Would you?

Best girl, needs Kreia route.

>>51828898
Yes.

>>51828898
Without a second thought.

>>51828898
Would I what?

>>51829058
Would you advocate her philosophy of the force. Insidious Force

>>51829091
I'm going to need you to elaborate on this whole "Insidious force" thing.

>>51828898
10/10 philosophy
8/10 voice acting
1/2 hands

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>>51829136
Darth Traya, a female Force User living during the Old Sith Wars, believed the Force to be akin to some sort of deceptively sinister, indifferent god. She pointed to the numerous wars fought by countless Force users, as proof that the Force cared nothing for the lives it consumed, so long as balance was achieved. This philosophy emphasized the belief that neither the light nor the dark side was truly superior to the other, and that if people were to be truly free, they needed to be less dependent on the Force. This was generally a very unpopular theory with both the Sith and the Jedi, and this practice disappeared with Traya's death.

>>51829201
As presented by you, I can see a definite draw. How did she define the balance it saw? Like, is the light side balanced and the dark side an imbalance, or is a ratio of lightside to darkside practitioners?

Furthermore, can one be a light or dark side practitioner independent of being good or evil?

Only after much deliberation and understanding of the consequences my actions will bring about.

>>51829058
>>51829451

Apathy is death. Even worse than death.

>>51829328
"See it through the eyes of the Exile"

>>51829470
"The Jedi who fall are the most dangerous of all."

>>51829494
Ok! then my final anwser is a resolute NO!

Fuck this bitch. If I've got shit to do you know that I'll be using every tool to my advantage.

>>51829328

It was a video game and she didn't explain shit good

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>>51829568
"Take the greatest Jedi Knight, Sith Lord, strip away the Force, and what remains? They rely on it. Depend on it, more than they know. Watch as one tries to hold a blaster, as they try to hold a lightsaber, and you will see nothing more than a woman – or a man. A child."

>>51829620
Let me reply in kind.

Take a doctor, a peasant and a governess and cut their heads off. And then they're dead. D. E. A. D. People tend to need a head to keep living. If they dont have a head, they die.

Maybe its reductionist, but from where i'm sitting her argument looks like her saying "If you take away the thing they practiced for years, then they can't do the thing that they practiced."

I think that's a pretty bad argument because its a truism.

>>51829755
A teaching- any teaching- only achieves worth in how it is practice- in the effort, the struggle of the one who holds it. Such a teaching does not make a Jedi or a Sith. And at times, it makes them much, much less than they are."

>>51829796
That's lame as well. Teaching finds value in application. Good teaching is measured in efficiency in the same way that poetry is.

>>51829755
Swinging a Lightsaber like a mad man doesn't give you much insight into inter planetary diplomacy or economy. Or to go further, creating a stable leadership and governance that will last the centuries. Jedi or Sith that play at issues that impact the entire glaxaly and depending on 'the Force' to give them instinctual direction are simply creating more issues and larger conflicts bringing in the pseudo-religious divisions of light and dark side.

>>51829755
>>51829796
Its also worth mentioning that being a jedi or Sith is not really a profession so much as it is a state of being or a philosophy or maybe a religion.

They are defining of the self and in universe, they give the practitioner tangible powers.

Imagine if Christians and some kind of demon worshipers had fought a never ending war that ranged in scale from world war to cold war levels of espionage and they had actual powers like we see divine beings wield in the bible. Than an atheist comes along and promises they can end the horseshit, but the caveat is that they might unmake creation in the process.

>>51829993
"One quickly learns, that the Jedi Code does not have all the answers. If you wish to understand all aspects of the Force, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal."

Is The Force sentient?
I'd always assumed it was what the name implied.
A force.
A non-sentient, law of the universe. Like gravity, electromagnetism, or strong force.
Something that's just there, and provides the rules and basis for reality.
It's not exactly indifferent, because it can't care anyway.
Am I wrong?
INB4 some one just says "yes"
INB4 Someone does the INB4

>>51830030
depends on the force user philosphy. During the last thousand years of the Old republic, many Jedi believed in the Living Force, a less pessimistic version of the veiw of Kreia/Treya

>>51829755
Cutting someone's head off is a terrible analogy to cutting one off from the force. A much, much better analogy would be blinding someone. Kreia's argument is essentially that when someone is blinded, their initial struggles reveal how unhoned their other senses are.

A bit of an aside, but Mob Psycho 100 might be a good example of Kreia's ideas in practice. A central theme is to never rely on a single talent and instead actively seek to broaden and improve oneself.

>>51830030
At it's core, it's based on Doc Smith's Arisians, noncorporeal aliens that seek to control the events of normal spacetime in opposition to their evil counterparts, the Eddorians (aka the Dark Side).

Lucas tweaked the hell out of the baseline and threw in a ton of Eastern mysticism, some of which make for a somewhat contradictory interpretation of what exactly the Force is. But with EU shit like the Whills, and the Force "gods" in the cartoon, it's pretty clear the Force is a sapient entity of *some* kind or another.

>>51830013
But using the Dark Side makes you a huge dick. Besides, the Jedi seem pretty accepting of being unable to hold all the answers in their path through the Force. It was only when they began to stray and hold onto power that they lost the galaxy to the Sith in the Clone War.

I'll agree that the Jedi and the Sith aren't the only ways to understand the Force. I always felt they were too stagnant because of their dominance, not just in-universe but in the franchise. That's one of the main reasons I think KOTOR is overhyped. What does Kreia say about the Sith?

>>51830102
Feeling the will of the Force always implied it was somewhat sentient to me, but more like a very dispersed collective sentience

>>51830157
entity, collective;
tomato, tomato plant.

>>51830030
My impression was that the force has some sort of will given how much they talk about letting it guide your actions.

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>>51830080
>many Jedi believed in the Living Force, a less pessimistic version of the veiw of Kreia/Treya
Then Jedi became something like Jedi From Kotor 2. With the clone wars tearing them Asunder, Sith came back, A Second Jedi Purge which exterminated all but Two, Sith Taking Over the Galaxy again. And then After The Jedi are brought Back and "Balance" (Subjective here) is restored. The galaxy went to shit faster than the eye could blink. With the new Republic not even lasting a Generation (EU Legends) or Being fucking Retarded (Canon) A Third Jedi Purge which Either Wiped half (EU) Or left Luke Being the Last Of The Jedi (Canon). And then there's war that will leave the Galaxy in Ashes (Vong) or About to be (Canon). At this Point I just want to see how far can this go.

>>51829328
No she didnt really think the distinction mattered. It wasnt that the force would stop at nothing to kill sith it was the force would stop at nothing to deal with unruly things.

Fandom furthered the idea where Light and dark were limited by SEVERITY like the depths of a ocean rather then actual sides of a coin.

So while the light side only used their will to power the force, by throwing your emotions into it the force had more power over you. Which is why all sith inexplicably, while feeding on a force of short lived emotions and impulsive, will inevitably attempt to carve a empire. Empires that are all aesthetically similar.

Jedis and sith hated the idea because it implied they were both pawns and the force users are too proud to admit such faults.

>>51830223
I like how the new movie never really addresses how a struggling fragment of the empire managed to completely outdo the Death Star, the single grandest feat of engineering in the known galaxy.

I also like how they pretty much just gloss over the fact that the main system of the New Republic got blown the fuck up and Leia's PMC was apparently the only military force left.

>>51830347
as far as no military, except for the Palpatine years the Republic basically didn't HAVE a military for centuries. For that civilization, no army is business as usual.

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>>51830347
Its Nothing but a trainwreck. How Leia and Han, Handle their Son was just plain idiotic. The Rebels Recreating the old Republic with the Sames Flaws is Another. People not Taking the remnants of the Empire Seriously is just going pants head retarded. They Learned absolutely nothing. The Mind Boggles.

>>51830347

There is one scene in the movie I love.

Im paraphrasing but they send the plans to the base and the commander goes
>Look these guys made a seriously fucked up station.
>Oh like the death star.
>No no no. The commander smirks. "See this is the death star, this is starkiller base. See? It's bigger"

That's the whole fuckin movie. "See its not episode 4. It's bigger."

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>>51830999
It really does feel that way. They better do some derailing before they have ESB pt II and RoTJ pt II.

>>51830999
>>51831053
They Did what George Lucas could not. They Ruin Star Wars.

