaying game we all enjoy, and I wanted to know if I was unjustified in being annoyed about it being kneecapped when similar races are not.

>>51858117
>>51858207
He was "offended" when I implied he might be trying to screw me over, and insisted that if he didn't want me playing it, he would say so.

>>51858044
The cosmology has an OBJECTIVE LIST of what actions are "Good" or "Evil" and considers only immediate, intentional actions. It is not a zero sum system; doing Good (if you're Good) does not always cause cosmic Evil to decrease. The same act isn't always the same amount of Good or Evil, either; an Evil act done by a very Evil person empowers Evil less than that act done by an extremely Good person. This is why Good ideally tries to redeem rather than destroy, and Evil wants to corrupt good people rather than just help bad guys get worse.

Under this, you may do something incredibly Good which unintentionally harms some distant group. That doesn't mean you have caused Evil, because "evil" and "bad" and "not-good" and "sucky" are not Evil. Evil is its own thing.

You killed the lich. That's Good. Oh, but the lich was the sole provider for a bunch of innocent orphans (which he intends to suck the souls out of or something, who cares), and now they starve to death. That's not Evil. It's bad, it sucks for the orphans, but you don't necessarily know it. While you may have caused it, you didn't do it directly; you didn't rob a supply wagon of food and sell it yourself, or lock up the dread castle knowing there were a bunch of children in the basement that will now die. You can know they're there and starving and walk the fuck away and it still isn't Evil, because failure to act is not an act, and what you do directly is all the universe cares about. Now, if you kill the lich by blowing up his stronghold knowing their are orphans in there, you have done a little bit of Evil with your Good.

Most of what you would do to improve one city and harm another wouldn't be Good to begin with, nevermind Evil. Securing exclusive mineral rights directly improves your city, but that's not Good. It's good for your town, it's profitable, it increases their quality of living--but it's not Good. And the fact that the other city can no longer benefit from those rights isn't Evil.

>>51858350
This is something you'd have to sit down with a DM for, you are asking for a homebrewed class rather than something you can tweak out of an existing one.

>>51857431
So does this imply they should just flood the dungeon?

>>51858341
Well the post doesn't seem to indicate that they were rewarded or that anyone was grateful, nor does it indicate that there was any enthusiasm or alternate solution, nor does it indicate that it was intended to be a multi-tiered situation, so perhaps it is you reading too much into it?

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>want to help my players experience and build a good story
>don't want to railroad them

>>51858355
Kobolds are monsters, not player races.

>>51858350
Yes. 5e necromancers are already Undead Masters. That's their thing.

>>51858355
He doesn't want you to play a Kobold, he just wants you to back down so nothing is on him. That's what passive aggressive-ism is all about. It's the worst parts of a woman.

>>51858356
>That's not Evil. It's bad, it sucks for the orphans, but you don't necessarily know it. While you may have caused it, you didn't do it directly; you didn't rob a supply wagon of food and sell it yourself, or lock up the dread castle knowing there were a bunch of children in the basement that will now die.

The universe generally runs on "Bad for some" rather than "Objectively Evil", except for cartoons and simplistic game cosmologies.

>>51858393
If it's a good story, they won't even notice being railroaded

>>51858350
Where is that from? I'm looking at the Complete Wizard's and not seeing it.
Either way, I think your "non-crunchy" solution is good enough. Perhaps ask the DM to exchange your 2nd-level features for a Control Undead feature.

>>51856349
>>51858287
>despite how utterly short sighted my decision making process is, it should always produce results that make everyone happy all the time forever and ever and ever!

The way I run it, if the PCs do something with bad consequences, they have to deal with the consequences.

>>51858393
luckily a story is the least important and most immediately replaceable element of a campaign

if you do not include a story, one will magically appear

>>51858375
No it does not, but it would be interesting to see what happened if they did. I wonder how they would do it.

>>51858393
>>51858407
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edCqF_NtpOQ

>>51858288
Is Mearls competent?

>>51858397
There's an official kobold race.

