Pathfinder General /pfg/

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>tfw your filename for the OP image has somehow stuck around for years and is still alive and kicking

Xth for Asmodeus needs to be overthrown

>>51698737
It doesn't help when Iomedae does such questionable shit and the Pathfinders themselves are about as self-serving and blundering as you'd expect PCs to be.

>>51698739
But determination is cute, Anon.

>>51698715

Probably, the first real moral quandary he set upon in his lifetime was whether or not he could kill another person, even if it was in self-defense.

He still doesn't like to kill if it can be avoided, but if it's unavoidable, he's willing to... though the first time it happened he was a wreck for the next week. Poor kid was just too pure for this world.

>>51698715
Who are the true heirs of Aroden's civilization and legacy? Cheliax, Molthune, Andoran and Taldor are all contenders in her mind.

>>51698715
>what sort of moral quandary has your character dealt with in his past

He had to decide whether or not he would murder a rapist that was wrongfully acquitted.

He beat him senseless with a hammer in an alleyway and stabbed him to death with his own shortsword.

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>>51698812
Taldor, without question.

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>>51698812
Molthune, obviously.

>>51698796
>a paladin dealing with the burdens of godhood and struggling to define what good and law are when she's the biggest authority there is could have been interesting

I want to marry this Iomedae! What are my chances?

>>51698715
What are the possibilities of political marriages with human nobility?

>>51698938
>wanting papa asmo's used goods
Actually on second thought I'd be honored.

>>51698960
With dragons I mean

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>>51698938
Are you an Azlant, look like Aroden, or secretely are him?
If not, then don't bet on it. And whatever you do, don't take her special Prestige class, otherwise it might be freaky for some androgynous fuccboi that looks like her trying to propose

>>51698964
Quit with your stupid Asmodeus memes, m8. He only ever fucked his "brother" and we all know it.

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>>51698991
What if I'm a dragon, look like Apsu, and might secretly be him?
Will that work?

>>51698898
But is it without question? Taldor wasn't even the center of Aroden's teachings while Aroden was alive, what gives them that position now that he's dead?

>>51698937
Molthune is a prominent choice. They respect the rule of law, and follow the teachings of Aroden in building solid positions and innovating, but Aroden was not a war god, and she doubts that Molthune will retain its current position without the warlike culture that form its foundations.

>>51698994
There is a reasonable chance him and Sarenrae boned.

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>>51699016
Proper breeding and a kingdom with real pedigree, my dear. Those other riff-raff simply can't compete without undignified compensating efforts. It's quite pathetic.

>>51699033
>implying two people who competed for the same angelic dick would ever bone

That would be the height of awkwardness, Anon.

Conjurar or exploiter wizard?

Also, you have 15 rp to build your race, what will you make and clean would you pick?

I need something to Gestalt with Asmodean Advocate for my Wrath of the Raunchy application. I'm planning on being a Devil-spawn tiefling descendant from a Drowner Devil.

I talked about him in last thread that he was an orphan of the Goblinblood wars and orphan in the Asmodean orphanages. He was trained, leveled up a few times, and was sent north as a representative of the particular small sect of the Asmodean church he belonged to.

I need something that fits with Asmodean Advocate. I would like to be an initiator.

Which of the initiators would fit best with an Asmodean Adovcate thematically? Is there an anti-paladin initiator archetype I could stack with Tyrant?

>>51699062
Which clasa

>>51698763
That's all well and good, but what will we do AFTERWORDS to make sure we aren't in a worse situation, like Chelish holdings feeding into Nidal, or another Eternal Revolution like Galt, or the whole nation falling into another Civil War like after Aroden's death?

We need to consider, before manuevering to overthrow Asmodeus, how to do so while maintining order and not just making things just as bad as before, and to ensure there isn't room for some other jerk just like Asmo to muscle in.


So, how will we do it, and who can be trusted to be the new patron of the mightiest empire currently in Avistan? We can rule out Iomedae, and Molthune and Druma are both currently where Abadar has his efforts occupied, and its unsure of Torag even wants to deal with a non-dwarvish empire. and going full fedora has will just leave us with another mess like Rahadoum
So who and where does that leave us with?

>>51699092
Class

>>51699041
Noble lineage isn't a facet of Aroden's teachings. His greatest servants weren't kings and queens, but those of low birth and who gave up what else they had in service to him. Your claim to former glory is the only thing that qualifies you for consideration, not an victory by default.

>>51699054
Nah I could completely see it happening because Aniki Ihys wouldn't bone either of them. Kind of like bitter hate fucking because neither of them could have Ihys's D.

>>51699062
Am I allowed to minmax my race? If so I go:

>Azlanti Noble
>Advanced (+2 Str/Dex/Con, +4 Int, -2 Cha)
>Advanced Int (+2 more Int)
>Linguist (because I like knowing languages)
>Flexible Bnus Feat
>Skilled
>Light Sensitivity

>>51699108
Why rule out Iomedae? If you're worried about her impetuous nature, give her a few moderate, Neutral Good advisors, like Sarenrae and Shelyn.

>>51699137
Yes, you are.

>>51699137
Not gonna lie, now Asmonrae is sounding kind of cute.

Anyone know where I can find a download of Age of Worms and the other 3.5 adventure paths?

>>51699210
I'm worried about anyone who would tell her followers to kill each other over an artifact, who likes to kidnap people and drop them without warning or preparation into the Abyss, and currently has a terrorist cell waiting to strike in the middle of Rahadoum.

Iomedae is the walking embodiment of the Lawful Stupid mentality, so forgive me for wanting someone is actually Lawful Good, or at least an intellectual Lawful Nuetral

>>51699210
>implying she would actually listen to any advisors

>>51699210
She needs non-good supervisors.

Iomedae has done nothing to inspire confidence in me. Where as Asmodeus actually runs a country that, surprisingly, takes care of its people for the most part.

I'm looking to start a campaign for my friends. We mostly want to do PoW stuff, but one of them might end up playing a caster/psion. What level should we start at to both be out of the "low level shitfest" zone but not be in the "rocket tag with nukes" zone?
Level 5? 7? 9? 11?
Looking to level up a bit, but it'll be slow.

>>51699385
3-5.

>>51699402
Does PoW really get bad that quick?

>>51699318
>I'm worried about her non-Good acts
>clearly she needs more Non-Good to fix it

Infernalists, everybody

>>51699385
3 and up is just edging out of shanktown. 6 is where martials get iteratives and 7th is where wizards get fireball.

3 to 12 is a good spot, I feel.

>>51699285
Rahadoum needs to be liberated, Anon.

>>51699461
Wizards get fireball at 5th and sorcerers get fireball at 6th.

So any 3pp feats that really help out monks?

>>51699443

Less that it gets bad fast and more 'Level 3 is out of Rusty Dagger Shanktown' but 6+ is starting to get out of the range when basic soldiers and such are much of a threat.

>>51699443
PoW doesn't get bad quick, it's mostly broken blade and primal fury that are out of line damage wise from level 1 and up due to getting early iteratives doubling with damage boosts from boosts AND two handed weapons fighting.

I suggest switching both with fool's errand and a different discipline. Elemental flux is also pretty damaging but is not as bad.

Overall the rest are fine apart from rising zenith strike which is an outlier.

>>51699448
I'm more worried about non-lawful than non-good. Abadar is busy, so I would ask Irori to do it but he is too busy wanking off to his own enlightenment.

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>>51699473
Liberated from the only regime that has brought it peace after a 300-year war? Hardly! Look at the assassins on the isle west of here, or the fiend-driven invaders from the north! Look at the Eye - even in death, the so-called gods have brought nothing but trouble to this land!

>>51699304
If they were respectable figures like Sarenrae she would.

>>51699479
My bad, for some reason had it pegged as a 4th level spell. But yeah, level 5 is where things get powerful.

>>51699518
Torag would be a great advisor. He's canonically one of her three favorite contemporaries (Sarenrae and Milani are the others.)

Speaking of PoW, anyone got basic tips for running a PoW-focused campaign?
How do I scale up the encounters? How many maneuvers to give to people?
Like, would an average Joe Schmoe city guard know more than a level 1 counter?
Should an Orc Barbarian have maneuvers at all?
How do I make classic monsters (like, say a chimera) fun to fight without them either going down instantly or magically having maneuvers?

>>51699521
It's foolish to disregard the most powerful forces for Righteousness in existence. Would you advocate folly?

>>51699578
Give monsters legendary actions like in 5e. A Chimera would be perfect for legendary actions.

>>51699578
Your average guard should know one offensive and one defensive maneuver from a mundane discipline. Iron Tortoise is a great one to use.
For monsters, Chimera Soul.

>>51699473
Doing so via violence will only make them more recalcitrant, and will only go towards justifying their views on religions and the gods.
You can't force a conversion on people at sword-point, nor can you murder otherwise good or nuetral people for not agreing in your philosophy, since those are EVIL acts.

Trust me, I'd like to fix those morons myself, especially considering they are curretnly destroying their country, development, and even their own ecosystems. But we can't do so without being exactly what they have lied and demonized us as. Do you really want to be just as bad as Asmodeus for the sake of "liberating" them

>>51699538
The problem with Sarenrae is she can barely control her own vassal nation, especially with the whole Dawnflower Schism going on. Plus Its not a nice nation either to begin with.

>>51699597
>>51699578
>>51699608
I'm thinking about running a 9th level module. Should I straight up increase the level of monsters?
Like, is it okay for a PoW character to one-round a CR appropriate enemy with a maneuver?

>>51699556
>Torag
>one of the 3 man dream team Asmo, Abby, and Torg

>>51699626
Perhaps, but she is more moderate than Iomedae, and Iomedae respects her as the preeminent ancient Paladin goddess.

>>51699641
>Asmo, Abby, and Torg
What about Erastil?