>>51831074
I honestly liked star wars. Like all of it.

Even Jarjar, even shitty eu books. The whole vision dazzled me. I can't NOT respect someone who hired a sword expert just to make lightsaber combat forms.

I even liked a lot of VII, I mean Finn was funny. It just... it wasnt a star wars move. Or rather, I could not for the life of me figure out why Greedo was unforgivable but this saved the fuckin series.

The whole "There are not six movies there are only 4" was so fuckin irritating.

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>>51831108
They had a Chance to do Something Different in Episode Seven. Why do a Rehash to episode 4 that is so Blatant even normal people can see?

>>51829091
No. Her entire philosophy is based around a misunderstanding of what the force is, how it works, and what balance within it means.

>>51831162
Well it worked.

People fuckin loved the movie BECAUSE it was 4.

Then people spent the whole time pissing the shit out of George Lucas and I never was more vaguely annoyed at a fandom.
I mean, how shallow a cunt you have to be to go 180 on a guy cause he tried a lot of new things that didn't always work.

>>51831218
>millenials loved the movie because it was 4*

Alot of the generations that were in high school when ESB came out hated ep. 7.

>source: my dad and uncles

>>51831218
Got an older friend, OSR/original Star wars and fantasy fan. He hated it because it was a rehash.

Anecdotal, I know.

Im basing my position on all the oldies in my larp who were excited after seeing it.

Well Rogue One was atleast original, and I do like the idea of individual stories that take place in the series.

I could watch 2 hours of the republic commandos for instance.

>>51831283
A trilogy of Obiwan on Tatooine is better.

>>51831296
I honestly thought obiwan spent a decade being a sad person till he evolved into a sad old man.

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>>51828898
She was right somewhat

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>>51831337

>>51831181
I don't know, she mostly just has an issue with the force having a will and influencing people and that's not exactly untrue.

Now we could get into her whole moral relativism thing, but that's only partially related to her beliefs regarding the force.

>>51831371
Morality is Subjective that is a Objective Truth

>>51831447
Not in star wars.

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>>51831351
I thought this was star wars not babylon 5.

>>51831509
>Not in star wars.
You don't get it, do you? The Jedi... the Sith...To the galaxy, they're the same thing; just men and women with too much power, squabbling over religion, while the rest of us burn.

>>51831337
>>51831351
Whats with all this cringey shit?

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>>51831546
Grey Jedi, I presume.

>>51831827
>>51831546
It's what I hate about the post-Vong EU, honestly. Becoming grimdark and 'muh grey and grey morality' just ruined the spirit of what Star Wars was meant to be.

>>51831849
I honestly prefer a more Philosophical Approach to the Whole Grey and Grey Morality.

>>51831887
This

Brings a lot more depth to the universe in my opinion, but even if you don't agree it's variety at least
Avellone's writing aside it doesn't even have to be treated as an objectively true option in-universe, just as "there might be people in the SW universe who have a different view even if it's wrong"

>>51831849
>>51831887
>>51832088

This is a bit awkward given I was planning on writing a "Grey Sith" of sorts as either the primary antagonist in a Clone-Wars era scenario, or a short story, but I don't want it to come across as either cringy "THE REAL HEROES ARE PEOPLE WHO USE LIGHT AND DARK EQUALLY" or "OC donut steel who is super handsome and snarky and shoots lightning cuz its cool"

My basic idea so far is:
>Character started off as a philosophically minded Jedi
>Becomes a commander for essentially a glorified planetary militia at the onset of The Clone Wars
>Witnesses the absolute worst of the fighting, sees untrained militiamen press-ganged into The Republic military
>Him, along with other relatively young Knights and apprentices see constant combat, carnage, and death.
>Their soldiers are slowly replaced by "expendable" clone troopers, death toll rises dramatically on both sides
>Eventually while pursuing Separatist Forces, they come across a planet that was once colonized by the old Sith Empire.
>Discovers Sith texts, studies them
>Tries to reject them, but in the midst of all the combat and death, comes to the conclusion that the struggle and desperate desire to survive HAS made his allies and himself stronger
>Starts searching for more Sith lore
>Encounters some shit from The Brotherhood of Darkness, old holocrons and the like
>Tries to form a new order based off of them
>Along the way, he finds too many philosophical problems with The Order and tried construct something new
>Arrives at a sort of half-way point to the Rule of Two philosophically speaking, creates hierarchy and encourages competition among The Sith.
>Eventually he leads his followers (force sensitive and non-force sensitive alike) to a system in the Outer Rim, conquering it in a series of psuedo-"heroic" deeds in the hopes of forming a civilization based off of his interpretation of Sith philosophy
>Essentially Nihilism, but with heaping dose of encouraging people to become "Ubermensch".

>>51832514
It's fine imo and really whether or not it comes off as cringy or not depends mostly on characterization if you ask me, not so much on the story

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Her daughter is supposed to look like her, so I totally would a younger Kreia.

>>51829755
Reread the post you're replying to. Jedis and SIth use the force constantly, for every aspect of their life.
Strip a surgeon from his skill, and it won't change his ability to shoot a blaster, or drive, or interact with people.
The Force is a powerful crutch, and as a result it stunts the development of its user. It makes people into single-minded, dogmatic one-trick ponies.
You use force empathy, truth sense, enhance attribute, instinctive astrogation, and you forget that those things aren't perfect. Maybe Anakin wouldn't have fallen if he didn't rely on the Force and its visions so much.

We got a similar problem in the army; high-tech systems means that the men are completely lost when they can't rely on it anymore.
30 years ago you did some orienteering and then the guys stil lmanaged to find their way when you removed the map.
Today, when the GPS fails it's a disaster. I've had some guys getting lost between the barracks and the mess hall.

>>51829139
heh

>>51829328
Kreia believed dark side practitioners could be good, and light side practitioners could be evil, though both were ultimately misguided.

>>51831533
I have never for the life of me understood why the regular people of the galaxy don't just kill all the force sensitives on discovery.

These assholes consistently cause nothing but mass misery. Even when the light side wins, ordinary people gain nothing. They just get to wait until the next time one of these dipshits throws a temper tantrum annd throws the whole galaxy into war.

>>51833653
Because of the force.
It makes you better, stronger, more intuitive, so more likely to be in a position of power.
Also it's sometimes hard to detect, isn't 100% tied to genetics so they can appear from nowhere, and the force probably influences regular people too.

>>51833653
The force is a religion. You're basically asking why the Catholics don't kill the clergy, except in this universe, the clergy get superpowers.

>>51833696
Yes it makes you better. The rest of us get nothing. Also, if memory serves me, at its peak the jedi order had a grand total of 10k jedi. So the rest of us get to have constant galaxy spanning misery so that a handful of people can be cool?

>>51833744
>anon figures out how the world works the post

>>51833721
It's not though, regular Joe McRepublic didn't worship the force
The Jedi were barely even a presence in the lives of like 99% of the population
Which is why people like Han Solo didn't even believe in it like 20 fucking years after order 66
Force meant nothing to most of them
I guess there were a few races that were inherently more sensitive to the force in the old EU like the Sith aliens and Rakata who worshiped the dark side in a way

>>51833872
Han Solo is not representative of the larger population.

You know how everyone in the new movies is telling the main characters that the force guides you? That's the religion.

>>51834023
So I googled it and the population of the known universe in SW according to some atlas was 100 quadrillion
That's 100 times 10^15
1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of 1% of that would be 100 000
That's still 10 times the peak amount of jedi according to >>51833744
And most of those jedi aren't even particularly out much and concentrated in Coruscant and other core worlds at best
How many people do you think ever met a jedi in their lives?
Hardly comparable to telling Catholics to kill their clergy, when every catholic has a priest for their neighborhood
Also, the people in the new films aren't representative of the people pre- a force user/jedi master to be/founder of the new jedi order literally blowing up the Death Star once and killing the Emperor later and basically being a figurehead of the rebellion that overthrew the galactic government

>>51834105
You're right, the people prior to the films were much more overt in their worship of force users, what with all the religious statues they built.

>>51831322
This is pretty much the new canon in the Star wars comic. Obi wan pretty much does nothing except protect Luke

>>51834179
You mean one statue on one planet that had a jedi temple?

>>51834230
Korriban, corruscant both come to mind.