>>51858404
I'm not sure whether I want to play the kneecapped race anyways just to spite him, or back down so I can actually function as a party member.

>>51858431
I did like Guide to the Anarchs, so i guess atleast to a point

>>51858442
Play kneecapped and grovel your way through life.

>>51858427
That episode was based as fuck.

>>51858393
Have an idea of where you're going, but let player actions shape elements of the story. For example, if they spare an NPC, use that NPC in place of a future ally you have planned. As long as they feel like they're shaping the world, they shouldn't mind engaging in your story.
And if they don't seem to like the goals they're given, be flexible and open to changing. Because your story can be the best there is but you need a receptive audience.

>>51858422
How I would do it without magic.

1. Find nearby river
2. Begin creating a trench, digging or using natural rocks/blockades.
3. Use said trench to direct itself to the opening of the dungeon.
4. Reap the rewards of the drowning or drowned dungeon inhabitants.

Obviously depends on geographical placement and what not, but very doable with a good ol' shovel and pickaxe.

Shape Water cantrip also works.

>>51858393
Start the campaign with a lot of different quest givers.

Like they're in the tavern, they ask if there's anyone looking for work, and the bartender says that a prominent merchant was looking for an escort to the other town, the local baron had recently put out feelers, and the bartender's brother has a job if they're interested.

No matter who the players pick, have the quest giver betray them and run off with their paycheck. The questgiver will naturally become the BBEG of whatever story you want, and the players will never realize they're being railroaded into playing through your story because their entire motivations will be over the top revenge for being cheated out of 50 silver. They will bring down kingdoms for that coin, in time.

>>51858467
I actually don't even get the official "Grovel and cower" ability thing that grants advantage to allies, because that's from the race, not the NPC.

>>51858369
Eh, I wouldn't say that. It's clearly a wizard in basis. Honestly, other than some minor quibbles about not being as good with enchantment/conjuration spells as the respective specialists, I figure you could probably get much the same flavor by letting them halve the time/cost to scribe Enchantment & Conjuration spells as well as Necromancy ones and by letting them use Control Undead on Fiends and Elementals.

>>51858414
It's from The Complete Book of Necromancers - yes, they did an entire spin-off to the Complete Wizard.

Actually, Necromancers in 5e already get Control Undead. Just not until level 14.

>>51858442
Yes, and?
That doesn't make them less of a monster race.
That doesn't change the fact that anything else than Elf/Human/Dwarf/Halfling requires specific veto from your GM depending on setting.
Did you perhaps miss the big fucking "WARNING WARNING monstrous characters are really fucking rare and probably shouldn't be allowed" blurb in Volo's?

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>>51858393
You are never going to have the hours and hours and hours to create a completely sandbox game that's more immersive than "We explore this hex" "OK let me roll for what's in it".

What you want to do is create a convincing setting with engaging factions it it, have a short list of problems facing the factions, from Critical/Dangerous to "some pain in the ass we'd be happy to have resolved", and let the characters know some of them and find out others.

Don't be afraid to make 2 or three of them (the ones you have prepared stuff for) seem especially rewarding for the party. But also be prepared to ad-lib the other stuff, even if it's just a bit of color and NPC interaction on their journey to the Tomb they aren't powerful enough to get into at this point.

Make up 6-10 interesting NPC with some personality to them; they don't need a pile of stats, they aren't going to be fighting.

Throw in some neat trivia/details each session involving where they are at "Those cat-sized beetles are actually very vital to the local agriculture". Don't overwhelm the party with errata. Heck, you might find a way to tie the beetles into a later adventure, which will make you seem subtle and savvy.

Don't get bogged down in the mechanics; let players do stuff they should be able to do without rolling, save the rolling for difficult and dramatic.

Don't let the see you sweat. Don't apologize for anything.

>>51858442
Play the kneecapped race and keep attempting to shine. When you inevitably get everyone killed, blame the DM.

