What is the mechanic you hate most in RPGs?

Cross class.

>>51767630
Levels

Spell "slots"

Abstract wealth.

A resource is interesting due to the finite nature of it.

>>51767630
Roleplaying.

Probably rolling for stats/hp on levelup. I understand the appeal, I really do, but I find it fucking repulsive

Level by level multiclassing was a mistake. At that point, may as well make the game point buy.

Exploding dice with no limiters. Yes, looking at you SW.

Obfuscating and needlessly complicated dice mechanics in general. If I need to spend 10 minutes on anydice to calculate probabilities of a skill roll instead of being able to guesstimate it, or I need to roll like 5+ dice just to punch someone (and then he needs to roll dodge and then I need to roll damage and then he needs to roll soak) you need to sit down and think about what you just done.

>>51767669
Abstract wealth can be finite.

Non-abstract wealth means I know what my character has down to the last copper, which is ridiculous when I don't even know how much I have.

By the same token, bullet/arrow counting in games where bullets/arrows are actually plentiful.

>>51767630
A bunch of separate abilities with arbitrary nonsense x uses/y time period.

>>51767630
Any multiclassing system that is *not* level by level.

Character abilities that scale with class level instead of character level.

>>51767729
*Including "this system has classes, but no multiclassing"
That's the worst of the bunch.

>>51767729
>>51767741

... wouldn't that mean that the optimal strategy in those games would be to dip all the classes with level scaling abilities and then scale like 10 class's abilities instead of only 1?

Is there any game that even does that?

>>51767630
sitting around a table. for real though, class levels.

>>51767658
tfw I run D20s in WoW and levels literally are not even a thing at all. No one has any idea how good it feels to have the entire party never need rebalanced or me having to do some power gap unfun shit with the monsters. I literally just get to move a story and make fights have.more mechanics as time goes on. I guess the down side is less Character specfic rp but I still do all kinds of items and professions.

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I don't want to say classes in general, but a few aspects of them irk me. The first is simple tasks that are nonetheless exclusive to certain classes. As an example, Rogues and traps. Not only are Rogues the only ones able to disarm traps, but they're also the only ones that can SEE them. A Wizard can't see a ward, a Ranger/Druid can't see a snare, a Cleric can't see an unholy godbomb, and so on. Only a Rogue can see and deal with this, no one else even gets a roll. If they do, it doesn't matter how high they roll because it just can't be seen by someone who isn't a Rogue. I can see disarming as a matter of training, but not letting anyone else even know there's a threat is just trying too hard to create different roles.

The other thing is allowing retarded amounts of multiclassing in a poor attempting at alleviating the first issue. I despise watching people try to roleplay how they were totally training in six different career fields at once, and concept of "dipping" for a single ability is too gamist for my tastes. There's not necessarily anything wrong with it, I just don't like it. Please stick to 2 (3 at most) classes and level them somewhat close to evenly.

>>51767729
Why even have level-by-level multiclassing if nothing cares about class level?

>>51767803
Is either of those ever an issue outside of D&D?

OP here. So, based on the posts, a game without levels or classes whatsoever, with reasonable amount of dice rolling, with logical wealth and logical mechanics, like mentioned in post about traps, would be better than the same game with those?

>>51767842
Outside of ONE edition of D&D.

Okay, well, technically Thieves had their % skills, but they were supposed to give them almost supernatural abilities, not restrict what others can do.

>>51767744
Presumably each class would have a comparable number of abilities under such a system.

Switching classes would simply determine which abilities you got, and better abilities would require a higher character level, a higher number of class levels before you get them, or both.

It's more or less how everything works in 5e, except for spellcasting.

>>51767688
>Exploding dice with no limiters. Yes, looking at you SW.
This.

>>51767803
Depends on the edition.

In PF, for instance, the only thing rogues get with regards to trap finding is abilities that make them better at them, and abilities to allow them to disarm some magic traps with unusually high DC.

And there are other classes (including rangers) that can get the feature.

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>>51767630
Hard to pick one I hate MOST, but there are a few candidates.

>Multiclassing/Crossclassing
This is only ever abused by min-maxers, it's NEVER used to make interesting characters. No, shut up, no matter how much you say you're doing it for "story", you're not.

>Spell Slots/Vancian Casting
"Hurr durr I'm too exhausted to cast any more level 1 spells, but I can still cast a level 3 spell. Hurr durr all spells are just some autistic memory trick where you prepare the spell 99% at the start of the day and then complete it during combat.

>HP Bloat
Something about the game is lost when at high level you end up having like 120+ health and getting stabbed through the gut with a longsword only does 1d8 damage.

Yeah... judging by the pic I posted with this, HP Bloat is probably my most hated.

>>51767850
Nothing really scales in 5e. At best you get synergestic scaling; i.e. you get two attacks so now your action surge is twice as good when used with an attack action.

>>51767847
Classes and levels can work, they just need to be done to put emphasis on the strengths of those systems. Most mechanics are just tools, they can be used well. Being overcomplicated for complexity's sake or illogical is just bad design though.

>>51767803
Classes are nothing but thematically grouped abilities.

There's nothing to say that a character with 6 classes has switched to several different professions. They could be a single profession, they simply have a grab bag of abilities relevant to whatever they do, just like any single classes character.

If your monk is built using some weird combination of ranger/fighter/rogue/paladin, and it makes sense for the concept and doesn't suck mechanically, great.

If you fighter 1/cleric x, and play a heavy armored cleric with more focus on arms and armor, that makes perfect sense, go for it.

>>51767869
HP are Hit Points, not Meat Points.

>>51767811
>2 potential reasons:
1. They're convenient prearranged character paths, should you choose to focus on a single class, simplifying chargen.
2. They're tech-trees. The lower levels are a gate to the abilities you can pick up at higher levels.

I like #1. #2, depends on the implementation.

>>51767869
HP bloat is a consequence of starting at goblins and finishing with dragons.

>>51767901
The difference doesn't matter when they both turn you into a videogame character.

how skull-crushingly boring combat is in 5e, and pen and papers in general

>>51767919
>I don't understand the difference, so it doesn't matter.

A longsword through the gut is either a Coup de Grâce or the last hit that reduces you to 0 or less HP, not any regular 1d8 damage swing.

>>51767901
Oh fuck. Here's one.

>>51767630
>"Hit points are an abstract thing representing both meat points and exhaustion and luck" in fluff justifications, yet the mechanics treat them exclusively as meat points in every goddamn way.

If you want stamina and HP and luck, make them separate goddamn pools.

If the mechanics treat them as meat points, I'm going to use them as meat points.

"This is a world where life experience eventually means you can swim through lava with minimal harm if you're a bad enough dude, and seasoned warriors can easily survive several gunshots to the face at point blank, especially if the guy shooting is less experienced."

I will play in such a bizarre superhero world before I try to pretend your shitty "abstract" HP system does what you say it does, when in fact all the game mechanics suggest otherwise.

>>51767869
>Yeah... judging by the pic I posted with this, HP Bloat is probably my most hated.
Hah. I love exactly that. Meat points are the greatest. Following the game mechanics to their logical conclusion in general is awesome.

>>51767958
D&D is a superhero world when you get into those higher levels.

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>>51767953
>"Yeah, I'm level 20, so my body is made of kevlar and depleted uranium now. An 8 damage slash that could kill or put a regular person in critical condition is just a scratch to me."

So basically chunky salsa rule applies when you want it to apply but still makes no goddamn sense the rest of the time?

>>51767842
>>51767861
The Rogue and trap thing was one of the more extreme examples from 3.5 in particular, but I'm also speaking generally about not being able to do things unless it's part of your class, which stayed a thing in later editions but isn't quite as pronounced. Still irks me, but not to the degree of a more autistic rant.

Classes would ideally be THE BEST at [thing] rather than the only one even capable of [thing].

>>51767970
Damage is relative. a 10 damage hit to a character with 50 Hp would be the same as a 1 damage hit to a character with 5.

>>51767630

Shadowrun: PCs are able to buy off Notoriety, which is a stat that tracks how infamous the PCs have become as a result of their actions in the game. They buy it off by sacrificing points from their Street Cred stat.

It's basically a huge handwaving mechanic to allow players to escape the consequences of their actions. I don't like that in the first place, and to make things worse the mechanics overly abstracted in a way that doesn't relate to the game world very well.

>>51767958
>If the mechanics treat them as meat points, I'm going to use them as meat points.

And yet when the Warlord shouts the supposed meat points back,autists flip their shit.

>>51767964
This.

>>51767630
What a weird ring. It seems to have only one side even though it has two. One of those topical illusions.

>>51767989
Doesn't that mean that they hide out for a while until things cool down around them? Loses them notriety when they didn't do shit for a while, but also makes them lose street cred, cause pussy bitch ran away like a fucking pansy ass coward.

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>>51767987
Relative WHY? Because the higher level character has a higher amount of hitpoints, despite taking an attack of the same force and magnitude as the guy with lower hitpoints? Is the guy with higher hitpoints literally made out of something besides flesh and blood?

Hitpoint logic is retarded, and lets not even get into what healing represents if HP is something besides Meat Points.

>>51767970
"Yeah, I'm level 20, so I have become the stuff of which legends are made. An 8 damage slash that could kill or put a regular person in critical condition takes no more effort than a tiny step or a flick of my finger to avert."

FTFY

>>51767976
Again, where is that ever an issue outside of D&D?

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>>51768011
Unless you're playing a anime game, you're not reflecting a blade with a flick of your finger as any kind of mortal human being.

Then again I suppose thats more the realm of stat-bloat in general, rather than just HP-bloat.

>>51768009
>despite taking an attack of the same force and magnitude as the guy with lower hitpoints?

Pretty huge assumption to make.

>Is the guy with higher hitpoints literally made out of something besides flesh and blood?

Is one explanation. Could be made out of BETTER flesh and blood. Godly stuff. Could be also just incredibly skilled and lucky and turn blows that a normal guy would run into into grazing hits.

