/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

FIRST FOR MAGE SUPREMACY

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>>51719802
>If you could, would you rewrite mage and how?
Make their max power level lower. Still have them being the strongest splat but just lower it so they aren't off making whole universes or dumb shit like that

>>51719802
>If you could, would you rewrite mage and how?
>(either line)
I'd make each Tradition its own splat properly so that the Purple Paradigm fucks off to hell.

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Enter my Sanctum child. I will show you how to unlock Supernal Secrets

>>51719802
>If you could, would you rewrite mage and how?

For Ascension, step 1 would be to fire Brucato.

After that, anything will be an improvement.

>>51719854

I don't habeeb you.

I change my answer from
>>51719842
To
>>51719859

>IT MIGHT SAVE MY WASTED $375 EVEN IF IT HAPPENED AT THIS POINT

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I FUCKING LOVE PHIL BRUCATO

>>51719854

With that open fire and bubbling cauldron, she's going to burn all the sensitive important bits. Didn't her mentor ever teach her sanctum safety.

Also, mage sanctums are no place for children, and there will be no unlocking of anything without proper supervision.

>>51719854
You're kind won't fool me again. There's *always* animal fucking involved with you lot. Oh sure, you'll deny it, maybe get offended or even try to reassure me, but it always, always ends in animal fucking.

>>51719984
Are you sure this wasn't directed at the author of changing breeds and this guy >>51719923

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Awakening? Get rid of Atlantis, integrate it more with IRL occultism [like Ascension], get rid of or heavily revise the Wisdom rules.

That and simplify shit a little.

>>51719854

Just because you're Thrysus, doesn't mean you need to act like every ritual is a porn shoot.

>>51720020
Why would you wear clothes when the world can't tell you what to do anymore. I sure wouldn't.

>>51720019
Read 2nd Edition

Is a door an environmental Yantra?

>>51720003
Don't let those Thyrsus degenerates fool you, there's *always* animal fucking involved.

>>51719909

You knew it was going to be Brucato, they were always open about it being Brucato, and you dropped almost 400 dollars on it anyways.

The signs were all there during the campaign and yet you spent the price of a gaming console on sale for it. Why?

>>51720038
I have, I like it marginally better then the old Awakening, but still find it a bit bloated and dislike the Wisdom rules.

>>51720054
Yes

>>51720054
No. Unless it's like a very important door for like a portal spell.

>>51720070
>Why?
Because I confused the fun I had playing Mage with his influence instead of other authors.

>>51720031

I did not Awaken, brave the Aetheric fires, claim the Golden Key, and escape the prison of the Lie, just so I didn't have to wear pants.

Now, put on a robe, crack open a grimoire, and get studying. You'll have all the time in the world for your animal fornication once you're done with your apprenticeship.

>>51719991
Hey, I'm just the Storyteller. Ain't my job to tell them how to live their magical lives.

>>51720078
What about Wisdom don't you like?

>>51720090
Did you miss the decades of people bitching about Brucato?

>>51720105
I may have played in games run by his 'friends' or people who didn't think he was a joke. Should have looked into it more.

>>51720054
>Is a door an environmental Yantra?

It needs to be a particular and special door at a specific location that is semiotically linked to the spell at issue.

>>51720103
Two things specifically.

1. Using magic for petty bullshit you can do with mundane means should not violate high wisdom. I should be able to be as wise as Orpheus [high Wisdom Obrimos from Venture Bros] and make dinner with telekinesis.

2. Killing or causing great harm is a violation. I can not STAND this DC comics morality. Its not murder thats banned. Its not "Killing innocents". Its worded as "Killing". If I was to use the system at all, that would be my very first house-rule [of course I generally dislike morality mechanics to begin with].

>>51719854
Can Thyrsus chicks give themselves dicks with Life?

>>51720129

Of course!

>>51720126
I thought they made that into unplanned killings in 2e?

>>51720129
>Can Thyrsus chicks give themselves dicks with Life?

Yes, and that's why you'll never be a Thyrsus.

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>>51720136
>>51720147
So this is the power of Mages

>>51720100

No one likes preachy and prudish Obrimos.

#PantsServeTheLie

>>51720142
Nope. And whats weirder, killing someone in a fit of passion is a WORSE violation then premediated murder. Its really stupid.

>>51720129
The question is never, ever 'can a mage do this?' because the answer is almost always 'yes'. The question is 'should they?'.

>>51720129
I have at least one NPC in my chronicle who does this regularly, so...

>>51720167
So the answer is 'Yes'.

>>51720177

Yes, congratulations, you can be dickomancer.

>>51720191
>dickomancer
Its everything I've ever wanted to be.

Anyone willing to share:

Tales of the Dark Eras
Night Horrors: Conquering Heroes
Beast Ready Made Characters

Thanks.

>>51720164
>#PantsServeTheLie

No,

#PantsProtectTheTruth

>>51720245
Lesser Ministry of Pants

>>51720245
>>51720710

Pantstechnicon Ministry?

>>51720800
Pantsternoster Ministry

>You wouldn't survive a day in my pants Atlantean

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Have you ever featured known characters, or have they been featured by the GM, in one of your games? Whether they're signature characters from Vampire the Masquerade or whatever the other splats have. I don't know shit about Requiem. Does it even have signature characters?

Rio is hitting Mummy backers this week, FYI

>>51720129

They could already have one.

What are the best fast food places for supernaturals to have meetings in? I cant get over the idea of these powerful monsters/supernatural beings sitting in the plastic seats at mcdonalds and talking shop.

To be honest I'm surprised that not every Thyrsus descends into extreme hedonism.

>>51720885
Yeah in the fiction it does. The Mekhet girl from Britain was pretty neat.

>>51721090
Denny's. Open late, staff is too stoned to pay attention, patrons are already abhumans.

Failing that maybe a white castle (they still got hi-c in the soda fountains).

>>51721090
I had once an idea that in an event of local Ordo Dracul leader ever becoming a prince in my chronicle elysium would get moved to his haven..with is in library of the university.

So you would have vampires in their best gowns and suits sitting around the reading tables and drinking blood out of plastic cups

>>51721112
Great so I have Denny's, McDonalds, White Castle and maybe the House of Pancakes. Not to mention regular nondescript open 24 hours corner diner.

>Get asked for a meeting with the city's prince
>expect to be treated to lavish finery
>he takes you to fucking Denny's

Even Vampire games need some humor sometimes.

>>51721142
It can get worse. He can buy you a hot dog at the gas station and tell you to stick yourself with it

>>51721142
>he loved to go there as a kid with his family and the franchise became one of his touchstones
>because of his influence and status Denny's are seen as the places to be by politically ambitious Kindred looking to get in with the Prince
>they cant eat but they go there anyway just to be seen there
>Because of this strange patronage the Denny's in the city are extremely successful
>more capitalist Kindred are looking to buy into the franchise
>tensions are mounting over ownership of the restaurants

This has potential.

>Changeling
>Kith is a custom one for digital bodies, durance was a character in an MMO
>get a three-dot token based on her weapon from her durance
>not sure what to do with it.

I figure it should do some kind of "magic," like be a sword that shoots projectiles? But I'm not sure how to do that and have it be cool but still balanced. Ideas?

>>51721171
>>51721142
>>51721128
In my Mage the Ascension campaign, the shrine-maiden dreamspeaker was incepted by a high ranking Technocrat [she likes to dreamwalk] and blackmailed into working with them on a supernatural threat [he's also trying to strong-arm her into joining the Union in general]

It was, almost to a T, a rip off of the "We need pie" scene in MiB3. The Technocrat acted just like K, wore casual clothes, and made her dream look like a 1950s diner.

>>51721200
When it comes down to this in my WtF game there was a vampire NPC Mister Henderson - Architect of the Monolith, Lord of Invictus and former Reeve....and landlord of the building wolves were renting apartment in.

Obviously one time after he gave them a hand in something they invited him to watch football game with them so you had this centuries old vampire in his tailored suit siting with bunch of hobos in their dump,

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Is this the Chronicles of Fagness?

>>51721458
Patrick was an archmage, we all know it.

Why is it always Dresden Files opening pictures?
I mean. There is loot of GOOD urban fantasy to draw from. Why the DF?

is Techne Merit only for one tool only?

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>>51721747

I liked this one the most.

So. Dark Eras Companion FINALLY into Layout.

Do you think we'll have it before midsummer?
I'm now giving it even odds.

>>51719802
Do it in some other system. In fact, I am working on my conversion right now. The nice bonus is that mages are lot less OP in it.

>>51719854
Do you use ritual sex as Yantra? Because looking at you, I am suddenly in the mood for the long, nice fuck.

>>51721112
It's like Der Waffle Haus from that awful show Dead Like Me. I love it

>>51721747
Dresden Files is popular, and therefore has more art. Also Mages run this general, so the wizard series it is.

>>51721800
That's going on the list of pick-up lines that will never work, right up there with "My penis is Dublin" and "You're the only Ten-I-See".

>>51722105
That's alright, I'll always have Mind Arcana for if my pick-up lines fail!

>>51722158
Enjoy being shunned as a rapist then. There's a Mind spell that can make people feel love for you, and in it's description it says that using magic to make people want you isn't considered much different than just raping them by Mages.

