HOW TO KILL A WIZARD

What system has a feat that lets you use obvious magic in an anti-magic field?

Extraordinary Spell Aim (Complete Adventurer) lets you create a gap in the AMF, as do Mastery of Shaping (Archmage special, SRD) and Sculpt Spell metamagic (Complete Arcane).

The Initiate of Mystra feat (PGtF) lets you cast in an AMF on a successful opposed CL check.

>>51585494

Point out that we're not playing D&D, and tell him that his old beardy guy just ate a shotgun slug.

>>51585494
>How do you kill an epic level wizard run by an extremely competent player.

Get a higher or equal level Wizard run by an even more competent player, or by the DM so you can just plot armor.

Barring that, you don't.

Paladins, preferably ones with a god of magic or anti magic, so it'd help give him protection against spells.

Why play a system where people become invincible if you don't want to deal with invincible people?

>>51585618
And the suit of armor has a small anti magic field on it, as does the sword and shield

>>51585631
because our DM refuses to play anything but 3.5e and no one else will DM

What if I stack initiative so I always go first and cast some kind of save or suck spell, and then blink out into the ethereal plane? Odds are hes going to pass with a massive WILL score, but I am relatively safe from spells on the ethereal plane right? or will the wizard just blink in there with me and one shot me?

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>>51585666

So you've got an entire table full of faggots, huh?

Does your DM want the wizard dead? And how open is he to setting up events that are unorthodox?

>>51585733
probably very? What do you have in mind?

>>51585494

Hubris

>>51585779
Ask him if you could hire a group of wizards, each able to one of the spells that prevent magical travel (Dimensional Lock, Suppression Field, ect.) Then have them hang out outside the radius of the AMF.

Then call the wizard out in a way that he comes to fight you in person at the location you've set up rather than just trying to Fireball you from the sky. If your GM really wants the guy dead, he should be lenient enough that he will allow the magic going on completely around the AMF (you may have to dig some tunnels and towers to get 360 coverage) To act as a barrier, meaning the guy is stuck unless he physically walks outside of the AMF.

Which, if you let a wizard without magic do, your martials need to commit sudoku. Set up physical traps in the area you have to, but he can't just walk through.

>>51585494
You have entered into an arms race with a powergamer.

If you are the DM, the correct response is to not do that. Alternatively, stop playing the game.

If you are another player, you have initiated PvP. Never initiate PvP, ESPECIALLY in D&D.

Basically you fucked up. The only way to win is to have another, better wizard in the hands of a more competent player, or a team full of equivalent wizards.

>>51585494
A plucky farmboy with plot armor thick enough to tank a planet-buster, a quirky group of travel buddies and a prophesy for good measure. Throw in a legendary sword and your epic level wizard is as good as dead.

>>51585494
Poison him either short-term or long-term.
Assassinate him in his sleep (And for god's sake, poison the dagger before you do it).
Destroy his spellbook and casting focus.
Send Golems after the wizard. Plural, and make sure that escape is not an option either via hostage or a well-constructed trap.

The wizard fails a power check, gets swallowed by the mists of Ravenloft, the end.

>>51585494
How do you defeat any enemy that is more powerful than you?
Bring him down to your level.
Go after his spell books, his tower, his reagents. Use anti-scrying gear to remain undetected and force him to try to find you through mundane things. Harass him so he cannot sleep and thus recover spell slots.Plant false information incriminating his allies as the jerks doing this.

Once he is worn down enough you can kill him.

>>51585494
Anything that reduces stats will do well against him. Target his lowest stat and get it to zero to absolutely assrape him. Or reduce his casting stat if you're worried about the save-or-die shit too much.

>>51585494
why do you want to kill the wizard?

>>51586157

>Once he is worn down enough you may give him permission to die

Mask, die, big guy, etc.

Why kill him when you can help him break the game instead. Tell him about how he can use epic spells to summon celestials, and then use those celestials to help him summon progressively greater numbers of celestials until he can easily exceed any epic spellcasting DC. Once the game is completely and utterly broken you can start a newer, hopefully less retarded game.

>>51585666
If you aren't the GM, why are you killing a high level wizard run by another player?

>>51586043
This guy knows wtf is up. In any event that you can't use magic to defeat magic, then get a rogue/assassin type.

This wizard is a person too, like your players. He has goals and motivations, and without a doubt, at least one thing or person he cares about. Find that weakness, and exploit it. Force his hand in some way. Find a way to attack him indirectly.

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This idea might not be that effective for the OP, as I misread and they are a player. However...

How effective would a massive swarm of weaponized stirge wights be against such a wizard?

>>51585666
Tripple sixes confirm you are actually posting from Hell.

>>51586921
All that's going to do is force him to scry your mind and glass whatever small town you grew up in before sending a extra-planar being to your location to murder you and safely transport their loved ones to his demi-plane.

Don't fuck with wizards man.

>>51587028
To be fair, it sounds like Hell.

>>51587276
there's magic items for that. He isn't omniscient, so if you don't give him reason to suspect you until it's too late, it can be pulled off. Just channel your inner Batman and prepare well enough.

>Don't fuck with wizards man.
Agreed, don't fuck with them, just fuck them.

>>51587425
Even if you pulled it off, you'll just remove the last thing keeping him from glassing the entire plane, which last I checked, not a good place to be.

This is also assuming THAT GUY even bothered to come up with a past that could be exploited rather than rolling up a nameless, friendless orphan like every other murderhobo in existence.

>>51585494
he has an stroke while eating his breakfast

>>51585989
>never initiate pvp

But I like pvp games. Just not pvp rpgs.

>The only way to win is escalate

The only way to win is walk away.

>>51587472
>Even if you pulled it off, you'll just remove the last thing keeping him from glassing the entire plane, which last I checked, not a good place to be.
Wtf are you talking about? I didn't say "destroy what he loves most", I said "exploit it". You really don't know how to think outside the box beyond murderhoboing yourself, do you? "Pulling it off" in this case would be successfully killing him.

>This is also assuming THAT GUY
Yes, you are. OP didn't say or imply it was a THAT GUY. You're just jumping to conclusions on multiple fronts now.

>>51587755
Nothing short of the threat of death of a loved one is going to cause a wizard to leave their inner sanctum to confront a bunch of lowlives who are worth less than their weight in copper pieces.

I mean, why would he even be worried if you did steal someone they cared about? They could just as easily raise them as undead, use wish to undo the damage, cut deals with demons, convert them into intelligent undead, the sky's the limits when you're at a point where reality is merely a suggestion for the plebs who don't understand cosmic power.

And I assume that the level 20 wizard is THAT GUY or at least a power gamer because that's generally who bothers playing 3rd edition nowadays besides furries and SJWs. Not to say that everyone who still plays is any of those things but they're certainly a minority.

>>51586043
Golems have Magic Immunity in 3.5, and they're difficult to damage in melee. A clay golem can deal damage that is incapable of being healed without passing a difficult check, but in turn it has susceptibility to certain spells. Stone golems are capable of being returned to full health by casting transmute mud to rock, but in turn is susceptible to a few spells as well.
Now, if you can scale up to getting a Collosus instead of/alongside them, that would be even better. A collossus is basically a walking dildo designed to be shoved firmly up wizard asses.

3.5e?
Damn, otherwise I had a perfect PF Kensai magus frostbite build that would've wrecked his shit six ways from sunday.
Or a Zen Archer Quiggong Monk that'd also wreck his shit.

Can't remember that much out of 3.5 that you could break to the point of Pathfinder except for CoDzilla and another wizard.

>>51585494
Learn the counterspell rules, it maybe you're only hope!

>>51587813
>Nothing short of the threat of death of a loved one is going to cause a wizard to leave their inner sanctum
See, just making more assumptions. The OP said it's a player. Why would he just spend the entire game in some fortress? He's going to be out doing shit at some point or another. You're also assuming it has to be a person. It could very easily be an important magic item, or his spellbook like another anon suggested. You're also overlooking the other strategies that have already been pointing out.

>And I assume...
You seem to be doing a lot of that. I'll make an assumption myself, then, and assume that you've never successfully killed a powerful wizard yourself, have you?

Wizards aren't invincible gods, no matter how well played, they have weaknesses and restrictions just like everyone else. Their large selection of smalls is also limited by the fact that they can still only do so much in a single combat round, which is why you have redundancies in preparation, so he's forced to choose to address only one of two potential obstacles, for instance.

In OP's case, the main worry is his ability to dimension door out of anti-magic fields. What do you think would happen if you caught him in an area with limited space, such as inside a cave or dungeon? That long range of DD is now limited to that space unless he wants to step out straight into solid rock and suffocate. Set up ahead of time so the room area will have a very small area to go to outside of an antimagic field, then fill that small area with several redundancies of traps with poison.

You also seem to be set in thinking that the only way to lure him out is to take or threaten something he cares about and already has, but what about enticing him with something he cares about but DOESN'T have? Say he catches wind of a powerful magic item that would be perfect for helping him craft more powerful and customized epic spells, and it can only be found in a certain cave or dungeon.

>>51588060
I mean, the wizard can just set a contingency to Power Word: Kill or Disintegrate whomever throws a counterspell on him. Or any number of ridiculous spells.

>>51588090
So in the turn he casts a spell, someone counterspells him, so he casts ANOTHER spell so fast that it kills the one countering in time to not have the first spell countered? Even assuming he does this with some meta-magic fuckery, what if there's more than one there to counter? Or what if someone's ready to counterspell the Power word or disintegrate? Or have defenses set up for offensive spells ahead of time?

>>51588088
>What do you think would happen if you caught him in an area with limited space, such as inside a cave or dungeon?
Teleport
>Say he catches wind of a powerful magic item that would be perfect for helping him craft more powerful and customized epic spells, and it can only be found in a certain cave or dungeon.
>It could very easily be an important magic item
A level 20 wizard can already PRODUCE those magic items whenever they want. Sure, it'll cost some EXP but at that point EXP is just as meaningless as gold.
>his spellbook like another anon suggested.
No wizard worth their salt is going to have only one copy of their spellbooks, especially not in a place where someone could steal it from them whenever they want.

Really, all this is assuming that the wizard player gives a fuck or is played by an absolute retard.

>>51588174
Contingency triggers immediately as the triggers are met, which means that counterspelling a contingencied spell would be akin to catching fucking light with your fingers.

But sure, if you have a mass-wizard army, he can just set contingency to teleport 6 miles away and Scry-Cloud Kill half the continent, the one you're on.

Or he could just set a meeting in a room with every square inch covered in Glyph of Wardings loaded with high level Fireballs so that you'll take 20k+ damage with the right keyword.

Or just teleport in, contingency set to true polymorph into a CR20 golem and pound the casters into paste.

>>51588178
>Teleport
Takes time unless he's got it prepared with metamagic, and he'll still have to us the DD ability to get out of the antimagic field first (and into the traps) before he can even attempt it.
>A level 20 wizard can already PRODUCE those magic items whenever they want.
They can only produce whatever it is they can cast spells for, that's why you entice them with something they don't already have. It doesn't even have to exist, you just need him to believe it does.

You seem to be under the assumption that "competent" translates to "perfect". No one can account very every single possibility and scenario and be prepared for it all the time. It's just not possible.

But go ahead, keep thinking that wizards are perfect, invincible, godly beings that can never be killed. Not my fault you never bothered with strategy beyond spell combos.

