If I wanted a system where >Homebrewing custom races for the

>>51655895
git gud at 3.pf
What?

>>51655895
>Swordfighting is actually interesting
>Dynamic monster fighting
What do you actually mean by this

>>51656142
abilities that either
>move characters on the grid
>apply debuffs
>apply buffs to allies
>the correct action requires an IQ above room temperature to identify
along those lines

I want to actually think about the combat, rather than just watching numbers go down as I full attack every round.

>>51656180
That has nothing to do with "Swordfighting is actually interesting"

sounds like you want D&D 4e

File: GURPS Character Creation.jpg (56KB, 590x394px) Image search: [Google]

56KB, 590x394px

>>51655895
D&D 4e
Or GURPS

Nothing in D&D is going to give you want you want.

>>51656180
>move characters on the grid

4e did this. It is mostly obnoxious and damages players agency by "force moving" people around. Usually it's boring.

>apply debuffs

These are annoying as fuck to track except in single-monster encounters. You've clearly never DMed if you think otherwise. Fuck 4e and its hordes of status effects and ongoing damage.

>apply buffs to allies

Similar, yet a bit less obnoxious since each player has a single character to keep track of.

>the correct action requires an IQ above room temperature to identify

Yes, you are so smart and clever for getting good at a game and learning its tactics. That definitely shows you have a 130+ IQ and you are very smart and people should respect you because you think good thoughts.

Seriously fuck off. If you think D&D (all editions) didn't require some modicum of strategy, you clearly never played in a challenging campaign.

GURPS actually has all of those. The last part is more iffy, but they put out a Pyramid article detailing fighting huge creatures with options for running in between their legs and such.

File: 1438971469318.jpg (702KB, 1858x1588px) Image search: [Google]

702KB, 1858x1588px

>>51656332

>>51656318
>t. butthurt pathfag

File: classic blunder.jpg (55KB, 625x305px) Image search: [Google]

55KB, 625x305px

>>51655895
im 83% positive that i walked into this thread because of that picture

>>51656318
Are you measuring room temperature in kelvin or some shit?

>>51656180
4e. I'm not being sarcastic, ignore detractors and play it without constantly bitching about how you don't like that it reminds you mechanically of a computer game. There are like zero rules for roleplay, which means with a good roleplay group you actually end up with interesting stories.

>>51656142
>>Swordfighting is actually interesting
I would assume he means it is more in depth than "I attack with my sword."

>>51655895
Fantasy Craft has all of those things.

>Homebrewing custom races for the setting isn't a total crap shoot
All the races in FC were designed from the outset according to a point-build system, which has been reverse-engineered by the fans and used extensively for homebrew.

>Swordfighting is actually interesting
LOADS of different ways to build a martial, and options to use in combat. Each kind of weapon has its own distinct fighting style due to the weapon-specific feat chains, and special maneuvers like tripping and feinting don't require you to blow half your character resources just to be competent with them. And the action economy is revamped to give you more tactical flexibility. It's vastly more interesting than just sitting there full attacking.

>Players have magic items, but not spell slinging
Spell slinging is an option in the system, but it functions just fine without it, and you can have magic items without spellcasting. Magic items are pretty rare and precious by default, but if you want them to be more common that's definitely an option.

>Dynamic monster fighting
See above re: combat options.

>>51656332
>>51656218
>>51656196
D&D 4e is horseshit, it's overly built toward combat and the combat really isn't that fun, the focus is on "interesting" consequences to attacks but most of them are just obnoxious extra bookkeeping for the DM that, mixed with the doubling of hit points, makes for slower dragged out combat.

GURPS is similarly crap but less so.

>>51656384
Except Pathfinder is also shit.

>>51656415
Are you measuring in celsius? It's irrelevant to your lack of argument either way, so feel free to continue the pointless diversion from how wrong you are.

>>51656513
What is your problems with GURPS when meeting OP's qualifications?

>teaching a friend GURPS
>he wants to play a high-powered fantasy game, so he makes a 400-point sword wizard
>puts one point in a bunch of spells just to meet prerequisites for "the good ones"
>constantly talks about how powerful his character is
>tell him a wimpy 100-point adventurer with a staff could kick his shit in
>he doesn't believe me
>set up a duel between his dude and an old character of mine
>I get the drop since he didn't buy up Basic Speed
>rush in with an All-Out Determined attack to his groin and smack him in the nuts
>he's got -8 shock so he can't do much
>he still thinks he's hot shit and tries to light my clothes on fire
>fails of course, wasting FP
>I know that if I let him get an attack off, I'm dead. His sword will pretty quickly break my staff, and if he puts enough FP into a spell I'm toast. I have to All-Out Attack because I'm dead either way
>his Dodge is pretty high and I got lucky on that first attack
>I decide to try an All-Out Double Attack
>Throw the first one as a Feint, which passes. Second attack he gets smacked in the arm, breaking it.
>he's got -4 shock, but is now pissed. Tries All-Out Defense at my suggestion.
>I AOD
>he finally has a turn
>wants to blast me, but throws a fit when I point out his most proficient spell would hit him at this range
>creates a wall of fire between us
>I vault over it
>he keeps doing this until he's at 1FP
>finally just shove him into the fire and he burns to death

All told took maybe 5 minutes. Once you learn GURPS, it's really quick and has the most detailed combat of any mainstream system.

