Who would win?

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>>51787773
Picrelated

Silly Anon, don't you know these "famous character vs their own self from different timeline" debates are plain stupid?

>>51787887

The big E and sigmar are nothing alike.

sigmar's sympathetic for one, and he's not mind numbingly autistic.

and the emperor isn't a moron

>>51787773
Depands on wether or not the Custodians would allow him to unplug the Emperor

>>51787773

Big E would win that fight

But Sigmar is the better God to follow so who cares

Deus Vult

>>51787773
sigmar a best

>>51787773
As of great crusade/ WHFB? Emps, no doubt.
But sigmar's now a god and emps is a rotting corpse on a failing life support throne. I think the tables are a bit turned.

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>>51787773
>tfw Horus was literally tearing him apart

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slambo

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>>51787942
>Big E isn't sympathetic

ADB pls go and stay go

>>51788096

SLAMALS

>>51787773
I have this very wierd feeling like, Sigmar put emp's sword on the stove for a minute, and now emps picked it up and he's all like "Argh! the spicy keychain!" and Sigmar is like "I did it to my own brother!"

>>51788175
DOMINIQUE!

>>51787773
Big E, since he is much less SJW

>>51787849
AHHHH! SYLVANAS HELP ME!

>>51787773
Sigmar, he was actually a god, competent, not a corpse and not autistic

>>51787773
>Sigmar = Conan the Schwarzenegger
>Emperor = Conan the Spessbarbarian

Literary just two separate iterations of the same archetype character

>>51788096
Marbo

Well Sigmar is a primarch so...

>>51789923
Sigmar is not a primarch. Emprah is a Sigmarine.

>>51789980
The Old World was a mockery of Terra in the Eye of Terror.

>>51788015
This
Emps would win that battle, but Sigmar's followers would tear him apart afterwards.

>>51787942
>and the emperor isn't a moron
uuuuuuh

>>51790079
Black Library pls go.

>>51787773
Stormcast are basically immune to chaos and each one is a fucking Hero.

I'd say Sigmar is a better leader by far because he managed to Diplomance Mork and Gork.

I might even give a physical fight to Sigmar because he also wrestled with Mork and Gork too.

Emperor > Primarch

Sigmar
>Born into divinity
>God of smashing fools with a hammer
>Saved mankind because it was the right thing to do
>Created a proud Empire that grew even stronger over time
>Was defeated only by total Chaos apocalypse
>Survived the apocalypse and started rebuilding in a new world
>Superhuman army made from the greatest heroes of the Mortal Realms, totally incorruptible
>Friend of gods, dragons, dwarves, elves, as long as you're not Chaos you're cool

Emperor
>Got his powers in a shady deal with Chaos or something
>God of psychic mindtrick bullshit
>"Saved" mankind just so he could rule as an immortal dictator
>Created a cruel Imperium that was decaying from day one
>Defeated by one of his own idiot sons
>Turned into a vegetable to watch his work fall apart over the millenia
>Superhuman army made from kidnapped, brainwashed children, half of whom immediately joined Chaos
>Worst kind of fedora tipping atheist, total racist, weird ideas about women

>>51790157
AoS pls go

>>51790105

Even without the BL stuff, you have trouble escaping the conclusion that Emps is a moron.

>All right, I know I've got these super-warriors now, but lemme go make 20 generals to lead them, nevermind that I can start my expansion and do much of it without them anyway.
>Oh shit, Chaos yanked all of them away. Despite how I'll go on to deny the very EXISTENCE of Chaos because it's so intrinsically corrupting that nobody else can be trusted with that kind of info, I'll go and hunt for these guys, since I'm sure nothing bad could have happened to them.
>What's this? One of them is a fucking ax-crazy psychopath leading a doomed revolt and has literal spikes in his head? Better teleport him away and leave his men to die, since I'm sure he won't hold a grudge or anything.

Emps was a fucking retard. He's "Michael Bay movie villain" tier dumb.

>>51792079
>I'll simplify everything, that'll prove 'em!
BL pls go and stay go

>>51792141

Please explain, o learned anon, as to how Emps decisions regarding the Primarchs, especially Angron, weren't completely bumfuck retarded.

>>51792667
>ok, I need to reunite humnaity
>it will take a fuckton of time with warp travel
>have to populate the command structure with people who will do their job and won't die for ~1k yers
>they get scattered, fuck
>ok, let's just launch the crusade and find them on the way, filling leadership spots with them
>they are actually pretty competent
>have a ton of free time now to empire build, not having to lead a lot of forces yourself
>give basic knowledge about the warp to all primarchs, they won't need more anyways
>angron is a mess, but he'll do his job for a while, guy isn't a schemer and won't cause any trouble on his own, and can be easily controlled. Going to replace him later anyway.
>Konrad is stellar at his job
>Lorgar is creating a religion that clashes with Imperial Truth that I've created, gotta deal with it
>Lorgar, pls stop doing it
>Lorgar pls
>Seriously Lorgar
>Okay fuck it, time for some quality spanking
>it works
>Lorgar being a fucking manchild listens to the yes-man Erebus and yes-man Kor and lets himself get manipulated
>shit happens

Could go on further, but my point is that everything's justified from Emp's perspective

>>51788110
>egotistical
>stubborn
>unempathic
>xenophobic
>delusional
>literally wrong about how to win
>still mired in stupid Anatolian Warlord mindset despite being an ageless immortal superbeing

No, he's pretty much impossible to sympathize unless you've been suckered in by in-story propaganda.

>>51790794
There was a lot of evidence that the emps would just fade into the background after the galaxy was united.

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>>51793095
>>egoistical
>literally sacrifices himself to prevent Terra from becoming a new eye of terror.
>creates an empire to save humanity, because that's the only way

>>stubborn
>being stubborn about trying to save everyone is bad now

>>unempathic
>literally in the middle of saving everyone's ass, but considered unempathic because he's not some bleeding heart

>>xenophobic
>disliking xenos who either consider you trash or hate you is bad now

>>delusional
>considering that most people are not manchildren is being delusional now

>>literally wrong about how to win
>and yet Imperium is still alive and strong, ready to wreck chaos' collective ass, and kill armless failure for good

>>still mired in stupid Anatolian Warlord mindset despite being an ageless immortal superbeing
>being effective is stupid now

Also
>in-story propaganda.

ADB pls, did your dad melt all your toys while on a drunk?

>>51793011
>>have to populate the command structure with people who will do their job and won't die for ~1k yers


Why? Just have an officer corps, and replace them when they inevitably die of old age. I mean, it's not like they weren't going to do that with the imperial administration or the rest of the army.

>Could go on further, but my point is that everything's justified from Emp's perspective

Of course it is. That doesn't change the fact that Emps is a moron and his perspective doesn't mean much. Every retard thinks what they're doing is a good idea at the time.

>>51788379
don't insult feldom mommy you filthy orc cuckold

>>51793305
>Why?
You forget that Primarchs were superhumans with insane levels of int and wis, who got shit done on a mad scale. They were THE most competent people to do their job, and they did it splendidly. Even Angron was effective as fuck.


And then came BL and turned everyone into a fucking manchild, which turned the concept of primarchs on it's head. Horus Heresy series was a mistake.

>>51793419
>You forget that Primarchs were superhumans with insane levels of int and wis, who got shit done on a mad scale. They were THE most competent people to do their job, and they did it splendidly. Even Angron was effective as fuck.


Again, so what? The Astartes clearly don't need them to function, and creating beings that powerful is a massive internal risk which ultimately comes back to bite the IoM in the ass. Plus, and this is probably more the fault of the writers not being actual military geniuses themselves, they never actually seem to DO anything especially clever, it's pretty much an informed ability.

Don't waste however long it took making them in the first place, get the crusade started earlier, win.

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>>51787773
>Implying Sigmar is not one of the lost primarchs

>>51793471
>so what?
>army doesn't need a leader
The crusade took hundreds of years, super competent and immortal army leaders of super-solder legions were a must. Mortal would waste Emp's time by dying.

>internal risk
Previously, that were Chaos Gods corrupting Horus with pure Warp power, and this corrupting Horus making half of the primarchs betray the Emperor. And then came Horus Heresy and it all turned into Daddy Issues: The Story. Horus Heresy was a mistake.

>>51793581
>army doesn't need a leader

Of course the army needs leaders. Why do they need THESE SPECIFIC LEADERS? Why not just promote people from the ranks or train them for officer duty like a normal, functioning military?

>The crusade took hundreds of years, super competent and immortal army leaders of super-solder legions were a must

Why?