>Hitpoint logic is retarded

Only when you make it retarded. You bitch that on one hand HP are meat points and how stupid that is, but also refuse to accept any other explanation, no matter how well supported it is in the game world.explanation.

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>>51768011
>Again, where is that ever an issue outside of D&D?

I never said it was. This thread is about gripes with mechanics, mine just happened to be D&D specific. And also not bad enough for me to stop enjoying D&D.

>>51768009
Because not all attacks are equal in that fashion. Higher level characters are more than just regular mortals though. If you want regular joes going at it, don't play D&D, where a man can wrestle an elephant.

>>51768030
Level 20 is so far beyond "mortal human being" that I'm not sure what your point is.

>>51768030
>Unless you're playing a anime game, you're not reflecting a blade with a flick of your finger as any kind of mortal human being.

Level 20 characters can routinely make the universe their bitch 1/day. Deflecting a hit that would injure a lesser man should be well within their capabilities.

>>51768008

Notoriety isn't about how aware people or organizations are of the PCs, there are other stats for that. Notoriety is for the PC's negative reputation. It's about having a reputation for trying to cheat fixers and Johnsons, or for killing innocent bystanders, or for failing to fufill missions. I think the current rules for decreasing Notoriety make all that go away too easily. I prefer to have players have to deal with a negative reputation when it comes up in the narrative, by RP and social skills for example.

>>51767958
Or you know, you could assume that magical healing does all the things resting to heal does. Eases pain, removes fatigue, soothes strained muscles, as well as healing big fucking gashes.

A guy who's low on hitpoints will be tired, sore from the twists and strains of vigorous life or death combat, as well as being a cut the fuck up.

>>51768041
>>51768043

A level 20 fighter is still mostly a normal human (elf, dwarf, whatever). They can't really do anything special other than fall off a tall cliff and live.

>>51768051
No, thats what a level 20 Fighter SHOULD be, but in DnD and it's derivatives, a level 20 fighter is basically a DC Comics superhero.

Yes, it's retarded.

>>51768051
That has to do with the fighter class being the epitome of shit class design. It is not an issue with HP.

>>51768046
I understand your issue and even agree with it on some level. I just think that that exchange can be made to make sense.

>>51768051
And kill like 200 orcs, when a lvl1 fighter can kill maybe one.

>>51768059
Bullshit. if you don't like superheroics, just play low level.

Or I guess also de-power the other classes, that works too, but is kinda silly when you can just play low level.

>>51768051
A regular mortal wouldn't be able to keep up with anything he'd face at those levels.

>>51768009
I force my players to roll heal skill checks to bandage wounds and stop bleeding before I allow them to drink potions for HP.... it's always seemed really fucking dumb that they can drink a liquid that will close a sword slash

>>51768068
And a fighter can't keep up with anything he'll face at those levels.

>>51768083
Depends on edition...

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>>51768067
>Depower the other classes because FIGHTERS are overpowered.

Holy shit, if this doesn't make it blatantly obvious you've never played DnD in your life, I don't what possibly could.

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>>51768046
Go back to the proper editions of the game when that and other bullshit like pieces of string that require wifi to work properly aren't a thing.

>>51768083
So you'd make it so he has no HP scaling as well?

>>51767993
If I'm playing in a world with escalating meat points and there's a Warlord class that can restore them by shouting (not a thing in Pathfinder or 5e), that's fine, the Warlord has a magical or mutant ability to heal people by shouting.

It's D&D. We left any potential for playing realistic characters behind around level 4.

>>51768086
>FIGHTERS are overpowered.

Who the fuck said that?

I suggested depowering the other classses to be on level with a fighter who, I quote
>A level 20 fighter is still mostly a normal human (elf, dwarf, whatever). They can't really do anything special other than fall off a tall cliff and live.
>No, thats what a level 20 Fighter SHOULD be

If you want a level 20 fighter to be mostly mundane, and make sense with being in the same party as the wizard/cleric/paladin/druid/whatever, those guys should also be powered down

I hope all of you who complain about typical DnD problems don't play DnD

>>51768099
>NO HP IS MEAT POINTS!
>I DON'T CARE THAT THE GAME CONTRADICTS ME MULTIPLE TIMES, THEY CAN ONLY BE MEAT POINTS

>>51768100
>If you want a level 20 fighter to be mostly mundane
You should probably not play heroic fantasy D&D.

Any mechanic that randomises the amount of XP players get is inherently bad.

The same goes for any mechanic that make one player get more than other.

>>51768085
I am pretty sure we're talking about 3.PF.

>>51768092
No, I was just calling attention to lackluster argumentation.

>>51768113
I get the second but not the first.

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>>51768086
>Enchanter
>Fire Swords
>Touching people for buffs

Dropped the ball.

>>51768112
Or keep it to low levels.

That was my other suggestion.

>>51768115
>I am pretty sure we're talking about 3.PF.

It could be 5e. Fighters in 5e are at least kickass demigods in battle but STILL can't do anything a demigod would do outside of battle.

Bounded accuracy for skills was a mistake.

>>51768118
>>Touching people for buffs
Where'd you get that idea
>Make bitches think you the shit
Is obviously mind control shit

>>51768115
Whether or not the fighter actually stands up at those levels doesn't mean he wouldn't have to be superhuman to do it.

>>51768123
Bonded accuracy on the scale modern D&D works at was a mistake. D&D really needs more than 20 levels if it wants to represent the kind of power curve it has.

>>51768118
Are you implying enchanters are flaming homo lala men?

>>51767630
Mind control, charm person, hypnotism etc. It's license for the GM to basically make a player sit in the corner for a while and it's almost always used in a bullshit manner. I can't fucking think of a particularly good way it's ever been used.

>>51768048
And he got that way from hitting the ground at terminal velocity, or swimming through a VAT of sulphuric acid, or being tossed face first into a pool of lava.

Unless they make the HP consistently rational, I'm simply not going to pretend they're a realistic rational thing.

And I'm okay with D&D being gonzo capeshit. I've got GURPS for when I want gritty realism.

>>51768117
I'm guessing randomized xp leads to getting under-rewarded, especially if the variance is high.

>>51768123
Bounded Accuracy was a mistake. Fullstop.

Sort of shit you want to use in faggy art games where no one complains about how shitty the game balance is because admitting you did combat would lose you all your tragic hip points.

>>51767669
No, non-abstract wealth turns into accounting and, if the world is detailed enough, potentially even spreadsheets. If I wanna do that shit I have actual taxes I could be working on, thank you.

I let my players buy anything their characters should reasonably be able to afford and anything beyond that can be quested for or made some other kind of arrangements for. For instance, mid-level PCs are assumed to be able to buy mid-level armor and weapons, but that isn't license to get the best of everything.

>>51768142
Not really, they just bound it too low in relation to what a level 20 character should be capable of. It works perfectly well in games where the power levels don't rise to such a ludicrous degree over the course of the game.

>>51767670
Is it possible roleplaying games aren't for you?

>>51767869
>No, shut up, no matter how much you say you're doing it for "story", you're not.
Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

>>51768111
>The game says they're not meat points.
>The game mechanics have weird disconnects that only make any sense if they are meat points.
Either I rewrite the rules so you can't survive being covered in magma and whatnot, or I treat them as meat points.

Meat points is easier, and perfectly fitting in a capeshit game about characters who can punch dragons to death and take down armies like they're using automatic rifles to kill rats.

>>51768117
It takes control of player strength out of the gms hands, mostly.

Plus it sucks if the players make concentrated effort to do something interesting or co and the game itself atbitrarily decides not to reward them for it.

>>51768130
The entire negative section is about "touchin' up on people" presumably for the purpose of giving them fire swords. It's also apparently mandatory. Really what I'm taking issue with here is the fire swords.

Why the fuck did D&D have to give the mind control school the name name everyone else uses for the "giving shit magic powers" school.

>>51768178
But all the complaining in this thread has been about weird disconnects in the game mechanics that are only disconnects if you treat HP as meat points.

>>51768178
>Either I rewrite the rules so you can't survive being covered in magma and whatnot, or I treat them as meat points.
Oh come on, most games have a "chunky salsa rule" or equivalent thereof nowadays.

And many that don't explicitly expect the GM to describe the action in a way that makes sense. Saying "You fall into lava. Oh, look, you're fine." is obviously nonsensical and only an incredibly dense GM or a troll on a mongolian basket-weaving forum would interpret the results of an exchange in such a fashion. Coming up with some reason why the results would happen is the GM's fucking job.

>You managed to avoid the worst of the lava, but a splash of it painfully burns into your flesh. That's gonna hurt - but it could be worse!

>>51768138
That's where the high fantasy and limits of rules kick in.

High level characters are a bit mad, but a level 10 Fighter still dies in the fall, two rounds in the acid, or one round in the lava.

Even the might level 20 Fighter is going to be between fucked up and mighty fucked up by any of those hazards and that's assuming you have acid/lava damage end entirely as soon as the immersion ends.

>>51768203
The have been a couple such complaints, but most of the complaints are the opposite.

It says they're not meat points, but the game treats them as meat points in most ways.

>>51768209
This. It's not like any character who can take the avg. 70 damage per round from taking a dip in lava isn't obviously ate up with magical gear too.

>>51768247
>the game treats them as meat points in most way
Concrete examples?

>>51768148
How ludicrously can the power levels rise when, as they tell it, non-Tucker kobolds can still fuck up a party of high level adventurers?

>>51768247
>It says they're not meat points, but the game treats them as meat points in most ways.

No. You treat them as meat points. The game never says a fighter losing 10 HP loses 10 ounces of blood or whatever. You never get your limbs lopped off when you take damage. Fuck, having a bleeding wound itself is a separate effect from losing HP.

It's not meat points. They are almost never treated as meat points. Things that take away from your meat are almost always CON damage.

>>51768268
In 5e? Tough fucking luck doing that. You'd need a really huge amount of them, in favorable conditions for it to work. I mean at some point you get so many that they can statistically instagib a target/turn, but until you reach about half way to that point I'm betting on the party.