>>51834334
Korriban for one hasn't even been seen in the films and other than that it was THE Sith joint where they had statues built of their megalomaniac tyrant dictator overlords on their grave sites, I don't remember any jedi statues in Coruscant but it's also the Jedi hq

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>>51834370
They burn corpses.

>>51833653
>I have never for the life of me understood why the regular people of the galaxy don't just kill all the force sensitives on discovery.

That's called the empire son. They actually did it. That happened.

>These assholes consistently cause nothing but mass misery. Even when the light side wins, ordinary people gain nothing. They just get to wait until the next time one of these dipshits throws a temper tantrum annd throws the whole galaxy into war.

Dunno mate, thousand of years of peace under the Jedi order seems good to me.

>>51834370
There's also the ratakan, and other sith empires, which iirc usually worshipped their rulers.

But now you've gone and put yourself in a corner. If you want to ignore these non movie sources, then you have to be consistent and only discuss the movies.

So let's do that shall we?

In parts 1 through 3, a prominent temple exists on the capital planet which houses warrior monks of a particular faith. These monks wield enormous political and military power in their Democratic society, to the point they believe they can assassinate or arrest the sitting president with little consequence, purely for being part of a faith they deem heretical.

In rogue 1, set moments before the original trilogy, the force faith is widespread but kept secret. It's obvious why: palpatine has perpetuated a brutal cleansing of any beliefs related to the Jedi. But even with this cleansing, a small group of faith based rebels continues their practices and prays to the force for guidance.

Then in parts 7, and probably 8 and 9, curve worship has resurfaced after the empire fell.

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>>51834457
A thousand years of stagnation. Corruption. And religious persecutions if you don't believe in the same religion as the warrior monks. They just exterminated another religion due to its different philosophic outlook.

>>51831241
Then you have my dad who was 16 when ANH came out, and he really enjoyed TFA. And me who would spend days when I was 8 watching all the movies at my grandparents farmhouse. I also loved it, mostly because I will love anything star wars. Fuck it. The Christmas special isn't as bad as people make it seem. That's a lie, it was awful but I still like it

>>51834595
Tldr: Kreia was absolutely right about the force being the cancer that is killing the galactic society?

>>51833594
That's why i liked Kreia. Generally good people can do bad things. Generally bad people can do good things. I get the whole Star Wars ideal is that there is little to no moral grey area. Everything is black and white. Black and white can be boring though.

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>>51834660
A culture's teachings, and most importantly, the nature of its people, achieve definition in conflict. They find themselves… or find themselves lacking. Too long did the Republic remain unchallenged. It is a stagnant beast that labors for breath… and has for centuries. The Jedi Order was the heart that sustained its sickness—now the Jedi are lost, we shall see how long the Republic can survive.

>>51834494
Worshiping your rulers isn't the same as worshiping the force and I already admitted right in the beginning that some force sensitive cultures did worship it like the Rakata and Sith
And I just pointed out the Korriban thing because all it's portrayals are based on EU that's been thrown out, but Korriban has been mentioned in the canon material

As for the prequels and the jedi temple and the jedi's position in the government means literally nothing in this discussion other than they were and ancient and well established organization, not once was it portrayed so that people worship the force, or particularly reverence of the jedi, Watto gives Qui-Gon the finger when he tries mind tricks, Anakin's reaction is like a kid meeting a navy seal or fucking ninja or some shit
Nor does anyone adhere to any tenements or doctrine set by the jedi about the force other than the jedi themselves about the practice of its use

Where in Rogue One is the "force faith" shown to be widespread? I remember Erso being told "may the force be with you" which is literally the SW equivalent of saying good luck, oh and I guess it's also used by the Rebellion as a motto and they should be well aware of the truth about the Jedi "uprising" that Palpatine quelled since Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, that one dude from Rebels and Leia's adoptive dad were all in contact and an integral part of it all and I'd imagine the jedi were seen as martyrs that died trying to save the galaxy

tl;dr the force is a force of nature in the SW universe, like gravity
Nobody worships the gravity
The living force and the whole idea it has a "will" of any kind is literally a philosophy solely among SOME jedi

>>51834616
Yeah she was right. Especially in the new canon

Kreia was a liar and came up with grey morality horseshit to draw you in and get you to do what she wanted.

No matter what you choose she manipulates you to end the Jedi order, remove her rivals and corrupt a lore master while risking your life which she realizes is a threat to you. She wants to keep you down the center because it offers the least resistance to her, psychologically and mechanically.

>>51828898
Fuck no.

Kreia
A) was a Sith
and
B) had a completely false understanding of the Force.

She can go to hell.

>>51835500
>views the force as a cancerous entity that forces the galaxy into a never ending circle of war and bloodshed
>galaxy is stuck in a never ending circle of bloodshed between various force user factions

>>51835522
So the force is responsible for the same cycle in our world and not just the endless cycle of civilizations?

>>51835624
Not the force's fault russia is acting all belligerent

>>51834702
Kreia always struck me as having a blind spot as to how her own culture could have shaped her ideas about the force.

>>51835864
Well she was not ideal. If she would have risen to such level of "enlightenment" she probably would have never attempted her plan. At least not even close to how it originally played out.

If she were even not a sith but just a little more egoistic she too would not have attempted her plan and just allowed the galaxy to deal with its own problems.

I'd sign up with Kreia in a heartbeat.

She believed that the inherent nature of the Force was the Dark Side. The Light Side was simply a mask that it wore.

Consider. Someone donates to charity. They often assist at a children's hospital. They help individuals out every day. But when no one is looking, they torture, rape and eat young children. Such a person is clearly evil.

You simply can't be both good and evil at the same time. No matter what kind of "good" you commit, it does not mitigate the evil that you do. And, at a certain point, the evil you commit will outweigh any of the good you do.

In the same way, if the Force is both Light side and Dark side, then it's true nature must be the Dark side. It's a dangerous entity that controls people's actions. It guides people's fate. It treats individuals like puppets. It is, in essence an all-powerful, all-watching entity, and while it may wear a mask of Light, that is simply to make itself seem tempting to the unwary.

At its core, the Force is evil and it needs to be stopped. Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the galaxy?

>>51837016
>But when no one is looking, they torture, rape and eat young children.
Citation needed. Some people don't need watchers to be men of moral integrity.

she was truly the greatest edgelord of the sith

>>51830085
I was actually playing through KotOR 2 while watching Mobile Psycho 100 and drew many parallels. Basically, don't rely on a single talent, even if that talent makes you all powerful. If you were to ever lose it, you would be much lesser. Also the belief that psychics and force users are no better than normal people, they simply have different talents that they rely on too much.

>>51837016
So.. if force is part of everything living, that would mean you would have to obliterate entire galaxy. Guess that works, in twisted way.

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>>51834595
>Th-they just attacked the Sith because they were different! N-Nihilus dindu muffin! He was a good boy!

>>51838857
Nihilus is really good example of how bad the force is, he is essentially a force-Crack addict, no good entity gets people to drain entire planets to satisfy a craving

Why do we never have this kind of conversation about arcane style magic? There are alot of the same arguments, its alot easier to cast fireballs than it is to heal with arcane magic. doesnt that make all magic evil and mean it should be wiped out

>>51838857
>>51839978
That is also the key why Keira picked exile. Nihilus GAVE himself to the force and it only took it from him. On Malachor V, exile, instead of grasping the Force in order to survive, she THROW it away knowing only that can save her. Every other sith and jedi, or at least most of them would cling onto it. Exile is strong because she doesn't let the Force use her, she uses the Force - in eyes of Kreia at least.

>>51840445
So does the exile still have the midichlorians in her or no?

>>51834494
>they can assassinate or arrest the sitting president with little consequence, purely for being part of a faith they deem heretical.

Oh yes, because that was the only fucking reason they would try to arrest Palpatine.

>>51840710
I dont think midichlorians are considered in this argument as most people in this thread seem to be describing the force as a godlike entity and not a natural phenomenon caused by bacteria.

>>51840798
I'm not talking about this argument, I'm asking your opinion on a specific question. Also. midis channel the Force into beings, not cause it.

>>51840306
There's no traditionally spiritual aspect to arcane magic. The force is the basis for not only the basis of a bunch of wicked sick powers, but a religion and is said to flow through and everyone a guide actions.

