Cold War Redux

>>51593496
1984

Depends on what the situation in europe was. A lot of the behaviours and political decisions made by both sides in the cold war was influenced by the hard fact that even dealing with proxy wars on seemingly minor fronts could make the enemy start shit up on the main front, europe.

>>51593539
This
You know how the entire war of 1984 is just 2 superpowers ganging up on the third before one of them eventually betrays the other? Yeah, it'd be like that.

>>51593496
How could the Reich and the USSR co-exist as superpowers? That doesn't make sense.
An axis Berlin-Moscow would be an interesting scenario though, albeit extremely far-fetched. They would stand, maybe together with Japan, against the US and the Brits

>>51593918
It was half done until hitler started barbarossa, just tune down the paranoia of both leaders.

The only possible scenario in which there are 3 superpowers are if Britain managed to hold on to its superpower status through the economic collapse of the early 50's. OR if they became a union with France after the suez.

That would be interesting.

>>51593496
I have a better scenario.

What if Cold War was fought between Nazi Germany and Communist China?

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I actually came up with an alternate reality scenario about this.


It's really detailed and I've explained it to a handful of people. I'll go into more detail if anyone gives 2 shits.

>>51593958
Son, both of them had the overarching goal of wiping each other out, so it's literally impossible for them to reach a state of cold war.
Especially since German capabilities of conducting a prolonging war were non-existent, which was the reason why they've eventually lost.

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>>51593496

Man, i can't really add anything to the thread but it made me wonder why on earth there are literary no game/videogame or even a fucking movies or something that do and explore more this strange 80' aesthetic of Soviet bloc.

I mean Siberian Education wasn't bad but still...

>>51594022
*Raises hand*
One shit given here.

>>51594008
To have Communist China you need to remove Japan from the continental Asia. And to do that, someone would have to beat the shit out of Japan.

Ergo - it's not possible.

>>51594022

I give the written metaphorical two and i actually need to go to the toilet for the real thing to so if you want it just tell.

Hit me brah, very curious.

>>51594044
>Especially since German capabilities of conducting a prolonging war were non-existent
Pretty much this. Early victory until mid-1942 was basically Germany's only chance. Hence why I said it'd be extremely far-fetched

>>51594054
Nysa or Nyska was designed in late 50s, so the fuck it has to do with 80s? Those cars were still build up until 94 and the latest models are pretty much meme-tier indestructable, while suprisingly comfy for a commie design.

>>51594054
Also
>Poland
>Soviet
Literally pick one. I mean - Commie Poland, sure. Soviet? Are you on acid?

>>51594129
>>51594120


I wasn't talking about Poland, i was talking about 80' Soviec bloc aesthetics, my fault that i picked a random picture of a car from "Warsaw Pact" folder?
Chill polan'bros i know that the whole PRL stuff is a big no-no so excuse me if i offended your sensibilities but you seriously need to chill with the autism.

>>51594060
>>51594088

So the brief idea is as follows

>ww1 breaks out in 1914
>British Cabinet is able to raise debate over whether or not to intervene after the German invasion of Belgium
>The lack of a strong standing army and the German Naval buildup being overestimated reduces British confidence in joining the war effort
>Germany pushes past the French lines at the marne and takes Paris in 1915
>France requests an armistice
>Germany requests Britain join the war against Russia, Parliament eventually votes yes, due to fear the combined German and French Fleets may overcome the British.
>Italy defeated in late 1915
>Germany and Austria Hungary eventually force Russia into an armistice
>Russia is split into various puppets of Germany. War is over by 1916. Tsar Nicholas II abdicates, Russian Republic declared
>Austria annexes Serbia and Venice
>Britain is forced to give India dominion status due to promising it in return for defending against the Kazakh army invading through afghanistan
>China descends into civil war
>Japan intervenes, sets up puppet republic, Tibet, East Turkmenistan. and Mongolia, aas well as Manchuria.

>1920's

>USA declines due to being unable to compete in German exports
>Austria Hungary refuses to federate, and various civil wars break out
>While no states are officially recognized by foreign powers, the Austrian Army maintains control soley of Austria, venice and South Tyrol.
>Arab revolts funded by Russian nationalists grow and the Ottoman Empire descends into civil war also
>Greece declares war on Ottomans in 1924 claiming the Turks have violated their ocean territory
>britain joins Greece, claims to be maintaining stability in the region
>The middle east is divided into various protectorates and mandates under Britain
>However, British Steel production has fallen in previous years and England is becoming more reliant on Germany for financial support

1/2

>>51594253
Son, you've picked a thing that has nothing to do with the subject you invoked yourself and they you act butthurt when it's pointed out.
How about you remove your head from your ass?

And PRL is not a "no-no". Mixing it with Soviet Union is a no-no. Just like in every single fucking post-commie nation.

>>51594294
>I know jack shit about history: The Post
>I believe logistics IRL are just as easy as in shitty Paradox games
Please stop, this is painful

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>>51594294
>USA declines due to being unable to compete in German exports
Can you expand on this? It's clear that you've put a lot of thought into that setting but this seems a bit off

>>51594294
2/2

>British empire rearranges into a self governing, decentralized Federation.
>War with turks ends, Turkey rearranged into anatolia alone
>The US Stock Market plummets in 1926 due to a lack of confidence and plummeting exports
>Country is forced to demilitarize
>Russian Republic reorganized into a more democratic, while also socialist state

>1930's
>By this point, the Balkans are a shitshow, ethnic genocides and hundreds of various nationalist groups are locked in a bitter struggle to gain land
>German intervention in 1932 brings nothing but more chaos to the region
>The Naples Republic is established in South Italy, votes for independence in 1933
>Anglo-American relations break down further as reactionary US groups accuse Britain and Germany of dropping Steel prices to the point the US can't compete
>US Signs a treaty with France and Russia in 1934, finalizing the Republican Alliance
>China declares independance from Japan in 1935, beginning the second sino-japanese war
>Russia and the US send millions upon millions in aid to China, as well as extensive lend lease
>The US is pushed near to a breaking point due to the high cost of this
>In 1937, the US breaks down entirely, riots across streets break out due to long ration lines, the US government is forced to flee washington
>In the crisis, Britain occupies the Panama canal in what is known as the Panama crisis
>US demands its return but has no way of enforcing this
>UK states they'll maintain shared control once the US crisis ends
>US eventually stabilises and begins repairing itself after French intervention
>Japan, war weary, signs a cease fire with China in 1939, due to no way of maintaining control long term
>1.5 million, japanese killed, over 30 million chinese killed
>Japanese military loses confidence in hirohito
>Public opinion turns against him as Japan is exposed to foreign media
>Coup in 1940 deposes him, Japan proclaimed a constitutional monarchy

I'm gonna need one more part

>>51594476
German steel production was rapidly rising in the 1900's, so the general idea was that German exports eventually became cheap enough due to a competitive market and the post war production boom that the US was unable to compete Admittedly I'm not an expert economist but if there's anything wrong with this, please say.

>>51594468
Okay? I don't play Paradox games.

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>>51594498
>British empire rearranges into a self governing, decentralized Federation.
Highly unlikely without a ruinuos war.
>Russian Republic reorganized into a more democratic, while also socialist state
Also very unlikely with a strong Germany and Britain that aren't involved in a war. Especially with Wilhemine Germany

>>51594498
Russia, surrounded by hostile puppets, and demilitarized USA decide to send a few millions of soldiers to join land war in Asia. Are you even trying?

>>51594456
Stop sperging out. People will always associate communist Poland with USSR, as we were their puppet state anyway.

>>51594456

Im not the one making a hissy fit brother.
Like a said, it was just a random choice from a "Warsaw Pact" folder made mostly for inspiration not for factual correctness.

Poland WAS in Warsaw pact right? Nysa was made in Warsaw pact Poland right?

Doesn't matter really, because you see, you kind of proving my fucking point there buddy.

There is not enough information for a normie twerp that isn't knee deep in studying a topic to be correct all the time. Im not studying it, im just mildly interested so its a given that i will make stupid mistakes like that.

And im not butthurt because you corrected me at all, im actually thankful desu. Its just that 'are you on acid?' comment kind of shows how head up your ass anally retentive you are about making that correction.

>>51594498
3/3
>Chinese nationalism causes Vietnam to also revolt against German colonial viceroys
>due to the logistics of sending troops, inexperience in Guerilla warfare, and excess chinese arms, Germany accepts Vietnam as a sovereign state
>Russia is now growing, support for Socialism falls
>France and Germany begins arms race as German reactionaries hold more seats in the Reichstag, and a war seems on the horizon
>Britain is forced to accept zero control over Indian politics, India split into dominion of pakistan, Burma and India

That's about all so far.

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>>51594543
>Uses HoI2 map with Antarctic strapped on
>I don't play Paradox games

>>51594611
>We were their puppet state
This is modern Polish education.
Assuming you are a Pole at all.

>>51594551
Really? it was very popular both in the dominions and in the UK
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Federation

>>51594596
Where did i say they sent soldiers? i meant millions in aid.

>>51594621
I got the template from /his/.

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>>51594616
>It's ok to be ignorant piece of shit that just knows a broad approximation of facts, because effort is for pussies

>>51594294
>>51594498
>>51594620
Jesus fucking Christ... Why people are always so fucking incompetent when making alt!history settings?

>>51594679
Please tell me what's incompetent about it?

>>51594637
So we were a completely independent nation that could do want we wanted?

Nie spinaj się tak, anon

>>51594644
>Current year
>Wikipedia says so, so it's true

And I guess we are at the core issue why your setting is pants on head retarded

>>51594705
Fucking EVERYTHING past maybe 2nd bulletpoint

>>51594468

>Dude got into more length and made actually plausible scenario than man in hight castle and countless more 'alternative history' scenarios, writing three post about his homebrew for other anons.

>Let bash him without adding anything constructive.

>neo/tg/ the post

fuck you in particular

>>51594708
>Le epic wikipedia meme

Even if the Imperial federation wasn't a popular idea, it's retarded to think a civil war would start over DECENTRALIZATION

>>51593496
The only way the scenario really works is if Russia and Germany develop MAD capabilities at exactly the same time.

If one or the other had nukes first, they'd use them. If they got them at almost the same time you'd see a small nuclear war at the very least.

Short of massive handwaving or Aliums. I don't see it happening.

>>51594679

Fuck you desperate for attention.

>>51594707
Do you even understand what a puppet state is? Check Mongolia under Soviet rule. That's puppet state. Then tell me Eastern Blocks was made out of puppets. I get it, quality of Polish education is shit, and it's going to be even worse starting with next semester, but that's no excuse to sprout bullshit.

To nie pierdol głupot

>>51594731
>Actual plausible scenario
Everything after fall of Paris in 1915 is complete science fiction and impossibilities.

I get it, you see so much text and your brain instantly assumes it's good, in-depth and realistic, but it's a smoking pile of shit.

>>51594679

What a dip shit.

Im startin to think all the sperg out posts are made just by that one dude. You fucking high or your mother burned you hot pockets or something.

>>51594753
It's called a simplification, which is probably what majority of foreigners know about your country. You can't expect everyone to know your history and politics well, unless they are interested in that country in particular.

Just fucking calm down and make some normal counterpoints instead of going full fucking sperg.

>>51594772
Then be a bit constructive, and tell me what is inaccurate

You just seem like a sperg who flips out whenever an alt history scenario is 100% based on what's established and refuses to accept the concept of alternate scenarios leading to further divergence

>>51594551
>>British empire rearranges into a self governing, decentralized Federation.
This was one of the visions of the British empire that was always floating around in the background - ussually advocated for by those who thought of the empires purpose in primarily economic terms.

As an imperial model it lost out in real life, but as far as alt-histories go its not inconceivable.

Not that it would have mattered - rising nationalism in the dominions would have torn it apart any way.

>>51594731
>If it's longer than one post, it's good
It's not working like this. So keep your neo/tg/ bullshit for yourself. Shitty alt!history "Central Powers magically won WW1" is precisely what defines neo/tg/

>>51594813
You don't get it, don't you? It's all bunch of bullshit. All of it. Salvaging it is simply not possible, because it just ignores reality and goes directly to fantasy land. Fucking JAPAN establishing puppet in Tibet. Or Americans unable to compete with German industry. In fucking 1920s. And that's just a starter.

>>51594679
>Why people are always so fucking incompetent when making alt!history settings?
Because they look at historical facts, without looking at the feelings and sentiments of the time.

