Warmachine / Hordes General - /wmhg/

First for Magnus was right!

Trollbloods Army - 75 / 75 points

(Gunnbjorn 1) Captain Gunnbjorn [+28]
- Dire Troll Blitzer [16]
- Dire Troll Bomber [19]
- Dire Troll Mauler [15]
- Troll Axer [10]
Krielstone Bearer & Stone Scribes (max) [9]
Trollkin Highwaymen (max) [15]
Trollkin Scouts [10]
Braylen Wanderheart, Trollkin Outlaw [5]
Stone Scribe Chronicler [4]

This is the list I'm going for to have my first 75pt game. Looking forward to trying this out, probably not going to be super competitive but I think I'll be able to win a few games and have some fun.

>>51586683
drop the stone to min and add the ua.

The capacity to remove stealth is very important tool for a gunline that isn't spamming AOEs or Sprays.

>>51586719
Thanks for the advice! I'll probably do that, it seems like the UA is really useful in many regards.

Interested in restarting. I played a lot of cryx during MK 1, and I played Menoth at the beginning of MK 2, I really like the alt ashlynn sculpt. please advise on proceeding.

Anyone have a link to the trollblood book? I want to see the galleries.

So just to make sure I'm understanding the interaction between the Krielstone and warlock.
Suppose I'm playing Ragnor, and I have a Mauler with 4 fury, and a Bouncer with 3.
I can reeve the 4 from the Mauler, immediately give one of the fury to the Krielstone (provided they aren't already full) and then reeve the three from the bouncer.
Is this correct?

>>51588551
No

>>51588578
Alright, I assume I need to reeve before I can start transferring?

If I want to play jackspam as list 1 and MoW spam as list 2

1. How many potatoes Am I?
2. Hamking or ezerkova or karchev? Use whom for MoW spam?

>>51588600
The warlock puts fury onto the krielstone during the warlock's activation.

>>51588608
I like irusk1, irusk2, or kozlov for mow spam

>>51588608
Go for Hamkevich. Do it. Something along these lines.

http://conflictchamber.com/#b31b_-0f8D7p7p7p7s7s0d0d7Z8t86

Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand

(Harkevich 1) Kommander Harkevich, The Iron Wolf [+28]
- Destroyer [14]
- Destroyer [14]
- Destroyer [14]
- Kodiak [13]
- Kodiak [13]
- Juggernaut [12]
- Juggernaut [12]
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [4]
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4]
Battle Mechaniks (min) [3]

>>51588644
Why use 3 destroyers when you could use viktor

>>51588692
>he thinks its for the guns

>>51588692
They shoot more and can hide behind the clouds. Also Reposition.

What do you guys think about this list?

Cygnar - Maddox Storm

Theme: Storm Division
2 / 2 Free Cards 75 / 75 Army


Major Beth Maddox - WJ: +30
- Brickhouse - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 18)
- Stormclad - PC: 18 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
- Stormclad - PC: 18

Major Katherine Laddermore - PC: 8
Stormblade Captain - PC: 0
Stormblade Captain - PC: 0

Field Mechaniks - Crew Chief & 3 Grunts: 3
Storm Lances - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20
Storm Lances - Leader & 4 Grunts: 20


THEME: Storm Division

>>51589307
Why two Captains instead of Junior/Squire?

>>51589316
>>51589307
This. Bring Junior+Squire. Replace Brickhouse with a good jack. One Stormblade Captain is almost one too many.

Hey Anons. How do the three Cephalyx Monstrosities stack up against each other?

>>51589697
Wrecker > Warden > Subduer

>>51589796
Thanks. Any reason why?

>>51590262
Probably because:

>Wrecker has 2 weapons with the highest power
>Warden has shield guard to protect your squishy caster
>Subduer is basically just for assassinating enemy solos and casters

>>51588608
Don't play mow spam until mow theme gets released.

Hark/B3/Karchev/Malakov2 for jack spam.

All the potatoes.

>>51588613
Why woukf you take Irusk2 for MoW spam? They want a speed buff and he does nothing for them.

I just noticed that for a character beast to get its bond ability, it only needs to BEGIN the game in its bond caster's battlegroup, and needs to not be under your opponent's control. So if Despoiler died and a Feralgeist jumped inside of him, even though Despoiler is basically a solo and has nothing to do with Mordikaar's battlegroup anymore, he'll still poop out Void Spirits because he BEGAN the game with Mordikaar. Top lel.

>>51587719
Cryx got hit with the nerf bat, but still has some outstanding casters (in no particular order: Scaverous, Witch Coven, Denny1, Skarre and Gaspy1 & 3). Their jacks and units are okay, but okay doesn't cut it for very competetive metas, so you will only see Satyxis Raider+UA units and mostly character jacks (the best) or otherwise merc units. Still winning tournaments though because they have some good answers to the meta.
Protectorate is in quite a good spot right now. Lots of different casters are viable and some are probably even overpowered (even though they don't seem to pull through in tournament results, at least if you look at discount games). High Reclaimer brings a lot of infantry, Amon is supposed to be the jack spammer par excellence, Severius2 does some nice things with combined arms, Thyra offers an unusually fast and stealthy approach for the Protectorate, Kreoss1 still does his pop and drop. The rest does okay. Since you've played during mk2 you'll probably want to exchange your Errants for a Unit+UA of Idrians though. Idrians just do more things right now than Errants (hardly a surprise when most special abilities went from the Errant card to the Idrian card).

>>51587798
Seconded and I'd take the Protectorate command book, too. I want to look at the new pictures

>>51590428
Gotcha. Thanks

>>51590821
>Their jacks and units are okay
Sure if you ignore that the Slayer might just be the best warjack in the game.

>>51590965
It's not the best, but certainly one of the most cost-effective.

>>51590546
>B3

A new meme?

Guys I came 4th at my LGS's Steamroller yesterday out of 11 using Skorne. Hexeris1 is a very solid caster.

Seems that this is Tom Guan B2 list and his pairing was Wurmwood :

Baldur2
- Pureblood
- Megalith
Una1
- Storm Raptor
2x Sentry Stones
Shifting Stones
2x Ogrun Bokur
Gobber Chef
Swamp Gobbers

>>51590656
No.

>>51591455
Why not? According to the wording on bonds, it hasn't been severed by the Feralgeist's activity.

>Full unit of 10 guys is £43
>Min unit of 6 guys is £19
>2 guys is £7
These prices man. These PRICES.

Hello guys. I'm fairly new to mini tabletop gaming and I'd like to invest my time and money into Warmachine/Hordes. Been watching videos on youtube and really fancy that skirmish aspect (and free rules, good developer service).
However, I do not know if the game is very popular. Is the community growing?

Thanks in advance

>>51591644
It's like in top 3 or 4 of the best selling games in USA.

>>51591644
You're asking the right question in the wrong place. If you want to know if it's worth getting into you have to know about your local scene. Go to your next LGS and ask there

>>51591524
what?
why not just buy a bunch of 6 guys, it's cheaper desu? you'll get 12

>>51591890
Sell the two extra guys for around 4squigglyLmoneys and you'r even making profit! Or turn them into the UA with greenstuff

>>51591901
extra squiggly monies

Do Warjacks still get extra focus from bonds?

>>51591911
Nope. They do get free focus from being with a Warcaster though.

what do trollbloods play like? are they the "tanky" race?

>>51591911
>>51591917
Mk3 Rule: Power Up, every warjack with a functional cortex in its warcaster’s control range (yes, it is control range now) gains a focus point at the start of the Control Phase. The warcaster can then allocate up to two additional focus points to each warjack in its battlegroup.

>>51592420
I meant as in 4 max focus instead of 3.

>>51592472
´No, only specific jacks can have more than 3 focus (off the top of my head: Deathjack and Avatar of Menoth and I guess every jack controlled by Nemo2)
Bonds also got changed, they are only on character jacks now and give a little (or big) bonus when deployed with the fitting Warcaster (Thorn can channel spells while in melee under any Haley, Hand of Judgment gets boosted ranged attack rolls under any Feora etc)

>>51590965
>Sure if you ignore that the Slayer might just be the best warjack in the game.
Right. Sure. That's why you're seeing so many Slayerspam lists dominating top tables. /sarcasm

The Slayer is fine for what it is, but what people looking in at Cryx from the outside never seem to understand is that is NEEDS to be that cheap to be even a bit compelling. Sure, it's a hard hitting heavy for 10 pts. It's also a massive focus hog and probably the most fragile heavy in the game. These things were 6 points (still very cheap) in Mk2 and they didn't get played AT ALL. There are some good reasons for that - reasons which Power Up and a points discount only go part of the way to solving.

>>51585872
I like that the picture make it looks like Magnus in the background is horrified by the miniature.

>>51589697
Wrecker are the workhorse; Durable, heavy hitting and solid threat-range.

Wardens protect casters and -if the enemy has easy stealth removal- troop leaders, agigators and Overlords. Free ramming is nice, two fists to throw with at POW 12 is too. They're nice for 10 points.

Subduers extend your threat-range to one model by 3". Never run more than one, if at all.

>>51591244
B3 is great at jack spam. Even in Mk2 he was running 3 of them which was unheard of in Khador.

B3 is a lot scarier in theme, because of double horse-taxi.

>>51591524
well its not like they're produced in Britain, and they're not going to get cheaper when you vote to turn your economy into a dumpster fire. I'd suggest moving to America, but I don't think they accept pakis anymore.

>>51594070
>when Delivery system got literal
I need butcher emerging from a russian UPS box to mulch a cygnarian sword kniggas

Bump for Mercs whining about Caine3 being good in Cygnar.

>>51594128
Ah yes I remember back in the 19th century when Britain was the most wealthy and powerful entity on the planet. All on the back of the glorious benevolent EU.

>>51597433
That was so dumb I think parts of my brain died reading it.

>>51593038
Slayers didn't get played because Meme Knights could blow anything else off the table with ease. They got buffed by power up, then got buffed by coming down in point cost by ~16.6%.