>>51656760
>>I vault over it
>>he keeps doing this until he's at 1FP
>>finally just shove him into the fire and he burns to death
What a great way to deal with caster supremacy

>>51656513
>4e combat isn't fun
I disagree, I find it to be the most fun out of any edition, just particularly game-y.

>overly built toward combat
It's just not built for roleplaying at all. That's actually a good thing if you play with people who are really solid roleplayers. With most people the lack of rules leads to dumb bullshit and murdohobory. I straight up play FATE: CORE using 4e for combat only.

>>51655895
>>Homebrewing custom races for the setting isn't a total crap shoot
DnD4e
>>Swordfighting is actually interesting
DnD4e
>>Players have magic items, but not spell slinging
DnD4e, by revamping item powers (daily->encounter, encounter->at-will)
>>Dynamic monster fighting
DnD4e

>But muh roleplay rules
If you can't roleplay without the system telling you what you can or cannot do, you can't roleplay at all. DnD4e sheets have all the information you need to roleplay correctly.
>But there's no [insert skill that doesn't rely on mechanics, like cooking]
Just add it, it doesn't change shit to the rules

File: heeeeeey.gif (797KB, 583x328px) Image search: [Google]

797KB, 583x328px

>>51657586
This guy gets it

>>51657586

Started with 4e, never left it (to DM stuff myself, that is)

Savage Worlds has pretty OK sword fights, and you don't have to have wizards in it (and this wont compromise your ability to use magic items with it). Not so sure how it does on monster fighting.

>>51655895
If she doesn't put the rest of that armor on she is going to get greened.

>>51657713
>implying they wouldn't just take the armor off

>>51656409
for me it's 100%

Nechronica

File: 1455400873681.jpg (208KB, 806x1000px) Image search: [Google]

208KB, 806x1000px

>>51657713
Gilgamesh would be level 18-20 with a trillion epic-class items with effects of the character's choice. Not sure she has to worry about gobs.

>>51656513
Strike! combat is like 4e, but removed the minor bookkeeping stuff.

Also pretty easy to brew in.

File: words of wisdom.jpg (23KB, 640x368px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 640x368px

>>51658077
you sure ?
Gilgamesh lost to this guy after all

>>51658129
UBW is essentially an epic-level spell though. It's Genesis, except it creates an infinite demiplane right away, and UBW specifically hardcounters Gilgamesh.
Look Nasu doesn't make any sense okay, Servants are supposed to be like orders of magnitude faster than humans and even E strength is ten times the muscle power of your average man, Gilgamesh has B strength or something making him 10 000 times stronger than your average man, but Shirou somehow doesn't pulp on impact. Nobody knows.

>>51655895
HEMAfag here.

Give me a couple of years I'm working on a comprehensive system that isn't too complicated. Think something between rolemaster and dark heresy.

>wide range of different attacks to employ in different situations
>can elect to fight defensively / offensively / get a feel for your opponent
>lots of situational modifiers to things
>all weapons viable they just have different niches in combat as per real life (spears aren't shit for example, let me tell you something about spears, they work, very well)
>different armours mean different things, you get puffed and hot in full plate for example, lamelar and softer armours can stop sword strokes well but get damaged really easily and start falling apart

Fuck I can't be bothered writing all this shit out but I'm doing my research, for example I'm asking military personel about what they think a realistic carry weight is (spread well) before you become noticeably encumbered. Which is, about a third of your body weight, and the upper limit of whats reasonable being about two thirds of your body weight. Asking things such as this got me thinking about factoring in body weight / size as well as strength and fitness into carry capacity.

Also my own experience in HEMA (using full weight steel gear) tells me some things about how weapons handle, and what can and can't be done. For example, circling around enemies (for example moving around or between people to get "flanking" is far more likely to grant you enemy an "AOO" than going in and out of their "threat radius." Going in an out of someones threat radius is something that's really common in skirmishes for example. Or another thing, a weapon like a two handed axe is a big scary threat weapon with loads of reach and it's something you need to pay attention too because it's fast, hits hard, can pin / break spears and fuck your shield up.

Does anyone know a system that takes all these sorts of things into account?

(Worry not, will simply everything.)

>>51656318
>damages players agency by "force moving" people around
What?

>>51658152

I think your scales are a bit off. They're superhuman, but nothing has really shown they're /that/ superhuman.

>>51658327
They're [supposed] to be superhuman, but nothing shows it to be so.

>>51658336
Most of the issue comes from the fact that skills and stats mean almost nothing to anything but the F/GO mobile game. The only skills that have ever come up are presence concealment, saber classes (and sabers specific) magic resistance, and sabers intuition thing. And mad enhancement, i guess, but thats less a skill and more a state.

Most of their superhumanity comes from being so thoroughly skilled above a regular dude that they shouldn't ever lose to a fuccboi. Unfortunately, Fate is a VN about a dude getting laid with several different chicks across several different distinct timelines, and things like that go out the window.

>>51658373
Protection from Arrows and Disengage is actually why Cu manages to fend off Gilgamesh for twelve hours.