>>51858502
Did they make Necromancer a class in that, or is it just way too much elaboration on Necromancer wizards?
Either way, I never even knew it existed and now my collection feels incomplete. Q.Q

>>51855717
>>51855802
Could you give a quick rundown what a "Nuclear Druid" is? New to 5e and thinking about rolling a druid as my next character.

>>51858543
Don't.

It's absurd cheese and shouldn't be played.

>>51858502
>It's from The Complete Book of Necromancers - yes, they did an entire spin-off
They know how many prospective edgelords get into their products.

>>51858543
It's a shitty meme build that requires level 20 for full potential.

>>51858543
It's an overpowered build of a character that is a direct result of Crawford not knowing how to word things correctly.

In the Unearthed Arcana Druid pdf (just google that you'll find it), the Circle of Twilight Druid gets a feature that lets him add damage to spells. The way it's worded, you can combine it with Magic Missile to deal roughly 1500 damage a round.

>>51858393
Railroading is mostly a meme. Short of throwing impossible shit in their way to stop them nobody will give a fuck.

>>51858564
>>51858543
Nuclear Druid, that is, not Druid as a whole.

>>51858442
Become kobold. Be a moon druid so you don't desperately need your stats so much. Use spells for utility and wildshape for a load of hp + decent combat stats and such.

>>51858303
>Why should I care? Why are angels inherently preferable to fiends? Why is Mielikki's philosophy inherently preferable to Lolth's?
You care because you are of a culture whose morality aligns more strongly with the cosmic standard, the objectively-defined, elemental Good and Evil. You prefer angels to fiends because angels heal the sick, punish the wicked, make sunshine and nice trees grow, and deliver mirth. You don't like fiends because you don't want to live in a fire-scarred hellscape where grotesque cancerbeasts flay the flesh off their living slaves and provide them with the bare minimum of ichor-laden sustenance to keep up what little utility they have to the Dread Hell Lords or whatever the fuck. You like Mielekki because sustainable foresting practices ensure that future generations will have lumber and you aren't driving all the cute forest critters extinct or pissing off the guardians of nature who'll beat your shit in, and you dislike Lolth because you're a man, you hate spiders, and you think Drow are faggots (all Elves really, but Drow especially).

Now maybe you're an evil female Drow, don't know what the fuck a tree is, and the screams of the damned and tortured are music to your ears. You are cool with drinking demon blood instead of pure water, sunshine hurts your eyes, and all the angels want to smite your shit for all the terrible shit you've been doing all this time. You would prefer not to be enslaved by demons and devils when they take over, but that's why you're going to use their gifts and do a bunch of evil shit to get strong enough to resist total subjugation, maybe carve yourself out a nice patch of Hell where there are devils to serve YOU rather than the other way around. Anything that helps out the angels is not really "good" to you, but it's still Good. Honestly, it sucks that the "good" guys got to name the cosmic alignments; you would have preferred Sissy Socialism vs. Independent Self-Actualization.

>>51858505
If it wasn't allowed then why wouldn't he tell me that?

I'm not the fuckin' autist here, dude. All I was asking was whether or not it was a justified nerf and I was just misunderstanding, or if other people thought it was absurd as I thought it was.

>>51858574
I already thought about Druid, but it pisses me off that the only way to viably play the race is to be that race for as little time as possible.

>>51858489
Speaking of the NPC, its stats would be literally impossible with the system your DM is proposing

>>51858543
>> 51850576

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if I came to the table and my DM gave me shit for playing anything other than the human/elf/dwarf trinity I'd leave and let him keep jerking off to tolkein like he clearly wants to

>>51858540
Elaboration. It's all about expanding the library of necromancers, both wizardly and priestly; new kits, new spells, new magic items, how they interact with the world around them, stuff like that.

It's essentially a combination of Complete Wizard and Complete Cleric, just for necromancers and death priests.

>>51858589
It's obviously not justified. Either tell him to fuck off or do something else.

>>51858589
Your DM is a passive aggressive woman that probably shouldn't be DMing in the first place and you're desperately clinging to some autistic Kobold character even though it's obviously not going to be a good fit for the group/campaign.