>>51597460
>Not being in the EU means your economy is a dumpster fire
Literal cuck mentality.

>>51597433
Ah yes, I remember the 19th century, the last time Britain was ever relevant on the world stage. Did you ask your nanny government permission to post on this site?

>>51597479
That's part of it. And yes, they got buffed... from "completely worthless" all the way up to "situationally useful"... which still isn't enough that other factions should be complaining about them.

>>51597479
Slayers are great. Yeah, losing a system to a few lucky POW 10 shots sucks, but when the Slayer gets into melee (which is pretty easy with a default 10" threat range) is wrecking shit.

Slayers are basically hitting like Warbeasts, with all those initials. And DEF 13 is actually rock solid, especially if you can put it into a cloud or something.

>>51597856
>Yeah, losing a system to a few lucky POW 10 shots sucks
Like nigger it's 10 points just send in another.

>>51597856
Sure. I mean, none of this is news. There's plenty to like about the Slayer, and I think at 10 points it's now in a place where it can be considered a legitimate option, without being overpowered... which should be considered the bullseye, as far as unit design goes.

But for those concerned they're TOO cheap, just look around at local tables, or at reports online - nobody is spamming them, outside of a few cutesy lists, which should tell you everything you need to know.

Exactly what I was trying to get at; The Slayer is just in the right spot imo.

I also think that the Juggernaut is balanced, but the Kodiak is a little too efficient for 13 points.

>>51597958
I think apart from being balanced itself, Cryx has few tools to really make him shine. Sure, there's Gaspy3 as a dedicated jack caster, but I can't really think of another caster who would improve his performance by leaps and bounds.

As a general question: What are your thoughts on the crab jack chassis jacks? They get played even less
Plus a lot of people are probably still stuck in the "Cryx is the infantry faction" mindset

>>51598120
Coven is really good at delivering Jacks; Run your jack into position with Stealth and then Launch it away with Infernal Machine.

Alternatively, put them into clouds and watch your opponents dedicate boosts against a 10 point model with DEF 15.

>>51598004
Yeah, for all of the rage against the Juggernaut, it seems fine to me.

I do run Crusader spam, though, and the Juggernaut looks about what I'd expect a 20% cost increase over a Crusader to look like.

The Marauder, though, is broken.

ConflictAnon, I have a bug to report. Sons of the Tempest has no warjacks to choose. It should have all non-char jacks with ranged attacks, Thunderhead, and then also the bonded char jacks specific to the caster you've chosen.

>>51599000
Dropping the kids off at gymnastics right now, I'll fix it tonight, though.

https://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/ekjtk9hf

Las Vegas Open results. There's no lists. Apparently the only matches Circle lost were mirrors. Before you talk about how good Skorne is, the top Skorne players both managed to avoid playing against Circle. Also this is just the Swiss, I believe there was some kind of playoffs as Trevor Cristensen's Twitter has a photo of the 3rd place trophy.

>>51600124
For anyone interested, Cristensen's 3 Skorne casters were Xerxis1, Zaadesh2, and Rasheth.

>>51600124
The fuck is a sos

>>51600044
You're too good for this world, ConflictAnon

>>51600193
strength of schedule.

>>51600124

Skorne had a good time at CaptainCon, too.

>>51600326
But none of this matters when the metagame is as warped as it is right now. As a Skorne player myself I consider Skorne to be decently equipped at beating Una2 since Zaadesh2's smoke clouds basically make him DEF17 so even with flank the birds will miss, not to mention the Agonizer 1) makes them weaker and 2) has Repulse as an animus. So I'm not surprised Skorne would do above average right now. Though all results are meaningless in the face of Una2.

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>>51601236
>Whore Bitch Deneghra

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>>51600169
>>51600124

LVO: IG finals, Circle vs Circle. Top 4 of masters 3/4 Circle

Nice game you have there

>>51601514
>"wehh wehh, Hordes is too weak"

>>51601597
Right now the game reminds me an awful lot of Magic about a year ago during what came to be known as Eldrazi WInter. Basically, Wizards released some new cards, and snapped a format called Modern in half with a brand new deck that nothing could even come close to beating anything close to consistently. This deck was like 70% of the metagame. Some other decks bent and warped to try and compete, but nothing was particularly effective. What happened? They just banned one of the deck's key cards, and it came down to safe levels.

At this point PP can't retain face if they don't do anything about what is a blatant and egregious design mistake.

>>51600194
Should be fixed now; thanks for the report.

>>51601711
Did your kids have fun at gymnastics? :3c

>>51601669
Yeah, this is a test for the new design.

Una2 is broken.

They have the choice of letting the competitive game languish until their chosen time of errata release, or actually do something about it.

>>51601724
Yeah, the two in the class are a bit young to do much other than "somewhat guiding bouncing on trampolines", but they enjoy it.

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>>51601800
I will, though, brag on my eldest; this is a sketch of his from today.

I have the urge to build an indie metroidvania-style game in this art style. But very little time in the short term; maybe over the summer.

>>51601858
What the hell do you even do? It seems like you have all the time in the world, but there's no way that's true

>>51602768
Man, what was going through Torruk's head when he said
"I want my warjacks to be chicken shaped."

>>51602839
Day job is computer science research; I work in the overlap between software engineering and artificial intelligence, and my core area of investigation is trying to figure out how to train a computer to be able to program itself (or, at least, be able to try to fix buggy code itself). I'm working on my PhD after working as an engineer for 20 years. I also work as a consultant (which pays most of the bills while I'm finishing grad school, since I have a family and a grad student stipend doesn't quite cut it).

So, usually I have very little free time, although due to working primarily in academia, summers are often pretty free (and you might notice that most of the initial development effort on Conflict Chamber was in... late summer, and I've not been able to get many of my longer term goals running since then -- damnit, it's going to have a map-based option for scheduling games at some point...).

At the moment I'm waiting for a long batch of processes (we've got a high-throughput cluster with close to a million processing nodes we use for research) to finish so I can analyze some data, so I'm hanging out here until it gets done.

I haven't had time to put a brush to a model in two months now :/

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>>51602983
He wanted them created in the image of the most badass creature in all of creation.

What's the chance of Convergence getting models in their Command book

>>51598858
>The Marauder, though, is broken

Never thought I'd live to see the day some one make that claim.

>>51603998
After crunching the numbers shortly after Mk3 dropped, I came to the conclusion that Marauders were only *slightly* behind Mad Dogs in raw spamming power. I literally told folks around here that if you didn't expect to run into colossals, I'd take Marauders over Mad Dogs in most cases.

The errata deleted Mad Dogs from the game and buffed Marauders so they murder colossals now.

>>51597958
> I think at 10 points it's now in a place where it can be considered a legitimate option

Hordes players wish they even had a 10 point heavy as good as a Slayer and Warmachine players cry how slightly more brittle their insanely point efficient beatstick is.

>>51604691
>10 pt heavy
tfw trolls

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Do warbeasts still need to be pricey considering power up being a thing?

>>51605080
Honestly, I'm not even sure there are 10 pt heavies in Hordes at all. Cheapest I can think of is the Gnarlhorn and that's really more of a middleweight than a heavy.

>>51605127
Yeah, the only 10 point heavy in hordes is skorne's archidon and the only nod to it actually being a heavy is base size

>>51605233

The Archadon gives me hope that Hordes might get some point reductions on beasts eventually.

As good as the Archadon seems on paper, I don't know that he isn't in the right place. They still die to most things as long as they get hit but they are still a good threat for their points.

I am hoping that we get a baseline 1 or 2 point reduction for a lot of Hordes more expensive heavies. Skorne actually might be on good footing with a lot of their beasts but Legion and Circle heavies, while still really good, seem super expensive compared to Warjacks.

On the same note, a lot of Warmachines cheap beater jacks are probably too good for how cheap they are.

>>51605725
Juggernaut and castigator immediately jump to mind

Thing is, they seem to cost us like it because of animi, but honestly, a lot of animi just aren't useful or another beast has the animi and is far more efficient

>>51605860

Yeah, for sure.

Don't get me wrong, I think animi are good but I really don't think a Carnivian should cost 19 points or a Scythean should cost 18.

I don't actually think a Pureblood Warpwolf should cost 17. One or both of the Gnarlhornor/Shadowhorn Satyrs should probably cost 10 or 11 points. As good as they are, a Warpwolf Stalker could probably be 18 points and still be fair.

On the same note, as much as I love them, Menoth Crusaders are probably too good to be 10 points each.

Also, for that matter, I really think a lot of the Troll elemental lights should cost less.

>>51605080
Just take the Axer. Any cheap heavy option you get will just be disappointing

>>51601669
Memdern only broke because tgey where blind to the white light that is dredge pride world wide.

>>51605970

I mean, the Mauler isn't "cheap" but as heavies go, he is probably still worth at least his points.

>>51605964
9 points seems fair for an elemental troll all things considered, their animi generally speaking are actually valuable, the trolls that should be cheaper are axers and impalers. Rush and snipe are good animi, but it's still a 10 and 11 point light respectively. the impaler can't even argue that it's a useful shooting unit since you have to use your fury on crit-fishing

actually, I lie, snipe isn't even a good animi anymore since it's self targeting

>>51606033

I actually am fine with the Self Snipe animus. I do however think that the Impaler, Nephalim Bolt Thrower and Cyclops Raider should all become RoF 2 (or be able to buy a second attack). The Raider could be a good utility light gun beast if he could put out a little more fire for his cost.

I actually wish the Elemental Trolls got back their support utility though. Trolls are all about stacking buffs. I would be fine if the Pyre Troll and Storm Troll animi could still be used on infantry. Also, the Slag Troll needs something. Maybe a second shot and/or a better animus. Maybe something that gives himself and only himself +2 Arm (Make it "self" and Warbeast specific so it doesn't make Troll casters unkillable).