>>51658401
when was this?

>>51658427
Happens off screen in Fate route, I think.

>>51658511
Neato. Still, thats applied usage of experience, which is what skills should be. Not a coded stat that only ever comes up in name only.

Passives like mad enhancement and sabers magic resist are neat things to stat, but actual skills shouldn't be.

>>51658401
Cu was also punching Shinji in the face after he stabbed himself in the heart directly.

Fucking Battle Continuation, man.

>>51658539
Protection from Arrows and Disengage are actual skills, arrows literally bounce off Cu and even fired Houtengeki only give normal flesh wounds while Disengage basically turns back time. The thing about Skills is that they reflect how they were in real life by making it a skill, because the Holy Grail literally cannot handle how good they were in real life and can't summon them at full power because it lacks the power needed.
Gilgamesh isn't even a proper magus, he's a warrior king, but in GO while he's actually alive he summons no less than six servants, one of whom is Merlin, off his own reserves. Someone like Cu in real life would be at least as fast as a hypersonic jet while Medea's nukes would've levelled half the town.

>>51658561
I think you missed my point. While its neat to codify skills like that, its a system that overall hurts in cases besides passives and noble phantasms.

For example, protection from arrows. Neat skill, but so utterly mundane it shouldn't be mentioned and he should just do it.

On top of this, ranks mean nearly nothing because experience will often trump overpowered noble phantasms, such as with vlad using his ability to beat someone literally invincible. Not to mention, there are noble phantasms above a literal world breaker like Ea.

>>51658588
>it shouldn't be mentioned
It's not mundane though.
In Cu's case, you can stab him with an arrow or a sword, but throw it at him and it bounces off.

>>51658588
>Neat skill, but so utterly mundane...

It blocks shot from Gilgamesh.

>>51658607
And? lancelot did it with gils own sword and no codified skill involved.

>>51658599
while i admit the overall effect is powerful, it still shouldn't be a codified "Skill". The more things are codified and boiled down, the less things will make sense when by all rights one person should win but another does. Let me phrase it this way. If his protection thing took the form of just parrying projectiles, it would overall have had the same effect.

In the end, its easier to simply assume these heroes have the experience to do that kind of thing than to try to codify it as a skill and end up with shit like gilgamesh losing to fuccboi mcfakeass.

>>51658561

What if Human!Gilgamesh was teleported to the future and had Servant!Gilgamesh as his servant? Would the Nasuverse be able to handle the Mesh'? Would that even be possible?

>>51658646
>no codified skill
Eternal Arms Mastery is a skill and Knight of Honor is a NP anon.

>the less thing will make sense
They're not supposed to make sense. The Holy Grail War is a system and a really fucked one at that. The entirety of FSN can be reduced to about three themes and one of them is 'the War, the Grail, and the Holy Grail War are lies'. If these guys fought in real life it'd be a shitstomp in Gil's favor, with or without his Gate of Babylon, because he's motherfucking old as shit and therefore orders of magnitude more ripped than Heracles.

>>51658654
It's possible, Prelati summons himself in Strange Fake by using his own body as a catalyst.

>>51658677
First, i already said passives and NP are a different thing.

Second, why does everything need a fucking skill? These people are fucking heroes of old. Legends in their own right. Most of these things you could just assume from who they fucking are.

Lancelot for example. He was the strongest knight of the round table, so of course he could fucking use just about any weapon. Using it as a NP though is something entirely separate.

>>51658707
>First, i already said passives and NP are a different thing.
But anon almost every skill we've listed besides Disengage are completely passive

>legends in their own right
They're not actually summoned as such thoug. They're summoned as pale shadows of their actual self and even the NPs, passives, and so on are just things that the Grail uses to better classify the system to make it possible to summon these guys at all.

>lancelot...so of course...
Except the reason he has Knight of Honor is due to a special myth where he defeated someone with a tree branch. He never used most of the weapons he used against Gilgamesh but the legend extends it.

>Dynamic monster fighting
What does that even mean? Can you not have something adjust tactics without a rule that allows you to?

>>51656512
This.

>>51655895
3.5 with a good DM.

>>51659017
Why not play 4e or 5e with a good DM instead?

Ishtar teleports into space and turns a star into an arrow then fires is at people in FGO, I don't think you should think too hard about reality when reading a chuuni sex game written by a horny teenage Japanese eggplant.
The first and only rule of Nasuverse is Rule 0.

>>51658093
Stop shilling Strike!

Why does /tg/ keep shilling Strike!?

>>51655895
Except for the magica l realm items what you want is song of swords

>>51659017
>Swordfighting is actually interesting
>Not spell slinging
>3.5

get tha fuck out

>>51655895
Anima: Beyond Fantasy.

>>51658152
1. Gilgamesh doesn't fight Shirou seriously except after he's already made a fatal mistake.

2. Gilgamesh isn't actually very good at fighting, especially in a melee.

3. Shirou is actually very good at fighting, as he taps into Archer's skills which are vastly superior to Gilgamesh's.

4. Shirou's body is made of swords, and he has Avalon protecting him. Read the VN and you'll see how frequently Shirou breaks bones and gets internal injuries it's every fight.

>>51655895

GURPS is what you're looking for, friend.