Stuff like:>>51594294
>>British Cabinet is able to raise debate over whether or not to intervene after the German invasion of Belgium
>>The lack of a strong standing army and the German Naval buildup being overestimated reduces British confidence in joining the war effort
Which might happen with a small alternation of facts. But wouldn't happen given the mindset and public sentiment at the time.

>>51594817
>Shitty alt!history "Central Powers magically won WW1"

But the central powers winning ww1 isn't inconceivable at all. It's essentially a miracle the French held on as well as they did, and Germany brought Russia to collapse. A lack of British presence would probably tip the scales.

>>51594817

>stop liking what i like

no, that is neo/tg/ you sperg
if you have nothing constructive to say gtfo, half of the thread already knows you are just here to bait people

>>51594813
For that scenario to be even semi-plausable, German industry would need to expand 20 fucking folds between 1915 and 1925, meaning roughtly a 40% GDP. If that doesn't tell you how fucking stupid it is, then you are helplessly incompetent at this shit.

You would have to ignore technology, logistics, infrastructure, FUCKING LOGIC and few other things to make this scenario possible.

>>51594838
I only stated one puppet republic, China, and an occupation of manchuria, quality reading comprehension.

>Or Americans unable to compete with German industry. In fucking 1920s.
Maybe because Germany is now one of the most powerful countries in the world? the ww1 boom for the us and ww1 collapse for Germany didn't take place.

>>51594852
Only that you can't just say "British didn't enter the war", because they were fucking close ally of France for previous 15 years. Not entering that war on French side would hurt British interests. And hurt them A LOT, since last thing Brits needed was strong Germany, threatening directly to their world hegemony.

>>51594859
More like "stop liking shitty stuff and pretending it's plausable", but sure, keep being stupid, because you apparently like that.

>>51594889
>Maybe because Germany is now one of the most powerful countries in the world
HOW?!
How are you going to measure their power? With what? Do you even know how economy works, you fucking moron? Or how absurdly big American industry was when compared with German back in the day? That's not something you just magically catch up overnight. Not to mention lacking fucking resources to fuel said industry.
Fucking educate yourself.

>>51594875

breathe faggot, it will be alright

Why some people are so obsessive with factuality in homewbrew scenarios for a fucking role-playing game?

OP, how much of this did you actually use and for how many sessions?
Probably not much.

>>51594909

Pojebało cie anonku?

>>51594909
>Only that you can't just say "British didn't enter the war", because they were fucking close ally of France for previous 15 years. Not entering that war on French side would hurt British interests. And hurt them A LOT, since last thing Brits needed was strong Germany, threatening directly to their world hegemony.

I never stated Britain never planned to join the allied powers, only that it was delayed by debate in parliament.

However, the prospect of Britain backing out of joining France after a defeat at the marne is plausible.

>>51594930
>Why people get angry when idiots make shitty settings based on retarded assumptions and fundamental lacks in education
I don't know, anon. Really, honestly and sincerely I don't know. But if there is something more annoying for me than human stupidity it's a stupidity that entrenches itself and assumes it's ok to be stupid.

>>51594817
>"Central Powers magically won WW1"
I don't think it's that unlikely, but you'd need to alter stuff more for it to pan out.

Like the assassination of Ferdinand failing. And another trigger happening a few years later, leading a slightly more modernized German army to be able to push harder and maintain logistical support better.


A Central Powers victory in WW1 would be interesting. Especially if it lays the ground work for a Action Française to develop into a fascist movement and maybe kick off a WW2.

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>>51594955
I don't care at this point. Just keep your shitty setting for yourself.

>>51594959
>A Central Powers victory in WW1 would be interesting
then go read the history of Kaiserreich

>>51594838
all alt history is fantasy you spesh, how me 100% real alternate history

>>51594957

I mean you sperged out, you really did.

That was completely unnecessary and there are better ways to educate people.

>>51594957
Jesus christ, do you have autism?

You're obsessed with every aspect of alt history being totally grounded in what can be measured. you have legitimate signs of autism.

>>51594959
Only that German army was pushing for war to happen earlier, because what they were (rightfully) afraid was Russian army modernising with French MASSIVE help.
They fucking willingly supported communist movement and get Lenin back to Russia in desperate attempt to just knock Russia out of war one way or another. So no, waiting would do them only more harm, since they were the most modernised army around, and postponing it few years would end up with Russian army getting in their ass with no problem.

>>51594983
AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA

>>51595023
It's the
>Trans Siberian railway would turn Russia into a superpower overnight
meme

>>51595013
>If you don't accept shit, you must have autism
Not even him, but fucking think before you write down your bullshit.

>>51594983
>Just keep your shitty setting for yourself.
what's your cold war redux alt-history then?

>>51593496
As for the source of this, you could shift some stuff around in the Spanish Civil War.

>Left more prepared for war
>Revolutionary elements focus on War Effort instead of forcing change at the worst possible times.
>Soviet Union actually tries to help Republic win instead of using the war as a device to further their own interests.
>UK and France stick to non-intervention
>Nationalist victory after a longer war
>Franco more willing to fully join Axis
>Germany's sucess makes Britian and France less willing to fight a War with Axis, turns to US in a general non-interventionist group, but still continues to develop military strength for fear of a war
>Axis focuses on rebuilding Spain, improving the Spanish and Italian armies and securing already held territory instead of forcibly obtaining new land.
>After defeat SU does similar.
>WW2 doesnt happen.
>Three way Cold War starts around the 40's

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>>51594957

Holy shit, you are the same sperg. To think your comments could probably be appreciated if you only stopped spitting.

>>51595053
>French spending 1/3 of their entire military budget on modernising Russia since 1910
>Meme
Sure son, sure. Apparently being educated now is memery too, unlike sprouting random bullshit.

>>51595055

not him either, but you know there is a big difference between having boundries and not accepting shit and HOW you show that right?
Its not that he isn't right, its how anally retentive he is all about it. But he won, whole thread is basically about him. We are all retard enablers here.

>>51594808
This. Fucking poles are wehraboo level autistic

>>51595055
It's alt history you fucking sperg. Not a fucking lecture.

>>51595061
Seems pretty good, one question, where does Germany stop demanding land? it seems out of character for Hitler to just call it a day with poland. He needed lebensraum.

>>51595059
None, because I find Cold War settings inheritently boring stalemate that goes nowhere. And last thing such setting needs to "spice things up" is suddenly replacing powers that had a chance to play role in bipolar politics with randomly selected country in some sort of alt-history wank.
Besiedes, it misses the entire point, since I'm against this shitty setting in particular, while you try to sidetrack the discussion on "then make better yourself". I don't need nor have to to make my own to point finger and say "it's shit".
Next time before you try using eristics, fucking train them first.

>>51595114

i work with some poles and they are all like that when it comes to history

>>51595136
>None, because I find Cold War settings inheritently boring
Then fuck off out of the COLD WAR thread you massive bellend.

>>51595136
I'm not even remotely interested in cold war alt history but i'll still have a sperg out if someone else's isn't perfectly legitimate

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>>51595114
>>51595142

I'm the Pole he was sperging out at earlier

>>51595158
Fuck, forgot the
>

>>51595152
>>51595158
>Anon starts with WW1 bullshit
>HURRR IF YOU AREN'T INTO COLD WAR LEAVE DURRRRRRRRRRRR!
Supposedly I'm the one sperging out

>>51595117
He thought the UK would ignore the invasion like Italy's taking of Abyssinia and theur involvement in Spain.

He could take Poland and the UK are too nervous to challenge him like he thought they would be.

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>>51595168

We know. Shit I fucking knew form beginning.

So im gonna write it again. Chill with the autism polbro, its not really a thing you should have flight or fight response about.

Is this car better? It should melt your heart.
Deep breaths and constructive criticism from now on. Alright?

no bully pls

>>51595190
It just seems odd for Britain to ignore the invasion of poland. that was the real line in the sand from 1937.

Suggestion: Germany makes the molotov ribbentrop pact a defensive alliance also to keep Britain and france out, that'd work maybe?

>>51595190
*From there the Axis could focus more on spreading out from Morrocco and Abyssinia to gain more African land.

Granted I know less about Germany at this period than I do Spain, so i'm taking more guesses about their expansion.

>>51595023
Good point. I was under the impression things were bad in Tsarist Russia and just kickign the war a few years down the road would make them even more ripe for revolution.

But I confess to not knowing as much as I should about the early Russian revolution.

>>51595220
Lately a guy went on a tour throught entire Africa in Maluch. Like the poster says - "small, but crazy (awesome)".
Locals were sure it's some sort of new model of Indian Tuk Tuk auto rickshaw

>>51595117
>where does Germany stop demanding land?
This. You might have to have someone else in the helm in germany.

I don't think Hitler was willing to stop pushing.

And even then, I think tensions with Russia are going to boil over before nukes allow a real cold war to start.

>>51595220
>>51595289
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIKoWVi5cnw

If I'm correct. he's planning to do the same shit again, but in Asia.
And as much as a crazy idea it's on paper, you can fix Maluch without any mechanical or electrical skills, with most basic tools and taking parts from just about anything. The only downside is how it's an air-cooled engine, mounted in the back of the car, so go figure how it acts when it's really hot.

>>51595189
>anon who hates cold war enters a cold war alt history thread
>starts sperging out when someone says something not 100% historical

>>51595289
>>51595327

neat
fucking love that car

>>51595220
Want a true, 80s style, commie-inspired car? And still being a Maluch in the same time? Then check gallery for this project
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wsz%C4%99do%C5%82az

>>51595310
>This. You might have to have someone else in the helm in germany.
>I don't think Hitler was willing to stop pushing.
Aye, it's always really astounding how so few alt-history ideas just refuse to kill off Hitler early. National Socialism would still be there, just without Adolf's incompetence (anybody else would be a better Fuhrer apart from his charisma).

>>51595417

holy shit this is glorious, not only its maluch but it fuels my fucking /k/ boy inside

>>51595433
I think himmler would be way worse.

Imagine a Germany with Hjalmar Schacht as fuhrer and Heinz Guderian as Chief of the Wehrmacht.

>>51595433
Well, there is a semi-agreement that if he was killed by Maurice Bavaud in '38, he would come to history as one of the better chancellors Germany ever had. The war would probably still go and end up the same way as it did, but you get the picture.

>>51595433
The problem with killing off Hitler is that while he was a terrible military commander and administrator he was an amazing politician.
It's pretty doubtful that someone else could have stepped up and taken control of the nazi state if he suddenly died.
In his absence nazi germany would have either imploded or turned into a much more generic authoritarian state or some combination of the two.

>>51595476
Replace Guderian with von Manstein and you are golden.
Why?
Because von Manstein was one of few German commanders who was taking logistics into account and understood their value, while every other commander of his tier was just making operational plans, but NEVER fucking included logistics into account.

>>51595538
Guderian and Manstein were both great. Guderian was an innovative commander

>>51595476
Guderian is just a meme. I'm not saying he wasn't a brilliant guy, but he was far from the competence contributed to him. Even his own memories put it plain and simple that he was more often than not out of his depth and had a lot of luck.
After all, he was a fucking liaison officer by trade.

>>51595538
>>51595569
Also on that matter who would've been the best replacement for the walking joke that was Goering?

>>51595569
And von Mastein was a brilliant logistician. The main reason why Fall Gelb succeeded against all odds (because unlike the popular imaginary, assault through Ardennes was a MASSIVE gambit and should it fail, France would destroy Germany within next three weeks) was because Guderian and von Mastein planned it together - one drawing plans for breakthrough, the other making sure there is fuel, ammo and other supplies for the machinery.

>>51595607
Depends.

Especially since as much as he's a laughstock. Goering was pretty competent when it comes to managing air force. Out of all people involved into planning Battle of Brittain, he was the only non-shit tier commander. Should they keep listening to his plans, RAF would end up blind, as he was the only person who was pushing for destruction of radar system first, while keep bombing the airfields. Everyone else was pushing attacks on military and/or civilian targets, which end up with RAF regaining initiative, regrouping and pushing Germans out.

>>51595607
To be fair, he was in a hard position when you see how fast Britain was churning out fighters.

>>51595680
>Goering was pretty competent when it comes to managing air force.
Well, he still had some brain farts regarding strategic bombers or naval air arms.