>>51606115
second shot with assault would be brutal antiwarjack rape though

if you wanted them more in line, the elemental trolls could work to caster buffs. Instead of the fairly terrible animus on the winter troll, you could give it something like a cloud concealment animus at probably 2 fury, and +1 rat for 9 pts and you'd see it
also reload 1 on impalers at 10 points would make them still fury hungry but not horrible
I'd even consider dropping the price of the slag troll by 1, and giving his animus +2 damage on melee rolls since that's apparently good enough for the pyre

>>51606179

Aye. All good ideas.

Winter Troll simply having a small concealment bubble would be kind of cool and let him act slightly like a shitty Krea. Rat 5 alone would make him sweet.

>>51606179
You don't get your other ROF shots after an assault, unless you also have dual attack, or alternatively gunfighter.

>>51606301
oh, cool, didn't know that since I don't think much actually has more than one shot and assault

>>51606269
Yeah, I kind of like the idea of a 2fury 3" cloud effect. It'd give you another option besides the krielstone for getting troops up the board, it might actually be good enough that I'd consider 10 points, especially with rat5

>>51606339
it comes up sometimes in Cygnar. Finn has d3 shots and assault, and Haley1 can give extra rof with her feat.

>>51606405
huh, the more you know. Actually, I realised that works in legion with one of the lylyths, one of them gives more shots to Ogrun warspears

>>51605725
Nigger you have no idea how good Loki is. He's about to go in almost every Circle list and be an absolute terror.

>>51606033
Skorne pays 15 points for Rush and can't afford to lose it so needs to treat the Gladiator like a princess. Skorne heavies start at 15 points and are so easy to kill and slow it's silly.

>>51606988
Gladiator is directly equivalent to a mauler, you pay kreia tax, trolls pay krielstone tax, trolls also have a 15 point minimum on heavies, it's really not so different
Sometimes I think your real issue is that skorne lights for the most part seem really shitty for what you actually want to achieve with them. savages seem like they need an extra p+s, drakes explode if looked at wrong, razor worms give you spiny growth and that's about it, and the sentry needs one more p+s on it's spear. the only one I look at and think yeah, that's pretty good is the cyclops shaman
admittedly, all this is as an outsider to the faction

>>51607074
I sort of like the Raider + Shaman combo as an alternative to a Cannoneer as they're the same points and a Shaman with a 14" ghost shot is a terror. The Sentry is an excellent beast though as our best casters can fix its problem of low damage output. Nothing but Rasheth and Zaadesh2 can fix the problem of low MAT though. It's probably why Zaadesh2 is in EVERY list pair now.

>>51607074
>skorne lights for the most part seem really shitty for what you actually want to achieve with them
You think?

>Cyclops Savage
Melee beatstick with 1 initial, PS13, and MAT6. Its only ability is Future Sight, which means burning through your entire fury just to land a hit and deal less damage than Karn can on a single swing. If it was 6 points I still wouldn't bring them
>Cyclops Brute
As tanky as a heavy, but with less boxes and zero ability to actually kill anything. It's MAT fucking 5 seriously cyclops are meant to be able to see into the future
>Cyclops Raider
Grossly overpriced single shot gun
>Cyclops Shaman
Grossly overpriced single shot gun
>Basilisk Krea
You don't bring infantry that can't cross the table on their own anyway, and has zero use against Warmachine after your infantry gets there
>Basilisk Drake
Put aside the Sentry Stone this isn't even a model
>Razor Worm
Worse beatstick than the Savage, and that's saying something

Maybe in a world where Skorne can handle lots of up front beasts we'll be able to just bring lights to clear infantry or chase solos or something, but when your most competitive casters are fury 5 and 6, it's just not happening.

>>51607890
c'mon man, the rest I'll grant you but your in the same boat as all of hordes with the shaman and krea, the only problem is your paying trollblood prices with the same missing numbers trollbloods have without the trollblood supports to unfuck them, you get what, paingivers with enrage and zaadesh?

>marauder op
How. Explain

>>51608038
Troll support provides +4STR and +2ARM. Skorne support provides +2STR and +2ARM (presuming you brought the correct bubble). A Mauler hits as hard as Tiberion, a 22 point character titan.

>>51608724
Troll support is better yes, they are the buff guys, that's like complaining about menoth support, but trolls don't get access to toys like the agonizer, or spells like parasite.
but your right that your heavies seem slightly overcosted, a bronzeback should be like, 2 pts cheaper

>>51608791
I'm really happy with almost all of our beasts right now. Really wish we had some Mat7 for less than 18p though. Aside from that we have quite the versatile stable and at least our heavies all have a place. The light need a bit of work still but even those are mostly fine.

>>51608791
I'm hoping that Praetorian Swordsmen can fix a lot of Skorne's problem. Small based weaponmasters are such a big deal honestly.

>>51605104
That's what healing and free spells do to you.

>>51608459
Not OP but undercosted.
I feel like the Marauder would be great at 11 pts.
Juggernaut is fine at 12 and the Kodiak probably needs to go to 14.
Also Grolar, Spriggan, Torch, Ivan and maybe Demolisher need to go down at least 1 point.Maybe 2 for the Spriggan and Ivan.
Berserker and Mad dog can easily be one point cheaper.

>>51609140
Not this shit again.

Legion players (other can post too):
Your opinion on Azrael and Kallus2?

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>>51608459
It's a little too cheap for 10 points, considering that it's abilities and statline actually do work.

On the flipside, for 9 points, Mad Dogs and Berserkers are absolute trash. The former needs to go up and the latter down by one.

>>51609222
Azrael is interesting but seems overcosted, Kallus 2 on the other hand turns you into menoth so you can set all of the shit on fire

>>51609140
>healing being relevant when the entire game is just alpha strike rocket tag

>>51609140
Meanwhile in Khador, Mechanics are the single cheapest bodies in the game.

ALl this people still bitching about Skorne while at LVO Skorne did very well.

That means that Skorne player can just sop bitching and learn to play the game.

>>51609140
>healing
Is that really that important though, considering most alpha strikes/charges just end up murdering beasts before they get the chance to heal?

>>51609414
Yeah I'm currently doing just that and boy am I having a blast. This isn't the faction I got into two years ago, this is better. Not perfect, but really good.

Currently trying out Zaadesh2 and will hopefully get to playing some Morghoul2 in the near future. I'm just worried about the Circle matchup, but then again who isn't?

>>51609450
Just wait for PP to fix Una.

>>51609460
Yeah until then I'm just counting on my good luck and the availability status of Scarsfells to dodge her.

>>51609467
I play Circle and I just want PP to fix her. She is bad in general for the faction and for the game.

IMO jacks are priced about where they should be. Warmachine players finally have an incentive to take jacks. And while there are some corner stone cases with a certain spam list, I think this is the perfect balance between Warjack and Infantry pricing.
HOWEVER beasts are much too over costed. Considering Warlocks need beasts, it's vital they're able to have more than what they currently can run.

>>51609414
We have transitioned from bitching about Skorne to bitching about Hordes in general, specifically how broken Una2 is and how overcosted and underperforming a huge portion of beasts are, especially compared to jacks.

Get with the times, old man!

>>51609415
The difference is that, if you can't finish the beast you dedicated the kill to, it's just going to be healed for 1-2 points and hit something at max efficiency. Now you have to deal with it by assigning another source of damage, possibly on the turn after even.

If you fuck up killing a Warjack, but blew everything except for the movement out, the model might as well just be dead. You can effectively ignore it for the rest of the game, unless it threatens to free-strike squishy models.

>>51609414
>All this people still bitching about Skorne while at LVO Skorne did very well.

If you did a minute of research you'd know that:

1) Circle didn't lose a single non-mirror in the whole tournament
2) The top 2 Skorne players at the tournament didn't have to face Circle in the 4 rounds of Swiss
3) In the playoffs, one was knocked out in a Skorne mirror, the other was knocked out by Circle
4) Skorne is actually relatively well equipped to deal with Una2 compared to the rest of the game which lets Skorne do better than average
5) Results are irrelevant in a heavily warped metagame

Nothing at the LVO meant anything besides showing PP how broken Una2 truly is. Everything else was too heavily influenced by how broken Una2 is. The best way to top 8 in that event was to beat the odds (Circle was 25% of the field) and avoid Circle, which both of them did. Infact it's luckier than it first appears since as the rounds progressed the chance of being matched against Circle actually got higher.

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>Skorne did well, but it doesn't count because they didn't play Circle.

>>51609775
So you are saying that Skorne is bad because can defeat all the faction except Circle's Una2 that we all know to be broken ?

>>51609807
Your chances of doing well increased drastically if you could avoid Circle. And do bear in mind that the Skorne player who did the best was the best Skorne player in the world. But I'm sure every Skorne player should just play nonstop for 5 years to be able to compete with chucklefucks playing other factions.

If both Skorne players did well against a multitude of factions without taking the broken Una2 out of the equation; Doesn't that mean that Skorne is good?

How is Una2 being broken detracting from Skorne? What? >>51609807 pic related.

>>51609841
Yeah, but if you dodge Circle you don't get an autowin, you are still facing another faction.

That means that Skorne can do well against other faction and has problem against Una2 that it's a problem for all the faction atm.

At the end this is the first really important tournament of 2017 and having Skorne from bottom faction already doing good result is nice. Considering that last WTC all Skorne player really sucked and they were some of the best player.

>>51609222
I think he is good with lilyth2. And what about kallus2?

>>51609765
The chances of most jacks killing an equal-costed beast on the alpha are still a lot higher than the other way around.

Plus the fact that there's an efficient, mid-high P+S beatstick heavy jack in the range of 10-12 points for every faction the only exception being Ret, because the Sphinx sits at 13 points, sometimes even multiple, whereas Hordes factions either don't have heavies in that point range at all, or if they do, they're either more pillow-fisted or significantly more brittle than jacks.

This basically means that jacks can trade very efficiently if they choose to just spam their cheapest high-damage option - and surprise, that's what jackspam lists do - whereas Hordes simply can't do that, and stand to lose a lot more with every beast they commit.