>>51588248
>They can only produce whatever it is they can cast spells for, that's why you entice them with something they don't already have. It doesn't even have to exist, you just need him to believe it does.
Why exactly would a being with over 20 INT bother falling for something like that?
>"Hmm, I can already create epic level gear in the time it takes most people to make coffee but I better leave my save little demi-plane to chase after something that might not be a trap made by my enemies."
I'm just saying man, for someone who accuses me of assumptions, you sure are making a lot of them in coming up with ways to gank the level 20 wizard.

>>51585494
Why are you trying to off this guy?

>>51588248
>>51588283
Realistically, even if you managed by some miraculous way to convince him that it isn't a trap, he'd just send a clone.
Once you ambush the clone, he'll just Maze you for eternity.

>>51588247
Unless you have another caster or an item with quickened counterspell. Seeing as how you can only have one contingency on at a time, once you take care of that one, then it's one less option available to him. There's also plenty of ways to prevent teleportation. Dimensional Anchor, Otiluke's suppressing field, and zone of respite, for example.
>>51588283
>Why exactly would a being with over 20 INT bother falling for something like that?
because playing a character with 20 INT automatically makes that player just as smart?
>I'm just saying man, for someone who accuses me of assumptions, you sure are making a lot of them in coming up with ways to gank the level 20 wizard.
>I'm just saying man, for someone who accuses me of assumptions, you sure are making a lot of them in coming up with ways to gank the level 20 wizard.
I haven't a single damn assumption, I've been coming up with OPTIONS. You're the one automatically assuming that every one of those will already be accounted for, and assuming that the wizard absolutely flawlessly in all respects, have the exact spells prepared for any single set of circumstances, and will always know what's going to happen ahead of time, because bluff totally isn't a thing, right? Surely a rogue or assassin with comparable INT couldn't outsmart the mighty and powerful god-wizard under any circumstance.

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>>51585494
If you're patient go the long game.

Every day this guy has to set up his contingencies and precautions. See if you can't occasionally throw something extremely strange but not likely lethal at him. His paranoia will cause him to spend even more time preparing to protect himself and make him even more concerned about his life.

This is good. Feed that paranoia. It will grow from the small seed in the heart of every wizard into a twisted oak of fear that lives in the heart of every high level wizard. Eventually it will become so great he will lock himself in his tower and only act remotely. When he learns the limits of this, he will seek Godhood, as is standard to wizard psychology.

Once he goes off and tries to be a God, you're all good. Either the current Gods will kill him first or he'll be busy with God stuff for the rest of eternity. You can go back to waving a sword around enjoying having enough strength to carry two Amazon princesses and enough constitution to keep them satisfied all night.

How I did this last time in pathfinder was the following:
>mythic ranger
>using a combination of mythic powers and feats you can do a super snipe that auto threatens/confirms a crit from another solar system if they're on the prime or 100 trillion miles away on one of the infinite planes
>you can destroy your identity so the wizard literally is incapable of knowing who you are before the attack occurs
>you can through items and the like make a shot that pierces all magic defenses

Then you wait for him to leave his demiplane using wish to locate him and going to the plane he is on, finding him instantly using mythic powers and sniping him for 4x his HP.

Have your murderhobo dual wield rods of cancellaion and use them to beat the living crap out of the wizard's wards, then the wizard.

Everyone who can use a wand, buy a wand of feeblemind and pour it on eventually the wizard will be reduced to a drooling incontinent husk.

>>51588470
>because playing a character with 20 INT automatically makes that player just as smart?
It'd certainly raise some eyebrows if the guy who has 20+ INT falls for something that even an idiot could see is a trap.
>I haven't a single damn assumption, I've been coming up with OPTIONS.
Which only work on the assumption that the person playing the level 20 wizard is either an idiot or doesn't know how to actually play the game.

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>>51585993
good luck I'm behind 7 clones

>>51588514
Don't even need that if you've got the option to port over Monk from Pathfinder.

Hitting the wizard with a stun that he has to roll 28 on a d20 to save against and then hit him with flurries and about 340 coup-de-grace vital strike arrows leaving him at a cool negative sixteen thousand hitpoints, or something around those lines.

Along with having 41 perception, 53 AC, Fort +24, Ref +27, Will +30, spell resistance 30 and a flight speed of 90 feet per round. Oh and a CMD of 67.


Of course this is min-maxed to shit, but if you're going overkill, this is pretty overkill.

>>51588488
Conan would get assraped by a level 20 wizard who knows what he's doing.

Also, it's kinda hard to feed into paranoia when you have spells that allow you to see into the future.

>>51588565
>It'd certainly raise some eyebrows if the guy who has 20+ INT falls for something that even an idiot could see is a trap.
Once again, there's this little skill called "Bluff". And if you are the type that thinks every single dungeon crawl is a trap set just for you by the other players, then I'm sure you're just a BLAST to play with.
>Deception, planning, and traps only work on idiots
An idiot wizard would be a simple as walking up behind him and start stabbing him in the back with poisoned weapons. The planning would be BECAUSE he's competent. Once again, competent doesn't = omniscient and omnipotent. He can only have so many spell slots in a day, and they are all prepared ahead of time, so once things get rolling, he has to work with what he's got. If he's a player, then the others would obviously be aware of how he plays it, what schools are preferred, what tactics he likes to use, and can prepare for that in any number of ways. Too many ways to account for them all.

>>51585494
I played a Changeling Lich in 4e, focused on damage/control and had the like dice roll prediction stuff for ensuring hits of spells

I built up an army of wizard revenants using animate dead and had a mountain fortress to protect my phylactery and body copies of my allies with resurrection scrolls/gear

had a level 30+ magic circle in place as well with my min maxxed arcana

What yall niggas got?

>>51588649
>What yall niggas got?
A good system.

>>51588686
It was fun, what more do you need?

>>51588648
dont even bother, the wizard fanboys will always argue from the impossible scenario of the wiz always having multiple copies of every single spell prepared with multiple metas despite being impossible, and of course they always know whats going to happen ahead of time and be perfect prepared because WIZARDS ARE TEH BESTEST

>>51585494
The old daidoji bodyguard class (sometimes hybrid) in 3rd could slay a wizard because of its ridiculously high saving throws, mres at epic levels, improved mettle and improved reflexes. From there, you just needed to dimensional anchor the fucker and proceed to haste slash him to the death. But then again, that motha could kill everything, so what's the point.

Traditionally there's always a very smart rogue that knows 201 ways to slay a caster and the fact that they don't contingency protect themselves against everything. Epic hiding can also be aided by magical objects, traps can still kill anyone not careful enough, not to speak of natural or unnatural hazards which are undetectable and unbeatable by generic spells (unlike most traps), poison can be delivered even when out of proximity by a plethora of mechanisms, and not every poison is obvious or detectable by magic.

Other casters are also a great choice, a sufficiently buffed cleric is fearsome to behold, and a psion can directly "cheat" by killing the wizard attacking with roundabout methods, render him unable to cast spells, or just wrangle a psychic parasite on them (and watch hilariously as they can't into fortitude or breath for their lives).

And then the old school tactic, let the wizard run out of spells in a sanctum or even treasure vault (can't teleport or dimension door) and use overwhelming numbers against him. Interrupt casting or just throw bodies at the wizard.

Now, there are people who are going to discuss all of these points and grab to some small ledge to try and make the whole post invalid, I'm beyond caring about that (herrings ain't food for me anyway), but you get my meaning. The power of the wizard is to be the ultimate batman class, the most prepared and cautious a player is, the more awesome rewards for them; but even then batman is still a human. There's something he couldn't possibly have anticipated, this kills the wizard and all that.

>>51588700
It was mainly just a joke, couldn't leave it hanging since it was set up so well for me to take a crack at it.

Never really played 4e, went from PF to 5e but I'm glad you enjoyed it anon.

>>51585494

>Anti magic fields wont work because he has feats that let him cast dimension door to just blink out of it.
There is no such feat.

>He has a plethora of save or die spells and were a little too scared to try and just rush him down in combat.
Ring of spell turning.

>>51588723
It's too bad changelings suck in 5e, the stat bonuses are just super weak

>>51588707
Why would you need multiple copies of every spell prepared on a single person when you've got infinite simulacrums?
You've effectively got infinite spells, just not on a single entity.

>>51588648
>Once again, there's this little skill called "Bluff".
Zone of Truth
>inb4"but I'm not actually there with him"
then how are you using bluff?
>An idiot wizard would be a simple as...
There's them wacky assumptions again.

Why does this autistic anon assume that the wizard player would distrust his allies so much that he constantly spies on them and doublechecks everything they tell him

Nigga stop reaching haha

>>51588744

You've never read the riles for a simulacrum before.
Or maybe you're just really really bad at reading.

>>51588819
Make a simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum, simulacrum casts simulacrum.

Repeat this as many times as necessary.

"If YOU cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates YOU Created with this spell are instantly destroyed."
Apparently it is you who cannot read, dear anon.

>>51588771
>Zone of Truth
because that's always going to be up around the wizard all the time, and all interaction with him HAS to be face to face. And of course it's not like you can't wear a magic item to counter that, or convince an intermediary to actually believe it.
Fuck your inb4, I just answered that.
>There's them wacky assumptions again.
No, that's not an assumption. An idiot playing a wizard is that simple. Of course in your mind, the most idiot of wizards take insane levels of prep to kill, while even moderately competent ones are just out the window impossible? You've obviously never gone against many wizards, or if you did, it was only with your own so you can still say wizards the the best. Gods forbid you ever find yourself in a game where you actually need to use strategy and planning for anything.

>>51588836

What are you quoting?
I'm looking at the spell description, and this isn't in it.

>>51588843
could also have someone else use mind altering magic to make you believe it, too. had a sorc in one of my campaigns do that to deceive the BBEG that he was showing him to where the rest of the party was hiding from him, rather than where they were hiding to ambush him.

>>51588649
I played a rakshasa archmage. He was a hunter and hunted everything in the world. He had a statue of elven princess in the garden of his villa that was actually a real princess turned to stone.

In the end he decided to hunt down some demi-god dragons and kind of failed. Considering that dragons could do magic related to their "portfolio" at will and I still missed my win by only two in game hours it was still a really good track for an archmage.

Also killed more than a hundred thousand elves in the process of hunting down dragons. They were just collateral damage.

>>51585540
3.5 is an easy case - just use shrink item on a lead cone and wear it as a hat. Antimagic field hits you, it unshrinks and covers you with lead, protecting you from the field.

>>51588736
>Ring of spell turning.
Have you ever been hit by conjuration based sonic splashes ? No ? Try out.

>>51588879
I'm quoting the PHB.
"You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or
humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates. The simulacrum is friendly to you and creatures you designate. It obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat. The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never
increases its levei or other abilities, nor can it regain expended spell slots. If the simulacrum is damaged, you can repair it in an alchemical laboratory, using rare herbs and minerals worth 100 gp per hit point it regains. The simulacrum
lasts until it drops to 0 hit points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts instantly. If YOU cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates YOU created with this spell are instantly destroyed."

Emphasis on the important parts.
There's a reason why infinite wish factory works within the rules in 5e, simply due to the simulacrum shenanigans.