>>51595476
>Imagine a Germany with Hjalmar Schacht
... so China remains as an ally due to being economically importand and Japan is alone, meaning a string of cause-effect events leading to burgers being unable to join the war with Germany, unless declaring it themselves?
After all, States ended up with war with Germany after rest of the Axis declared on them after Pearl Harbor.

>>51595714
Yeah. The battle of Brittan was pretty much unwinnable, given the resources on hand.

>>51595764
Nobody is perfect. And seriously, he really was the most competent person running German air forces. So think how bad his replacements were, if semi-competent generallismo was the best option.

>>51595793
That'd be an interesting turn of events. Would Japan even kicked off the war with the US if they didn't have Germany as an ally?

>>51595794
It was winnable, as long as they were actually doing important things: attacking all sort of air installations. This way RAF was unable to even raise in the air, because airfields were dented and radar stations damaged.
The moment they switched to bombing factories without making Brits unable to muster air response, it was lost.

>>51595848
They would, because it was another string of long plans. You see, Japan declared on US to... attack Australia.
Logical, right?
The point was to spread over South East Asia, which meant they had to get rid of all sorts of British allies. Meaning Australia and New Zealand. So in the extensive planning it was decided that should those two be attacked directly, Americans surely will join. So it's better to attack them first, hit them hard and make sure they will think twice before joining the war, so it will be possible to switch the focus on Australia, knock it out of fighting and secure SE Asia for good, while also removing a lot of Australian forces this way from Burma.

In short - a clustefuck of overplanning. Americans probably wouldn't move in case of Japan going against Australia directly, which by itself was also a stupid plan, since IJA was already bogged down in China AND Burma.

>>51595899
Oh, I forgot to mention.
Japanese Navy and Army were sworn enemies and each acted separately. So imagine the reaction of Army command when they've learned they now also have to fortify and defend all the islands, while also conducting amphibious assaults on American positions, while they already were on their last leg when it comes to managing the clusterfuck caused by China and fights with Brits, not to mention all the occupation issues.

>>51595793
But historical evidence implies that the US intercepted communications about Japanese plans to bomb Pearl Harbor weeks in advance, was monitoring Japanese military communications where they could and had planes and civilians remaining in Pearl Harbor until the bombing.
On top of that, the US likewise received a surrender from Japan eight hours before Little Boy was dropped, but the communication was kept under wraps and then nicely filed away.
The US was already then trying to establish its World Police reputation, which it vaulted straight into after the war. Industrial success in the 1920s coupled with a strong lobbying-based economy tempted right-wing politicians into chest-beating - the US could establish itself as a superpower, the industry could benefit and the politicians could roll in lobbying money.
Germany was a risky opponent, and was already looking to be claimed or wrung for war reparations by Britain or the Soviets. Japan was a budding industrial giant right up to the Pacific, with its own political ambitions because the Russians and Chinese had been trying to annex Japan for generations - if the US beat Japan, they'd get political unity in the country, unparalleled industrial knowhow, strategic placements out the ass and eliminate a potential rival in combating Communism in the East (which is also why the US turned South Korea against Japan after WWII despite Japan funneling oceans of money into the country's infrastructure and public facilities during and after the war).
The only problem was that the Japanese were fine trying to fish the rest of Asia out of the current clusterfuck the continent was in, and it's not good for a country's morale to attack a country mainly focusing its war efforts into peaceful assimilation without warning.
Thus, the US baited the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor through repeated territorial infringements in the Pacific, then called themselves the defenders.

>>51595994
Doesn't change the simple fact Germany would continue trading and supplying China. So rather than American land-lease, it would be still German support. In fact, I think the 2nd Sino-Japanese War would end up postponed due to not having Germans out of the picture, giving Jiang Jieshi that extra few months he needed to fully reorganise his army. For that guy, every single well-trained division more would mean a geometrical increase of power. Another shipment of 10 Pz I would also mean a fuck-huge difference.

>>51595849
The stated goal wasn't just to establish air superiority but force Britain to make peace.

They didn't have the resources available to break the British will to fight.

Germany was hoping for a quick win, but it wasn't in the cards.

>>51595476
But wasn't Donitz always the most trusted person from entire entourage of Hitler? He was designated as "heir" since at least late '40.
>Mfw Donitz actually does his 500 subs plan

>>51596157
Disable ability for air response = automatic air supperiority. If you can't lift your planes, enemy has by default superiority. It's that simple when it comes to operation-level air combat.
So German's ONLY hope for knocking RAF out of picture wasn't about pitched dogfights, but obliterating entire infractructure supporting it. It's easier to destroy airstrip and thus make it impossible to lift those 200 planes than face said 200 planes in air.
Hence early BoB was going in favour of Germans, because that's what they were doing - keeping RAF down, rather than facing it in air.
Cue politicking, cue idiots whispering to Hitler's ear, cue glory hounds and you end up with unwinnable situation.

Like pretty much entire war on German side if you ask me.

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>>51596170
>But wasn't Donitz always the most trusted person from entire entourage of Hitler?
Definitely the most competent as a general leader/politician.

That said, there's always the elephant in the room of the flying mono-brow...

>>51596478
He was always a back-room guy. Important, efficient worker, but with zero power himself.

One facet of German alternate history that would cause all of Twitter to explode if someone actually included it was the Hitler-Himmler divide.
All surviving records point to Hitler literally knowing just enough about the Holocaust to realize that Himmler was doing his job. Himmler's orders to "fight the Jewish problem" were not necessarily martial or even lethal (conglomerate evidence implies that Hitler was personally imagining a mass forced migration to the outskirts of the Reich and no actual killing), but rather just a carte blanche for Himmler to think up something by himself.
It was of course Hitler's error to trust a lunatic like Himmler, but if the specific chain of events that happened in the real world (Hitler dies immediately before the end of the war, and American and Russian forces immediately take the capital and its archives) didn't happen, the Nazi regime would likely never have developed the monstrous reputation it did in the real world.
If Hitler had died and someone else had carried on his legacy, either Himmler would have carried on his grill party on his own (clearly establishing him as the culprit) or exchanges with Hitler's successor would have revealed the lack of previous state-military coordination.
If Himmler had died before Hitler, the concentration camps would have frozen in action and required a top-level state inspection, likely resulting in an immediate shutdown and internal trial to avoid the ridiculous expenses and massive alienation of the international community.
This means that the Nazi regime would have been able to break free of the stain that Himmler put on its reputation in its name, and the Reich would thus not be defined by its atrocities.
A lot of authors, even if they take history into account, tend to project the modern attitude towards Nazi Germany onto historical Nazi Germany, even if most of Germany's war crimes were the result of Hitler giving a howling retard infinite money and no obligation to file reports.

>>51596225
Maintaining air superiority wont push Britian out of the war.
As long as you keep hitting military targets it has very little effect on public morale.

And it was all Germany could do to keep hitting military targets to keep the RAF down.

They wasn't any way of them winning the battle of Brittan. Outside something outlandish like keeping the RAF down long enough for an operation Sea Lion.

>>51596566
>the Nazi regime would likely never have developed the monstrous reputation it did in the real world.
The reputation it already gained around late '43, when Soviet front was moving more and more toward West and everyone realised it's not just Soviet propaganda, but actual stuff going around?

>>51596601
You don't get it, do you?

No RAF in air = ability to keep punching holes in Britain. I mean such moron like Goering understood that, and you don't.

>>51596566
>avoid the ridiculous expenses and massive alienation of the international community
Reminds me of the novel Fatherland. Nazi Germany lasts into the 60s, former U-boat commander goes about uncovering a horrible conspiracy that turns out to be the Holocaust.

>>51596601
>Maintaining air superiority wont push Britian out of the war.
Buddy, you're talking about an island nation. Think about the logistics of that again...

>>51596686
Best moment when he realised from what were made his war-time, military issue warm socks he liked so much when doing patrols on Atlantic.

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http://www.dawnofvictory2289.com/

Going to dump this here.

Dawn of victory started as a mod but the lore is cool as fuck. Basically, its what would have happened if Aliens invaded during world war 2. This lead to the armies of the world uniting and following the subsequent stalemate, a cold war settled in between the three remaining superpowers. Its worth checking it out.

>>51596601
>Maintaining air superiority wont push Britian out of the war.
So you are saying ability to bomb the nation without any repercussion won't put it on its knees?

>>51596665
No it doesn't.

You can keep hitting air fields for decades and not accomplish anything but air superiority if they can rebuild the air fields and crank out new fighters as fast as you can tear them up.

To win long term you also have to take out infrastructure necessary to produce fighters. Germany didn't have the resources to do this. And was continuing to take casualties just trying to keep the RAF on the ground.

The reason they shifted to hitting industrial and civilian targets was they knew they couldn't keep it up indefinitely, and had to try and scare the populace out of the war. It didn't work.

Germany would have been better off allocating those air resources somewhere else.

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>>51596798

>>51596638
The German army at the time had a reputation as thuggish, pillaging mercenaries - not really much different from any other army, and it would be forgotten just like the actions of any winning army. Do you really think the Russians or the Americans were much better? The victor is literally the one with the control over what documents get written down and which get shredded, and a common strategy used by the US in both Japan (the Kono Statement is the most underhanded use of this) was to use left-wing sympathizers with a pretty-sounding degree as well as traumatized, guilty war vets to pin a name and a face on fabricated history.
The Holocaust becoming world news immediately fused with anti-Nazi propaganda and a lack of news regarding the behind-the-scenes workings of the Nazi regime, becoming a hate-cult against Hitler that the Allies supported wholesale in order to have pretty propaganda to cover behind while they ripped apart Germany and Japan. Germany was annulled as a country and had massive reparations extorted from it, while Japan was forced to publicly renounce its core pillar of national pride and religion, had its women rounded up and passed around between the soldiers who ruined their homes, was subject to a comprehensive smear campaign and was deprived of even an army, something that for some reason continues into the present day even though Japan has emptied state coffers multiple times to pay "reparations" for frauds like the comfort women issue.
No matter how you look at it, the Axis was and is a scapegoat for Russia and the US, and the facts are that all countries are assholes in open war. If the war had ended on any other note, the amount of information the citizenry had would likely have been greater, and the Axis powers likely wouldn't have been so comprehensively plundered.

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>>51596798
Heres more art

>>51596815
Yes. Because Russia crumpled as soon as they lost air superiority. As did Germany.

I don't mean to denigrate how important the air war was in WW2, but at the start of the Battle of Britain Germany didn't have the resources to bomb Britain out of the war.

>>51596828
>>51596932
>Being this tier retarded
I've got no more questions

>>51597039
lol
It's alright to just give in when you don't have a counter-argument. There's no shame in being wrong.

>>51596932
>>51597129

The anon doesn't want to talk about it, but I think he means that an island nation with no air superiority is not going to last long as it is dependant on what supplies it can get from the sea, and the navy can only do so far for so long until it crumbles too, as was shown in the med for italy.

And it's not that far-fetched that, after losing their air force and then their navy, the UK couldn't have kept up the fight for long, both in spirit and in actual capabilities. Sea lion would have just been the final nail in the coffin, and probably not that necessary, but the ground troops alone wouldn't have been able to defend against a german attack. They struggled enough during the rest of the war where they were more supported and with naval and air dominance.

>>51596798
>the Wehrmacht found itself the sole remaining organization in Europe capable of restoring order. German forces swiftly took control of territories devastated by the Scinfaxi siege, from the Atlantic Coast to the frontiers of former Poland. The new military government eschewed the divisive racial ideologies that formed the core of National Socialist politics
Nice meme

>>51597316
I agree. If Germany could have done it out probably would have knocked Britain out of the war. My contention is that didn't have the resources.

They were already gearing up for Barbarossa, and hoping for a quick win. At the time, it was a bigger bore then the Luftwaffe could chew.

All this is a bit beside the point. I could see a reasonable alt-hist setting with Germany winning. But I don't see it happening with the Soviet Union still being in the picture for a three way cold war.

>>51597733
>The new military government eschewed the divisive racial ideologies that formed the core of National Socialist politics
That seems decidedly unlikely.

>>51595607
I've always found it interesting that the reports from the Nuremberg Trials pretty much all say that once he was purged of his plethora of drug addictions, he was an incredibly canny, dangerous man. I'd say one of the easiest 'replace Goering with someone competent' points of divergence is to just have him avoid being in the car crash that got him addicted to painkillers in the first place.