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>>51609871
The real question is why was Skorne so universally panned before the errata, when the errata affected very little? From what I can tell on Trevor Christensen's Twitter, none of the models he used got any real drastic changes. His 3 casters at the LVO were Xerxis1 (got one new spell), Rasheth (can now arc node multiple times instead of once, and Zaadesh2 who got no changes. In terms of army everything was the same old shit. His Ferox came down by one, he had free charges, but absolutely nothing about the errata would make a faction go from absolute dogshit to strong.

There was a big tournament in Poland a month or so ago where Skorne didn't even place in the top half despite it being post-errata. Does that tournament mean that Skorne is bad? Does this tournament mean that Skorne is good?

How about we stop trying to draw conclusions from a mess of variables like a bunch of pseudo-political dipshits on Reddit and talk about something real.

My Mammoth is slowly coming along.

>>51600169
Wait, it was 3 list format? And people wonder why Circle is busted?

>>51609927
You know, sometimes a lot of small changes can add up to a lot.

That's what happened to Skorne.

>>51609927
At WTC skorne had 45% winning rate and was the faction with the lowest win rate oerall.

This means that even if they were the bottom faction they still had something good in it. For this reason Skorne didn't need drastic change, but a lot o little touch here and there.


Then you have to consider that Skorne didn't really had some anti shooting teck while now with the old Krea back +2 ARM play a lot better with them than just a +2 DEF.

Free charge is not someting "little" it's gives you a free extra attack and that means the difference between killing something or let it live.

A lot of small change = Few big changes.

>>51609961
Unfortunately you can't field the entire faction at the same time so you'll have 4-5 changed models on the field tops in a given game. One of which WILL be the Gladiator who went up by one point. Even in my own memetastic shitlists there's only 6 models tops that got changed, and 2 of those models (Gladiator, Reptile Hound) actually went up in points.

>>51610035
>Skorne didn't really had some anti shooting teck while now with the old Krea back +2 ARM play a lot better with them than just a +2 DEF
Don't pretend Skorne was amazing in Mk2 when we brought 20 points of support for a 30 point army and generally sat at the bottom of the pile with Minions.
>Free charge is not someting "little" it's gives you a free extra attack and that means the difference between killing something or let it live.
I consider free charges one of the 2 big changes to Skorne in the errata, the other being Praetorian Swordsmen. But even then this doesn't solve the problem of always trading down with Warmachine factions.
>A lot of small change = Few big changes.
See above.

QUICK.

Give me your MK3 factions tier list!

>>51610077
>Don't pretend Skorne was amazing in Mk2 when we brought 20 points of support for a 30 point army and generally sat at the bottom of the pile with Minions.

Yep, but we are talking about MK3 here. Even in Circle I have to bring in every list at least 17 point of support between 2x Sentry Stones and a Gorax. More if I need a shifting stones for fury managment.

A lot of Horde faction are in the same boat as Skorne with Supports, Troll for example having to bring the Rage heavy and the Stones and often the Axer for Rush too.

>But even then this doesn't solve the problem of always trading down with Warmachine factions.

That problem of all Horde not only Skorne. ATM Una is the only one that can do this thanks to the stupid damage output of Scarsfell.

>>51610114

Circle >>>>>>>>> Cygnar, Menoth > Khador > Convergence, Legion, Minions, Mercs > Trolls >>>>>>>>>> Cryx (just remember, whenever they win something, it was just luck or bad competition. Cryx is bad, I swear)

>>51608791
Are you mad? Trollblood beasts have on average one less pow and one less arm for comparable prices, the stone costs 12 points, needs to hang uncomfortably close and requires all your fury turn one and then one fury each turn and you cant stack much on top of rage, while you can put enrage, rush and a caster buff on the gladiator and have it kill two heavies.

>>51605964
>>51607890
>And everybody else talking about warbeast costs
Important to remember that it is VERY tough to accurately judge the value of a model from the outside of a faction looking in. Circle heavies might look expensive, but most Circle players will tell you that they're pretty appropriately costed, in general. That's because Circle excels at creating the sorts of situations where a warpwolf takes out three other heavies over the course of a game, or where a "medium" warbeast like one of the satyrs punch way out of its weight class.

Likewise, comparing beasts and jacks is still apples and oranges. Adding power up in Mk3 just made the apple and orange a little closer to the same weight. Focus and Fury are still vastly different systems. The healing ability and the animi are part of the added value, but it goes deeper than that - the economies of the two systems are fundamentally different and always will be. You can't simply port, say, a Crusader to Hordes unaltered, because it would then be able to make 4 mace attacks with NO outside assistance... imagine a spam of that.

The yardstick you really want to be using is how valuable a model is within its own faction. What role does it fill? How important is that role? How does it stack up against other models that do something similar? The Mauler or the Gladiator, for instance, we can tell are priced pretty well. They are compelling, almost-but-not-quite compulsory, but also not so cheap that spamming them is very appealing. By the same token, it's easy to see the Impaler is a bit overpriced, just by player's reactions - "just take a bomber". Its role is filled better by another piece, and the value added is far greater than the difference in cost.

>>51610185
>2x Sentry Stones and a Gorax
You're still bringing a Gorax? Man, I don't think I've even had that thing on the table in Mk3.

>>51610311
Gorax, Wild Argus, whatever, it's still just 7 points of animus on a stick.

>>51609840
I don't think anyone is really saying the first part and everyone acknowledges the second.

>>51606946

He is one of the ones that is probably costed appropriately though. I am talking more about the high end warbeasts that cost more than half of Warmachines character jacks and the "cheap" warbeasts that don't have the dmg output or rules to justify their cost vs stuff like Juggernauts that are ridiculously cheap for their blunt effectiveness.

>>51610114
>Meta-defining
Circle, Cygnar, Protectorate

>Can swim with the stream
Khador, Ret, Mercs, CoC, Legion, Minions, Skorne

>Have issues (not that the others don't)
Trollbloods, Cryx

>>51610185
>Sentry Stones
>support
Are you high?

>>51609910
But even the pen ultimate spam list Amon only placed 5th at the LVO.

>>51610433
>Sentry Stones
>support
>Are you high?

No.

Yeah they can kill some single wound model, but how much infantry there is on the table this times that doesn't reach stupid value or ARM ?

Mannikins are RAT 4 POW 10 and at max they have 2 boost. Post-errata you hardly will get a backstrike bonus without having to sacrifice the Stones turn after.

They are good, but if I could drop Sentry stone cost to 3 to buy them without mannikins I will do it without thinking twice.

Every time I read on the forum how mannikins slaughter infantry I just laugh to how bad players are.

>>51610561
I have officially entered the mad realm where everyone is mad. There is no other explanation for your post. Or you just haven't seen a competent circle player yet.

>>51610433
LVO Iron Gauntlet

Top Tier: Circle 3 top 10, Cygnar 2 Top 10, Skorne 2
Can Place: Menoth, CoC
Can be done well: Khador, Cryx, Trollbloods
Lucky: Legion, Minions
Didn't do well at all: Ret

>>51609581

I actually think there's a lot of Solos and Support pieces that could afford to drop a point.

Considering that now you HAVE to make up more of your force in jacks/beasts even if you might not want to, there are a ton of support and combat solos that seem too expensive or can't fit into lists effectively.

Not all solos mind you but there's a ton of 4 point support solos and low end combat solos that probably should go down to 3 points (and in a few cases, maybe 2 points).

>>51610623
Vassal of Menoth should be 2.

>>51610561
>sentry stones "can kill some single wound model"
I'll take Understatements for 500, Alex

>>51610577
I have seen a lot of tournament video on youtube and for what I have seen plus my personal experience, yeah if your opponent just bring a 10 man unit 2xSentry are good, but depend on the infantry and if numbers go high mannikins don't really do a lot.

I can tell you that mannikins are great for spot removal, but when I hear that they kil ltons of infantry is just for having a bad opponent.

I have done a lot of games where the enemy just shooted one single maikin every turn just to give me a nice reposition and completely ignoring the stones.

>>51610623
Just compare a 4 point Khador Manhunter with a 5 Point of Kayazy Eliminators.

It's actually laughable to even have them in the game at this point.

>>51610623
I'm not sure if solos are underpriced, or if the maturity of the game now means you just have more options than you know what to do with. I know the feeling you describe very well - once I add the jacks and units I "need" to most lists, there's very little room for support pieces. But at the same time, the ones I do bring seem like they make back their points. Which solos specifically did you have in mind?

>>51610692
Sentries also mean that any enemy models that can die to boosted 10's (which is a lot) cannot move up the field. You probably need to face Circle yourself to see the pressure they put up without risking themselves.

>>51610698
I'm pulling for them to give Manhunters ambush, personally. They're not bad at 4 points, really, it's just that they're a hard-hitting melee model in a faction that's got those in spades. So they don't really have a role... there's not a situation where you say "you know what I really need for this? Manhunters." Getting cut to 3 points wouldn't really change that. All the solos that actually get taken have a specific role that they fill in the list, and that's what manhunters need.

>>51610716
Yeah, but it's not that every attack that the manikins does it's boosted. At max, if I roll 3 for fury every turn I have 2 boost at RAT 4.

It's simple enough to understand that they are strong against single model, but they suck against a lot of them.

I know the presure I play often against Cygnar and between Hunter, GMage solos and Charger I know what means to be against model that autokill some of your models.

But that doesn't mean that if you play 20 infantry model and I have 6 manikins I can slaughter them all.

Especially considering buff and Cavalry.

>>51610652

Yeah, now that Ancillary Attack is gone and Enliven has become way more of a cornercase ability, Vassal is way to expensive for basically just being a Focus battery.

Similarly the Reclaimer has a bunch of really Meh, corner case support abilities that require him to pay souls. If he was cheaper, I could maybe see him filling out the extra 2 points in some lists even if he doesn't do a ton.

Also, for what it's worth, Paladins are way less effective than they used to be. But they would probably be interesting in a 3 point slot.

This goes across a lot of factions though. Skorne Willbreakers are okay but they feel like they should be cost 3 because it's hard to even find room for infantry support in any army anymore. Even the Extoller Soulward is a pit hard to put into lists and he is only 3 points.