Either man up and roll something non-autistic or find a new group. I'd go for the latter if I were you, maybe DM yourself if it's a group of friends you really want to keep playing with.

>>51858615
fuck
idk how to link older threads but in the archive the last /5eg/ had a post abt it. just search nuclear on the thread.

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>>51858619
And no one would question your right to do so.
My Lankhmar campaign is all variant humans with subtle tweaks between cultures.
Everyone is happy in it, but I'd never expect you to sit there unhappy with your options.

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Have you upheld the NAP today, /5eg/?

>>51858699
This is getting quite silly.
"I want to play like this, but it has to be a Paladin cuz I like their mechanics".

>>51858580
>>51858303
>A stronger case would be "because empowering angels as opposed to fiends is better for mortals in the long run"
It's also possible that you don't care about the long run. Perhaps you don't know or believe about the whole reincarnation deal. FR, as reality, is full of short-sighted people (even those who believe in their immortal souls and an omniscient, infallible deity who punishes the wicked for all forever of an eternity) who value the pleasures and power of the hear and now over the afterlife or the well-being of people who aren't them.

But MOST mortals have a "good" that aligns with Cosmic Good. They might consider a few Evil things to be good or simply not evil (say, slavery), but their beliefs on the subject don't change reality. belief actually does change reality but not at the "what is Good and what is Evil" scale; that's hard code, man Not every good person or culture is going to see all Good acts as necessarily good for them. That doesn't make it not Good. There are many competing definitions and levels of knowledge.

>I'm an adventurer who has to choose between 100 people and 100000. Choosing to save 100000 seems morally permissible. The argument against it is that de-powers angers (and presumably empowers fiends). Why should I care?
You don't necessarily have to. You might not know. Most people who aren't planar scholars or theologians wouldn't. Some Clerics might not even be all that read-up on it. Pre-5E Paladins would, they might try to spread it around, but even those who hear it may not necessarily believe or care. And even if you are a guy who does know and care, you might very well say that 100,000 is too much, that's your line; you're only mortal, you can't really hold yourself to the same infallible standard as the angels (and even they sometimes "Fall" for reasons like this). Angelic justice in FR can also seem unnecessarily harsh and cruel and "evil", because they're operating on higher scales.

>>51858699
I laughed out loud at the "Turn Scoundrels" feature.

>>51856669
That's what I did in the first campaign I ran. Orcs were rare, wandering people because most had been slaughtered in devastating wars against the proper realms.

>>51858742
You know, I'm the one that started this whole debate, and I'm put off by both of your Walls of Text. You don't have to make every post a chapter. Just sayin.

How can you call any God good when they all allow the wall of the faithless to exist?

>>51858699
Not gonna lie, it's better than I thought a Paladin of Capitalism would be.

>>51858729
there really isn't much sillier than the vow of the ancients (its flavor, not the mechanics)

>>51858729
Not really. In 5e, a paladin is nothing but a warrior with such devotion towards whatever ideal or god they serve, that they manifest supernatural powers.

If there's something a character can be devoted to, then you can have a paladin of that. It's why you've got stuff like Oath of the Ancients, which is already thematically covered by druids.

>>51858778
good people say Good is good because they like most Good things
evil people say Evil is good because they like most Evil things
whether Good is good or bad depends on your views but those are the names someone gave 'em and those are the definitions of the words good and bad

also everyone is a faggot for not being able to read for 30 seconds straight
>wah i want an answer but i don't want a detailed one
>gimme something terse that i can be a pedantic twit over

>>51858809
Unless you're a Treachery Paladin in which you gain your power from being an asshole.

>>51858699
Interesting.

I find the most interesting part of any Paladin is which values they hold to be the most sacred, and which values they are willing to compromise in pursuit of those Highest Values.

How does a Paladin of Free Commerce react to a market paralyzed by an anti-competitive monopoly?

Positively, because Muh Capitalism?