>>51768241
Sure. At lower levels you can get away with "HP is an abstraction" easier.

We routinely play higher levels though, often 10 is "starting level".

>>51768267
>>51768138, you need magical healing to refill your HP in most editions, otherwise it could take weeks, which is not so much a thing of you're just a little tired.

I'm fine with it not being realistic, most of the rest of tje later levels are capeshit anyways. I'm just not going to pretend it's realistic if the mechanics don't back that up.

>>51768298
>you need magical healing to refill your HP in most editions, otherwise it could take weeks, which is not so much a thing of you're just a little tired.

In almost all editions the HP you regain by resting raises with your HD. In 3.5, you regain 1 or 2 HP/level when resting, for example. It's almost as if you got a % of your HP back because the wounds damage you take are relative to your HP you lost.

>>51768298
And when I say I'm fine with it being capeshit, to clarify, that's why I'm playing it.

If I want a more realistic power level, I have a dozen other games that do it better.

>>51768298
>10 is starting level
w h y

>>51768351
Because 12-16 is the sweet spot in terms of capabilities (not in terms of tier disparity - tier restrictions are a thing).

And because a campaign typically only lasts 6-8 months. One that lasts longer than that is a rare thing.

May as well make sure the bulk of the campaign is in the level range you're looking to play.

Sometimes we start at 8, and in a "low level" campaign we might start at 6.

>>51767702
>bullet/arrow counting in games where bullets/arrows are actually plentiful.
The only thing I could accept this working for is slings, but even then It'd be a movement action to gather them from your surroundings.

>>51768051

Well, in 3.5

A level 20 fighter in 4e is just short of being a demi-god (Literally next level) and capable of slaughtering dozens of lesser foes without the slightest trouble and continuing to fight under the most grievous wounds (They get regeneration that can only take them to half HP max) due to determination.

>>51768382
Sling bullets aren't rocks. They're deliberately moulded spherical lead balls.

>>51768381
What RPG are we talking exactly? If its D&D and going to be a campaign lasting 6-8 months then I would rather play starting at level 3. If its something shorter, then sure lets start higher, but if its going to be a long time then I would like to start lower rather than higher

>>51768399
Maybe they only have a session every few weeks. Or they enjoy the high powered action. Or they prefer to start in Paragon. Don't judge.

>>51768298

>you need magical healing to refill your HP in most editions, otherwise it could take weeks, which is not so much a thing of you're just a little tired.

Which is why 4e did it best. Where yeah, you could get back to full HP with a good night rest because it mostly is being tired and fatigued and losing morale (Hence why the barbarian's intimidating shout does HP damage and the warlord heals them)

Cursed items of the form "Appearing to be a beneficial item, it is in fact a harmful item that magically stops you from removing it until the GM allows you to find whatever inevitably obscure or highly specific means to remove it, at which point you discard the cursed item and never think of it again."

Fucking boring. It turns games into "Always have shit identified first." It offers no actual choice, no decision to make, it's just an obstacle to remove and nothing more.

Can we bring back cursed items that offer actually tempting abilities at a seemingly-minor price? Or items that require a moral compromise? Or items that have a legitimate and serious risk, but an almost-but-not-quite equally legitimate and serious upside to using them? Or sentient items that are genuinely interactive and have a mind of their own, which may be stubborn but are not 100% intractable and therefore potentially compromising in the right circumstance?

While we're on the former subject of shit with an overly exclusive means of overcoming it, "The door is cursed and can only be opened by solving the ancient riddle of the dickass GM, which you will either immediately know the answer to or never get the answer until the GM caves and tells you. Oh, and the door cannot be picked, the walls, ceiling, and floor of the room beyond are all completely immune to intrusion, and the room magically prevents any astral projection or teleportation or anything else, and anyone else who would know the answer is conveniently absent or suddenly died without telling anyone."

>>51768418
5e also did this.

And other editions did >>51768341
So basically, at worst you are looking at something like a week of downtime if you have really high CON (which makes some sense, high CON means you can take more wounds without getting killed, so it needs more time to rest).

>>51768087

I hate grogtards even more than I hate the Notoriety rules.

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>>51767869
>Multiclassing/Crossclassing
>This is only ever abused by min-maxers, it's NEVER used to make interesting characters. No, shut up, no matter how much you say you're doing it for "story", you're not.
Someone hurt you didn't they?

>>51768399
Pathfinder 6-8 months for a campaign. Typically looking to end it around 16 or 17, and avoid playing anything lower than 5.

With the group that gets together monthly for 12h campaign sessions, leveling once a session is typical. Start at 10ish and that works out.

When we played weekly, we leveled slower, but it typically still worked out to about a bit more than a level a month.

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>>51768284
By no means expert on 5e, that's an example given in the PHB.

>>51768298
>We routinely play higher levels though, often 10 is "starting level".
I find the reverse to be true. Lower level characters move from healthy to mortal peril very quickly, so I almost always describe damage as injury at that point.

Level 10 would be a nice tipping point where I'd be shifting more damage away from bleeding wounds to bruising, pain, and strain on their body.

A level 20 character is to some degree tanking through blows, shrugging them off like an old overcoat. 4-6 hp knocks will wear them down, but even as they feel the hits. Our icon fighter could walk out of knife fight against an entire pub. He'd be tired, aching and covered in shallow cuts and scratches, but relatively okay, no serious injury. He's just to skilled and too well equipped. Shit if the pub wasn't crowded with knife fighters, he might be unharmed.

I do this same dance with Armor Class and "hit" vs "miss".
>Attack under 10, clean miss. "That was so far off, you're not sure it wasn't a poor feint"
>Attack under Touch AC, dodged. "The blade sweeps in but you deftly avoid it, leap over it, sidestep it"
>Attack over Touch, under Shield. "Clang! The orc's axe rebounds off your buckler as you circle each other."
>Attack over Touch, Shield, Under Armor. "The sword tip arcs around catching you, but it only scrapes uselessly across the chainmail rings"

I'd suggest everyone work that sort of thing into their GM style, but I've seen enough gamers to know how hard that basic level of on-the-fly math is for many to accomplish.

>>51768415
IM JUDGING

>once every few weeks
Now thats just depressing

>>51768419
I agree with the cursed items that do have some kind of benefit. IIRC theres a ring of clumsiness in 3.5 D&D that gives you -2 to dexterity, but slow fall while wearing it. And a mace that if you soak in blood for a couple hours it counts as +3, though I think you have to be evil for that one. Cursed items that are useful in some situations but a pain in most are really fun to me

>>51768454
>By no means expert on 5e, that's an example given in the PHB.

I must have missed that, but level 20 party can definitely destroy a few hundred kobolds, especially since it's very likely that on this level the fight will be happening on the party's terms, instead of the other way around.

>>51768460
>>51768415
People live in different cities. We get together once a month, from Friday at like 6pm to Sunday at 11ish. 4 simultaneous ongoing campaigns, GM shifts, a game or two of commander. Like 30h of gaming gets done.

Pretty good time except when a scheduling conflict means we have to miss a month, sometimes even 2 months, between getting together.

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>>51768445
Shadowrun died in 1995. The material written before then lasted briefly before the decision was made to abandon the old game, quickly followed by the decision to close the studio.

Shadowrun 5e is fanfic edition, no getting around it. Weisman wouldn't touch that shit with a ten foot pole. He headed right back to the classics for the new vidyas.

>>51768391
But rocks can be used as a sling bullet at a -1. Good luck finding improvised ammo for your bow.

>>51768509
Not as good as university when we averaged like 25+h a week, but shit happens when you get older.

>>51768517
Fair.

>>51768516
What's so good about old Shadowrun? I've only played SR4 and SR5

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>>51768447
Okay then Without cross-classing how am I supposed to make a pirate who uses black magic to bend the wind and seas to his favor?

>>51768493
I'm pretty sure it's a throwaway line. Of course, I can't find it now to quote. But it was something to that effect.

>>51768517
I meant counting them one by one. Having, say, X quivers with Y charges, and then you lose charges when you roll a crit fail or something. Just please don't count arrow/bullet 1 by 1 unless it's a survival setting.

>>51768540
Make a wizard with a pirate theme. Familiar is a parrot. Sword is for the show.

Also, if feats exist, multiclass feats.

>>51768540
Not that guy, but:
Druid or nature cleric? Take martial weapons if desired.

>>51768111
The DnD rulebook is kind of like a parent who tells her children that violence is never the answer, but still beats them several times a day.

>>51768540
Dude.

>>51768569
This guy has it. Druids start with Scimitar proficiency - that's your cutlass right there, and the wind and water powers are already part of the package. You can get a parrot as an animal companion, I'm sure.

>>51768566
If you're using a bow and arrow you're fighting something, which is presumable fighting back. That is a survival setting.
Are you assuming you can carry infinite arrows? Unless you have a magic quiver that does just that, you're gonna run out.

>>51768566
>Sword is for the show.
So not a pirate
>>51768569
>>51768655
Druid gives him everything to look the part, but he's not gonna last long if he's the worst swordfighter on his crew.

>>51768681
>If you're using a bow and arrow you're fighting something, which is presumable fighting back. That is a survival setting.

Not really. You could be specops who is carrying enough ammo that running out is not a legitimate concern in 90% of the situations.

It's also something that I just don't want to fucking deal with, because I've never ever ran out of arrows in D&D before, so counting them down 1 by 1 is a fucking hassle.

>>51768703
>So not a pirate
Pirate doesn't mean "guy who fights good with sword", but there are plenty of clerics that will allow you to do that too.

>>51768703
>So not a pirate
Could be a bladesinger if you insist, but I don't think pirates were good swordsmen in general. Bandits seldom need to be.

>>51768745
No, it means "thieving high-seas Swashbuckler".

>>51768703
What the fuck kind of multiclass is gonna give you full BAB, an animal companion/familiar, and weather controlling magic on a scale that might affect a ship?