I think there is some interesting discussion to be had, in character between a wizard and a cleric, about why it's apparently difficult to use arcane to heal people, though.

>>51831887
Grey and Gray Morality is okay, but the term Grey Jedi is undeniably stupid and has no meaning

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kreiaposters pls go and stay go

>>51840912
Kreia hates mindless acts of cruelty just as much as she hates mindless acts of charity.

>>51840942
There is no such thing as a mindless act of charity all acts of charity stem from your own moral convictions while acts of cruelty can stem from sadism and a desire for personal entertainment

>>51840888
You had green jedi, why not gray ones ?

>>51840942
Kreia is beginning to sound very overhyped.

I really wish there were more non-jedi, non-sith forceusers in Star Wars. So far we only know of witches and oracles from TCW, and the Sequels are repeating the Light vs Dark fight for the third time in canon and for the billionth time in the entire run of the franchise

>>51841026
It's not about hype, it's about the things she said causing fans to think about and discuss it years after the game came out.

Even if Kreia is 100% wrong (and I strongly suspect she might be), the shit she said caused fans to question the view of the Force they got from Yoda all those decades ago.

>>51841067
Well, I understand that. The OT is a fantasy story in space, so it didn't have all that much depth to it, so of course KOTOR must've been revolutionary. A lot of Kreias and anons criticisms correspond to problems shown and partially resolved in TCW, of the Jedi Order being stagnant and blinded to the true damage they were doing to the galaxy.

>>51841067
What is so fun about Kreia is that the main source of exposition in the entire game is a lying, manipulative bitch. And she never claims otherwise.

Contrary to most mentor figures in star wars (Obi-Wan "from a certain point of view" Kenobi, Jolee "I'm senile when I want to" Bindo, amongst others) she has an agenda that goes beyond uplifting the protagonist and seeing what happens next or letting the Force do the rest. It's refreshing in a way.
And a villain mentor is a great tool for questioning authority in a story.

>>51838857
Nihilus is a good example of the force being uncaring. No entity would give a person the power to drain the force and by extension life from another person. Had the exile died then the galaxy would have being no more

>>51841950
Why do you think the force created the exile?

>>51842115
The exile created the exile. Other force users noted the force was terrified of the exile.

>>51829568
>If I've got shit to do you know that I'll be using every tool to my advantage
Erm, that's the point, anon: Jedi, Sith, they use EVERY tool they have for their own advantage - and look where it got them...dead.
The only way to ensure long-term survival is by not being so extreme, by NOT using every possible advantage to waac. Winning AT ALL COSTS is the problem: some (many) costs are too high, so you end up with the pyrhhic victory (i.e. you win ash and dust).
The true path to genuine long-term survival is non-extreme; long-term survival requires moderation, acceptance of difference.
Kreia knew full well that Jedi and Sith relied on the Force for just one thing: POWER. Jedi and Sith were just like every other muggle in the galaxy - reliant upon power to get their way, and to stop others from having their way.

>>51842143
That was projection. It's ludicrous to think that the force can be terrified or emotionally affected by anything, or that any destiny, including the exile's can be independent of the force.

>>51841026
She's a school teacher. She hates mindless anything. Just act like you actually think about what she says and she's happy.

>>51841008
> no such thing as a mindless act of charity
Oh, anon! That's sweet of you, but you need to open yer eyes.

>>51840710
Yes. The exile just voluntarily chose to stop using his force powers. To put down the magic wand, turn away from it entirely.

Yes, the alternative was death. No other jedi (or sith) managed it though.

>>51842292
How do you turn away from bacteria in your bloodstream who are feeding energy into you? I understand choosing not to use the powers when you could, but that's not even close to cutting yourself off from them.

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>>51837016
>You simply can't be both good and evil at the same time
I have a feeling you don't know about perspective anon

>>51833576
>Her daughter is supposed to look like her, so I totally would a younger Kreia.
Is that some fan theory or did I just totally miss it in the game?

>>51842486
Both.

>>51842478
>didn't use a picture of Alec Guinness

Opportunity missed.

>>51841067
I definitely think that Kreia's conclusions are wrong and too colored by her own biases. Be that as it may, I think there's merit in the idea that relying to much on the force and letting it define who you are is dangerous and crippling.

Look at what was created because the Jedi convinced some backwater kid on Tatooine he was really special because he was strong in the force.

Honestly, I never understood the point of both jedi and sith. I mean, why would you go train with them ?
What if some force sensitive person spend his whole life levitating rocks in some remote place, pondering questions and offering answers to the population nearby ? Because for me, that's what jedi should strive for. Why the hell would you want to learn how to fight if all you are looking for is philosophy, tranquility and meditation ?

>>51842471
By being afraid.

>>51842630
Because that would actually do good.

>>51842233
>Qui-Gon was right and you have to give into the Cosmic Force to find peace, let go of total control of the material world
Excellent

>>51828898
Kreia did nothing wrong except fail.

The Yuuzhan Vong came along and they proved her right - you can exist, not just at the individual scale, but galactic, without the Force. Stripped of the Force, even. And for a time, they were the victors.

But then, y'know, narrative causality and all that. And then Disney.

>>51842630
What happens when some uniformed goons waltz into that local population and start demanding shit?

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>>51843118
Then you set yourself on fire.

>>51843172
Is he okay?

>>51831181
>Jedi\Sith Master + Historian misunderstands what the force is
>anon misunderstands what the force is

Really having a tough time calling this one, guys; what do you think?

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>>51843203
Kreia is right.

>>51842486
>>51842497
She talks "hypothetically" about herself in the 3rd person (Arren Kae, established to be Revan's final teacher--which is precisely what Kreia claims to be) in which she reveals having fugged an Echani general as part of her fall. Handmaiden is an Echani who honours the face of her mother, which is like Kreia's, who also warns you against reproducing with her if you're a male. Which some people see as her absentee-mothering form the same starship.

There's an inconsistency or three about when Kae would've died\been exile, though, which could be writing. Could be characters. Could be Kreia lying, as she's wont to do.

Personally I think Chrisy Avellone gave a "good catch but can't comment" because there's a bit more to it inside cut content not found in the restored stuff (cause the restored is only from what could be salvaged, not what never got made but tied together the story).

>KotOR 2.5 when?

>>51843357
One of the jedi masters do note they thought she had died during the war.

>>51843197
If he was he would've just tried again. His death's publicization factored into the Kennedy decision to have then-South Vietnamese president assassinated.

Then in
>completely unrelated
events Kennedy gets shot.

>>51837016
>Consider. Someone tortures, rapes and eats people. But when no one is looking, they donate to charity. They often assist at a children's hospital. They help individuals out every day.. Such a person is clearly 'good'.

It's not the best analogy. in fact it is pretty awful as one. But, every coin has two sides. Is it possible that the force is clearly good, and that it puts on an "evil" mask to hide its intentions? No villain is evil in their own mind. They always have a well justified, justified by them at least, to do what they do. Palps wasn't evil just to be evil. He was, in the EU, trying to prep the galaxy for the Vong. Sure billions of lives were sacrificed for that goal, but it was for the betterment of the galaxy right? He did "bad" things for "good" reasons. Star Wars lore and writing has a stick up it's but a pure blue/red dichotomy. But in reality that dichotomy is split with shades of purple.

>>51843611
Palpatine was prepping for the Vong only because he didn't want what was "his" to be taken from him, not out of some altruistic sense.

>>51843640
Which is still better than the alternative

>>51843640
That doesn't matter. What matters is that everything he did was to keep the galaxy out of Vong hands. The fact is that the rebellion made things much, much worse by fighting the Empire.

>>51843118
you kill yourself. No other way
If you can do it just by stopping your own vitals, that's even better

>>51842630
Thats like asking why some monks train in martial arts. You need to control the body in order control the mind. The jedi are basically monks. In Rouge one, blind dude was a monk, and force sensitive. They seem to go hand in hand.

>>51843720
while that is true, and while fighting arts may be a part of this, nothing is telling you to go outside of your monastery or whatever, and nothing should compel you to intervene

>>51843658
Debatable. The Empire /might/ have done better against the Vong than the Republic, or it might not have. Most of the Republic soldiers were veterans of intense fighting, while that's not necessarily true of the Imperial soldiers - and Palpatine's battle meditation might not have even worked against the Vong.