>>51588907
Evil characters, not even once

>>51588843
>And of course it's not like you can't wear a magic item to counter that
Wouldn't that be detectable by "detect magic" though?
>convince an intermediary to actually believe it.
Whose the intermediary and why exactly would this wizard trust their judgment?
>An idiot playing a wizard is that simple.
There's dem dere assumptions again.
>>51588896
>mind altering magic
Elf

>>51588818
Because non-paranoid wizards don't survive to level 20. They are killed off by other wizards who do have paranoia.

>>51588915

Lead doesn't protect from antimagic.

>>51588927
Nigga a wizard like that anon is describing would run out of spell slots in his first waking hour, stop bein a dumb fuck and go to fuckin bed son

Stupid assholes talkin about wizards who cast a billion different spells every time they talk to someone, god damn

>>51588924
Hey now. Evil characters are supposed to lose. It was also part of my agreement with the DM - I play a crafty villain and players get to win against him unless they turn out to be complete retards.

>>51588946
Anyone the wizard talks to could be any manner of shape-shifting monsters hoping to trick them into doing something crazy or suicidal.

You don't get to level 20 by taking chances.

>>51588922

Oh, you're quoting 5e.
You're still entirely wrong though.
Simulacrums do not have class features or the ability to cast spells.
It also specifically says that they can't learn.

>>51588967
Nigga what the fuck did I just say about saying stupid shit? READ nigga, READ.

>>51588946
They don't cast them when there is no need. Paranoid wizards either don't travel in person instead using projections and other stuff or they use short and precisely planned operations where they get ready to kill god on the spot if such a need arises.

The first type will just walk into a trap lose some type of copy and shrug it off. The second will glass the whole area around the trap and bail out. Because shit that they can pull of at 20 level is ridiculous. Things like at will dimension doors and similar shenanigans.

>>51588919

OP was specifically asking about save or die spells, you retard.

>>51588977
If you think it is stupid I would like you to meet my rakshasa archmage. That is exactly what happened to other players in the game. He shapeshifted and that almost got them all killed. Also 100 thousand elves died.

>>51588972
>The duplicate is a creature, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates
>Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.
I mean, you're not the first to have tried to convince yourself that it doesn't be like it is but it do.

Simulacrum wish factory is literally supported by RAW; by how the spells function.
By your words, if it can never learn and never has any spells, why did they add "nor can it regain expended spell slots."
Your entire argument is baseless.

>>51588981
Yeah, I get you
But anon is trying to make points about the wizard casting 5+ different spells just when trying to talk to a nigga. THAT is unsustainable. THAT is the kind of dumb shit I'm talking about, you dig?

>>51588926
>makes all sorts of assumptions
>accuse others of doing the same
This is called "projection", you retarded tryhard faggot.

>>51588988
Than he should rethink what he is asking about. A level 20 wizard even without widening his spell selection through scrolls should have at least three different ways to dispose of people.

>>51589005
Bitch nobody gives a shit about your furry donut steel

>>51587028

would explain playing 3.5

>>51587367
But one of their own making. Personally I enjoy both running and playing 3.5, it does quite a few things much better than any other edition of D&D, but if they don't want to play it they could always DM something else themselves.

>>51588972
>>51589006
To even further pound the fact that you were wrong into it;
http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/09/17/if-i-cast-simulacrum-my-duplicate-lack-of-7th-spell-slot-that-i-used-to-create-him/
Devs explaining that not only can simulacrums cast spells, but they can also cast wish.

>>51589006

You're arguing that an illusion gets full class features and spell usage, despite the rules not saying this is so.
Illusions by default cannot do this, so to override that, you need a more specific rule.
No such rule exists.

>By your words, if it can never learn
It says that right in the description
>and never has any spells, why did they add "nor can it regain expended spell slots."
No idea. It's basically a useless sentence fragment without more context.

For example, saying "A fighter cannot regain expended spell slots" does not mean that fighters have spell slots.

Yes I'm being a rules lawyer, but you started it.

>>51589012
You're the one assuming that the wizard player in question is an idiot.

It's not my fault that you can't into arguments sweetie.

>>51589026
>Take me off this thread, please and thank you
That was rude, he wanted a direct confirmation. That cuck.

>>51589011
Well 2-3 he probably has in permanent or X/day use items. We don't know what route exactly this wizard OP is talking about took so we can't make assumptions about countermeasures.

He could have as well be not a pure wizard or somehow get Sense Motive and other skills in his skill list and than get a bonus to them through spells. And all the shit your are trying to pull off to foll the spells becomes irrelevant.

Fighting a 20 level wizard is all about preparation. You need to know exactly what he can do and what options he prefers to do. After that you can cook some scheme that may have a chance of working.

>>51588926
>Wouldn't that be detectable by "detect magic" though?
Do you use detect magic on every party member every time you encounter them, then get scared when they got a new magic item? By level 20, they'd obviously have several already.
>Whose the intermediary and why exactly would this wizard trust their judgment?
You're the one who assumes to know all the details, so you tell me why they wouldn't? Because you would obviously know if the wizard had any NPC underlings, or a long time contact, and how he waste spells on every type of detection on every single person they talk to.
>There's dem dere assumptions again.
Fuck you and your projecting, you assblasted little bitch. You're like a five year old playing pretend "nu-uh, because of this!"
>Elf
Oh, so now everyone's an elf, oh omniscient one?

I'm done, go fuck yourself you little bitch baby.

>>51589016

Well since a wizard has no way to know in advance that you have a ring of spell turning, they'll probably kill themselves on it anyway.

>>51589034
Again;
>http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/09/17/if-i-cast-simulacrum-my-duplicate-lack-of-7th-spell-slot-that-i-used-to-create-him/
Even if you don't want it to be like it is, it do.

>Yes I'm being a rules lawyer, but you started it.
You're not being a rules lawyer, you're running off of RAI while being buttflustered that you're wrong seeing as the devs themselves confirmed that simulacrums can cast spells.

>No idea. It's basically a useless sentence fragment without more context.
You're a fucking idiot.

>Illusions by default cannot do this
>The duplicate is a creature, partially real
This isn't a normal illusion spell to even start off with.

>>51589042
Yeah he's a bit wonky. Though there were probably hundreds of posts in between those.

>>51589026

He's not actually a dev, he's a "story designer" and had nothing to do with writing the rules.

>>51589078
Sage Advice is literally built around "Questions on Dungeons & Dragons answered by designers".
But yeah, he probably doesn't check with the rest of the devs on rulings he is unsure of.
That's also a shit excuse to try to pass of RAI as RAW, as by RAW a simulacrum is a fully functioning copy of yourself but with less HP.

>>51589041
not the same anon retard. i been following the whole conversation, and all you do is make assumption after assumption, and seem to think that wizards have unlimited spells per day and all this other shit
like >>51589062 said
>You're like a five year old playing pretend "nu-uh, because of this!"
you don't have enough fucking spells to prepare for every single thing, especially with the level of paranoia your suggesting. theyd talk to a handful of people in a day and be tapped because "muh paranoia"

>>51589069
That's assuming that wizard is not only has no standard high-level paranoia but also is extremely dumb.

In case of such wizard just wait until he forgets to breath and suffocates.

>>51589073

>Even if you don't want it to be like it is, it do.
That guy isn't a game dev, he's a "story designer", and that is not official rules errata

>You're a fucking idiot.
Nice non-argument.

>This isn't a normal illusion spell to even start off with.
So that means it can suddenly cast spells?
lol
What a retarded argument.
You have nothing other than an unofficial tweet by someone who works for WOTC

>>51589034
>>51589078
To further iterate;
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Clone_Army
This has been a thing for a long time.

>>51589062
>Do you use detect magic on every party member every time you encounter them
Is there any particular reason why I wouldn't if I did something to cause them to want to kill me?
>You're the one who assumes to know all the details
No, I'm just poking holes in your plan so you don't end up killed by the walking demi-god that you're trying to assassinate.
>Fuck you and your projecting, you assblasted little bitch. You're like a five year old playing pretend "nu-uh, because of this!"
Can you get more triggered?
>so now everyone's an elf
An Elf wizard isn't exactly breaking new ground y'know.
>I'm done, go fuck yourself you little bitch baby.
K thx love you <3

>>51589097

Explain the exact steps a wizard could take to find out you're wearing a ring of spell turning.

>>51589107

>using 1d4chan memes as an argument
Wow, the desperation really hit you hard, huh?

>>51589104
>You have nothing other than an unofficial tweet by someone who works for WOTC
Waaaah, I have to force my non-understanding onto others.

>http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/02/26/simulacrum-casts-true-polymorph-on-an-ancient-dragon/
Let's see, who's Jeremy Crawford, the man confirming that simulacrums do infact have the ability to cast spells?
I think I have seen his name before?
Do you, perchance, know who he is?
I think he might have something to do with 5e.

Waiting for maximum damage control mode, you're already half-sperging out, don't stop now buddy.

>>51589090
This entire thread only really works based on the assumption that the person who is playing the wizard either doesn't know what he's doing or is dumb enough to allow himself to get put into these hypothetical situations where the other player(s) can gank him.

The reality is that you're not going to beat a wizard unless you yourself are a high-powered mage. He doesn't need a million+1 spells to do it with either because at that level, he'll have so many wands, staffs, scrolls, metamagic rods, orbs, etc. that even if you could get him without his spellbook, he'd have so much swag that it literally wouldn't matter.

I'm sorry that this triggers you so much but nobody who has been on /tg/ would honestly suggest ways to kill a level 20 wizard if they were actually familiar with the way that wizards worked in 3.PF.

Sorry

>>51589113
Detect Magic

>>51589113
Kill you with conjuration area effect spell and loot your corpse. No SR, save as high as wizard cares to do.

Use buffed and miniaturised familiar to search you.

Drop a celestial/fiendish lion pack and fuck away to see how you will deal with them.

Cast a spell on you that is spell turned on the wizard but wizard is actually shielded against it by immunity.

Cast a first level quickened spell to probe defenses.

Etc.

regarding the simulacrum discussion
>Simulacrum creates an illusory duplicate of any creature. The duplicate creature is partially real and formed from ice or snow. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)
It's a 7th level spell, so you would have to be at least level 26 to create a simulacrum that can also cast simulacrum

>>51589141
>but nobody who has been on /tg/ would honestly suggest ways to kill a level 20 wizard if they were actually familiar with the way that wizards worked in 3.PF.
I mean.. if you're capable of making even more broken builds then why not.
There are builds out there that literally cannot fail a save against a mage and attacking 4 times in a round for 500+ damage with a dimensional anchoring wep.

>>51589097
>anything short of impossible levels of preparation is window licking retarded
jesus christ you're such a fucking tool kys already

>>51589126

I looked up the person who he is supposedly responding to.
He never said anything about simulacrums.

Also: tweets are not official errata.

>>51589160
We're discussing 5e, where that restriction is removed.
5e simulacrum gains whatever you have, at whatever level you are at. It is a perfect copy of you, only at half hp.

>>51589176
Theeeere we go, maximum damage mode.
>Also: tweets are not official errata.
Of course, because there is nothing to errata when he is just confirming what they can do by RAW.

Also, are you actually trying to imply that Sage Advice is a sham?
Are you actually getting this desperate?

>>51589109
I'm the one that brought up the mind control, if youd bother actually reading an entire post instead of cherry picking like a faggot, maybe you could put two and two together and realize that you can get someone else to mind control you into believing the lie you are about to tell, which would still register as true in a zone of truth. fucking hell you are stupid. I dont blame him for getting triggered with how frustratingly retarded you are

>>51589166
Chances are though, the kinda builds that you're talking about would either be unavailable in a normal game or would be banned on the premise that being able to have a character who cannot fail a save while dealing 2000 damage a turn is insanely broken by the standards of people who only look at damage dealt rather than utility.

