What are those narrative/story games that seem to be all the

FATE is one I'm familiar with, it's something of a generic system, and some people think it's rules lite, but it's really not. The GM doesn't have complete control, and the players (Players as opposed to characters) have a significant degree of it.
The basic system is that there's a metacurrency around which most mechanics run called fate points. Characters, locations, and scenes in general all have narrative Aspects that can be invoked by either the player(s) or the GM for positive or negative effects, often in the form of +2 or -2 to rolls. An example from the book is a character with "Not the Face!" as an aspect. This could be used by the GM to compel the character to avoid a fight, or it could be used by the character to aid in a defense roll as they try extra hard to not be hit, or anything else that makes sense given that short sentence. If a player doesn't want to be compelled, they spend a point to negate it. If they accept the compel, they gain a point to use for themselves, so there's an ongoing economy as points move around. They can also be spent to add Aspects to a scene and affect the narrative on a meta level. Attributes and Skills are basically the same thing and are rated from 0 to +5 or beyond. There are abilities called Stunts that are similar to Feats or Advantages, that let you use skills in different ways or give you bonuses in specific situations or similar effects.

Once a group gets used to it, it's very fast and new things can be introduced on the fly, but it really does require everyone to be on board with it because of the shared narrative control. One player moping about it can drag the whole thing down.

>>51598675

Fluff is easier than mechanics.

So "fantasy heartbreakers" which promise the world but run on cobwebs and Real Roleplaying, are relatively easy to churn out.

If it wasn't on Kickstarter, and has more than a couple of books, there's probably more to it than just hype.

Otherwise, beware their "uniquely round cards", or you'll end up playing this kind of wank: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/montecookgames/invisible-sun

I've been interested in Dogs in the Vineyard but wild west mormon police isn't something I can sell my group on.

We tried Fiasco but it just didn't work. Probably because there are people in the group who are not interested in the genre.

I've been meaning to read Mountain Witch. Maybe it's more likely to click.

>>51600826
What would a fantasy game be like that isn't a heartbreaker?

>>51600991
There are shitloads of medieval fantasy games that aren't heartbreakers. In fact most of the one you know aren't since one of the reasons they are called heartbreakers is because they too much like dnd for people who want something other than dnd and people who want dnd would rather play dnd than some guy's fresh OC.

>>51600991
>What would a fantasy game be like that isn't a heartbreaker?

Do you understand that the word "heartbreaker" in the phrase "fantasy heartbreaker" refers to the creator's broken heart after his amazing unoriginal piece of D&D-derived shit fails to gain any traction in the RPG market and only his mom buys a copy?

>>51601158
More fantasy games than you'd think are "somebody's D&D houserules" or an attempt to do D&D "better". Even games that aren't medieval fantasy can trace their lineage back to some primordial D&D or a first order heartbreaker.

A good example of this is Call of Cthulu, which uses the Rolemaster system, which was one of the first D&D fantasy heartbreakers.

>>51598675
As far as I know, there's Fate offshoots, Apocalypse World offshoots, ultralights like Lasers and Feelings, and whatever the fuck Chuubo's is.

Fate was explained in thread. There's an SRD with all of the core rules, the Accelerated offshoot, and IP scrubbed alternate rules for several of the games made via a rolling Kickstarter.

Be advised that it is a build your own system more than an out the box game. If you want to jump in and game, I would suggest the Atomic Robo RPG or if you can cop it, Dresden Files Accelerated. Also, the Fate Point Economy is nonfunctional unless players compel themselves constantly, in which case it is merely spotlight hogging.

Apocalypse World is the next step closer to improv storygame from Fate. Everything works off of a 2d6+mod roll, with specifically coded rolling situations (called moves) saying what happens on a three tiered level of success. The GM is called to make things up on the fly as much as possible, using the results of the moves and a series of narrative prompts on their side: Fronts (setpieces), Threats (antagonists), and GM Moves (responses to player rolls).

It's easier for experienced TTRPG players to grok than Fate, but if the GM is off, the game falls to pieces. If your players don't like an RNG weighted to have bad things happen to them, the game will fall apart. Also, watch out for Sex Moves in certain games (Monsterhearts, AW 1st and 2nd).