It's just real hard to justify the cost of a lot of support, especially infantry support, when you are required to take so much of your force in jacks and beasts, even when you don't necessarily want to.

>>51609179
>Not OP but undercosted.

When spam casters are a thing, undercosted *is* OP.

>>51610706
See:
>>51610855

Support solos wise, I think there's a lot of Infantry support solos (Or even the Tyrant Commander type small units) that are just hard to fit anywhere because Jack/Beast army ratio has changed so much.

It would have to be done on an individual basis but stuff like Willbreaker or TyCom in Skorne could afford to loose a point. It might let them fill out more odd slots in army lists where you actually want to run and support infantry. I would say the Venetor Dakar too but his Weaponmaster gun is actually pretty nice by itself so he might be a bit too good for 3 points.

Similarly, in Khador, you have stuff like Iron Fang Kovniks, Manhunters and Yuri the Axe who are just hard to justify for their cost.

>>51609222
They are both pretty good. Azrael gives us another high POW ranged beast and Kallus2 is another good warlock. It does suck that PP gave Azrael to Kryssa even though he was clearly meant for Kallus but hey gotta sell more starter boxes.

>>51610114
Broken:
Circle
PoM (Amon)

Top:
Cygnar
Khador
PoM

Balanced:
Cryx
Mercs
Minions
Trolls
Convergence
Skorne

Weak:
Maybe Legion. I don't see them winning much.

>>51610706
Solos are priced so that you only get them in your list if you take a theme list. It seems the 75 point mark is literally 10-15 points short of the ideal list so themes become worth taking to get your solos.

>>51611594
>PoM (Amon)
Interesting how most players don't even know about HR.

I can see why people are leaving this game. The last 4/5 games I've played I've not had any fun at all. The rules are incredibly dry, the models suck and everyone I play with are always "practicing" for the next big tournament it's SUPER SERIOUS all the time.

The theme forces are taking too long to arrive and the errata didn't fix anything so it'll be nearly a year of Mk3 before shitty units get another chance to be fixed and new models are released slow as fuck, spoiled too early and don't change anything because they aren't as good as the already good stuff.

PP just killed any enthusiasm I have for the game by letting it stagnate within the first 6 months of Mk3 being released, which is fairly impressive.

>>51611651
Then take a break. It's what I did when it became clear beyond a doubt that my faction sucked. And now I'm having more fun than ever.

>>51610855
>>51611025
Yeah, I agree that a lot of solos aren't that compelling, I just don't think it's because they're bad - it's because points are tight, and you have to cut something. You want solos to be priced at a point where they're a good option, but not an auto-include. There's a lot of solos I rarely find room for, but I think are still priced appropriately, is what I'm saying. Mercs is absolutely packed with these sorts of models. Obviously not all... support solos are probably a little overpriced on average. (pure support, that is; combat/support hybrids like GMCA's or Eirysses seem to be in about the right place)

>>51611651
>>51611691
Yep, sounds like WMH burnout. Happens to everybody occasionally. Personally, I usually break completely from the hobby and go try a new console game for a while. But there's no shortage of great tabletop games out there right now if you just need a different flavor.

For my money, the best palette cleanser in-hobby is to go for something completely on the other end of the spectrum. Grab a buddy and go play some Dystopian Wars, Dropzone Commander, Epic, Hail Caesar, etc... grand scale games have a very different design philosophy (and minis) to skirmish scale games like WMH.

Last time I did this I dropped maybe $60 at microworldgames.com for 6mm infantry, mocked up some vehicles and buildings out of cardstock, and dropped in a few 30mm figs to proxy as monsters and mecha... that plus a downloaded PDF Epic rulebook kept us occupied for months.

>>51610114
Tunapocalypse tier: Circle

Strong tier: Cygnar, Khador, Protectorate, Retribution, Skorne, Convergence, Minions

Fine tier: Mercenaries, Legion

Maybe not fine tier: Trollbloods, Cryx

>>51611621
This. Somehow in every thread at least someone is losing their shit over how borked Amon is supposed to be, but then you look at tournament results and HR still plays a larger role than him for most PoM lists

>>51611621
>>51612944

So what does a good HR list look like, anyway?

>>51612974
Cleansers, KE and a few jacks (usually the Arcane Vortex guy). The rest is up in the air.

>>51612974
It's kinda flexible. To get the most out of his amazing feat and hand of fate you want Exemplar Knights, Vengers and maybe Flameguard Cleansers (for weird 10" spray angles). Use the warjack points for typical defensive lights like the Vigilant or Devout and then a nice heavy and you're pretty much set.
You can also go to discount games or check other sites for tournaments (the Ontario Team Championship also has lists and a few days ago there were results from a major polish tournament with lists)

>>51613015
>>51613023

Wouldn't he like the Eye of Truth as well?

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>when you need to make yourself look balanced so you win for other factions
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/1347

>>51613173
EoT is quite costly and he needs those points for his weaponmasters. Since they're weaponmasters (and maybe have hand of fate), they also hit like trucks, so the blessed aura doesn't make much of a difference. EoT protection itself with vision also doesn't help him survive when there's an assassination thread - you'd rather have a devout/vigilant and/or the Scourge of Heresy (to stop a spell)

EoT is nice, but it's also new, so people will hype it. It's a fine jack for its cost, but it's no auto include

>>51612595
One of my favorite things about Mk3? Minions getting ranked anywhere but last. And without Posse! Who woulda thunk?

>>51613173
EoT is just plain good and I don't think he's out of place with any caster. He's not necessary but I'd say viable.

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Getting ready for tomorrow. Thoughts?

>>51610281
Here's a (You) for balanced perspective. Pagani apparently mentioned in a recent podcast that the in faction relative cost is what they look at, which honestly to me seems the wisest choice. Designing around other faction costs feels like a quick way to homogenous models - I don't like the idea of saying "oh, the rhinodon is almost exactly the crusader"

>>51615150
Everything seems good, you might have a slight problem with Heavy Spam but other then that everything seems good.

Will Trollbloods get a third theme force like everybody else? It seems that they got fucked over because their non-book theme repeated in the book.

>>51615150
I would like a second feral in there, if you lose him your damage output shrinks massively.

>>51615643
Which faction has three themes except Cygnar right now?

>>51615671
Whoops meant to reply to >>51615626

>>51615671
Circle and Mercs, but Cygnars third tier list "Sons of the Tempest" is just laughably bad, big mean boogeyman isn't unfairly advantaged by it.

Have we gotten the second and third Khador lists?

I want mow spam and kossite spam :^)

Sorry but Skorne is still shit. It's a vanilla melee beatstick faction that's so easy to play around it hurts.

>>51597363
Mercs haven't gotten a release in two gaddam years, give us a break.

I'm sort of interested in Caine3 plus Galleon but I imagine its more cute than good. And when the big guy rolls two shots of feat turn I'm going to want to kill myself.

>>51616729
>Gibbs, Thorn Gunmages, Colby, Caine3, Plastic Steelheads
>No releases here, sir no sir.

>>51616950
Idrians are effectively new releases for Mercs, too, and they're damn good.

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>>51610620
>MkIII drops
>"guys Ret is fucking broken and top tier"
>fast forward to 2017
>Ret apparently can't win shit and gets zero discussion time

What happened

>(Naaresh 1) Master Ascetic Naaresh [+32]
- Agonizer [6]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Titan Sentry [15]
Cataphract Incindiarii (max) [17]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13]
- Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard [4]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]

>(Rasheth 1) Dominar Rasheth [+28]
- Agonizer [6]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Cyclops Shaman [8]
- Mammoth [38]
- Aptimus Marketh [5]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Void Spirit [4]

>(Makeda 1) Archdomina Makeda [+29]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Titan Sentry [15]
- Molik Karn [19]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13]
- Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Feralgeist [2]

M E M E L I S T S

>>51617213
They can't attrition as well, and lose to boxspam and 2una.

>>51617213
Jay Larsen took Ret to LVO. Shame he couldn't avoid the Circle matchup.

So in this edition mulg lost one fury, protective fit, traded relentless for relentless charge (which I think is an upgrade), and traded bond that allowed him to make an extra attack at the end of activation for retaliatory strike. Oh, and his animus went from good to never to be used. Did I miss anything? Is his pow or arm or anything different?

>>51617298
Welcome to the Molik Karn club. Lost his extra attack, had his natural side step turned into his bond, had his animus gutted, side step got nerfed, then the Bronzeback's animus was deleted from the game. The once proud assassin is just another boring beatstick in a faction of boring beatsticks.

>>51617335
Oh and Savagery was removed from the game too, meaning he can't walk 11" anymore. But please, tell me more about Mulg.

>>51617274
I suppose being themed around going for the enemy caster over all else kind of limits how far Ret can go if the opponent isn't an idiot.

>>51615626
Everyone else's too.

Is there anything even slightly morally redeeming about Skorne and Legion? Also, are legion beasts edible?

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>>51615150
>Thoughts?

I hope you get your ass kicked by an Una 2 player

Circle is the cancer rotting Warmachine from the inside out.

>>51618713
Wasn't that Cygnar a few months ago
Or was that Khador

>>51618790

No, it's been Circle since Mk 3. Part of Mk 2 as well.

Although Khador is cancer too.

>>51618713
>I hope you get your ass kicked by an Una 2 player

No chance of that, I am the local Una2 player :^)

>>51619064
>Una2 player :^)

Opinion/Cancer discarded

Quite a game you guys have there

>>51619214
Nah, I've retired my Una2 list. It's cancer and bad for the game, and not really a lot of fun to play. I think Kaya3 will both be more fun and less cancerous.

>>51619246
Kaya3 with Loki is horrifying.

>>51600124
does anyone know what the Convergence lists were?

>>51603961
I'm hoping it's pretty high, but in reality if we DO get new things it'll likely be one new model that either is a new warcaster or doesn't change anything about the game. I'm hoping for a ranged-based caster with "Field Guard: All Ranged Weapons in this Caster's Battlegroup gain Electric Weapon"

... I kind of accepted a bet saying that I would show up with an Old Witch themed army to the next gaming night and win a game.