>>51594294
>>51594498

>French navy for some reason joins the german navy
>Britain joins war against Russia
>USAs massive economy declining just because of the Germans
>No one in Europe intervenes in the Austro-Hungarian civil war but the Germans
>Britain becomes a decentralized empire
>Congress leaving Washington over economic discontent, while the US also accepts foreign intervention

None of these would ever have happened. The world be destabilized by the rise of Imperial Germany as a colonial power and dominant force in Europe are still interesting ideas. You bullshitted the decline of the USA, though

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>>51594814
Thig ar latha: saorsa airson Alba!
t. Albannach

>>51593973
>The only possible scenario in which there are 3 superpowers are if Britain managed to hold on to its superpower status through the economic collapse of the early 50's. OR if they became a union with France after the suez.
This does make me think of an alternative that wasn't brought up yet. After WW2 all of Eastern Europe was under direct or indirect Soviet control, Britain went full Atlanticist and Germany was weakened and divided. France found itself being a big fish in a little pond and De Gaulle's geopolitical strategy was to shape that little pond into "La Grande Nation", where France would domineer Western Europe, have its own nuclear strike capability, near self-sufficiency in agriculture and energy, and an army capable of operating anywhere around the globe (in short he's the reason why France today isn't Poland-tier irrelevant). The idea behind this was to turn Western Europe (with or without Britain, but most likely without) into a sort of third axis which would mediate -as a neutral party- between the Soviet Union and NATO.

All you need to do to make this a reality are three things that aren't too far outside of the realm of plausibility.
1. Ensure that there is some credible threat from the Warsaw Pact on Western Europe
2. Make sure that America is too late in reacting to this, making Western Europe lose faith in NATO
3. This is by far the hardest: make sure De Gaulle has successors who aren't total cucks and sellouts.
End result: a much more viable and much more powerful EU a few decades early.

Every single alt-histoy nerd fucks it up.

Players dont particularly give a shit about points of divergence, lists of historical events and plausibility.

What matters is the "feel" of a setting, the ability to suspend your disbelief and rationalize it is directly related how enjoyableb and internally consistent it is. Wordbuilding must be done in small steps, not dumping a history textbook on players.

Small, throwaway things like some american NPC coming from the state of Sonora or Lee, some charity workers collecting money for the veterans of the "battle of Never Happened", pop culture changing etc. Settings should care more about how the everymans world changed and how it feels like to play in a setting where germany won WW1 instead of arguing where the borders might lay or how plausible it is. Mostly because actual, real life, 100% happened history is utterly implausble and stranger than fiction. Like that Alexander guy. Or some nondescript tribe not getting wiped out by the volscii but founding an empire that influences history to this day Or willy just letting his alliance expire with the russians for no reason at all.

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>>51594044
Every single thing in your post is dead wrong. Germany had no desire to enter war with the USSR, and the USSR did not aggress upon Germany out of ideological division, but simple politics - they both wanted poland, and towards the end of the pact, Germany's resources were stretched on the western front and its border with Rus unprotected. Things aren't so black and white as forces of good & evil or commies vs nazis, it's always about power. And Germany was fighting basically alone on 3 fronts against all the major powers, with British airbombings of civilian industry in violation of the Geneva convention. Germany's capacity for war was far stronger than any of the individual super powers.

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>>51595220
>>51594808
You're the only one that needs to calm down. And lurk. What's with newfags and being so threatened by anyone arguing for any standard higher than 'lol, who cares'? inb4 I've been here since 2010, I'm not new! Getting corrected on your shit historical knowledge is an opportunity to learn, not triggering your intellectual insecurities so hard you have to resort to defensively shaming the guy with "dude just calm down. are you autistic? you have to be autistic to care about anything lol"

>>51596893
Nice dose of revisionism there m8. Keep taking your pills while you're at it otherwise you'll get the shakes.

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>>51593496

Nice picture...

>>51595994
>It's another episode of Japanese apologise
Are you willfully retarded?

The war warning prior to Pearl Harbor was nonspecific and indicated that we'd receive a declaration prior to commencement of hostilities so we'd given to our Far East command (the Philippines!, etc.) war warning, but Pearl Harbor as a target and sneak attack as a tactic was not indicated by intelligence (to be fair, the surprise nature of Pearl Harbor was due to incompetence on the part of the Japanese Station Chief in the Washington embassy, he spent all day hand decrypting the cable instructing the ambassador to declare war instead of having his communications techs do it for him.

Japan's idea of eastern unity was genocide, slavery, lebensraum, and colonization.

American sanctions were aimed at reduring Japan's ability to make war against American allies, not to punish Japan for economic success. They were instituted in reaction to the invasion of China and would have been removed if the IJA had withdrawn.

The surrender offer received before Hiroshima, as well as the two immediately prior, and the one received between Hiroshima and Nagasaki were rejected because they didn't meet basic minimum terms the US had set forth, like the removal of the military government and occupation of the home islands.

Enola Gay and Bock's Car did nothing wrong.

>>51596601
If you can cripple the RAF, you can seed Britain's harbors with air dropped naval mines until you choke her of American aid, and the U-boats will have much more success if you can deny the Convoys UK based air cover.

Especially if you can keep the US from actively joining the European theater, it will really change the economic dynamic of the war, particularly if the Arctic Route Convoys suffer heavy losses.

>>51596815
The difference between how many tons per day the Luftwaffe could deliver to Britain and how many tons per day the 8th Air force could deliver to Germany is vast.

>>51594731
>>Dude got into more length and made actually plausible scenario than man in hight castle and countless more 'alternative history' scenarios, writing three post about his homebrew for other anons.
The man in the High Castle is fucking retarded, being more realistic or better developed than it doesn't make it good. His setting is essentially Germany always wins the setting.

Britain had little reason to not oppose Germany in 1914 and has literally zero reason to join Germany against Russia.

Here's an alt-history question I've always had.
What if Kaiser Willy had died prior to claiming the throne and one of his brothers took it instead?

>>51594080
>someone would have to beat the shit out of Japan
Alt-History USSR steps in to defend Communist China, who gained far more support and power in their revolutions than the historical PRC. They btfo the Nips, but get a knife in the back from their former pal and Poland-invasion-buddy Germany.

>>51596798
>http://www.dawnofvictory2289.com/

Is this mod based on the Harry Turtledove books or some other WW2 Alien Invasion scenario? Because I loved those books. Its too bad the sequels sagas kind of sucked.

I love alt-history and I'm sad that /tg/ has reached a state of affairs where they'd rather spend their time looking for ways to kill a story before it can even start that try to imagine its possibilities.

The point of Man In The High Castle was to tell a good story in a setting that would be immediately interesting to the audience. How Japan and Germany took over America didn't matter, seeing how America was warped by their conquest and how Americans lived in that different world was what mattered.

>>51604970
We lose out on all the wonderful willy memes.

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>>51604970
>What if Kaiser Willy had died prior to claiming the throne and one of his brothers took it instead?
*Cough*

>>51594468
You're quite the sperg, jesus

>>51599363
> You bullshitted the decline of the USA, though
What is so unrealistic, huh?
Consider the following: all investments and loans given to the Antante in WW1 never bear fruit. This hamstrings economy once. It keeps chugging along but then the Depression occurs - but this time it is localized more to states, as in europe german industry & finances endure and expand.
One could even say it was US rise in RL that was bullshit )

>>51599363
>>French navy for some reason joins the german navy
Entirely plausible. If there is fallout between England and France as France loses the war (Brits betrayed us!!!!!) it is plausible for navy to honourably surrender to the victors (and remain ) then throw their lot with treacherous former allies who would sink them (as was done after France was out of WW2)
>>Britain joins war against Russia
Nothing implausible about that. Do you know, for example, about british intervention in russian civil war? About british plans to assault Caucasus oil fields before WW2? About british plans to attack SU with surrendered german troops right aftert WW2?...

Hey! For alternate scenarios, let's take a look at SU as the source of divergence!

What would happen if the "conspiracy of the military with germans" in SU was not only fully real but also successful? Then, in around 1936 there is a regime change in SU. At the helm there is now military, who have good ties with German military
How would that affect things to come?

>>51593496
Would the USSR have been a superpower if they couldn't roll over eastern Europe to Berlin though?

I feel like if it'd gone that far with Germany still in the picture there would've been nuclear war already.

Also, Twilight Struggle stories.
In my best (that is most interesting) play i (as USA) have managed to lose Europe to Soviet control by combination of DeGaulle, Brush War overtaking Italy and then him throwing a lot of influence to W Germany that i could not counter (had too little of that)
Then i have managed to get back from the brink by grabbing Asia (won war for India, cleared Pakistan with voice of maerica and took it as well), SA (realignment by commies gave me access to one of 2 of his battlegrounds) - and, most luckily, i have got Chernobyl via Grain Sales and that allowed me to get italy back

>>51606778
Scenarios can be thought up. Even if there is no Warshaw pact - if SU isn't ravaged by German invasion, with Britain declining commies can go south, taking over iran (easily as they were occupying it on par with British IRL) then Iraq and probably gaining india. That would have made SU a veritable superpower as well...

>>51606778
>Would the USSR have been a superpower if they couldn't roll over eastern Europe to Berlin though?
The SU doesn't need Eastern Europe to be a super power. They'd probably focus far more on ties with Communist China in the East and Africa/Arabia (Iraq/Iran/Afghanistan).

>>51606841
At the last turn SU had domination of Europe (but not control, not anymore lol) and ME control. I have dominated (or was close to dominating) everything else - and with good asia scoring last turn points were around +9
However, i made mistakes and lost by final scoring. How? I had ME scoring and reformer in hand. I was stupidly afraid of giving 10 points by ME scoring to enemy (why) so i have played Reformer to break control (not much choice as i was under Purge) - and allowed him one more coup that cost me domination of africa. Had i not done that, i could have won
Damn you Gorbachev, damn you to hell. And damn me for being so stupid - i could have neutralized him in a number of other ways

>>51606936
In the end, at final scoring i lost to -4. If i had played last turn differently, that could have been something like +4

>>51606755
So. What would be different for Soviet Union of Marshal Tukhachevsky?
1) new understanding with fascist regimes
2) normalisation with them by throwing local communists to wolves - who needs those stalinists?
3) rollback of contested economic policies internally; probably economy will stabilize better
4) sharp confrontation with France/England (instead of Stalin making amends with them)
5) improbed Molotov-Ribbentropp, probably earlier: poland still gets divided, Baltics taken. However Winter War does not occur and an alliance with Finland is achieved at some capacity
6) Bararossa never occurs - opposition in the army to the plan is too strong. Defensive posture is adapted by Wermacht as well

>>51600717
Yeah but when these posts were made no one was learning anything, they were just saying it was shit and moving on.

Now that everyone has calmed down we're actually having productive discussion.

>>51607213
7) In Germany, opposition to Hitler strengthens as no results are achieved in regards to Sea Lion and North Africa (which i believe to be unwinnable to Germans); in 42-43 Hitler is deposed of
8) Soviet/Nazi sort-of-alliance breaks apart some time later anyway. SU expands south to Iran, southwest taking over turkey (that is a good point to fracture that alliance), makes intervention into China bringing conflict to Japan
9) how can Japan still hang on? Well, let us presume americans were suddenly much less competent and Germany actually managed to help their ally somewhat.
10) War dies out around 1950s as all sides come to understanding about their nuclear capabilities. No major city is nuked up to that point because of fear of retaliation (lets say england threatens germ warfare if London is nuked)

>>51607213
>>51607309
How is this, folks?
Also: probably internal tensions in each side that reduce total nature of the war; Germany had to deal with block of Peten france and Italy who demanded rearrangement internal Axis power structure, in SU there was "trotskyst/stalinist split" parts 2, 3 and so forth coupled with several economics cryses; in anglo-saxon blockBritish/American divide and anti-colonialists had to be smoothed over, appeased etc...

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>>51594022
>Poland on map
I appreciate it as a Pole myself, but I really doubt that if both Soviet Union and Nazi Germany exist as superpowers.

>Ukraine and Belarus too
>Austro-Hungary is still a thing?
>Half of Africa under German control?

Alright, I'm genuinely curious why. Please explain.