>>51843693
It kind of does matter.

>>51843611 said that
>Palps wasn't evil just to be evil

Which is pretty clearly wrong - he's evil, absolutely evil for the sake of evil, and if you've ever read any of the EU, that's instantly recognizably true. He has no qualms in understanding that he's NOT a good guy. He's absolutely evil in every sense. This is a dude who delights in striking people down with hate rays.

To say that he isn't evil is to completely misunderstand his character.

>>51830030
Even if it's not, you can easily interpolate a drug metaphor into Kreia's philosophy and it still works.

She doesn't hate that it doesn't care.

She hates that it's addictive.

>>51843640
He didnt want what hew had spent years creating taken from him. Sure he probably didnt give a rats ass about Joe Blow down on Dantooine, but do you think that Leis cared about him either? Palp was trying to ensure the survival of the empire. The empire isnt a force for evil just like the Alliance was a force for good. You think all those politicians were "fighting the good fight" for the betterment of Joe Blow on Dantooine? Fat chance. They were trying to better their own standing in the galaxy.

>>51843761
> Live in monastery training to control body and mind
> Nearby villages sometimes bring food as this monastery is not self sufficient
> Some big "bad" comes and sets fire to the village
> You see smoke from the monastery
> "I'll just sit here here with my thumb up my ass I guess"
> Die from lack of food

There is a saying I heard when I was like 8 that has stuck with me.

"With great power comes great responsibility"

Some times you have to defend what you believe is right. If you don't, having that power is wasted on you.

>>51843825
Difference is that while Leia and the Republic leaders might practice some sort of benign neglect or blind indifference at worst, Palpatine would be totally willing to throw all the lives away simply to maintain the stranglehold he had. This is a man who corrupted entire planets through the power of the dark side in the search for more power, this is a man who literally leached life from entire planets worth of people just to power his mad experiments in the dark side.

He's not a good man. He's petty and jealous and greedy and if it's not under his control, fuck you he's going to take it under his control whether you like it or not.

He didn't prep the galaxy for the Vong (which is a post-hoc explanation anyway, as we're not given any information in any works set during his reign about him prepping for something else coming), he's prepping because these things are coming that might take his toys away and fuck that, he'd rather burn them to the ground than let others take them from him.

>>51843910
You think the alliance leaders wouldn't do the same? Maybe I'm just cynical, but those in power generally want to remain in power. Sure the Vong explanation came after the fact, but within the source material, the original material, there was only so much time to develop characters and make them round. Which is why i could never be an author/creative director. All my characters would turn into flat grey characters.

>>51843986
The characters as we saw them grow would absolutely not treat Joe Dewback on Dantooine the same way that Palpatine would, no.

That's the difference. They weren't willing to sacrifice anyone's lives but their own to fight the Vong, while Palpatine was going to sacrifice everyone but himself to stop them. He's exactly that kind of petty person that would rather rule over a bunch of cinders than let someone play in his sandbox.

The heroes of the New Republic, on the other hand, should (and, if they're true to the character depictions in the OT, would) never sacrifice innocent lives just so they could live another day.

>>51844031
True. I love fantasy, but i hate how there is such a dichotomy between "Good" and "Evil" with no middle ground. To me that takes me out of the fantasy because it is really unfounded in the real world (I know, I know Fantasy). Things are rarely black or white

>>51844128
The dark side has literally always, from the very first description, been the power of tyrants and evil men. It's not evil in and of itself, but it's bestial and predatory at the very least, and corruptive to those who use it. It messes with their heads in all sorts of ways, it's addictive as any hard drug.

There's plenty of room for shades of gray within Star Wars, but the Force itself is black and white by design and for good reason.

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>>51844175
That is all clearly jedi propaganda. Darth Tyranus was clearly sane and seemed like a completely normal fellow.

>>51844347
Who, in Legends (you know, same continuity as all this BS about Palpatine prepping the galaxy for the Vong) was terribly racist to the point where even Palpatine was like, "whoah, tone it down bro."

He's not quite as over-the-top evil in canon, but he's definitely not a nice man by any means, as we see throughout the Clone Wars CGI series.

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>>51844369
I wasnt one of the ones defending Sheev. I believe he's easily the most evil character in the entire franchise. The only evil thing he hasn't been shown to do is rape. I am just saying that the darkside use doesn't automatically or always turn its users into ugly monsters.

>>51844455
Revan is one and there is another Dark lord of the Sith Who used the Darkside but was rather chill.

>>51829515
It's such a quiet thing, to fall

>>51844455
Some people might claim Dooku doesn't use the dark side that much - despite, you know, the very first film he appeared in he used the same lightning power that defined Palpatine as being the ultimate evil wizard in the setting for ~20 years.

Dooku might not be a cackling madman like Palpatine, but he's still very much an evil person.

>>51844490
Debatable. BioWare pre-TOR Revan was definitely a bad guy, even if he didn't necessarily target civilians. It's just that his apprentice was more of a dick than he was. TOR Revan is a royal prick who thought he could use both sides equally and be okay, and then was whammied by the Sith Emperor.

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>>51844541
One even if Dooku used lightning he was shown to be cordial and nowhere near a crazy cackling madman like Sidious and two The Old Republic and Sith Emperor is horrible shit and Kotor being noncanon is worth it as long as that ToR shit can never be. Ruined everything good about Kotor 1 and 2.

>>51843197
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c

You tell me.

>>51843611
>>51843640
>>51843658
>>51843693
>>51843785
Intentions are irrelevant, only consequences.

>"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

>>51842285
Can you give an example of a mindless act of charity? charity with the motive of seeming good doesn't count since that is not mindless. any act of charity can only done only with intent as it is against our animal nature to be charitable

All charity is simply virtue signalling.

>>51844541
>TOR
don't bring that shit game that ruin Kotor 1 and Kotor 2. The fact BioWare Shafted Kotor 2 severely is just pathetic.

>>51841026
Sorry friend, the Jedi wiped out (or assimilated and erased) all the other force traditions, except the Sith, although they tried really hard.

>>51845770
New Canon has force witches on Dathomir who also existed in the EU anyways, and a race that distrusted the Jedi and had force users called the Dagoyan Masters. There's also some jackass on Atollon called the Bendu who can use the force and doesn't adhere to the Ligh/Dark dichotomy. There's also the weird force family from Mortis

There were also a number of other non-jedi traditions in the EU, like the wizards of Tund, the Baran Do sages and the Jenassarai.

Snoke has been hinted in new canon to be a power independent of the Sith, and was calling to Sheev from the Unknown Regions, so there's still hope that Knights of the Ren aren't the only new group of force sensitives running around. I just want to see more of them, before, after and during the OT, because there are clearly more out there

>>51845042
What if you give charity to someone you personally know and like?

>>51846273
>Bendu who can use the force and doesn't adhere to the Ligh/Dark dichotomy
Non-canon. Jedi are always right. Sith are Evil. Nothing else need to discuss

>>51846310
>>51846310
Canon is changing, there is no need to shitpost. The EU already disagreed with your statement before the purge anyways

Stupid hiroshimoot and his stupid website won't let me post bendu

>>51845042
You must be a jaded asshole if you genuinely believe this. virtue signalling is saying things to try and look like a good person, being genuinely charitable means you are a good person. Advocating charity is virtue signalling doing it is not

>>51846273
If you know and like them then you are personally invested in their continued existence so helping them could be seen as selfish also the implication is that you want them to like you for helping them so it could be seen as a kind "virtue signalling"

>>51844997
A while ago Something Awful found a kickstarter for a dude that wanted to open a hot dog restaurant in his small town. Doobie's Dog House it was called. For some reason, possibly because of long speeches by enthusiastic posters that helping to fund this place could legitimately revitalize the town (I shit you not, one guy claimed that building this hot dog shack would save this town), goons went into a frenzy and funneled money to a dude that had no idea how to run a business or manage his finances. The doghouse opened, was shit, then folded leaving the man in a worse position than before the whole saga began just so Goons could feel good about themselves and have a something awful themed hotdog on the menu.

>>51846545
>"Look at me! I can afford to spend money on charity! Aren't I such a great and wonderful and wealthy person?"
All charity is virtue signalling.