>>51722158
Who needs an attractive mind when you could have an attractive body?

Yeah that's right. Life > Mind

So...I loved first John Wick and was alright with second part. Anyone thinks setting of the movies would make an easy transplant into cofd?

>>51722274
Yeah, I'll bet your think that being smart and charismatic is also rape, because making people like you is rape.

>>51722276
No reason why you couldn't do both!

>>51722295

>Yeah, I'll bet your think that being smart and charismatic is also rape, because making people like you is rape.

Forcibly? Yeah, it kinda is. That isn't 'Being charismatic'. Someone under the effects of a mind altering substance can't give consent.

Pretty sure Mind Arcana falls under that category.

>>51722308
"Being charismatic" is squarely Mind Arcanum. No difference between being charismatic and gaining the exact same qualities which make you more charismatic with Mind Arcanum. Nobody said anything about denying consent to other party.

>>51722295
No shit, if magic was real then mentally manipulating people into liking you would be considered kind of pathetic and sad, also probably immoral by most people. Being smart and charismatic naturally is fine, because you're using your own merits in a fair playing field, and people can still have their own natural reactions to you.

Regarding sex, using magic to make people want to have sex with you would probably be considered the height of sleaze, and could also be reasonably construed as rape, since you are taking the choice away from them.

>>51722308
I think we've had this conversation in this thread before.

Making yourself look smarter and cooler is not rape. Making someone suck your dick is rape. One is shifting the odds of the game in your favor, the other is flipping the table and raping your opponent.

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>>51720885

I play VtM, and I once had Beckett in one of my games... He wasn't a focal point of it, though; he was merely visiting a local Elder in a search of the latest vampiric lore to be re-discovered, and the group encountered him in the Elder's library, (they were currently working for the Elder and paying off a life-boon) where Beckett gave a cordial greeting and started up a small conversation.

One of the PCs was a thinblood caitiff, who knew she came from a Gangrel great-sire, which she'd managed to piece together after her sire had abandoned her by asking around and following clues... Since meeting another gangrel in the city was pretty rare, she asked Beckett for some pointers on Protean, and the tips he gave her later allowed her to develop the first and second levels of Protean (with great difficulty mind you), along with teaching her some of the "culture" of clan Gangrel.

But yeah, that's the extent to which I include "canon" characters: they might get mentioned, or end up having veeeery minor appearances but they are never the focus of the story.

>>51722349
>Being smart and charismatic naturally is fine
And making yourself smart and charismatic with magic isn't fine? How so?

>>51722370
>And making yourself smart and charismatic with magic isn't fine? How so?

Because it's not 'Making yourself smart and charismatic'. The line this is about is:

>That's alright, I'll always have Mind Arcana for if my pick-up lines fail!

That's assuming that yes, your pick-up lines have already failed. You do not want you.

>>51722400
>fail to pickup a girl
>leave
>come back with a new appearance and your charisma stacked to the max

Why do people always go straight for mind control? Plenty of ways to use mind arcana to have a second attempt.

>>51722370
For the same reason that using performance enhancing drugs in sports isn't fine. Simply put, it isn't good sportsmanship. You're cheating and using crutches to compensate for your flaws instead of working to improve them. Making yourself more charismatic magically to achieve a good goal is fine, like convincing a scared victim to share information.

Making yourself more charismatic magically so that you hit it off with the ladies and possibly get laid isn't rape, just pathetic.

Making somebody outright want to fuck you is rape.

>>51722417

A new appearance is again getting into 'That's rape'. If you have sex with someone in a false identity that's Rape by Deception. That's legally a crime.

>>51722441
Depends on the state. All magical sex fiends, remember to read your states laws so you know just how far you can go.

>>51719802
>>Question
>If you could, would you rewrite mage and how?

For ascension, better combat system and more clearer magic and sorcery rules. Make clear in the core that the difference between each sphere level is a Tier of their own. Work the cabal of multi tradition mage into the actual political structure of the game and no largely ignore and make a political structure viable for a city beyond "meh just put a chantry in there"

As for awakening, give in the core a standard political structure fully fleshed for new players and DMs to get an idea of how the fuck this society works. Make in-close-my-eyes-and-think-very-hard spellcasting such a desperate move to make it almost not worthy. Make mage a more street game of throwing fireballs in back alleys and less a game of navel gazing and gurren laggan bullshit.

Make hitting your opponent directly almost always a better option than jerking off in your sanctum and killing your opponent from 50 km away.

Dont make the seers such boring mustache twirling antagonist with cool methods.

Either make it very clear that each arcanum is a tier of their own and that a mage having arcanum 4 to a mage with arcanum 3 is the equivalent of a Masquerade vampire with celerity 2 or 3 to a vampire with celerity 6. Or make make the arcanums longer (1 to 10) so the progression is slower.

Remove all the "fuck you i can raise this spell reflexively" that Dave put to keep the trite theme of privilege.

Make it clear that mastery and archmastery is like the D&D 20+ levels. Something for power fantasy wankers. Give them their own optional book for 2nd.

Make the whole game not necessarily be around mysteries. Or define example of grinding mysteries for players to get that wont shatter/define the campaign but just be an excuse for a player to raise arcanum 1 to 2.

1/2

>>51722452
The state laws aren't what you would need to worry about, honestly. What you would need to worry about are Hunters, Banishers, and even other Pentacle Mages. At least one will try to get his Cabal to help him handle you, or if you get really unlucky they would take your crimes before the Consilium and try to get you officially punished, and even if you got away with it (unlikely), your reputation would be ruined and everyone would know that you're a magical sex fiend.

>>51722498

2/2

Remove the whole "only X kind of people become mages" as poor excuse to justify why all the mages must be assholes.

>>51720103
>What about Wisdom don't you like?

For one it was lazy design, all the other behavior stats got a proper re-haul, Wisdom thought? Change the the level of sins a little, suggest they were guidelines instead of hard rules and call it a day.

Secondly suffer from the same problem from many behavior scales in NWoD, being "evil" is not worthy it. Having low wisdom carries 1 to no advantage so the whole "power corrupts" is dissonant. I would have keep the Resonance rules from Ascension revised, if you use a certain type of magic you gather resonance for it and you get better at that type of magic at the cost of other types or your resonance infect your other spells.

Which would work better with Awakening progression of starting without "paradigm" and slowly getting one with order tools, yantras, legacies etc.

>>51722498

>Make hitting your opponent directly almost always a better option than jerking off in your sanctum and killing your opponent from 50 km away.

Jesus christ yes. I really, really wish 'Throw a fucking fireball at him' wasn't such a terrible option.

>>51722422
>For the same reason that using performance enhancing drugs in sports isn't fine. Simply put, it isn't good sportsmanship.
That's bullshit. Dating isn't sportsmanship. The target isn't "win fair and square", the target is get laid. It's like saying "using a calculator to find approximation of irrational solution to equation isn't good sportsmanship". There is no cheating in using good tools to your advantage.

>>51722509
>Hunters
Nothing to worry about here.

>Banishers
They'll target you regardless of what you do, so no reason to deny yourself the pleasures of life.

>even other Pentacle Mages
If they Sleeper-lovers, sure. Otherwise, I highly doubt that Consilium is going to punish you for something like that. Not while they still have to catch this "magical surgeon" Mystagogue, who think vivisection on living Sleepers is key to Supernal mysteries.

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>>51722509
Gotta admit...I'd play this guy. Like Dennis but with magic.

>>51720165
Yeah, because killing in a fit of passion means you didn't think it through. That's certainly more unwise than a carefully laid plan.

>>51722546

Yeah, that looks like a Mind Mage's plan.

>>51722571
It has nothing to do with "wise use of magic", though. Sometimes quickly zapping someone is best possible course given.

>>51722586
Sure it can be, but I would argue that it's still not a wise choice, in the sense of having thought it over and planned it out. It may be the best choice, and maybe the only one, but from the perspective of Wisdom, it's your fault in the first place because you didn't see it coming.

>>51722534
>ignores half of my post
Okay.

Listen, using magic to get laid is sad and pathetic. Not only are you exerting unfair advantages over people who can in no way defend against them, but you're doing it to just fuck them. To use them. Whether you're compensating for your flaws so that you can get with a girl who wouldn't look twice at you normally or magically compelling them directly, it's ridiculously immoral and fucked up. Like drugging girls or getting them drunk while you stay sober. But I guess that's also fine with you, since drugs and alcohol are also tools to be used to your advantage.

>If they're Sleeper-lovers sure
No, not sure. I'm sure plenty of Mages would see it as a gross abuse of the Art, using magic just to satisfy base desires. Again, even if you escaped punishment (again, unlikely, because harming and manipulating Sleepers with magic for no good reason is a crime, see Precept of Hubris) you would be outed as a gross magic sex fiend, essentially ruining your reputation for various reasons.

Fuck you for making me sound like some SJW White Knight you fucking fuck

>>51722644
What's your opinion of a vampire using awe or whatever that glamor power is then

So what the fuck is a Soul-Stone.
Can you stick enough together to make a fully functional soul?

>>51722094
But it's so... Overused!

>>51722707
It's a shard of Gnosis ripped out from your soul, in the shape of an object.