>Mortal would waste Emp's time by dying.

So what if they do? Just appoint the next one in the regular chain of command.

>Previously, that were Chaos Gods corrupting Horus with pure Warp power, and this corrupting Horus making half of the primarchs betray the Emperor.

And then having the power to actually challenge the Emperor and seriously fuck him up. I mean for fuck's sake, the ENTIRE reason you have the modern structure of the Imperium is precisely because a decentralized authority structure is less prone to a massive failure like that. But Emps is apparently not smart enough to figure this out, even though he is supposedly aware of the threat of Chaos and tries to take steps to prevent or at least slow down its influence.

>>51787773
MUH
DIK

>>51793301
>trump posters think the Emperor is sympathetic

Yeah, like I said, you need the kind of mind simple enough to be taken in by in-story propaganda to sympathize with Big E.

>>51793616
>THESE SPECIFIC LEADERS
Because Emps literally bred them from his own DNA for this role, how hard is it to understand? The were created to be competent and were better than the others.

>Why?
Nigga you dumb? I've explained it.

>So what if they do?
The problem is to find a fitting person for the job, not seccond in command.

>And then
>hur dur I don't know what is Reign of Blood: The post

Shit happens, the Emperor did his best to avoid that, and when it failed, he did his best to end it.

>>51793691
>it's the /tg/ poster is triggered by the image of Trump
Spotting chaos posters was never easier

>>51793616
You know that the marines were based off their primarvhs DNA right? The primarchs came first and then marines were created using their template.

With the primarchs most of the legions would have turned into literal cancer.

>>51793301
>literally sacrifices himself to prevent Terra from becoming a new eye of terror.

Because it was the only way to survive. He never intend on being the one stuck on the throne, in fact he made a kid for that horrible fate.

>creates an empire to save humanity, because that's the only way

He created an empire to feed his ego. And it was an awful empire where 99% of mankind lives in desperate squalor.

>literally in the middle of saving everyone's ass, but considered unempathic because he's not some bleeding heart

He's not saving everyone, he's saving a select group of people he approves of, and being capable of understanding human emotions is not the same as being a bleeding heart.

>disliking xenos who either consider you trash or hate you is bad now

The Emperor had an irrational hate for ALL xenos, whether they were friend or foe to humanity, or even if they had no knowledge of them and could never be a threat. This weakened his regime and continues to weaken the Imperium, as it means they have to be constantly fighting pointless wars of genocide instead of focusing on what's important.

>considering that most people are not manchildren is being delusional now

He was delusional because he believed he, and in turn mankind, was infallible. He was an ageless luminous being, and yet he still clung to stupid tribal illusions and used fantasies of racial supremacy to prop them up.

>and yet Imperium is still alive and strong, ready to wreck chaos' collective ass, and kill armless failure for good

Every single source states that the Imperium is teetering on the brink of oblivion, constantly losing ground, and survives only due to its immense size. The Imperium is falling apart, but it's so huge that to the average person on the inside it seems to sort of work.

>being effective is stupid now

He gave Chaos its greatest warriors in the mortal realm via Space Marines, and gave Chaos its greatest source of mortal believers via the Imperium.

>>51793733
>Because Emps literally bred them from his own DNA for this role, how hard is it to understand?


The part where you stop arguing from your conclusion in a circle. Emps believes he needs these leaders because he created them to be leaders and this proves he's not stupid. Nowhere have you even addressed the idea as to what sort of leadership qualities were necessary to carry out the Crusade, or whether or not ordinary Astartes would be up for the task (insofar as you can apply the word "ordinary" to a Space Marine".

>Nigga you dumb? I've explained it.

No, you haven't. You've simply asserted it as if it were fact without explaining jack shit. Why do you need Primarchs and not just regular Space Marines, other than to ease Emps autism so he doesn't have to learn a new name every few decades.

>The problem is to find a fitting person for the job, not seccond in command.

And what makes that so difficult? Lots of armies manage to struggle through this somehow, and the Imperium has been doing it for the past 10 millenia.

>hur dur I don't know what is Reign of Blood:

You mean how a guy who had pretty much full control over the Administratum and Ecclesiarchy as well as at least considerable influence with the Officio Assassinorum managed to spark off a civil war and hugely fuck things up? That doesn't seem to be a good argument against the merits of decentralizing things to stall against risk of civil strife.

>Shit happens, the Emperor did his best to avoid that,

And his "best" was an incredibly bad idea, which leads to the inesecapable conclusion: Emps is very dumb.

>>51793796
>You know that the marines were based off their primarvhs DNA right? The primarchs came first and then marines were created using their template.

In absence of the Primarchs themselves and from the "leftovers" or whatever from the labs that made them. Whatever material was used to construct them could have been easily done without bringing the Primarchs themselves to term, or just ignoring them once they're blasted off into space.

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>>51793754
>triggered

Just noting that only the easily-fooled believe the Emperor was a good guy.

There are no good guys in 40K. Also, Strawmanning everyone that disagrees with you as a 'Chaos poster' is pretty dumb, it's evident to anyone that isn't a complete idiot that the Emperor was not 40K's good guy.

40K is not about totalitarianism and xenophobia and ignorance being good. It's about them being stupid and literally ruining the galaxy.

>>51793854
Most of the legions needed their primarch to balance their gene seed out. Thousand sons, space wolves, and emperors children are the first to come to mind. Several of the legions needed their primarch in order to spiritually balance out. Iron warriors, salamanders come to mind, but those are the exceptions I know.

Then you get to the point were they couldn't mass produce marines until they were reunited with their primarch as their template was needed to grow their shit and reduce rejection to more acceptable level.

Either way the legions needed their primarchs.

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>>51793804
>in fact he made a kid for that horrible fate.
Actually no, the portal had to be sealed from the throne because THAT kid broke the fucking thing with sorcery, after his father telling him not to use the sorcery. It was never intended as a torture device, it was supposed to be just a control panel.
>Because it was the only way to survive.
And the fucked did it anyways, knowing that he could get reincarnated on another planet. He chose that to protect humanity, because he values it above his own life.
>He created an empire to feed his ego.
Lol.
>And it was an awful
It was noblebright as fuck before HH
>The Emperor had an irrational hate for ALL xenos
Which was justified.
>but some of them were friendly
eggs and omelettes
>he, and in turn mankind, was infallible.
He believed that we could stand and fight for ourselves (which we did during Great Crusade, and after his wound). Yes, shit has happened, but Imperium is still strong and ready to BTFO Chaos and Abby The Spineless
>fantasies of racial supremacy
lol
>Every single source states that the Imperium is teetering on the brink of oblivion
But it still stands, regaining territiries from time to time (Lord Solar and his crusad as an example). And it WILL continue to stand further.
>He gave Chaos its greatest warriors
Traitors gave themselves to Chaos, not Emps.
And look how good they are at their job not really. Took 10k years to destroy a single planet, and they didn't even do that, necron tech broke.

>>51793860
>There are no good guys in 40K.
Lol
>Lamenters
>Sanguinius
>Emps

>Strawmanning everyone that disagrees with you as a 'Chaos poster' is pretty dumb
But it works

>it's evident to anyone that isn't a complete idiot that the Emperor was not 40K's good guy.
>le strawman, but I'm gonna use another strawman myself
Not gonna work, dude

>40K is not about totalitarianism and xenophobia and ignorance being good.
I'll not go into what "40k is about", because that's another (although short) topic, but moderate xenophobia and totalitarianism were the things that save humanity in 30k.

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>>51793823

>>51793860
I think that things would be much worse for humanity without the machinations of the Emperor. Arguably for that Tau, too.

Without the Emperor creating the Imperium, it'd be the Orkperium vs Tyranids, with the Necrons in the background occasionally waking up to tell both to get the fuck off their lawns (with gauss).

>>51793990
>And the fucked did it anyways, knowing that he could get reincarnated on another planet. He chose that to protect humanity, because he values it above his own life.

He reincarnated as a human because he had been human before. That's it.

>Lol.

10/10 argument.

>It was noblebright as fuck before HH

No, it wasn't. It was still a backwards shithole where the Emperor's chosen warlords could slaughter and destroy as they felt necessary, little to no questions asked, and the vast majority of the populace was enslaved to fuel its war machine. Nigga, just process of creating Space Marines is grimdark as fuck.

>Which was justified.

All evidence suggests otherwise.

>He believed that we could stand and fight for ourselves (which we did during Great Crusade, and after his wound).