>>51842630
That's a little like what the jedi were portrayed like in the Tales of the Jedi iirc, which I still think was the better way to portray them than what the prequels did
The jedi were a very loose organization, barely an organization of sage monks and philosophers spread throughout the galaxy who served as arbiters and almost in a mercenary way where you could request their assistance in various matters, but it's not like they'd just do anything of course they had their whole stance on harmony and peace and good etc, you could be married, a parent or even an adult when YOU DECIDED that you wanted to become one, all it required was talent with the force and finding a master willing to teach you
They were organized much more on the level of master and pupils anyway, a master and his students were like a family, they'd form a unit
Other than that you'd have some much more philosophically minded masters just hanging around together in like mountaintop cloisters just talking and thinking etc

>>51847253
Charity in a sufficient amount that the other person no longer needs to seek one of their essential needs for survival\permanently no longer needs to seek out that source of survival has an objective impact on that person's life.

If they'd be dead without it, it has objectively saved their life.

It's still virtue signaling, but I'd consider this a triumph of charitable movements in society in general--most people don't open their pocket books without getting something out of it, and if it's warm-fuzzies\feeling like they kept up with the Joneses, at least Umbubu got that liver transplant he needed to fetch my elephant gun for the foreseeable future.

>>51847480
I think in the Backstory of Kotor 1 and 2. The Jedi didn't want a Centralized organization due to fear the elders or council members being wrong. One Old Sith Wars later and they were proven right With the Jedi all but extinct with the exception of the jedi Exile

>>51846777
So what was the goon dog like then? Lukewarm dog shit on slice of white bread?

>>51843203
More like Avalon, as much as I like some of his other games, misunderstands the force, or just outright dislikes the concept of objective good and evil regardless of the setting.

>>51848526
I thought He hated how the Force was being used in the EU as something you don't have to explain shit.

>>51848526
He should write a LotR fanfic.
>Stupid Hobbits, believing White Council's propaganda. Of course you can use the Ring for good, and if you disagree you're just slaves who can't think for themselves ;^)

>>51848589
No he hated the black and white morality, that is all, he used Kreia as his mouthpiece, which just makes her as a character less of a valid criticism, and more something an asshole who missed the point of Star Wars and the Jedi used to whine about Star Wars and the Jedi.

>>51848526
>>51848526
I never understood why some people get their knickers in a twist about this
It's EU or was
It was never canon or even supposed to be canon
If there was one place to explore ideas outside the established by the films that was it
Its literal point was to expand on the SW universe with new perspectives and story lines and concepts and shit without having to conform 100% with Lucas's vision and then if it's dumb dogshit you can just wave it off as "it's EU, who cares, just ignore it if you don't like it"
And if it does have something going on for it, well great it might even serve to inspire the canon stuff

>>51848758
Wrong!

>>51848758
Everything in the EU that didn't directly contradict anything in the movies was considered canon.

>>51848859
There were different levels of canon.

Tbh both old and new canon are filled with garbage.

>>51848963
Any multi-author franchise is filled with garbage, anon.

>>51837190
>Citation needed.
He wasn't making a claim, so why are you asking for a citation?

>>51849161
Proofs

>>51849109
Any franchise that is longer than 5-6 books is filled with garbage, anon, even if it has the same author.

>>51849777
And Lucas only needed 2 movies before he started shitting things up.

>>51849857
There is an easy way to roughly rate an author I've developed over the years.

Take a multi-book franchise he wrote on the same setting or roughly the same topic. Select rougly first 5 books out of this franchise. Start reading through them in order. The number of the book the quality of writing starts dropping on is the amount of stars you rate the author out of 5. So if the writing quality starts dropping on the second book, the author gets 1.5/5 or 2/5 rating.

Lucas rates 2/5 on that scale, and so does Rowling. G.R.R. rates 1.5/5 except when we're talking Tuf Voyaging. Asimov and Pratchett rate 4/5. Lem and Bradbury rate 5/5, and so on.

It doesn't really work with short stories though, I guess.

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>>51846310
No you fucking OT purist idiot.

>>51849729
There was nothing to prove or disprove in the part quoted, though.

>>51850011
Lucas was only really involved in the making of Episode IV of the OT, and some would argue that he wasn't even the reason that it turned out good.

>>51831296
>A trilogy of Obiwan on Tatooine is better.
Three full movies about a guy watching sand and getting older.
It may be some deep philosophical thing about life, change, passing and accepting ones past, but it will be bad SW film.

>>51850157
>and some would argue that he wasn't even the reason that it turned out good.

A pretty easy argument, considering how much work his wife did in turning the first cut around into something watchable.

>>51835624
Maybe not, but the force is definitely responsible for the people capable of committing genocide by waving their hands with the force.

>>51850011
>have to read an entire 5 books to know if the book series is something I want to read

That's a shitty rating system, with little practicality. I've got a simpler one: Read the first paragraph of the book. Start at 5 stars. Every made up word or Capitalized noun that isn't a character name subtracts one star.

This only works for fantasy.

>>51850418
>Every made up word
All words are made up.

>>51850418
All words are made up, anon

>>51850418
xkcd isn't particularly known to be a fountain of wisdom, but in this case I agree.

Besides, it's meant to be rating an author you're familiar with, not a quick check for what you want to read. You can't really say the quality of writing is dropping unless you have it something to compare it with.

>>51850418
> Every made up word or Capitalized noun that isn't a character name subtracts one star.

Also, Stanislaw Lem is a direct counter-example to your system.

>>51850437
>>51850450
and yet you pedantic morons knew exactly what I meant. The wonders of language!

>>51850486
No, we don't know what you mean when you say nonsense like that.

>>51850472
There are certainly counter examples, but it's a great general rule and has saved me many stupid plots, or would have saved me had I realized it.

For instance, I probably wouldn't have read the Eragon books.

>>51850486
>>51850486
>>51850486
It's retarded and arbitrary af

Say there's a plane or substance of magic in your setting and you call it 'aether', why? It's not English word, it's a loanword from Greek that was for an elemental concept that some random dude centuries later decided to apply to their maybe vaguely comparable or related esoteric concept that some other dude even later decided to loan for their fantasy fiction concept, it's a word that originally had nothing to do with what it's widely applied to in fantasy, but you do it because somebody decided to use that word for it
How's that different from me calling "magical essence" or whatever in my original donut steel setting something completely made up? Other than you being autistic and thinking there's some inherent meaning in words that nobody should ever mess with

>>51843611
>To be good is to be good all of the time; to be evil some of the time is to be evil.
-- Leonard Peikoff, who's a good man some of the time

>>51850533
Hey, I enjoyed those books, and in my view, the many different ways you could take the story are a mark of good writing, for example, you could take the books as all being from the point of view of the villains, or that just Eragon is a villain and everyone else on his side is simply using him to kill Galbatorix, but that's just my opinion.

Captcha: frei europe
Is captcha telling my to fry europe?

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>>51850850
>Captcha: frei europe
>Is captcha telling my to fry europe?
Fry or Free. One of the two.

>>51850949
Then I'll go with free, and kill the next Hitler.

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>>51850998
But anon, you are the Hitler. That's why you've been given this choice.

>>51851029
Cool then I guess the worlds going to be a liberal paradise in 30 years, after I take out the trumpified america, I'm coming for you Europe.

Capthcha: centro riederich

>>51850393
There is like 1 force user in the EU able to commit massive destruction with the force.

The rest are just people who used it to get themselves into positions of power.

>>51851100
>the worlds going to be a liberal paradise
>after I take out the trumpified america
See, you're already taking to the job with gusto, taking out the leader of a nation that was elected legitimately based on the rules that country has for transferring power. You'll have stormtroopers marching in lockstep, taking away desenters in no time!

>>51851154
I know, it will be GLORIOUS! I WILL HAVE ULTIMATE POWER!

>>51851203
It's always nice when someone finds a goal and works towards it. I hope you have all the success you deserve anon.

>>51851266
Haha, nah, I'm gonna rule from the shadows, Palpatine was an idiot, and so was Hitler, they had power but made themselves targets for assassination, from the shadows you can keep shit going even if your pawn gets killed, I'm already halfway there, why the fuck do you think trump won?

>>51851355
>why the fuck do you think trump won?
If Trump is the pawn of your Shadow Government, why would you want to take him out?

>>51851396
Did I say I did? I don't believe I ever did, just that if he is I'll keep going.