>>51699641
It would be a great play to muscle LE out and put more LG in. Don't discount Torag's goodness.

>>51699656
He hates those queers.

How do I explain picking OD on my Warder without actually being church-dude or chosen one?
I want a specific warpriest thing for thematics.

>>51699687
Raised as a good god-fearing man, but a bit simple.

>>51699663
Torag, Abadar, and Asmodeus have known each other for over 10,000 years, and have fought together on the side side multiple times. To the point the three of them worked together to create the puzzle box that sealed away Rovagug, that was the three of their's big play. They've also been together in the same Pantheon.

Iomedae isn't even a thousand years old.

She is quite literally a toddler in a group of war buddies who have known each other forever.

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>>51699582
It is foolish to trust those who expect you to grovel before them and yet cannot care enough to keep their own sycophants or their own petty quarrels in check.

Are you a fool, anon?

>>51698771
>Pathfinders themselves are about as self-serving and blundering as you'd expect PCs to be.

I mean, the Pathfinder Society is pretty much explicitly stated to not be the good guys.

They have some good-aligned factions, but they're very much riding the line between neutral and evil.

>>51699698
Hey, that's actually perfect. Didn't think about that being a good excuse to take OD.
Thanks

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>>51699556
>>51699663
Why don't we just place Torag as the new Patron Cheliax instead of Iomedae? That we we can also have better cultural and economic connections with the Five Kings Mountains.

>>51699673
Actually, he is really good friends with and really likes Torag. See pic related. He doesn't necessarily hate Abadar, he's just disappointed that he's lost sight of what's important.
Sadly there isn't much info on how he feels about Asmodeus

What kind of standing should level 9 to 11 characters be?
As in, are they hot shit yet? Like, is the Fighter getting offers to be the duke's personal bodyguard or is he enough of a big shot to attract the attention of the king? Is the Bard known throughout the country for his lyricism, wit, and enormous dick or is he just a local celebrity?

>>51699798

Level 9=11 is when you're hot shit, that's the level you'll find Grand Admirals and Supreme Commanders.

Level 5 is what you're thinking of when you're just the duke's personal bodyguard or a regional celebrity, level 9 is when you start to become a big deal on the national scene, and level 15 is when words of your deeds are on the lips of tavern-goers from Kalsgard to Kasai.

>>51699798
9 to 11 is national to continental renown. You're not a true hero of legend yet, but you have your mentions in history books long after you've passed.

>>51699700
Pretty sure escalating from mortal to top tier major deity in less than a millennium is impressive, not embarrassing. All those other fucks have just been faffing around for thousands of years. That's not impressive, it's lackluster.

>>51699773
Shelyn is cute! CUTE!

>>51699443
Pathfinder gets bad that quick. There's a reason E6 is a thing. Not that E6 really helps.

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>>51699773
>That we we can also have better cultural and economic connections with the Five Kings Mountains.

Am I the only one that really, really wants to play a campaign centered around Druma and the Five Kings Mountains, probably something focused around exploiting recently discovered natural resources and handling the numerous Reds that make the mountain range their home?

>mfw you will never become stupidly rich and have the ability to actually enjoy said wealth between missions.

>>51699773
Replace Asmodeus with Torag instead. Much better alignment spread that way.

>2hu actively trying to ruin out-of-combat utility in Spheres of Might because he would have to take Boxing to exploit a social talent for his INT-stacking abominations.

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>>51699870

Who is the closest anime character approximation of Shelyn?

>>51699894
I thought he got kicked out of the SoM playtest.

>>51699909
That was a private game. He's moved to post all his shit in the public document.

>>51699443
Actually it's kinda the opposite; the early levels are where it's the most troublesome.

Fact is, by 10+ EVERYONE is a WMD, but it's at 1-3 where PoW classes getting that extra die of damage or giving the party a +2/+2 are a bit too much.

In the 5-10 range PoW actually can REDUCE the rocket-tag problem thanks to things like counters and even the liberal use of strikes (especially on the enemy side), which is actually a good thing.

By 16+ of course everything breaks down no matter who or what you're playing, so at that point the 4-digit autocrit stalkers and elemental cascade warders no longer matter - or rather, are exactly as much of a problem as any charger martial, full attack martial, or even fucking rogue; that is to say, whatever they target will die from massive overkill, but is doing 1600 then any worse than doing 900 or 2300 on that same guy? It's all a one-round murder, PoW or not.

>>51699909
I think the SoM playtest imploded anyways. Oh well, SoM looked like it could have been fun.

>>51699578
MORE targets.
The main "cost" of PoW is action economy. Rather than being balanced per day, a LOT of 3pp material nowadays is balanced by their actions (this includes gambler kineticists, avowed, etc etc, not just pow). Fighting large handfuls of lieutenants and minions will do far more against PoW characters than single-attacking-single-boss type encounters (which you find in a disturbing amount of pathfinder society encounters).

One guy doing one attack was already being irrevocably shut down by pre-nerf crane-wing, so you can imagine what happens when four guys surround the poor son of a bitch and proceed to more or less roman-cancel him into a pulp somewhere around the early beginning of round 1.

But a whole bunch of moderate guys with like, martial training 1? A counter here, A strike there, that shit will keep them all on their damn toes.

This applies to a lot of martials anyways; sure a PoW guy has maneuvers, but that ragepounce barbarian is tearing a mammoth's limbs off and eating them in the same turn just as easily

>>51699798
Level 1-3 is Rusty Dagger Shanktown
Level 4-6 is where you have a bit of a name ie. well known bodyguard for the duke
Level 7-10 is where you start to get known over a region to small nation
Level 11-13 is nationwide to continental renown and in the history books
Level 14-16 is internationally recognized hero of legend
Level 17-20 is basically being a god amongst mortals

>>51700027
The second playtest was canceled, but playtest 1 is still going strong.

>>51700081

To give an idea on the scale of some APs, Council of Thieves takes you to level 12 while Wrath of the Righteous takes you to level 20 / Mythic 10.

>>51699927
But... That's what people told him to do. They said "don't post it here, go away and post it directly to the people who will be able to change it"

>>51699578
>>51700060
More targets, and have counters for 1 out of every 3 dudes. Hell, give groups a floating pool of strikes and counters to use and have them all draw from the same pool.

>>51700060
>This applies to a lot of martials anyways; sure a PoW guy has maneuvers, but that ragepounce barbarian is tearing a mammoth's limbs off and eating them in the same turn just as easily
At the same time though, that's ALL the ragelancepounce Barbarian can do, and it takes his whole build to do it. The PoW guy does that with one or two maneuvers, and then can teleport away on his next round before doing the same amount of damage at range with sword beams and negating the biggest attack of something that manages to catch back up to him.

And all of his feats are Monkey Lunge, because he doesn't need them.

>>51700111
>Wrath of the Righteous takes you to level 20 / Mythic 10.
An AP actually takes you tolevel 20? How long are you allowed to enjoy being max level? Is it worth building around or is it one of those things that only last for the final session where the wizard doesnt even get to prepare new spells?

Is Fool's Errand out yet or still in playtest?

>>51700164
Vanilla Wrath isn't very good with the encounters, but you get to use some of the lategame powers

>>51700164
You're level 20 for about half of the last book, actually.

>>51700164
>How long are you allowed to enjoy being max level?

Long enough to have maybe three encounters with appropriately powerful foes. Wrath of the Righteous is a great many things, and one (arguably positive) of them is it's a huge-ass wankfest power fantasy letting players use the full gamut of the system to do whatever the hell they want.

Wrath of the Righteous in the hands of a DM who knows what they're doing is the best AP in the system, bar none.

Level 20 Mythic 10 means you're immortal - now, I know there's a lot of different types of immortality, but when I say immortal I mean, "nothing short of another Mythic being can kill you."

Ok so POW: haft strike apparently allows you to hit nearby adjacent targets. I'm not sure if the recent update to the srd has messed with the wording but does it really let you attack at all ranges for the low price of -2 AC?

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>>51699898
Flonne from Disgaea

>>51700278
So, Shelyn's actually numerian, and uses a giant robot in battle?

>>51700278
Basically.

>>51700308
Wouldn't you?
Also, where are you getting Numerian from? And I'm pretty sure Flonnezilla is her in a costume and sizechanged, not a robot.

I get weapon finesse for free due to feat tax rules.
Is it worth the one feat slot to go for a DEX build on my upcoming ZS/OD Warder?

>>51699064
Anyone have opinions on this?

>>51700375
Not for Zweihander, no

Are there any weapons other than a lance worth using on a PoW mounted build?

>>51700431

Refluff as longsword as a sabre and run down some peasants.

>>51699064
>>51700380
Primal Disciple Barbarian.

>>51700375
Dex to damage feats don't give 1.5x Dex for two-handing, so that wouldn't be able to take advantage of most of the zweihander abilities.

>>51700465
I'm not really sure if Barbarian fits with the themes of Asmodean Advocate. I don't really think of Lawyer when I think barbarian. Or religious either.

How can I gain bleed damage on a glaive?
PoW is on the table. Level 10. I don't want it to be strong, just need it for flavor reasons.

>>51700551
>PoW is on the table.

>Weeping Scarlet Razor
>7th level Scarlet Throne Maneuver
>Arterial strike that inflicts an additional 4d6 points of damage and grants the bleeding condition on the target.

>>51698715
Is it worth it to go tiefling, pass for human, racial heritage to get Paragon Surge?
As opposed to going straight half elf.

Confused about Hunter spells. It says it casts one level 1 spell on the table, then the next table says it knows four 0th spells and two 1st levels from Ranger.
What about Druid spells?
Even though the Hunter uses two different class spell lists does it really only start with one 1st level spell to cast?

>>51700570
That's 3 levels away, sadly. I'll see if there's perhaps a less powerful version of that maneuver, though.