I was kind of drunk while making that bet, so... How do I avoid embarrassing myself while shoehorning the following models into a list?

Old Witch and Scrapjack
Widowmaker Scouts
Kossite Woodsmen
2x Manhunter
Yuri
Widowmaker Marksman

>>51619421
Definitely. I doubt they're as game-breaking as Una2, though.

>>51620045
Take her in a winterguard theme. With no Winterguard of course because fuck, you don't have to even though it's a Winterguard theme

Then take a Battle Wagon or whatever the fuck your silly looking Battle Engine is called.

Take a bunch of jacks

Advance Move the jacks...because 'Winter Guard' theme

Run Scrapjack

Cast her spell to place herself next to Scrapjack

Feat on their army Turn 1

Put up Clouds if needed

Run the Battle Wagon up next to her to sac pawn to it (Because it's WinterGuard and WinterGuard 'theme')

>>51610225
Caster buffs? Skorne? You're very mistaken. Gladiators can just about kill one heavy, two is out of the question. If it's DEF12+ it probably won't even kill one. The Mauler meanwhile sits at higher PS than a Bronzeback with just as many attacks for less points and with a real animus.

>>51610281
The Mauler and Gladiator are completely mandatory in their respective factions in every list.

>>51610620
You don't think the top 2 Skorne players got lucky despite both managing to dodge Circle in a field flooded in Circle?

>>51620296
This. Trollblood players need to stop bitching and learn how to play their own faction without crutches.

>>51620387

I can tell you're a bad player.

So what do we know about the new Hordes faction?

>>51620387
the amount of handholding hordes babies seem to think they're entitled to is ridiculous. Go play 40k if you don't want to have to play tactically.

How much damage do I need to do to Imperatus to kill it through Phoenix protocol in one go; 51? Did I math correctly?

>>51620353
They still placed top 10 that's not just a fluke.

>>51620353

I think watching somebody try Una2 into Zaal2 would have been a hoot, actually.

>>51610281
>>51615332
This is true and for any semblance of internal balance to exist needs to happen but....

At the end of the day when a Legion player and a Cygnar player put little plastic men on the table the total points used match. By what you say alone, you could double every point cost in Legion and they'd still be somewhat balanced because the ratios of point costs between in-faction models would be completely unchanged. But we know this wouldn't be the case.

Every faction absolutely needs it's models points costs adjusted based on other models in the same faction that fill similar roles and available support and what have you, but having cross-faction comparisons is just as important. Each faction should have some models whose points are adjusted based on the crusader and the slayer and the bronzeback and the warpwolf and the carnivean.

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Demo guy here. Got two people interested in the game.
We did it boys.
I said the two most important things in Warmahordes were protecting your Warcaster/lock and getting the charge. Do you think I should have said managing your resources instead of getting the charge?

>>51623035

No, it's a useful lie. When they figure out it's bullshit they won't need it anymore.

>>51623175
>it's bullshit
Which one is, the managing your resources?

>>51623035

Did they decide what factions they want to play?

>>51623381
One guy got Khador and Skorne stuff, but the other was undecided.

>>51623035
>Getting the charge

That's actually bad advice anon. The first step to becoming a good player is learning how to deal with someone out threatening you and receiving a charge.

>>51623547
On average, how many factions does your average Warmachine player own?

>>51623671
Are you talking about at the store or in general?
Well, right now it's just me with Cygnar and Trollbloods, the new guy with Skorne and Khador, and some guy who comes in not very often with Legion and Khador.
I'm trying to build the scene.

>>51623737
Oh yeah, one of the store owners has Protectorate stuff, but he literally never plays so ???

>>51620126
That theme should be ancient khador delivery service

>>51623569
What you're describing is a consequence of the fact that getting the charge is important. BattleboxAnon isn't wrong about that.

The nice thing about BBox games is that those lessons arise organically from the format. Losing your caster loses you the game. Positioning, trading, and sacrificing models are an absolute necessity when you only have four pieces. Effectively lining up yours and responding to opponents' charges is something you have to do every single game.

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ok /tg/ post your WIP / Backlog .. i'll go first... just barely started all this.. ;_;

>>51625189
Oh I wish I was as fortunate as you. Painting Praetorians has broken my will to live.

>>51622220
>By what you say alone, you could double every point cost in Legion and they'd still be somewhat balanced because the ratios of point costs between in-faction models would be completely unchanged.
Absolutely not what I said. If you doubled every cost in Legion they'd obviously only get half as many models, that's silly. What I meant was that you can't compare INDIVIDUAL models cross faction. Comparing a Carnivean to a Slayer directly is pointless, because it loses sight of the context in which each of those models exists. When you're comparing the effectiveness of factions, you need to look at how they perform in the aggregate - all the lists they can bring, what those lists do for them, and how the well models perform within those lists. If they adjust the points cost of a model, it has to be with an eye to how it affects the composition and performance of every list that model is likely to appear in, not based upon some theorymachine yardstick.

Developers can (and should) have some yardsticks for comparison during the design process, especially at the start, but unless the devs come out and tell us explicitly which models those were and why/how they changed over the course of testing, we can only speculate... which, again, is a waste of time.

>>51625200
don't mreind me.. i have 2 units of swordmsen + UA i haven't put in that pic yet because i haven't primerd them yet ;_;

>>51625255
My Skorne are actually coming along somewhat fine. I think I'll be done painting them around 2019. Now if only I hadn't decided to repaint my Cygnar aswell.

>>51620325
>The Mauler and Gladiator are completely mandatory in their respective factions in every list.
That's a ridiculously broad statement. Nobody would argue that the Mauler and Gladiator are linchpin models for their factions, but "completely mandatory" "in every list"? I'm calling BS on that.

Troll lists, for one, can rarely afford to double up on damage buffs these days - when you see people bringing a Mountain King or Rok, the Mauler often gets cut. Both those alternatives are more expensive, sure, but they're there. It's also possible to just bring a couple beasts that hit hard on their own and build for infantry, as you see sometimes with Madrak2.

And Skorne sure do love their gladiators, with good reason, but I'd be willing to bet you're going to see a lot of lists cutting them to squeeze in other things - now that the stable is, in effect, so much larger. Xerxis1 never much cared about Rush - his lists are usually built to eat the charge and punch back. The much-discussed X2 "All The Archidons" list won't feature a Glad. Zaal1 doesn't necessarily find room for one - he's got other priorities.

>>51617298
Yeeeah... Mulg's not the big kid in the schoolyard anymore, that honor got taken by Rok, "the oldest and largest and drunkest of the dire trolls". On the upside he got a points break kinda? It's pretty sad.

>>51617335
Post-errata, I think you've got to give that one to the troll players. Molik got (mostly) restored to his former glory this month. Makeda1 can Rush+Lash+Quicken him up to a 21" non-linear assassination threat, albeit he has to survive free strikes now. It ain't the Molik Missile you grew up with, but it's not half bad either.

>>51625244
http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-04-28-2016
>One of the first things we did was set the price of the Slayer. This was actually the first keystone that we used as a gauge to slowly determine the point cost of literally every other model in the game I wanted the ferocious Slayer to be balanced against some of Mk II’s most potent solos. From there, every other warjack would fall into place.

>>51620901
>How much damage do I need to do to Imperatus to kill it through Phoenix protocol in one go; 51? Did I math correctly?

Anyone?

>>51625547
Mk3.1 Molik Missile is nothing compared to Mk2 still. Spending your entire fury pool to get him there is half of the reason why. You can't Carnage and clip their caster if you want to do that. You don't have Marketh to cast Savagery every turn for you. You can't just run through a line of infantry, you have to go around it. You don't get a 1" move off every attack. Jackhammer is cute but in a faction with no arc nodes unless you make your own, it doesn't cut it for assassination. Losing Savagery and Fate Walker destroyed any real offensive potential Karn had. I've tried many times to use Karn this edition as a way of picking off models at the front of an army by crunching in with damage, side stepping back, then repositioning back, but half of the time he can't make it back to safety and I'm stuck screening him. In Mk2 he could move back up to 15" rather than 7".

>>51627001
I don't have his cards on hand. You need to deal as much damage as he has boxes. Then you have to deal additional damage of at least [amount of field boxes + 1 per system]. The 1 per system part should be 5 (L,R,C,G,M).

The important part is that however much damage that adds up to can't come from the same instance. If you deal 1000 damage to a fresh Imperatus that will just trigger his Protocol and he'll be at [field boxes + systems].

I might try running a Cyclops Brute in my lists just to give my opponent something to chew on before my titans come in and punch things to death. I mean, 13/18 is about as good as the Sentry's statline at 10/21. Not to mention set defense. Only problem is the complete lack of offensive output it has, but if I can at least tie up a unit of infantry with it I'll be happy. Well, as happy as I can be since I play Skorne.

>>51590965
Wow, that's some hardcore trolling

>>51597856
Let me know when you see a Slayer getting to melee (spoiler: not gonna happen, ever, unless your opponent forgot that it even exists)

>>51627816
There are actually lists with few guns in this game. Not every faction is Cygnar/Khador, though they are of course popular.

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>>51627816
Are you playing on stupid tables without an obstruction in the middle?

Congratz; You are playing wrong and are the real cause of the "hurr cant beat them gunlines durr" problem.

>(Mordikaar 1) Void Seer Mordikaar [+29]
- Despoiler [19]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Aradus Soldier [16]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Praetorian Swordsmen (max) [13]
- Praetorian Swordsman Officer & Standard [4]
Tyrant Zaadesh [4]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
Void Spirit [4]
Void Spirit [4]
Feralgeist [2]

Can a list like this actually be played to a competitive level? For example, if I was to come up against Amon or Karchev spamming warjacks, is there ANYTHING I could do with this list in the way I play to stand a chance? Against Karchev my feat will actually do a lot of work, but how in the shit do you stand even the slightest chance against Amon? Skorne can't assassinate anymore, and Mordikaar doesn't even have a single target nuke. Are the overwhelming majority of Skorne casters just completely unable to beat Amon? What CAN Skorne do against Amon? Play Zaadesh2 and hope you blow out aspects with his feat? Though it's not like Amon has to actually do anything if you pop feat. If he has any RNG2 weapons he doesn't even need to trigger defensive strike off half of your shit.