No, he just believed humanity was perfect because he was human. That's it. He was an egotistical asshole caught up in his own hubris.

>lol

Another stellar argument.

>But it still stands, regaining territiries from time to time (Lord Solar and his crusad as an example). And it WILL continue to stand further.

The Imperium is explicitly stated to be collapsing.

>Traitors gave themselves to Chaos, not Emps.

Yes. But his incompetence put them in a situation where they had no knowledge of Chaos' shenanigans, and he created these warriors in the first place. Also, he was 100% wrong about lack of belief killing Chaos, and his disastrously evil empire gives Chaos more followers than anyone through its cruelty and ignorance.

>Took 10k years to destroy a single planet, and they didn't even do that, necron tech broke.

Kek, you don't even know the fluff, do you? Nothing broke, you've been taken in by /tg/ memery. Abaddon dropped the remains of a Blackstone Fortress on Cadia, causing it to enter tectonic instability. The pylons exploding is a /tg/ myth.

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>>51787773
This guy right here, that's who.
The other two just don't understand branding and merch.

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>>51794120
>>51794107
>le racism and bigotry
>le I don't want to dirty my hands
>le a person must be evil if he creates an empire
>le a person can't be altruistic in his desire to help his own race (humans)

>>51794088
>Lamenters

Genocidal assholes.

>Sanguinius

Genocidal asshole.

>Emps

Genocidal asshole.

>But it works

It certainly makes you look like an idiot, sure.

>le strawman, but I'm gonna use another strawman myself

Are you an idiot? That was ad hominem, not strawman. Learn your basic argumentative techniques dude.

>I'll not go into what "40k is about"

Because you know I'm right.

>but moderate xenophobia and totalitarianism were the things that save humanity in 30k.

Humanity hasn't been saved you idiot. The vast majority of humanity live lives of abject suffering under the Imperium, which is actively making everything worse by providing Chaos with followers, distracting everyone in the galaxy from the real enemy with its pointless religious wars, and generally fucking everything up. The Imperium is humanity's long, torturous death, and probably the entire galaxy's death.

>>51794107


Interesting ad hominem you've got there. I think we're done here.

>>51794120
>it wasn't justified

When mankind's ability to travel from one system to another almost every xenos race turned on man and made each planet a bastion. Plus it seems 90% of xenos were hostile towards man, the other only tolerate peoples company because they can get something out of it.

>>51794230
We sure are

>>51794186
>>le racism and bigotry

Yeah, those things are bad and disrupt attempts to create a good society. They also, in the context of 40K, feed Chaos.

>le I don't want to dirty my hands

Wew, it must be nice to be able to just invent arguments to fight against when you have no answer to the ones that are there.

>le a person must be evil if he creates an empire

See above.

>le a person can't be altruistic in his desire to help his own race (humans)

See above.

>>51794247
>When mankind's ability to travel from one system to another almost every xenos race turned on man and made each planet a bastion

Wrong, the fluff states that SOME xenos did, specifically those that mankind had made any enemy of.

>Plus it seems 90% of xenos were hostile towards man

We have literally no evidence of this. Aside from orks, the only aliens from back then we have any fluff on are the allies of the Interex, who were friendly, the Eldar, who traded peacefully with mankind, and a nomadic species that took in homeless humans after the Fall, and whose last transmission before being destroyed by the Imperium was "We just wanted to be left alone."

>>51794296
Every race had it's chance to gain control of the galaxy. Eldar even said it's time for people to run this shit.

>>51794120
You sound like my wife.

She's a total pussy as well.

>>51794296
>and a nomadic species that took in homeless humans after the Fall, and whose last transmission before being destroyed by the Imperium was "We just wanted to be left alone."

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Diasporex

Almost forgot these guys. Probably the best example of the Imperium and the Emperor being truly evil shitheads.

>>51794351
Literally irrelevant to the discussion.

Having the chance to run shit does not mean you should go around enslaving the vast majority of your own species, killing everyone that disagrees with you, and wasting lives and effort on genocidal wars.

>>51793860
>>51794088
>>51794109
>40K is not about totalitarianism and xenophobia and ignorance being good. It's about them being stupid and literally ruining the galaxy.
I'd add it's about absolutely everybody (except maybe a hundred or so individuals) being a dumb asshole and believing they're absolutely, unquestionably right, making it impossible to un-ruin the galaxy.
Defending a faction instead of laughing at how everybody in that universe is stupid is (kinda) giving in to the same mindset that made the 40k galaxy a shit place to live in.

>>51794230
>>51794206
I think it's an ad personam actually, but I'm too tired to check.

>>51794368
Cut her some slack bruh, she's probably gotta put a lot of effort into faking her orgasms.

Constantly pretending that your husband is competent must be seriously draining.

>>51794392
>>51794296
>>51794254
>>51794206
Y'all are missing the fact that there aren't suppose to be any cookie cutter good/bad factions in 40k

>>51794486
No effort required.

>TFW I realize i will never be able to go balls deep in my wife.

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>>51788083

>>51794505
No, that's what I'm stating.

The other guy is arguing that the Emperor and the Imperium are the good guys. But there are no good guys in 40K. The Emperor and the Imperium were bad guys and are part of what makes 40K a setting where there are no 'goodies'. They've killed all the good guy civilizations.

Probably the closest things to real heroes in the universe are relatively small-scale characters like Ciaphas Cain, who is an absolutely terrible Imperial and beats himself up over it but is a great hero.

This autism proves that 40k is a cancer

>>51794428

It would depend if he was actually trying to use it to disprove >>51793823's point, in which case it would be an ad hominem by attempting to discredit the argument by attacking its source; or if he was just trying to insult the guy and get under his skin, at which point it's an ad personam.

We'll probably never entirely know for certain, although my money is just on "cheap trolling for replies".

>>51794535
>i've been arguing with a castrato

Wow.

Props dude, that's some dedication to the musical arts.

>>51794626
A liberal pussy is trying to insult someone, gets autism. Sad!

>>51794658
What sad events led to your life that you spend so long on an anime image board not only arguing about poorly written lowest common denominator science fiction, but being wrong about it too?

allright, who let /pol/ in?

JANITOR, PURGE THIS THREAD!

>>51794613
Let's be realistic now.

On 4chan, insults are basically punctuation.

>>51794626
>Castroto

Uncle Ben once told a naive Peter Parker that with great power comes great responsibility.

In his case it's about lining NYC with sticky string. In mine it's to stop slamming it in about half an inch from the cervix.

>>51794658
>anon is outplayed in every way
>oh shit he's starting to realize how dumb he looks
>"a-autism amirite guys!?"
>"saying autism makes me right, right?"

You need to leave.

>>51794767
>muh /pol/ boogyman
How easily triggered are you, dude? I noticed that /tg/ was going the /co/ way, but come the hell on, we didn't even mention irl politics.
>le trump pic
It's a fucking reaction image, grow a thicker skin.

>>51794747
Being correct about cuckold libs helps, pussy faggot.

>>51794865

Still inciting baits /pol/fag

JANITOR! PURGE THIS FUCKER BACK TO 8ch

>>51794841
Not even the original poster, dude. Pls apply yourself.

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>>51794801
>he can't line NYC with sticky string

>>51794865
To be fair, the trumpposter dude was clearly conflating IRL politics with fictional politics in his posts.

It's almost like he couldn't tell the two apart.

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>>51794888
>triggering /tg/ posters just by arguing with them
Woah

>he doesn't even know how to report

>>51794865
You need to go back to /pol/ anon

>>51794921
Actually no. And it was indeed just a reaction image, but, to be fair, I knew that it triggers /tg/.

>>51794954
Please, anyone that uses the term 'cuckold libtards' seriously is pure /pol/.

Leave.

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>>51794996
>you can't use an insult because I say so
Are we back to calling everyone a dumb nigger or a faggot? "Cuckold libtard" has a nice kick to it, and it triggers people.

>Leave.

>>51794996

just report and leave the janitor do the job, also report OP

>>51794892
Fucking elves with their masculine femme faces and female bodies.

Fucking hate elves

>>51794206
>le genocidal asshole
Kill yourself xeno cuck, go play starcraft and fuck off from 40k.

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>it's an ''autists apply 21 century first world liberal values to the grim darkness of the far future and expect anything other then disdain''
Kill yourselves. Seriously.
>some cuck talking shit about SANGUINIUS
>FUCKING SANGUINIUS
End yourself.

>i know better then the millennia old godlike supergenius, also his and my perspective are completely the same
>even though i literally never endured an iota of actual strife i'll judge how a civilization on the verge of extinction beset by the literal forces of Hell acts
This is all you spew, every fucking time.