Rolled 2 (1d7)

So another game is ending recruitment soon! Let's look at characters one last time.

>https://app.roll20.net/forum/post/4575801/applications

Four Spots are open, Vote here!
>http://www.strawpoll.me/12313956

Characters who haven't been accepted yet:
>Matsutoya, Tattooed Mystic
>Kohaku, Kitsune Gunslinger
>Yaozu, Infamous Duelist
>Niara, Harrowed Soothsayer
>Al, Nonspecific Orc
>Lorry, Desperate Bandit
>Nettle, Masked Physician

Of these 7 unchosen characters we'll example 1 in detail. We'll roll to see who.

>>51700610
>That's 3 levels away, sadly.

No no, I mean you get it at level 7, it's a 4th level maneuver.

There's also Crippling Strike, which is a Primal Fury maneuver you get at level 3 (2nd level) and does +2d6 as well as Bleed.

>>51700636
Also Fangs Strike Low, a 3rd level Thrashing Dragon maneuver.

>>51700604
No, just grab the Self-Realization Domain if you want it so bad.
>>51700609
At level 1 a hunter knows 4 orisons, 2 1st level spells, and can cast 1 1st level spell + Bonus spells every day.

You've got a buffed animal companion and a self buff. Deal with it.

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>>51700620
Kohaku, Kitsune Gunslinger!

Pic related is him in Kitsune form, on his application he has an image of him in human form as well.

>Character Sheet
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1098548

>Paragraph Introduction
Kohaku, or 'Ko,' as he prefers, was born in the back of a traveling caravan as his family entered Chantha, in search of work. Admittedly, there wasn't much work in Chantha either, but at least there was a slightly higher chance of it. Either way, they made it to Chantha, and fit right into the crowd.

Sadly enough, although not exactly too surprising, Ko's litter-mates mostly didn't make it to adulthood. Food was scarce, and disease common. At 16, Ko's mother died, followed quickly by his father after an especially bad winter for disease. So, he took to one of the few things he was good at; lying through his teeth. Most gangs need a fence, and Ko was rather skilled at getting things from one place to the other with no questions asked. A rather exciting life, really, especially when someone came in desperate to get rid of one of those new 'firearms.' Ko bought it up rather quickly, and kept it for himself. It took some time, (and many repairs to the back wall,) but he eventually got the hang of it, more or less, not that far off from a crossbow. Now, he had two skills: lying, and how to use a gun! Wonderful!

>What does the Empress usually say in your character's dreams?
Usually a story, sometimes in a language he can speak, sometimes not, but those he can understand often times vaguely relate to a current/later situation in his life, and offer advice, which he usually follows.

>>51700663
Are those known split between Ranger and Druid lists then?

>>51700226
Yes.

>>51700700
You can choose freely from either list. If a spell is on both lists you pick it as the earlier level.

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Which bowman class is the best at their job? Ranger, Archer-Fighter, or Zen Archer?

>>51700821
Hunter.

>>51700663
Was planning to play a wizard though.

>>51700834
Why's this?

>>51700821

How mystical you wanna get, senpai?

If you just want someone who's very, very good at shooting bows, than probably the Slayer or Fighter (Archer).

>>51700821
Paladin.

>>51700663
Besides, what deities have self realization?

Which god is the best fit for a sohei type character?
Irori?

>>51700894
Bishamonten

>>51700894

Yaezhing?

>>51700875
>>51700836
There's probably a wizard archetype that gets domains at this point. Or just buy scrolls and UMD it, the DC is only 25. Or just play a half-elf. Self-Realization is a Subdomain of Strength and Liberation. Irori, Urgathoa, Kurgess, Haagenti, Arshea, Shei, Falayna.

How would Papa Asmo take a worshiper sexualizing him in a manner of "pray for devil dick"? I want to essentially have my character have craft (sculpture) to make sexy asmodeus figurines and craft (painting) to paint wallscrolls of sexy Asmodeus.

His entire shtick is "ASMODEUS I LOVE YOU".

>>51700950
Either I'm retarded or that's not a canonical god in Golarion.

>>51700957
Too heavy on the murder, and I really don't want to be running around with a LE aura on me. Was hoping for a Something Neutral god.

>>51700973
>His entire shtick is "ASMODEUS I LOVE YOU".

Not much of a shtick.

Is there any point to playing a ranger over a slayer or a hunter?
It seems like no matter what kind of ranger you're trying to play, the hunter or the slayer will be able to do it better.

>>51700963
Pretty sure DM would only allow self realization on a deity with the actual sub domain on the portfolio.

>>51700992
>Was hoping for a Something Neutral god.

Hei Feng, Sun Wukong and Yamatsumi are good choices, the first one makes you a jolly warrior interested in spreading prosperity and happiness (and likely have a maneki-neko), the second is a good ole drunken brawler, and the third is very much the calm, meditative type that can get [TRIGGERED] at a moment's notice.

>>51700992
>>51700894
General Susumu, Lawful Neutral.

>>51701038
>>51700992

Fugg, didn't mean to say Hei Feng, meant to write Kofusachi

Was the Curse of the Crimson Throne player's guide updated for Pathfinder? Or just the AP itself?

>>51698691
Trust me bro, if your players are even slightly murderhobo-ey they're going to kill that thing on sight. Unless you've got someone like me who loves Dragons and hates having to fight them in the games I'm playing, every other session I've played in multiple groups has just said "screw it" and treated every dragon they've come across as an immediate threat that they just need to kill so it doesn't get bigger and ravage the countryside like some kind of mindless beast.

Side effect of living in a Western country I suppose, do you think Eastern players treat dragon NPCs with less immediate hostility?

>>51701055
>>51701038
I really like Kofusachi, actually. Good stuff. Thanks, anon.

>>51700996
Trust me, I'll make it a big shtick.

>>51701104
not western-style dragons.

so folks I've come up with a /crazy/ idea for a final boss fight in seven phases.

The first phase involves Six Mediums, each arranged in a circle at six nexus points in a large city. Each of these mediums is level 20, and each one plays to the strengths of each spirit: the Champion spirit has the Mythic Agile Template, the Guardian is nearly impossible to kill (but has a weakness to something which the GM should create), the Trickster attacks in darkness, the Archmage blasts, the Hierophant does... hierophant stuff, and the marshal commands brainwashed troops etc., etc.

After killing each of these level 20 mediums, the true Final Boss will reveal itself at the center of the city. This final boss is actually nothing special, but when the players approach him he will draw them into a minor demiplane to do battle. This demiplane consists of his ancient castle, with the top of the kilometer-high tower comprising the battlefield. The final boss will go down easily in this first phase, essentially being a level 20 fighter, but before the last blow is struck he will Consume one of the Mediums that were summoning him.

He will Consume the last Medium the players have killed, earning the abilities it got and being returned to roughly 75% health. Depending on the medium and which spirit it channeled, it gains special features. These are cumulative, and each Medium Consumed advances it to the next phase.

>Champion grants it an extra attack at full BaB, Pounce, and lets it switch between TWF, Archery, and Two-handed. Also adds maneuvers.

>Guardian grants DR/20, cuts energy damage by half, and lets it negate one attack a round

>Marshal lets it summon temporary minions and buff them.

>Hierophant grants it self-buffs and the ability to heal some minor damage

>Archmage grants blasting and teleportation shit

>Trickster makes it invisible and lets it counteract player buffs.

1/?

>>51700337
The disgaea worlds are actually high-tech space empires in quite a few cases, including the celestia where flonne hails from.

>>51701150

I'm not sure if I want your shtick in a group, especially if you're going to just wave it around.

>>51701157
But Pathfinder is built with Western-style dragons in mind when they were designed! Even the Good-aligned ones are thick and stocky just like how Europeans described them.

>>51700821
Hawkguard Warder.

>>51701305
The shtick isn't for you, the shtick is for asmodeus.

>>51701270

If the players manage to defeat all six phases of it, then it will enter into a FINAL PHASE. This phase doesn't involve actually fighting him, but involves the players needing to figure out how to escape his demiplane, the obvious solution being the great portal at the bottom of the tower. If they manage to get into this portal, they are placed in an appropriate location, and the boss fight looks to be done...

Until the ULTIMATE BEING roars and comes right back out for round two! He has now become a raging, eldritch abomination: treat him as if he was hit with a Form of the Alien Dragon spell.

So yeah. Crazy boss fight. Probably like, ultra end-game or something, definitely Level 20/Mythic 10 to compete with him.

2/2

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>>51701026
Pretty sure DM should ban Paragon Surge.
Here are the relevant rules. Divine Anthology.

What's the cheapest way I can get an improved familiar as a Warder? I want a Cat Sith companion for flavor reasons.
Would it be easier to just take Squire, or is that gonna require too much fuckery?

>>51701326

Yeah, but seeing him work his shtick would really creep me out.

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>>51701341

Anon! Might I suggest talking to your DM first? If he knows you only want it for the flavor, he might throw you a bone (Errr, cat, in this case.)

>>51701354
I'm the kinda autist that needs a battle plan before I bring anything up with my GM.
It's a bad habit.

Guys my party really wants to make a Good Cleric and an Evil Cleric long running campaign, this is the concept we have come up with.

>Asmodeus has the soul of one of Sarenrae's Solars
>Makes a bet with Sarenrae
>She can put the soul of her solar into a Paladin Avatar
>He can put the soul of one of his sealed Pit Fiends into an Avatar
>They must adventure together and are bound by contract that they cannot break their word or tell a lie to one another.
>If either one alters their alignment they lose the bet and both souls belong to the winning diety.


How fucked is our party/10?

I'm fucking hype

>>51701374
>It's a bad habit.
Break the habit. Unless you fight it, you'll always be inhibited by it.