Negatively, because a stratified market hostile to newcomers cannot by "free" by any sensible definition?

>>51858787
You can't. That's why I'm arguing FR's "objective good" has no inherent value.

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>>51858792
>Paladin of Capitalism
Also known as "that guy who will be broke sometime next year, as he tries to operate in an idealistic system everyone else laughs up their sleeve at."

This is like challenging Beholders to fisticuffs.
There is no honor in trade, just shrewdness.

>>51858829
So kind of like the Sith?

>>51858830
Probably negatively - a monopoly is good for the guys on top, but the flavor seems to be clearly stating that keeping down the honest hardworking underclass is a bad thing.

>>51858848
Communist detected, prepare for smiting.

>>51857431
Make it mean something and it's fine as is

>>51858865
Sith gain their power from being Emo, not assholes.

>>51858829
Yeah, Oath of Treachery and Oathbreaker Paladins are the two exceptions.

>>51858787
The carrot doesn't catch enough people (demonstrably), so a stick is needed. Without the cycle of reincarnation that's sped along by the Gods, everything grinds to a halt and we've got total entropy and nothing, and most people would rather there be Something than Nothing.

Basically it's Ao's fault. He's making most of the rules.
Also, you've got to remember that Good != your concept of good. There are Good things you won't like. Drink your fucking medicine; it tastes evil, but it's Good for you.

>>51858570
>Requires level 20 for full potential
Doesn't everything?

>>51855544
Play a different fucking system unless it's a jokeish game.

PAM Oathbreaker paladin is pretty good for combat-only, especially if you get lots of long rests.
Lore wizard.

>>51858881
I thought Sith were expected to betray their master eventually and shit. Sounds like a Treacherydin to me.

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>>51858871
You think the Free Market operates on Fair and Transparent rules.
That's so fucking cute I could pinch you.

>>51857678
I want to cum inside Hera!

>>51858829
Treachery paladins seem primarily based off the original Dmag antipaladin

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>>51858699
Fuck off, bourgeois.

>>51858887
Since when does FR have reincarnation as an inherent universal mechanic? What's the source for that?

>>51858904
You're an idiot. Free Markets are by definition transparent. Every economist that's not a shill will tell you it's the government's job to make rules that encourage transparency.

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Does the bludgeoning damage from Kensei allow me to add my modifier to damage? If so, does this mean I can live my dreams as a ninja who swings his kusarigama(whip) around?

>>51858604
That was shot down with a combination of "It's level two" and "I modify all the NPCs so looking up stats on them is useless"

>>51858649
You just kinda sound like a piece of shit and an autist yourself, if I'm honest.

>>51858887
>let's punish people for taking themselves out of the reincarnation cycle by taking them out of the reincarnation cycle and torturing them eternally
>good

No.

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>>51858935
>Free Markets are by definition transparent
They are Free to be as transparent as the people controlling them (by dint of wealth and power) desire them to be.

Good lord babby, you need to swim back to whatever board serves as your usual cradle.

Even Lolbertarians don't spout this level of nonsense.

>>51858965
We're all pieces of shit on this site you fucking autist. Kill yourself.

>>51858987
>we
>speaking for everyone on an entire site
You okay there buddy?

You're starting to seem a little angry. Who hurt you?

>>51858935
Reincarnation into the extraplanar realms, not back onto the Prime Material. Though that happens sometimes. The whole point of the Wall is to blackmail everyone into worship so that the Gods stay powerful and can do shit, in return for your soul not languishing forever. The God you liked best will come by and pick you up from limbo daycare and carry you to his heavenly realm (or whatever other realm) where you can do shit useful for them that you presumably liked in life. Alternatively, assholes run up from the Hells and say, "Hey, no one's coming for your soul, but we can make you a fucking slug or something and if you work real hard you might be a balor some day. Wouldn't that be rad?"

And sometimes planes themselves just spontaneously yank you over if you embodied their values more than any particular God's. A CN Elven Rogue fuckstick who put a sufficient number of bombs in everyone's pants might just pop into being as a slaad in Limbo.