>>51796249
You literally don't understand the setting.

The setting of 40K is hopeless and grimdark because bad decisions, including the bad decisions of the Emperor and the Imperium, made it that way.

It's not about necessary evils. In fact, every single bit of writing illustrates that the way the Imperium operates is unnecessary as fuck, with half its policies being rooted in extremely inefficient backwards doctrine. The point of 40K is that for all his power and might, the Emperor was still fundamentally human, and humans are flawed, the worst angels of their nature triumphing over the better very easily. The galaxy is only as bad as it is because he made poor decisions and insisted on being a huge space Nazi.

Now, look, I know it makes your dick tingle when you pretend that 40K supports your more fascistic views, but it doesn't. 40K is about people acting that way and ruining the galaxy because of it.

>people trying to argue the Imperium and the Emperor are justified

What part of "this started out as Black Comedy" don't you fuckers get? Yeah GW might be taking this shit seriously now for the benefit of edgy 12 year olds who convince mom to buy them overpriced models. But this started as a bunch of Brits in the 80s making an even more outlandish version of their already outlandish Warhammer setting as satire.

Stop fucking arguing about how the Emperor was Right and how the Imperium is humanity's best chance in a galaxy beyond hope. The're jokes. Brutal, inefficient, jingoistic, and superstitious jokes that we the audience are supposed to laugh AT and not WITH

>>51796138
Out of the two of us, I'm the one who actually appreciates 40K for what it is, rather than what he wants it to be.

You're just a dumbass either so dependent on your favourite faction being right that you're willing to abandon all logic, or you're finding validation in the idea that the Emperor supports your views. Either way, you simply don't get 40K, which is pretty impressive considering how simple it is.

>>51788083
>YOU'RE LYING I NEVER ABANDONED YOU
>YOU'RE TEARING ME APART HORUS

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>>51796365

>>51796384
>Yeah GW might be taking this shit seriously now for the benefit of edgy 12 year olds who convince mom to buy them overpriced models.

They're still not really.

Every single edition of 40K has stated that the Imperium is the most inefficient, pointlessly brutal, worst government imaginable. Often this is one of the first things said, in almost those exact words, in the core rulebook. Fluff continues to paint the Imperium and the Emperor as absolute assholes that ruined everything.

But, in a bizarre irony, the delusional Imperiumfags and closet /pol/acks insist that all this is just retconning by Black Library, when this has been the nature of 40K since its very inception.

The Emperor was a shithead who was cavorting with powers far beyond his control and messed up, partially because his ideas were inherently flawed, because he was a flawed and barbaric man. Deal with it faggots.

>>51796365
>The galaxy is only as bad as it is because he made poor decisions and insisted on being a huge space Nazi.
Yup, had nothing to do with there existing a literal Hell-dimension full of Satan-esque gods, and the Eldar fucking a hole into reality fom them. Nope, it's the guy who tried to fix everything that's at fault.
>Now, look, I know it makes your dick tingle when you pretend that 40K supports your more fascistic views
>aliens literally treat humans like cattle or worse
>''shit, we better kill them''
>''y-y-you fascist!''
lmao@your life

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>>51796447
>literally no argument to provide in return

>>51796519
>Yup, had nothing to do with there existing a literal Hell-dimension full of Satan-esque gods, and the Eldar fucking a hole into reality fom them. Nope, it's the guy who tried to fix everything that's at fault.

Have you considered that he simply made things worse? Because he did.

Have you also considered that things were getting better without him? The Emperor encountered tons of expanding spacefaring civilizations that were doing pretty well. Things only went to shit when he burned everything down, gave Chaos its greatest champions, and provided an empire full of desperate slaves who will turn to Chaos at the slightest provocation.

Notice that there was absolutely minimal Chaos presence in the galaxy during the Great Crusade. I fucking wonder why, it's almost like Chaos gets most of its followers from the Imperium or something?

>aliens literally treat humans like cattle or worse

See
>>51794296
>>51794392
We actually have every indication that many, if not most aliens, were not hostile to mankind. And it doesn't matter, because Emps even killed the friendly ones, because he was a retard.

By the way, the fact that stuff like the Diasporex and the Interex existed shows that the galaxy was recovering pretty damn well without the Emperor. Only one he appeared did Chaos find a way to destroy all this stuff.

>literal gods of evil conspiring to bring humanity to ruin
>aliens from all sides committing atrocities and genocide
>Emperor literally the only reason humanity still exists at all
>''I-I-It's all his fault!''
This is amazing. I don't know why i even got riled up, this is hilarious. It's just like a comment on some cuck's blog about how humanity doesn't need Emperor, and some guy just goes ''Reading this was like reading an 8th grader explaining why his uncle sucks for fighting in Vietnam''.

>>51796608
>literal gods of evil conspiring to bring humanity to ruin

...Who were actually not really doing very well at this until the Emperor came along.

>aliens from all sides committing atrocities and genocide

Almost all the pre-Fall and Great Crusade aliens we know of were either at peace or actually allied with mankind until the Emperor came along.

>Emperor literally the only reason humanity still exists at all

The Great Crusade encountered lots of human societies expanding through space. They were fine without him.

It really is all his fault.

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>>51787942
HAHAHAHA HOW LITTLE YOU ACTUALLY KNOW ABOUT SIGMAR. HE'S NOT ONLY THE STRONGEST ENTITY ALIVE BUT HE IS SUPER SMART TOO. BUY ALL HIS MODELS ONLINE RIGHT NOW FOR $59.99 WOW WHAT A DEAL!

>>51796584
>>51796645
I love how you ignore that Emperor allowed humanity to advance on it's own and only stepped in when it was literally on the brink of extinction.
Also, you actually believe Chaos wouldn't be a threat? So all those Chaos worshiping worlds they kept coming across during the Great Crusade were nothing? Had the Emperor not stepped in and acted as quickly as he did, there would have been nothing to beat back the forces of Chaos. Or the Beast. Or the Tyranids. Oh, but of course, in your fantasy world all of those civilizations would have independently developed and reunited just as fast without The Emperor, right? It's incredible how smug you can be when you literally can't perceive the most basic things about the setting. Chaos was a massive threat, Slaanesh had just been born, the Eye of terror was open and a fuckton of worlds was under warpstorms or aliens. The Emperor literally saved mankind.

>>51793616
No Primarchs.
No spess mahrines.

The chapters were built around the Primarchs. Without them, you end up with an army like the Thunder Warriors that is difficult to control and unpredictable.

And it's not like they were unstoppable to the Emperor. He took the beating from Horus because he didn't want to kill him, once he realized Hours must be killed, he used the full extent of his powers and dispatched of Hours easily. And Hours was arguably the most powerful Primarch.

The Primarchs were an objectively good idea, the plan itself didn't backfire as much as it was sabotaged.

>>51796608
>and some guy just goes ''Reading this was like reading an 8th grader explaining why his uncle sucks for fighting in Vietnam''.
Well that's GW audience

>>51796729
>I love how you ignore that Emperor allowed humanity to advance on it's own and only stepped in when it was literally on the brink of extinction.

The Emperor was constantly meddling. He took numerous roles during history and only stepped out of the shadows when it was clear he could no longer control humanity covertly.

>Also, you actually believe Chaos wouldn't be a threat?

No. But it would be less of a thread had the Emperor not handed it its greatest champions and created the perfect circumstances for it to feed and gain followers.

>So all those Chaos worshiping worlds they kept coming across during the Great Crusade were nothing?

You mean, like, all one of them? The only Chaos-worshiping society we know of from that period were the aliens Fulgrim ran into. And the only reason his contact with them ended in his corruption was because the Emperor, in his tremendous stupidity, had neglected to inform his sons that Quadruple Satan exists and may try some weird shit on you.

>Had the Emperor not stepped in and acted as quickly as he did, there would have been nothing to beat back the forces of Chaos. Or the Beast. Or the Tyranids. Oh, but of course, in your fantasy world all of those civilizations would have independently developed and reunited just as fast without The Emperor, right?

They were already developing and reuniting. Some were developing far faster and better than the Imperium, they just weren't as warlike.

>Chaos was a massive threat

And the Emperor made it more powerful.

>The Emperor literally saved mankind.

Mankind was already saving itself. The Emperor doomed it.

>>51788096
i dont know about you guys but that is one SLAAAAAMMMMMMIN' model

>>51787773

The Emperor has it stacked in his favor, but Sigmar is the good guy.