>>51720885
Maybe, kinda, a little bit:
In one VtM Chronicle a Ventrue was from a "known" ancestry line and his grand-sire, who was mentioned in a book as a childer of important Vampire XYZ but not more, showed up once to congratulate him at the end of an arc when the PC accomplished a major Ventrue-related goal.
(Honestly i don't remember the specifics, it has been a few years)

And, only somewhat related, in another Chronicle set in New England i had quite a few cameos of H P Lovecraft Characters, more to amuse myself than anything else. I think they caught one of them...

>>51720885
A few historical characters. Mostly medieval occultists.

>>51722724
Its a fucking OP image for a thread on a cantonese kiddy fiddler BBS, who cares?

>>51722644
>Listen, using magic to get laid is sad and pathetic.
Sorry, but repeating this isn't making this sound any closer to truth. You can said this just about every wish in your life:
>Listen, using magic to get money is sad and pathetic.
>Listen, using magic to get power is sad and pathetic.
>Listen, using magic to get pleasure is sad and pathetic.
>Listen, using magic to understand world is sad and pathetic.
>Listen, using magic to get everything you can get without magic is sad and pathetic.

>Whether you're compensating for your flaws
You are saying this like it is a bad thing. The truth is that everyone has flaws, and not a many people are going to get rid of them. So they compensate for them. If you aren't good-looking, you compensate it with intelligence. If you aren't funny, you compensate with your caring nature, and so on.
Besides, if you can get rid of your flaws, magic or not, it's idiotic not to. It's like saying to disfigured "using magic to make your face look like human again is sad and pathetic, you should just stay freak".

>Like drugging girls or getting them drunk while you stay sober.
Drugging girl is removing her ability to consent. Making yourself look like superstar and to be confident and using telepathy for scanning her surface thoughts to understand her reactions better isn't.

>using magic just to satisfy base desires
Yeeees, and using magic just to satisfy basic curiosity, or thrist for power is totally fine. Because everyone knows that those are never lead to any negative consequences whatsoever.

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>>51722724
>>51721766
Well, i for one really like this OP Image...

>>51722770
That's a good one!

>>51721090
>What are the best fast food places for supernaturals to have meetings in?

IHOP

International House of the Paranormal (and Pancakes)

>>51722765
It is definitely more morally acceptable than vampire blood drugs or Beast lessons

>>51721090
I had the Winter Court running an all-night diner in a 1e game. It was originally designed for Winter only, but eventually grew out to encompass the entire Freehold.

It was a fair business too, because the Winter King knew that the moment people stopped trusting it, they would no longer know who met whom.
So they were fine not knowing WHAT they talked about.

>>51722291
definitely

>>51722846
Because you can actually make yourself better, not mind-rape others into accepting you. Note that nobody objects to make yourself beautiful with Life magic, but somehow making yourself smarter and more charismatic with Mind is big no-no.

>>51719802
Why are Mage players so obsessed with kewl powers, and how can we help them overcome their childhood traumas that led them to need to play a splat that has more kewl powers than the rest?

>>51722903
Because Mage is Power Fantasy: The Game. It is supposed to explore why too much power isn't as good as it sounds like, but it fails at that, because people don't like for such things as "responsibility" and "consequences" to disturb their power fantasy.

>>51722919
>implying too much power is not good
Hubris is a coward's word, Anon

>>51722765
>using magic for other things
Is not my concern. And did you seriously try to equate one night stands with getting riches, power, and knowledge?

>You are saying this like it is a bad thing
It is. What's more, any Mastigos wouldn't have this approach, since their whole thing is flensing flaws and weaknesses. Improving them, not just using magic to compensate for them. In fact relying too much on magic could also be construed as a weakness.

>So they compensate for them. If you aren't good-looking, you compensate it with intelligence. If you aren't funny, you compensate with your caring nature, and so on.
Right, but the thing is those compensations are natural and honestly come by, and they aren't used to make flaws go away for the duration of a spell. A person could still see you as you really are and have natural reactions, as opposed to seeing whatever front you've put up for them to react to.

>Besides, if you can get rid of your flaws, magic or not, it's idiotic not to.
Getting rid of flaws naturally is good. That's called "growing". Getting rid of them with magic is a grey zone, the tone of which is defined by your intent. If your intent is to make yourself a walking sex-machine, it's disingenuous and sleazy. If you're doing it to be normal, it's understandable, if creating an unhealthy dependence on your magic.

>Making yourself look like superstar and to be confident and using telepathy for scanning her surface thoughts to understand her reactions better isn't.
Are you seriously trying to tell me that lying, manipulating, and invading privacy to get someone to fuck you is an acceptable use of magic? When they have no chance of denying you? You do realize that we are talking about people here, right? What the fuck is wrong with you?

>magic for curiosity and power
Not the same thing at all, because there's more ways to do it than to lie or manipulate.

And a reminder that what you think is okay to do is literally against the Lex Magica.

>>51722919
The whole thing about "consequences and responsibility" would sort of make sense if mages tended to cast incredibly powerful spells with massive changes all the time (like if there were only archmage powers and no normal ones), but mages are still better off doing simple covert stuff than "well I forgot my shotgun at home so I'd better create 500 of them and leave them laying around" type shit. STs have better shit to do than Monkey Pawing every fuckin detection spell around.

>>51722698
Vampires are predators by nature. Mages are human at the end of the day. A vampire can't be held to the same standards, although they can still be held responsible.

>>51722885
Intent is a big factor here. Using Life or Mind magic to dupe people into fucking you is sad either way, and many Mages would see it as an abuse of power.

Using them to make yourself stronger and smarter on top of natural training is fine, because the end goal there is to better yourself, not to trick people into your bed.

>>51722964
On the other hand most vampires will be good at social interactions even without their powers. Unless you are a nosferatu or you were embraced for a specific talent you probably know how to get laid even without resorting to vampiric powers.

In this example it looks like we have socially awkward mage that has to use those powers to get by.

>>51722952
>And did you seriously try to equate one night stands with getting riches, power, and knowledge?
No real difference, except target, which is pleasure in this case.

>the whole argument that removing flaws by "natural" means is somehow better
It isn't. Magic is natural, and using it to

>Are you seriously trying to tell me that lying, manipulating
Get off this high horse you climbed onto. Lying and manipulating is part of life, and more precisely - part of dating process. Just try to be completely honest with any unknown person and see how fast they start to go in opposite direction from you.

>When they have no chance of denying you?
Of course they have a chance to deny my. If I am reading in thoughts of girl "he should just fuck off, I am not open for this night", there isn't much you can do without changing her intentions magically, which is wrong in most cases. But there is a whole lot of girls who want to have sex with sufficiently hot person, and with magic, you can be one. You don't create new desires in them - you just exploit existing one.

>And a reminder that what you think is okay to do is literally against the Lex Magica.
Prove it.

>>51723020
So becoming better is fine, but using your advantage is bad? What's the point of becoming better then?

>>51723059
>and using it to become better is natural too.

I can't believe that magefags are all rapists

actually wait that's very easy to believe

>>51723083
Well, they aren't that different from vampirefags in that regard. Vampires are rapists on steroids.

>>51723059
>So becoming better is fine, but using your advantage is bad? What's the point of becoming better then?
Getting buff to impress the ladies is fine, getting strong so you can hold them down and rape them isn't.

Simple enough for you?

>>51723122
Yes. So by your own analogy, mind controlling them into sex isn't fine, but make yourself charming and charismatic is fine. Which is what I am talking about.

>>51723137
Its still scummy, but alright.
If people like your for X, then getting X magically isn't that bad.

>>51723083
Considering that the Magefags are vampire fans who are sitting about making made-up and wildly inaccurate shitposts to make up for their inadequacies? Yeah. Rapist sounds pretty close.

>>51723059
>No real difference, except target, which is pleasure in this case.
Your target is people. Use magic to create an ultra realistic sex doll and I won't care.

>It isn't. Magic is natural, and using it to
Magic is supernatural. And yes, removing flaws without it is better, because that would mean you worked for it and earned it and are a truly better person for it. Using magic to do it is like putting a cheat code into the universe to make people think you're funny until a timer runs out. And finally when you reach as far as you can go naturally, you can push yourself further with magic. Lots of martial and mental legacies have that philosophy.

>Lying and manipulating is part of life
And also still immoral. And withholding information is different than wholesale deception and manipulation.

>Of course they have a chance to deny me
Yeah, if they're dead set on not fucking, in which case they shouldn't be out at a bar. But since most people are there to hook up, chances are they will succumb to your supernatural looks and charm, especially since you're reading their thoughts so that you know just what to say, you lying, privacy invading creep.

>Prove it
"The Precept of Hubris: Frowns upon mages who use magic to manipulate or harm others without good reason." Awakening 2e, p. 69 (fitting)
That is a Precept, which means it's a law found in nearly every Consilium. And I'm pretty sure that making yourself supernaturally persuasive, hot, and oh yeah READING MINDS to get people to fuck you would be considered manipulation for no good reason.

>>51723137
I wouldn't say it's fine, although I would say it isn't rape. Just pathetic that you can't get girls on your own.

How does dodging work? Near as I can figure the math, there's no advantage, you're just wasting your action.