AW games are self contained and really easy to procedurally generate, so there are a lot of hacks.

Ultralights explain themselves. Chuubo's is Amber Diceless fucking Noblis

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>>51600957
Have a pdf of Dogs?

>Which of those games are actually playable
Apocalypse World and Luke Crane's games (Burning Wheel, Torchbearer). Ryuutama if it counts as narrativist.

>and which are memes?
Everything else, especially fucking Dungeon World, and anything spawned by kickstarter, and anything made by anyone with a patreon.

>>51601158
Ah.

>>51601287
Yes.

>>51601468
>watchoutforsex
>moves

kek. Also if you're not making bad things happen, you're not playing apocalypse world right. While getting a +3 is easy enough, and you can leverage that as a player, other players and the mc can/should relentlessly fuck with you. Its not that you get what you want all the time and win, its that getting what you want doesn't solve everything.

OP, indie narrative based games have been a thing for over a decade. Largely keep in mind they're focused on specific settings and themes with minimalist rules that need to be followed fairly closely rather than being generalist systems. It'll focus on being slave minotaurs, solving a murder on a train, what the pirates do when their captain dies, being a space prisoner, stuff like that. FATE being the exception. People make pbta hacks a lot, most of them aren't very good, but lots of them have a few good ideas. 2nd edition is largely disappointing.

Dogs In The Vineyard is dope, doesn't have to be about mormons, just about a small group of well backed troubleshooters, with some sort of religious or ideological imperatives. Worked really well for a 40K inquisition game.

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>>51601519
Here, have dotv. Main downside is you have to have lots of dice and all your players have to be smart.

>>51601660
Further notes: There are a few generalist storygame systems, none of them seem to do as well as a focused game with a goal. Fiasco's tricky. Its a party game where everyone at the party has to be sort of into rpgs and heist movies. Haven't ever seen it done well.

GNS theory has proven over time to be fairly shallow and lacking flexibility. Don't know if anything's come up to replace it yet though. This might be a good run for it, but again, probably too complicated for people to make generalizations and argue about which kind of pretending to be a wizard is best.

>http://monstersandmanuals.blogspot.ca/2017/01/the-fundamental-principles-of-rpg-style.html

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>>51601468
>Ultralights explain themselves. Chuubo's is Amber Diceless fucking Noblis

Did you mean to put these on separate lines? Chuubo's is the exact opposite of rules light. It may be diceless but the actual game system is practically a different language you need to learn in order to actually play. And don't even get me started about trying to GM it, let alone develop your own content.

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>>51601745
Cheers. You wouldn't happen to have yoon-suin, too?

>>51601959
its in the osr trove

Combining osr procedural generation as creative prompts with collaborative storytelling games is great when you've got a group that can do it.

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>>51602337
Which folder? I can't find it

I've dipped into Ron Edwards essays and even though he's painful to read, the idea of systems that help stories to happen instead of GM railroading PCs through an adventure with a handful of choices appealed to me. What games are actually good at that kind of thing?

>>51601660
>People make pbta hacks a lot, most of them aren't very good, but lots of them have a few good ideas. 2nd edition is largely disappointing.
Which ones are good? I'd try AW but I don't thing a post-apoc game is a good fit for my group.

>>51602841
Really depends on what sort of thing your group wants to do. 'story' games work better if everyone's one similar pages, or are interested in working with each other as the idea instead of building characters separately. Helps when the gm isn't into telling everyone their novel, but is interested in what happens when other people add to their ideas.

I'ma list things off the top of my head I've played that might be worth looking at.
>3:16 Carnage, scifi ptsd bughunt, can be serious like Starship Troopers the book, or silly af like Starship Troopers the movie.
>The Quiet Year/Deep Forest, collaborative cartography game? Sounds weird but everyone gets to take part in building a settlement trying not to collapse. Its post apoc tho. The Deep Forest is as monsters who just evicted some adventures.
>Dogs In The Vineyard, basically Mormons in a weird west with one of the most interesting conflict resolution mechanics I've ever seen.
>Poison'd, you're a bunch of pirates, the rapey kind, trying to figure out who's the new captain. Shit's messed up.
>Shock, scifi thriller movie game? You make a scifi advancement that radically changes the world, then build characters in it and make them fuck with each other's goals. Makes everyone play each other's antagonists, but not as enemies more driving elements.
>The Few, ww2 dogfighting game with abstract combat and a big part based on what you do sneaking off the base to try and sleep with a british lady. We ran it as scifi dogfights over mars but it worked pmuch the same.
>In A wicked Age, dark fantasy, the sun is freezging. Players draw cards from an oracle to give motivations they play out. More improve than anything else.
>Mustang Loco, story telling drinking game about some western kids trying to kill a demonic horse. Good for tricking your friends into playing story games with you because there's whisky.