>>51794186
Devolving into memery without providing any actual counterarguments is the same as admitting that you've lost

>>51790794

>Worst kind of fedora tipping atheist, total racist, weird ideas about women

You had me until that part. All hail the Emperor.

>>51794120
where is it stated to be collapsing? is this in a new book

You are all painfully autistic.

I thought the /pol/fags would be the most autistic but I was wrong, this whole thread is painfully autistic.

>>51802838
You can't see the hybrid specie /pol|tg/ here?

>>51802947
The guys against the /pol/acks are also painfully autistic. I don't mean this as some le middle road maymay man shenanigans, I mean they're legitimately painful to read.

>>51796365
Bingo.

>>51802965
Out of interest, can you elaborate on what autistic means here? Like, in the context of this post?

>>51803644
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism#Characteristics

>>51800717
>You mean, like, all one of them?
>Colchis
>the ones Word Bearers kept constantly running into
Fuck, the whole point of Lorgar being corrupted was that he kept running into worlds that had no contact with eachother yet shared the exact same faith.
>They were already developing and reuniting
At a snail's pace. Most of them didn't even have electricity for fuck's sake.
>Some were developing far faster and better than the Imperium
Which is why they got rekt by a single legion, right. Best case scenario without Emperor was an iota of worlds developing super tech only to get swarmed by the fuckton of Chaos worshiping worlds (which would have been innumerable, since during the Great Crusade they purged a fuckton of Chaos worshipers, they just didn't know what they were), or The Beast steamrolling everything.
>And the Emperor made it more powerful
No, the Eldar did. The Emperor gave humanity the strongest empire in the galaxy and a fighting chance. The Eldar created and empowered a new god and gave Chaos direct access to Materium. That's all it took.
>Mankind was already saving itself
>Age of Strife
>countless worlds thrown back to stone age
>daemonic possessions, warp storms and xeno enslavement everywhere
>0,000000000001% of worlds making it trough that on their own means humanity didn't need Emperor
You really can't comprehend this, can you? You're so butthurt about one or two muh noblebright civilizations being wiped out, you can't grasp how vital The Emperor was in humanity's survival.

>>51803813
Not the same guy, but a lot of this is wrong.

Lorgar never ran into any actual Chaos controlled worlds, just planets where local deities or historical figures had close similarities. Chaos had yet to actually start taking planets with daemon armies and shit.

There were lots of civilizations way past the development of electricity. Many were more advanced than the Imperium. They just weren't wholly devoted to expansion and war.

Despite what the Eldar did, Chaos did not have the presence in the materium that it does after the Heresy. It clearly still needed material agents, and the Heresy gave them that.

The Age of Strife was over and people were putting shit back together by the time of the Crusade. The Emperor was just one route to survival and he fucked up. This is kinda the point of the Emperor, he was wrong about how to proceed and a lot of his policies were influenced by stupid thinking that only fed Chaos and wasted resources.

Really, the Emperor should have just offered worlds protectorate status and let them quickly assimilate due to the obvious advantages of being part of a powerful galactic community. He should have taken worlds that were highly resistant or had fallen into stupid practices and kept the alliances many human civilizations already had with xenos.

Why? Because this is a more efficient way to run things. Having protectorate states frees these entities somewhat from the Mechanicus, which was a constant thorn in the Emperor's side, and maintaining close alliances simply saves effort and manpower, while also making it easier to run the galaxy, as you don't have to worry yourself about how they're handling their shit.

The Emperor undoubtedly had good intentions, but he didn't understand that he was weakening the galaxy, and that his swollen war machine was creating a type 90 industry and culture that actually feeds Chaos followers. He should have realized that he only needed to conquer what he had to, rather than conquering EVERYTHING, which was turning his domain into an ideal breeding grind for Chaos. He could maintain a vast army of Space Marines without dominion over the entire galaxy, and not having to worry about wasting time and effort on Peaceful Xeno Race #767899381 would provide a far more focused effort against Chaos.

I guess he should also have realized that you can't right Chaos with ignorance. The entire point of several Crusade era civs the Imperium encountered was to illustrate that this never works, and it's better to educate people on the threat.

>>51803954
>Chaos had yet to actually start taking planets with daemon armies and shit.
This was because they had planned the Heresy and couldn't fully reveal themselves before then. Yes, it's true that The Imperium gave them resources, but without The Emperor they would have simply directly taken over the numerous planets they already had their roots in and them steamrolled the isolated human civilizations. Or, like i said, The Beast.
>There were lots of civilizations way past the development of electricity.
And a lot of them still had bows and arrows. Like, A LOT.
>Many were more advanced than the Imperium. They just weren't wholly devoted to expansion and war.
The Emperor had to work fast and focus on the military. The second he got some alone time he easily invented far superior tech to any of them.
>Chaos did not have the presence in the materium that it does after the Heresy
Because they were laying low before the Heresy. They had many followers on many worlds.
>The Age of Strife was over and people were putting shit back together by the time of the Crusade
A very small number of worlds that would have been steamrolled by Chaos, Orks, Tyranids or even Dark Eldar. There was no chance of united human galactic empire without The Great Crusade working as insanely fast and efficient as it did. Chaos realized it couldn't win the race so it decided to screw Emps over, which it did because he didn't count of almost EVERYONE he works with being a massive manchild.
>he was wrong about how to proceed and a lot of his policies were influenced by stupid thinking
Knowledge of Chaos alone is enough to corrupt and feed it.

>>51804380
>but without The Emperor they would have simply directly taken over the numerous planets they already had their roots in and them steamrolled the isolated human civilizations. Or, like i said, The Beast.

If they could do this, why even bother with the Heresy gambit? If they could have had a united empire of millions of daemon worlds by the time the Emperor came with his Crusade, there's no point in waiting.

>A very small number of worlds that would have been steamrolled by Chaos, Orks, Tyranids or even Dark Eldar. There was no chance of united human galactic empire without The Great Crusade working as insanely fast and efficient as it did.

You legit don't know this. Pretty much any of the more diplomatic civilizations were building galactic communities and were advancing St a rapid pace. There was literally no point in destroying them once they had gotten to that point, they were far more valuable as allies.

>Knowledge of Chaos alone is enough to corrupt and feed it.

It's been demonstrated beyond doubt that ignorance of Chaos is far worse. Lorgar for example would have been 200% loyal had the Emperor just explained that the Chaos Gods were just astral parasites seeking to deceive godly men. That would have actually made him mad as fuck at them. Fulgrim would be loyal had he known of Chaos. Horus would be loyal had Big E explained that he had to leave the front to fight these horrible space demon things and stopped hiding shit form him, which is what made Horus feel like he was being fucked with.

Warp mechanics should have been mandatory to the Imperium's curriculum. Shit, Big E should have nabbed something like the Path system too, preaching rigorous emotional control and focus. It works for a race who are literally being nommed at all times by Slaanesh, it would work super well for humans, and would be far better at denying Chaos fuel than eliminating religion.

>>51804532
By the way, before you state that building alliances was too slow, that's bull.

The Emperor is a supernaturally charismatic superman. Furthermore, he could provide actual proof that everyone had to band together or get fucked by Chaos. AND if he was able to coordinate an empire of over a million worlds, a much harder task, he could have diplomanced his way to a united galaxy in half the time. He only when the KILL EVERYTHING route because he wanted to.

Not saying 40K should be more noble bright or anything, it's great as it is. But it's clear that the Emperor's methods were involved in making it a fantastically grimdark setting.

>>51787942
How was Sigmar a moron?

>>51804532
>If they could do this, why even bother with the Heresy gambit?
Simple.
1.They would give the Imperium at large knowledge of Chaos too soon, some would be corrupted but not nearly enough and countermeasures would have been implemented, now you have a ton of legions and Primarchs aware of Chaos and able to effectively combat it.
2. They wouldn't have nearly the tech they do now, especially since AdMech wouldn't join them. Also, no mortal followers of Chaos could stand up to Space Marine Legions.
3. The Emperor himself would steamroll them.
4. No way could they unite an Empire fast enough to oppose Imperium, and even if they did it wouldn't be nearly as strong due to lack of tech and quality soldiers. Not to mention the Gods themselves being weaker.
>Pretty much any of the more diplomatic civilizations were building galactic communities
A lot of them had covert Chaos influence. Hell, Interex kept fucking Chaos artifacts around.
>b-b-but they knew what it was
Yes. And how many super loyal Inquisitors get corrupted for just reading a fucking page out of a book? Chaos had sunk it's claws deep, but it understood that it could never take the Emperor head on, so it had to undermine him.