>>51607414
One would presume that Germany has beat Russian Empire very badly in WW1, so Poland, Ukraine and Belarus were split off. However, annexations were not really a thing so they remained as puppet states/political battlegrounds

>>51606709
Britain intervened in the Russian Civil war to wipe out the Reds and get the Whites to rejoin the Great War against Germany. There was no motive of conquest for the British to invade a mostly landlocked (the Arctic circle doesn't count. See Russo-Japanese war) Russia during WW1. All plans that you're talking about for post world war ii invasion were in response to the spread of communism westward, and the fear that the USSR would continue to march west after Nazi Germany fell. In fact, any anti Russian planning from Britain only came about as a response to the unstable semi-belligerent communist power that replaced the relatively friendly Russian Empire. There's no Soviet Union in your setting so Britain has no motivation to be anti Russian.

>>51607478
> Britain has no motivation to be anti Russian
I find it funny how you brush off centuries-long traditions of British Russophobia
> See Russo-Japanese war
Do you mean that one war where british helped Japan to arm and openly supported them?

Newsflash: once russia is no more useful against germany, it is business as usual in british-russian relations, which is: containment, containment, containment. To britain spread of russian capital through Asia (or anywhere, really) is no more desireable then spread of comunism, and british would just as well lock horns with russian empire or republic over Persia or Afganistan

>>51593496
As an European, I imagine that things would end up better for us than currently, where we are being led by unelelected bureaucrats who hate europeans, and want to replace us with muslims.

>>51607568
Except in the scenario, Russia has plenty of uses against Germany. In a world immediately after WWI Germany conquers France, the only major continental European power left to oppose Germany is Russia. If the Russian Revolution never happened as this alt history claims, then Britain and Russia would buddy the fuck up against a growing German Empire. In particular, there's no way in hell the British would immediately break every treaty they have once France falls, and send troops to invade Russia alongside Germany. If anything, they would do as they continued to do in WWI, send supplies to Russia to keep up the war with Germany. This alt history setting kinda throws out a lot of logic to make a very pro German setting.

Yes, in peacetime Britain would normally be politically opposed or at least uneasy with the Russian Empire (although Russia was usually too poor for most of the 19th and early 20th century for it to be a true rival to the mighty British empire). But to say that during the political climate of World War 1, that Britain would openly betray Russia in favor of their actual economic and political rival Germany is pants on head retarded.

>>51607654
Noted

Hey, maybe Gannover dynasty just decides to show their true colors in this alt-history? A power struggle aimed at restoring full extent of royal power may account for a change of external policies

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>>51607613
>tfw Europe is kill.
I wish we could go back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XngY3vgH4s8

>>51607702
It's possible, but exchange of power in Britain is never quick and painless, and at this point the House of Windsor has held the throne for a good long time. Even if they did take power back, the country would probably not be able to reorganize itself quickly enough to engage in a full land war in Europe. Similar example would be War Communism in Russia after the revolution

>>51605614
Not based but influenced

>>51605261
Are you at least aware Soviets were supporting NATIONALISTS, and openly hated Chinese Commies, especially Mao? I mean... seriously, what the fuck?

>>51607613
>>>/pol/

How about something completely different?
For example: USSR, Germany, England, Japan, USa all get hit by nukes. There are not many, and they happen to be enough to throw countries first in disarray and then into a bloody quagmire of civil wars, coups, interventions etc.
So, new centers of power rise. Which ones? How about, let s say, China,India and Brazil?

>>51604334
>Another faggot who doesn't know how air superiority works and how to achieve it

>>51600582
>Being this ther revisionistic wrong
>"Nazis and Soviets biggest allies ever!"
>Germany totally had capability to fight war lasting more than 3 months!

>>51608441
>Germany totally had capability to fight war lasting more than 3 months!
Well, didn't they?
Also: what if (like in prevalent soviet propaganda) all nazi-occupied countries were put on war footing and dedicated their resources to war production? I am speaking about france most of all - i have heard french contribution to german war effort was between insult and a joke given their caoabilities

>>51608427
When is this exchange happening? If a bunch of other countries are opening up on each other, India and Pakistan won't waste any time to nuke each other, and I don't see the USSR getting hit without the PRC taking a couple hits themselves, but let's stick to your list of targets. You're definitely right about China, less sure about India just because China won't let them get too powerful.

The obvious surviving power in Europe is France. They're nuclear themselves, and are probably the de facto leader of NATO now. They'll be heading the recovery efforts in Europe.

>>51608593
They didn't. Their industry run out of resources other than steel after two months fighting Soviets. And before that, they were entirely depending on Soviet imports, because they NEVER prepared a fucking wartime stockpile of important materials. So no, they didn't.
French contribution to German war effort was literally reduced to selling food at bargain price. At least when we are talking about Vichy France, since terrain occupied directly by Germans provided mad amount of coal from Nord-Pas de Calais and Saar-Warndt (the last one wasn't even occupied per-se, since it was the the hot potato going back and forth between France and Germany, with sizable part of population being German)

>>51594735
Imperial federation was never going to happen because it either meant India would either need to go, remain outside the federation, or be gerrymandered so hard it might as well be outside the federation, and there was no way Britain was going to become an appendage of the Raj.

>>51606755

The funny thing is, that nearly happened. After stalins purgers the SU was teetering on the brink of collapse and open revolution. You have no idea how brutal and repressive stalinism was. No one was safe, everyone from street sweeper to general could have been randomly and unjustly purged on a whim. The NKVD had execution quotas of "wreckers" and they often padded it with random innocents to make themselves seem more useful.

If not for hitler invading and rallying the soviets against him communism would have been finished by the 50s.

>>51608609
Well, you seem to be right about France
Thing is, for this kind of scenario to play out there should still be alterations to the world history

How about this:
After russian revolution germany manages to secure a peace with Antante (actually somewhat close to "no contributions" stuff they wanted), then quite soon germany gets socialist revolution anyway. probably France as well. Some decade later, after couple of counter-revolutionary coups, we have still revanchist Germany that has somewhat sane race policy which enables them to be first to develop nuclear weapons. krauts being krauts, they stumble on the great doctrine of "nuclear blietzkrieg" that leads to the fine results of devastation of all things around and devastating response with germ warfare that cripples their capabilities to properly capitalise their military gains. Things fall apart, badly, as in - german submarines with nuclear mines going rogue badly - and no one from first world countries walks away unmauled.
That sets the stage for european disillusionment and rise of secondary centers of powers that wage thir Cold War (seeng as the last hot one was probably even more horrific then one we have got IRL)

>>51608679
>Implying it wasn't finished by mid-60s anyway
Brezhnev made sure of that.

>>51594735
>it's retarded to think a civil war would start over DECENTRALIZATION
Dixies/yankees?..
decentralisation and secession are never too far apart

>>51608679
> If not for hitler invading and rallying the soviets against him communism would have been finished by the 50s
I kind of doubt that. As a counter-example: Cultural Revolution in China was disastrously devastating, yet the rule of CCP endured.

> You have no idea how brutal and repressive stalinism was. No one was safe, everyone from street sweeper to general could have been randomly and unjustly purged on a whim
Well, i do have some ideas. I have read about it a lot.
let em give you an example: number of people repressed for being polish spies was on a couple of magnitudes larger then polish intelligence ever had (as was discovered when polish intelligence archives were investigated by soviets)

>>51608634
Didn't their truck fleet had been reduced by more than 50% by the battle of Moscow, and the situation was so bad in 1942 that a shitload of german generals were defending the demechanization of several tank and motorized divisions to use their trucks elsewhere?

>>51594008
Not bad. Let's try.
The following elements will change from normal History :

>February 1917
Revolution throws the Tsar out of power in Russia.
Instead of keeping the fight, the Duma agrees to end the war immediately and starts open negociations with Germany for "an armistice as a gesture of mutual goodwill toward peace".

This has three short-term results :
1) The bolcheviks don't have the same amount of political food to rally the population against the Duma, since it did what the people wanted.
2) Germany, confident that a favorable treaty is imminent with Russia, starts planification for moving troops from Eastern Front to Western Front sooner.
3) The faction of the german Chancelor gains some weight to cancel unrestricted submarine warfare.

>March 1917 :
A less harsh Treaty of Brest-Litovsk enters into effect a full year sooner than IRL.
It makes no provision for independant Ukraine and Belarus.
It also lighten the financial compensation of Russia to Germany.

This is the final nail in the coffin for unrestricted submarine warfare.
Germany makes an official apology to the USA for the Zimmermann Telegram, with an appeal to understanding the "pratical nature of politics and the necessity for the Reich to consider all eventuallities to protect its people".
An exceptionnal compensation for the losses of the sunked american ships is also offered "as a goodwill gesture to preserve peace in our time between the Old and the New Worlds".
Public opinion in the USA is then so much fractured over the war that the Selective Service Act is killed right in his tracks.

>May 1917 :
German troops in the Eastern Front finish to redeploy on the Western Front.
Many French troops go on mutiny following the disastrous Nivelle Offensive.
This and the added weight of several hundred of thousands of Germany's Eastern Army, made the more defensive-minded Petain able to take command of the French army and to stop large-scale offensives.

(cont)

>>51608416
What's /pol/ about that statement?
Take a look at what is going on in Europe.
EU is led by unelected bureaucrats and the immigration rates of non-europeans into europe exceed the native birth rates in many European nations.
Whether or not the ongoing demographic replacement is intentional, can be discussed, but there is no denying the fact that demographic replacement is precisely what is going on in many European countries, especially ones like Germany, France and Sweden.

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>>51600582

>Hitler Dindu Nuffin

>>51595994

>Japan Dindu Nuffin

>Rape of Nanking didn't happen

>Japan totally officially surrendered before the atomic bombs dropped

Goddamnit when will Weebs/SJWs/Pol get banned from talking history? Not even the Japanese in the know push the Japan Dindu Nuffin maymay outside of a vocal minority.

>>51604062

He's a Weeb or SJW who blames Whitey/The West/America first ASAP .

>>51608593

Adam Tooze already went into how Germany's infrastructure and resources were too limted and how they played a serious role in the direction she pursued.

>>51609461
> Adam Tooze already went into how Germany's infrastructure and resources were too limted and how they played a serious role in the direction she pursued
I would be grateful for the name of that work and/or scan of it

>>51609384

>t.polfag

Next you'll find crying about muh White Genocide (while denying the Holocaust and/or Imperial Japan's antics).

>>51609526
You present no arguments to refute any of my statements, and instead attack a strawman.
Are you intellectually dishonest, or just weak?

>>51609526
Also, the ongoing demographic replacement is not a conspiracy theory. Germans becoming a minority in their homeland is fucking celebrated by leftists.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK-U6Eaiz3g

>>51609306
>1918 :

Same as IRL on the Western Front, except that :
-The american troops are not there, depriving the Entente of nearly 2 millions men
-The shipping of american material to the UK is undisturbed, helping to fuel the logistics of the Entente.
As a result, Germany managed to hold the line through all of 1918.
The German Revolution still happens but it is a less rapid and decisive affair.
Peace talks start on a much more equal ground.

In Russia, however, the bolcheviks have finally gained the political clouth and organization control to launch their Red Revolution.
However, with the tsarist elements of the Russian Army less butchered by the war than IRL, the Revolution is less decisive.

>>51609515

It's called the Wages of Destruction. You can read copies here:

http://gen.lib.rus.ec/search.php?req=Wages+of+Destruction+&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=title

For a peak:

https://infogalactic.com/info/The_Wages_of_Destruction

>>51609578

> not a conspiracy theory

Sure it isn't. It's what you get from bloated nanny states, more and more citizens who are beyond the peak working age but aren't dying faster, and an economic model that require citizens to breed at a significantly higher rate. You can kill the darkies but that won't help the mentioned issues.

One of the libraries that are restricted at my country. What luck
Well, there is always Tor

>>51609756
>Sure it isn't. It's what you get from bloated nanny states, more and more citizens who are beyond the peak working age but aren't dying faster, and an economic model that require citizens to breed at a significantly higher rate. You can kill the darkies but that won't help the mentioned issues.

What makes you think that I like these fucking nanny states. They were built to cause this problem, so that it could be "fixed" by fucking replacing us and destroying our nations, heritage, culture and very peoples so that nationalism could never rise again and threaten the hegemony of these rootless bureaucrats.

>>51609526
We've already had that, see >>51596893

Fucking /pol/acks

>>51609592
>1919 :

>Russia :
Civil War, with the reds not winning at all but the White being too divided to make good on their situation.

>Germany :
The Reich felt eventually, replaced by a democratic government that had very little stability.

>China :
May Fourth Movement

>1924

>Russia :
The Civil War is still ongoing but the reds clearly losing.
Lenin is dead and the Party is now plagued by factionalism more than ever.
Russia is divided into various smaller nations, each led by either warlords, soviets or democratic governments, with no formal recognition of each others.