>>51602505
you can find it i believe in you

>>51602873
annnd a bunch of these, again, group focus is key. Don't try and force a type of game with a system that doesn't support it. Goes double for people making hacks just because they like the 2d6 granular success thing.
>Apocalypse World 1st ed, high energy violent melodrama in a weird post-big-fuck-up world. Has sex and rude language, which either people seem to really like, or be really upset by.
>Dark Age beta, post roman empire collapse dark fantasy. Lots of things here got turned into apocalypse world 2nd edtion. It has really developed procedures for clan, tribe, warband, polity, etc. building over seasons.
>Monsterhearts, buffy the vampire slayer/twilight/every YA novel about supernatural shit melodrama. Monstrosity as metaphor for puberty.
>The Sprawl, straight up william gibson Sprawl trilogy. Has meh character creation because cyberpunk is pmuch a dead horse, but very well put together mission generation and how to use a corporation.
>Streets Of Marienberg, world of dungeons hack, ends up with a lot of the grit of warhammer fantasy roleplay. Used it for a Mordheim campaign to great success aka much death and mutation.

there's a lot of mediocre to shite ones tho.

Haven't gotten a chance to play or run Blades In The Dark, but it looks good for street gangs.

>>51600957
Try refluffing it- I think there are suggestions in the rules, the system adapts well to any kind of paranormal investigation with guns.

>>51603324
Seconding the Sprawl- the mission generation and partial successes are more structured than most PbTA games- it makes things faster and easier to run.

>>51603324
The Sprawl is great, probably the best iteration of Apocalypse World's ruleset outside AW itself.

>>51600991
If you're asking for examples, then a couple off the top of my head would be Pendragon and Dungeon Crawl Classics.

They're both fantasy RPGs which weren't designed as "DnD but *better*!"

Pendragon is specifically built for playing Arthurian Legend based games.
DCC is built off of the "feel" of early DnD with the incorporation of Appendix N - i.e. rather than try to do "DnD but better" and failing at it, it does "DnD but weirder and quirkier" and succeeds.

>>51603324
Thanks, anon. I'll look into The Sprawl. I loved Neuromancer.

>>51603324
Blades In The Dark is pretty cool.

Stylistically, it apes Dishonored and the Locke Lamora/Gentleman Bastards novels.

PCs are all particular roles, and have particular specialties. The game revolves mainly around performing heists, although that heist could well be an assassination, a kidnapping, or something else entirely. There's quite well thought out rules for raising a gang, territorial disputes, etc.

There's also a "flashback" mechanic, which lets players have their "Lucky I prepared for this / Lucky I thought of this earlier" moments, which works very well for the genre.

>>51603904
Yeah, its the gang/territorial stuff I'm the most interested in. I'll give it a look soon. Thanks.

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>>51603324
Oh, you're right. it's right there. I couldn't have found it without your help. Thanks

>>51600826
>Fluff is easier than mechanics.
>So "fantasy heartbreakers" which promise the world but run on cobwebs and Real Roleplaying, are relatively easy to churn out.

Really? In my experience it's the exact opposite. People were trying to fix the various problems in AD&D by making it "more realisticer!!!" and adding or altering disparate subsystems, or as Ron Edwards put it, patch rules - fixing a problem by adding correcters, rather than proceeding from base principles.

>>51598675
>What is your opinion on those newfangled games?
They are for nerds who became adults and have less time between family and work.

>>51598675
Because we're sick of bullshit rules arguments and rule exploits dragging games down.

>>51601468
>A good example of this is Call of Cthulu, which uses the Rolemaster system, which was one of the first D&D fantasy heartbreakers.
>Call of Cthulu, which uses the Rolemaster system
>Rolemaster
>fantasy heartbreaker
jesus, this post couldn't be any more wrong.