The only thing i agree with is that he should have let the Primarchs know. But The Emperor's flaw was that he had grown detached, he had lived for millennia, see humanity constantly fuck up in the same ways again, all his friends and lovers kept dying in the blinks of an eye, he got it in his head that since he's the oldest, smartest and most powerful (which he is), he can do no wrong, and he spread himself to thin, and didn't count on his sons fucking up that much. But he was mostly right, and The Imperium was a great idea, and one that kinda worked.

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>>51804609
He hated xenos because he saw literally every alliance with aliens ever end up with humans betrayed, used and discarded. Aliens treated humans like slaves, cattle or worse.

>>51804638
-The Ghal Maraz throw at the Battle of Burning Skies.
-Trusting Nagash and then trusting him again

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>Sigmar
>Good

A reminder that he abandoned his most faithful and devoted servant in his direst moment of need. The forsaken one had no choice but become what the Chaos Gods wanted him to be. Deep within he still cries to Sigmar to save and absolve him.

>>51804697
That's not even close to the truth.

When the Big Warp Shenanigans started, the aliens looked to their own problems instead of honouring their alliances with humanity. That's it. That's all they did.

>>51805119
Before the height of humanity, the earliest colonies where isolated and thus easy pickings for aliens. During the Age of Strife, many worlds suffered the same fate. Emperor never forgot this, nor should he have.

>>51805119
And they deserved death for that if not more

>>51804946
just hit him with Ghal Maraz
If there's any truth to what you said he'll be reborn as a Stormcast Eternal.

If not you're a lying sack of shit.

>>51805437
Of course he should have. Do you want to live in the world he made?
>>51805562
>deserve

>>51805654
How the fuck are you arguing that backstabbing dealbreakers should not be punished by death?

>>51805680
Don't pretend it's not the default position of all good westerners.

Although I just don't like spooks.

>>51805654
>Do you want to live in the world he made?
As opposed to the one that Chaos or the Xenos would? Fuck yes.

how does an immortal being with godlike powers and knowledge thinks anyway? isn't it impossible to imagine?

i personally think the Emperor would be egoistic because he is immortal and unimaginably powerful he may try to keep it on the downlow but it would be pretty hard not to be with countless billions living and dying at your command

insufferable because he is a genius with the knowledge of all of human history thus making him be, maybe, unintentionally vague thinking you see his plans and thoughts because how stupid do you have to be not to right? if he sees it why don't you? and shot tempered because the same things.

i do think he had the best interest of humanity at heart, but at the end of the day i don't think he factored in "humans are not as perfect as me"

>>51790794
>Created a cruel Imperium that was decaying from day one

The Imperium has lasted longer than we've had written language. It's the most successful civilization in mankind's entire history.

>>51790794
End yourself, tumblr. Ave Imperator, mors inimicis.

>>51790794
>Sigmar
>>Born into divinity
>>God of smashing fools with a hammer
>>Saved mankind because it was the right thing to do
>>Created a proud Empire that grew even stronger over time
>>Was defeated only by total Chaos apocalypse
>>Survived the apocalypse and started rebuilding in a new world
>>Superhuman army made from the greatest heroes of the Mortal Realms, totally incorruptible
>>Friend of gods, dragons, dwarves, elves, as long as you're not Chaos you're cool
Literally Marry Sueish god of SJW

>>51804653
>1.They would give the Imperium at large knowledge of Chaos too soon, some would be corrupted but not nearly enough and countermeasures would have been implemented, now you have a ton of legions and Primarchs aware of Chaos and able to effectively combat it.

Except of Chaos owns everything before the Emperor gets to space it doesn't matter, they've won already.

>2. They wouldn't have nearly the tech they do now, especially since AdMech wouldn't join them. Also, no mortal followers of Chaos could stand up to Space Marine Legions.

There were tons of civilizations with better tech than the AdMech. If Chaos took over them, they'd be far superior, and if they had the ENTIRE FUCKING GALAXY they could roflstomp the Emperor before he became an issue.

>3. The Emperor himself would steamroll them.

It's canon that the Emperor can't even face the Chaos gods directly because he'd lose all his powers.

>4. No way could they unite an Empire fast enough to oppose Imperium, and even if they did it wouldn't be nearly as strong due to lack of tech and quality soldiers. Not to mention the Gods themselves being weaker.

They had the entire Age of Strife to do this, which was like the perfect time for them to strike. Clearly, the problem was more than just one of time.

As for the rest of your points, see above.

>A lot of them had covert Chaos influence.

SOME of them. Not nearly all of them.

>Hell, Interex kept fucking Chaos artifacts around.

To study, to better fight Chaos. Which they were doing very well at. Chaos only found a way to destroy them through the Imperium.

>Inquisitors get corrupted

Have you considered that maybe an egotisical super-class of people trained to be violent, scheming assholes are pretty vulnerable to Chaos? Inquisitors are easy to turn because the line between what they do normally and Chaos shit is so thin.

>>51804697
>He hated xenos because he saw literally every alliance with aliens ever end up with humans betrayed, used and discarded. Aliens treated humans like slaves, cattle or worse.

Except that's not true.

Aliens for the most part took care of themselves during the Age of Strife because everything was going to shit and they had to. And there are multiple instances of aliens maintaining their alliances with humans, or even saving humans that had been displaced during the Age of Strife.

Shit there were Corsair/Exodite that went out of their way to save humans from Dark Eldar, killing their kin in the process.

The Emperor's hate was pure kneejerk xenophobia.

>"hurr you dumb libtards fucking don't understand why genocide and ignorance are necessary for making a great empire!"
>"fucking libtards can't think outside of their present day bluepilled shitbrains!"

Literally not a single successful empire in history has had a policy of total genocide. Not the Mongols, not the Romans, not the British, not America. Why? Because it is infinitely more efficient to bring other nations into your empire and assimilate their people, learning from them and gaining from their insights and knowledge. Sometimes it's more useful to not even bring them into your empire, but rebuild them and make them dependent, so you can maintain a presence in their territory without having to waste time managing their shit.

You know what kind of people DO have policies of total genocide? Shitty African tribes that will never matter ever, smalltime terrorists that will barely shift the sands of history. Why? Because they're shortsighted and poorly run, much like the Imperium.

Not a single successful empire has had a policy of ignorance either. Every single problem mankind has ever encountered is defeated through learning and study, not through ignoring it. Nations that ignore die.

>>51807665
How many of those Empires spanned an entire galaxy, and had the literal forces of Hell as their enemy?
>entire species view you as cattle, at best for their labour, at worst as amusement to torture/kill
>''Y-You shouldn't kill them!''

>>51805920
>It's the most successful civilization in mankind's entire history.

Even in-universe that's not true.

The DAoT civilization ran for much longer with a much greater quality of life for its people and far greater accomplishments, only collapsing due a completely unforeseen outside influence.

Compared to it the Imperium is a mess. It barely holds itself together, remaining in power solely due to the inertia of having been established on such a wide scale. It has failed in every way from the Emperor's perspective, having regressed technologically and culturally, and plunging the vast majority of mankind into lives of squalid, meaningless slavery. Rather than taking mankind into a utopian future as intended, it has stagnated for ten thousand years, getting increasingly more barbaric, ungovernable and ignorant. For most of humanity it is hell incarnate, and it's still falling apart, every institution coming loose and breaking down, just on such an immense scale that from an inside, limited perspective of someone with power and wealth, it looks like it's kind of functioning.

>>51807769
>>entire species view you as cattle, at best for their labour, at worst as amusement to torture/kill

The idea that all, or even most, aliens were like this has already been disproven.

Keep up, sonny.

>>51807769
>How many of those Empires spanned an entire galaxy

This would just compound the need to be efficient, which total genocide is not.

>and had the literal forces of Hell as their enemy?

THIS WOULD JUST COMPOUND THE NEED TO BE EFFICIENT, WHICH TOTAL GENOCIDE IS NOT.

>entire species view you as cattle, at best for their labour, at worst as amusement to torture/kill

This isn't true though. It's been pointed out to you multiple times that this is wrong. Stop repeating this lie.

>>51807841
>>51807883
>stop repeating this lie
And where the fuck is your evidence of most aliens being friendly? Because i've never heard or read this shit until you started spewing it. Your entire retarded argument is based on the premise that Emperor wanted to control humanity when the entire fucking point of his character was that he wanted to help it grow strong and reach it's potential, then take a backseat and pat himself on the back.
>keeping Chaos artifacts around is harmless if you know what they are
Why am i even arguing.