>>51660331
I lost count of the number of times Shirou dies but carries on fighting anyway. He breaks every bone in his body, loses internal organs and has blood pouring out of him but he just PUNCH HARDER KID YAMATODAMASHIIs through it because Nasu.

>>51660331
> Shirou is actually very good at fighting

Only under the caveat that he got trained by saber halfway through.

>>51660360
I like GURPS but it hardly has interesting swordplay.

>>51660369
Shirou is after all manly enough to become a counter guardian and heroic spirit.

>>51660381
>manly

Hardly. He's got massive plot armor on account of it being an adaptation of a porn game.

>>51657639
SW has okay combat, though will have to deal with the fact that it assume you are using minis and your players know all of their options.

>>51660370
He's not portrayed as super competent in the route where that matters, though. Fate has him working through his problems without really winning battles himself.

The reason he gets gud is because he adapts Archer's style, in UBW that's because of their fighting, in Heaven's Feel it's because he gets Archer's arm surgically attached and has access to his memories.

>>51660410
Thats the thing. he's never portrayed as super competent. Rather, his entire storyline from him to archer is entirely based around incompetence to the point of going back in time to kill himself.

His manliest portrayal is in fuckin kaleid of all things. Where he drops the hero bullshit and he's just like "Fuck this shit, fuck you, fuck everything, i'm protecting miyu"

>>51658301
I don't know man

by that logic losing hp damages player agency because it means they can't play anymore

>>51656318
>You've clearly never DMed if you think otherwise.
Or you're just absolutely fucking terrible at it.

>>51660443
He's constantly manly, even when he's making pancakes in an apron, I would go gay for Shirou in a heartbeat.

His 'incompetence' is no barrier to his justice, that's what masculinity is all about.

>>51660171
"Don't." - Nasu

>>51660331
>1. Gilgamesh doesn't fight Shirou seriously except after he's already made a fatal mistake.
Shouldn't matter with the baseline stat difference between them. Shirou is not running on the strength of a Roman Legion.

>2. Gilgamesh isn't actually very good at fighting, especially in a melee.
So they say but he shows he's more than capable of actually using the effects of the NPs he wields in Fate route, and again the stat difference should be enough.

>3. Shirou is actually very good at fighting, as he taps into Archer's skills which are vastly superior to Gilgamesh's.
Stat difference.

>4. Shirou's body is made of swords
Only in HF anon

>and he has Avalon protecting him.
Avalon is not there because Saber is not there, Saber even disappears entirely halfway through the fight if I remember correctly.

>Read the VN
I did, it doesn't make any more sense. I understand the point eggplant is making but it still doesn't make any sense. As soon as Saber is out of the picture Gilgamesh should've killed Shirou literally instantly for no other reason than their basic stat difference.

File: 2fb6ad0ed6c1db2e46540a4e6e2e0086.png (3MB, 1080x3386px) Image search: [Google]

3MB, 1080x3386px

>>51660443
>"Fuck this shit, fuck you, fuck everything, i'm protecting miyu"
Pretty sure that's the average response to this

>>51660498
>Shouldn't matter with the baseline stat difference between them.
The stats of Servants are their maximum potential, not their minimum. Gilgamesh absolutely did not take Shirou seriously until after his arm was off, at which point the fight was over.

>>51660499
Perhaps. But he was doing it well before that.

>>51660486
A cardboard cutout thats relying on women several times stronger and more competent than him is not what i'd call competent. Or manly. Also, his justice ended up backfiring on him to the point of going back in time as a magical servant to kill himself, so points lost there as well.

Most of his "manliness" comes from relying on avalon as well. It takes a big man to survive shit with a magic sheathe healing all your wounds.

You want manly? Fucking rider in fate/zero is manly. Shirou? he's somewhere between a near retarded lawful stupid optimist and a nihilistic emo idiot.

There's only so much plot armor a man can take before he just says "Fuck it"

>>51660547
Gilgamesh took Shirou seriously as soon as he decided to draw Ea, at which point he should've gained teleportion levels of speed compared to Shirou.

>>51660552
>Fucking rider in fate/zero is manly
>BROOOOO
No anon. Cu is manly. BRO is a retard.

>>51660567
>cu is manly
>the one servant constantly ridiculed for dying like a bitch in everything
>to the point they made several gags about it in carnival phantasm

Nah.

>>51660560
1. By that point, Shirou was fighting at Archer's level. It's also probable that Archer was possessing him during that final encounter given his sudden appearance afterwards.

2. There was no gap to close where speed would have mattered significantly. Ea needed to charge for its ability and there wasn't enough time for that.

3. Gilgamesh was surprised, he was hardly ready for what Shirou did to him.

>>51660578
>dying in everything
Fixed that for you
He doesn't 'die like a bitch' in any route
Fuck off Zeroshitter

>>51660552
>near retarded lawful stupid optimist

Isn't getting out of that kind of the whole point of his character arc in Fate and UBW tho

>>51660598
>1. By that point, Shirou was fighting at Archer's level. It's also probable that Archer was possessing him during that final encounter given his sudden appearance afterwards.
Which is stupid, considering that Shirou should have literally fallen apart, like exploded, when crossing blades with Gilgamesh at that point, possession or not.