>>51850368
Wouldnt be that hard to add some action. Imagine he's in mos eisley and there's raiders or something and at first he fights them with a stick or his hands but things slowly escalate and he has a choice, draw his lightsaber and bring the empire crashing down or stop fighting for what is right to live another day. It would be a choice between serving the jedi code or preserving the jedi code.

>>51851568
Kotor 2 did that.

>>51828898
Her dialogues were amazing. The writing of KOTOR2 is seriously underrated.

>>51851749
Amazing in the sense that she is immediately seen as a psychopath that has no qualms about lying to you to achieve her ends.

>>51835522
The Force is the Universe and the Universe is the Force. Kreia saying that the Force causes a never ending cycle of war and bloodshed is like a Fish saying the Ocean causes an ecosystem.

But I'm not going to bother arguing with you. Kreia is stupid and I would kill her in a heartbeat.

>>51851766
given the average murderhobo personality of the rpg player coupled with a chosen one complex, I would also lie to the exile instead of explaining everything and risking confrontation.

>>51851834
Obviously not. Star Wars canonically takes place in our universe. The Force is not present in our galaxy. The Force is a parasite, either temporally local or spacially local to the star wars time period/galaxy.

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>>51853677
>Star Wars canonically takes place in our universe

>>51853744
>a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away

>>51853762
You realize that most King Arthur stories began with, "A long time ago in England," right?

>>51853835
And King Arther stories canonically take place in our universe. Did you switch sides?

>>51853849
Fairies, ghosts, and magic swords don't exist in our universe, and therefore couldn't have existed in those stories because they are set in our universe.

>>51853906
No, the fairies, ghosts, and magic swords are simply not around anymore.

>>51853959
Or they are still around, and you just cannot see them.

>>51854035
I suppose that's possible. Doesn't really apply to the star wars discussion though, since the force is directly observable due to medichlorians. Thanks Lucas!

>>51854078
Ah, now you start wriggling. A magic sword is just as observable as a microscopic organism. Perhaps what Qui Gon would call a midichlorian is already present within our cells. Perhaps connection to the Force is a function of the mitochondria (which is what midichlorians were actually based off of), or perhaps they reside within all the "waste" dna inside the nucleus. Watch out, the Force could be manipulating you at this very moment.

>>51854199
>Ah, now you start wriggling. A magic sword is just as observable as a microscopic organism.
Actually, you said we could not see them. Which would make these hypothetical magic swords not really observable. Kindly try to remember the context to statements you are responding to, and your own damn posts.

>Perhaps what Qui Gon would call a midichlorian is already present within our cells. Perhaps connection to the Force is a function of the mitochondria (which is what midichlorians were actually based off of), or perhaps they reside within all the "waste" dna inside the nucleus. Watch out, the Force could be manipulating you at this very moment.

The way Qui Gon described medichlorians is not applicable to anything known in medicine or science to my knowledge. IIRC he described them with a density/ppm type language, which certainly doesn't apply to "waste dna".

>>51854297
>Actually, you said we could not see them. Which would make these hypothetical magic swords not really observable.
You're right. I should have said that they're still around, and we just do not see them.

>IIRC he described them with a density/ppm type language, which certainly doesn't apply to "waste dna".
You're probably getting that from the "over 20,000" line and Qui Gon saying that they were in Anakin's cells. This could mean many things. Perhaps the number meant that there were 20k midichlorians in the blood sample itself, or perhaps it meant that each of Anakin's cells had over 20k midis in them. It might possibly even have meant that something in the blood sample allowed Obi Wan's scan to divine that Anakin had over 20k individual midichlorians spread throughout different cells in his body. Star Wars' medical scanners are obviously more sophisticated than ours. Also, it may be the case that a midichlorian is a sequence of the waste dna that somehow displays the properties of life. The possibilities are endless.

>>51854575
>"Midi-chlorians are a microscopic life form that resides within all living cells."

No, the possibilities really aren't endless. None of what you're describing is what Qui Gon described.

>>51853677
>The Force is not present in our galaxy.

Get a load of this dumbass.

>>51854695
Ah, I forgot about that. Then yes, it seems as if he was talking about 20k per cell.

>This entire thread

Look, the best way to enjoy Star Wars is to pick and choose the things you like and include them in your games. You can completely disregard midichlorians(like most intelligent people).

Just, stop with the "muh canon" arguments. It doesn't matter.

>>51851834
>Kreia saying that the Force causes a never ending cycle of war and bloodshed is like a Fish saying the Ocean causes an ecosystem
Except the Force clearly has some sort of sentience because from time to time it protects and guides some random fuck so he can find the relics of the Jedi/Sith and try to destroy the opposing group, only for another dick to show up later and do the same.
Or at least that's how shit was in the EU, Almost every fucking time the Sith or the Jedi came back was because the Force guided some fuck like Luke or Darth Bane so they could rebuild the Order and destroy the other one.

>>51854785
And I like the idea of the force as a galactic spanning parasite as suggested by Kreia, and the medichlorian thing.

>>51854912
Yeah. Seems interesting

>>51851834
But the jedi anf sith have been exterminating one another since their conception

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This thread has gotten too far from the original topic.

Why do Jedi and Sith need to learn how to fight anyways? If they care so much about the Force, why not use the Force to settle fights completely?

Is it just for people who can't tap into the Force so well? But if it is, then why would someone like Anakin/Darth Vader use a Lightsaber?

>>51859054
Because the Jedi are pseudo Pacifist. and the Sith are Edgy teenagers.

>>51859054
To perfect the mind one must perfect the body.
>>51859118
The Jedi are not and never were pacifists, they do however love peace, and obviously prefer that state of affairs.

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>>51859135
>Jedi are the Keepers of the Peace
>Wage a war because the other group believes in a Different Religion and because they have a Different Philosophical outlook at life.
>They love peace.
God I hate you Jedi Apologist

>>51860526
The Sith have always started the wars. Jedi have allies not because they force them to join but because they choose to, whereas the Sith force people to join them, or blackmail them with violence to make them fight on their side. You seem to inflate the fact that the Jedi exist with them somehow bringing war, other bring the war the Jedi simply defend themselves and others from the Warbringers.

>>51860710
So are we going to ignore the fact they fired the first shot in the Great Schism Eradicating a Entire Group simply because they refuse to follow a Centralized hierarchy

>>51860828
They deserved it. They disobeyed a order from the Venerable Jedi Council.

>>51860828
>Great Schism
Which one fuckstick?
>>51861137
See above.

>>51861285
The First Great Schism

>>51861781
Well, the Order just split at first, it later broke out into violence but nobody knows why or how it broke out, just that it did, and you really can't blame the Jedi for banning study of the Dark Side, when even then it was well known how destructive Dark Siders were and how their use of the Dark Side always led to conflict and violence.

>>51860526
Sith be tyrants and mass murderers yo, and the Jedi understand the true horrors of their plans. Being okay with the Sith is being okay with a pair of mass murdering wizards and their lackeys running around.

Your rabbit anime girl is also a stupid gearfag and needs to go back to its /k/ general

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>>51828898
old ladies are the best. Benjamin Franklin said they make the best sex friends and that's why he's on the 100 dollar bill.

really hoped this thread had more hag posting.

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>>51861884
>vocal opponent to the Order's increasingly exclusionary ways and eager to preserve the techniques and teachings of representatives from other Force traditions also studying on Ossus.
>Somehow trying to preserve the Teachings and techniques from other Force groups is evil.

>>51862059
Preserving the Way of the Dark in particular was what was objectionable to the council and it wasn't preserving them that they had an issue with, it was that he wanted to teach them to Padawans. He wanted to teach Padawans the Dark Side. How do you not get this this was bad? also they left Ossus and went to Lettow.

>>51854807
>it protects and guides some random fuck
It's only shown to guide and protect Jedis in the movies. My interpretation from way back when was that the Jedis followed and trusted the Force and that the dark side was about controlling and enslaving it to ones will.

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>>51862127

>The Failed Hero initially petitioned the leaders of the Order to depart Ossus in order to create a new academy. There, he hoped to teach and study alternative traditions of the Force, such as Dai Bendu, the Palawa, and the Protectorate of the Hidden, to name just a few.