>>51701375
Sarenrae sealed the pit fiend*

>>51701383
>fighting the inevitable

You naive fool.

What is the best class or archetype combination to represent a character on the edge of madness?

>>51701288
I never played past 3, so excuse me if I find that hard to believe

What's the highest you can boost your reach with PoW stuff up to 5th level?
As far as I can tell you can hit 20 feet with:
Reach weapon + Stance of the Thunderbrand + Grasp of the Goddess.

>Be Me
>Be Running Kingmaker
>Party be whack, yo, but whatevs.
>Immortal Azlanti trying to be a new Aroden
>Space woman from the Diaspora crash landed on Golarion
>Runaway warforged from Alkenstar.
>Psychic Oni from Minkai
>Trying to make ITHMANDER, GOD OF THE ATOM'S WARMTH the god-king of their new Kingdom.
>Have converted everyone they meet with fast talking and diplomacy.
>Came across a randomly generated Lamashtan ritual site being eaten by Tatzlwyrms
>Lamashtan ritual leader had a signet ring of House Surtova (randomly determined)
>So THAT'S why they're allied with dragons...
>Ithmander decides to burn all her shit and use the ashes as the foundation for a shrine to him.
>Oni asks if they get a reward for cleansing the area.
>"Not one that can be quantified, but someone definitely noticed."
>Roll Random encounter for that night.
>Fucking Hellhounds (using custom table)
>Decide to throw a Mythic one as their leader, Lamashtu's favorite hound, Bloodmaw.
>Bloodmaw coup-de-graces' Ithmander's favorite horse as his opening action.
>Horse Nat 20s the save like a boss.
>Isn't even KO'd, just staggered.
>Party shreds up the Hellhounds except for bloodmaw because they're all OP as shit.
>Bloodmaw just be: "Fuck it. I'm bringing more next time." and planeshifts out.

So now my Kingmaker party has declared a holy war against Lamashtu and all of her worshipers, and plan to ban her worship in their kingdom, as soon as they kill that staglord fellow. Gonna wait until they have a kingdom for Bloodmaw to appear again - think I'll have his pack ravage the countryside as one of the Kingdom Events.

>>51701415
Swashbuckler. You'd have to be mad to play as one.

>>51701415
Madman monk archetype

>>51701306
What's that got to do with how people in the east perceive western dragons?

I've redone my character's weekly budget and changed some things. Now I am looking at:
>200gp
Regular prostitutes
>150gp
Luxury prostitutes
>200gp
Emergency prostitutes
>600gp
Narcotics (various)
>200gp
Fireworks (various)
>100gp
Fireworks (combat)
>200gp
Bling
>75gp
Bribe money
>1gp
Food/lodging

Am I forgetting anything?

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>>51701606

>>51701606
>people ask him why he spends 350 GP/week on prostitutes
>he starts spending 550 GP/week on prostitutes

>>51701606
No anon, we told you to spend less money on prostitutes last time!

>Bribe money
Well, at least you grabbed that.

You forgot gambling money though.

Weeeeew...

The SRD's actually started its shift off fucking google sites at last. This is kinda trippy

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>>51701606

>>51701416
The entire multiverse in that setting is quite advanced. A lot of the "old" looking things are either actually ancient or there for the aesthetics.

For one thing, prinnies? The costumes and 'creation' of the prinnies is factory mass-production.

Videogames are common in the setting, earth itself has interstellar travel, numerous characters (including flonne) spend a lot of time playing videogames and watching anime, Flonne owns Great Flonzor X. Pringer Xs are used by Etna in Can I Really Be the Hero, and the super-robot version exists in phantom brave and Disgaea 2 as well (also Mao was involved in its design).

Trinity Universe helps make it fairly clear as well. It's all actually a really technologically advanced multiverse.

>>51701639
>>51701606
What does 500gp a week of prostitutes even buy you?

That's "Wake up from a bender, draped naked over an elephant in front of several aasimar women having a knife fight for your entertainment while the city burns around you" level of bender.

>>51701594
Perception is reality my guy, I can guarantee you that if PF dragons were styled after Eastern designs they wouldn't be nearly as reviled in the average party as they are right now.

>>51701696
With an entire pillowcase full of drugs

>>51701703
Perception is only reality if you have a high enough bonus to the skill!

>>51701606
My character's plan for this week is the following
>rent out a pool, fill it with gelatin
>get between 15 and 20 garuda-blooded aasimar prostitutes
>get them to save their heads
>somehow get a natural swim speed
>line them beak to ass in the bool from one end to the other
>get a fuck ton of Zerk
>make a line of Zerk from one end of the pool to the other along the aasimars
>see if I can do that much zerk while swimming and not die
>likely going to make it so I am strapped into something so even if I pass out I'll still do all the Zerk

>>51701606
Fireworks (Various) is shit, just add that 200gp to Fireworks (Combat) and hope no kids are nearby when you're using them for fun.

Rolled 83, 50, 52, 55, 94 = 334 (5d100)

>>51701747
Oh and I've made a bet that I have to drink 5 doses of Numerian Fluid back to back. Let's see how it goes.

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>>51701534

>All that
>Haven't even beaten the Stag Lord yet

They're level 2, tops.

>>51701922

>3 sickened effects
>+6 to a random score for 2d4 days
>Plate armor skin

Rolled 60, 34, 38, 92, 97, 66, 100, 86, 1, 88 = 662 (10d100)

>>51701992
It is a double or nothing sort of thing. I can go back for 10 more. Let's see here.

>>51702011

>100
>Roll on the exceptional side effects

PANIC

>>51702011

>1
>The drinker’s cellular structure breaks down, and her flesh dissolves off of her bones. The victim dies in 1 round unless a limited wish, regeneration (not just the regeneration ability), or wish spell is administered. Immunity to ability drain prevents death, but immunity to death effects or poison does not.

Rolled 3 + 4 (1d6 + 4)

>>51702011
>sickened
>1d4 negative levels
>go unconscious
>gain fast healing 5, have to each twice as much
>mild precognizance
>stench
>EXPONENTIAL
>4 extra rolls
>dissolves into nothing

Let's see what the exponential and two of the extras are

Rolled 4 (1d10)

>>51702065
>fucked up the roll

>>51702065
>>51702086
Yup, he dead. Becomes skeleton man.

>>51702105
He died as he lived, incredibly stupidly.

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Hey, I hope you had a great weekend.

>>51702214
I did! And it might be lasting a little longer if this snow keeps up.

Alright, I've got it. A Demilich has a base on the moon, and he keeps throwing undead at the earth. So, it's constantly raining undead. I guess bloody skeletons would be good.

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>>51702282

Wouldn't they burn up in the atmosphere?

What are the demons on the moon doing about this?

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>>51702214

I've had worse. Hope yours was nice.

>>51702331
Alright, so you cover them in moon rocks. Problem solved.

Ok so I never tried mythic. Is there any reason not to take the +2 ability bumps to your casting stat?
Do you guys usually spread these stats around or what?

>>51702364
>Do you guys usually spread these stats around or what?

I thought you're not allowed to do them on the same stat in a row? As a martial player, I tend to spread the love around - first bump goes to my attack stat, second bump goes to Con, and the third bump pads my attack stat out into a sweet, even +6.

>>51702394
There is no such limitation.

>>51702394
>>51702364
You can only apply the mythic path ability to an ability score once.

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Stat me.

Seriously though, is this guy using Mithral Current, Elemental Flux *and* Riven Hourglass?

Someone post that image explaining why Craft sucks. I'm trying to wrap my head around it.

>>51702478
owlbear and owldog

>>51702502
Blah blah blah, mundane crafting is ridiculously time consuming even with maximum investment. Meanwhile craft wondrous items lets you produce items within days.

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>>51702510

All I wanted to do was craft interesting, mundane items!

THAT'S ALL I WANTED!

>>51702581
To put this shit in perspective. It takes about a year to craft a mithral hellknight plate out of raw materials in a fully stocked workshop with assistants helping you out.

Meanwhile a wizard in a cave can build a headband of int +2 in a few days using only sticks and pebbles.

>>51702581
If its worth silver pieces then you should be able to do so without too much issues.

Cost is what we're looking at here. A shitty raft made with trees that you punched minecraft style assembled with your bare hands only takes about a week.

>>51702624
But assuming you have help and all of the required materials at your disposal from the start you can easily build one of those rafts in like, a day.

>>51702645
Yes but why would you ever need to build one yourself unless you're pulling a Tom hanks in a shitty island.

>>51702624
>>51702602

>It takes 2 months to forge a masterwork longsword
>Meanwhile it takes an afternoon to enchant that longsword to +5 with flaming and keen

Amazing Tools of Manufacture can't come soon enough.

>>51702730
for that matter it takes barely over an hour to make the MW longsword itself with magic

>>51702730
But you need craft wondrous item to get one of those. Checkmate craftsmen.
Wizards: 1
Muggles: 0

So Dragonborn DM here, on top of the constructs littered throughout the facility the PCs are going to go through I'm also considering adding an optional fight with what's essentially a shadow clone of one of the big bads of the adventure, should they manage to notice the Scrying orb that will be following them throughout the area.

They're level 3 but the evil dude is a Mature Adult Black dragon, so I obviously don't want to party wipe my players in a single round, but I figure if the fight happens I could essentially just take the MAD stats and basically make a lesser lesser simulacrum with lowered stats compared to the real deal. Should I just grab the stats of a lower age category or is there some number that I should divide the stats by and keep all the same special abilities?

Let's make a suit of full plate!