>>51627942
Yes I am, table layout is not something I can choose as the tables at tournaments haven't changed that much and at mk3 you can't toe in at forests and obstructions tend to block charge lines as well. It's not as simple as you make it to be, Cryx does have some answers against some of the cuter gunlines but Slayer is not one of them.

>>51628033
Talk to your organizers instead of whining. The terrain rules for mk3 were changed for a reason and leaving a big open space in the middle of the table is not intended.

>>51620901
Put Grevious Wounds on it and you can ignore Phoenix Protocal

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>>51628120
"Does anyone know how much a beer costs at Target?"

"You should buy at Walmart, it's cheaper there"

>>51628116
Well I'd rather be called realist than whiner but you're free to call me whatever you want. Also, how is it not whining to ask for TOs to change tables cause I'm a special snowflake? They have limited resources in most cases and no reason to change.

>>51628153
PP actually announced an official terrain guideline for steamroller somewhere along the way simply because too many organizers and players in general keep building bad tables.

>>51628190
I know, and those exact guidelines let you build mk2 tables as they aren't very clear and thus the tables haven't changed much, also as I said even if there is blocking terrain it causes trouble with charge lines/movement for melee builds as well, things aren't as simple.

>>51628242
Well the table in >>51627942 for example is not legal. The terrain is too close to the edges and there is one too few piece to meet the minimum of 6.

>>51627139
No, the Molik Missile is not as good as it was, but that's obviously intended. Molik in Mk2 was a bogeyman to the point of becoming a meme, and free strike immunity was one of the things that pushed it over the top. He can still usually get where he needs to be if you're committing him - even most heavies don't cripple him in one swing on average dice. I wasn't suggesting using Jackhammer, just traditional threat extenders. Marketh can still upkeep and/or cast Lash for Makeda1, so she'll usually be able to toss out Carnage if you need it.

As to the Molik Yo-Yo, they reeled those sort of mechanics way in across the board in Mk3, so it shouldn't come as a shock. Legion and Circle lost a lot of their hit and run shenanigans too. You look at the Shifting Stones card lately? It's not pretty.

Like I said, the big guy's definitely not as good. But, c'mon, really:
>Losing Savagery and Fate Walker destroyed any real offensive potential Karn had

... that's a little dramatic.

>>51626296
I was actually looking for that article, couldn't find it quickly. So right there, they're talking about using the Slayer as a yard stick at the beginning of the design process... you've got to start somewhere. But between that "one of the first things" and the released rules, there are (or should have been, anyway =P) hundreds and hundreds of iterations of adjustments to models across the board. Nothing exists in a vacuum - every model in a faction subtly affects the power of every model. We all know about the idea of a "stealth" buff or nerf - even changing stuff in other factions can impact the real value of a model. If you could unwind all of that, and if the devs were infallible, you'd be able to see why a Slayer is 10 and a Gnarlhorn is 12, say. But the people screaming "why do I have to pay 15 for a Mauler IT'S NOT FAIR" are rarely even attempting to do anything of the sort.

I met some people at my LGS that want to start an unofficial Journeyman league. I play Trolls exclusively, and I have a lot of fun with them playing a Gunnbjorn list. I'm wondering, however, if this might be a good time to get into another faction as it would be a lot more gradual. The faction that interests me the most outside of Trolls is Protectorate of Menoth, and was wondering if the battle box is a good journeyman starting place. At the very least, I like the aesthetic of the caster that comes with it.

>>51629632
Yes and Yes.

That is: A JML is a good way to start a new faction, and the battlebox is the way to start a JML.

Una2 and HR nerfed: http://files.privateerpress.com/op/errata/WMH-Errata-February-2017.pdf

>>51629973
The system works

>>51629973
http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-2-8-2017 for the full thing.

Looks like they actually meant it with the dynamic updates. Una2 getting nerfed much earlier than expected... and they nipped that "no winterguard" winterguard theme force in the bud, too.

>>51629973
Short summary of biggest changes:

- High Reclaimer feat brings back models with 3" of unit commander, and cannot bring back models killed this turn.

- Una2's feat is *turn* only.

- Scarsfell Griffons lose Long Leash

- The Winter Guard theme no longer allows you to sac pawn shots to a battle engine, and you get one advanced move per WG, and only on heavy warjacks

- Deryliss is buffed

>>51630019
The system works!

>>51630041
>>51630037
>chill taxy gutted

HELLO DARKNESS MY OLD FRIEND.

I just bought a gun carriage. Oh well.

>>51630127
It's not like it's useless. The Butcher Taxi was pretty ridiculous tho

>>51630140
It didnt even win anything and loluna still does more.

>>51630041
>and only on heavy warjacks
But advance move on light warjacks was so useful in Khador!

>>51630162
Old Witch jank which let her feat in the other guy's deployment zone on the top of 1.

>>51630162
It let scrap jack get close enough to the enemy that old witch could unseen path and catch a good chunk of your deployment in her feat top of 1.

>>51630162

It prevents Scrapjack from running halfway across the board, allowing Old Witch to Unseen Path to him and dropping her feat in the enemy deployment zone turn 1.

>>51629973
Fuck this is amazing.

Can we get a Skreeeoooonk up in here?

>>51630419
The days of Skreeeeooonk are over. Deryliss actually does stuff now.

>>51629973

It's like they hired a kendo-master just to wield the nerf bat over there.

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>>51630127
this is why I don't buy stuff anymore.

>>51630127

So play it, it's pretty good. Unless you only bought it so you could have an infinite Sac-pawn sink for your warcaster in your all-warjack/advance move Khador list, in which case I take joy from the suffering of others.

>>51630665
This. It's still great under Vlad.

>>51630480
I'd say the Age of Skreeeooonk has just begun.

>>51630714
Even fucking Kossites are good under Vlad.

"good under vlad" is the most meaningless statement in the entire game.

>>51630714
>>51630778
It's also great with Sorscha among others. Stop crying and play the fucking car already.

>>51630778

Vlad's college girlfriend from the sticks then, before he got real and moved on to his old-money boss.

>>51630778
No they aren't.

>>51630901
min unit is useful if the rest of the list is ponderously slow or a pure gunline just so that you can contest against the Pit scenario.

Now that Hungerford has said that only recon is staying, min unit of Kossites will once again be completely useless.

(Severius 1) Grand Scrutator Severius [+28]
- Reckoner [16]
- Reckoner [16]
- Templar [15]
- Devout [9]
- Crusader [10]
Temple Flameguard (max) [11]
- Temple Flameguard Officer & Standard [4]
Rhupert Carvolo, Piper of Ord [4]
The Covenant of Menoth [4]
Knights Exemplar [9]
- Knights Exemplar Officer [5]

I have
KEE+UA
2x KE
2x KES
Avatar
Revenger
Repenter
Vigilant
Vassal
Choir (I need to put that in actually) Replace the KE officer or Rupert

Out of the above what could I change to make the list better
The TFG+UA+Rhupert move up with defenders ward and the +1def song to jam or hold the zone.
The Reckoners are for softening up beasts/jack possibly caster assassination
The Crusader is the heavy beat stick
The templar will protect the TFG UA and help clear infantry if I need to
The Devout is for protecting old man sevy.

>>51630624
Assuming from that statement that you formerly only ever bought new models because they were broken and you wanted to abuse them?

In that case, it's probably a good thing, honestly. Down that road there was only ever sadness and disappointment anyhow... just ask anyone who bought into Wold War or Unreasonable Elementalism how they feel about it now.

>>51630778
>"good under vlad" is the most meaningless statement in the entire game.
2nd most meaningless. "Good under pDenny" still takes the polished turd cake I think.

>>51631283
3rd on the list is "good with Haley". Which one? Don't care.

>>51630665
My feelings as well. While I recognize that having munchkins in the community is unavoidable, and that they do actually serve a purpose in helping to stress test the rules, I can't help but smile when they get a swift kick in the nuts from time to time.

>>51630665
I bought it to sacrifice pawn in a list that also has wgi, widowmakers, and gun crews.

>>51631262
I tend to think at a basic level if you look at the rules and think "this is horribly broken and/or doesn't make any sense", you should expect there's a reasonable chance of that shit getting fixed.

I bought six Scarsfells.[/spoilers][spoilers] At least Kaya3 can play them.

>>51631295
Nah, Haley has specific wants and needs. She's miserable to play against, but turd polishing isn't the reason why

Okay, Khador has once again no reason to take Theme over mercs.

>>51631740
Well it's more of a Mk2 thing really.

Uh guys

"Mercenaries Theme Force: Operating Theater
Replace the first special rule with the following:
For every full 30 points of units in this army, you can add one
Cephalyx Overlord unit to the army free of cost. Free units do
not count toward the total point value of units in the army when
calculating this bonus.
Add the following special rule:
This army can include one non-character Mercenary warjack beginning
the game controlled by Captain Sam MacHorne."

Is this going to do anything?

>>51631596
The gun carriage is still good in the theme - it's still a WG model and counts toward the theme benefits. Plus, even "just" sac pawning to WGI is still an excellent layer of insulation for your caster.

>>51631813
Sure. Devil Dogs really like that merc jack that gets weapon master against knocked-down targets.

>>51631262
No, I mean that I don't trust PP with model qualities anymore. If it's good, it will be nerfed after months of denying that it's busted, if it's bad, it will sit unchanged for a decade.

Basically only safe bet is for me to judge which models are mediocre and just buy that.

MKiii has made me lose faith in their ability to keep a handle on their game. I mean, with the Hydra, they can't even control the quality of their centerpiece models in terms of manufacture.