>>51723187
>Using magic to do it is like putting a cheat code into the universe to make people think you're funny until a timer runs out
A cheat code you worked hard at. Much like that one guy's abs, and the other guy's game.

>>51723207
Isn't this part of the hubris and power theme thou? That all this awesome power can go to some petty asshole without any real moral backbone to support him? So he would start making sport cars, brain washing women into sex and such acts?

Thou there is potential for Guardian of the Veil Obrimos who goes around bitchslapping people who act this way.

>>51723241
Dodging is essentially higher risk, higher reward.
Normally you just subtract Defense from the attacker's dice pool.
With Dodging you take twice your Defense, and roll it as a counter-pool.

You could roll nothing on your Dodge, and fuck up horribly and their attack goes through fine. Or you could roll fantastically and they completely miss when they might otherwise have gotten a few good licks in.

Also Mage Armour has a few activatable abilities which only work if you've Dodged an attack. Mind can apply Beaten Down, and Space can redirect the attack at someone else with automatic (auto-fucking-matic) hits equal to Space dots, thus ignoring the other guy's Defense completely.

>>51723242
Makes it worse, really. That you worked for all that power just to abuse it.

>>51723187
>Your target is people.
So? If your target is getting power and riches, your target is also people.

>because that would mean you worked for it and earned it and are a truly better person for it
Yeah, and you don't have to work hard and long to make you magic better. There is no difference between making yourself better at charming girls and making yourself better at Mind magic to charm girls. Except you can use Mind magic for other things.

>And also still immoral.
Only if your morality includes constantly suffering for your total honesty all the time. Which is fine, I guess, as long as your aren't trying to make everybody else suffer the same way.

>But since most people are there to hook up, chances are they will succumb to your supernatural looks and charm
And exactly how is this different from getting your chances up with makeup, good manners, cool sportcar and being funny and laidback?

>Frowns upon mages who use magic to manipulate or harm others without good reason
You see, there is this funny thing: everybody has good reason. Desire to fuck as good reason as any. Certainly not worse than doing the same to protect some magical secret or leading people to bright future.

>>51723255
Sounds like a perfect canditate for the Seers of the Throne to me.

>>51723255
Yeah, that is the theme. That you'll start losing empathy and instead of asking "Why should I do this?" you'll be asking "What's stopping me?".

>>51723276
Who the fuck are you to tell someone what's an "abuse" of their powers?
And what, to grant themselves the social skills to make themselves likeable is abuse?
Fuck you buddy, you sad sack of shit. I bet you think people shouldn't weak makeup, dress up nice, or have prosthetic limbs.

>>51723311
t. rapist

>>51723287
Seer wouldn't crack down on his own for abusing power against sleepers. At least some of the order mages would

>>51723321
Everyone, the modern man: making yourself more likeable is rape!

>>51723321
Dig around in someone's brain to make them want to fuck you against all evidence to the contrary and their actual personality? Yep that's rape.

Enhance your own social skills with Magic to such a level that women like being around you, find you charming, cute, endearing, and of their own free will want to go and have mutually enjoyable, entirely consensual sexual relations with you? Not rape, no matter how you spin it.

>>51723311
I honestly can't tell if you are "in character", so to speak, or if you honestly believe the bs you are spewing...

>>51723340
>>51723349
>defending rape

>>51723332
No, but they would get pissy that their newest pawn is putting itself in stupid risk.

And then teach him how to do exactly what he's doing, but smartly. So he doesn't get caught.

>>51723353
You're an ugly motherfucker. So you dress up nice.
People don't like to be around you. So you buy them drinks.
You've a bad personality, so you don't talk much.
You're socially awkward, you enchant yourself so you're not.

Same thing.

>>51723354
i wasn't aware betas this neutered actually existed

>>51723353
Ironically, I feel the exact same way. I just don't understand how you can call buffing your own social stats mind control.

>>51722644
>Not only are you exerting unfair advantages over people who can in no way defend against them, but you're doing it to just fuck them.

Thats not true the capacity of awaken is present in all humanity, is not the mage fault that sexy sleeper is too much of a sheep to awaken. Thats the exact same as saying that having charisma is an unfair advantage.

Worse eve, the guy with charisma/look is just good genes, you have to work to learn to use your magic to get pussy. You blasted the gods and defy elder gods just for your right to get pussy....and magic.

this message was brought to you by the silver ladder.

>>51723385
Keep on justify your rape, rapist

>>51723349
Okay, but does digging around in someone's brain to understand their wishes count? As long as you don't alter them in any way and just using them to adapt to whatever your possible partner wishes to experience.

>>51723311

Those are all pretty different from "I just magic'd my problems away".

Once someone Awakens, it's not that hard to learn magic, especially in one's own Path. A Mage left to their own devices could get to 2 or 3 in a few Arcana easy, it's just the higher levels and the soul shaping nature of Legacies that take real work.

>>51723368

Two are actual attempts to improve or manage flaws, the other is erasing them entirely using your supernatural cosmic advantage using levels that actually come pretty naturally so it's not like you need to put much effort into it.

Not the same thing.

>>51722952
Getting rid of flaws naturally is good. That's called "growing". Getting rid of them with makeup is a grey zone, the tone of which is defined by your intent. If your intent is to make yourself a walking sex-machine, it's disingenuous and sleazy. If you're doing it to be normal, it's understandable, if creating an unhealthy dependence on your makeup.
And plastic surgery is absolutely haram unless you are burn victim, right?

>>51723404
As long as the target is allowed to make the decision of their own free will its not rape. Pulling memories out of a girls head to find out if she has daddy issues isnt rape. A lot of people would consider it cheating, but the game of casual sex has no rules about this particular topic.

>>51723409
You do understand that entire human technology is way to do things easier, without putting that much effort in them, right? I bet you kill your food with your bare hands. You know, to EARN it.

>>51723368
Yeah, but with magic its more like spending way to much money:
You're an ugly motherfucker. So you buy the most expensive clothes.
People don't like to be around you. So you buy stuff for those that stick around anyway.

I'm not saying its wrong, but its pathetic.

>>51723390
I am not saying that magically improving yourself = raep , just that ist scummy and pathetic.

>>51723280
>your target is also people.
Not really. If you want money you can just transmute gold or make perfect copies of the money you already have. Magic is power, so you already have that. Manipulating people for political power is also bad, and dangerous.

>magic takes work too
It does, yeah, but there is no growth involved. No real improvement of yourself as a person. In fact relying on magic for everything is actually kind of the opposite of growth. It's not meant to be a replacement for who you really are, although you seem to think it is.

>your morality
My morality is simple:
Don't lie to get girls to fuck me. Don't invade their privacy to get them to fuck me. Don't use crutches when I can work to grow as a person. I don't see how that makes me or anybody else suffer. You, on the other hand, would suffer immensely from the huge sense of entitlement that instant gratification brings, as well as stunted emotional growth from letting magic provide your personality for you.

>And exactly how is this different from getting your chances up with makeup, good manners, cool sportcar and being funny and laidback?
Sleepers can use make up, and they can see when it's being used. Good manners shouldn't have to be provided with magic. Cool sports cars are also a trick that Sleepers can see through, since cars are commonly used as compensation. Being funny and laidback is also fine if they are your natural traits and not just a front to trick them.

>Desire to fuck as good a reason as any
It literally is not, and you wouldn't need magic to do it. That's what would get you in trouble, using magic for it, even though you would be regarded as a creep too. You would be told to find prostitutes if you want to fuck so badly, and you would be punished for using magic to manipulate others into fucking you.

You fucking creep.

>>51723368
Oddly, this is mostly true.
Look, we all use different means to woo and court.
However, those ways still allow the other party to actively choose how they regard you, rather than forcibly changing their mind to something that favors you.

So how would you guys nerf mage the awakening so it isnt the power fantasy that it is considered to be?

>>51723436
But he's not talking about forcibly changing a girls mind, he's talking about making himself look better than he is. Her mind isnt forcibly changed she's just suckered in by a lie that she believes.

The girl can still say no. Freedom of choice is still in effect.

>>51723436
How many times does it need to be stated we are not talking about mind control but buffing one's own stats?

>>51723404
Digging around in someone's brain, even without changing anything is a massive invasion of privacy. Even if you're just doing it to find out, say, their favorite drink, that's still fucked up.

That being said, using Time to determine which drink they'd appreciate most is... Better?

>>51723409
So basically you're saying "you should never use Magic to compensate for your flaws, because that's not what it's for". Okay, good, now that I understand what you're saying, I can completely disregard your moronic opinion.

>>51723424
>And plastic surgery is absolutely haram unless you are burn victim, right?
No, just kind of weird and sad. I mean you can make yourself look better just by taking care of your body and putting effort into how you present yourself. Plastic surgery is an extreme solution for extreme cases.

>>51723272
And that's worth your action that turn?

>>51723443
By making people deal with the consequences of their actions, and ensure that they're not the only fucking Mage in the world.

They might be Disciples of an Arcanum or perhaps two.
But there are Adepts and Masters out there who also have vested interests.

>>51723435
>It literally is not, and you wouldn't need magic to do it. That's what would get you in trouble, using magic for it, even though you would be regarded as a creep too. You would be told to find prostitutes if you want to fuck so badly, and you would be punished for using magic to manipulate others into fucking you.