>>51768753
Well a PC's not gonna be one of the faceless deck-hands, he's gonna be the captain, and a lot of famous pirate captains were great swordfighter, hence the association.

>>51768770
Swashbucklers use swords. They aren't necessarily the best swordsmen while also having other fantastic abilities. you want large scale weather control magic, too.

>>51768778
What multiclass is going to give you these things better than druid or cleric?

>>51768778
Swashbuckler/Wizard.

>>51768810
I said *better*.

At half and half, that's 3/4 BAB. Same as druid.

You're getting half casting. That's half as good as codzilla.

You're also not getting the powerful nature controlling magic, just low level wizard spells.

And your pet will be worthless at half level.

I could maybe see fighter 1 cleric x if you wanted the gear and the extra feat in exchange for delayed casting.

But your multiclass is worse than my single class in most ways at filling the role you suggested, and better in none.

And that's not even going into how swashbuckler is a shitty class.

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>>51768536
Old Shadowrun is where all the original ideas lived. Even if you play the modern editions, the old source books are amazing. Check out Aztlan, either of the Tir books, the old Neo-Anarchist's guides.

1st, 2nd and 3rd were all broadly compatible with each other, with third adding some new material, but largely beginning the mass re-print/rehash cycle. Without Nigel Findley, or Tom Dowd there just isn't enough of what made Shadowrun left in the new editions.

Finally getting to learn about Amazonia, YAY!

It's fanfic written a generation later by no one involved in the creation of Amazonia, and literally illustrated from Deviantart, BOO!

Don't even get me started on the slow shrinking of trolls, or when Elves suddenly became omnivores.

>>51768778
>What the fuck kind of multiclass is gonna give you full BAB

>having partial BAB

Maybe stop playing shit editions.

>>51768863
Huh.

I've referred to some old books for fluff when coming up with backstories.

Your complaints seem to be mainly about fluff changes, yeah?

I liked the improved tech, but I want attached to old style decks, and enjoy bringing your hacker with you.

>>51768869
There's no swashbuckler class in 5e last time I checked, but even if I'm misremembering something, half level wizard still lacks any real weather control.

>>51767630
Classes, levels, and vancian magic are definetly the three big ones for me.

>>51768852
Swashbuckler is the best base class for being a pirate, even if it's not the best for combat.
It's weird, almost like I'm using multiclassing to be closer to how I imagined my character, while you're sticking to a single class because it could beat mine in a fight.
Almost like the opposite of min-maxing.

>>51767659
I get what you mean, they feel a bit 'gamey' but there useful as they insure that magic classes aren't overpowered.

>>51767630
Rare drops without subroutines in place to give you the item in a less frustrating method later on.

Elemental weaknesses that give no indication it's a weakness when you happen to hit it.

>>51768770
When was the last time you saw a pirate with a buckler? I bet you don't even know what swashing is.

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>>51768875
It's a mix of things. Wireless mechanics were a good concept they completely fucked up by trying to force it badly. WiFi monofilament whips. Just fuck everyone who thought that was okay.

They're not working from old notes. They're fanfic writers filling in the holes left in the world by the guys who actually created it, but who are no longer alive/involved.

I didn't feel like the tech was improved. It's the same gear from 1990 onward, but with added "Wireless".

>>51768908
I'm not the one who said multiclassing was minmaxing.

And you said your complaint about did and cleric was they weren't good enough at combat. Your wizard swashbuckler isn't any better.

I'm just pointing out your swashbuckler wizard doesn't meet your stated goals, whereas druid or cleric can with a simple fluff change.

And cavalier and paladin both make for a better captain than swashbuckler, IIRC. More leadership focused stuff (auras and challenges and teamwork feats), if you're going for captain flavor and sacrificing the weather control for simpler magic.

If you just want a swashbuckler with magic? Synthesist summoner, magus, druid, cleric, warpriest, hunter, Inquisitor. They will all fill the role as well or better than a swashbuckler wizard.

Some of them even have swashbuckleresque archetypes.

But you said you wanted weather control. You're not getting that without high level magic. You're not getting high level magic with swashwizard.

>>51768935
Swash:
verb
"To swagger flamboyantly or wield a sword."

>>51768976
The whole point of this was that Crossclassing isn't necessary used for minmaxing, sometimes it's just the best way to create the character you want.
I want a talented swashbuckler (Not the class, just the noun) Who also could cast gust of wind from a spell book. Yes you could minmax a character better at doing his job, but I'm not trying to compete with anyone, I'm trying to play a character.

>>51768976
Huntmaster cavalier would give you the bird, too.

I mean, I wouldn't stop you from going swashbuckler wizard, but I would point out your concept could be filled better and with a more effective character if you didn't go swashwizard.

Cavalier/fighter dip(if there's something you really want from them) / cleric/druid would be a better fighter, could have an animal that keeps up, and would eventually get to the weather controlling magic.

Swashwizard will be a crappier swordsman, have an animal that is kindof shit, and maxes out spells before ever reaching control weather.

>>51768921
>they insure that magic classes aren't overpowered

ho
ho
ho

"""""Armor Class"""""

Why does some chump in padded armor with high dexterity survive more than a man wearing 7 inches of steel on all sides of his body, and he has a shield.

>>51768863
>2.8m
>120kg

That's one scrawny-ass race of giant DYELs.

>>51769062
>Gust of wind.
Oh.

Yeah. I took control weather to mean control weather. As such was quite flummoxed when your proposed character couldn't even cast the spell.

If that's all you want my suggestion would be to go magus. it meets all your criteria better than the multiclass, out of the box.

No need to maxmin your character to nothingness.

>>51769062
I do agree, however, that you can multiclass without minmaxing. I'd go as far as to say (in pf particularly) multiclassing almost always makes you weaker than picking the right base class for your concept and using archetypes to customize it.

>>51769094

Agreed, AC should purely represent armor strength, target dexterity should affect hit rolls. I don't know why it's not done already.

>>51768655
The thing is that druids also have a lot of baggage for the concept. You get the cool stuff like scimitar (close enough to a cutlass) and weather control, but you've also got the power to turn into a bear. And you're deriving your magic from a "higher power" of nature, it's not exactly the black-magic-scallywag.

3.x and I have to do it in one core class, no Multiclassing or Prestige class? I'd probably go Hexblade and use feats or items to access Gust of Wind/Control Weather. Can't be assed to engage in the merry sourcebook hunt for what character options would allow the Hexblade to take a couple off-brand spells like that but I'm moderately sure they exist. They're sword-fighting non-divine wielders of black magic, which seems more "in theme" than the nature-worshiper. They even get a familiar.

Either that, or sorcerer, martial weapon proficency, and splurge on Tenser's Transformation later to fight 'good'.

A multiclass execution (Probably what, fighter/sorcerer? Wizard with a dip to Swashbuckler? Go for one of the many pirate prestige classes?) would be the most fitting, though... and generally weaker than a pure druid or sorcerer. Characters starting at a weaker baseline could get a good deal of power out of multiclassing, but the upper end would usually lose it unless done extremely carefully (So, not transparently for theme)

>>51767630
Skill checks for the most basic shit.
>party camps near a small lake
>decide to go swimming to relax
>lol, make a skill check to not drown
Skill checks are meant for determining whether your character can accomplish an exceptional task, it would make more sense to call for a check if a character was trying to swim through rapids without being crushed on a rock than if they were trying to leisurely backpaddle across a lake during their free time.

>>51770029
>you've also got the power to turn into a bear
Which you can choose to ignore.
>you're deriving your magic from a "higher power" of nature
Which can be refluffed.

>>51767630
Rolling for damage, and specially weapon damages like "1d8" or "2d6". How much damage you do should always be determined by your attack roll, the better you stab the more you damage. An attack roll of 20 (or 10 in d10, or 1 in percentages) should never be negated by a shitty damage roll.

>>51767987
>>51768009
Has a point.
Sure a character with 50 HP would treat 10 damage similar to how a character with 5 HP treats 1, but why does a longsword always do 1d8+1 few more?
Why can that 50HP character survive a fall the 5HP character would certainly die from when no magic is involved?
If HP is a mix of luck, skill, and meat points then why does a longsword always do 1d8 damage instead of scaling like HP?

>>51767847
Yes. Except for the part where you called D&D mechanics "Logical"

>>51768298
>We routinely play higher levels though, often 10 is "starting level".
Jesus fucking christ why are you even playing D&D.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9vECzikqpY
Morons like you are why D&D is shit. They tried to appease 2 totally difference groups with the same system.

>>51767658
Close to my mark.

Mine is Level Disparity, or basically the power gap between levels being too large to overcome.

OSR: "Oh, you hit level 20 somehow? Well, okay, 12 Orcs attacking you in a surprise round MIGHT not kill you if you're wearing your best armor."

5e: "Oh, you hit level 4? It's going to take 30 CR 1/4th guards to kill you with 50-50 reliability."

My other hated mechanic is the skill list. "Roll to see if you can perform this task you've trained all your life to do. Oh, you rolled a little low. Okay, frank, who has never had a single day of training and said "huh" when asked what the skill was, go ahead and try. Oh, cool, you rolled a little higher than you would have. You did it"

Just fucking perform the skill.

>>51768961
"It's not the original guys and thus not legit" is a backwards ckmplaint to have. If the stuff is shit (which it is), it's crap regardless who wrote it.

>>51770146
In things like D&D that means you're going to be doing high damage almost all the time since high rolls are required to hit. So it becomes nearly impossible for a hit to do minimal damage.

>>51770233
Do powerful characters in media get neartly cut in half every time a dude swings a sword at them? No? Then hit points are abstract. Stop telling me that a random peasant can keep doing daily chores while a dagger in his stomach because it only did 2 damage.

>>51767847
Not to be that guy, but that sounds like GURPS

>>51770068
Those are poor calls by the GM, not inherently poor rules. Most games make it clear that you only need to roll when it matters.