>>51858979
Perfect Information is literally one of the basic assumptions of perfect competitions. Anyone with 10 seconds and internet access can find that out. Eat shit, capitalist shill.

>>51859001
Go to gitp if you want a fucking hugbox.

>>51858965
We've got a dedicated shitposter here that goes off on nonstandard races all the time.

>>51859024
Oh, I didn't know. He's kind of adorable, in a way.

>>51858974
Whoever defined what Good and Evil were didn't write down anything about the Wall so it's neutral at worst. They also didn't say shit about keeping existence going.

Good and Evil on the cosmic level are actually pretty narrowly defined. Most things that people think are merely good or evil don't actually rise to Good or Evil.

Why can't you turn an intelligent weapon into your bound weapon as a bladelock?

Just because it would piss off the sword, or is there some balance issue I'm not seeing?

>>51859024
We've got dedicated shitposters for damn near everything. Like Autismo.

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>>51859006
>Muh Ideal and Perfect Market

Yes, and society would totally work like Smurf Village too, if we could just replace all human involvement with little blue faeries.

Go smoke some another bowl of granola, hippy.

>>51859040
>Just because it would piss off the sword
Yes. Pocket dimensions are the most boring thing in the universe, no sword would willingly let itself become bound to you.

Does anyone know of a program that would accomplish the following

>I can put a map as the background
>If someone scrolls over or clicks something on the map a text box opens up with information that I have written
>The person using the program can, of course, close the text windows

>>51858979
>using a Ferengi in a reaction image about ancrap stuff
>even though they are best known for having a space pope who wanders around, ordering people to spend their money how he likes as punishment giving good deals if he likes

I got the whole "Yankee traders" (wink wink) part but I didn't get how the "the capitalist guys have a government that arbitrarily tells you what to buy randomly, not even under the pretense of it being a tax" fits into the metaphor

it was probably just weird shit just to make weird stories

>>51859043
It's almost like people have opinions and voice them on an anonymous slant-eyed ricepaper conversation platform.

>>51859050
>Hippies supporting markets
Ok, now I know you're just a sad troll. Go take 10 minutes of an econ class the next time you're not sucking dick.

>>51858935
>>51859003
And when a new person is born with a soul and that soul wasn't from a previously-incarnated entity, it's taken from some waiting soul in a plane. The Gods oversee this process.

A good example is Moradin and the rest of the Dwarven pantheon. They decided there weren't enough Dwarves (because all the ladies got infertile for some reason the Gods couldn't or didn't want to fix, which necessitated a WHOLE lot of dwarf-on-humanpeasantgirl action) and came up with this thing called the Thunder Blessing. Now whenever a dwarf dies they chop the soul in two and shuck it back down, so dwarf ladies are fertile as fuck and popping out twins and triplets like you ain't never seen. this is all a scheme to keep Dwarven Social Security solvent for another 4,000 years

>>51859050
You're missing the point. The Free Market paladin knows the world doesn't work like a perfect free market - that's the problem he's trying to FIX.

>>51858917
I like this, if only because it can be used well by genuine "communist totally works, it just hasn't been done properly" guys and it can also be used by the asshole "communism is the name i use for my dictatorship" guys as the same time.

You can use Aura of Solidarity to defend your comrades, or you can use Aura of Solidarity to divide the damage to receive among a large number of meat shield characters, as just one example.

>>51859037
I see no proof that Good and Evil are defined anything like you see it.

>>51859043
The hell did I ever do to you, kid?

>>51859037
An evil God created the wall iirc, and liked it because it allowed him to make more people suffer.

>>51859070
He's basically the race's CEO with religious trappings, macromanaging (and occasionally micromanaging) the firm (in this case entire race's) investment strategies.

>>51858619
There is something to be said about stubborn DMs. However, if your DM tells you the setting is based around a handful of races and you come along wanting to play some obscure race from an unrelated supplement, then you're the problem, not him.