A level 3 craftsman has 3 points in Craft (Armor), +3 from class skill, +3 from Skill Focus (Craft (Armor)), and let's give him +3 int. He's a smart guy. He's using nice tools, which give him another +2. All told, that's +14. The DC to make a breastplate is 19 (10+Breastplate AC) so he fails the check on a 4 or less. Luckily we're good enough that we can't accidentally botch half of our raw materials! Phew! A 5 represents one week to make 361 sp worth of goods, scaling up to a 20 representing 646. All told you generate 402 sp/week on average.

A suit of full plate costs 15,000 sp. We'll have it done in around 37 weeks!

I just hope no one ever wants our guy to make mithril fullplate. That stuff costs 105,000 sp and would take a bit over 5 YEARS of working every single week!

>>51702829
The unchained rules are better, r-right?

>>51702829

How does Paizo react to these numbers?

>>51702842

SKR's response was just "google it" when someone pointed this bullshit out years ago.

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>>51702476
>Upon reaching the 2nd mythic tier, an ability score of your choice permanently increases by 2. At 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th tiers, another ability score of your choice permanently increases by 2;
>This can be an ability score you’ve already increased or a different ability score.

>>51702842
To be fair you don't exactly expect Schlomo Longnoseinson to be trusted with mithril. Likely you need to commission one from the dwarves or someshit.

>>51702856
Let's not pretend the dwarves are much better at this, despite their fussing.

>>51702863
Thats exactly what ""master-smith"" Schlomo wants you to believe.

>>51702846
>mythic path ability
>3rd-Tier Universal Path Abilities
>Enhanced Ability (Ex)

>>51702856
>dwarves are just taking the mithril to a wizard with Fabricate

>>51702840
Well let's have a look! Seems for the cost of a feat you can double your production speed once you hit level 5! It's a shame our craftsman isn't there, but let's level him up a bit!

5 points in Craft (Armor), +3 from class skill, +3 from Skill Focus, +3 int, +2 from tools, and we'll be nice and give him one of those feats that gives him another +2, for a total of... +18! Even on a 1 we're still making progress!

A 1 is 361, doubled thanks to our skill unlock to 722 sp, and a 20 generates the blazingly high 1444 sp/week! We're averaging 1083 sp/week, which means our armor will be done in just under 14 weeks.

And that mithril full plate? 97 weeks! We'll have it done in less than two years!

>>51702895

There was something funny a while back about how all magic is just dwarves. Maybe that's it?

>>51698715
Does having a familiar providing you with alertness quality for sleepless detective?

How do you feel as a knight with masterwork full plate and your grandfather's masterwork greatsword when a caveman comes by and kicks your teeth in with his +3 great club. We know this shit happens in Realm of the Mammoth Lords.

>>51702917
Mithril Fullplate is a DC30 to make progress. Special material increase steps by 2.

>>51702973
I feel like you're doing this metaphorically to this thread by reposting this an absurd amount of times over the past couple of threads.

Why was the last thread deleted?

>>51703335

If I had to guess, the OP. There's been some pretty iffy ones lately.

>>51703366
The last OP was totally fine.

https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/51698249/#51698249

We even got 30 posts in.

>>51703408
Anime trash is never 'fine'.

>>51703418
Why not?

>>51701970
They didn't make the bee-line to the Stag Lord's fortress.

THey've been methodically going through the entire region in a grid pattern. They're level 4 now, from all the random encounters/quest completion.

They convinced the kobolds to worship Ithmander, who diplomanced the ones in the radish patch (where they've started the crude rudiments of a village).

Seriously tho, like half the map is uncovered, it's been something like two months in game, still no Stag Lord fight. Not sure what the dude should have (already giving him some Riven Hourglass stuff because he's associated with the faerie queen of time), probably gonna have every bandit in the kingdom fortifying his position.

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What does /pfg/ think of the social talents in Spheres of Might?

Read the Rhythm
As a move action, you can select one opponent within 40 ft. of yourself; you gain a +2 bonus on all opposed skill checks you make against that opponent for 1 minute. For every 4 base attack bonus you possess, this bonus increases by +2.

Shadowboxing
You can use your total Perform (dance) bonus in place of your Acrobatics or Intimidate bonuses. Any opponent which watches you make a Perform (dance) check outside of combat must make a Will save (using the result of your Perform (dance) check to determine the save DC) or be fascinated for 1 minute. Once an opponent has been affected by this talent, they cannot be affected by it again for 1 day.

Verbal Counter
While outside of combat, whenever an opponent makes a Bluff check against you while speaking, you can make a Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Sense Motive check opposed by their Bluff check; upon making a successful opposed check, you can force them to either tell the truth (as far as they know) about the subject or take a -5 on Charisma based skill checks against everyone who listened to them speak for 1 day.

I think that these are good additions to any skill specialist's repertoire. However, I must contest these being in Boxing. They would be better off as:

A. "General" talents that belong to no sphere.
B. Equipment talents, since Equipment is a catch-all for miscellaneous talents that fit nowhere else.
C. Talents of a new "Social" sphere, which would work just like Equipment. The sphere would give your choice of dedication benefit, and your choice of initial talent.

The three talents here have no relation to Boxing's mechanical niche, let alone synergy. It is nonsensical that if a courtly knight specialized in the bow or the greatsword wants to rebuke deceit, read a person's rhythm, or fascinate with dance... they first have to learn how to punch people. Opening these talents up to any martial would enable many more concepts.

>>51703571
All three of those thematically fit the sphere though, as they're all related to either boxing or countering. I'm not really sure the issue here. Some talents are where they are for thematic cohesion as much as mechanical cohesion.

I think Verbal Counter is the only one there that isn't something I'd innately consider a "boxing-related" thing.

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>>51703633

>Some talents are where they are for thematic cohesion
This is flimsy logic, because enough renaming can make any of these talents fit any sphere.

Observe:

Guardian Talent: Rise to the Challenge
As a move action, you can select one opponent within 40 ft. of yourself; you gain a +2 bonus on all opposed skill checks you make against that opponent for 1 minute. For every 4 base attack bonus you possess, this bonus increases by +2.

Lancer Talent: Polearm Dance
You can use your total Perform (dance) bonus in place of your Acrobatics or Intimidate bonuses. Any opponent which watches you make a Perform (dance) check outside of combat must make a Will save (using the result of your Perform (dance) check to determine the save DC) or be fascinated for 1 minute. Once an opponent has been affected by this talent, they cannot be affected by it again for 1 day.

Shield Talent: Parry Deceit
While outside of combat, whenever an opponent makes a Bluff check against you while speaking, you can make a Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Sense Motive check opposed by their Bluff check; upon making a successful opposed check, you can force them to either tell the truth (as far as they know) about the subject or take a -5 on Charisma based skill checks against everyone who listened to them speak for 1 day.

If these talents could conceivably be renamed so as to fit in any other sphere, then they should not be locked into Boxing.

>>51703571
I like the abilities themselves, but I don't like them being in combat spheres. Since we're getting spheres of skill shit now anyways, move this shit there. Stuff like "verbal counter" in Boxing is such a fucking stretch right now.

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>>51703790
I actually wrote this in response to people asking for more utility from spheres before I knew we were doing a skill section. It might get moved, I don't know, but that's the reason it exist in boxing at the moment.

Same with Read the Rhythm. I stand by shadowboxing though, that was based on Ippo.

>>51703714
>>51703571
I think that you're a massive goddamned tool who is upset because you currently have to dip Boxing to make another one of your special snowflake INT-stacking abominations.

"Oh look I can reflavour it so it has no flavour" is not a valid fucking argument. ANYTHING can be reflavoured to anything else.

>>51703714
That first one doesn't really make sense, I'm not sure how that makes sense guardian wise.

And are people known for dancing with polearms? Or is that even dumber?

The last one kind of works, but jesus, this is some fucking terrible reflavoring.

>>51703941
And you're a fucking idiot if you think it makes sense for fucking BOXING to have the ability to force truths out of people. Read The Rhythm and Shadowboxing can stay put, but seriously the lawyering ability is locked to boxing? That makes not a single lick of sense, and you're retarded if you defend that particular ability as-written.

>>51703981
Because it's related to countering, the counter sphere makes sense for it. Don't get mad because there's thematic connections that don't make you happy.

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I need some help building a character pfg.

Game type is heavy combat, little to no time between battles, and prep time for buffing is unlikely. Characters start at 6, no third party content allowed, 16k starting gold without spending limits, no custom races or any worth above 20 points, 2 traits and no flaws.

I always wanted to build a character who used a long spear and short sword. Using the Titan Mauler archetype for the barbarian, I can use a long spear with one hand at 2nd level, but here is where I run into problems mechanically. If I use the spear in one hand, I can't get the huge damage from building 2-hand barbarian. If I build two-weapon fighting, it becomes difficult to use the style effectively due to the reach vs close range weapon, not to mention two-weapon fighting sucks.

What should I do? Take two levels of barbarian and then stick to fighter for extra feats? Take quick draw to pull out the sword if I need it and build 2-hand barb normally?

>>51703978
>And are people known for dancing with polearms? Or is that even dumber?
Polearm Dancer is actually a decently-common variety of polearm and spear-users, if you include sources such as Path of War and the like, as well as videogames like the Tales Of series, Fire Emblem 8, any sort of Kung Fu movie (especially including Sun Wukong), etc.

>>51703981
>is locked to boxing
See, this is where you're an idiot like 2hu and ignoring the context. There is no skill sphere, no "general" sphere. There are only combat spheres right now, and the flavour for Verbal Counter makes sense. A boxer is always looking for a counterattack, and they can apply that training and mentality to the battleground of language.

Why do you people hate fun?

>>51703994
I'll get mad because the thematics don't make sense. A swordbreaker dagger makes just as much sense for it, a rapier makes just as much sense (and indeed, makes a better connection due to the term "Rapier Wit"). Boxing is quite possibly the least sensible style of combat for that kind of ability. Don't defend stupid shit just because someone you personally don't like calls out that it's stupid.