>>51589175
No I just assume that wizards are at least as varied as I've seen. And they were not all even optimised.

Around 70% of proposed options will get you killed by one or the other wizard at the very start. Because they use different approach to problem solving.

>>51589156
Only legit idea was the last one, and that can be countered with a readied action to activate it.
>>51589150
Go read the spell description of that, and see how useful it is.

>tfw anons want to destroy the possibility of a massive 20th-level wizard clone-orgy
Now none of us will be virgins

>>51589150
Ok, now you know what school the magic is from. next step?
>>51589156
>party member has a new magic item
>better kill him to see what it is
THAT GUY detected

>>51589188

>Of course, because there is nothing to errata when he is just confirming what they can do by RAW.
I've explained why it isn't. And an FAQ would be equally valid.

>Also, are you actually trying to imply that Sage Advice is a sham?
Well, since I just independently researched their claim at the source and found that it was false, they either lied, or were somehow mistaken.
I've literally never heard of this website before now, so don't bother talking it up.

>>51589188
>>51589176
I don't understand what you're arguing against, simulacrum has always been able to cast spells, even in 2e.

It even worked in baldurs gate senpai, I believe the general consensus is you're reading it wrong.

>>51589195
The entire premise is to kill a, from what we've gathered, probably lvl 20 wizard or close to it.
There are builds that by RAW can wreck him 6 ways from sunday without even digging into obscure splat books.

I mean shit, good luck getting a wizard to survive a Zen Archer Quiggong Monk with Fort +24, Ref +27, Will +30, spell resistance 30, AC 53 and a CMD of 67 with 8 attacks hasted.

Tl;dr, if you want to kill an overpowered wizard, there are ways.

>>51585989
>Never initiate PvP
Why?

>>51589141
no youre the one who doesn't know how it works if you think any of that matters. he can still only use so many spells in one round, he would still have to take time to GET the items, and you still aren't accounting that the others could get the jump on him.

but go ahead keep sucking wizard dick. sorry your a fag

>>51589203
>Only legit idea was the last one, and that can be countered with a readied action to activate it.
I don't see how you will survive 200+ damage from a conjuration spells with no SR.

Familiar may fail if the one searched is some kind of spot master. Otherwise chances of that are pretty low.

Making enemy problem of your summoned minions is ages old tradition between wizards. If they die you can always summon more.

Don't see how it is unviable. Being able to defend against your own spells is common sense.

Well now you need to somehow guess which spell the wizard will drop first. Good luck readying an action on that. Even if wizard doesn't hide his spellcasting it is not guaranteed to work.

>>51588700
>It was fun
Maybe for an autist like you sure.

>>51589227

The rules do not state that they get spells and class features.
It says they are semi real illusions with no ability to learn.
RAW: they cannot cast spells.

>>51589191
No, I will continue blaming you for being triggered when you're sperging out over assumptions while making assumptions that assume that the wizard would actually put himself in a position that would benefit his enemies that most.
>>51589203
>>51589219
It'd allow me to detect a new magic aura on them and a successful arcana/spellcraft check would allow me to figure out what sort of ring it's supposed to be.
>>51589219
You do realize that this thread is about someone coming up with ways to kill a party member right?

>>51589179
if it's 5e, then why the fuck are you discussing it in a thread pertaining to 3.5 wizards? gtfo

>>51589219
No. I assume open hostilities. Or else spell tuning won't come into play.

>>51585494

Why exactly are you all trying to kill a fellow player? I read through this pretty carefully and I don't see an answer for this.

>>51585732

What this anon said.

>>51585560

>Extraordinary Spell Aim, Mastery of Shaping, Sculpt Spell.

None of those things let you create a gap in shit. I seem to remember this faggotry going around back in the day but they all shape the area of a spell that YOU (in this case the wizard player) are casting, if someone casts anti-magic field on him or uses an item to put one around him it doesn't do shit and you've got to be a special kind of stupid as a player or a GM to buy the argument that's being made to you.
If you or your GM is this stupid then there's no hope for you.

>Initiate of Mystra

Apparently you're playing in FR, that's your first mistake right there.
More importantly I thought you said this guy was an "epic level wizard," why does he have a cleric feat?

Anyway, he can't be on his guard all the time so....

>Wait until he falls asleep.
>Big-strong fighter type stuffs him into a bag of holding.
>Sneaky-asshole rogue type standing by with portable hole.
>Chuck bag of holding with wizard stuck inside it into the portable hole, a hole is torn into the void and the bag and it's contents are lost forever per ADnD 2nd Ed. DMG. Problem solved.

>>51589226
>I've explained why it isn't.
What you've done is read the spell once, went off on a RAI tangent because you're too dumb to actually understand how the spell works.

>I've literally never heard of this website before now, so don't bother talking it up.
It takes you two seconds to realize that it's a site built around people asking the devs of 5e questions, and the devs will clarify them.

Also the tweet literally is right here;
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/688439108851478528
where the dude continues with "I meant after hes burned the LR. If the dragon got TP'd to a humanoid. And the wizard used magic jar to possess him. (1/2)
and the dragon is then turned back. Would the wizard be forced out (because condition of humanoid no longer applies) (2/3)"
See, wouldn't it be strange, seeing as how you are adamant that the whole thing is an elaborate ruse to make you look like more of an idiot, if such thing is even possible, that his follow up statements back up the original tweet that may very well have been deleted?

Being wrong feels pretty shitty huh, anon?

>>51589202
>Around 70% of proposed options will get you killed by one or the other wizard at the very start.
were only talking about ONE wizard, which can be specifically planned for by the ones familiar with him. seriously just kys fag

>>51589089
Not only less HP. Less levels, too. Will the clone even have a 9th level spell slot, being of half the original's level? If not, then how can he know Wish?

>>51589254

>I don't see how you will survive 200+ damage from a conjuration spells with no SR.
It doesn't address the question of how you find out they have a ring of spell turning. This is an unrelated tangent.

>Familiar may fail if the one searched is some kind of spot master. Otherwise chances of that are pretty low.
How is the familiar supposed to identify a magical item?

>Making enemy problem of your summoned minions is ages old tradition between wizards. If they die you can always summon more.
Once again, doesn't address the issue.

>Don't see how it is unviable. Being able to defend against your own spells is common sense.
What save or die spells is a wizard going to cast on someone that he is immune to on the off chance they have a ring of spell turning?

>Well now you need to somehow guess which spell the wizard will drop first. Good luck readying an action on that. Even if wizard doesn't hide his spellcasting it is not guaranteed to work.
I didn't say it was guaranteed.

>>51589263
Can't even remember how we slipped into 5e, but king autismo down here;
>>51589259
seems to just be sperging out hard as fuck.

Also,
>RAW: they cannot cast spells.
RAI* FTFY, because that is what you're working off of since as the other anon pointed out, Simulacrums have worked the same way since 2nd ed, and can cast spells. It even says so in the spell itself due to it POINTING OUT that they cannot REGAIN EXPENDED SPELL SLOTS.

>>51589260
>It'd allow me to detect a new magic aura on them and a successful arcana/spellcraft check would allow me to figure out what sort of ring it's supposed to be.
Go read the description of Detect Magic, the most it lets you do is identify the school the spell is from, not what the specific spell is until it's actually activated.

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head of vecna him

>>51589288
We're discussing 5e, which makes a perfect copy of you at the same level you cast it.
3.5 and 2nd ed was limited in levels however, but not the 5e version.

>>51589282

I'm confused, why did you just quote something that proves you wrong?

>>51589285
>Anyway, he can't be on his guard all the time so....
I don't see OP knowing anything about wizard besides the fact that said wizard used some save or die spells.

It's like planning to destroy a tank while knowing about it's abilities only the fact that it has machinegun. No data on main cannon, armor, active defenses and so on. I mean you can in theory pull it off. But it will completely rely on luck and your opponent being dumb as rock.

>>51589231
Time Stop+Gate
>No save
>No SR
>Transports them to whatever plane of existence you want, all as a standard action.
So much for him.

>>51589259
> It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates
I'm pretty certain class, spellcasting ability, spell levels, etc, etc fall under ALL the statistics of the creature it duplicates. You're willfully misinterpreting the wording.

The only concrete non-debatable example of simulacrum functioning on an official product is baldurs gate, which once again casts spells.

>>51589301

Inferring information and going off of past editions is not RAW, anon.
You would realize this if you weren't retarded.

>>51589308
If used in conjunction with spellcraft, it also allows me to detect how powerful the effect is based on its level.

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>>51585494
hit him with some against whom save or die spells are useless

>>51589269
If we're going by PF, a divination wizard cannot be surprised thanks to an ability they get at level 1.

>>51589310
Ohhhh
They fucked up when they wrote that, I think :3
Going to do that shit just to confuse my DM

>>51589315
scratch that, neverwinter nights also has simulacra able to cast spells, yet more mounting evidence against you

>>51589315

>I'm pretty certain class, spellcasting ability, spell levels, etc, etc fall under ALL the statistics of the creature it duplicates.
Then you need to go actually look at the rule book.

>The only concrete non-debatable example of simulacrum functioning on an official product is baldurs gate, which once again casts spells.
A video game based off of 3.5 is not non-debatable proof of how spells work in 5e?
Cool. Great argument.

>>51588907
>I played a autistic archmage. He was a autist and autist everything in the world. He had a statue of elven princess in the garden of his autism that was actually a real princess turned to autism.
>In the end he decided to autist some autistic dragons and kind of failed. Considering that dragons to do autism related to their "autism" at will and I still missed my win by only two in game hours it was still a really good autism for an autistic autist.
>Also killed more than an autism thousand elves in the process of autisming down dragons. They were just collateral autism.

That's what you sound like to people who aren't retarded anon.

>>51585494
Scare him into a heart attack. He is probably a really old guy

>>51589323
so now you know it's a strong magic aura. That narrows it down to an abjuration spell of 7th, 8th, or 9th level. How do you narrow it down from there?

>>51589337

What do video games based off of 3.5 have to do with RAW in 5e?

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>>51589346
>Tries to accuse others of autism
>In the most autistic way possible
Wew lad

>>51589343
Isn't Baldur's Gate AD&D?

>>51589352
Not to mention that if it's a ring, it could also just be plated in lead, then again with another material, then it doesn't ping at all.
>Each round, you can turn to detect magic in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

>>51589311
Avoiding the question, moving on.

>>51589319
>still in maximum damage control.
I mean shit man, whatever floats your boat, you do your RAI interpretation and run with that and us adults with working reading comprehension can play with ours.
>avoided the whole fact that the spell outright tells you the specifications regarding that the simulacrum cannot REGAIN EXPENDED SPELLSLOTS.

>>51589313
That's takes an action to cast, and you are not beating the monk in initiative seeing as he has a flat +13 init mod.

Keep in mind that this is a build that was made to break Beastmas, which is soloing a Shoggoth, Balor, Pit Fiend, Tarn Linnorm, Ancient Gold Dragon, Solar and a Tarrasque in two days with only one rest.
A wizard doesn't stand a chance in hell against that overpowered abomination.