>He Also reluctantly accepted to Preserve the Teachings of the Way of the Dark

>The leaders of the Order refused The Failed Hero's request, but he exited in defiance despite their decision

>The The Failed Hero and His Followers initially wished to be left alone by the Jedi, but the peace would not last. The Jedi Order branded the Him and his Followers as Heretics And Declared War.

>Wanting to Preserve the Teachings in Solitude and in peace is Evil

>>51862268
Already at this point, the Order had grown doctrinaire in its practices and, to some, too rigid to allow growth. A young Jedi named Arden Lyn was one such believer, and found a leader in fellow disgruntled Order member Xendor. Xendor, a Kashi Mer, had grown vocal in his criticism of what he perceived as the Order's increasingly exclusionary ways.[1]
Xendor initially petitioned the leaders of the Order to depart Ossus in order to create a new academy. There, he hoped to teach and study alternative traditions of the Force, such as Dai Bendu, the Palawa, the Way of the Dark and the Protectorate of the Hidden, to name just a few. The leaders of the Order refused Xendor's request, but he exited in defiance despite their decision.

Editing shit for your argument does not help your case
Just in case that copy isn't enough for you here's the link
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/First_Great_Schism

>>51862306
the Jedi Order had grown weary of the dissidents' continued existence and decided to put an end to the Great Schism which had torn at the Order's fabric for too long. Forming a massive army, the High Council forced the Legionnaires into open conflict.

Not helping your case

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>>51828898

>>51862886
Did you not read the whole thing? the dissidents are the ones who were known to have struck Ossus violently before that happened.

>>51850042
The fuck is thay

>>51861884
Was it the first or second split that caused the rise of the sith?

>>51835624

Actually it's the most redpilled view of the force imaginable.

That said, it's also a view that blaims the hammer for how it's used. Assuming the force is neutral itself. It's basicly blaiming a all emcompasing vague force for the world ills, except she could /see/ that force and interact with it.

>>51865914
Well things do get suspicious

>>51862028
sauce on your pic please? google is giving me nothing

>>51869435
https://exhentai.org/g/653175/cf1cce770d/ Enjoy your gilf kitsune porn.

>>51869737
thanks pal

>>51853677
>Star Wars canonically takes place in our universe. The Force is not present in our galaxy
Source for both of these claims, please.

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>>51870724
Not him, but really anon?
>Star Wars canonically takes place in our universe
I dunno.

>The Force is not present in our galaxy
When was the last time you saw a force-sensitive on Earth?

>>51865821
The third actually

>>51830157
I never understood why using the Dark side made you into an unstable dickhead and made you looked all fucked up. Unless it's the simplest answer: Arbitrary Lucasism.

>>51872372
Because the dark side is black magic. It's as simple as that. It's corruptive because what's derivative from is corruptive.

>>51872372
>made you into an unstable dickhead
Because the Dark Side runs on strong emotions. This means Sith usually have no emotional restraints and all the impulse control of a toddler.

>>51828898
I hate everything Star Wars related that goes beyond the first two movies.

So no.

>>51872372
Lack of impulse control

>>51870998
>When was the last time you saw a force-sensitive on Earth?
When has Earth ever been depicted in Star Wars?

>>51872372
For the same reason why using the Light Side makes you into an insufferably cryptic moralfag.

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>>51874406
>insufferably cryptic moralfag
Atton description of this was great

>>51874406
There is no Light Side, only the Force, And did you forget that Atton became a Jedi?

>>51875021
also meant for>>51874961

>>51875021
>Implying the Jedi aren't extinct after what happen at dantooine.
>Implying the Motley crew of Jedi trained by The Jedi Exile aren't Heretics that follow the teachings of the Dark lord of the Sith Traya.

Vrook, Kavar, and Zez-Kai Ell were killed in trying to carry out the will of the force. They were the last of the jedi. The Ones the Exile Trained are nothing more than heretics that follow the teachings of the Sith.

would anyone happen to have the Age of Rebellion pdf?

Me and my friends are trying to get into /tg/ and they are all pretty big star wars fans so I figured that may be a decent place to start.

>>51875392
Check /swg/. The first post always has a bunch of links to it, including most if not all of the RPG books from all three systems (d6, d20, FFG)

>>51875421
cool, thank you

>>51875133
The Exile canonically never agreed with Kreia, or her teachings and killed her, specifically, for being a Dark Lord of the Sith because she would not be redeemed. All of The Exile's masters, including Kreia were blind and did not understand that The Exile was the only true Jedi left after the First Purge, and that her students were the beginning of a reformed and renewed Jedi order that would last largely in peace until the Great Jedi Purge as orchestrated by The Dark Lord Of The Sith known as Sidious.

>>51875512
And Kreia canonically used a double-bladed lightsaber despite missing a hand.

Canon is stupid. It's also irrelevant, thanks to Disney.

>>51875605
Kreia also canonically used three separate sabers telekinetically, I'd think she was always able to do that while traveling with the Exile so Using a Double-bladed saber wouldn't be all that hard one-handed using the Force

>>51875605
Oh and when discussing this mouthpiece for Avellone, Legends Canon is all that is relevant, you faggot.

>>51875716
>mouthpiece for Avellone
I'm confused. Are we agreeing to judge the source material on its own merits, or are we including the later hackjobs made of it by other authors as "primary sources"?

>>51874210
If earth shown and there were force sensitives then it would be in our universe then would it

>>51875824
We're discussing Kreia, she is a mouthpiece for Avellone, as he wrote her dialogue.

>>51875884
>We're discussing Kreia, she is a mouthpiece for Avellone, as he wrote her dialogue.


>The Exile canonically never agreed with Kreia, or her teachings and killed her, specifically, for being a Dark Lord of the Sith because she would not be redeemed. All of The Exile's masters, including Kreia were blind and did not understand that The Exile was the only true Jedi left after the First Purge, and that her students were the beginning of a reformed and renewed Jedi order that would last largely in peace until the Great Jedi Purge as orchestrated by The Dark Lord Of The Sith known as Sidious.

Nothing in that paragraph was written by Avellone.

>>51875895
That segued into Kreia discussion here >>51875605
You didn't refute any of my points or assertions in the post that you responded to there. You then said Canon was irrelevant, thanks to disney, but Kreia and The Exile are both non-canon persons, so Legends Continuity aka Old Canon is the only one that matters.

The mouthpiece comment was just my assessment of why kreia is so fucking stupid from an out of universe perspective as it seems her creator deliberately misunderstood Star Wars to seem Edgy and Cool. That's not to say that I dislike her as an antagonist but she is a Sith whose ultimate goal was to kill the Force if The Exile did not kill her, and killing the Force is killing all life in the universe.

>>51844780
Respectfully, I disagree. Disregarding intentions disregards the spirit of a person. You devalue them and yourself by only worrying about the outcome.

>>51847253
I disagree. Charity doesn't strictly require giving money to someone else. You can spend time, emotional energy, or allow for emotional intimacy. All these things are charitable acts and can be done without showing your acts to the broader community. Furthermore, giving someone genuine emotional support requires you to be honestly invested in them. This rules out the being used for virtue signaling.

>>51834660
Only bad Star Wars is about black and white. Good Star Wars is about redemption and how easy it is to cross those lines. IE: Han Shoots First.

>>51865914
>Assuming the force is neutral itself.

Yeah, most ideologies fail if you just assume the opposite right from the start.

"Assuming there is no God, this Jesus guy is fucking insane."

>>51843406
Fair, it'd be like Kreia to fake her own death rather than return in shame. Although I thought her fall occurred after Revan's?

>>51878720
When Revan left for the unknown regions for the first time with malak. She found Trayus Academy and found the reason why he left.

>>51878790
Revan didn't leave until he had been redeemed, The only places he went with Malak were Rakata Prime and Korriban, He had felt that there was a threat in the Unknown regions but didn't know exactly what, only that it posed a threat to the Republic and the stress of that knowledge drove him to the Dark Side and to Sith doctrine.

>>51830999
they should have gone with the EU starkiller, a sleek ship with missiles that can cause a star to supernova. Would have made much more sense with the smaller scale of the enemy.

>>51879616
That's the Suncrusher, a.k.a the bullshit OP ice cream cone of doom.
Can take a Death-star superlaser hit or a supernova without any damage and ram a star destroyer to death, despite being no bigger than a fighter.

Easily the worst part of the EU.