>>51600991
if you know its name, it isn't a heartbreaker

>>51605827
well, GM fiat everywhere isn't the answer either.

>>51598675
PbtA games are okay, in general narrativist games are -okay-.

I believe the only sensible arrangement in an RPG is the simulationist one, in which things happen because they make sense.

Gamism is cancer and so are D&D and all its derivatives.

>>51601745
>Fiasco's tricky. Its a party game where everyone at the party has to be sort of into rpgs and heist movies. Haven't ever seen it done well.

Or Coen Brothers movies. Or Wes Anderson movies. Or Guy Ritchie movies. Or Quentin Tarantino movies. Hell, Hateful 8 is a perfect example of a Fiasco western.

>>51606113
Why is recognizing that a game is exactly that, and has rules of resolution to resolve the game part of the game, bad?

>>51606161
Because gamist games are board games, not RPGs.

>>51606481
>board games
>not RolePlaying Games
You aren't making a case, anon. You seem to want a game to act like it's not a game, despite having all the elements of one, or that your nerd cred needs your preferred games to be "different".
It's kinda silly to me. A game is a game, and ignoring the "Game" part is how you have mechanics and resolution methods that do not work as intended.

>>51606534
An RPG is not actually a game in the literal sense. There is no fail state, nor a victory condition. The point of playing is not to roll big numbers. DnD is a shitty skirmish wargame, not a roleplaying game. It has nearly no mechanics for anything outside of combat, and even its combat mechanics are hardly any fun. In addition, DnD is the lowest common denominator trash-filth that clogs this board all too frequently. We should strive to create a space in which DnDposting is treated with the same revulsion as threads about magical realm, that guy, storytiem, and all that other questfaggot-induced "ideas guy" shit.

>>51608455
>An RPG is not actually a simulation in the literal sense. There is no 1-1 veracity, nor a measure of one. The point of playing is not to pretend you aren't playing. GURPS is a shitty simulacra, not a roleplaying game. It has mechanics for as many things as possible, and none of them are fun. In addition, GURPS is the lowest common denominator trash-filth that clogs this board all too frequently. We should strive to create a space in which GURPSposting is treated with the same revulsion as threads about magical real, that guy, storytiem, DnD, Pathfinder, world building, generals, and all that other questfaggot-induced "ideas guy" shit.

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>>51608455
You've got no idea what D&D or an RPG is. OD&D has half a page of normal combat, 5 pages for water & aerial combat, out of 100. All simulation is abstraction, you're too dulled to recognize the difference between a high-level abstractions, which make up the entirety of pre-WotC D&D mechanics, and gamism.

>>51603182
You have pdfs for any of those? (DogsInTheVineyard already linked above).

>>51603324
Anyone have a pdf of Dark Age? I can't seem to find it anywhere

>>51603182
>Mustang Loco
What's the drinking game? Is Loco a supplement or something

>>51605821
I dunno, anon. I'm am grad school drop out who has a shitload of time on his hand and I'm into lighter games now then I was in college (when I was a hardcore GURPS autist).

>>51605821
Play megadungeons

>>51613214
Yeah, and what mechanics existed for social encounters in your ancient and sacred text?

>>51614838
Morale, Hostile-Friendly & Loyalty tables. Also, this might come as a bit of a surprise in an RPG, but the main social mechanic would be role-play. You know, with words, not dice? Isn't that crazy?

>>51614963
>You know, with words, not dice? Isn't that crazy?
>mechanical depth isn't necessary, just freeform everything haha
There's a reason DnD is known as the archetype of gamism. Your caterwauling about how 'awesome and riiiich' old school DnD is ignores the reality that what you actually do at the mechanical level for anything other than combat is incredibly dull.

>>51615102
You're too dulled to recognize the difference between high-level abstractions and gamism.

>>51606135
Tell me more about this game

>>51615102

>D&D social interactions are bad because they're too freeform
>D&D is bad because it's too gamist

Choose one. You're literally tripping over yourself in an attempt to sperg against the popular game you hate.

>>51615102
>Your caterwauling about how 'awesome and riiiich' old school DnD is ignores the reality that what you actually do at the mechanical level for anything other than combat is incredibly dull.