>>51589141
>my white room theorycraft is better than your white room theorycraft

>>51589353
>>51589343
They're context for it working in previous editions as me and the other anon are saying it seems to continue working. You'll notice I never explicitly mentioned 5e anywhere when relating to the games.

>I'm pretty certain class, spellcasting ability, spell levels, etc, etc fall under ALL the statistics of the creature it duplicates.
>Then you need to go actually look at the rule book.
Would you like to cite where statistics of a creature explicitly does not include it's class and associated features.

>>51589328
Aye they did fuck up since it does make the whole Wish Factory work, which is obscene.

>>51589298
>It doesn't address the question of how you find out they have a ring of spell turning.
It does. Area effect spells are not spell turned. So I will find out that they had a ring of spell turning after they are dead.

>How is the familiar supposed to identify a magical item?
Using wizard skills or Share Spells.

>Once again, doesn't address the issue.
Once again I will find it out after looting it from the corpse.

>What save or die spells is a wizard going to cast on someone that he is immune to on the off chance they have a ring of spell turning?
Baleful polymorph or polymorph any object for example. Protection can be attained through magic items, spells and some races.

>>51589363
It's pretty heavily modified, but it's based on AD&D 2nd edition. The only reason I bring it up is it's an official D&D product which directly contradicts mr sperg

>>51589381
So you default to killing and looting everyone with any sort of magical items without knowing what they are first? that guy confirmed, just kill yourself

>>51589368

Why are you still posting after posting a quite that proved you were wrong?
He was very clear in what he said.
Note how the word "simulacrum" doesn't even appear anywhere on the page you posted.

Are you really that upset that RAW simulacrums can't cast spells?
It may be RAI that they can, but without official support for that, it remains tentative RAI.

>>51589365
What happens when you enchant a lead item? Will it detect? Do you need to cover it up with another, non-enchanted lead sheet?

>>51589346
Sorry. If providing an entertainment to other players with explicit agreement of DM is now autism I really fear for all other people who have it worse than me.

>>51589401
You've got an entire thread proving you wrong and you've yet to deliver on anything that backs up your statement.
The ball is in your court, bucko.

>oh shit, the tweet actually backs up what he was saying.
>I KNOW, I'LL PULL IT OUT OF CONTEXT

>>51589141
Hi, I'm a level 20 cleric, single class. I'm also a full-caster and I just wanted to ask if there's any way I can make you feel better about the poor life decision you made in becoming a wizard before I rape you to death?

>>51589379

Once again, video games based off of previous editions have nothing to do with how spells work in current edition.

>Would you like to cite where statistics of a creature explicitly does not include it's class and associated features.
That's not how this works.
You have to show that spells and class features are part of a character's statistics.
You don't get to weasel word your way into a better position.

>>51589368
>That's takes an action to cast, and you are not beating the monk in initiative seeing as he has a flat +13 init mod.
If we're talking PF though, a divination wizard's level 1 ability would give the level 20 wizard to not only gain a +10 to their initiative mod but also assume the roll is a Natural 20 as well.
>Keep in mind that this is a build that was made to break Beastmas, which is soloing a Shoggoth, Balor, Pit Fiend, Tarn Linnorm, Ancient Gold Dragon, Solar and a Tarrasque in two days with only one rest.
Doesn't matter when all the wizard has to do is gate them to the plane of positive energy so they eventually explode from being overhealed and shit.

>>51589402
If the lead itself is enchanted, I don't think it would block itself. I'd just do a different metal for the ring itself that's enchanted, then plate it with lead to hide it.

>>51589400
No I default to killing everyone who attacks me or assumes an aggressive position towards me while having enough power to threaten my life. Which is exactly the moment I will care about if my enemy has spell turning or not.

If it is a friendly spat I won't cast any direct spells at all relying only on indirect ones to affect the outcome. It is just more polite.

Doesn't mean I won't use some type of scrying or other ways of gathering information to make sure that my comrades are really my comrades and not assassins trying to kill me.

>>51589422
>You have to show that spells and class features are part of a character's statistics.
I mean you've got the entirety of the internet along with the devs of the system and all of the games based off of D&D that seems to agree that's how it functions.

>>51589414

>You've got an entire thread proving you wrong and you've yet to deliver on anything that backs up your statement.
>The ball is in your court, bucko.
I've pointed out that nowhere in the rules does it say simulacrums get spells.
Your argument was that the devs said they do, but then you posted a tweet completely demolishing your own argument.

>>oh shit, the tweet actually backs up what he was saying.
>>I KNOW, I'LL PULL IT OUT OF CONTEXT
But it was your posting of the context that showed you were wrong.
You're not even engaging anything I'm saying, you're just flailing around and shitposting.
I keep making points, and instead of addressing them, you just circle back to things you've said already and what amounts to "no u!"

>>51589422
Let's look at it this way then if you just want to pass the ball back to me:

If I cast a simulacrum, the simulacrum becomes an entity with a level. This level is a fraction of my level (or in 5e, exactly my level, doesn't really matter).

Given that this entity is a COPY of me, using my hair as a material component, what class would this entity be?

If it is a wizard as I am, it stands to reason it possesses spell slots and other STATISTICS associated with me.

Once again the only thing the spell description explicitly mentions is reduced hit points, in all other ways it is a direct copy of you.

I fucking hate D&D simply because it encourages the kind of rules-lawyer behavior you see in this thread.

>>51589449
>party member casually walks up, is wearing a new magic item
>IT'S COMING RIGHT FOR ME PEW PEW
>implying there are no ways to counter scrying

>>51585494
By beating the faggot player black and blue, then taking his lunch money. Remind him why caster supremacy was a thing. :^)

>>51589452

Show me where the devs say that a creatures prepared spells are part of its statistics.
Then, RAW, simulacrums will be broken and I will shut up.
I'd prefer an official source, because otherwise it isn't RAW, but whatever.
Another anon tried posting a tweet for something related, but when he noticed it contradicted him, he threw a fit.

>>51589429
Gate doesn't work like that anon.

>>51589429
Just an FYI, the build is equipped with a ring of counterspell if that wasn't clear.
As I stated before, it's build to break Beastmas. A Solar has vastly stronger spellcasting capabilities than a wizard.

>Gear (880,000gp): belt of physical perfection+6 & dwarvenkind (166,350gp, 1lb), tome of wisdom+4 (expended, 110,000gp), manual of strength+4 (expended, 110,000gp), manual of dexterity+4 (expended, 110,000gp), composite merciful str24 longbow+5 (73,100gp, 3lb, hardness 15, hp55), vest of armour+8 (64,000gp, 1lb), ring of protection+5 & counterspells (56,000gp; greater dispel 660gp), headband of wis+6 and int+2 (Know: Planar, 42,000gp, 1lb), ring of evasion & counterspells (31,000gp; greater dispel 660gp), greater bracers of archery (25,000gp), cloak of resistance+5 (25,000gp, 1lb), luckstone (20,000gp), broom of flying (17,000gp, 3lb), boots of speed (12,000gp, 1lb), bottle of air (7250gp, 1lb), ioun stone+1 armour (5000gp), eyes of the eagle (2500gp), handy haversack (2000gp, 5lb), 2 ioun torches (150gp), mwk backpack (50gp, 4lb), 300 arrows (15gp, 45lb), cold iron knuckle (2gp, 1lb), 2 weapon cords, 7gp
Entire loadout gear-wise for it.

>>51589327
From PF Core Rulebook: "You can always act in the surprise round."
Doesn't say you can't be surprised or that you are permitted to interrupt an attacker's action. Fighter grapples to stuff wiz into the sack then move action to throw him into the hole, then ends his turn. Wiz is screwed.

>>51589461
>cast simulacrum
>copy is now a copy of you, including the used spell slot for simulacrum
No decent dm will let you infinitely clone yourself the way you want to

>>51589491
>All this money on magic items when you could instead buy a colossus mount to ride in absolute style
I mean, your build is effective as shit, but I still would prefer to pilot the iron giant

>>51589416
>Time Stop
>Teleport
>Mage's Magnificent Mansion
Then you'll just never hear from me again. You win.

>>51589501
I didn't say I got the spell slot for simulacrum back, all I said was the simulacrum I made is able to cast spells. The general interpretation of this is that the simulacrum gains all of my prepared spells, except the one used to create it which is an expended spell slot.

Don't try to dodge my argument, address the rest of the post.

>>51589471
>Party member rolls bluff to walk casually initiating PVP in case of success wizard doesn't see anything wrong
Can easily fail due to wizard relying more on skills or having say Item Familiar with Sense Motive.

>It's coming right for me
If the Bluff fails wizard will teleport further away and first try to try and get a reason why party member is so tense and aggressive towards him.

>implying there are no ways to counter scrying
You always use at least three different ways to confirm information. Three is the magical number.

Overall a rogue travelling with wizard, if he knows his crafted contingencies and has special weapons, has a small chance to pull it off but preparation is again the key here.

>>51589501
Of course no DM will allow it, doesn't change that by RAW that is how it functions.
Simply due to what the other anon pointed out in that Simulacrum is written with a specific.
The specific being that they cannot regain expended spell slots.

If they had to be specific that they cannot regain expended spellslots, this means that they had to have spellslots to start off with.
No other spell has this caveat, and you don't see fighters with the caveat of "can't regain expended spellslots" despite them not having spellslots to begin with.

Just saying "oh it must be a typo" clearly doesn't work either since they've released a ton of erratas already and none of them adressed this.

>>51589505
To be honest man, so would I.
Build is mainly just to buttfuck everything in the system, an exercise in the obscene to be fair.

Would get the job done, albeit with a bit less flair than a goddamn iron giant rider.

>>51589461

>If I cast a simulacrum, the simulacrum becomes an entity with a level.
This is debatable in 5e since level in certain cases isn't a statistic, but whatever.

>This level is a fraction of my level (or in 5e, exactly my level, doesn't really matter).
It does matter, because arguing about 2 different spells at the same time is pointless,
and in 3.5 a simulacrum of yourself won't be a high enough level to access the spell anyway.
Also, the spell has an xp cost in 3.5, and simulacrum does not specify that the illusions it makes have xp.

>Given that this entity is a COPY of me, using my hair as a material component, what class would this entity be?
Like I said, it might not have a class. It might just be a leveled creature.

>If it is a wizard as I am, it stands to reason it possesses spell slots and other STATISTICS associated with me.
"It stands to reason" is weasel talk for RAI

>Once again the only thing the spell description explicitly mentions is reduced hit points, in all other ways it is a direct copy of you.
Nope. Go read the spell again.

>>51589499
>Fighter grapples
Freedom of Movement
Mist Form
Misty Step
etc.
That's also not even getting into a Fighter who grapples in the first place. Like wow dude, there are so many ways to suck dick as a martial and you go for the grand prize?

>>51589518
different anon, dipshit. you fuckers can't keep track of who your talking to for jack

>>51589532

>If they had to be specific that they cannot regain expended spellslots, this means that they had to have spellslots to start off with.
>No other spell has this caveat, and you don't see fighters with the caveat of "can't regain expended spellslots" despite them not having spellslots to begin with.

Not the guy you replied to, but this is NOT a RAW argument, this is a RAI argument.
Inferring information based on what seems most logical to you is not RAW.

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>>51589355
>Bad news anon, you fail your perception check to identify satire. You embarrass yourself publicly as a result.

>>51589563
>Not the guy you replied to, but this is NOT a RAW argument, this is a RAI argument.