>>51768886
>There's no swashbuckler class in 5e last time I checked,

Do you want to have sswashbuckler on your sheet or actually you know, just have the ability to play as one?

>>51770619
>swashbuckler class in 5e
Sword Coast Adventurers Guide has it, I'm playing one now and it's pretty alright.

>>51770578
>Do powerful characters in media get neartly cut in half every time a dude swings a sword at them?
Powerful characters in media don't align to D&D classes, hit points, or anything.
Literally plot armor.
You might have an argument if we were talking about freeform.
> Stop telling me that a random peasant can keep doing daily chores while a dagger in his stomach because it only did 2 damage.
Explain to me how a dagger does 1d4 damage while a longsword does 1d8 damage. The best possible damage with a dagger doing less damage than the best possible damage with a longsword.
Assuming the average human HP is 1d8 ( D&D monster manual places commoner HP at 1d8 ) Why is it possible for an ordinary human to survive maximal damage a dagger?

>>51768886
>swashbuckler class in 5e last time I checked
When was the last time you checked Swashbuckler is a Rogue archetype.

>>51767919
HP predate video games. They don't turn you into a video games character, they turn you into a D&D character.

>b-but it's stupid that a hero can do things a normal person can't do! Video games!

>You're not allowed to do anything cool for your first few levels.

FuuuUUUUUuuuuuuuck yoooOOOooooooou.

>>51770706
But in real D&D you're not a hero. You're a scummy tomb robber and thief.
D&D really should have kept to dungeon crawling and made what modern D&D is an entirely different product line.

>>51770727
The literal definition of fighting men above I think 5th level was Hero, since he was a man with the strength of 5. That's what Gary himself used to describe it.

>>51767630
Point buy.

OK, perhaps that's a little harsh You can do point buy alright but it seems to be at the root of a lot of situations I've disliked

>Point buy in D&D: the 18, 18, 10, 8, 8, 8 array.
You now have maxed values in your class of choice's key stat(s). Just like every other cookie cutter point buy member of your class. You have no notable traits aside from being fitted to your class. You probably will not spend a clipped copper on anything that you haven't mathed out to be on your ideal path. Fox only, no items, final destination. Some players can restrain themselves from becoming minmaxed robots when presented with point buy, but plenty just can't. And I for one enjoy the process of refining statistical noise into a person. It's nice to have an unexpected flaw or weird ace-in-the-hole generated by an aberrant high or low stat outside the "standard array" of the class.

>Point buy outside D&D: "I have a horrible ear for music so now I'm better at gunplay"
Ground-up point buy systems can work, but sometimes it feels like they're playing marco polo in a minefield of bad decisions. The most common of which is having unbounded flaws that reward points (Including the ability to sell your stats down to "how are you even a functional character in universe?" levels). I've seen diplomancers with the physical ability of Bran Stark, the mental and verbal acumen of his 'steed' Hodor, and enough charisma (or at least the equivalent) that by RAW most folks ought to be falling down and worshiping this person. I've seen characters that CAN, in fact, summon 50,000 Blue Whales in one go (That one was more of an issue in having no good boundaries rather than excessive drawbacks). And of course the murdermachines with literally no ability or inclination do do anything but murder (making their social flaws irrelevant) like we're playing "Friday the 13th, but Jason is in your party"

Some of these even made it all the way to the table.

>>51770766
Yeah, not until level 5.
Starting from level 1.
With old school lethality.
You're a hero, NOT a SUPERhero.

>since he was a man with the strength of 5
Not the strength of 5 men. Modifiers didn't go that high. Could fight 5 men at once and win. Not due to any stats, but rules fiat. Big difference.

>>51770819
>Not the strength of 5 men. Modifiers didn't go that high. Could fight 5 men at once and win.

In the first versions of the game they played, he actually could. A level literally meant that he counted as 1 more men in a unit. So a level 5 counted as 5 men. And above level 15 he progressed to super-heroic.

I'm serious. Look it up if you don't believe me.

>>51770642
>Assuming the average human HP is 1d8 ( D&D monster manual places commoner HP at 1d8 ) Why is it possible for an ordinary human to survive maximal damage a dagger?
It takes a fairly good stab it kill a dude with a dagger in one hit. We'd call that a 'critical' hit, which does twice as much potential damage. A good, clean hit with a longsword is gonna mess up your shit a little better.

But really, this is D&D and you're arguing about daggers? Try housecats.

>>51770817
>Point buy
Agreed. Attribute arrays are a must in level-based systems like D&D. I also prefer class systems where every attribute matters so you get more dynamic and interesting characters, like a Wis & Cha-based warrior or a Con-mage.

>Point buy outside D&D
Priority systems are a must in these games. Split race, attributes, skills, finances, and merits/flaws into five categories and let players rate them from A to E. The higher the rating the more they start with. Players can still do weird shenanigans with their priorities but at least it severely limits their ability to min-max their characters.

>>51770852
>It takes a fairly good stab it kill a dude with a dagger in one hit.
And maximal damage from a dagger isn't "a fairly good stab"?
Attributing dagger 1 shots to crits don't make sense, as Hit rolls don't determine hit location or severity of damage.

>>51770884
>Hit rolls don't determine hit location or severity of damage.
That is EXACTLY what they do (at least in part) in any system with critical hits on the to-hit roll. Of which D&D is one.

>>51770884
Then don't play D&D and stop bothering the people who do.
>S-Stop playing that game because it's THE WRONG WAY TO HAVE FUN!!

>>51767630
Levels.

Gaining xp for brainless monster killing.

Rigid class system.

>>51770989
Just don't play that system.

>>51770100
Not that guy, but classes are balanced around having and using all their features. I'd rather tale two different classes and be able to use all the features (and therefore be competitive balance-wise with the party) than have to deliberately limit myself and fall behind the party just to fit a build.

That being said if I was DM I'd try and find a way to refluff or swap out Wild Shapes so the build and concept were better in tune.

>>51771006
You may have missed that this is a discussion thread about mechanics you hate. I assume that indeed, >>51770989 doesn't play systems with XP/Levels/classes, like the elitist hipster faggot he is.

>>51767989
It just sounds like an awkward abstraction for either refusing to take credit for some of the things you did, changing your identity, or >>51768008

>>51767630
When you roll to attack an opponent, *and then* the opponent rolls to avoid the attack.

>>51771084
This; either use a static defense or what One Roll Engine does and have have that be resolved in one roll.

Metacurrencies, they either get forgotten or the game revolves entirely around them.

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>>51768921
>they insure that magic classes aren't overpowered.

>>51770554
I also dislike systems where defending yourself (with a roll) is not automatic and always possible. Should've said that. Although it's not exactly hate, just cold contempt.

Also it's not high attack roll=high damage but high difference between attack and defense= high damage. Even if the system has some shit pokemon-like combat system where you let yourself to be hit waiting for your turn to attack, there's often a mechanic that establishes how difficult you are to hit even if you're not rolling.

>>51772060
>there's often a mechanic that establishes how difficult you are to hit even if you're not rolling.
That's what AC is. There's also flat-footed and Touch to account for situational modifiers.

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>>51767869
>>Spell Slots/Vancian Casting
>>HP Bloat
>>51769094
>>Armor Class
>>51769319
>armor strength
>>51770417
>Mine is Level Disparity

Hackmaster deals with all these very well and might be what you're looking for.

>>51767869
>"Hurr durr I'm too exhausted to cast any more level 1 spells, but I can still cast a level 3 spell. Hurr durr all spells are just some autistic memory trick where you prepare the spell 99% at the start of the day and then complete it during combat.
It makes even less sense for sorcerers, since they're supposed to have magic as an inherent part of their being. They should have used some kind of mana system to further distinguish them from wizards.

>>51768138
>And he got that way from hitting the ground at terminal velocity, or swimming through a VAT of sulphuric acid, or being tossed face first into a pool of lava.
I don't know, I feel like those are situations where it's fine for the DM to just say "That will fucking kill you, I don't care how much HP you have." I don't think you need precise rules and numbers for every single thing.

>>51774443
I don't either. But there are rules specifying how much damage those things do in concrete numbers, and higher level characters have the HP to survive them, even without elemental resistance.

>>51774503
Acid: 10d6/Rd
Falling: 20d6
Magma: 20d6/Rd

>>51770536
It's shit and it lacks any continuity or connection to the original settings creators.

Like it would still be badly written shit if but if they were working with any continuity or connection to Tom Dowd, or with a huge pile of old notes from Nigel Findley then, at least, it would be rooted in the original plan for the world.

The new Amazonia shit was my chosen example for a reason. It would great to finally find out what was going on in Amazonia, but it's about as likely and accurate to the original Amazonia as my personal version of the US in the Harry Potter universe.

Feats.

>>51768076
It fucking magic you autist

>>51768284
>They are almost never treated as meat points.
wow.
fanboy denial or paid shill?

>>51768454
>I'd suggest everyone work that sort of thing into their GM style
either that or you play something other than D&D

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>>51768516
well, it declined in style when bradstreet left. I dig most of 2E though. 3E was not for me

>>51768863
well, it was punk. today, it's more gloss.

>>51771084
>>51771157
fuck you. this mechanic creates interplay between GM and players in combat like that. also, dodging a giant's or dragon's (lethal) attack feels awesome

>>51767630
Vancian magic and D&D's approach to magic in general.
Tightly-defined classes with little variation.
Armor Class being based on stats/armor and not level.
Also, daily reminder that HP is plot armor, a fact that explains everything about it.
>Why magic restores it
>Why certain classes get more than others
>Why 1 HP means you work normally and 0 HP means you die
>Why certain spells and effects straight-up bypass it
>Why you managed to survive falling into lava
>Why losing 90% of your HP != losing at least an arm
>Why it increases as you level up
Higher Constitution means that you can excuse away a certain amount of damage as 'I'm just that tough'. Higher level means more investment has been made into your character and your experience in combat makes it harder for you to die. Healing magic indicates that your health has been restored (duh), so
it's easier to justify you surviving that next blow.
A 20th-level decrepit wizard has more health than a hardy town guard because the character is more important, not because he would be harder to kill in real life.