>China :
Russian communists fled to join the communists among the KMT, which back then was balancing between right-wing nationalism and communism, searching for a "chinese way".
Since communists are internationalists, they see nothing wrong with letting the "lost cause" of Russia drop and to jump into the potentially successful Chinese revolution to come.

>Europe :
Fascism is gaining ground in Italy and right-wing factions are rising across Europe in response to socialists and communists.

(cont)

>>51609461
If you had actually done any research, you'd know that the Rape of Nanking is extremely dubious in the form it's normally considered.
There are no recorded Japanese communications anywhere describing any coordinated pillage of Nanking, and indeed the individual acts of plunder can all be ascribed to the fact that the Japanese army was experiencing a lull in troop movements and thus had a shitton of soldiers being stopped next to a huge city.
The number of casualties, also, was never confirmed - the Chinese government put out the 300.000 figure, and the American government promptly started using it. There was never actually any research involved - the whole thing, like the "comfort women" "issue", was created as a pre-packaged historical event that the US pushed to justify its treatment of the Japanese (have you heard of the RAA?). Pieces of "evidence" (like the picture you're showing, which shows an unidentifiable but small amount of bodies which could have been civilians, could have been militia and could have been soldiers) were glued together with a predetermined conclusion and made uncounterable by political ties with China and South Korea.
Howsabout I actually see you put out some evidence or even some arguments? It's appalling to see seemingly intelligent people break down in a heap of regurgitated 70-year-old propaganda and trendoid "it's cool to hate Japan because weebs" edgelord statements.
The US, China and South Korea all had shared interests (political, economical, territorial, industrial) in smearing Japan, while Japan found itself damned by a combination of an apologist policy and a clique of left-leaning (or zainichi Korean) academics with peripheral involvement with the war who were made into mouthpieces for propaganda.

>>51596899
oh dear god they actually built that monstrosity in this timeline

10/10 kek'd like a madman

I want /pol/ to leave this thread and go back to their hugbox

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>>51609974
>Rape of Nanking is extremely dubious
Even fucking Japanese own most "optimistic" files talk about 70k civilian casualities, you fucking inbreed

>>51609974
What next? Holocaust didn't happen?

>>51609794
>1927

>China
Shanghai Massacre
Chiang Kai-shek, a general and politician, organize purges of communists among the ranks of the KMT.
This pushed the communists to changed their strategy from infiltration and subversion into open revolt against the KMT.

>1937

>Europe :

Fascism is on the rise everywhere and specifically in Germany.
While less overwhelming than IRL, the victory of Adolf Hitler happened a few years before and he has been consolidating his power while probing England's and France's will to stand against Germany and its allies.

The lack of USSR means the anticomintern pact is less about a European front against Russia than it is about a fascism front against communism inside Europe, making it less militarist and more political in nature.

The UK and France are worried about Germany. They fear that it could rally most of Eastern Europe and the Russian States into a loose nationalist alliance against the democracies.

As IRL, communism is peacefully slowly rising in France but still cannot simply take over.

Poland, born out of the peace negociations of 1919, is a military dictatorship and consider an alliance with Germany, much like Hungary and Romania did. But it is worried about Germany's lust for its territory and enjoys a good relation with France and Britain so it stays neutral for now.

>Russia :

Many of the Russian nations are still fighting each other, though most don't have the ambition to unify all of Russia.
They are rather happy to protect their borders and some of them have been even recognized by either the League of Nations.

>China :
Marco Polo Bridge Incident
Japan takes the glove off and starts a full invasion of China.

IRL, the KMT had received support from both the USSR and Germany as both tried to nurture diplomatic ties with China.
Here, without the USSR, the KMT aligned with Germany... which then abandonned it for Japan.
Without the USSR's influence, the CPC doesn't ally with the KMT against Japan.

>>51610047
To be fair this thread is an excellent /pol/ bait

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>>51609974
>Japanese war crime denial

Kek, this is some serious mental gymnastics here.

The Japanese military was responsible for some of the worst atrocities of the war, thanks to an attitude that pervaded the military of disdain for the weak and those who surrendered. This combined with the frankly brutal treatment of subordinates within the Imperial army resulted in a culture that was perfectly willing to condone the rape and killing of those who were unfortunate enough to fall into Japanese hands. I think your argument would be stronger if Japanese troops hadn't killed/raped civilians en masse pretty much anywhere they were stationed. This is of course without getting into the contemptible treatment of allied POW's by Japanese captors, which was widespread and widely recorded.

Its incredible how lightly Japan got off for the terrible things they did in Asia. I say this as someone who grew up in areas formerly occupied by the Japanese (my garden still has the impressions of the trenches and shell holes) and has heard of Japanese cruelty from those who experienced it first hand.

>>51609974

>THEY
>DIN
>DU
>NUFFIN

>>51610047
Fun fact: I for one have never gone to /pol/ in my lifetime, and likewise I have never been on Reddit or any other scapegoat sites.
If you're really that sure you're right, come with some arguments instead of blaming bogeymen.
>>51610071
Yes, yes.
The country was literally occupied by the US for years, and there are plenty of historical precedents (for example the Kono Statement or the statements ascribed to Dr. Aso) that show that the US had an active policy of using Japan's apologist policy and the left-leaning academic stratum to fabricate historical atrocities on Japan's part. Once you can come with actual evidence instead of something a literally occupied government deprived of an army and of its own legislation put out, come back.
>>51610085
And there's the old bogeyman. The Holocaust did happen, because there's actual physical remaining evidence and thousands of soldiers, guards, officers and survivors who can bear witness to it. Yet the Rape of Nanking, supposed to have a twentieth of the casualties of the Holocaust (an industrialized killing plot which took many years and multiple specially constructed facilities, as well as a practically independent secret-police branch led by Himmler to pull off), has no evidence pulling it out of the many times more realistic assumption that it was just a gory battle (that don't have the name Iris Chang attached, at least).
You must have something better. You must have actual evidence. You must be able to at least know what I'm talking about when I mention names and events.
I understand that you might disagree, but I'm the one putting out proof and you're the ones who have to dispute it. If you can't counter me, then there's no shame in not arguing in the first place. You don't have to admit I'm right, just don't make a mess out of not wanting to admit you're not well read on the topic.

>>51610093
its why I don't like seeing the Nazis being discussed on /tg/: /pol/ are like a bunch of flies. Stick out some shit they can smell, and they'll come a-swarmin', derailing actual conversation with white nationalism and deranged "facts".

Only plausible way of germany "calming down" while being the third reich was if the generals did their coup and were deposed in a short time by an government formed by "moderate" national socialists (that thing almost completely dissapeared by the 40's). Both generals or nazis would be unwilling for a non-direct war with USSR being that close to their borders and their ideology basically requiring for them to be eliminated. Also both the US and the USSR don't seem like they would allow for a germany dominated europe.

With a parlamentiary government in a weak position,with the NSWP as a major force that could be possible. Even with that we are talking of a seriously weakened reich. Don't even know if they would keep their influence on italy.

>>51610168
Aside of Rape of Nankin, there is fuckload of other atrocities commited by Japs. Like fucking Unit 731 or using Manchuria as opium factory to then make a profit on selling it to China.
Seriously, why are you even doing this? It's not like you are even Japanese, so it's not a matter of national pride or old shame.

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>>51610168
>No evidence
>Japanese own archives and reports are not evidence

>>51607434
>One would presume that Germany has beat Russian Empire very badly in WW1
Well, they did. Brest-Litovsk and all that. Russia burnt a fate point to get ouf of this ahead.

>>51610229
either he's a hardcore weeb or some fuckhead that needs to take the opposite position from facts and reason

>>51610168
>I for one have never gone to /pol/ in my lifetime
Which means you are unironically retarded and deny one of the biggest war attrocities ever commited for the sake of it.

>>51610249
>Well, they did
They didn't. They had a complete stalemate, and then used it as a bargain chip with new government to simply piss off and leave them be, while Russians were busy with home affairs.

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>>51610244
>tfw they printed it in their fucking newspapers
>tfw this idiot is still going to try to deny it

>>51610164
You do know that the one single recorded event of Japanese soldiers actually imprisoning and raping civilians (in Indonesia, not in Korea, China or Manchuria) had the implicit soldiers punished and the instigator shot in a matter of days?
The only things you're saying are "the Yellow Man is cruel, and I know because I live in a country that was flooded with anti-Japanese propaganda after they won the war and had the freedom to alter and withhold documents as they saw fit".
If you want to hear about the real culprits, then go look up massacres in the Vietnam War on Wikipedia. Notice the three massacres perpetrated by the Korean army (and I bet you didn't even know they were involved) that made My Lai look like a picnic, and then go to the Korean version of the page, fire up Google Translate and notice they aren't there.
Do you trust countries that still perpetuate these kinds of lies in the modern day? I can come with myriads of examples, and this is just a little appetizer.
Also, Japan was forced to relinquish its state religion and its traditional ruler, made to pay reparations over the course of more than half a century, made into the sneering villain in US-sponsored history until even now, deprived of the right to have an army, had its women rounded up and used as actual, documented sex slaves by the RAA - the list just goes on.
>>51610244
The Kono Statement and the use of Aso Tetsuo by Senda Kaku to lend credence to the "comfort women" prove that even Japanese sources at the time can't be trusted. The US literally ruled Japan at the time, and had any and all rights to purge, fabricate and modify the documents.
Japan also took an apologist policy after WWII in the belief that the US would make good on its promises of a peaceful occupation, and this was used to wring false testimony from war veterans and left-wingers in order to paint Japan as the villain.
>>51610256
If you can't say anything more than that, I think we know who's won.

>>51610210
The problem is that the coup needs to be incredibly early. Once the invasion of Poland kicks into gear, there is no anti-Hitler coup that will end the war because there's no anti-Hitler coup that's willing to let any part of Poland or Czechoslovakia go.

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>>51610289
>Lol, none of this counts!
>Because I say so!
>Won too!
This is why people hate /pol/

>>51610087
>1939 - 1941 :

>Europe and Russia

World War 2 starts with Hitler invading Poland, turning to the West and then resuming invasion of the rest of Europe, either through military power or by rallying the nations to the Axe.

The Russian States are split :
- There are those which want to ally with the Axe so they can claim the territory of their neighbours in the following "New World Order"
- There are the others which have read the manifesto of Hitler and understand that there's no place for them in the "Living space" that Germany is carving for itself.

However, both are fucked : the massive industrialization of Russia never occured, as there was no Stalin to centralize Russia and force its people to sacrifice everything for it.
Russia is conquered easily because it is both politically divided and unprepared military and economically.

>China

Much like IRL : the KMT is holding as best as it can against Japan.

While the communists are helping in the war itself, they are growing their popular in preparation for a national Revolution, either against the KMT or against Japanese's occupation.

>Others

America's indirect support to China and the ambitions of Japan in the Pacific eventually push the Japanese to attack at Pearl Harbour.
This also forces the rest of the Axe to declare war on the USA.
This is here done much more lightly, as the Axe isn't threatened by the USSR and is confident in its capacity to repel any landing on mainland Europe.

While Germany could help military Japan in China, Japan is against this, as this could let Germany ask for concessions in the East.
However, there are many trade agreements so as to lessen Japan's raw material needs. Germany can afford such agreements as Russia now provide a lot of raw materials.

As such, Germany is now focusing on Africa, the Near-East and Britain.
Japan starts its south-east asian campaign.

(cont)

>>51610289
>go look up massacres in the Vietnam War on Wikipedia
>look up on Wikipedia
And this faggot has the audicity to claim official surces are false and shouldn't be trusted

>>51610255

He could just be a SJW following the Noam Chomsky School of History.

>>51610289
>Japan also took an apologist policy after WWII in the belief that the US would make good on its promises of a peaceful occupation, and this was used to wring false testimony from war veterans and left-wingers in order to paint Japan as the villain.
If that was remotely true, a lot more of the japanese government would have been executed after the war.

>>51610324
>Noam Chomsky School of History
Elaborate, since that rings me absolutely nothing. Some sort of contrarian fuckhead or massive revisionist?

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>>51610289
>The tier of this of conspiracy theory

>>51610324
>Noam Chomsky School of History.
Noam Chomsky never fucking denied any of this, moron (and reminder, not only are the claims that he denied Pol Pot's atrocities bullshit, Pol Pot was Reagan's man).