I understand that I'm perhaps seeing things too "cup half empty" but it's getting really annoying that PP keep on missing the cup in the first place, splashing their mess everywhere eventually getting the cup field. For people who have done this for a decade, they are way too inconsistent in their work.

>>51631877
>If it's good, it will be nerfed after months of denying that it's busted, if it's bad, it will sit unchanged for a decade.
That is provably not true:

1) The stuff they nerfed wasn't just good, but broken. I'm sorry it was your stuff, it happens to all of us.
2) The strength of 2na, HR and almost anything that got nerfed since I started playing in 2014 was never denied by PP.
3) They just buffed an ENTIRE FACTION. How much more proof of buffs to underused models do you need?

>>51631695
>if you look at the rules and think "this is horribly broken and/or doesn't make any sense"
Yeah, that. This is a competitive game, so we all naturally look for these sorts of things, and nobody's going to criticize you for using the tools at your disposal to best effect. Where it becomes munchkinism is when you find yourself buying models specifically to abuse a broken rule - not coincidentally, this is also the point where people usually end up feeling like they got burned by Privateer when the rule changes.

>I bought six Scarsfells. At least Kaya3 can play them.
No problem there. Una can still play them too!

Related - with the nerfs, what does a good Una2 list look like now? Is the change enough to encourage taking a variety of griffons? Feels like Una'll still be pretty strong - She lost quite a bit of scenario presence with the nerf, but the hitting power and assassination potential are still there in spades.

HELLO MY FRIENDS.
IS THIS MKII?

http://conflictchamber.com/#b31b78c29v7Qgd8q8q7Qgd8786gc

Khador Army - 75 / 75 points

(Irusk 1) Kommandant Irusk [+27]
- Conquest [37]
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [4]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
- Man-o-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
Man-O-War Kovnik [5]
Man-O-War Kovnik [5]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
- Man-o-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
Battle Mechaniks (max) [5]
Battle Mechaniks (min) [3]
Winter Guard Artillery Kapitan [3]

>>51632014
Conflict Chamber is mk3 my friend.

Thinking of doing something like this with my list now.

http://conflictchamber.com/#b31b_-0f6Y7v0d0d868e7S7W7TaF7-7Z8t8r

Khador Army - 75 / 75 points
Theme: Winter Guard Kommand

(Sorscha 2) Forward Kommander Sorscha [+27]
- Beast 09 [21]
- Juggernaut [12]
- Juggernaut [12]
Battle Mechaniks (min) [3]
Widowmaker Scouts [8]
Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [0]
Winter Guard Gun Carriage [18]
Winter Guard Mortar Crew [0]
Winter Guard Field Gun Crew [4]
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4]
Widowmaker Marksman [4]

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>>51631961
1) it shouldn't have been released that way in the first place. I don't play Una, but given that the most recent series of issues have been spam, they should've known better
2) The fact that they didn't deny the problem but didn't do anything about it until now in itself is a problem. Hell, video games get day 1 post patch fixes for errors and I'm 90% sure rewriting a pdf is easier than figuring out the error in coding.
3) Again, shit that should've not needed to happen in the first place. Also the collection of models gathering dust per faction outnumbers the entire skorne faction. Also Skorne change happened after a very intense and vocal protest from the community with the inital PP response saying that there was nothing wrong.

Basically it's getting harder and harder to find any decision in PP that doesn't have some kind of dark context or addendum behind it.

Eh. I didn't even play the Khador themelist, it just bugs me that they have to do this back and forth already and so often.

>>51632361
>1) it shouldn't have been released that way in the first place. I don't play Una, but given that the most recent series of issues have been spam, they should've known better
Mistakes happen. I know it sucks, I play Skorne. But are you seriously going to complain about them fixing their mistakes?
>2) The fact that they didn't deny the problem but didn't do anything about it until now in itself is a problem. Hell, video games get day 1 post patch fixes for errors and I'm 90% sure rewriting a pdf is easier than figuring out the error in coding.
These responses are really fast. They just got done with Skorne a few weeks ago and 2na was released to the wide public extremely recently.
>3) Again, shit that should've not needed to happen in the first place. Also the collection of models gathering dust per faction outnumbers the entire skorne faction. Also Skorne change happened after a very intense and vocal protest from the community with the inital PP response saying that there was nothing wrong.
Yes, shouldn't have happened. There's a lot going on in the world that shouldn't happen. Getting worked up about it really doesn't help anyone, least of all yourself. They're fixing it step by step and that's the best you can hope for. Have you ever seen a game of this complexity that was perfect at release (or major update in this case)? And PP acknowledged the Skorne issue really early on. The fix just took time and with the scope it was on that's not really a surprise.

But hey, show me a single PP quote to back that up.

>>51632462
What's Sole's ID? Apparently PPS_Soles doesn't work or I just can't search because I'm banned

>>51632361
Thank God PP is a company that it's swift in correting herself.

The game is not perfect, but tell me another game where designer fix the problems without having to wait years or an entirely new Rule edition.

The truth is that ATM PP is showing how Warmachine is the best game just for the amount of support and work they put in it to make him better.

If you don't agree, go play Infinity with your random tournament format , Warhammer with 523756 marine codex at year and shitty balance or "every model has a unique rule to make you go mad Malifaux"

>>51632361
>>51632462
Honestly, I'm a bit divided on this. On one hand, I'm glad that PP is willing to address issues with balance in a timely manner.

On the other, I'm hesitant to buy new models, because who knows what broken interaction I neither see nor ever intend to play it will be a part of. For all I know, between me buying it, building and painting and finally putting it on the table, I might not even be able to field it anymore without retooling the list I intended it for.

Like, I think Loki is a neat model, and I figure I might switch one of my Stalkers in my eKromac list for it, but already I see people crying how broken he is, so I'm now forced to hold off on buying it, because I don't own a whole lot of models. And I just might be forced to shelve it or play with 72/75 points because it might be broken in some tournament list or other and go up in points. Or maybe it suddenly stops doing what I wanted it to.

The risk is just too high for me to sink 50+ bucks into a model.

>>51632273
Looks good. I might consider switching Beast for a Kodiak, war dog, and something else, but thats just my personal preference for regular jacks over character jacks/beasts.
I might just be salt over not wanting to shell out for the models. If you have good experience with Beast 09, rock him. (hes the coolest character jack I know. The only one close is Deathjack because he is basically evil metal Bigfoot who occasionally rolls up and helps Cryx warbands.)

I love dogs and think the war dog is just great in model, use and price. Admittedly not as gross with Sorscha2 as with S1.

>>51632462
>2na was released to the wide public extremely recently.
The Una2 release date is Feb 22 per the website. Outside of events where she was pre-released, she actually hasn't had a single "tourney legal" game yet. She got fixed before she even came out.

>>51632361
> Hell, video games get day 1 post patch fixes for errors and I'm 90% sure rewriting a pdf is easier than figuring out the error in coding.

This isn't a good analogy. Even in videogames, balance changes will languish for months with x or y character or build being OP or UP for long periods.

Balance changes are quicker than bug errors. And I haven't played PP games long enough to know, but in my experience errata for straight up "Wait, we printed it with THAT wording!" typo and busted mistakes get errated only slightly slower than game breaking video game bugs.And that can be accounted for by smaller teams and the slower nature of tabletop games (and game testing).

But I like where your head is at in terms of keeping them accountable. The WarmaHordes IP is fucking awesome and deserves better than it has. It deserves the (semi)big budget videogame adaptations that Warhammer gets. It deserves consistently great models that are fun to play with on the tabletop. It deserves so much more.

File: sorscha_by_fstitz.jpg (85KB, 600x768px) Image search: [Google]

85KB, 600x768px

Okay /tg/, how do we fix Sorscha2?

Give her Elite Cadre back? Freezing Grip?

She sure needs something. I would actively consider her to be Khador's worst caster atm (Old Witch is bad, but only due to the jack-heavy meta; Zerkova2 is predictable and janky, but can pull things off; Irusk1 isn't great, but still okay. Especially with man-o-wars and Kayazy)

Whenever I try to come up with something for Sorscha2, I mentally swap her with Vlad1 or Butcher1 and the list instantly gets better.

>>51633423
LVO final wasn't a "tourney legal" game?


>>51633012
curb your fanboyism a bit. It's embarassing.

>>51633377
Loki will likely be fine. He's not spammable and he's 19 pts. He alone can't kill the world. PP can't handle the balance equation of 1 +1 = 3 that is happening right now because they don't know how to test their designs.

Frankly at this point community field test just rubs me the wrong way.
I enjoyed the mki to mkii transition and the fieldtest fine because it was indeed a big transition and the game was radically changed to the point where some huge works needed to be done. Now, they made such a big deal about how mkiii was going to be so great and how they playtested internally the shit out of it and didn't need community input.
The core game has barely changed between editions and few changes made created problems that weren't there before. This is on top of ruining balance that existed fine before.

>>51633377
What could possibly be broken about Loki? He can neither be spammed, since he's a character beast and he has no other abusable interactions.
Most of the fixes that have happened are to things to are "abused" - mostly removing killing/targeting your own stuff or plain broken like Tuna. Like, screencap this, buy Loki and if he does get nerfed in the next half year, I will send you the money you paid for him, because it's painful how short you're selling your intelligence right now. Loki is fine

>>51633565
Freezing grip.

Her thing used to be that she had limited but powerful resources to deal with anything. Also sorscha that can't freeze things at range, WTF.

>>51633423
Holy crap. Really? Oh my fucking god! The people in this thread need to go play more WarmaHordes. Are any of you in Phoenix AZ? Shit man. We need to play more and theory less.

I didn't follow the tuna situation since the circle player I know doesn't use her, but hearing this makes everyone here look like stupid assholes. Don't be mad that she was broken. Be mad that PP tried to sell her with some sorta "oh man shes gonna be so broken i gotta buy that" pandering. That is some bullshit.

>>51633673
She's been tournament legal since her original pre-release in November, when you could order a limited edition (free pin, oooh) online. Feb. 22nd is her full release.