>>51767688
>Obfuscating and needlessly complicated dice mechanics in general. If I need to spend 10 minutes on anydice to calculate probabilities of a skill roll instead of being able to guesstimate it, or I need to roll like 5+ dice just to punch someone (and then he needs to roll dodge and then I need to roll damage and then he needs to roll soak) you need to sit down and think about what you just done.

Fuck you, shadowrun is great.

>>51777953
Edit:
>Armor Class being based on stats/armor, but not level.
If experience doesn't make you harder to hit, I don't understand why natural talent does. But I guess that's rolled up in HP, which reminds me.
>HP bloat

Mandatory class story baggage.

Playing this class/archetype? You have to have this debt/destiny/psychosis!

>>51774268
Never heard of it before, I'll look into it.

The issue isn't whether Hit Points are Meat Points or not.
They aren't.

The issue is that Damage isn't damage unless the Damage damages, then the damaging Damage is damage, but the Damage that doesn't damage isn't damage.

For some reason, some people can't understand such a simple concept.

>>51767630
Metacurrency

>>51767630

Levelling means taking more than a minute tops.

JESUS.

I can deal with overly long character creation, but hate this shit.

>>51767630

Rule Zero.

Tough I don't play games with that, so oddly enough I can't really hate that. I pity the fools who use it, tough.

>>51778561
This.

AC represents Armor+Dodge+basic miss chance
If an hit gets past AC, that means, it wasn't a miss due to the attacker failing to aim on his part, the defender dodging, the defender blocking or the defender being hit with the armor protecting him.
The only other thing that qualifies as being hit is weapon meeting flesh. It has to be at least a little tiny scrape.

If HP aren't "meat points" what happens?

>>51779080
Do you have an issue with GM arbitration or have you just embraced the trauma inflicted upon you by That GM?

>>51779134
>If HP aren't "meat points" what happens?
Deflection, reduction, and mitigation?
The issue is that the "Hit" doesn't necessarily cause "damage" it causes "Damage".

>>51770586
And GURPS is terrible.

>>51779625

I have an issue for excuses in game design.

No BG would be so low-standard to say "well, these rules could be shitty, so make things up".

Personally, I didn't really have problems with GM arbitrations in rules.

>>51779685
So you hate people the most?

>>51779747
>No BG would be so low-standard to say "well, these rules could be shitty, so make things up".

Most games instead say "We understand that people have differences in play preferences, so feel free to adjust the game to suit your tastes."

Quit being literally autistic.

>>51779747
Sounds more like an issue with games designed with too much reliance on GM arbitration, rather than an issue with Rule Zero.
That's fair.
It bugs me when half a rulebook says "up to the GM's discretion".
Provide a fucking default, you lazy bastards.

However, games that pretend that their rules are 100% fool proof are just as bad, unless they're damn simple.

Rule 0 is just stating that the GM is the Game Master in control of the game, not just a dice roller flunky there to obey programming.
There is nothing wrong with Rule 0.

There are some splatbooks for RPGs where when you take a percentage of your health in damage you begin to take minus's to all your rolls.
Fair enough
Except this doesn't really effect spell-casters who don't need to roll to cast their spells unless under duress. As if Spellcasters dont overshadow the mundane classes already.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer

>>51767630
For me it's less of a mechanic than the absence of one. Specifically, I hate systems that don't have a clear system for creating or advancing NPCs and monsters. I hate having to eyeball whether an enemy is an appropriate challenge for the player characters.

>>51780266
Once again, GURPS proves better than D&D. Every spell requires a skill check, just like swinging a sword or picking a lock.

>>51779063
Rolemaster is the worst for this

>>51780266
Games I've seen that have a death spiral have spellcasting rolls.

The only game I've seen where for magic the defender rolls is D&D

>>51771084
>>51771157
Fuck you, if the faggot can get lucky and hit me I can get lucky and dodge. My life should never be affected without ME failing a roll.

>>51772171
I avoided saying AC to avoid talking about D&D. The point is your damage should never be 1d8, but a number determined by how much your roll beats the AC or similar thing to AC (or even better: the enemy roll). If you barely surpassed, making 8 damage is stupid. If you surpass it by far dealing 1 damage is simply retarded.

>>51780651
>>51767630
TFW you crit then roll minimum damage.

Classes

>>51779726
Still better than any iteration if D&D.

I just hate rollplaying in general. I play RPGs for the ROLEplaying.

>>51780886
Don't you have a lonely, dying general to prop up on sticks in order to pretend your game isn't terrible and unloved?

>>51768863
>Don't even get me started on the slow shrinking of trolls, or when Elves suddenly became omnivores.
Honestly the height of trolls always felt like a number that wasn't baked up by the rest of the game. Both the fluff and game mechanics tended to treat trolls as though the average specimen were the size of a professional basketball player, rather than being so freakishly huge that even the tallest human being ever is still short of average troll height. As such the gradual shrinking of trolls was simply bringing the troll size line with how the game always treated them as being. Put another way, for game balance reasons the game couldn't actually give trolls the stats that real 9 foot tall armoured monsters would have, so they never really were 9 foot tall armoured monsters in the first place. Might as well have the their write-up reflect that reality, rather than pretend otherwise.

However there's no real excuse for establishing that all elves are vegetarians and then quietly dropping it. There was nothing in the game fluff or mechanics suggesting this wasn't the case. It's my suspicion that the later writers simply forgot that elves were supposed to be herbivores.

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>>51767803
Have you tired not playing WotC's "D&D"?
Because it sound like you'd enjoy TSR's.

>>51770233
>If HP is a mix of luck, skill, and meat points then why does a longsword always do 1d8 damage instead of scaling like HP?
It does scale, that's what "extra attacks" are.
>>51770642
>maximal
Sure is a funny way to spell maximum, but I digress.
>Explain to me how a dagger does 1d4 damage while a longsword does 1d8 damage.
Used to be they all did 1d6. Weaker weapons "got more hits in", or whatever.


Really though, what happened was:
Gygax scaled down a combat system from an abstract wargaming system.
Then, after the company tanked several times, Wizards of the Coast bought the IP.
To cash in on it, they hired people vaguely familiar with the material to make something superficially similar.

A lot of things got distorted by that, but the absolute worst offender was "rounds are ~6 in-game seconds."
It was much, MUCH easier to handwave combat abstractions and over-time-averages when rounds were 60 seconds.

>>51777695
I must have missed the game that has that level of built in detail for combat rolls. Probably a Rolemaster product.

>>51780651
It's abstraction in six second rounds vs autistic levels of simulation in 1 second rounds.

>>51767688
>tfw you want to roll 10 dice minimum per roll, I guess because sadomasochism

I looooove dice pools, my man.

>>51782844
Personally, I think a single roll of a large number of dice (like say a dice pool), is fine, while having to make a bunch of separate rolls, even with over all less dice, is generally not, as the steps and calculations take up way more times than counting up successes

>>51782551
>To cash in on it, they hired people vaguely familiar with the material to make something superficially similar.
Actually it was almost certainly retrofitting parts of a preexisting Fallout system into D&D. At the time they had the license for an unspecified game, then they bought out TSR's properties and started work on 3E. It's not a coincidence that 3E and Fallout have the same XP table and that feats follow the same distribution as perks, getting one at level 1 aside, but even that's pretty much wrapping your starting gifts into the same system.

>>51781851
'quietly'? They outright mocked the concept of vegetarian elves in the SR3 core book.

>>51767970
The best way I can think of hit points actually making sense is as a representation of your ability to not get hit. In this situation, when the orc comes at you with his rusted sword the commoner gets stabbed and dies while the level 20 fighter has to go slightly out of his way to dodge it before cutting the overconfident little shit in half. Basically when dealing with a raging barbarian's health pool just imagine them doing anime levels of dodging in a fight instead of absorbing sword with their chest and it makes a touch more sense.

>>51780902
I hate this meme.

>>51783534
Touch ac says whether they made contact.
Touch+shield says whether you blocked it.
Touch+shield+armor+na says whether the hit was stopped by your armor.

But if they pass your touch ac, you didn't dodge.

>>51777862
>If I have to roll dice, that means I'm doing something!
>Look at this skillful play as I roll these entirely fucking random dice!

>>51784192
t. 3.pfag

Even among the D&D crowd, most people play a different system than you.
Just because your mechanics have no thematic justification doesn't mean no one else's do either.

>>51784255
Sure. But pf is just as likely as 5e. I'm not going to assume you're *not* playing 3.x.

>>51780558
That's why you have a defense stat.....
Your "luck" is hitting back, not denying someone theirs.

>>51767630
Any kind of perk, ability, or whatever that offers some increase to something per level, but isn't retroactive. It usually means that EVERY character winds up taking it at that point, which means nobody really got anything, and the ones that didn't are now forever behind.

>>51777953
thanks for your explanation, HP is still a shit gamist mechanic though.

>>51767630
Vancian casting.

I can endure literally everything, but not this shit.

>>51777953
>>51778561
>1 HP is enough to insert a poison into bloodstream
>HP are not meat points
the fact is: HP are whatever D&D feels they are at a given time. there's no consistent theme to them. and since D&D has largely gamist fanbase, they don't really mind.

but for a simulationist like me, this is strictly bullshit

>>51779063
>>51780449
Seriously? Who doesn't like improving your character every few sessions??? It's exactly this thing that sparks up imagination about future sessions.

>>51767630
Hit points.
Taking damage is always, always fucking terrifying in a medieval setting. In sci fi/modern it doesn't trigger my autism, but I always feel a little peeved that there's guys I play with who have no problem letting their character get knocked into negatives because "The cleric can stabilise us"
> I'll be injured so badly I might not survive and will almost certainly leave a scar/internal injury
> because the cleric can fix it
We're not bionicles.

>>51784519
I don't like having to update like 200 numbers and reroll my stats every few sessions no.