>>51610343
Booty bothered burgerlanders who hate that Chomsky isn't in lockstep with american foreign policy.

>>51610269
I'm sitting here with a literal, paper-and-ink book describing in detail exactly how these newspaper reports were coerced and how the few real stories were bent in order to make the US look like the heroes. If you actually know any of the incidents, I can discuss those with you.
>>51610302
I posted actual names. Actual events. Actual historical facts. If you have such an upper hand, disprove them. I gave you the material, but you've yet to do anything with it.
You're asking for evidence, you get it and you choose to strawman nevertheless. I'm not particularly trying to antagonize anyone, I'm just sitting here baffled at how not a single actual argument instead of an ad hominem or a strawman has made its way to me yet.
>>51610316
What I'm saying is the exact same thing as what you're saying. The fact that these massacres have been historically documented yet are actively kept from being translated to Korean is proof that something's going on. Also, have you ever heard about any massacres bigger than the My Lai one in Vietnam? Says a lot about who wants you to believe what.
>>51610340
The US wanted to look like the heroes. What worse way is there to do that than executing the government you're leading from the shadows? No, rather keep the government members alive as a show of political mercy and spread propaganda using war veterans and left-wing academics.
>>51610361
The things I'm referring to are all actual historical events. Go do some research instead of expecting me to listen to you saying "he's saying something different from what Mrs. Kim and Headmaster Choi told me in California school, so he must be wrong".

>>51610314
>1942

The USA and Britain are now in a bit of a pickle :
Germany is strong in manpower, what with not losing millions of men against the USSR.
The lend-lease to the USSR doesn't happen. Instead, it is done to the KMT, so that it can bleed Japan dry while the USA focus mainly on the Pacific and building their fleet.

Germany, having reached most of its objectives with the subjugation of continental europe and of Russia, is only fighting to force Britain to sign a peace treaty favorable to Germany.
As such, it is turning its forces to industrialize, hoping to build a fleet and air force large enough to threaten the domination of the Allies at sea while putting an end to air raids.

The KMT is arming fast now but its ranks are infiltrated by more and more communists.
Here, let's assume incompetence in the part of the political leadership of the KMT because, without that, Communist China is dead right now and then.

>>51610385
>Go do some research
Look who's talking

>>51610385
Thanks for derailing a half-decent alt-history thread into sperging contrarian bullshit. Medal of fucking approval from /pol/. Even Virt is proud, son

>>51610385
>I'm just sitting here baffled at how not a single actual argument instead of an ad hominem or a strawman has made its way to me yet.
Welcome to debating leftists.

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>>51610371
Meanwhile I've googled the guy. Now I've got a question - the fuck a linguist has to do with history at all?

>>51610385
>>51610414
Pic related

>>51610405
>muh /pol/ boogieman
>DO NOT QUESTION THE HISTORY MY TEACHER TOLD ME!

History is written by the victors. You are a fool if you blindly believe the account of WW2 that Allies made.

>>51610385
>The chinese jew is keeping the proud japanese superman down!!!

Also your Vietnam example is dumb. Of course Japan didn't get to cover shit up because it was completely fucked up in total war. Meanwhile the US only had a token force in Vietnam and the faction that really lost the war is South Vietnam.

>>51610385
>The fact that these massacres have been historically documented yet are actively kept from being translated to Korean is proof that something's going on
Yeah, that you are rambling conspiracy theorist denying Japanese wartime atrocities happend for no real reason other than making a shitstorm.
Have fun with that.

It always amazes me that there are people out there in the net willingly claiming some serious shit didn't happen just so they can grab 5 minutes of spotlight and attention.
But then I recall it took few lawsuits to prove bunch of faggots Holocaust was real.

>>51610385
>I made shit up, but I said I didn't
>This makes me correct, its those pesky historians who are wrong

>>51610443
>You are a fool
Said the guy calling Japanese innocent.

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>>51610443
>You are a fool if you blindly believe the account of WW2 that Allies made
>Instead I trust my internet friends at holohoax.com

>>51610443
nobody is denying that the Allies did some shady shit. Especially the Soviets. Compared to the rampantly genocidal, expansionist enemies they faced though? and Italy It's all but definable as a textbook case of grey versus black morality.

Though inevitably you'll reply and make some mental gymnastics to explain how it was all the American's fault they were dragged into a war which began with a sneak attack and was declared upon them, respectively.

>>51610385
>>51610443
You know, it's an actual crime in my country to deny war atrocities. 3 year of prison time without parole and a court-appointed fine you need to donate on chosen museum or remembrance fundation.
So whenever I see people being contrarian for the sake of argument in the net, I really wish I had means to legally track down their IP and simply press charges.

Being anonymous doesn't make you any less of a shithead.

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>>51609974

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>>51610471
I am not that guy. There are multiple people in this thread.
I am not well read on the japanese side of the war, seeing how I am a Finn.
However, me and my countrymen have personal experience of how the victors of the war smear their opponents to no end, and of how treasonous internal elements of your own people join in the smearing.

After we lost the war against the Soviets, our wartime leaders, our heroes, who had saved us from total annexation into the Soviet union, were ruthlessly smeared as war criminals, all the organizations that took part in aiding us in the war effort were labeled as fascist organizations, including shit like the Lotta movement (civilian organization formed by women that worked with supporting the army in logistics etc). We had Soviet observers linger in our country for like a decade, ensuring that all the demands of the soviets were met, and later, during the cold war, treasonous leftist academia attacked our war veterans relentlessly, smeared them and did their utmost to paint us Finns as the wrongdoers in the war, despite us literally having fought against an invading force.

Thank god that the USSR collapsed, because that ended the stranglehold of these leftist traitors over our country, at least for a while. Now we have a different breed of traitors, the ones that advocate for globalism and multiculturalism. Hopefully we'll be able to deal with them permanently soon enough.

>>51610484
nice strawman.

>>51610525
>literally advocating for thought police.
You leftist cunts never cease to amaze me with your hypocrisy.

>>51610164
>Its incredible how lightly Japan got off for the terrible things they did in Asia
They sold whatever they could just to save their asses and then realpolitik turned them into important ally of US to keep Soviets in check.
The common joke is how we landed on Moon due to German and Japanese wartime crimes.

>>51610573
>nice strawman.
>You are all leftists

kek

>>51610603
Wanting to jail people for wrongthink is a very leftist position.

>>51610385

Are you talking about Joshua fogels book ?

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>>51610615
>Wrongthink
>Denying Holocaust is now wrongthink

>>51610573
>Finn
>Not left himself
At least fucking try

>>51610615
The authoritarian right and the left are both guilty of that, thats why they're authoritarian.

>>51610573
>literally advocating for thought police.
You realize that false advertising is a crime in most countries, yes?

>>51610593
Japan had absolutely no contribution to the space program and unit 731's experimental data was known to be absolutely worthless within like a year of getting it.

The German contribution was also very little (WvB was mostly a figurehead), but people with a limited awareness of science have lionized them a lot mroe because they were a lot more public (and Nazi medical data is also almost entirely worthless, afaict the hypothermia studies have like 3 cites and one of them is someone debunking the myth that they were ever relevant or good research)

>>51610625

because we have Eye witness accounts to parts of the massacre

for example Masatake Imai saw a mass grave and Yuji Maeda, saw recruits executing Chinese prisoners-of-war with bayonets so there are first person accounts of the atrocities, and evidence that recounts of it was supressed by japanese officials, here the usually accepted toll is 20k

>>51610630
Yes, it is.
Any attempt to forbid and punish people for having certain thoughts and opinions falls under thought policing and punishing "wrongthink".

Are you a german by chance?
I pity them. The German people have been so utterly decimated and destroyed since the end of the war. They will go extinct within the next 2 centuries, because they have been so thoroughly demonized and demoralized that even advocating for the existence and continuation of their own people is seen as deplorable nazism.

>>51610651
True, but in the western world, there has been no authoritarian right wing governments in power in decades.
Nowadays, the only ones pushing for punishing wrongthink are leftists.

>>51610646
What makes you think that we Finns are some ultra leftists? Sure, we have them here, but they are borderline traitors in my eyes. I'm a nationalist, first and foremost, because nationalism is what literally saved my people from extinction. I hate leftists, because they work towards subverting and destroying the our people and future by advocating for multiculturalism and globalism. Those ideologies serve only to harm my people in the long run. I don't want Finland to turn into a Brazil tier multicultural hellhole.

>>51610661
Son, the stuff from 731 was basis for epidemiology till late 70s, when we finally gained access to better tools. Likewise, certain symptoms of botulism and syphilis were studied only there, since they required terminal or outright dying patients.
I'm not the other anon and I'm not claiming it was some sort of ground-breaking discoveries, but it was still important enough to not hang all the people involved in that shit (and they fucking should)

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>>51610718
>>>/pol/

>>51610718
Not letting Stalin annex Finland after the continuation war was a mistake.

>>51610718
I don't exactly like the left and I'm glad the pendulums swinging again, but its disingenuous to say that the right hasn't also been responsible for suppression of opposing views and things they deem "unsavoury".

The UK is currently conservative run and those guys have been making use of the lefts infighting to push through some rather authoritarian measures against stuff they deem morally dubious.

Thats also ignoring the religious rights scares of not too long ago when D&D taught satanism and video games were murder training tools that needed to be banned.

>>51593496
Germany lacks the military, industrial, political, or cultural ability to become a superpower. You'd be more likely to get the British Empire, or perhaps some kind of Franco-British Alliance, as a third superpower.

>>51610759
>270+ posts in
>Comes to post without reading the thread

>>51610781
Doesn't mean I'm wrong.

>>51610718
I'm not sure you understand the difference between thinking wrong and openly denying facts involving death of few million people.

But then again, you are a /pol/tard, so what to expect anyway

>>51610388

>1945

Despite the best efforts of Germany, the naval domination of both the USA and Britain remain overwhelming.
Large air wings of German pilots are based in Japan to protect it against US bombing but it isn't able to prevent the large-scale destruction.

In China, while still not exactly equal to the USSR, the KMT is rolling back on Japanese troops.

Victory isn't near for the Allies but it's only a matter of time, really :the atomic bomb is nearly completed, a weapon that will make strategic bombing on Germany really efficient.

The tables are turned, however, comes when the first German atomic bomb is dropped on Manchester on the 1st April 1945

Britain receives an ultimatum from Germany to surrender unconditonnaly.
It delays it for about a week, long enough to formaly grant independance to all of its colonies.
Then the second bomb falls on London and the population screams for peace.

The USA are in a difficult situations.
They'll have their own bomb soon but they cannot hope to make an impact on Germany, what with having lost all bases in range of it.
Germany cannot bomb the USA either but that depends on the capacity of the USA to maintain naval supremacy.
Many are pushing for a separate peace with Germany but Hitler's conditions for peace includes :
- America is to stop helping China
- America is to abandon all claims on the Pacific in favor of Japan
- America is to pay financial reparations to Germany for the air raids.

Most of the former British Empire is in chaos and the USA know they'll soon have to evacuate their bases in there, if only because German planes could reach them and drop atomic bombs.

With the atomic bombs, the German could also destroy all american bases in range of Japan and also be a major threat to the navy, meaning that it would become near-impossible to supply China.

Despite all this, following the death of Roosvelt, Truman lobbied to keep the war going, saying :
"-Should China fall, we shall be next."

>>51610792
But it makes you redundant, since it was adressed already in much more elaborate way with a discussion to follow details.
Twice

>>51610740
Not an argument.

>>51610747
Fug off gommie :DDDD

>>51610751
> but its disingenuous to say that the right hasn't also been responsible for suppression of opposing views and things they deem "unsavoury".
I didn't claim that right hasn't done the same. I do stand by the statement that such right wing governments have not been in power in a long time, at least ones that go to the levels of what this anon describes>>51610525

>Thats also ignoring the religious rights scares of not too long ago when D&D taught satanism and video games were murder training tools that needed to be banned.
Did the religious right ever hold the power to actually ban those things, other than just scream at them angrily?

Rightwing is prone to moral outrages, but since Carter days and his commie hunt (which were in hindsight, actually justified, as lot of the people he labeled as commies, turned out to be fucking commies), I can't recall any right wing governments that would go as far as jail and fine you for "wrongthink".

I could be wrong of course.
Here in Finland, the wrongthink police has been historically leftist since the end of WW2.