>>51787942
>lets chaos completely destroy the old world before deciding to intervene
>not mind numbingly autistic

>>51790794
>Got his powers in a shady deal with Chaos or something
he was created by spirits fusing together in the warp. he was manifested.

>>51807544
Carnac please leave.

>>51807883
>This isn't true though. It's been pointed out to you multiple times that this is wrong. Stop repeating this lie.
You keep saying this. Where the fuck are you coming from? The Horus Heresy books had maybe one good example of a civilization that wasn't complete asshats trying to murder all humanity, and even they were so scared shitless by Chaos that they took the first bad thing happening as "Welp, humans must be Fallen, better wipe them all out."

All through the darkness before the crusade, when all communication went off, the aliens didn't just take their ball and go home - They murdered all the humans on their planet because they weren't helpful, and then they blamed them all for everything going wrong ever.

And even if you don't accept that? In the modern Imperium, they've never found an alien race that wasn't malevolent at best. Exceptions usually get put to good use - Jokaero for example - but they are without a doubt the exception.

>>51808114
Nah.

The Emperor was born to humans as a member of a sub-species of mankind called the Perpetuals. He was a powerful psyker but he got his "divine" powers from the deal on Molech.

>>51808083
Sigmar was trapped in the Winds of Heaven, powerless unless Nagash and Teclis broke it.

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>>51787849
Does it still hurt?

>>51793350
>the Elf who would be Lich Queen
>not deserving of insult

Genn was right.

>>51808047
>And where the fuck is your evidence of most aliens being friendly?

1. The fluff on the Age of Strife says that most alien races simply tended to their own safety during this period, the galaxy was exploding around them.

2. We have very few examples of xeno-human relations from the Age of Strife or the Great Crusade. However, it's notable that many of them are positive. The Interex had xeno allies, the Tarellians had mercantile relations with humans until they were virus bombed by the Imperium, the multiple Diasporex races took in human refugees whose worlds had been destroyed during the Age of Strife, Vulkan encountered Eldar that had gone out of their way to save the lives of humans from his homeworld, etc etc etc.

>keeping Chaos artifacts around is harmless if you know what they are
>Why am i even arguing.

But it's totally okay when the Imperium does it amirite? Because they do it all the fucking time and not every daemon weapon or whatever ends up destroying everything in a horrible plot tweest.

It is a fact that the Interex were doing fine, and the Imperium's intervention was required to give Chaos a way to destroy them.

Guys, guys, we all know it's the Old Ones' fault anyway.

If they'd just given the Necrontyr some anti-super-cancer pills, none of this would have happened.

>>51808134
>You keep saying this. Where the fuck are you coming from?

READ THE FUCKING THREAD.

>The Horus Heresy books had maybe one good example of a civilization that wasn't complete asshats trying to murder all humanity

Fucking liiiieess, read the thread.

>They murdered all the humans on their planet because they weren't helpful, and then they blamed them all for everything going wrong ever.

No, you mong, the exact wording is that most aliens looked to their own interests during the Age of Strife. Some took advantage of the Chaos to attack humanity, but it is specified that these are mankind's old enemies or those with grudges to settle.

>And even if you don't accept that? In the modern Imperium, they've never found an alien race that wasn't malevolent at best.

Jesus Christ, more fucking lies. The imperium routinely exterminates primitive races with no space travel. There is fluff where xeno races form an alliance with an Imperial admiral, thinking he's totally chill, to fight Tyranids, and they don't even consider double crossing them... but the admiral comes back and wipes them all out immediately after.

You have such an incredibly skewed view of the fluff.

>>51807665
kek
umad

>>51808220
> The fluff on the Age of Strife says that most alien races simply tended to their own safety during this period, the galaxy was exploding around them
No, it says that as soon as communications between human worlds cut off and technology went to shit many alien races saw an opportunity and did horrible things.
>But it's totally okay when the Imperium does it amirite?
How many star systems did Interex span again? Or right.
>It is a fact that the Interex were doing fine, and the Imperium's intervention was required to give Chaos a way to destroy them.
No, it is a fact that Interex DIRECTLY provided the means to corrupt Horus and start the Heresy. Chaos needed Interex to screw the Emperor, not the other way around, and it's painfully obvious. Or did you really believe your special snowlfake noblebright people were immune to a fucking sword of Nurgle laying in their temple?
Also they used AI, so double heretics.

>>51808252
preach

>>51808283
>READ THE FUCKING THREAD
>read me spewing bullshit for proof of me spewing bullshit

>You have such an incredibly skewed view of the fluff
What is your favorite faction? And don't think for a second to bullshit me about it being Imperium.

>>51808134
>And even if you don't accept that? In the modern Imperium, they've never found an alien race that wasn't malevolent at best.

Slann, Nicassar, Tarellians, Demiurg, the hundreds of races that often serve as mercenaries for the Tau and Rogue Traders, the list goes on...

There's a load of them.

Arguable Eldar are among them, as are Tau. They're not really any more evil than the Imperium.

>>51808362
>No, it says that as soon as communications between human worlds cut off and technology went to shit many alien races saw an opportunity and did horrible things.

You should probably get reading, as this is not the words used.

>How many star systems did Interex span again? Or right.

Irrelevant to how they handle Chaos stuff.

>No, it is a fact that Interex DIRECTLY provided the means to corrupt Horus and start the Heresy.

Funny, I wasn't aware that Erebus was an Interex soldier. That sword was under total control until the Lunar Wolves showed up. The Imperium meddled, messed shit up.
>>51808387
>What is your favorite faction? And don't think for a second to bullshit me about it being Imperium.

Kek, I love this. "You understand the setting, you must be a fucking Chaosfag or Necronfag or something, PRAISE EMPRAH."

Yes, the Imperium is my favourite faction, specifically the Ecclesiarchy. Why? Because I don't need my favourite faction be TOTES IN THE RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING. I'm not such a child that I can't like something as fiction without justifying its 'rightness' to myself and others. There is a line between me and the fiction I consume that you don't have.

I know the Imperium is stupid and inefficient and dumb, and the Emperor did everything wrong. And that's why I fucking like it, because I like dystopian fiction, you complete dumbass.

>>51808480
>You should probably get reading, as this is not the words used.
Please post your sources then. Literally says many predatory species took advantage.
>Irrelevant to how they handle Chaos stuff.
It's relevant to how much of themselves they're endangering. No one gives a shit if someone stashes some Chaos shit on some backward planet, these retards had it on their home planet.
>That sword was under total control until the Lunar Wolves showed up
You mean Nurgle let them THINK it was under control. How are you not grasping this. If Nurgle wanted Interex he would have gotten them easily.
>specifically the Ecclesiarchy
So, literally the one that goes against everything the Emperor stood for. Yet you criticize him. Huh.
>"You understand the setting
But you don't.
>Because I don't need my favourite faction be TOTES IN THE RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING
Neither to i, but then again, 40k is about survival, not ideals.
>I'm not such a child that I can't like something as fiction without justifying its 'rightness' to myself and others. There is a line between me and the fiction I consume that you don't have.
I think you legit have problems. I'm not justifying anything, i'm straight up telling you what happened and why did it happen. You're the one who desperately needs The Emperor to be Space Hitler so you can talk shit from your high horse.
>I know the Imperium is stupid and inefficient and dumb
Which i've never disputed.
>and the Emperor did everything wrong
Which is disproved by every single thing in the setting, but sure, go on.
>And that's why I fucking like it, because I like dystopian fiction, you complete dumbass.
Clearly you don't, since you need to twist it to fit your narrative.

>>51808626
>Please post your sources then. Literally says many predatory species took advantage.

Go read yours. You'll find it says some species withdrew and looked to their own interests while others, like orks, took advantage.

And there's actual examples of aliens like the Diasporex reaching out and helping humanity during this time.

>It's relevant to how much of themselves they're endangering. No one gives a shit if someone stashes some Chaos shit on some backward planet, these retards had it on their home planet.

It still wasn't the thing that destroyed them, the Imperium was.

>You mean Nurgle let them THINK it was under control. How are you not grasping this. If Nurgle wanted Interex he would have gotten them easily.

H E A D C A N O N

What we KNOW, anon, is that it required the intervention of an already-corrupt Space Marine to free the sword.

>So, literally the one that goes against everything the Emperor stood for. Yet you criticize him. Huh.

Again, there's a line between myself and my fiction. The Ecclesiarchy are fun because they're hilariously evil and deluded.