The mages in your setting really dont have anything better to do? Abyss horrors, Seers, hunters, the mad, tremere, timori...... but drops all of that to police a dude who makes himself more acceptable to fuck?

i am not saying he wouldnt get the stink eye from some but your mages sound like the most boring bunch.

>>51723471
>I mean you can make yourself look better just by taking care of your body and putting effort into how you present yourself.
Or I can just snap my fingers and let magic handle it. Why put in effort?

>>51723471
>No, just kind of weird and sad. I mean you can make yourself look better just by taking care of your body and putting effort into how you present yourself. Plastic surgery is an extreme solution for extreme cases.

spoken like a true pleb. If you have the money to fix your shitty genes is your responsability to do so. TRANSHUMANISM!

>>51723478
When the alternative is eating a chainsaw to the face or woofer claws to the gut?
Certainly.

>>51723471
>No, just kind of weird and sad. I mean you can make yourself look better just by taking care of your body and putting effort into how you present yourself. Plastic surgery is an extreme solution for extreme cases.

All the exercise in the world is not gonna give me bigger boobs so you argument fail.

>>51723435
>If you want money you can just transmute gold or make perfect copies of the money you already have.
You do understand that those acts can potentially inflict a lot more harm on people than seducing one girl to bed, right?

>Manipulating people for political power is also bad, and dangerous.
At this point, I honestly starting to worry that you are, in fact, an idiot. It isn't political power until you can get things your way, and you can't get political power without manipulating people.

>No real improvement of yourself as a person.
What is real improvement? And how is using magic is not a real improvement? Because magic can be taken away? Guess what - your so called "real improvement" can be just as easy taken from you by one unfortunate accident crushing your spine or damaging your brain.

>Being funny and laidback is also fine if they are your natural traits and not just a front to trick them.
So if I am not "naturally" funny and laidback, I am obliged to act like a dick for the rest of my life? I can't even fake being funny and laidback, because this is bad now. So much for "real improvement".

>It literally is not
Don't see much argument from your side, except "you can't do it, that's not fair!".

>You fucking creep.
And you are fucking sheep.

>>51722770
Talking about OP image, did someone have/have the link of the one with werewolf ( I think, dont' remember the pic exactly) behind a blong girl with a sword ? The art was good, want to find the artist.

>>51723456
>That being said, using Time to determine which drink they'd appreciate most is... Better?
>better
>exact same means
>exact same result

Deep down, in your heart, you know this is bullshit.

>>51723454
>>51723449
Buffing your stats, unless one of those stats is Appearance, doesn't make you look better, it increases your appeal and your aptitude to socializing.
And really, it's how your socialize that wins in casual hook ups. You won't get far just by looking good if you are a dude (which is what you are talking about, because this discussion wouldn't be happening if the mage in question was female, despite this being a actual thing in other settings with magic).

>>51723485
Actually in my setting he would probably be handled vigilante style, if a Mage caught him and it bothered them, since the Consilium doesn't believe in handling every single complaint (unlike the weak Sleeper authorities) when they have to handle the things you listed.

What I'm trying to prove is that what he thinks is okay is commonly regarded as illegal in the general setting.

File: the bogs.jpg (108KB, 950x633px) Image search: [Google]

108KB, 950x633px

>>51723424
And plastic surgery is absolutely haram unless you are burn victim, right?
Or if you're angels disguising yourself as twin french physicists

>>51723530
Not really the same exact means.

Using Divination or rewinding time after asking her is better than rooting through her brain.

>>51723536
Or you can make yourself smarter and more empathetic, so you better understand what she wants and what she is going to do, up to the point you literally know her reactions better than she does. Is this a mind control?

>>51723530
If by means you mean Magic? Yes.
If by means you mean mind-reading v.s. temporal predictions? No.

Same thing is said in the Acts of Hubris section.
Two Mages with exactly the same Wisdom could cast exactly the same spell on exactly the same person to get exactly the same factual result. But one could suffer an Act of Hubris and the other could not, because of the reasons for casting the spell.

>>51723564
>>51723565
Okay. Is using Prophecy or Fate magic to make her destiny is to sleep with you better?

File: 1418108242867.png (368KB, 855x547px) Image search: [Google]

368KB, 855x547px

>>51723527
No, sorry, but have my other favorite OP image...

File: Intersections in Real Time.jpg (43KB, 500x283px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 500x283px

>>51723565
Technically everything is Mind Control.
Me calling people a brainless shitcunt is making them act in certain ways, potentially against their will.

Is that Mind Control?
Very interesting episode of Babylon 5 about that.

File: 3.gif (3MB, 256x199px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 256x199px

I think WoD is the only setting I prefer vampires to wizards

>>51723578
That's enforcing a destiny you have decided upon a probably unwilling and certainly unwitting individual.

Pretty Hubristic.

>>51723429

Magic isn't technology. It's a lucky pull on the cosmic lottery that you can make into more of a windfall if you want, but you don't necessarily have to. It just so happens that the deck is stacked towards folks that want more.

>>51723456

Oh, you can use it to do that. It's just that if you're doing it for something that you can do just as well on your own, you're going to take a ding on the Wisdom meter, if you're high enough on it to do so. If you don't mind that or if your Wisdom's low enough so that you won't care, it's all good.

Some usages of Magic aren't going to be all that Wise. Seek the Imperial Mysteries if you want to change it so that it's not.

In what women want Mel Gibson used telepathy to listen in on the minds of women to fix his life. Was it wrong for him to do so? If no then I dont see how listening in on the minds of women for other advantages is wrong either. Nobody is being mind controlled or losing their free will.

>>51723595
WoD is one of the few settings where i like vampires at all, to be honest.

>There are mages who aren't egoists
It's like you have the power of gods and don't even want to use it.

>>51723591
>Technically everything is Mind Control.
That's exactly my point. People naturally manipulate each other, and there is nothing bad in using your advantage in this. Having Persuasion 10 is as much mind control as anything, but we don't treat it as such... are we?

>>51722534
>"magical surgeon" Mystagogue, who thinks vivisection on living Sleepers is key to Supernal mysteries.

It's not?

The screams reveal the Truth!

>>51723629
>Magic isn't technology.
That's not excusing you. Stop making shortcuts and earn your living by killing your food and building your own house with bare hands.

>>51723632

>In this romantic comedy film it was ethical

I get what you're saying but I don't think that really works as evidence for an Urban Fantasy Horror setting.

>>51723516
>You do understand that those acts can potentially inflict a lot more harm on people than seducing one girl to bed, right?
How?

>political power
What I meant was magically manipulation, and it's dangerous because there are other Mages invested in the political scene, usually Seers.

>What is real improvement
Working out, going to therapy, etc.
>And how is using magic not a real improvement
Because it's temporary, and not an improvement you worked hard to gain for yourself, and relying on magic too much is unwise (and unWise) and unhealthy.
>bad luck
Yep, it can happen. Doesn't change anything.

>So if I am not "naturally" funny and laidback, I am obliged to act like a dick for the rest of my life?
Or you could make yourself smarter and wittier naturally be reading books, and you could get rid of that anger by working it out in therapy.

>Don't see much argument from your side
If you want to fuck, you don't need magic to do it. You don't need to use magic to manipulate people. Doing it just because you can is Hubris, and that's what the fucking law covers. "Precept of Hubris".

>You are fucking sheep
I'd rather be a sheep than the kind of person who wants to cheat and skip my way through life, never bettering myself and lying and invading privacy just to get girls on my dick. Fucking prostitutes is more respectable than that.

>>51723662
>The screams reveal the Truth!
So is cosmic, mind-blowing, Life-enhanced hot sex.

I´m reposting this because it got mostly ignored in the last thread:

Hello, I´m soon going to play my first werewolf game (oWoD), I´m familiar with the setting because I played other games, especially Vampire. I would like an opinion on this character I had in mind.
I wanted to create an introvert and really shy character, that is manly a bookworm, but with a vast knowledge of Law and Medicine as well as Occult and Ritualistic Knowledge.
So I choose to create a Metis Philodox that joined the Stargazer really recently.

The background so far is like this:

Famed member of the Black Furies is "dating" with a Glass Walker because of his smirk attitude and because no matter the opposites they seem to get really along. They do the mistake to conceive that horror dunno if on purpose or not, and after the Society was done with the parents (Father was forced to change city, Mother went on the run and is missing since) the fight went over his custody. The Furies wanted him for his value as an oracle, The GW just to increase their number, in the end the Furies won the struggle thanks to the intervention of a Stargazer judge, that decided that he would be in custody for the Furies, but he/she would personally take care of him. While being in Crinos form, he spent entire days listening to his mentor reading books, and when he was able to transform he was so happy to be able to finally hold a book with his hands that he spent an entire year keeping on reading on his own.
Due to his Metis nature he feels to demonstrate to be a valid member of the werewolf society by trying to be useful with his knowledge, and he is always fearing of failing and that everybody would think badly of him. He is also struggling with his predatory nature (he even has Mark of the predator as a flaw to make him cry when bunnies will try to flee from him)
My GM said that his choice of not going with the Furies will make him really hated by them, but I thing it will make the character more interesting.

>werewolves aren't the apex sexual predator
Why is this allowed

>>51723713
TAKE
THE
KNOT

>>51723506
Drink beer if you want bigger boobs.