>2. There was no gap to close where speed would have mattered significantly. Ea needed to charge for its ability and there wasn't enough time for that.
Gilgamesh was already stepping back to try and open a gap. If he used his full Servant-level speed he could be moving at like 5000 ft per round.

>3. Gilgamesh was surprised, he was hardly ready for what Shirou did to him.
No, Gilgamesh was surprised that Shirou could actually drive him into a corner. He was not surprised that Shirou then proceeded to fuck him up. He was surprised that the hole showed up to eat him shortly after, if anything.

>>51660622
Fate isn't really about Shirou. UBW is about why he embraces that ideology even if it's flawed. HF is him evolving beyond it.

>>51660598
>no gap to close where speed would have mattered significantly

he coulda pulled out a regular sword and just stabbed shirou and been done with it.

Its the fucking villain monologue routine, and its equally cliche here as it is anywhere else, regardless of how you try to spin it.

>>51660641
Gilgamesh wanted to use Ea because he was being fucked by the Reality Marble, and because he's a way shittier swordsman than Shirou/Archer.

He's also (literally) insanely prideful, that's his biggest weakness and the reason he dies like a bitch to something he could easily have defeated in HF.

>>51660662
>shittier swordsman than shirou/archer

Okay, what about the fact he fought enkidu for three days straight? and only stopped because both him and enkidu ran out of shit to use?

On every level, gilgamesh is 100% superior. Matter of fact, thats something they point out themselves.

Also, half a months worth of kendo training, even from king arthur, will not give you the strength and tact to take on a fucking god-king with a storehouse of excalibur level weapons, regardless of what skills or abilities you gain in that time.

There is an inherent skill, power, and experience gap that shirou should never have been able to cross, but only does because he's the main character.

>>51660702
>
Also, half a months worth of kendo training, even from king arthur, will not give you the strength and tact to take on a fucking god-king with a storehouse of excalibur level weapons, regardless of what skills or abilities you gain in that time.

Saber's training is not what allows him to surpass Gilgamesh. Adapting Archer's style is. He achieves the level of a Heroic Spirit/Counter Guardian so quickly because of the way sympathetic magic/consensual reality works in the Nasuverse. Saber actually comments that her training is basically worthless because Shirou is learning nothing from her, it's all coming from Archer.

>>51660744
You are missing the fucking point.

No amount of training in that short span of time, archers style or no, instinctive or no, will give him the muscle mass and combat experience to fight gilgamesh.

Knowing how to swing something and use a style is one thing, but using it in combat is entirely another.

Regardless of what sympathetic magic bullshit nasu pulls out, he would not be ready in time because his physical body would be a twig comparatively to gilgamesh.

Second, its plot armor at all to have archer be doing any of this, rather than shirou learn any of it on his own. Its a fucking crazy feedback loop that by all rights shouldn't work, but only does because the throne of heroes is absolute bullshit.

>>51660662
>and because he's a way shittier swordsman than Shirou/Archer.
First of all Gilgamesh knows how to use weapons because he used those weapons on his quest.
Second of all he should literally pulped Shirou on contact because that's just how big the strength difference was, and that the inferior versions could just self destruct with the superior versions every time is complete bullshit when Caliburn gets "shattered" by Merodach in Fate roue.
Third of all while he is prideful as soon as he took things seriously he should've been able to literally*teleports behind you* Shirou and stab him because that's just how fast and strong Servants are.

>>51660805
1. He wasn't "training", he was awakening to his nature.

2. Muscle mass is irrelevant, Shirou's body was strengthened because it was infused with mana, Avalon, and swords.

3. Combat experience was inherent to the memories he absorbed from Archer's presence. He lived through a lot of his Counter Guardian experiences.

4. "Plot armor" and actual plot are extremely different. Shirou's development is fantastic and immensely enhances the story.

>>51660851
>awakening to his nature

No.

>muscle mass is irrelevant.

100 time 0 is still 0. His body should only have been able to handle so much magic reinforcement. Second, someone already debunked the swords thing, as thats heavens feel only.

>combat experience is inherent

Thats not how the human brain does.

>plot armor and actual plot are extremely different

yeah, a good plot wouldn't force feed its main character the strength needed to fight the literal strongest servant at the time of writing.

>>51656180
Why does movement matter? This isnt some weebshit anime where you teleport around like a retarded ninja. For the most part with out magic, fighting is two dudes beating the shit out of each other until one of them drops.

With a system that has little spellslinging applying buffs and debuffs becomes a thing most people could do, which then becomes the requirement to do.

In 99% of system 99% of the time the correct action is attacking, for people without fightan magic that just means swing sword. The actions that usually require more thought come from magic or supernatural abilities where you can do not normal things.

I rate this Martial vs Caster/10 disguise thread. Heres your you.

>>51655895
Ironclaw.
Seriously, what you want is Ironclaw

>>51655895
>Homebrewing custom races for the setting isn't a total crap shoot
So either something very simple or where races have a low impact
>Swordfighting is actually interesting
>move characters on the grid
>apply debuffs
>apply buffs to allies
There are games where you can't try to hinder and trick your opponent? And I don't know a game that doesn't allow you to aid a friend with gang-up boons, flanking or friendly parries.
>Players have magic items, but not spell slinging
So anything and no wizards? Or more something where magic only exists in object form?