>>51704003
Yeah, I'm not using PoW to validate mechanics, mechanics should be validated before PoW before appearing in something else.

And that's something entirely different, although I could see it working in Open Hand as a Silat style performance even if shadow boxing makes sense.

>>51704016
I'm defending a verbal counter being tied to a countering sphere. Rapier Wit could be something else, maybe that's for the upcoming duelist sphere, but each one can do their own thing.

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>>51703939

>I stand by shadowboxing though, that was based on Ippo.
This arbitrarily locks martial performances into the Boxing sphere, as if it is impossible to perform flashy dances with a spear, or even an actual performance weapon like a scorpion whip.

>>51703978

>That first one doesn't really make sense, I'm not sure how that makes sense guardian wise.

I am basing the thematic link on the Guardian's challenge, which is about singling out an opponent. It is also about calling that opponent out, so really, Verbal Challenge could be justified under Guardian as well.

>The last one kind of works, but jesus, this is some fucking terrible reflavoring.
It is no more of a stretch than a "Verbal Counter."

>>51703714

Alright so all of these examples seem pretty forced to me. Not only that, with the logic you present, anything could conceivably be renamed to be anything. So, everyone should have access to everything, and we shouldn't bother with Spheres in the first place?

>>51703790
I like how first /pfg/ cries about no out of combat utility for a book that had a goal of mainly combat options.

Then they complain about the out of combat options presented, there's bitching.

>>51704013
>There is no skill sphere, no "general" sphere. There are only combat spheres right now
Then that clearly needs fixed.
>and the flavour for Verbal Counter makes sense. A boxer is always looking for a counterattack, and they can apply that training and mentality to the battleground of language.
No more and no less than a duelist can use their classical fencing training in an argument (and looking historically, many Spanish and Italian fencers were taught Mathematics and Greek-Style Debate). No more than a spearman can point out a flaw in arguments with their pointed and straightforward personality. No more than <WEAPON USER> can with <EXAMPLE>. You see the point here?

>>51704048
Oh geez it's almost like the talent is specifically not tied to a weapon so that other weapon users can still use it!

>>51704040
>So, everyone should have access to everything, and we shouldn't bother with Spheres in the first place?
No, the spheres have to have some consistency rather than trying to shoehorn concepts or fluff-themes into them.
>>51704060
>Oh geez it's almost like the talent is specifically not tied to a weapon so that other weapon users can still use it!
THEN WHY DO YOU NEED TO KNOW BOXING FOR IT?

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>>51704013

There is, in fact, a general sphere: Equipment.

Equipment has no non-dedication benefit. You simply choose an Equipment talent to start off with, and select a dedication ability as well.

I fail to see why there could not be a Social sphere that works the same way. You choose a Social talent to begin with, then pick a dedication ability.

If we are already to receive a noncombat-oriented Scout sphere for exploration and scouting, then why not a Social sphere as well?

>>51704070
Fuck off, 2hu. Get a trip already.

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>>51704033
There's other 'flashy performance' style things, this one is boxing's, and it may change later. I'm working to give each one its own identity, which seems like it's not something which you like.

Verbal counter was a thematic connection; just because you can draw other thematic connections does not make mine invalid. With what we do with spheres, it may be moved to something else, but I stand by Verbal Counter for boxing.

>>51704067
Fluff themes are a part of spheres too, I don't see an issue with them.

>>51704070
That may be something we do, as right now we're still experimenting with things.

>>51704040
it's almost like /pfg/ isn't one person!

>>51704070
Seriously, get a trip. Everything you say comes off in such a know it all fashion as to make any feedback you give impossible to implement; you aren't helping. Even when you have a good point, it comes off so smug as to make it impossible to implement, and all of this is being done off less than complete information like your 'ultimate guardian' which was just using the lancer sphere the way it was intended to be used. Get a fucking trip so we can ignore you.

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>>51704040

>Alright so all of these examples seem pretty forced to me.

No more than a counterattack-focused Boxer being able to fascinate people with Shadow Boxing, or that same Boxer being able to read an opponent and better... lie to them out of combat?

>Not only that, with the logic you present, anything could conceivably be renamed to be anything.
Not so; most sphere talents play off the mechanical specialties of the spheres in question, and synergize with them. Not so for Read the Rhythm, Shadow Boxing, Verbal Counter.

>>51704083

Here is my main point of contention. The Spheres of Might Kickstarter video advertises that the product enables a player to build their martial characters the way the player actually wants them to be built (presumably within reason).

So then, suppose I have a courtly and chivalrous knight who prizes honesty and hates deceit. Verbal Counter would be an amazingly fitting and useful talent for such a knight, and yet, I had more of a greatsword-oriented combat style for the character. Why must I first train the character in Boxing (expending a talent) just to gain access to Verbal Counter?

Spheres of Power, the predecessor of Spheres of Might, was actually much better in this regard. Sphere-specific drawbacks often allowed a character to sacrifice the "starter package" of the sphere and immediately take the talent the player actually wants.

Spheres of Might should have a similar setup to match Spheres of Power. This way, someone can take the Boxing sphere, choose a drawback for it that removes the initial package of Boxing, and then immediately take Verbal Counter.

>>51704070
There definitely shouldn't be a single Social sphere, else everyone ends up samey with it. Much better to have something like Persuasion, Deceit, Intellectual, etc.

>>51704148
I sincerely hope that these talents are reworked to be more tied to boxing in no small part just to watch you whine about being unable to make another game ruining trap

>>51704148
Jesus fuck, it's a pre alpha and you're trying to say it's not complete.

That's like saying "Why do I have to train in Lancer when my concept is a boxer who can attack multiple people like cleave? That's limiting my build because I don't want to take lancer!"

Because certain things fit certain packages, that's how it's going to work. And get a fucking trip.

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Also, on the topic of Boxing, the additional triggers from dedication should be considered part of counter punches; otherwise, it is too easy for an enemy to deny a Boxer their counter punch benefits.

>>51704151

I do not think a "Social" sphere would be too broad. They already have a catch-all "Equipment" sphere that covers everything from Armor Training to Finesse Fighting to Power Attack.

>>51704183

This logic does not hold. As it stands, Verbal Counter is locked into boxing. There is very little in-universe reason why calling someone out on deceit requires one to invest training in boxing first; that does not quite "fit certain packages."

If there were "general talents," social talents in Equipment, a Social sphere, or simply sphere-specific drawbacks, this would not be an issue.

>>51704212
Get a fucking trip.

>>51704083

Hey Jolly thanks for stopping by. I hope some of the posts tonight haven't frustrated you too much, they sure have frustrated me.

My bad if this has been asked already: are there going to be General and Sphere specific drawbacks for SoM?

Like a monk-ish drawback that literally stops me from using anything other than unarmed strikes, or like a dependency on wearing a specific type of armor or wielding a specific kind of weapon?

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>>51704148

To give an example, in Spheres of Power, this is the default ability of the Warp sphere:

>Teleport: You can spend a standard action to teleport yourself and up to a heavy load to any place within Close range. Alternately, you may teleport a touched willing creature and their carried equipment instead of yourself. You may spend a spell point to increase your teleport range to Medium instead of Close. You must have line of sight to your destination.

This is a very useful benefit. However, some players might not be interested in it, for whatever reason. That is why this sphere-specific drawback exists:

>Bender: (Requires Warp) You cannot teleport, you may only bend space. You must select a (space) talent with the bonus talent gained through this drawback.

By taking this drawback, with that one purchase of the Warp sphere, the player can skip straight ahead to a talent like Extradimensional Room or Extradimensional Space, which might fit whatever build and/or concept the player had in mind.

If there can be no "general" talents, social talents in Equipment, or a Social sphere, then Spheres of Might may as well implement a similar sphere-specific drawback subsystem.

>>51704238

Sphere-specific drawbacks would be highly appreciated. They would allow someone to, for example, take the Boxing sphere, sacrifice its "initial package," and skip straight ahead to Read the Rhythm, Shadow Boxing, and/or Verbal Counter.

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>>51704238
Yeah, we're planning on including those with this, although right now we have to get the current spheres to where we want them to be before we can focus on that. Also we have to make sure the Kickstarter has enough money to finance everything we want to do.

>>51704265
Yeah, those are planned, so...yeah.

>>51704033
>>51704148
>>51704212

Okay, so I really don't think you're actually considering the points anyone else is trying to make. It seems like you're immediately ignoring core ideas of the arguments presented to you, and constsntly regurgitating reasoning you have already presented several times.

I do not think this is constructive.

Would you kindly begin using a tripcode, so I can identify you and potentially ignore your posts when the discussion gets to this point?

I appreciate the effort of the feedback, but sometimes your responses get very taxing to read or skim over, especially when you keep saying the same thing.

So, if you put on a trip code, we can both be happy, and we can both do what we think is best.

>>51704302
You must be new here my son. There is no dealing with the resident Retard-goloid. Specially not during 4 in the fucking morning

>>51704322

I've been around only for a few months, and that was long enough for me to see 2hu drive multiple roll20 gms mad with walls question after question to the point it's gotten unreasonable. I've seen 2hu add huge additions of major setting elements to a game they hadn't been accepted to yet, without asking the GM first. And I saw when they got kicked from that SoM test game.

I'm just trying a slightly more gentle tactic because I need to believe if you give people a chance to understand, they just might.

>>51704355
>And I saw when they got kicked from that SoM test game.

Really regret that I missed seeing that.

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>>51704301
When's twang gonna be OP again jolly

>>51704355
There is a level of autism where you could be physically holding said autist by the head as you speak to them in very loud all caps bold font and it would still not get the message through.

I would just stop.

Really its basically like in one of those clam things. Build a pearl around the thing irritating you.