>>51723686
>How?
You'd have to kill or mind-rape those federal agents who will come looking for source of perfect counterfeits, for starters.

>What I meant was magically manipulation
So, lying, manipulating and blackmailing, all natural parts of gaining political power is fine, as long as you don't use magic for them? That's strange morale you got here.

>Because it's temporary
Muscles and mind are temporary, too. You do know they are going to fail you in an old age?

>and not an improvement you worked hard to gain for yourself
You have to work pretty hard to have a strong magic.

>Or you could make yourself smarter and wittier naturally be reading books
You are funny. You really think that'll make you smarter? Protip: it really doesn't, and it won't help you get laid one bit.

>If you want to fuck, you don't need magic to do it. You don't need to use magic to manipulate people.
Of course you don't. But it's easier with it, so no reason not to use it.

>I'd rather be a sheep than the kind of person who wants to cheat and skip my way through life, never bettering myself and lying and invading privacy just to get girls on my dick.
Well, that's your call. Just don't call it "universal wisdom" or something like that, because it's only that - your personal choice.

Werewolvea are no longer pathalogically monogamous like 1e? No longer "mate for life" like many apex predators?

>>51723581
>tfw when life is suffering.

>>51723704
I like it, and just a heads up your ST is totally going to bring back your Black Fury mom for drama.

>>51723632
>Was it wrong for him to do so?
He also couldn't turn it off, and he didn't abuse it nearly as hard as this thread is suggesting.
He also wanted it gone the entire time. It was NOT a boon for him, it was a curse.

>>51720885
In my group one guy put Beckett as a passerby turist and Goratrix as a spirit that was able to communicate with a player, he was kind of a nice person.

>>51723675

Magic isn't technology. It isn't "real" work like hunting and building a house is. It isn't even a shortcut, because shortcuts have to play by the rules of reality. A Mage doesn't have to do even that.

Magic isn't a skill in the traditional sense. It's not something you earn and get better at, it's something that falls out of the cosmic slot machine, and you can improve it if you'd like. Comparing it to fashion, cosmetics, or traditional social skill doesn't work because any human in theory could develop those. Even with a basic idea of how to stack the deck, an Awakening is still a crapshoot.

Even then, you can do anything with Magic, but not everything that can be done with Magic is Wise, and you will be judged for it, either by your peers or by the system itself. Nothing will stop you from doing it, but you're still going to have to roll for the breaking point, should you need one. Don't want to do that? Take the way regular people go, or seek the Imperial Mysteries to change the nature of Wisdom. Or just do it anyway, you'll probably succeed the roll, or you might not even need one if you're slinging Magic all willy-nilly.

>>51723691
>The screams reveal the Truth!
>So is cosmic, mind-blowing, Life-enhanced hot sex.

These options are not mutually exclusive.

In fact, could a mage ask for a better aphrodisiac than the pitiful screams of sleepers?

#MysteriumSupremacy

>>51723762
>You'd have to kill or mind-rape those federal agents who will come looking for source of perfect counterfeits, for starters.
I didn't mean make a whole magical large scale operation, and selling gold that you "found" is fine too, along with other precious stones and minerals that you can fence. You aren't hurting anybody.

>So, lying, manipulating and blackmailing, all natural parts of gaining political power is fine, as long as you don't use magic for them? That's strange morale you got here.
Yes, because you're on the same playing field.

>Muscles and mind are temporary, too. You do know they are going to fail you in an old age?
They last longer than spells. At least I won't have to keep recasting just to escape my dull mind and pathetic body. Not to mention that other Mages won't have to see all the spells floating around in my pattern and know that I'm compensating.

>You have to work pretty hard to have a strong magic.
Not if it's on your Path, and mental augmentation and mind reading is Disciple level. Not hard to achieve.

>You are funny. You really think that'll make you smarter? Protip: it really doesn't, and it won't help you get laid one bit.
Except it does. Reading does help your brain, and didn't you say being funny helps you get laid? Wit is humor too. Although I'm not saying your average book nerd will get laid just by reading enough.

>Of course you don't. But it's easier with it, so no reason not to use it.
>[hubris intensifies]

>your personal choice
Which by most moral authorities, including the Lex Magica, is preferable to your personal choice of being a compensating, deceitful, invasive, pick-up artist who will never grow as a person.

Girl is strong in her convictions to wait for marraige before sex. What spells can I cast to seduce her?

>>51723924
First Impressions and Emotional Urging.

>>51722765
anon the reasoning is simple enough, the morality system as well as the paradox are meant for you to not abuse the magic system too much.

Of course you are a cool mage that can do basically everything, but as a low fantasy/urban fantasy setting you are not supposed to use magic everything, like cleaning up your nostrils.

About the sleeping with a girl matter, WoD is a dark place, vampires often charm their victim into following them because they need to feed, they don´t even enjoy sex.

A mage is still a human, and by so he is controlled by his human nature, so I guess a really vain mage tried many times to sleep with girls using his power the first time period when he was Awakened, then I guess he naturally lost interest in that and just focused his powers on something else, but this depends of course by the nature of the character you are playing, so a vane mage that is still entitled by sex exist, and if he does so many others do, so as well mages that don´t like certain uses of magic, by being different, conflict arise and we can interesting games.

Mage was a mistake.

>>51723901
>I didn't mean make a whole magical large scale operation
And yet that is exactly what "your target is riches" mean.

>and selling gold that you "found" is fine too, along with other precious stones and minerals that you can fence. You aren't hurting anybody
You aren't just idiotic, you are naive too. Do you really think that you can just "find" gold and gems indefinitely, without curious people and Seers finding you to find source of all those gems and gold?

>Yes, because you're on the same playing field.
And yet we come around to ask once more: how is using your innate talents (intelligence) for example is different from using your innate ability for magic to gain political power?

>They last longer than spells.
Spells can be made last indefinitely. Also, there is nothing wrong with recasting them again and again, just as there is nothing wrong with training to keep your muscle and smarts.

>Reading does help your brain
You know more if you read books. But this tsn't the same thing as making yourself smarter.

>didn't you say being funny helps you get laid
You can't become funny by reading enough books. It doesn't work this way.

>[hubris intensifies]
Taking the easy path isn't nessesarily hubris.

>Which by most moral authorities, including the Lex Magica, is preferable
Keep telling yourself that while your so-called "moral authorities" literally rend reality for their petty games of power. My desire to get laid, at most, can ruin a girl's evening; desire to find absolute cosmic power can ruin a humanity.

>>51723987
Vampires can totally enjoy sex now, anon. They dropped that and the emotionally dead stuff for Requiem 2e.

>>51723987
>the morality system as well as the paradox are meant for you to not abuse the magic system too much
Except for the part there you can easily prevent or ignore both.

>you are not supposed to use magic everything
Well, try and stop me, because you totally can use magic to solve most of your problems, and there is no reason not to.

>>51723924
Wisdom Sin?

>>51723924
Fate magic, to ensure your wedding. After that, Time magic, to remove this timeline.

>>51724014
And good thing they did

And that's why I don't play Mage: it inevitably creates an arguments about Wisdom from power-hungry mage players with knack for rationalization their horrible acts.

>>51724011
>And yet that is exactly what "your target is riches" mean.
Not really. Never running out of the cash you have is riches too.

>You aren't just idiotic, you are naive too. Do you really think that you can just "find" gold and gems indefinitely, without curious people and Seers finding you to find source of all those gems and gold?
No, but I don't think Sleepers could find me and I don't think Seers would care all that much. What you think I'm just going to take a lump of gold embedded with diamonds to a pawn shop? You think I'm going to use my real identity or my main shadow identity for this?

>And yet we come around to ask once more: how is using your innate talents (intelligence) for example is different from using your innate ability for magic to gain political power?
Because it's punching down, you tool. You are literally just using magic to steamroll your way through on the fast track to too much power. Mages won't like that, and they will stop you. So not only is it immoral and an act of Hubris, it's stupid.

>Spells can be made to last indefinitely
Even augmentations to yourself? Where is that said?
>Also, there is nothing wrong with recasting them again and again, just as there is nothing wrong with training to keep your muscle and smarts.
Again, not wrong, just sad that you won't improve yourself and want to use your magic for everything, which is also Hubris. The intent is what's more important here, as already stated. And trying to put up a false front to get people in your bed is actually messed up.

>You know more if you read books. But this tsn't the same thing as making yourself smarter.
It is though. Reading doesn't just help you know stuff, it also helps your cognitive functions.

>Taking the easy path isn't nessesarily hubris.
It literally is. Read the Acts of Hubris examples in the book.

>just because something else is worse means I'm not bad
The kind of thin justification I would expect from someone like you.

>>51723606
What about making your own destiny to sleep with her?

>>51723762
>You'd have to kill or mind-rape those federal agents who will come looking for source of perfect counterfeits, for starters.
Just make $1 bills look like $100 ones, pay in casino which mafia uses for money laundering, in one day they will revert to original.

>>51723924
>Girl
>strong in convictions
pick one

>>51724131
Don't such moral dilemmas just make for better game.