Races are easy to implement in Savage Worlds or Fate or similiar rather light/ medium universal games. For the rest it's more about flexible gming and actual creative fighting than system. I've never seen a system that doesn't give you options to do whatever you want in combat.

>>51660873
Anime. Magic. Bullshit.

>>51660873
>>combat experience is inherent
>Thats not how the human brain does.
That is literally how Shirou's Trace and UBW work. He scans a weapon, learns the entirety of its existence, history, and usage, and when he wields it he takes copies the experience of the people who wielded the weapon.

He dies wield weapons, he summons weapons and let's them possess him, because on all levels including the physical he is a magic sword.

That is entirely and completely the only reason he wins fights, and why he's considered a Fake, because nothing about how he fights, from his weapons to his style, is his own, it's all replicated and borrowed.

>>51658217
So ... like The Riddle of Steel or SoS?
These do at least these of the listed things:
>>wide range of different attacks to employ in different situations
>>can elect to fight defensively / offensively / get a feel for your opponent
>>lots of situational modifiers to things [[not terribly sure about this point]]
>>all weapons viable they just have different niches in combat as per real life (spears aren't shit for example, let me tell you something about spears, they work, very well)

>>51660877
>This isnt some weebshit anime where you teleport around like a retarded ninja
Anon by the time most people are level 10+, using D&D as an example at least, as a warrior they can literally Musou their way through regiments.

>beating the shit out of each other
No anon. No. That's not how fighting works. Melee fighting tends to be about judging distances, keeping optimal distance, footwork, and not getting hit because getting cleanly hit even once means you're toast

>>51661026
Gilgamesh beat berserker.

Bazette and souichirou are easily stronger than shirou, one of them being a literal anti-phantasm.

Sorry, but anime magic bullshit don't cut it here when everyone is anime magic bullshit.

>>51661050
Once again, him being a sword is HF only.

Also, no amount of immediately gained experience beats the combat experience gilgamesh has. For that matter, Ea nearly fries shirou's brain, so thats moot. Gilgamesh has things shirou literally can't comprehend.

Third, why didn't gil just chain him down with fucking enkidu? He's got every treasure in the god damn world stored up his ass and he lost because of some weird bullshit magic? Are you fucking kidding me? Gilgamesh, even in Stay night, is still fucking divine. Literally mostly god.

On every level he has shirou beat. And shirou outpowers him? Thats absolute horsecrap.

Bazette? maybe. Souichirou? maybe. Shirou? the kid thats been at this for a fucking month at best, a couple weeks at worst? regardless of the training he did there is no way in hell he would have the ability to go toe to toe with gilgamesh in that span of time.

Its the worst kind of generic shounen anime protagonist bullshit, and it only works because the throne of heroes itself is entirely detached from time.

Its like if a level 20 wizard in 3.pf with quickened CC spells lost to a level 10 Fighter

>>51661206
It's more like a level 20 Wizard with 100000000000000 level 20 items.

>>51661247
rather than level 20, it'd be easier to say artifact.

>>51660873
>Second, someone already debunked the swords thing, as thats heavens feel only.
That's just not true, have you even read the VN?

>>51661206
Also remember that Gilgamesh has literal future sight.

>>51661317
Anon the entire "my body is LITERALLY made of swords" bullshit only shows up when he grafts Archer's arm onto himself. Before that only his Origin is Sword.

>>51661317
what >>51661321 said. In the other routes he retains his generally human nature. His origin and affinity are both sword as a result of avalon, but he only literally becomes swords in HF.

>>51661321
yeah...... how the fuck did he ever get hit? by anything?

>>51661329
>>51661371
"The Reality Marble is able to invade Shirou's body in the form of numerous blades during severe trauma to heal and overwrite wounds. It changes the nature of the regeneration provided by Avalon into an indirect form that “changes his muscles into blades in order to knit his wounds with swords.“"

>>51661371
>by anything?
Because he's a retard
Against Sakura he sees himself being eaten but dismisses it because "that could never happen to me"
Pretty much the answer to every Gilgamesh fight that doesn't end in a complete roflstomp besides against opponents like Karna, Arjuna, or Ozzy is "he's a retard"

>>51661329
>>51661371
Another highly relevant quote, keep in mind that Gil and Shirou never fight in HF.

"The ability manages to keep him from having his entire body destroyed from an attack by Gilgamesh, and makes him appear to have "masses of blades shaped like muscle fibers" as he heals."

>>51661411
You do understand that its some serious plot device bullshit for that to be the case right?

>>51661387
>>51661424
You are confusing avalons healing for shirou's self-reinforcement. The two are entirely seperate abilities, one of which shirou needs to actively use, except in the case of HF's bad ending where he loses control of the arm and ends up a mass of swords.

>>51661458
>You do understand that its some serious plot device bullshit for that to be the case right?
Well yeah but this is known in literature as the "power preserving handicap"
Gandalf could've solo'd Sauron, but he doesn't because of reasons. Tom Bombadil is implied to be basically God, but he doesn't do shit, and so on.