>>51704301

I see that you posted a Ragnorak Online Blacksmith with the filename Brawler Girl 2. This thematically doesn't make sense, and I feel like you're shoe horning the idea of a brawler onto this blacksmith merely because she's fondling her own bicep, as brawler girls are known to do.

However if you take a closer look at the pouches on her belt, you can see not only potions, but also cloth for cleaning weapons and other blacksmith related things.

Please don't force this girl to be a brawler just because she's spunky and likes to fondle her own bicep. She should be allowed to be whatever character concept she wants without being forced to pick a sphere unrelated to her mechanics.

Tl;dr, sorry for the terrible shitpost, but I need a way to stay awake right now.

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>>51704301

If there will be sphere-specific drawbacks, then I drop all complaints regarding Read the Rhythm, Shadow Boxing, Verbal Counter, because that single-handedly solves the issue in my eyes.

That said, Boxing's dedication still needs to count towards counter punch, or else it is too easy to deny a Boxer their signature ability.

>>51704302

I dislike using the name field.

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>>51704410
...okay, this made me smirk.

I'm working to get more spheres demo'd, we have some updates to shield to make, and three spheres I designed at the moment are being looked over (Barroom, Dual Wielding, Wrestling).

Spoiler alert: Wrestling lets you put on a fake wrestling show to gain money.

>>51704443
You DO know that you could fake fight with swords, spears, or other weapons right? Why would you limit this to only wrestling? I, an educated anon, must explain things to you because I am smarter than you.

Shitposting is the only thing keeping me up right now.

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>>51704355

This confuses me greatly.

>walls question after question
On multiple occasions in the past, I had been accepted into a game for my constant questions. The GM's reasoning was likewise

>add huge additions of major setting elements to a game they hadn't been accepted to yet, without asking the GM first
The GM had invited players to exercise creative control over the setting. I did exactly that. Upon sending a private message to the GM, they had actually praised me for taking the initiative to do so, and had mentioned that my contributions were reasonably acceptable (albeit in need of heavy editing).

At one point several months ago, I had been accepted into a game specifically because I took the initiative to preemptively world-build. I am still a player in that game to this day, although we are returning from a long hiatus.

>>51704443

If it interests you, I have been experimenting with low-level striker builds as of late. So far, I cannot see any reason to *not* just focus on Open Hand and spam Eye Gouger and Sweeping Kicks, using tension to make extra attacks for more Eye Gougers.

Blinded + prone is a crippling pair of conditions, if an unarmed-focused character can constantly attack while applying blinded + prone, there is little reason to do anything else.

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>>51704479

Again, this is not an issue if there are sphere-specific drawbacks, because then someone could take the Wrestling sphere, drop the "initial package" with a sphere-specific drawback, and then skip straight ahead to the talent they actually want.

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>>51704489
Eye gouge is personally not a talent I like much myself, I have thoughts of getting rid of it due to it being an option for dirty trick, and that's not territory which I'd like to double dip, especially with how strong blind is.

There's a solid change that'll be changed, as I don't like both of them being an option.

>>51704443

>Fake

Predetermined.

>>51704443
I'm interested to see how Wrestling combines with Lancer since impaling grapples the target,

Dual Wield might be nice as well, but I still have concerns about whether attack actions that make more than one attack work with Vital Strike/Greater Weapon of the Chosen.

Barroom is the improvised weapon sphere right? How will you be avoiding the "carry a ladder as primary weapon" problem most improvised weapon stuff currently has?

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>>51704521

If Eye Gouge is removed, then an optimized striker will settle for the next best thing: doing nothing but spamming Boxing's Knockout Punch together with Open Hand's Sweeping Kicks for prone + staggered.

Really, many of the more of Spheres of Might builds at the moment revolve around stacking together as many effects as you can on a single type of attack, and then spamming only that.

Also, past the first few levels, the best possible weapon configuration for unarmed builds becomes a punch dagger with Alternative Unarmed Training and Deadly Hand, for 18-20/×3 unarmed attacks.

Also, the blacksmith should be able to easily reforge the armor and weapons they sunder, or else their fighting style will revolve around breaking loot, especially magic loot.

>>51704517
I can't wait to see you throw a shitfit when it turns out that you actually have to be good at Wrestling for it.

>>51704489

And multiple times that overwhelming amount of questions has been a detriment to you. It has worked for you sometimes, but you have all the proof needed to see it not work in your favor st all. It's just too much sometimes. It's okay to try a different tactic every now and then. Maybe on your next application you can limit yourself to asking only 7 questions regarding character creation, max. Consider it a challenge to yourself in character building.

And, you have a point on being proactive when it comes to worldbuilding. Adding content is good, since whatever doesn't fit can always be taken out. So good job on that.

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>>51704529
Pic related

>>51704531
They will have some interaction, but there is a specific talent that relates back to impale:

Hammerlock
As long as your martial focus is dedicated to the Wrestling sphere, the penalties for being grappled by you increase by -1 (this does not stack with the impaled condition); for every 4 base attack bonus you possess, these penalties increase by an additional -1.

As for barroom:

During combat, if you wield the same improvised weapon for more than 1 round, for each additional round you wield it, its effective size is reduced by 2 steps.

>>51704564
There's always going to be a most optimal thing to do, regardless of the system. We're attempting to give multiple options for different situations but if you focus on one thing, you're going to be good at that one thing.

Why not wait until you've seen more before considering the 'ultimate set up' for a class?

>>51704586
It wouldn't be the first time just skimming into the parts of a combat style you wanted is vastly superior to actually focusing all-out on it, in pathfinder, though.

Remember way back, who it was that was better at unarmed combat than the unarmed combat class?

>>51704564
Honesty time; why the fuck don't you try developing something? Seriously, your hobbies involve this impossibly focused consideration of someone else's content, and yet I don't see you even homebrew? I mean shit, DHB's getting published because of Jolly, but you? You just kinda sit here and don't add anything of value to the conversation aside from this generally upsetting air of egotism which doesn't even help. So why not make your own shit if you're the smartest fucker around?

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>>51704586

Then that would be inconsistent with Read the Rhythm, Shadow Boxing, and Verbal Counter, none of which actually require you to be good at unarmed attacks or counter punches.

>>51704600

>We're attempting to give multiple options for different situations but if you focus on one thing, you're going to be good at that one thing.
If the product wants to encourage people to actually mix up their fighting styles, then there should be rock-solid incentives to do so; it should not present a wide swath of situational, mutually exclusive, horizontal upgrades alongside direct power upgrades like "and now, for two talents, your lucerne hammer is now a 3d6/19-20/×3 weapon."

>Why not wait until you've seen more before considering the 'ultimate set up' for a class?
Because we are supposed to offer feedback and suggestions based on what is currently being presented. By this logic, it is fruitless to try to playtest the various Spheres of Might, let alone consider how they interact, simply because they are incomplete.

>>51704600

Yep, super real to me!

I mean, I remember when I saw the Undead Voodoo Sorcerer Druid fight against his Demonic Pyromancer Girlfriend Murdering brother. I'd never for a moment wondered if it was all legitimate!

Spheres of Combat/Spheres of Magic hybrid class when?

>>51704521
Honestly, 2hu's got a point on the single-trick focusing thing - currently you're rewarded with them most effects by stacking talents on one ability.

Would it be possible to encourage people to use different abilities by targeting different weaknesses of an enemy and comboing those together? Like, one ability allows you to deal with armoured guys reliably (like grappling, to hit touch AC) allowing you to hit with a followup strike, and a different opening catching people off guard for hitting flat footed AC and following up with other hits, while a third breaches natural armour more easily?

Some sort of opening strike and then power strike. At least that'd give incentive not to use the same moves over and over and make the player think.

>>51704647

Or even just have a progressive bonus to resist based on how many times you've been hit with it in the past minute. So you can pull it off 1-2 times against a guy who's good at resisting or semi-reliably against someone weak to it but spamming the same trick over and over results in 'I've seen this already. You won't get me with the steel chair again'

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>>51704628
Neither of those upgrades listen pitches you into a specific style though.

And I'm not saying don't give feedback, I'm telling you that when you come in here saying 'this is the end all, be all', it just seems condescending. I'm listening to your feedback, I am, but the negative tone to all of it makes it difficult to continue hearing it.

>>51704635
If Katie Vick wasn't real, I don't know anything anymore.

And there's a good chance the troubadour will take that spot.

>>51704647
I'm not arguing that they don't have a point, and right now we're working on providing different benefits. Personally, it's why I want to get the full playtest out as soon as possible so that we can be sure you're aware of the full scope of things. While we appreciate the feedback on what's given, it's difficult to take all of your feedback when we're aware of things in the draft doc which answer your questions but aren't finished yet.

We're going to do our best to provide more options and reason to use them as we can, but we want focusing on 1-2 spheres to be as viable as focusing on 5.

>>51704600

Hey, so I actually do have questions about Knockout Punch.

Since I must use the Attack action to benefit from this talent, I'm only able to attempt this once per round, right? It might get a bit overwhelming forcing too many saves for the same effect from a target in the same turn. It's a lot of rolling... Although I might be too much in a 5e mindset

>>51704685

>If Katie Vick wasn't real, I don't know anything anymore.

Oh yeah. Totally real.

Or at least, my screaming bloodied eyes told me the scene with HHH in the funeral home was totally real.

>>51704675
...god dammit, I like this. This is getting pitched to the group. Thanks a lot!

>>51704686
Yeah, as of the moment you could only attempt it once per round unless you use some of the stuff that lets you use it as an attack of opportunity.

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>>51704606

Spheres of Might encourages "actually focusing all-out on it" at the moment, but in the most boring way possible: stacking as many talents as possible onto a single good trick.

A low-level sentinel has very little reason *not* to take Combat Reflexes and blow three of their talents on Heavy Arms Training, Critical Hammer, and Polearm Master, thereby earning for themselves a 3d6/19-20/×3 with fully threatening reach with which to murder enemies.