>>51723730
Now I'm curious if you could stealth into an NPC's place, begin molesting them while they sleep then switch and cause them lunacy/delerium and make then believe it was all a horrible nightmare

>>51724152
>Never running out of the cash you have is riches too.
You are going to run out of cash pretty soon. All those villas won't buy themselves.

>You think I'm going to use my real identity or my main shadow identity for this?
You think you are untraceable? Such hubris.

>So not only is it immoral and an act of Hubris, it's stupid.
Not more stupid than casual lying, manipulating, blackmailing and backstabbing. Which are all parts of gaining political power.

>Even augmentations to yourself? Where is that said?
In the rulebook. Read it. Spells can be made in Indefinite duration on living targets in 2e.

>just sad that you won't improve yourself
Literally the same thing as physical and mental training. You need to train, you need to keep it.

>And trying to put up a false front to get people in your bed is actually messed up.
It's actually the way everyone does it. Because not all people are naturally likeable, you know.

>It is though. Reading doesn't just help you know stuff, it also helps your cognitive functions.
It helps, but it doesn't develop them. You can't raise your IQ by reading enough books and you can't become better at solving all problems by it.

>The kind of thin justification I would expect from someone like you.
Justification is simple - I want it, I don't intent to harm her and I am not changing her basic intents and wishes. Everything else is fair game.

>>51724157
>Don't such moral dilemmas just make for better game.
Not really, you inevitably get an Hubristic asshole as >>51724011 and preaching idiot as >>51724152 and watch them tearing the game up.

>>51724302
Don't worry about it, I'm giving up. His Wisdom is too low for him to see how messed up he is.

>>51724383
Doesn't make you any less of an idiot for seriously regarding magic as an "unfair advantage". It isn't more or less unfair than being only being only person with vision is unfair to the blind he is surrounded with.

>>51724417
>It isn't more or less unfair than being only being only person with vision is unfair to the blind he is surrounded with.
That actually sounds pretty unfair.

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>Its another "mage supremacists ruin a thread with their dickwaving" episode

>>51724438
It's isn't. People are different.

>>51723478

You could use a (Space, Mind, Fate, Time, probably more) spell to give yourself the Rote quality on dodge rolls. It becomes less of a gamble and more of a tactical decision.

>>51724131
That's half the appeal/horror of it. Gives you a different perspective of your social circle that's for damn sure.

>>51724622
I rarely play with people I know.

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>robing chicks of agency to get laid
Jesus Christ can we like not turn our power fantasy game into a rapey magical realm

>>51724659

>>51723449

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Housewife Acanthus. Make home cooked meals for cabal. Word got out now Local Caucus and Conselium come to taste my food. They call it a Supernal Mystery. They constantly use Mage sight on my food hoping to see reveal something. Now the Heirarch is coming to visit to have a taste. What should I do? It's just regular home made meal taught to me by my mom passed down to my grandma.

>>51719854
WHY DOES SHE SHOW UP EVERY TIME I VISIT?!??

>>51724659
Have you seriously never encountered this shit in a game before? That awkward dude with the leather duster and long nails that always plays a Toreador and trys to seduce everything with a pulse?

>literal madewank
This is almost as bad as the guy who kept claiming vampires aren't a rape metaphor

>>51724509
Well yeah, but come on. Having sight while everyone else is blind is a pretty extreme example of that.

If you were to say that somebody else has better genes than me and is therefore more attractive and prone to put on muscle, that wouldn't be unfair.

>>51724685
He's also reading minds though too.

A horrible invasion of privacy, perhaps the worst kind.

>>51724686
Embrace it. Become "The Awakened Chef". All your ingredients are rich with tass, cooked with a stove of aperion upon perfected fire, a kitchen that is a demesne dedicated to crafting meals, and each dish is passed briefly through twilight to bring out it's platonic ideal.

Each meal is a revelation restoring willpower and mana. Eventually you will ascend and become the symbol of home and hearth.

>>51724777
>magic trips
And so it must be.

Change your shadow name to Hestia and make Ascension your goal.

>>51724804
>>51724777

But my husband and kids...

>>51724686
Is being the platonic ideal of housewife a worthy Obsession?

Hey I'm looking to find a Mage 2e game online. While I like my RP group, I want to try new playstyles from other players and ST styles. Can anyone help me?

>>51724131

Its more that wisdom is a shitty mechanic. Poorly created in 1st edition and not fixed in 2nd.

>>51724823
Necessary sacrifices.

You must widen your scope to become the housewife and mother of the entire world, not just one measly family.

This is your destiny.

>>51724686
>Recipe passed down from mother to daughter to grandmother
Freaking Ancathus

http://www.strawpoll.me/12338085

>>51725007
Well, i think its more a 'It's always Sunny in Philadelphia' than 90s sitcom thing.

Dennis straight up mind-controls the Chicks.
Frank makes himself look better, but fails because he can't fix his personality.
Mac improves him self, but gives it a few 'test-runs' at a gay bar, just to see if it works.
Dee gets laid in the background throughout the whole episode, but only because shes an easy lay, not because of her magic. which she only used to fix something unimportant, like her stork-like feet or hairy arms or something.
Charly meanwhile tries for the Waitress, but fails spectacularly.

>>51719802
>If you could, would you rewrite mage and how?

Make it like Unknown Armies

I don't understand all the rape-related discussion concerning the use of magic and sex.

It's the bestowal of a great honor upon sleepers to be allowed physical intimacy with vastly superior beings like mages.

>>51725564
Gives this man a guanxi!

>>51725115
>Charly meanwhile tries for the Waitress, but fails spectacularly.

And charly learned that day that using forces to get the heart of a woman gets very literal.

>>51725671
I think its more along the line that either he does stuff to impress her that fails or that shes some kind of supernatural being herself and is immune to his powers

>>51725564
>It's the bestowal of a great honor upon sleepers to be allowed physical intimacy with vastly superior beings like mages.

The perspective offers the very disturbing impression that mages engaging in sex with sleepers amounts to little more than bestiality.

If you're up for that sort of thing, do you still require the consent of the pretty monkey? Would anything change if the partner was a werewolf instead of a lowly sleeper?

>magefags are STILL talking about how awesome it would be to rape people with magic
Jesus, I know its valentines and everything but come on

>>51725779
>If you're up for that sort of thing, do you still require the consent of the pretty monkey? Would anything change if the partner was a werewolf instead of a lowly sleeper?

A lot more swearing, clawing and sweating.

>>51725862
>A lot more swearing, clawing and sweating.
Sounds a lot hotter desu

>>51725779
>Would anything change if the partner was a werewolf instead of a lowly sleeper?

Gross, why would a werewolf even want to put his dog bone anywhere near a mage's vaginadentata

actually now i'm wondering, can a werewolf become a mage? Or do they not have avatars because they aren't fully human

>>51725931

A werewolf cannot become a mage either in oWOD or CofD.

>>51725872
>Sounds a lot hotter desu

if albrecht taught of something that magic on fur action is the hottest.

>>51725708
>>51725862
>>51725872
>do you still require the consent of the pretty monkey?

Who said the monkey was pretty?

Mages are superior, but last I checked, they're still capable of getting drunk.

Is Active Mage Sight affected by beer goggles?

>>51726064
>Who said the monkey was pretty?
Magic said so.

>>51726064
>Is Active Mage Sight affected by beer goggles?

The lesser known exarch of poorly made choices say yes.

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Such a qt

>>51724622
Yeah, the discussion above proved again, why Mage is my favourite gameline

Pretty strange definitions of rape in this thread

>>51725564
Sounds like somebody is a Daksha in the making.

Hit me up when you reach the point where you can turn into an unearthly beautiful woman.

>>51724686
>recipe passed down in the family for generations

Protip: Anything passed down for generations probably has something magical in it. That's just how this works.

>>51726150
You mean Prophet?

>>51726939
Nah, Prophet is the Exarch of Great Men, the idea that only a select few have the power to make real changes (and you're not one of them). The Ruin, Exarch of Fate, is the idea that you're fucked no matter what choice you make.

>>51725859
>rape people with magic
It's like raping with your eyes - it just happens and you can't help it.

>>51723987
>they don´t even enjoy sex.

In V20 it's explicitly said that "vampires can (and do) enjoy sex" and that, if nothing else, it's a great way to feed, since humans won't think to question the MINDBLOWING PLEASURE of the kiss so much if they're already in the middle of an orgasm and such, since some humans *do* remember the kiss in some way, even if we ignore the blood dolls.

That said, it's usually only done (at least consensually) by vampires with high levels of humanity, since they still need to use Blush of Health to maintain erections and get the "juices flowing again" and whatnot, and using the Blush of Health costs no blood if you're at humanity 8 or above, with Blush of Humanity costing more and more blood the lower your humanity.

Though, to be fair, in my case I usually houserule that all vampires can use Blush of Health, not just the ones on the Path of Humanity. I also houserule that vamps with low Humanity and the ones following other Paths still have to pay blood to use it, but never more than 5 blood points at maximum, depending on path rating.

The reason being that no matter how far their potential path is from humanity, vampires are still predators in my eyes, and I don't see the logic of monsters not having the ability to blend in with humans, so long as they're still in control of themselves.

>>51726976
Can't help it but Exarchs names give me flashbacks to Cosmere

So, I spent many years DMing D&D before STing WoD.