But anon,
>nor can it regain expended spell slots.
It is RAW within the ruling. The simulacrum is a perfect duplicate of you except having half health.

>>51589575
>I-I-It was a social experiment
This is what you sound like anon, just give it up.

>>51589523
>Can easily fail due to wizard relying more on skills or having say Item Familiar with Sense Motive.
what was that about making assumptions, faggot? and you also conveniently forget that items can be used to increase bluff, make rerolls, etc.
>If the Bluff fails
dem assumptions durr
>You always use at least three different ways to confirm information
so far you've named scry and sense motive, both of which are easy to overcome. what's the third? or hell, name more, so I can point out exactly how those are overcome too

>>51589557
>I'm upset people don't immediately recognise who's talking on anonymous image board
Ok?

>>51589542
>It does matter, because arguing about 2 different spells at the same time is pointless,
>and in 3.5 a simulacrum of yourself won't be a high enough level to access the spell anyway.
>Also, the spell has an xp cost in 3.5, and simulacrum does not specify that the illusions it makes have xp.
That's fine, we'll keep it narrow to 5e since the previous editions have hard examples of simulacra possessing spells.

>Like I said, it might not have a class. It might just be a leveled creature.
Not having a class on a spell which explicitly copies a creature seems like a bizarre interpretation of the wording, especially given previous iterations of the spell duplicate class.

>Nope. Go read the spell again.
Sure
>It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.
>The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities, nor can it regain expended spell slots.
Looks like the only stat it explicitly mentions is HP. XP being an obvious side effect of it being a temporary creation.

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Okay, you want to kill a 20th level wizard. Fine.

Here are the Rules For Killing High Level Wizards.

1: Divination Spells have Saves.
Scrying has a save. Unless the wizard nows you really well or has a part of your body, at high levels if you have a high will save, he will not be able to scry on you. Scrying creates a detectable sensor as well, so do a thorough check of the area. If he has Foresight, he cannot be surprised or caught flat footed, so assume this is the case and don't concern yourself with the surprise round. Note that it does not mean he goes first.

2: Divination spells require The Right Question.
The other type of divination is always assumed to work by /tg/ because of metaknolwedge. In truth, the wizard literally has to ask exactly the right question. Contact Other Plane gives him 10 questions, assuming he contacts the correct planar entity. "Who is coming to kill me today?" is a great question, and it risks a 12% chance of insanity and int/cha loss for 5 weeks. How desperate is your wizard to know who is planning to assassinate him? The other thing is, all that does is let him prepare spells agaisnt that one individual. If you start people thinking about who is coming to kill him - i.e. offer a huge bounty in a major cities, or better yet, several planar cities such as Sigil, the city of Brass, and Mezzoberanzan, then the answers he will receive will be absolutely ludicrous and not really help him against YOU.

3: Spells have Areas of Effect.
Everyone knows that sleep and color spray end every encounter at low levels instantly, right? Not if the orcs and goblins are spread out in a circle around the mage. Most multi-target spells at high level have huge areas of effect, but almost all of them require the targets be within 30' of one another, or be in a given area of effect. Don't clump up, and don't be 30' close to each other.

con't.

>>51589591

You're not listening to me.
Just because the rules say that someone cannot regain expended spell slots does NOT
by RAW mean that they have them.
It means by RAI they have them, certainly, but not RAW.

For example, if you looked up a dire rat or whatever, and it had that exact same passage in there, it would not mean, by RAW, that dire rats have spell slots.

You need to understand the fundamental difference between RAW and RAI

>>51589543

For reference, the post that inspired this >>51589327 anon's comment about PF diviner, >>51589269 assumed that the victim was sleeping.
Which begs the question why would there be a freedom of movement effect active? If there is why are you still at my table you filthy munchkin?

>>51589617

You haven't really done anything to refute the argument here.
Also for a new angle, the rules don't say that simulacra also have spell slots prepared when created.
Nor is there any reason to assume they do, since there is nothing in the rules which supports creatures (illusions or otherwise) being created with spells already prepared.
They don't have spell books either.

>>51589640

>It appears to be the same as the original
>the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates.
>The DUPLICATE is a creature
Duplicate; a copy exactly like an original: to make an exact copy of.
>nor can it regain expended spell slots

These are the main points which points heavily towards simulacrums acting like perfect copies of you besides the specified health difference.

>>51585494
Targeted soft drink spill to the character sheet.

>>51589668

But we know that they are not exact copies of you (excluding hp) by just reading the rules.

>>51589592
>>51589575
>>51589411

>I-I-I'm a troll!

That's what all three of you faggots sound like, now shut the fuck up and stop feeding each other you knuckle-dragging, basement dwelling, cucks!

>>51589685
But that is what they are describing it to be.
We cannot "know" anything when the exact word they're using is "duplicate" which does in fact mean an exact copy of whatever you cast it on.

>>51589616
>what was that about making assumptions, faggot?
If we don't make any assumptions you need to kill wizard in one round while denying him immediate actions or he will kill you. And after that you need to hunt down his clones or stop whatever other way he is securing his life - and this moment is rarely told to anyone no matter how close to wizard.

>so far you've named scry and sense motive, both of which are easy to overcome. what's the third?
-Scrying
-Sense Motive
-Gather Information
-Spying familiars or creatures
-Paying people to track comrades past
-Contact other Plane (not the most reliable but as a secondary is nice)
-Actually asking questions of your comrade while explicitly stating that you want to do it in a Zone of Truth. And allowing him to ask questions back.

>>51589666
>Also for a new angle, the rules don't say that simulacra also have spell slots prepared when created.
>Nor is there any reason to assume they do, since there is nothing in the rules which supports creatures (illusions or otherwise) being created with spells already prepared.
I was wondering when you'd choose that argument, I'm fine with you interpreting the rules as them having unprepared spell slots when created as long as you acknowledge they possess spell slots empty or otherwise.

Them not having spell books is a pretty moot point since they can just share the original casters so who cares.

While I didn't explicitly refute your argument I gave you examples of how it functioned previously and context for why I believe your argument to be an inappropriate interpretation of the text.

My argument isn't that the rules EXPLICITLY state that simulacra have spell slots, much the same as yours isn't that the rules EXPLICITLY state they don't. It is that the most straightforward interpretation of the rules is that they do have spell slots (filled or otherwise).

For your way to work we must make at least one logical leap (duplicates levels but not class, which you yourself acknowledge is a strange case of splitting level from class), my way just goes with the spirit of the spell and the most simple interpretation of the text.

>>51589698

Duplicate does not mean in the context of the rules that it copies every single aspect of your character.
By that logic, when you make duplicates with mirror image, (and yes, it uses the word duplicates)
those illusions are just like you, and can cast sells and whatever other nonsense.

>>51585494
In during OP is that guy trying to do evil fuck things in a high level campaign and the parties beatstick told him to Fuck off with his edgy shit.

>>51589711
2bh your post was really boring and mostly not worth replying to.

>Them not having spell books is a pretty moot point since they can just share the original casters so who cares.
Is this still a thing in 5e? Using a spellbook that isn't yours?
I checked my phb again and didn't see it.

>>51589634
4: Monk.
Monks have all good saves and spell resistance. Yes, casters have ways around spell resistance, but assuming they always win is stupid on your part. The two most important factors a monk has going for him is he relies very little on magic items, and he can inflict a fort-save based stun or paralysis effect. Assuming the cater has freedom of movement, stun is always a good effect - and so is staggering him. Dimensional Assault means you get to be well over 1000' way for the first round of combat and then be right there for the one punch it takes to take him out of the fight - even if he has contingency.

5: Contingency, or "how to make the wizard go away".
Contingency is a brilliant spell. It's perfect. And 9 times out of 10, the wording is "when I am attacked..." and the usual clause is "teleport me to X." Which is fine - he's gone. LEAVE. Don't stick around. Incidentally, this requires the caster to be aware of the attack - even if he isn't surprised (a la foresight) an attack he is not aware of can still land and inflict damage. Poison is your best friend. This also means spells cast on him without his awareness will trigger the contingency AFTER the spell takes effect (because it's not an attack if it never happens - just make sure you have still, silent spells and aren't in plain sight).

6: Inevitables, Devels, and Angels.
If your caster is a really smart caster, chances are hes used the Planar Binding Spell or abused some laws of the universe, like gaining immortality or creating planar anomalies by casting Gate or making mass simulacra. Petition the Higher Courts (or Lower Ones). Inform the Inevitables or the Aeons (PF balance-based outsiders). If you deal with devils, bribe the infernal courts to look into him, make him a problem for them. Take advantage of their interference and wreck his tower, invade his private space, or let them deal with him.

7: Mage's Disjunction
Seriously, if you have a monk and use this he's fucked.

>>51589749
senpai you're arguing about the minutiae of dnd on a thai fly-fishing forum, its ok if you don't have an argument just admit you're wrong

>>51589517
>Cast Geas/Quest, Silent and Still Spell with 8th level spell slot.
>"You may not cast any spells under any circumstances."
>Beat wizard to death with mace.

>>51589751
8: If hes such a great caster, why is he hanging around you anyways?
Seriously, if you need to kill your 20th level wizard, you need to walk away from the player. If he's such a gigantic douchetard that you need to kill his character, then something else is the problem.

9: The Final Option
Convince the most powerful dragon in the universe (minimum CR 24) that the wizard player is plotting to kill him. You have to make it very good convincing, and if you manage it, the character is fucking dead. You may also expect to die as well.

>>51589782

I read the first few sentences, realized it was all the same sophistry I've seen before and tuned it out.
So anyway I take it you were wrong about the spell books?
If you're not, I'd like a page number or quote.

>>51588945
It does. Antimagic Field does not even specify that it penetrates barriers, unlike similar spells, so it doesn't even have to be lead.

>>51589703
>-Scrying
magic items
>-Sense Motive
bluff, or like has already been suggested, have yourself mind controlled to believe your own lies up until a certain point
>gather information
several things wrong with this. it's not a class skill, for one, unless you blow a feat or something to make it one. Using it involves going around and talking to people. Gonna do zone of truth on every single one? I doubt you'd have enough spell slots. Even if you did, you have know way of knowing if they are believing false information.
>-Paying people to track comrades past
That would fall under "gather information", and if not, why would you be doing that to any specific person without good reason?
>-Contact other Plane (not the most reliable but as a secondary is nice)
see >>51589634.
>-Actually asking questions of your comrade while explicitly stating that you want to do it in a Zone of Truth. And allowing him to ask questions back.
How are you ever able to do anything else when you are constantly wasting spells on Zone of Truth for no discernible reason? also, that's been covered, you can have someone else cast a mind altering effect on you to make you believe you are not there to kill them until you are absolutely certain the wizard believes so too.

>>51589806

>It does.
Nope.

>Antimagic Field does not even specify that it penetrates barriers, unlike similar spells, so it doesn't even have to be lead.
Wrong.

>>51589808
Zone of Truth being a CLERIC spell might also limit his capability there. That's why Divination spell wasn't considered in the 'how to kill a wizard' blerbs - wizards don't get it.

>>51589820
>Nope.
Nope.

>Wrong.
Wrong.

I can do that, too.
Are you going to make an actual point now?

>>51589801
I don't have a reference for using other wizards spell books, it always was that way so I don't see why it would change. Also a duplicate of you should be able to use your spellbook, that's just common sense.