>>51859081
>dwarf-on-humanpeasantgirl action
this is my fetish

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>>51859086
>- that's the problem he's trying to FIX.
On the plus side, he's going to drum up lots of capital for the Slayers Guild members who are going to engage in the totally legimate enterprise of hiring themselves out to all the other Merchants who want this idealistic moron dead.

It will provide some comfort to the Paladin to know he was murdered as part of legitimate business, I guess.

>>51858699
>objective worth
top zozzle

>>51859155
It reads like an Econ paper written by a 13 yr old girl who's alway's used Daddy's credit card.

>>51855465
Would Barb 1 / Samurai --> be a good way to make a kimono-wielding vagabond?

And another thing..! To actually reduce the amount of 1st level dips, would a feat to gain a 1st level feature from any class (save for spellcasting, that is for Magic Initiate) sound like anything? The restriction of it is that any any abilities tied to character level are forever locked to 1. I don't think it would get TOO cheesy as an option. Like, Unarmored Defenses from Monk and Barb would probably be some of the better picks there are, along with fighting styles from fighter. Although some UA things could get a little ridiculous (Looking at you, Hexblade), but the idea isn't all bad, I reckon? Most 1st level dips are for a single feature only, like my Barb dip. While Rage is nice and flavorful, Unarmored Defense is really what I'm trying to get. Missing out on my fourth attack for that kind of sucks, although Samurai can pretty often get a fourth attack in with the Rapid Strike.

Also, why can't Samurai use Longsword as a finesse weapon? One would think that KATANA FORDED ONE MIRRION TIMES would be their weapon of choice.

Well, I would then probably make an Odachi-wielding Samurai. Oh well.

Literally fourth character on the queue in which I would play them. Unless a new campaign pops up somewhere or one of my other characters die.

>>51859182
How in Zeus' name would you "wield" a Kimono?

>>51859199
Whoops. I'm getting tired.

NOW WE NEED A SAMURAI WIELDING HIS KIMONO AS A WEAPON.

>>51859182
What could possibly give you the impression that Samurai are Dex-based fighters?
Your Animes?

>>51859081
>having sex with a dwarf

Fucking repulsive

>>51859017

>reeeeeeeeee I know I'm the asshole but I won't admit to it, gtfo

Y'know what? I think Gishes piss me off. Y'got your Bladesingers and your Valor Bards, and they get to be full casters while hitting people with swords, hell you can get higher AC with a Bladesinger than you can a fighter.

And the reason this pisses me off is because a caster gets a million ways to approach encounter, combat and social, while a martial only gets a couple of options. And then y'give casters a way to be comparable at hitting things with a stick as a martial.

I mean sure, you have the half-casters, but I feel like the level of fightyness a Bladesinger gets is much more than the amount of casting potential a ranger gets.

I feel like Cleric's "Have martial weapon proficiency and eventually some d8s to your weapon strike" is the fairest form of caster-fighter fusion, as well as the fighty cantrips.

>>51859231
I'm an asshole, you're an asshole.
We're assholes. Deal with it or gtfo.

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>>51859224
Go fuck yourself.

>>51859182
Kenseis have unarmored defense, can use katanas with dex, and can beat the shit out of people with kimonos.

>>51859182
I feel like Unarmored Defense and Fighting Styles are the only two that could reasonably be made into feats. Expertise as a feat would be ridiculous, for example.

UD takes a long time to outshine just wearing armour, so making it require a feat for non-barbs just serves to push that back even further. Don't see it becoming overpowered.

>>51859224
You don't understand, you are the dwarf. You're having sex with a human peasant girl.

>>51859199
Improvised weapon, 1d4.

>>51859241

>if I say you're an asshole it means it's true

Whatever you say, buddy.

>>51859278
>if I say you're an asshole it means it's true

Sure thing, my dude.

>>51859233
It's okay, Anon, they made martial gishes too! Just look at the Eldrtich Knight!

It's a Fighter who can solve all sorts of social and exploration problems with the DIZZYING array of spells he can cast, like Shield, and Absorb Elements, and if he ever reaches demigod status at level 13, Haste!