>>51660198
Because it's fun

>>51661458
>
You are confusing avalons healing for shirou's self-reinforcement. The two are entirely seperate abilities, one of which shirou needs to actively use, except in the case of HF's bad ending where he loses control of the arm and ends up a mass of swords.
Yeah, um you're just wrong. It's explicitly stated in UBW that Shirou's body of swords is what protects him from Gil.

Again, Gilgamesh and Shirou never fight in HF. It would thus make sense that he "manages to keep him from having his entire body destroyed from an attack by Gilgamesh" via his body being made of swords if you think that only happened in HF.

Sorry anon, you're just wrong. Try actually playing the VN, it's really good!

>>51661474
I thought Tom Bombadil was like nature anthropomorphized. Only interferes when balance is completely out of whack

>>51661500
That's pretty fucking close to being God anyway

>>51661489
Did you miss the part where i said shirou simply projects the sword inside himself as a shield?

"Unlimited Blade Works also seems to protect Shirou by creating blades within his body to reinforce it."

Its a subconscious thing, but its not an affect of avalon or anything of the sort. His body being made of swords, and lacing it with them like a bullet proof vest are entirely separate, yet somewhat related, functions.

>>51661520
I'm not sure what your point is, but you have clearly moved your goalposts. The explicitly stated reason that Shirou doesn't explode on contact with Gil's attack is that his body is made of swords, a side effect of his Reality Marble tampering with Avalon's healing properties.

>>51661520
His body is not made of swords, his Origin is Sword. Projecting Rho Aias is possible, but difficult, precisely because his origin is Sword.
In nasuverse, Shirou isn't literally a Sword, but his essense, his platonic ideal, is a Sword. Shirou is in Nasuverse an imperfect version of the conceptual Sword.

>>51661555
Once again, there's a difference between being made of something and lacing yourself with it. The act itself is different. In one, he is literally become sword. In another, he simply materializes them on point of contact.

Thats the point. And even then, Fate itself constantly moves the goalposts to make this fight possible without shirou exploding on contact.

>>51661572
Heavens feel bad end. His body literally becomes a mass of swords

>>51661572
He does literally start changing into swords in all the routes, though. As mentioned previously, that's the side effect of Avalon's healing him.

>>51661587
>Heavens feel bad end. His body literally becomes a mass of swords
HF is different because he grafts Archer's Arm onto him though

>>51661587
Seems like you're just frustrated because you're a Zero secondary who can't understand why your golden boy could ever lose. Bet you like Pathfinder a lot.

>>51661506
More of an eastern god than a western one

>>51661604
You mean Judeo-Christian?
Also Judeo-Christian God is pleb tier

>>51661589
It isn't the effect of avalon you retard, its the fucking UBW reality marble.


>>51661600
I hate both gil and pathfinder. But at the same time, i'm not gonna sit here and think that a teenage boy could possibly beat the oldest hero imaginable with a treasury of noble phantasms on a month of training, sympathetic learning or not. Everything about shiro is set up to be some sort of retarded inverse gilgamesh that simply doesn't make a lick of sense.

>>51661595
Thats what i'm saying. in other routes, he laces his body with swords as a defense. In HF he outright loses control of the ability and becomes said mass due to archers arm. Its the only route where he literally becomes swords.

>>51661625
No, i meant asian

>>51661654
>western one
Gaia is not even a personification of the Earth. She literally IS the Earth.

>>51661677
What's the furthest that Bombadil went from his house? If he can't go far from it, then he's literally a god of the land

>>51661779
Why would you consider him a god? Because he's powerful? Is that really your metric for divinity?

>>51661779
He's been to the Barrow Downs, which wouldn't be included in his most obvious jurisdiction as a God of the Land. I think he went to visit the Ents before since they know who he is.

>>51661827
He's heavily implied to be.

>>51661861
What about him is divine?

>>51661876
Anon he's a completely inscrutable old man who appears out of fucking nowhere twice and sings the Barrow-Wights to death and disappears again afterwards, if that ain't suspicious as shit I dunno what is
He's also old as fuck.

>>51661936
He's powerful and old, sure, but that means he's a god? I think you should re-evaluate your priorities if power and age are the qualities necessary for divinity.

>>51661992
He's obviously more than he appears, that's why I say it's implied he's a God.

>>51662023
>more than he appears
Is that the quality of a god?

>>51656409
Yup same here. Didn't even read what op said

>>51662050
Anon holy fucking shit nobody is going to explicitly tell you the identity of an implied god

>>51662105
What I'm trying to get at here is that you have this notion of godhood that isn't particularly meaningful. Something is really strong, that's a god? Something is really old, that's a god? Why are these things gods, and not just really strong and/or really old creatures? Why would you assign divinity to something based on its power or age?

>>51662140
No anon, that which is divine is superior on a fundamental level, that which is to the mortal as a cube is to a plane. However, overwhelming power and overwhelming age are often indicators, not to mention hyper-mysteriousness.

File: Gawain.jpg (235KB, 506x655px) Image search: [Google]

235KB, 506x655px

>all these gil-guzzlers

>>51660552
>muh F/Z Rider is da manliest
Hello NeoGAF, how have you been?