I'm not the guy who defends dnd, but wast majority of systems outside this whole narrative/idie movement have dull mechanics outside combat. That basically how most mainstream systems work no matter their supposed focus, they have a detailed combat system while everything else is resolved by one stat/skill roll plus GM fiat. I'd be actually curious to see a system that treats something other than combat with this level of detail.

>>51601287
Huh, I always thought "heartbreakers" meant they were games that were undeservingly hyped up and the sales pitch promised they would be the most incredible thing ever and then they fell completely short of expectations and all the naive shills and backers hanged themselves in shame and depression.
I mean the two interpretations aren't exclusive but I never thought about it from the author's point of view.

A lot of the "Real Roleplaying" games turn me off in how far up their ass they seem to be when they try to explain their concept.

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>>51614838
Moral for followers and encounters, alignment and reaction rolls are all mechanics for that. Context expanded from procedurally generated tables and monster descriptions add to it, as well as linkages from other generated hexes, encounters, modules, etc.

>>51613415
here, there's a bunch of bits and pieces all over the fuck, it'll take a few posts.

>>51613641
One of the characters has whiskey, you're suppose to bring some and share it as you tell stories. Its pretty fun.

>>51602841
Apocalypse World
I have a 12 session campaign going and it's everything you said

>>51615713
WoD.

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>>51615852
it never made it into full game, they got distracted by/abandoned it for 2nd edition apocalypse world and other stuff but we've messed around with it and had fun

>>51615843
Its a specific term from this essay
>http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/9/

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>>51615901

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>>51615930

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>>51615960

>>51615987
I think that's all there is. The warband and cultural generation stuff is neat, mixed on rights mostly because we're not sure how much to flex/exercise them in play and it got bogged down a bit there.

>>51615713
GURPS, especially with Social Engineering or the Low Tech cultural supplements.

>>51615897
I'll admit that WoD treats combat with the same depth it gives social interactions but it's pretty shallow in both cases.

>>51615713
>wast majority of systems outside this whole narrative/idie movement have dull mechanics outside combat
Modern* systems. This is nonsense when D&D put all the emphasis away from combat and they were the model everyone followed for a long, long time. The rules for running from combat were longer than it's alternative combat rules. The list of games that fall under your request is endless.

>>51615897
What? I actually wanted to use WoD as an example of a system that is marketed as not focused on combat, yet has 30 pages dedicated to combat and social system that is basically "roll you social dice pull - ask how GM feels about your roll".

>>51616124
>has 30 pages dedicated to combat
What is even in them? You roll attack and defense and then damage and soak. I guess there are also extra actions and a pathetic attempt at a grappling system and discussion of damage types (if that's even in the combat section) but that's not a terribly fleshed out combat system.

>>51616456
Well yeah, basically. Damage types, ranged vs. melee, weapon lists, special weapon modifiers (like armour piercing), grappling, aggressive and defensive maneuvers. There are also hitting people with cars rules and combat styles as merits.

>>51616067
It's funny that core GURPS doesn't actually have a social system.

>>51618207
... yes it does?

>>51618207
It depends on what you mean by "social system" because over half or your character's traits should be social traits unless you're playing a murderhobo who popped up naked in the setting, and those traits obviously have mechanical effects, so how can it not have a social system?

>>51618387
does it?

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Are narrative games really more prone to people making Mary-Sues?

>>51622124
Only if the GM doesn't put their foot down before game actually starts.

>>51622124
Not really

The difference is that their mary sue might be more mechanically viable and less mechanically exotic than a D&D abomination that required 5 different splatbooks and an assurance that 'this website with titty elves is totally a canon Wizards product'

>>51622124
Fate in particular makes it difficult because a character with no potentially negative aspects will quickly run out of fate points and be crippled. That's why aspects that can be used to your advantage AND to your disadvantage are the best ones, and ones that are strictly positive or strictly negative don't really help much (Although strictly negative ones at least get you a lot of points)

>>51622290
And what that really boils down to is that Flaws that aren't really flaws won't get you any Fate Points, making them complete dead weight. Ironically, So Pretty That People Get Jealous might actually be a fairly decent Aspect if it doesn't fly in the face of the game's tone or theme, because that angry jealousy will create real complications for the character to overcome and the enhanced prettiness can be used to your advantage.