>I think you legit have problems. I'm not justifying anything, i'm straight up telling you what happened and why did it happen.

I think you have legit problems, mate. I'm telling you what happened and what is canon.

>You're the one who desperately needs The Emperor to be Space Hitler so you can talk shit from your high horse.

...He was Space Hitler.

He literally checks every box. Wants to purge people due to genetic reasons. Wants to purge people due to racial reasons. Believes his chosen people need lebensraum and makes a mess of his people in the process of getting it.

>Clearly you don't, since you need to twist it to fit your narrative.

Oh, irony.

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>people still defending the Emperor's view of xenos

Jesus Christ, if we took his approach to aliens to others stuff we'd all have killed each other a long time ago.

>this person with brown hair was chill with me
>but this other person with brown hair wasn't
>I guess I'll just kill all brunettes

He clearly wasn't doing this for rational reasons. It's not logical, it's not efficient when you have tons of other problems, and it's not remotely sane.

>>51808793
>every species fights for their own survival and interests
>setting is as unbiased about this as possible
>i'll use the fact that i'm a passive observer to give them shit without considering their position.

>H E A D C A N O N
Oh, right, sorry, my mistake. CLEARLY the Interex were the only known civilization in the fucking universe to be immune to Chaos.
>I'm telling you what happened and what is canon.
Except you're twisting everything.
>The Emperor is a big meanie and killed the aliens just because he doesn't like them, also he wanted to enslave humanity
Flawless.

>guy literally just wants to save humanity and let it achieve it's potential
>fails because literally everything goes against him
>succeeds in at least giving them a fighting chance
>somehow he's the bad guy

>Again, there's a line between myself and my fiction.
Well, see, if i had a say in anything, we'd be holding hands with Eldar and Tau and any other friendly (read: not out to kill us just because) species while we dance on flowery fields as heretics, tyranids and all other evils burn, since i do not wish genocide or evil upon anyone who's not outright malicious and violent towards me or mine. But as things stand, i can see and understand the Emperor, and humanity. Just like i can understand the Eldar and Tau. But since there really is no true good and everyone is just looking out for themselves, and i'm human, guess who i'm gonna be inclined to? And from human perspective, The Emperor is the best thing that's ever happened to us and we STILL managed to fuck it up. Hooray.

>>51808178
I wonder what kinda arcane dust Gul'dan got when he DE'd Varian?

>>51787773
I don't know anything about fantasy. Would Sigmar die if the emperor glassed the planet from orbit?

>>51808945
Has it ever occurred to you that not everyone is some fedora tipping autist obsessing about objective justice, and are instead just humans rooting for the human savior doing his all to protect and advance humanity?

>>51787773
Humanity

>>51809002
>every species fights for their own survival and interests
>setting is as unbiased about this as possible
>i'll use the fact that i'm a passive observer to give them shit without considering their position.

I'm giving the Emperor shit for being irrational with his expansionism. Wanting to kill all aliens, despite many just fighting for their own survival during the Age of Strife, and others actually helping mankind, is dumb.

You're the one arguing that all aliens were vile evilness that must be purged, which isn't supported by the fluff at all.

>Oh, right, sorry, my mistake. CLEARLY the Interex were the only known civilization in the fucking universe to be immune to Chaos.

Look, if the Imperium can keep a whole fuckton of Chaos artefacts under lock and key, so can the Interex. The fact is, they did so safely until the Imperium delivered a corrupted Marine to them.

>The Emperor is a big meanie and killed the aliens just because he doesn't like them

This is clearly true.

>also he wanted to enslave humanity

I didn't say that. He DID enslave a lot of humans and his Imperium would go on to put most humans in a living hell of forced labor, but he obviously had good eventual intentions for mankind. He just failed at realizing them because his methods were awful.

>But as things stand, i can see and understand the Emperor, and humanity.

Yeah, so can I. And one of the things to understand about the Emperor was that he was a flawed man who made mistakes.

>But since there really is no true good and everyone is just looking out for themselves, and i'm human, guess who i'm gonna be inclined to?

Yes, me too. Which is why it's all the more obvious that the modern Imperium is awful, because for most humans their perspective of it is an unending squalid horrorshow.

>The Emperor is the best thing that's ever happened to us and we STILL managed to fuck it up

He fucked up... because he is us. He represents our greatest virtues and our deepest flaws. Cont...

>>51794140
You.
I like you.

>>51809138
>cont

He is ambitious, inventive, curious, cunning, dynamic. He is also reactive, prone to hubris, xenophobic, and tribalist. He failed because he succumbed to mankind's failings - the very things he denied existed, because he saw himself and anyone remotely like him as perfect. The Imperial Creed is at its core illustrative of this. It just states that humans are perfect and the best, and you shouldn't question this. There's no introspection, no call to improve oneself as an individual or a species, just a certifiably false statement, as mankind is, like everything in the universe, flawed.

The Emperor is a pastiche of us as a species. He has limitless potential and drive, but his inability to grow beyond his worst aspects holds him back. He is, despite being a goofily huge man in ostentatious golden armour, a pretty compelling character simply because he represents us in this way.

There's nothing wrong with rooting for him. But he did fail, and he failed due to his own flaws.

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>>51787773
Sigmar took the best the Warp had and survived. Emps didn't.

>>51809225
>Emprah
>failed

lmao look at this fucking heretic

>>51793754
>Trump not Chaos incarnate

What else do you call a man who takes every stance on an issue other than Tzeentch?

>>51809015
No. Sigmar is a god, and Gods don't need emotions to survive in Fantasy.

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>>51809025
>Rooting for a character who is literally the plot to Paradise Lost; the plot device according to the creator or the setting

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>>51809225
You know, this is A LOT different then the whole ''The Emperor is a complete retard who fucked everything up and humanity would have been better off without him'' rhetoric that started this argument. Yes, i can agree that he was flawed, and that his failure is partly his fault, but he did the best he could. The setting is just too fucking grimdark for a beacon of hope and progress like Emps to stay in it for too long, either he breaks it or it breaks him. And, well...

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>>51809358
>talks shit about Emperor
>xeno knife-ear faggot reaction image
Not ever surprised.

>>51809369
Well, I would argue that he wasn't a beacon of hope and progress. He THOUGHT he was, much in the same way that Hitler thought he was.

In the end he squandered all his potential by becoming just another shortsighted dictator. He misunderstood how to fight Chaos and he enacted this misunderstanding on a grand scale, often despite the advice of cooler heads like Malcador. He let his tribalism and fear of the other get in the way of building an efficient empire, using the crimes of a few aliens to justify killing them all and wasting billions of human lives and ridiculous amounts of time and resources in the process. He created demigods to carry out his will but he failed to understand any of them personally or realize what each one needed, and he lost half of them as a result. He assumed that he could use the very things that empower Chaos to build a bulwark against it, and that he could do it because he's awesome. He even says there's no difference between himself and an old Earth dictator, except that he knows he's right... which is exactly what basically dictator has always said.

>>51809437
You're replying to a new anon.

I still find it amazing that some people on /tg/ don't know how to detect samefags effectively.

>>51809551
What? I replied to the guy i replied to, anything beyond that is inconsequential. It could have been his first post for all i care.

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>>51790794
BURN IN HELL TUMBLER HERETIC!! D:<

>>51809537
His main problem is he grew detached due to being so old so all of his friends and family kept dying and also due to seeing mankind make the same mistakes over and over again. Also, let's be fair, all of Chaos had to unite to bring him down. He was, and still is, the setting's best shot at something better. Especially if he learned what he did wrong.

>>51809660
>He was, and still is, the setting's best shot at something better

Yeah, and that's what's truly sad and most grimdark about him.

He had all the potential, and he squandered it by making the same mistakes millions of other humans had made before him. This stuff is what makes 40K actually compelling as a setting, moreso than the cool designs and the space magic. It has solid themes at its core, the biggest one being that mankind is flawed and even the greatest of us can't escape this.

>>51809698
Sure. I'm not deluded to the fact that Emprah made mistakes and that the Imperium is horrible and flawed, it's the whole ''Emperor just fucked things up and everything would have been better without him'' idea that pissed me off.

>>51809925
>getting mad at people disagreeing over a fictional dictator from a toy franchise

>>51787849
who dis

>>51810070
>getting ''pissed off'' during an internet ''argument'' is literally getting mad irl

>>51790794
Hi Horus

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>>51808178
Oh do not worry about that. we will meet again soon.

>>51810108
A cuck. But that's to be expected from warcraft humans.

>>51812909
>A cuck.
Eternal Warhammer, pls