>>51610803
>The tables are turned, however, comes when the first German atomic bomb is dropped on Manchester on the 1st April 1945
>German atomic bomb
Why people keep doing this?

Even in most optimistic reports, Germany would be unable to build their own bomb till late 50s. By the end of the war, they were on the stage Americans were in fucking '37.
Part of it comes from denying "Jewish science", which made certain things impossible to calculate.

>>51610824
>Not an argument
But you don't have arguments yourself, so what's the big deal?

>>51610824
>Did the religious right ever hold the power to actually ban those things, other than just scream at them angrily?

And the left wing of today holds equivalent power, despite /pol/'s hysterics claiming otherwise.

>>51610802
>I'm not sure you understand the difference between thinking wrong and openly denying facts involving death of few million people.

There is no difference. Banning people from holding certain opinions is thought policing.

Again, history is written by the victors, and I don't believe that labeling their propaganda as "facts" is conductive towards the search of truth.
I haven't dabbled into holocaust stuff that much, because the matter doesn't interest me as I am not a Jew or German, but I have seen enough to make me open to the idea that the popularized story that has been pushed about it might not be accurate, and I shouldn't be fucking jailed for not religiously buying into the muh 6 million shit.

>>51610824
>Did the religious right ever hold the power to actually ban those things, other than just scream at them angrily?
Check just about any religious country or with religion-backed government.
No abortion, no in-vitro (or made so expensive nobody can afford anyway) and preferably also no sex ed or basic birth control.

So yeah, they do have that kind of power

Also
>Rightwing is prone to moral outrages, but since Carter days and his commie hunt (which were in hindsight, actually justified, as lot of the people he labeled as commies, turned out to be fucking commies), I can't recall any right wing governments that would go as far as jail and fine you for "wrongthink".
Weren't you Finn, you fucking inbreed?

>>51610881
>Again, history is written by the victors

This is actually not true, particularly in modern times.

A good example is how people treat the first world war and reparations, its amazing how people buy into inter war German propaganda.

>>51610853
What even was "Jewish science", by the way? Surely it wasn't simply "any science done by Jews". Not even the Nazis could be that dumb.

>>51610866
Just because you are unable to respond to the points I made here>>51610718 doesn't reduce the merit of those points.
You on the other hand, posted a strawman ms paint picture.

>>51610870
Seeing how multiculturalism is being pushed EU wide, and many European nations jail you can take you to court for "racism" if you speak against mass immigration, or even just advocating for your people to remain majority in your ancestral homeland, I'm inclined to disagree with your statement.

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>>51610881
Oh look, Holocaust denier!
Man, it must be hard being so actively contrarian in life.

>>51610914
you're discounting the stupidity of nazi germany's racial policies. anything jewish or even remotely related was verboten

>>51610914
>Surely it wasn't simply "any science done by Jews". Not even the Nazis could be that dumb.
Well, then surprise, surprise, they were.
All Einstein theories were banned and considered wrong on the sole basis he was Jewish. This extends to pretty much anything more recent and in the same time invented by Jews.
Those people really were dense.

>>51610924
>Merit of those points
There is no merit in them aside your claim there is one. So what are you even trying to do here?
Why /pol/ sucks so bad in basic logic?

>>51610924
>or even just advocating for your people to remain majority in your ancestral homeland

Idle question, what race are you? Because I'm willing to bet that your ancestral homeland, isn't where you think it is.

If you are, for example, Finnish, then your ancestral homeland is actually more likely than not somewhere in modern Estonia, not Finland.

>>51610573
Ah, it's Facist McFinn, always a valuable contributor when a thread goes down the /pol/ toilet.

Can't you just make like your countrymen and kill yourself?

>>51610906
>Check just about any religious country or with religion-backed government.
You got a point with the abortion stuff, and I concede that. Still, those countries, to my knowledge, do not jail you if you advocate for the legalization of abortion.

>Weren't you Finn, you fucking inbreed?
Yes.
Does that exclude me from talking about other countries or something?

>>51610925
nice strawman.

>>51610972
How exactly there were no merit in those points? Just because you say so, doesn't make it true.

>>51610291

Well, maybe something like the valkyrie operation would be enough to triy negotiating peace. Anyway the soviets weren't going negotiate shit after the complete anihilation of eastern europe and i think that only the most anti-communist of the allies would negotiate peace in order to try something like operation: impossible. That could end with three superpowers, two again, no superpowers at all or just general apocalypse.

In this thread, I learned that Polish people don't like to be told that they used to be part of the USSR.

>>51610975
I'm a Finn, and our people have lived here for over a thousand years.
Sure, if you go back far enough, my ancestors were living somewhere else, but that's hardly relevant. The traditions, heritage and cultural foundations of my people were found in this land, and our ancestors have lived here for a considerable amount of time, making it fitting to call this land the ancestral homeland of Finns.

>>51610977
How about you actually try to provide arguments instead of screaming about muh /pol/ boogieman.

What nationality are you? Because I am quite sure I can come up with a way of insulting you based on your people's stereotypes, as you seem to desire to make this thread about that.

>>51611007
Valkyrie wouldn't be enough. In fact what I was mentioning was Valkyrie, the leaders of the Valkyrie plot wanted an inconclusive peace that let them keep Poland and Czechoslovakia as german soil along with some lands in the west. The big delusion people have about them is that they were reasonable; what they were is more reasonable than Hitler, but that's easy when the man you're more reasonable than was swearing that every german deserved death for losing his little dream war.

>>51610388
know what is funny in your alt-history version?
Incredible consistency with contemporary Russiaqn leftists, who proclaim that:
a) it were those liberal borgoise antante boot-lickers from the Temporary Goverment who lost the WW1
b) without reds (to unify and) industrialise Russia, it would have been deleted by nazis

>>51611007
>maybe something like the valkyrie operation would be enough to triy negotiating peace.

Not hardly. If I recall correctly the guys who were trying to pull it off where still pretty far to the right, didn't fundamentally disagree with Hitler on any point except the continuation of the war, and wanted a conditional surrender to the Western Allies only wherein they would join the Wehrmacht in fighting back against the Soviets, AND the Reich would get to keep nearly all its conquered territories, up to and including Poland (and possibly the conquered part of France, IIRC).

Now, mind, at least these people were willing to go to the negotiating table unlike Hitler, and probably would have eventually capitulated to the unconditional surrender than the Allies were demanding. But Valkyrie happens way too late to help Germany.

Honestly the best time to "save" Germany is after the reoccupation of the Saar. No later.

>>51611027
I'm just fed up of seeing your posts Finnboi, you do it all the time, and seemingly always mention that you're a Finn, like it matters in some way on an anonymous imageboard (and that Finland matters at all)

>>51610803

>1946

Germany refused to share the secret of atomic bombs with Japan.
It even refused to station atomic bombs in Japan.
Officially because they were too few and too precious to risk them being destroyed by american bombardements.
In reality, it was also and mainly because Germany didn't trust Japan at all and didn't want to let it have even a limited stockpile of nuclear weapons.
But yeah, Germany could produce only a very limited amount of nukes and very slowly.

And when the USA answered the ultimatum by bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki, a mutually agreed cease-fire was broken between them for the promise not to use atomic weapons.
This didn't stop them to stockpiling them.


China didn't care much for atomic bombs, though :
It was too vast and its population too spread out for the bombs to have any real effect.
As long as american war material kept flowing, the war against Japan would be victorious for China.

The question was only who would govern China...

In October 1946, the CPC launched a series of revolts among regiments of the KMT, together with large-scale popular uprisings in the countryside held by Japanese.

The Autumn Offensive claimed nearly 1 million lives in less than two weeks, of which mostly chinese civilians.
But it also resulted in the dead of many KMT leaders, including Chiang Kai-shek.

The communist party emerged as the largest and best organized of the chinese factions and a logical choice for the american to back.
The USA forced, under threath of stopping supply, most chinese commanders to put themselves under CPC's command.
While not perfect, it was believed by the USA that they could always easily break the CPC once Japan (and Germany ?) would be dealt with.

>>51611022
Maybe because they weren't

>>51611072
I bring up the fact that I'm a Finn when it is relevant.

Here,>>51610573
I mentioned it because likewise to the Japanese, my people were on the losing side of the war, and thus I can recognize many of the elements the anon who talked about Japanese post war stuff, like apologism towards the winners, and the smearing of their wartime stuff, in our own history.

>>51610573
> later, during the cold war, treasonous leftist academia attacked our war veterans relentlessly,
> smeared them and did their utmost to paint us Finns as the wrongdoers in the war
As a Finn, please answer this.
Have you heard about Mannerheim memorial desk debacle in St Petersburg? What is your opinion on it?

>>51611027
>but that's hardly relevant

I think it is. Your entire argument is based on some kind of inherent ownership of the land, but you only get to claim that at all by dint of having been born there. Anyone born in that land can make the same claim.

>>51611022
They weren't? Not really. They were part of the Warsaw Pact, but nominally, at least, they were a sovereign entity distinct from the Soviet Union. At least on paper.

>>51611122
It, like Finland, is never relevant

>>51611022
If you don't see a difference between being member of Eastern Block and Warsaw Pact AND being part of Soviet Union - you are retarded.
To put it into some easy to digest example - it's like saying Japan was part of German Reich, because both were members of Axis. Or proclaiming New Zealand part of United Kingdom.

>>51610986
>How exactly there were no merit in those points? Just because you say so, doesn't make it true.
This can be reversed at you - just because you claim there is any merit in your bullshit, doesn't mean there is one.

>>51610853
Because otherwise, you get an american victory in 9 out of 10 scenarios.

Safe of atomic bombs, there was just no way for Germany to beat the UK :

The UK had the advantage in ships, which meant it could dominate the sea and prevent an effective blockade by Germany.
Even the channel wasn't safe for Germany to stage a landing so it had to rely on air power to control it.

The Allies had an advantage in planes thanks to the lend-lease.
They also had better pilot training programs, which means they would always end up on top of Germany in air power.

Even if Germany could negate the Royal Navy (it couldn't) and if it could whipe the RAF out (it couldn't either), there was the issue of strategic bombing of Britain not having any real impact on the war :
Civilians just hated Germany for it but they didn't protest against the British government, asking for peace.
And most war material was being shipped to Britain from the USA.

Atomic bomb is a stretch, sure... but it's alternate history for you :
Rather than having Germany somehow triple its whole industrial capacity AND sinking the whole Royal Navy AND scoring 3:1 in air battle AND managing to build its own navy in less than a decade... we give it a boost in nuclear science.

Which is a stretch, sure, but less than the alternative.
This make a force multiplicator that allows to say : "Germany produced a few bombs and used them to force Britain out of the war".

>>51611131
Gotta admit, that I have not heard about that.
Please enlighten me.

>>51611137
>I think it is. Your entire argument is based on some kind of inherent ownership of the land,
No, it is based on the historical fact that this is where our people live and have lived for countless generations, where also most of our cultural traits and traditions were founded, and from my personal desire to retain that state of affairs, because I wish for our people to have a homeland and not to be an insignificant minority in a land we don't control ourselves.

>Anyone born in that land can make the same claim.
Sure, and any Finn can tell those non-Finns to bugger off.

I make no claims about some "inherent ownership" for there is no such thing in existence. Ownership comes only trough force, and for large portion of our history, we Finns did not own this land. We were subjugated under the rule of foreign peoples. We have only been the rulers of our own homeland and destiny for barely 100 years.
I never want my people to fall under the rule of foreigners ever fucking again. Ensuring that we have our own homeland, where we are the absolute majority, make the laws, and form the culture, is extremely important in retaining and safeguarding the freedom and survival of my people.
A Sovereign Homeland is a precious thing, that is worth more than any amount of riches in the world.

>>51611256
Well, we could discuss the merit (or lack off) of those points, if they were actually addressed, which was not done in this post>>51610740

>>51611258
>Because otherwise, you get an american victory in 9 out of 10 scenarios.
So you are basically bringing Space Nazi Magic into the setting, just because you can't think of anything better?
Son, you suck in geopolitics and you suck hard.

>>51611286
I don't care, since that's not my post. I'm just pointing the only thing giving any merit to your nonsense is your claim that it's all valid.
Nothing else.

>>51611084
Now the hard part :

How come the USA got out of the geopolitical picture ?

I have no idea for this to feel realistic.

At this point, the main changes to IRL are :
- USSR never was because Russia got out of WW1 earlier.
- Germany got the atomic bomb before the USA because they made a breakthrough