In WoD, characters have access to some pretty cool equipment, however it needs to be taken as a merit usually. For instance Sin Eaters have mementos.

What is the general rule of thumb for awarding neat stuff like that to the players for accomplishing a task?

Like, let's say a group of Sin Eaters takes down another group and steals one of their powerful (four or five dot) mementos.

As ST, do I need to tell them "No you can't steal it." or do I need to pull a MSG2 and say "Oh, You can't take enemy equipment and use it. It just doesn't work for you because reasons."

Basically, do they need to spend all of those experience before they can use it, or can I reward them with loot? It just feels weird, since it is the equivalent of just handing them a dozen or so EXP for free, when normally they would only get like 4.

>>51727309
You can come up with a reason that they can't use it. Then you can have next session devoted to them figuring it out and making it work.

Also point of merit is 4 exp so after a single session they in theory could get such item

>>51727418
>1exp not 4 sweet baby exarch wtf

>>51727418
But a four dot merit costs 20 exp, and a three dot costs 12.

It's the same for anything that you can normally buy with a merit, including like rituals, hunter endowments, etc.

If it were D&D, and you wanted to award some cool magical item, you would just give the item and subtract it from the gold horde they were expected to get, or just subtract from future gold hordes so it all evens out in the end.

In this, any interesting thing they could obtain is the equivalent of taking away all of the exp from like 3-4 adventures.

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>>51726803
>Anything passed down for generations probably has something magical in it.

Can confirm.

>>51726803
even STDs and genetic defects?

>>51727643
Especially those.

>>51727643
>THIS STRAIN OF AIDS HAS BEEN PASSED DOWN MY LEGACY FOR GENERATIONS!

>>51727643
Oath of Ruin, son. The Abyss is a hell of a drug.

>>51727667
>NOW I WILL PASS IT TO YOU

>mage supremacy

>>51728162
Can't even boost your mental stats without butthurt Sleepers screaming it's unfair to their retardation.

I remember when these threads had minimal magefags. Where the fuck did the swarm come from?

>>51728428

Around when Aspel stopped posting in these threads, though corellation is not causation.

>>51728428

Aspel's welcome departure and the lack of new and regular releases has left the field wide open. Mage fans are simply filling the gap. No one, however, is stopping discussions on other topics.

>>51728494
I'm pretty certain the Magefags aren't actual Mage fans.

>>51728523

That's pretty bold to declare, Anon.

>>51728556
I believe it is true. Since most of the true Magefaggery is blatantly untrue statements designed to annoy people who have actually read the mage books.

>>51728494
>No one, however, is stopping discussions on other topics.
Except you have magefags that keep telling everyone else to leave

>>51728556
I even suspect most of them do not play any of the cofd/wod games

>>51728523
I'm quite certain that the people disdaining from acknowledging Mage supremacy have never actually played it either.

A little annoying seeing people "downgrading" a splat just because it potentially edges out the other gamelines, when it doesn't need to be.

Mages need their containment thread.

>>51728599
>untrue statements

From what I have seen, the Mage supremacists are well informed.
You shouldn't declare someone "wrong" just because you disagree with it, Anon.

I still disagree with their bullying, though.

>>51728624
People complaining about Mages need their containment thread.

>>51728599
Oh? And just what is untrue then? I would like to know just how knowledgeable you are on the matter.

>>51728616
I blame M20 for being so trash

>>51728616
like most of the people in this thread?

>>51728616
>someone said something I don't like
>declare them to have never played anything
>fragile ego safe

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When the anti-magefags are actually less mature than the actual magefags

>>51728599
I would say the Magefaggery is just exaggeration. Mages are powerful and have way more potential but that doesn't make every Mage walking around a perfect, infallible master of Supernal Magic.

>>51728693
Yeah but Is it so bad that it soils older editions of Ascension or Awakening? Unless you spent cash on this damn book in with case I don't envy you

>>51728711
teeeheeee

>>51728745
We live in a world that wants spectacular and not the dull truth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlptgqP_PEA

>>51727309
>>51727497

Bumping my question.

>>51725779
Mages are only a hop skip and a jump away from being superhuman and totally inhuman barely requires any more effort than that. Sleeping with sleepers is just slumming it. Also what kind of loser would bother when you can make your waifu real by summoning her from the astral realms and giving her a homunculus body

>>51722934
This.

>>51728619
And I'm quite certain that some of us who're tired of hearing about Mage Supremacy are tired of it because Mage does not tell the stories that we're interested in.

>A little annoying seeing people "downgrading" a splat just because it potentially edges out the other gamelines, when it doesn't need to be.
That's just the thing. It doesn't matter to me that a mage could potentially do it, what annoys me is that if I think about doing it without a Mage I'm told I'm doing it wrong for not including Mages in my Chronicle. We get it, Mages are ultra cool guys. Stop shouting it from the rooftops.

>>51728828
>I'm told I'm doing it wrong for including Mages in my Chronicle

No one is forcing this on you, Anon. It's your Chronicle.

>>51728767
>Yeah but Is it so bad that it soils older editions of Ascension or Awakening? Unless you spent cash on this damn book in with case I don't envy you

The biggest problem was that it was suppose to END debate about what did what. We've had fuckers arguing and debating about mage for 20years. But this was going to be Word of God source material. but what we got were glorified blog posts and disjointed rules. 700 pages and nothing useful

Ascension always needed a bit of work to make run well. and Awakening was it's whole other system. 2edAwakening is a really nice engine thou.

>Spend money
Lord no

>>51728781
Personally I wouldn't give them such a powerful item early on. But if they already have their hands on it why not make campaign about them learning what it is and how to use it and then fucking something with it.

I do not really see a problem with giving players something above the norm if you know what you want to do with it latter on

>>51728828
So you're basically upset that you're being trolled?

You realize that Magefags are just trolls, right? They want you to be annoyed. They don't actually think you're wrong for not having Mages in your Chronicle.

>>51728599
>>51728616
>blatantly untrue statements designed to annoy people who have actually read the books
>most of them do not play any of the cofd/wod games

These statements, while possible true, are hardly limited to Mage fans, and represent a significant cross-section of purported fans from all the game lines.


Now,,, KNEEL BEFORE ZOD, errr... MAGES!

>>51728892
It's not even hard to troll this general, one lawnchair post and the thread derails.

If I threw Forces into Platonic Form would I be able to make a magic flaming sword?

>>51719802
>If you could, would you rewrite mage and how?
make obsession give the obsession condition
make sympathyyantras harder
limit ritual dic epool bonus
more order merits
it's a good game there's not much id change

>>51728968
Flaming all the time or more like lightsaber?

>>51728968
not perm but yes
you could just make a flaming sword with forces

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Guys can anyone throw me some nice plot hooks?

I'm trying to come up with a one-shot adventure about first-time Hunters. Essentially, they're a bunch of police detectives chasing a fugitive (who is really a vampire and was broken out by his vampire friends). What clues can I give them and chain together so they could discover the existence of vampires?

I've so far only come up with an idea of suspicious blood donation centers which smuggle out food for vampires - players could trace out where these black vans went, discover bloodbags in there, etc. Which I like and is nice, but I want to have several ways players' investigation could go. Any suggestions?

>>51728968

Yes, but you don't really need Forces.

You can have the sword burn with Prime's Celestial Fire.

>>51729059
they encounter a helpful mage who tells them what they need to know after having sex with a few of them

>>51729059

Use Mages. They make everything better.

>>51729059
>I'm trying to come up with a one-shot adventure about first-time Hunters. Essentially, they're a bunch of police detectives chasing a fugitive (who is really a vampire and was broken out by his vampire friends). What clues can I give them and chain together so they could discover the existence of vampires?
have the end like predator 2 with a bunch of vampires coming out of nowhere, punishing vampire with their own law and dominating the pcs to forget (they failed the roll)

>>51728933
Oh but I do not equate mage fans with mage supremacy trolls.

Only thing that saddens me is when people tell me I play my game wrong because I do trim things to fit in more in my chronicle

>>51720245
>my dick is the truth.

>>51729028
How do you mean like a lightsaber?

>>51729050
What do you mean?

>>51729067
What would be the difference?

>>51729059
One I did once was that the vampire was previously staked by an amateur hunter who thought that was good enough. Previously, he had only staked ghouls, which put them down for good.

While the coroner was doing the autopsy on the serial murder case, he pulled the stake out, and the vamp revived.

Made an interesting crime scene, someone killed the coroner, stole the body and all the report.

>>51729083
>encounter a helpful mage

Say what now?

I ain't no fuckin' fairy godmother.

What can those filthy sleepers do for me?

>>51729117
>What do you mean?
it wouldn't be permanent
and you can have forces wrap fire around a sword or make a sword shape in the air

>>51729145
Pest control, do you actually want leeches in your hood?

>>51729059
Make their boss or some kind of ally vampire that uses them to put down his rival? This is simple but effective and they can end with sorta ally/new enemy at the end of adventure

>>51729102
I like the idea behind this. but I would only pull something like this if they like completely fuck up staking and killing the vamp

>>51729117
If you want a flaming sword I would say make a sword imbued with a modified version of the Firebolt spell to just have it weave around the blade.

Or use Wonderful Machine to cross a sword with a butane torch or something.