Level up in rm takes fucking forever, and most of it is blind luck and recalculating shit.

>>51784534
Depends on the setting

>>51780949
don't you have to call the Big Bang Theory producers to make them mention D&D more before sales start to slip?

vancian power system(power/day) ,especially if distributed unevenly across classes.

1 combat per day? now wizard is god.
6 combat per day? now wizard is ok and warriors are great.

it makes it very awkward for DMs to balance their campaign and storytell

>>51784534
> I'll be injured so badly I might not survive and will almost certainly leave a scar/internal injury

Not an issue because fucking magic. Don't like it, don't play games where a mid-level cleric can easily cure any non-magical injury short of a missing limb and even raise people from dead.

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>>51782551
>It does scale, that's what "extra attacks" are.
bwahahaha, the rationalizations become ever more absurd. it's like watching an 8yo lying and entangling themselves ever further in a web of ever irrational lies.

listen buddy: before OD&D/Chainmail, every miniature was removed when getting hit. hit points were introduced to make special mins/characters more durable. it's the simplest solution to do that. 45 years later, it is still widespread.

but it remains the simplest solution... and here we have morons like you trying to sell us that the simplest,m the most GAMIST solution is entirely plausible.

no. fuck off, you're not bullshitting anyone.

hitpoints are not about realism nor plausibility.

>>51782664
No, in other games
>the attack can fail
>the parry or the dodge roll can succeed
>the damage can be soaked by armor

>inb4 doing all those rolls is so incredibly time consuming
no, it isn't. if you don't like rolling dice, play checkers, faggots.

>>51784230
yep, it means as a player I have my fate in my own hand as that dragon is coming at me. if the GM makes a critical attack roll, I still get to dodge by an epic critical dodge roll.

the moments between a successful attack roll by a powerful monster and the dodge roll of a player are quite intense.

so yeah, fuck you, deendeefags. D&D is okay as gaming system but it's its fanbase that is pure cancer.

keep whining how long rolling for parry/dodge makes combat some more.
protipp: combats in other games don't last any longer than in D&D

Injecting elves and fantasy into everything, Shadowrun is a good example.

>>51784652
Pathfinder player here.

Pathfinder would be better with rolled defenses and spellcasting attempt rolls.

>>51782551
>but the absolute worst offender was "rounds are ~6 in-game seconds."
You mean that thing that Basic did?

>>51783534
This, combined with "stamina" damage, minimizing damage, and a little bit of beefiness and the grit to not roll over and die from pain is how I imagine it.
The level 20 Fighter is so in-the zone that he can effectively evade, deflect, and ignore what few nicks he does get delivered by the level one orc warrior for a few hours before the battering, nicks, and plain fatigue wear him down. If AC is the ability to avoid damage altogether, I view HP as the ability to minimize damage. The Barbarian isn't literally able to be stabbed in the face two or three times as much as the Wizard, the Barbarian is just much better at turning those stabs to the face into nicks to the cheek thanks to better combat instincts, and can keep such maneuvers up longer thanks to his fitness.

>>51770578
Thing is, as long as the peasant has HP left the dagger isn't sticking to his side, but it just scratched him or made him more winded, or maybe made him a little less lucky. He can carry on his daily tasks entirely fine, because he isn't suffering from any penalties to rolls from the dagger strike.

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>>51768142
>Bounded Accuracy was a mistake. Fullstop.

>>51785697
Not that guy, but I can see the point, especially where skills are concerned.

The streamlined proficiency bonus is one thing, but an increase of +20% over 20 levels is a mess, in a game where you go from struggling against goblins to fist fighting dragons.

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>>51784305
>I'm not going to assume you're *not* playing 3.x.

Class, there is no need to it.
Its not that this is the worse feature ever by itself, but the fact that make it the worst feature ever is the fact there is NO REASON to do it

>>51769094
>Why does some chump in padded armor with high dexterity survive more than a man wearing 7 inches of steel on all sides of his body, and he has a shield.

because
>d&d
>logic or consistent lack of logic like in dadaism

>>51783534
>>51784865
The problem with this line of thinking is that AC is already an abstraction of your character's ability to not be hit and damage rolls aren't fixed like they are in, say, ShadowRun.

A dagger can deal up to 1d4+X damage, that's all that weapon can do in a single attack and worst case scenario, the person swinging rolls a 1+X, which might as well be fluffed as your character minimizing the damage anyways.

If you didn't have to roll damage and weapons had a base that a good roll could add on top of it, and there were multiple forms of AC to distinguish dodging (taking no damage) vs. soaking (minimizing the damage taken) then maybe your explanation could work but as it stands, it runs contrary to so many different mechanics that you end up causing more questions than answers.

It's easier just to say "HP is plot armor" and move along, because that's basically what it is.

>>51782551
60 second rounds are fine for skirmish games. Not bestowing RPGs with greater granularity is moronic however.

>>51788021
>HP is plot armor
It's unheroic though. Think Bruce Willis - heroes need to suffer abuse.

>>51788225
If D&D characters were meant to suffer abuse then they wouldn't have so much HP and there'd be consequences for losing more than half of it.

Think less Bruce Willis and more Superman w/o the presence of kryptonite.

>>51768454
It's a huge flaw in the HP system that it requires you to make up all this shit as you go along. Plus it's just kinda stupid at higher levels when you're going "the orc hits you with his battle axe for 9 damage! I mean, it doesn't really hit you, you just feel a little bit more tired, but you lose 9 hit points!"

Where the fuck is the problem with HP being your capability of getting stabbed and toughing it out? It happens all the time in fiction, for fuck's sake.

>>51769319

In the case of D&D and the like, and if you meant for something like damage reduction being "armor strength", then damage scales in a manner similar to hitpoints, except maybe twice as slow as hitpoints does.

But what then of damage reduction? Damage reduction remains the same over time, and often doesn't scale.

So an attack that once did 10 damage against a damage reduction of 5 would deal 5 damage. Then when that attack becomes a 60 damage attack against that damage reduction of 5, it would deal 55 damage.

In the end, damage reduction loses its usefulness and becomes outclassed by progression.

See what I'm saying?

>>51788317
No, not necessarily. Death Spirals, Wound Penalties and shit like that often aren't fucking FUN to deal with. Sure, if you want to play a nitty, gritty, muh verisimilitude game you can use it, but most campaigns just get dragged down by it. It's not fun to get stabbed in the dick and die from shock and RPGs are, first and foremost, meant to be fun to play. D&D has a shitload of problems, even in the execution of HP, but HP as a concept isn't one.

>>51788597
If you don't want to suffer from death spirals, wound penalties, and shit like that then either don't get hit or don't just throw yourself into combat situations willy-nilly.

I've played in three separate Shadowrun games and I've never gotten killed because of death spirals as you go on about because the group was smart and combat only happened as an absolute last resort because we knew that unless we had armor, getting shot can, and will, kill us in one hit.

In D&D though, there's really no tension because most creatures aren't going to chew through your HP pool, it's about as close you can get to being characters in a Saturday Morning cartoon without the game winking and nudging and beating you over the head with meta jokes. The only reason why combat isn't a complete waste of time is because you get XP for killing shit.

FUCKING INVENTORY SYSTEMS JUST LET ME FUCKING CARRY EVERYTHING YOU FUCKS. EVERY SINGLE FUCKING RPG FUCKING HAS LIMITED INVENTORY FOR NO FUCKING REASON.

IT ADDS NOTHING TO THE FUCKING GAMEPLAY EXCEPT FRUSTRATION. IT'S NOT FUCKING REALISM BECAUSE YOU ALREADY MAKE COMPROMISES FOR REALISM, YOU'RE ONLY FUCKING DOING IT BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE HAD THE SAME FUCKING SHITTY IDEA ON HOW TO RUIN THEIR FUCKING VIDEO GAME. KILL YOURSELF YOU FUCK.

>>51789291
>>>/v/

>>51789316
/v/ is a trolling board. There is no video games board so I have to post vaguely off topic shit in other threads.

>>51789346
>>>/trash/

>>51789371
Why are you linking me to /fur/?

>>51789392
>>>/u/

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>>51767630

Alignment

>>51767630
Classes.
Levels is a close second though.

>>51767630
>Rolling for damage
It sucks when you get a hit on someone yet you still only deal like 1 damage because you rolled shit.
>HP Bloat
Specifically when a dude can get stabbed with a dagger yet the damage is only marginally more than getting cut with a butter knife. Even worse when the damage taken is arbitrary and there's no difference between being at full health and 1HP.
>Alignments
If it involves good vs. evil, it's going to be shit, no exceptions. Even worse if there are mechanical penalties for not being good enough (which usually amounts to how much you take it on the chin from the GM's catch 22 scenarios).
>Static defense
If I'm taking a hit, I want to take that hit because I rolled poorly on a defense roll, not because my opponent rolled higher than my AC or some shit.
>Levels
Specifically when they don't reflect that power level of one class vs. another.
>Classes
Specifically when they remove options, like the Rogue being the only class that can search for traps.

>>51784773
Almost nothing in basic occurred in segments.

>>51767630
Pretty much everything about DnD.

Alignment
Classes
d20
"Encounters"
Levels
Spell Slots
Vancian Magic

>>51788848
>I've played in three separate Shadowrun games

Look out guys, we have a fucking badass here!

Listen here, I'll let you in on a secret. D&D is not SR. In modern D&D, you are meant to fight. You are literally meant to fight 6 times a (adventuring) day.

In old D&D things were more SR-like, but by the same token, PCs (and enemies alike) were a LOT more vulnerable. I'd even go ahead and say that the death spiral mechanics of SR would have fit OD&D pretty well, but HP still works and was simple enough so w/e.

>all these people hating on classes

They are a really useful fucking tool. They aren't essential to all kinds of games, but they are a godsend for every game where you want the players to be a group of specialists.

>>51792234
Classes in the sense most people will reject them are just kill kits, that's why they're hated.