File: 1312373009308censored.jpg (229KB, 597x842px) Image search: [Google]

229KB, 597x842px

>>51655895
Didn't read the thread, everyone else probably suggested this too.

>>51662849
t. Gawain
Gawain is a bitch who loses to Lancelot.

File: colt45everytime.jpg (94KB, 584x469px) Image search: [Google]

94KB, 584x469px

>>51655895
You want 13th Age.

It's over there, next to D&D under the "Does Not Suck, Though" sign.

>>51664666
It does suck, just somewhat less.

>>51664575
Nigga everyone loses to Lancelot

File: __berserker_and_illyasviel_von_einzbern_fate_stay_night_and_fate_series_drawn_by_ks__693cc88d18d6ce2d81f83a83141e689f.jpg (317KB, 992x1403px) Image search: [Google]

317KB, 992x1403px

>>51660622
>>51660639
Yes and no. Here's someone better then me explaining it.

Shirou takes his ideals to the limit during the Fate scenario, where he constantly attempts to protect Saber from harm and keep her from fighting other Servants, despite the fact that she is many times more powerful than he is and that even his odds of mere survival are hopelessly low against those he personally fights. This is because he cannot stand the idea of someone else being harmed for his sake. He never gives up his ideals during the route and injures himself numerous times to uphold it. The route also highlights Shirō as being someone who has been born in the wrong era, painting him as a would-be hero born too late, who would be far happier living as a knight in Camelot or some other ancient time when heroes still existed. Last Episode reveals that the Shirō of this route succeeds in becoming a hero and ascends to Avalon upon proving himself worty, where he is reunited with his beloved for all of eternity.

In the Unlimited Blade Works route, Shirou, through constant arguing with Archer, begins to see the hypocrisy in his ideals. Though he refuses to give them up entirely, he works his way towards a middle ground where he will strive towards fulfilling ideals, despite knowing they are impossible to achieve.

In the Heaven's Feel route, he faces his largest dilemma, in which he is forced to choose between maintaining his ideals and protecting the life of Sakura, who he falls in love with. He eventually forsakes his ideals and strives only to protect Sakura, though he is presented with conflict a number of times because of this decision. He eventually begins to develop large amounts of self-hate over the things he has done for Sakura, but still fights on so that all those sacrifices won't, from his perspective, become meaningless.

>>51667278
>In the Heaven's Feel route, he faces his largest dilemma, in which he is forced to choose between maintaining his ideals and protecting the life of Sakura
No, no that's not right. His beliefs evolve in HF, he doesn't abandon them. The Shirou of UBW is instinctively aware of the flaws in his beliefs, but doesn't really understand the next step. He doesn't work out a response to Archer beyond his instinctive desire to reject what he says - this is because he knows Archer is wrong but cannot formulate the answer yet.

He finally gets the answer in Sakura's route. That is, he is presented with the choice of saving Sakura or saving all the civilians she threatens to kill - the same sort of dilemma presented to Kiritsugu by the Grail, and the same sort of scenario presented by Archer to Shirou in UBW. His 'ideals' would seem to indicate that he must save the civilians, but that's wrong, those are Kiritsugu's beliefs, not his. What he does instead is choose a third option - save /everyone/. He constantly refutes Saber and Archer and Kotomine with this notion that he 'just wants to save everyone', but in Heaven's Feel he actually does take the step to do that, by making himself strong enough to follow through on it. He learns that sacrifice is not a solution, and instead strives to protect everything before him.

>>51667743
No one can beat the French Mary Sue

>>51666612
nigga you confused

>>51656409
>>51657764
>>51662072

So much of these.

>>51667583
But that's not what he does.

The answer he actually finds is 'I only want to save those important to me, regardless of any negative consequences done to others in the process.'.

He utterly abandons anything approaching the other ideals. All that matters is those he cares about.

>>51658301
>>51660457
Don't ask me why, but to a lot of the people I've played 4e with being forced to move somewhere you aren't feels a lot worse than taking a fuckton of damage. Forced movement is the closest thing 4e has to "save or suck" of 3.5.

>>51658152
The thing about UBW is that it's pretty much perfect counter to GoB

>Homebrewing custom races for the setting isn't a total crap shoot
you want 3e it is the systems biggest strength
>Swordfighting is actually interesting
depends what you mean do you want in depth duels or cutting through swaths of enemies if the later you can do that in 3e with the dervish dancer (the wizards one not paizos shitty attempt (in fact if you do go with 3e make sure it is 3e or 3.5 not pathfinder) if you want dueling you will have to look elsewhere
>Players have magic items, but not spell slinging
again 3e does this really well most of the accusations of caster supremacy actually come because people are not using enough magic items

so you want 3e unless you want your swordfighting to be duels

whatever you do stay away from 5e it is really bad for creating your own creatures

>>51656513
it may be shit but it fits ops description of what he wants perfectly

>>51660924
>Ironclaw

Actually
>Homebrew not a crapshoot
>Swordfighting is actually interesting
Yes
>Players have magic items, but not spell slinging
No. Ironclaw has a ton of spell slinging, but magic items are almost non-existent artifacts. Spellcasting system is top notch though.
>Dynamic monster fighting
Dynamic people fighting, almost no monsters of any kind. It's all PvNPC.

Fun system, still.