Also calling my post sophistry without refuting anything is silly and you should feel silly.

>>51589852

I'm not sure what you get out of deliberately posting obviously incorrect information on the internet super early on a monday morning.

>>51589808
>magic items
Good. Means less resources for actual killing.
>bluff, or like has already been suggested, have yourself mind controlled to believe your own lies up until a certain point
It should be mind control without time limit (permanent) or wizard will notice the active effect.
>Using it involves going around and talking to people. Gonna do zone of truth on every single one?
No crossreference. You gather enough data to make improbable for most of it to be false. Wizard can do it through summoned creatures, simulacrums or constructs.
>why would you be doing that to any specific person without good reason?
I have a good reason - I'm a 20 level wizard going on a dangerous venture with unknown people. I either need to have information about them and they about me so that we can trust each other or I'll need to always assume possibility of betrayal on their part. No casual walking up to the wizard in the second variant.
>How are you ever able to do anything else when you are constantly wasting spells on Zone of Truth for no discernible reason?
I "waste" it on people that I will spend a lot of time with and who supposedly should have my back while I'll be doing some reality rending magic. I won't go on such a quest without being sure that they are trustworthy.

And again mind altering magic must have permanent duration for wizard to have no chance of noticing it.

>>51589844
If I can't find a cleric to cast a Zone of Truth while gathering the party I'm not a 20 level wizard. I'm a newt.

>>51589654
The diviner's power also makes it so that the user cannot be surprised, even if they're sleeping. So the Fighter tries to grapple them only to find out that the Wizard already saw him coming from a mile away and took the steps necessary to avoid it.

Also, when you're dealing with level 20 characters, the whole munchkin thing doesn't really hold quite as much water.

>>51589869
I'm not sure what you get out of deliberately denying obviously correct information on the internet just before noon.

>>51589789
You'd have to win initiative first.

>>51589859

>I don't have a reference for using other wizards spell books, it always was that way so I don't see why it would change.
"I don't read the rules"

>Also a duplicate of you should be able to use your spellbook, that's just common sense.
Aside from "common sense" not being an argument,
simulacrums can't use any spellbook, because they can't regain used spell slots.

>Also calling my post sophistry without refuting anything is silly and you should feel silly.
I'd feel silly if I had replied to the exact same non arguments yet again.
And like I said, it's boring.

>>51589892

Well, I guess you got me to reply.

>>51589882
>white room theorycrafting
If all things are allowed there is absolutely nothing preventing a dimensional assault monk from making the one attack he needs and hitting the wizard with quivering palm and killing him after his contingency teleports him home.

finding others to do your work for you - including summoned creatures (which incidentally has to be through Planar Binding which means making deals and spending monies or you will get fucked by the planar creatures' owners and dieties) relies on GM handng you the information, and also relies on THOSE creatures using their much lower gather information skill checks.

>>51589883
>not surprised
>unhittable
>going first
>being prepared
These things are not the same.

>>51589898
I don't want to comb through the phb pdf for a reference on wizards using other peoples spell books when it's not relevant.

>I'd feel silly if I had replied to the exact same non arguments yet again.
>And like I said, it's boring.
Now I see why the other guy got tired of replying to you, when you see an argument you can't answer, even when I give you a way out built into it, you just stubbornly call it not a real argument.

You run your games how you like, with simulacrums doing nothing, meanwhile I will run them the way they are intended and the way the rest of the world including the developers do. Godbless.

>>51589938

I know you don't want to actually read the rule book, you don't need to keep reminding me.

I actually read your whole post this time, and it was actually pretty funny.
Gave me an ironic chuckle.
You're right in the butter zone of no self awareness.

>>51589938
In 3.5 and PF you can use other people's spell books as long as you have read magic, can understand the spell (Spellcraft check successful) and can cast spells of that level.

The whole thing about simulacrums casting spells is rediculous, because if it is created with your knowledge and casting ability it can't have the Simulacrum Spell memorized, as you just used it, and it can't memorize new spells. Even if it can, the amount of ruby dust you need is prohibative.

If you stal all the rubies in the world, some deity is going to notice and smite your ass.

>>51589876
>Good. Means less resources for actual killing.
because resources are so scarce at level 20?
>It should be mind control without time limit (permanent) or wizard will notice the active effect.
Geas/quest lasts 1 day/caster level, or until discharged, which can be commanded to under a specific circumstance. The wizard won't detect anything more than a moderate strength (4th-6th level) Enchantment magic. Not to mention any character of high enough level will already be decked out in magic equipment, which can end up skewing everything.
>No crossreference. You gather enough data to make improbable for most of it to be false.
Unless what most people believe is indeed false, or if that information is even available at all. probably the least reliable way out of all of them
>I have a good reason - I'm a 20 level wizard going on a dangerous venture with unknown people.
Never said it was an unknown person. more assumptions on your part. even if it was, they could still be under their own a geas/quest of their own volition, and it not where off until the appropriate time.
>I "waste" it on people that I will spend a lot of time with and who supposedly should have my back while I'll be doing some reality rending magic. I won't go on such a quest without being sure that they are trustworthy.
Yeah, can't believe I overlooked this. what >>51589844 said, HOW would a wizard cast Zone of Truth again?

>And again mind altering magic must have permanent duration for wizard to have no chance of noticing it.
And again, look at how detect magic works. You can only tell a 3 level range and the school of the magic, not the specific spell itself, and it can be covered up by higher level magic of the same school.

>>51589894
i like it.

>>51589882
>plot twist: the cleric is in on it too

>>51589922
There is ways to gather information about high level characters but to make them more reliable you need to basically assume possibility of immediate combat with them in case they are actually not that trustworthy. Legend Lore combined with mutual Detect Thoughts (Throw in Arcane Sight for good measure) should cover most bases. Problem is in case you don't like what you see you will need to kill the one you are talking to on the spot because now he probably knows too much.

Depending on quest at hand that may be okay. Most world saving plots.

>>51590015
assuming there is anything in that character's past to determine if he's specifically going to kill you in the first place, and hasn't already spread false rumors about himself.

>>51590015
>more white room theorycraft
In my experince, the best way to kill a wizard is by helping him get to the BBEG and then lettign him take it on all on his lonesome.

Because a CR 24 creature is a tough fight for 4 or 5 level 20's - and it's likely a full spellcaster with every trick and power the wizard has already used...except the monster is prepared specifically for that wizard now.

>>51589989
>because resources are so scarce at level 20?
For non-full spellcasters? Yes.
>The wizard won't detect anything more than a moderate strength (4th-6th level) Enchantment magic.
Arcane Sight, Greater during first meeting covers that base.
>Unless what most people believe is indeed false, or if that information is even available at all. probably the least reliable way out of all of them
Moves character firmly into rogue or rogue related classes. And even than at 20 level it is highly unlikely. You need to do some crazy shit to get there.
>And again, look at how detect magic works.
Arcane Sight, Greater covers this.

> HOW would a wizard cast Zone of Truth again?
In case I don't have time to find a cleric, don't have an item and can't summon someone who can cast such a spell I can still use mutual Detect Thoughts as a substitute. Though I will need to be ready for immediate combat in that case because there is no hiding information with this spell unlike with Zone of Truth. Epic bluff can fool it but in this case opposing character is so specialised he is not that much danger in combat and will have a hard time killing a wizard.

>>51590033
>>51590050
Detect Thoughts works regardless of characters past. Legend Lore is still a good way to comb the world instead of Gather Information. Spreading false rumours is a lot of work and assumes pretty specialised character.

>>51589869
Blocking LOS = blocking effect = not happening. AMFs work by the same rules everything else does and nothing you can say will change that.

There is an actual feat that allows you to cast in an AMF, anyways.

>>51590110
Except it has a will save and only detects surface thoughts, as opposed to future plans and current considerations. And trying to use it on a character near your own level is ludicrous.

>>51590110
You can't think of any way to protect against Mind Affecting spells?

>>51590110
>spreading false rumors is a lot of work
Yes, but it doesn't need to be done by one person. It's the best use of leadership.

It doesn't assume a specialized character in the slightest. You can pay entire towns of people to do that kind of work at the level you're playing at. Renting mercenaries to do your dirty work has been a staple of the spy business for centuries.

>>51590135
That's why it is mutual. You both agree to use it on each other and to do it willingly. Being hostile to potential comrade is not a good way to work with him.

Surface thoughts is more than enough to pull out relevant information during question/answer session face to face.

Use Probe Thoughts if you want to be a dick.

>>51590146
I can, but only Epic Bluff allows you to actually fool the spell which is needed if both wizard and other character agree to mutual Detect Thoughts session.

>>51590071
>For non-full spellcasters? Yes.
No, unless 3.5 has a "more money for nothing" spell I don't know about, 2 characters of equal level will have roughly the same amount of money. In fact, the wizard would be more hard up on it if making their own magic items.
>Arcane Sight, Greater during first meeting covers that base.
>Detect Thoughts
hmm, if only there were an item that could be enchanted with a spell to counter that, like some sort of... NONDETECTION

>>51590152
>You can pay entire towns of people to do that kind of work at the level you're playing at.
And even shitty summon will be able to see through their lies. That's why I say you need at least 3 different ways to confirm information.

Not much you can do vs a caster.

However, unless the DM allows custom items of faggotry (this is my monocle of +99 to spot, etc), wizards can't usually compare to the spot checks skillmonkeys can get. Contrast this with in Pathfailure, where they are only down 3 or so points usually.

Hover lets you kick up dust clouds to make it so they can't use targeting spells and a tower shield makes it so they can't use AoE spells (til they break the tower, which is not very easy).

>>51590154
>anyone trusting a wizard to cast anything on them
>trusting the wizard to let a spell be used on him
>expecting trustworthy results
Uh huh.

>>51590172
>hmm, if only there were an item that could be enchanted with a spell to counter that, like some sort of... NONDETECTION
Hmm. if only wizard actually had brains. Maybe then he won't work with people who don't want to try and build a normal working relationships where people can trust each other.

I just wouldn't travel with such a person unless there is absolutely no other way. But in this case forget about casually walking up to wizard.

>>51590173
>have someone cast Geas/Quest on you
>believe that you are on a Geas/Quest to find magic item, and need wizard's help to get to it
>the true quest is to get to a certain point with the wizard where the trap for him is set.

>>51590185
So no trust. No group. No casually walking up to wizard. People use different methods to secure their rest. Constantly spy on each other. Never let their guard down.

In this case I actually will cast a deadly spell on someone trying to walk up to me.

>>51590190
Right, because anyone and everyone would just let a crazy wizard cast a spell on them and not resist the save out of trust.

>>51590172
I prefer Mislead, because then they get a reading that is entirely falsified rather than a non-reading - works best if the subject of the mislead spell is aware of it so they can emulate you in the most important ways.

>>51590192
So now it's not the character who wants to kill the wizard but another wizard who uses the character as a pawn ?

That I can believe in.

>>51590182
Depends on the actual caster build.

You build a caster, I can come up with ways to hamstring it. Might take time, money, and effort, but there is no suh thing as an unwinnable scenario - even if you force him to hide forever in his Magnificent Mansion or in his Demiplane, that's still a win for me.

>>51590210
No you give them the scroll first and allow them to cast Detect Thoughts on you and fail save. Than you cast Detect Thoughts on them.