In World of Darkness you have something kind of like classes for every splat, but there's a lot more to every single iteration of those categories than "+1 BAB, +1 Reflex, Gain a feat, you can kill stuff a bit better now and get to add a +1 modifier to some of your boring ass 1d20 skill checks".

My personal thing is when skill ranges arbitrarily change as you level up. Savage Worlds and D6 System most notably:

Savage Worlds, as you increase die type, you're less likely to explode your dice and 'more' likely to just roll above a 4. But you roll a d6 as a backup most of the time anyway, regardless of your stat level.

D6 System has that weird 'any +3 becomes an additional die instead' mechanic; whereby a 3D+2 in an attribute, with a related skill at +2, instead of becoming 3D+4 instead becomes 4D+1. So rather than rolling between 7 and 22, you roll anything between 5 and 25.

>>51792405
With D6 I see it as a slight immediate downgrade that can be easily fixed, it's a little annoying but pretty meaningless in the grand sceme. Savage Worlds on the other had, it's just giving you a somewhat better chance to roll well rather than giving a meaningful increase.

>>51792113
>D20
So you hate a game based on it having 20 sided dice? Why only d20 then, wouldn't you also hate d100 games? They have an even wider degree of granularity.
>Encounters
So, you prefer a game where you don't meet other characters at all? Or do you mean you prefer a game where there is no combat?
That's gonna rule out basically all RPGs.

>>51792234
I like GURPS style lenses (classes). Useful tool to build an archetype quickly, but if I want to change something out for something else, I can just do that.

>>51767630
turn-based combat

>>51792852
As opposed to real time combat, which exists in what again?

How would that even work?

>>51792805
>So you hate a game based on it having 20 sided dice? Why only d20 then, wouldn't you also hate d100 games? They have an even wider degree of granularity.
I don't like d100 either. The only upside to d100 is that it's not typically used in DnD clones, so at least I can expect decent mechanics apart from the dice.

>Encounters
As in, "some discrete challenge rated for the 'party'". What happens in play should happen because it is sensible. Simply shoehorning in combat every session, or even worse, multiple times in a session - and only for the sake of combat - is beyond awful.

>>51792867
there are more narrative focused simultaneous focused combat systems out there. not saying they are better, just saying that the combat system is the root of 90% percent of the things i dislike in rpgs.

>>51792941
wow I wrote that like a complete spaz, but i think it got the point across.

>>51792912
>Combat where it makes no sense
I have not played in a d&d game where that comes up. If you're not exploring ancient ruins, or fighting in a war, you don't get nearly the expected number of encounters a day, on average. You get whatever encounters make sense.

>Big dice
What's wrong with big dice? Personally I don't like things with d4s and d6s. They just don't roll well, too likely to just sort of "plop".

>>51792941
Specific example and a mention of what you like about it better?

I think you're describing owod combat, and I don't really see the appeal of it. But I may be misunderstanding.

>>51788533

It's just the 'tism. Leave them to it.

That being said, I'm not fond of Classes, but I do see why they are used, and in some games, it's a perfectly fine mechanic. I just don't like feeling confined to taking one or the other.

>>51793020
>I have not played in a d&d game where that comes up
You're being ridiculous. First off, by RAW, DnD expects you to be fighting in random encounters several times a day. All of its classes revolve around killing and progression amounts to being more effective at killing. The game is about /killing/ things.

Second, in practice, you will find at least half a session is devoted exclusively to killing. This is not because that is reasonable and makes sense within the context of the game, but because action in DnD /is killing/. There are no fun mechanics for doing things outside of combat: almost everything comes down to either casting a spell or rolling a skill check.

You can drone on about old DnD and how exploration or theft-focused it was, but I am not talking about your grognard bullshit, I'm talking about the game that 95% of people actually play: 5e and 3.pf.

>>51792175
Speaking of which,
>>51788848
>In D&D though, [...] The only reason why combat isn't a complete waste of time is because you get XP for killing shit.
in OSR you only get ½xp for unguarded* treasure, but monsters themselves are worth almost 0xp.
*full xp for guarded treasure, even if you get the treasure without combat

>>51793023
I concur. I much prefer "point buy with conveniently arranged (optional) example packages, IE: "classes".

You can choose a class for simplicity, or you can just build what you want.

>>51793126
I'm talking about 5e and PF. PF in particular, since that's what I've got the most experience with.

Some days you might have one large combat. Some days there is no combat and you are doing kingdom management. Some days you gather Intel. Some days you might have 8 combats, or 2 combats that could easily fuck you up if you don't fight smart, or whatever.

I've not met a GM since I started gaming in 1999 who follows the DM guidelines for number of encounters when it doesn't make sense in the context of the story.

>>51793020
Haven't tried owod, but i have played around with the one-roll engine from Godlike a bit. Again i'm not gonna say that it is superior to others, but It does go a short way to alleviate some of my annoyances.

basically my answer was meant in a very broad sense. combat systems are the element that introduces balance issues and therefore powergamming and it breaks immersion with what is pretty often a very basic tactics minigame.

>>51793188
>I'm talking about 5e and PF. PF in particular, since that's what I've got the most experience with.
>I've not met a GM since I started gaming in 1999 who follows the DM guidelines for number of encounters when it doesn't make sense in the context of the story.
You're just a lying piece of shit, then. 99% of GMs for these shit games do nothing but pad out their generic, braindead "plot" with endless combat.

>>51792867
>As opposed to real time combat, which exists in what again?
Sword Path Glory kind of has that

>How would that even work?
Each turn is ultra small 1/12 seconds. Each action cost X turns based at your skill and stats and items.
At some turn you can do 2 things, wait or decide what you are going to do. If some action cost 10 turns, and you say at turn 1 you will do that action, at the end of turn 10, this action will be made.
Everyone decide what they are going to do at the same time, at the turn.

>>51793236
>My experiences with different people run counter to yours so I'm gonna call you a liar.
Okay then. Whatever makes you feel better.

>>51793337
That... That sounds incredibly time consuming. No?

>>51793236
Personally when I run Pathfinder it's typically an urban or kingdom building campaign, with a sandbox setup, factions that accomplish shit on a timeline unless the PCs intervene, and random events/encounters (combat or otherwise) I roll on various tables and tweak as needed throughout the campaign with different tables depending on where they are and what the situation is in that area.

The plot is what the PCs do. If they PCs choose not to make any enemies and meddle indirectly, I react accordingly.

But I put together the setting, and then use it to react to what the PCs do, not plod them along some prescripted series of events they need to follow.

The other GMs I game with tend to have more linear plots and improv based on player actions, but if only one combat happens between rests, they don't shove several more at us.

>>51793647
I've been told I run d&d the same way I run Shadowrun. And I don't see any compelling reason to stop doing that.

>>51793647
>Personally when I run Pathfinder it's typically an urban or kingdom building campaign, with a sandbox setup, factions that accomplish shit on a timeline unless the PCs intervene, and random events/encounters (combat or otherwise) I roll on various tables and tweak as needed throughout the campaign with different tables depending on where they are and what the situation is in that area.
Okay, you're just full of shit. That's the fantasy some "ideas guy" permaplayer/NARPfag autistic would have about GMing.

>>51793877
>Nobody GMs like that!
Maybe you just have shit GMs.

>NARPfag
What the fuck is a NATO?

>>51793929
NARP* damn autocorrect

>>51793929
Never Actually RolePlayed = NARPfag

Most of the people who post about your manner of cancer, especially common among dnd-drones, are NARPfag "ideas guys" "le theorycrafting" autistics. Like you.

>>51793020
Not that guy, but I see where he's coming from on the combat front. It's cause most 'travelling' or 'neutral' game-time is glossed over, so even though 3 days of travelling during which Fuck and All has happened, it's represented by the simple phrase "So, 4 days into your journey, you come across...", thus making a in-game 5 minute fight last the majority of a 3 hour session.

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>>51793968
>Dnd drones
This implies that it's both my favorite game and the only one I like.

I prefer EotE, and Shadowrun and Cinematic Unisystem, actually, but I have played a lot of 3.X.

>Your manner of cancer
And what pray tell, is that. Actually running a campaign with the systems they use rather than. Just vomiting up monsters from the monster manual for you to fight, just because? Maybe you need a better GM.

>Never actually roleplayed.
Right. Gotcha. Meaningless insult you can't prove one way or another, like calling them gay or a virgin.

>All of this applies to you.
Sure, buddy, keep telling yourself that. I just bought all these books to look at.

>>51794000
But he didn't even mention majority of a session. He mentioned fights in a day.

And that ignores the inevitable sessions spent dicking around in town collecting information, shopping, etc, not to mention campaigns that have kingdom building.

I'm not saying there's not a lot of combat in D&D, there's a lot of combat in most RPGs.

He clearly thinks you can't actually run a campaign with it, with his ridiculous comments, and that's just stupid.

>>51793968
What, no more retarded accusations?

>>51794158

you have some DnD and also some good taste on that shelf

what are those black books i can't read on shelf 4, right?

thanks!

>>51794830
On the left next to SoiFRPG, Mongoose legend and RQ.

On the right oWoD vampire clanbooks.

On shelf 5, on the left is WoD stuff, and on the right is Unisystem stuff.

>>51794830
And the coilbound book and the unreadable one next to the WOD splatbooks on shelf 4 are white wolf's aberrant.
On shelf 5 at the very right is a couple folders filled with character sheets and old campaign notes.

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>>51794158
Thus is what "sandbox" gm-ing looks like.
Come back if you stop being a faggot.

>>51792867
There are combat systems that don't use turns, but actual seconds. Hackmaster, Aces & Eights, and others do this.

>>51795119
And what of it?

The sandbox techniques in that document that I use are

>Ample opportunity
>Autoplay
>Random

I hadn't seen this document before. Island design style is something I tend to use to some degree, but had not codified it.

So.

You say I don't know how to GM a sandbox, and then post a document that names and describes techniques which match up to what I described upthread.

Is there a point hidden in all of this butthurt?