>>51704598

I do not understand why asking questions regarding mechanical topics that directly concern a game is something to be avoided. It is very important to establish a common mechanical "wavelength" between the players and the GM, because different players and different GMs have different ideas on what is considered "appropriate" in a game.

>>51704685

>Neither of those upgrades listen pitches you into a specific style though.
That is not my point.

My point is that rather than actually expand a character's combat repertoire, they simply rig the numbers of the character. Raw combat numbers are not something martials were lacking (though of course, more is always welcome, because it means better efficiency at actually killing enemies), so why do we suddenly have talents like Heavy Arms Training and Critical Hammer to let people wield 3d6/19-20/×3 lucerne hammers?

I do not mean to sound condescending, nor do I mean to express myself with a surplus of negativity. Is there anything I might to do adjust this?

>>51704710
>>51704675
I feel like this would bog down combat more than it needs to be and never get used unless the bonus was very large. Similar to how you can technically be counter-tripped if you fail a trip attempt, but almost no one ever remembers to do it.

>>51704710
Why not a bonus that applies to each first attack? Feels nicer than a malus happening. Throw in a small damage boost to make it feel like a better choice to vary things up.

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>>51704710

>...god dammit, I like this. This is getting pitched to the group. Thanks a lot!

Rather than impose a *penalty* for reattempting the same trick more than once, it would be better to give a *bonus* the first time you use a certain talent (whether in the combat, or against a specific enemy).

This way, you would effectively be echoing D&D 4e's encounter powers.

Even then, however, you still run into various Equipment talents being overwhelming effective, passive "make my numbers for killing people bigger" effects.

>>51704733
>Similar to how you can technically be counter-tripped if you fail a trip attempt, but almost no one ever remembers to do it.
Because unless you're specced into tripping you're unlikely to trip the goddamn combat monster with good strength and dex to be able to trip people.

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>>51704733
I was thinking a -4 at first.

>>51704740
>>51704752
I'm not as big a fan as a bonus, but it's worth considering. I'm thinking possibly a positive and a negative; a +2 the first time you use it, a -2 every other time you use it.

>>51704773
Per enemy, or per encounter?
If it's per encounter, then not having the malus on followup rider attacks would be good too.

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>>51704791
Deciding that at the moment, but it's being pitched to the group. I'm thinking you only take the minus after using it on an opponent, but since everyone you're battling saw your trick, you only get the +2 on the first use of it in combat, with this having a possible scaling every 5 BAB.

>>51704731

It's not that asking questions is bad, it's the fact that you have to ask so many to determine what is "appropriate" for any given game. Most games already provide guidelines on what is frowned upon, and typically when you ask more than 7-10 questions, it's you looking for ways to push those guidelines and boundaries.

It just seems like you ask questions to push as close to "inappropriate" as possible as opposed to just asking what you need to make a concept that interests you.

Another point is that the vast majority of players don't need to ask more than 10 questions to make what they want. Have you ever wondered why you must ask that many and more questions to work put their concept, and they do not?

>>51704801
That's a fair bit of bookkeeping. Still, glad you got some interesting idea out of it!

>>51704752
>>51704731
>>51704628
>>51704564
>>51704489
>>51704438
>>51704265
>>51704212
>>51704148
>>51704070
>>51704033
>>51703714
>>51703571
GET A TRIP

>>51703996
Can anyone help with this?>>51703996
>>51703996

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>>51704812
I'm not arguing that, which is why it might just be +2 at first and -2 all other times, but right now having some sort of fatigue on them, maybe even just ' you can't use them two rounds in a row aside from passives' might be needed. I'll agree that right now stacking is an issue, which is something we'd like to change here.

Seeing mythic wizards get like 46 intelligence without even trying, is there even a point to utilizing spell perfection for the purposes of increasing save DC?

Is spell focus even a thing other than for meeting prerequisites at this point?

>>51704822
Honest question: why make something that isn't going to last half a session in a combat heavy game?

>>51704822
Unchained barbarian provides a flat damage bonus rather than a strength bonus and suits two-weapon fighting quite well.

That said, your idea is not going to be very strong. If the game really is combat heavy, you will need to at least try to optimize.

>>51703996

Fuck, man. No 3pp is a bit demoralizing for this. If it were allowed Prodigious Two Weapon Fighting would have fixed you up.

Since you can't do that, do you have a way to quickly switch between weapons?

Also, are there feat tax rules in play?

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>>51704620

1. I seem to be much more capable of finding flaws and frailties, rather than actually creating anything new.

2. I do have development credits in a full-fledged, professionally-published RPG system, Strike! That said, my contributions there were absolutely minimal due to me entering development extremely late, and I am not a fan of large portions of the system, including various combat mechanics and the entirety of the noncombat rules.

3. I absolutely detest Pathfinder as a system and cannot fathom actually producing anything for it; I would much rather help those who are writing for it anyway.
Currently, I am in campaigns of Strike!, Kamigakari, Godbound, and a few PbtA games (all of which are deeply flawed in many ways I can point out), but mechanics-oriented discussion about such games is very sparse here in /tg/. On the other hand, I can turn to this very general thread for a constant source of mechanical discussion.

>>51704773
>>51704833

Using both bonuses and penalties seems like a poor idea to me. It would be a total hassle to track both +2s and -2s. It would be more intuitive to track either a major source of bonus or a major source of penalty, but not both a minor bonus and a minor penalty. People will often forget about the latter.

>>51704803

>Most games already provide guidelines on what is frowned upon
Yes, but they often fail to touch upon subjects such as Fey Obedience (Magdh), blood money, various interactions between Spheres of Power and Paizo's core magic rules, and so on.

>it's you looking for ways to push those guidelines and boundaries.
When I build a character for an extremely rules-heavy game such as Pathfinder, I handle things in a bottom-up fashion. I envision the most optimal character I can create for the campaign at hand (usually some sort of full initiator, spherecaster, or wizard, depending on allowed sources and the starting level), then build a character at the highest possible optimization point allowed by the GM.

>>51704889
>1. I seem to be much more capable of finding flaws and frailties, rather than actually creating anything new.
>2. I do have development credits in a full-fledged, professionally-published RPG system, Strike! That said, my contributions there were absolutely minimal due to me entering development extremely late, and I am not a fan of large portions of the system, including various combat mechanics and the entirety of the noncombat rules.
>3. I absolutely detest Pathfinder as a system and cannot fathom actually producing anything for it; I would much rather help those who are writing for it anyway.
>Currently, I am in campaigns of Strike!, Kamigakari, Godbound, and a few PbtA games (all of which are deeply flawed in many ways I can point out), but mechanics-oriented discussion about such games is very sparse here in /tg/. On the other hand, I can turn to this very general thread for a constant source of mechanical discussion.

You hate Pathfinder, yet you still blight our threads and our games? Before this I thought you were just stupid, but now you're a certified grade-A piece of shit. Die in a fire.

>>51704949
A good half of the people in this general hate Pathfinder.

>>51704889
>2hu hates Pathfinder
This explains everything. He just wants to watch it burn.

>>51704864
The only way I can think to switch weapons quickly is quick draw.

I duno what feat tax rules are, but if it's like, "You get this feat free because reasons." then no. All feats must be paid in full.

>>51704889

>Yes, but they often fail to touch upon subjects such as Fey Obedience (Magdh), blood money, various interactions between Spheres of Power and Paizo's core magic rules, and so on.

My response to this will go hand in hand with my response to your bottom up philosophy.

Making the most optimized character possible that's still allowed by the gm is not really... Optimal for most play groups. It might be what works for you, but it will often clash with the mentalities of others. Not only that, many RPGs are meant for you to build your mechanics around a concept. The majority of people who buy or back SoM will be looking to make concepts, not optimized mechanics then slapping a concept on top.

So, if you want to offer feedback for the product, perhaps you should keep that in mind.

Even if you disagree with ALL of what I just said, you should still just try to not build bottom up fully optimized mechanics, at least for a few games. I can send you more reasons for why you should later, but for now keep this in mind:

You will often be in a game where 4 of the other players do NOT want to fully optimize to make their characters. You fully optimizing puts burden on them to keep up with you, forcing them to put a level of effort they were not interested in. When this happens, it's you who should adapt to them, since they are the majority.

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>>51705036
This man speaks wisdom.

Optimizing as much as you can is a poor first step, since 'how optimized can we be' is a nigh-impossible thing to actually define outside of exhaustively banning things. Things which, on their own, may not even be problems.

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>>51705036
This actually touches upon a design theory I've had called the "3 book build". It goes into PF but really applies to all games.

If your 'broken' build takes less than 3 books to break, there is almost certainly something wrong with the content which you have printed, and you should look at what you've written. If it takes MORE than 3 books to build a book, said content is less broken even if it results in the same thing due to the amount of play ingenuity required.

If you're combining things from more and more sources, the sheer amount of options permissable in a given game can cause something that in and of itself isn't broken to be broken.

While as a dev I strive to avoid making something that can become broken with all books, this isn't really possible. No matter what, there is going to be problems due to unforeseen combinations and new content.

So really, a 7 book character being broken says FAR less to me about my content being unbalanced than it does about the 6+ books that were required to make it broken.

If you want to show something's broken, use as few books as you can, because once you pass 3 books, I start to wane. Also if you're going to do this, list how many books you're using to help gauge this yourself.

>>51705036
>Making the most optimized character possible that's still allowed by the gm is not really... Optimal for most play groups. It might be what works for you, but it will often clash with the mentalities of others.

I'm fairly sure he realizes this, but continues to try and force himself onto tables that clearly aren't suited to his play style. Because of autism, I suppose. People with autism don't do empathy very well. They can't tell when they're aggravating others.