>>51622439
Yeah nah there's no way you can salvage "she must suffer because she's too beautiful for this cruel world" into a potable character concept, I don't give a shit about your mechanic babble.

>>51621715
Y--yes, anon-san.

>>51622515
What about a comedy game?

>>51622694
People playing mary sues and munchkins and edgelords "ironically" aka straight are cancer.

>>51616067
GURPS is just boring in general.

>>51608455
>DnD is a shitty skirmish wargame, not a roleplaying game.
t. John Wick

>>51613214
Well, as per statement of its authors, OD&D was an attempt at genre simulation. From today's POV, it does a shoddy job but for a first attempt, it was more than decent, thus explaining its success. Later D&D versions have drifted into gamism, no doubt.

>>51615666
I would assume that the first applies to early versions of D&D and the second to altter versions.

>>51627952
GURPS has interesting combat, and that's really all I look for in a system. Because everything else is largely RP and a single dice roll for a skill or something.

>>51627952
That's just, like, your opinion, man.

GURPS is fun as hell, has lots of interesting stuff to plug in or change for very different-"feeling" playstyles, general mechanics and characters/campaigns. IMO obviously. There's a certain 'magic' to it as a system that I've never personally felt with other games; despite having either played or run a ton of them, I always find myself yearning to go back to GURPS, and these days I usually simply take philosophies or mechanics from my favorite "other game" experiences to port into my own (usually GURPS, but not always) campaigns.
Not a condemnation of other games by any means, just trying to express my feelings about how GURPS (for me, my brother, and my players at least) is very much the opposite of a boring system.

Different strokes, and that.

Don't worry anon, I would never force you to play it or say it's the best system ever made and perfect for everything. It's just a really good game and I like it a lot, that's all. I hope you have a reliable fallback game or two like that which you enjoy thoroughly, as well.

>>51600957
Dogs can be easily refluffed into things like a Yog-Sothery game, detective games, a 'band of wandering ronin' game...my group used it to play a Dark Tower (newfags won't get this) game.

Though, and this just my opinion, players who wouldn't try the vanilla setting sound like shit to me desu senpai.

>>51622124
First. Narrative games have rules, and mechanics like all others, so character creation has it's limits too.
Secondly. The aim of narrative gaming is to create interesting story. Interesting story is build on interesting characters, so making Mary-Sues would be counterproductive.

>>51630392
what's so interesting about it?

>>51631111
>Though, and this just my opinion, players who wouldn't try the vanilla setting sound like shit to me desu senpai.
I live in the part of the world where if people even know who Mormons are, they do because of the South Park.

>>51632504
One doesn't even need to mention Mormons when selling Dogs.
Just sell it as "players playing gun slinger paladins in alternative wild west, wandering town to town killing witches and solving other problems."

>>51600826
I feel like fluff is the hardest and most important part of role-playing. The more familiar your players are with the fluff, the less important the "game" becomes. This is evident when doing zombie apocalypse RP. Using yourself as characters and your town as the starting zone, you can do so much without any stats or maps. You can the same effect by doing RPs in other familiar settings like Middle Earth or Westeros (depending on your group).

So sometimes the most valuable thing you can provide in an "RPG" is a clear, comprehensive setting complete with concisely detailed politics, maps, bestiaries and ecological info, more maps, detailed magic system, and cultures.

Fluff isn't easy. Valuable fluff requires consistency, that it be intriguing and tight, and consumability. If you can get players IN your world without a whole series of novels, simulationist mechanics take a backseat.

>>51632132
I'm the anon you're responding to and I haven't played GURPS in a long time, but there things like shocks and stuns that actually change up the fight, well-balanced characters stats, maneuvers and equipment. I also enjoy the hit location table which also provided variety.

>>51630392
>Because everything else is largely RP and a single dice roll for a skill or something.
But that's wrong. Like, for most systems it's true, but overall it's factually wrong.

>>51634521
I mean for what I'm looking for that's what the case is. Sorry, I worded it weird.

>>51601838
I thought Chuubo's was some sort of weeaboo rules-lite game but that sounds intriguing. Downloading it right now.