>>51859181
Yeah m8
A paladin of free trade would just be the fluff of a anti-tyranny/liberation oath or something
Like "stop drowning those people in taxes, dark emperor" or "knock down this lobbying for extra regulations, foolish merchant guilds"

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>>51859276

>>51859221
>number one weapon that samurai used was the bow
You tell me.

>>51859294
Fucking exactly! It's bullshit.

Where's figther's archetype where it gets something approximating the utility a caster has? The closest you gets is PDK which lets you face.

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>>51859290

I've dealt with people that have your condition. It's alright, I understand.

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I just want to be able to deliver spell damage through a weapon attack

>hey instead of just casting fireball you can punch/slash/shoot them with an arrow for weapon damage + 8d6, also it explodes just like fireball would anyway

>>51859332
They didn't have to min-max Dex to hit shit with a bow, considering them spent most of their time shooting peasant troops with straw armor.

>>51859343
>if they're not sucking my dick they're autistic!

Calm down there, asshole.

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>>51859275
I slay myself in the hopes of coming back as a human or better

>>51859342
>Where's figther's archetype where it gets something approximating the utility a caster has? The closest you gets is PDK which lets you face.

Wrong edition pal. 5e is Revenge For Fucking JOCKS Ever Being Worthwhile in 4th Edition Edition.

>>51859359
Closest you're gonna get is Arcane Archer.

>>51859375
I second the motion of your killing yourself.

So I had a dumb thought late last night:

What if we brought back paragon paths and epic destinies from 4e, as an option for high-power games? You get the benefits alongside your normal class levels; you pick a path at level 8, which gives you bonuses and new abilities up to level 15. At level 16, you get an epic destiny which does much the same, but on a more powerful scale. Allowing you to mix and match class/paragon/destiny combos would add a staggering layer of customization if done right, too.

>>51859388
The Arcane Archer from UA was such a letdown. Where's the arrow imbuing? Phasing arrows? Heat-seeking arrows?
Not to mention the lack of FUCKING SPELLCASTING. It's just a shitty battlemaster clone.

>>51859375
You come back as a bralani. There is no greater shame for a Dwarf.

>>51859406
>What if we brought back paragon paths and epic destinies from 4e, as an option for high-power games?
For the theorycrafters I assume?
Fully half the people on /tg/ don't even have a game,
another 40% are transients from one online game or table, never getting to/past level 10.

No one gets to Epic boons.

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>>51859427
I feel you.

>>51859449
>he thinks failure to complete a game is all that stops people from reaching 10
Four of my last five campaigns have ended with plot completion at 7-9.

>>51859255
That's true. I could ask the GM to refluff some feat (such as magic initiative) as Unarmored Defense instead. There are feats that do much worse.

>>51859251
I was gonna start talking about level 20 builds, but...
>Level 20
>Ever
So yeah, not a bad option for a Dex-Fighter. Double-UA multiclassing is pretty hnngh though. Although, they are relatively similar in fluff and don't really synergize in any broken way. It would just allow me to do what I want.

>>51859388
>>51859359
Or Archfey Warlock with Moon Bow.

Also, here's my shitty homebrew that allows that shit: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rymjKpUjvx

>>51859386
The majority of nova damage "look how much damage I can do at level 20" type build have at least a couple points in fighter.

Why does bladesinger get so much AC? It's like they don't even care, and that's not even a UA fuckup.

>>51859480
>Someone can't into multi-layered storytelling that continues to evolve.

So you killed that evil Lich, and whelp that was it. And I never said they quit early, in fact it's usually scheduling/life drama that breaks up campaigns.

>>51859406
I tinkered with something like this, but instead of modding the leveling, it was adding to it. 21 to 30 are Paragon, and 31 to 40 is epic. There would be bounded accuracy tiers for each tier of play, such that someone in a tier below the challenge would have a significantly hard time hitting.

>>51859505
Oh yeah, 2 levels at most.