>>51590218
Or writing out their own commands, and pay a wizard to cast the spell on them to obey what's on the paper. The other wizard could just be one selling their magical service and gives no fucks about the target.
>>51590211
even better.

>>51589869
It's not obviously incorrect. It depends on the qualities of the spell.

As it happens, Antimagic Field is an emanation, so the lead cone trick does work just fine.

>>51589876
>must have permanent duration
Wrong, the spell must be instantaneous. A spell with permanent duration can still be dispelled, detected etc.

>>51590231
>implying a wizard can't falsify the results of a 2nd level spell undetectably
See, this whole "trust the wizard" aspect just isn't doing it for me.

>>51590201
And this is why people want wizards dead.

See how this works?

>>51590239
Except emanations go around corners - it's bursts which do not.

>>51590254
>>51590261
So no trust again no casually walking up to wizard. We have returned to premise of killing semi-hostile wizard with unknown spell loadout that won't hesitate to kill you if you so much as suspiciously sniff in his direction.

>>51590245
Sorry yes. Messed up.

Geas definitely is not that.

>>51590272
Which is where number 8 happens.

You don't work with wizards you don't know, and if you need to kill him when he's already in your party, then he's not expecting it from you to begin with, or you'd already be dead.

Geas/Quest + misdirection
"oh, he's got Greater Heroism on"

Thanks for letting me know about Extraordinary Spell Aim, guys. Archmage is a BITCH.

>>51590299
If he is already in your party and doesn't suspect anything he is a retard incapable of doing simplest of logical inductions. Basically one that can't even imagine that his actions can lead to some undesirable results or that someone can not like them.

That's not even sociopathy. That's clear stupidity on cosmic level.

>>51590315
>good choices in life
>using cosmic power with restraint and understanding
>actually being aware of the results of his activities aside from the ones he desires or the failure of same
>sense motive
>wis based
Or he's not paying attention, which is really likely for casters. A capable caster=/=wise caster, and usually it means the opposite.

>>51590349
I at least expect some self-preservation. Though I was shown a couple of times before that it is too much to ask.

Like this one time when some creature were crying and howling in the woods and all party decided to stay clear of it. The rogue decided to be most brave and take a peek. So he met a dire wolf alone.

>>51585494
With the shit below:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=6093655&postcount=1

>>51588572
That's why magic sword traps your soul in time-frozen state instead of killing the body.
That only happens on 14th Wetmonth if it is wielded by a 5 foot tall redhead. Noone will know that until it's too late for you. Never mess with high fantasy MC. Never.

File: anti_fun.png (249KB, 1200x1000px) Image search: [Google]

249KB, 1200x1000px

>>51585494
use something with magic immunity, that can also blink after him.

>>51585831
Underrated post.

>>51585494
My ranger just used pin grenades and poisoned smoke from stealth.

No preparing outside of making the items. And he used them on everyone

With suprise, from a great distance, before he can react. Since you probably don't have a 50 Cal sniper rifle use a big ass crossbow. Shoot them when they aren't looking and don't expect it. Fragile man dies before he can get off his spells. Ta da.

This thread has just convinced me to use even more clones, I'll just start shitting out clones on a demiplane

>>51590267
>>51590132
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

Seems like it doesn't actually go through objects so the magic hat trick works

>>51589894
Why would you have to win initiative? Why not just

>Enter same tavern as Wizard/Target
>Begin silently casting spell without moving
>Wizard has no idea he's in danger
>Ten minutes later, declare yourself victorious.

>>51589883
>The diviner's power also makes it so that the user cannot be surprised, even if they're sleeping.

Mmm'kay. You're just making shit up now, I have the book right in front of me and PF RAW says:

>Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action. In addition you receive a bonus on initiative checks equal to 1/3 your wizard level (minimum +1). At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20.

Nothing and nowhere does it indicate that you're prescient, all-knowing or in any other way incapable of being surprised.

>>51585494
Find some devils and trick him into trading his soul. Wizards, often enough, don't need to be that wise. Magic can't save you from devil law.

>>51588915
But most wizards at that level are flying. So wouldn't that mean that you are now plummeting to your death with a few hundred pounds of lead weighing you down?

>>51592865
But epic magic can.

Don't play with epic magic.

>>51593074
Maybe as prevention, but once you lose your soul, you're done. Wizards, typically being eternally greedy for more power shouldn't be too hard to trick into a bad deal. Sure, they can detect magic and identify the devil. Sure, they'll be paranoid. But that alone might not stop them from trading their soul for yet more power.

Have a zen level technician ninja with nemesis and ki.

>>51588611
Conan beats lvl 20 wizards on a regular basis, dude. Which is something that bugs me about wizard wankers, seeing how as Conan remains one of the biggest inspirations for DnD, yet caster supremacy is a thing.

Learn the damn source material.

>>51593235
Level 20 wizards are already the most powerful beings on the material plane that aren't deities though, he'd have no reason to sell his soul because he has already achieved the highest level that his class allows.

>>51591958
Because a) Clerics are kinda noticeable and b) a Cleric that's just standing around without moving or saying a word is even more suspicious.

Not to mention, a level 20 wizard could probably just build a demi-plane that houses its own tavern if he really wanted to.

>>51593306
That's exactly my point. He can go no farther on his own. If told that he can go yet farther by making a deal, he might consider it. The wizard doesn't *need* more power. He *wants* it.

Contrary to popular belief, Wizards in anything resembling active play lack either the ability or inclination to prepare for everything Spell slots are finite and frankly you just cover, at best, a couple of your most common banes and/or a couple of the worst.

>Know your foe
Information is critical. With a powerful wizard more than ever, you want to be able to predict the actions they're capable of.

>Antimagic Field
As far as I am aware (see earlier arguments re:feats) there is only one way to actually remove an antimagic field: Disjunction, with % success chance equal to caster level. And even then I believe you need to not be inside the AMF to disjoin it.

>Schmuck Bait
OK, let's skip to the point where you have wizard bait -- the friend, family member, or item that the wizard will go out of his way to reacquire. You want to be (or hire) a psion for this one, ideally with non-transparency between psionics and magic. Your bait is going to be housed in a demiplane of your own creation. Demiplanes created by the Genesis power (or spell) can have basically any planar trait.

Like Antimagic/null magic.

At this point, you just need to get the wizard in. He can even planeshift in. If you raze the entry portal (via contingency?) or if the stupid thing just has an obnoxiously unavailable portal key, you've created a magic-user roach motel: Wizard checks in, he can't check out. You don't even need to kill him, you can just let thirst, starvation, or time (depending on what's available in your demiplane) do the job. Or you could make it Major Negative Dominant as well. The biggest, most important part of this trick is knowing what divinations the wizard will be able to access, so that the wizard can get in but won't know the nature of the trap you intend to spring. (1/??)

>>51593282
>Conan beats lvl 20 wizards on a regular basis, dude.
Not really. IIRC, Conan was imagined as a level 10 character originally and most wizards in Conan used spells that required hours/days worth of prep, a virgin sacrifice, and the cooperation between several other wizards to call upon whatever nightmare monster they needed to pull off the effect.

By contrast, a level 20 caster can time stop+gate anything standing in his way yet still have more than enough firepower to SoL/SoD anything that wasn't stopped by the gate.

The only D&D editions that I can say were similar to Conan were the editions before 3.PF, and that's because mages actually had limits and weaknesses that prevented them from becoming too powerful.

>>51593370
I agree, the system has lost sight of it's roots and gotten to the point of ridiculous favoritism.

>>51593336
The thing is, the wizard would know that once you've gained level 9 spells, that's it. Even then, why would he take a deal from a devil when he has enough power to force the devil to do whatever the hell he wants for free thanks to liberal uses of mind-altering spells and spells meant to trap outsiders until their deed is done?

Continued From >>51593359

You could also try to provoke a fight at the base of the Spire, but since a simple Knowledge: the Planes trick could then reveal the conditions of the fight, you'd have to be prepared for whatever constructs and/or mercenary fiends the Wizard brings or sends in on his side, or the wizard simply refusing to take the bait. (In fact, much of the Outlands locks off upper-level magic, so could provide an equalizing force without necessarily setting off too many alarm bells.)

>The Juggernaut, bitch!
Behold, perhaps the most fantastically incorrect challenge rating that ever made it to print. Juggernauts (MM2) have shockingly fantastic offensive power, and their primary weakness is their overall lack of hit points. Those hp, though, are fantastically well insulated against magic with numerous energy immunities and Spell Resistance of 36 (Hard to beat) to help shrug rogue Disintegrates. Fortifying them against remaining elements isn't too hard. And they come with a positively sadistic set of Spell-like abilities (albeit with an ineffectually low DC for those that feature saves). 70,000gp isn't cheap... who am I kidding at epic levels that's pocket change.

One juggernaut, especially unsupported and unadvanced, is unlikely to manage a kill on its lonesome, but they can provide a decent resource drain against even a powerful wizard or provide a decent platform on which to build your wizard-killing scheme. Especially since you can ride inside them to have a 1-way effect on the battlefield. With the right timing you could manage an Antimagic Field/Wall of Force 1-2 punch to turn the inevitable flying wizard taking potshots issue into more of a bare-handed cage match with the fucking juggernaut.

>>51588707
>the wizard fanboys will always argue from the impossible scenario
IME, that actually tends to be more the martial fanboys screaming like howler monkies about how wizards are 'unbeatable'. (And somehow they always forget that CoDzilla was always worse, because in the end their top-level problem is hating the arcane being a thing, so divine classes get a pass)

>>51589233
Because nobody wins when it comes to PvP. You're basically taking something that should be a narrative thing and turning it into a powergaming masturbation session. Whoever loses is going to be salty as an ocean, and the winner is going to be able to do whatever the fuck they want because the rest of the group aren't going to want to lose their characters.

PvP destroys games unless the DM has specifically intended for it to be a feature

>>51593452
It's even worse than that. Probably only Asmodeus can give him something that he can't beat out of someone or get in some other way. And even than it's not certain.

Eternal life? Can be achieved at medium levels.
Women ? He either wants a true love which devils will be hard pressed to provide (and selling your soul for that is kind of self-defeating) or doesn't care and can use full arsenal of his mind-altering spells.
Money ? He can swim in gold and diamonds if he so wants.
Power ? He alone can kill a medium sized army. Getting a kingdom or even starting a world domination plot is not that hard.

Things that are left are more of abstract or knowledge nature and devils can't help there because using their help defeats the very idea of such challenges.

>>51593359
>>51593544
Problem of antimagic field - you can walk out of it. So unless you also start combat in a closed space the fight will end pretty fast.

>Juggernaut
Don't make the wizard laugh. That thing loses even to Grease.

>>51593851
Monks move faster.

Monk+Disjunction (gets rid of those pesky contingencies)+Antimagic field=helpless wizard.

>>51593565
I feel like this is a symptom of these threads being shitpost extravaganza's and you're rationalizing the abject garbage to come from [thing i don't like]

rather than anyone in this thread truly giving a damn about the martial/caster power level thing, we're just here to shitpost.

>>51593970
If not for the fact that combat goes round by round. You'll need to make a specific build to be able to move out of your turn and not allow for wizard to leave the field. And this build pretty much sucks.

Monk plus disjunction+AM is either a lot of gold spent do to it in one round or you let wizard to have 1 round of actions and it is too much. And doing it in one round costs a lot. That you are a monk on top of that doesn't help. Some wizard builds will have chances to stand up to you in melee.