Why do people hate Standard so much these days?

>>51576420
Let me draft other packs too pls

Wotc trying way WAY WAAAAAAY too fucking hard to shape and craft the format into what their retarded fucking market research believes is the "ideal" "fun" play environment that casuals will enjoy and failing so miserably it's legitimately pitiful.

>>51576420
New design philosophy that anything which isn't rare or mythic has to be overcosted underwhelming dog shit. In fact most of the rares and mythics are like that too. Because "muh draft environment" so there's like a dozen playable cards and they all get crammed together in a combination or two or three different decks that dominate the format until enough of their staples rotate out.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Too much for casuals, not enough for the autismo legacy players

>>51576420

59/64 Heart of Kiran in top8 has something to do with it.

1. Pushed mythics (+their retarded prices. Wizards are well aware of this)
2. 3-4 available decks
3. MUH DRAFT ENVIRONMENT
4. Red and Blue are splash colours
5. Manabases are sacred and you can't mess with them = 3/4 colour abomination decks running rampart
6. Standard decks shouldn't cost more than 200 bucks. Now most of the good decks is in 400$ range.

>>51576420
Three reasons:

1. The rise of Hearthstone, Pokémon TCG, and EDH have taken many casual players away from Standard.

2. The price has gone way up due to Mythic Rares being a thing. Compare a $25 Ravager or Bitterblossom to a $100 JtMS or Jace Vryn's Prodigy.

3: There are no good digital platforms to playtest on. MTGO is outdated by almost 2 decades, while Cockatrice and XMage are known for their routine server crashes.

I liked mtg better when they didn't "design for standard" And just designed based on lore/flavor and interesting mechanics then let standard decks form organically

>>51576453
That's not WoTC's fault. That's SCG's fault for their massive buyout on every pre-RTR pack a few years back.

>>51576505
Yeah I never understood the logic behind WoTC's reasoning on this. Doesn't that make Sealed unplayable for anyone who doesn't get lucky and pull one of the chase cards? It essentially turns the format into a lottery where the person who pulls the most chase cards wins.

>>51576577
>4. Red and Blue are splash colours

There wasn't a single blue card in the top 8 decks

MaRo must have been so happy, he's been trying to kill Blue for years.

>>51576682
>where the person who pulls the most chase cards wins.
I disagree.
I have awful luck and still top8 pre releases making decks with almost nothing but commons and uncommons meanwhile the kids who open bomb mythics and rares don't do nearly as well because they aren't good deckbuilders.

Of course, a decent deckbuilder who opened the bomb mythic is still going to kick the good deckbuilder who didn't ass almost every time.

>>51576420
Just compare the price of Affinity to the price of Caw-Blade.

There's your answer.

>>51577684
Ok but if your LGS wasn't full of little kids and autistic mongoloids, the person who pulled the most chase mythics would almost always win the prerelease.

>>51577607
Funny that MaRO started his crusade against blue as a response tp the dominance of Caw-Blade.

Mardu Vehicles this PT was the most dominant deck since Caw-Blade, and Gideon AoZ has proven to be the single most dominant busted Mythic since JtMS.

>>51577911
>Gideon

You mean Heart of Kiran?

>>51577944
Without Gids, HoK isn't even that great. Heart is essentially to Gideon what Batterskull was to SFM.

>>51577964
The similarity is pretty much on-point, actually.

Even the cards themselves are nearly identical in their function. Both are Artifacts that function as 4/4 creatures with vigilance, only difference is Skull has Lifelink and Heart has Flying.

>>51576420
Because it's boring as fuck and you just play Black and Blue and you win by not letting your opponent play

>>51576420
My biggest issue with Mtg is that the addition of new cards is remarkably unbalanced every time they release a set. Granted, having the pool open to every set allows the turn 1 win decks to come out, but almost without exception every new set has a mechanic that was poorly play tested, is easily the most powerful mechanic in the set, and is neatly contained within one or two colors of the pie. This means, of course, that the major league players will always figure it out, and by the time finals come around, at least 5 of the top 8 will have carbon copy decks, or at the very least all use the same mechanic.

tl;dr, Mtg doesn't know how to keep the game balanced in the long run, and really fucks up in the short.

Bad answers = bad Magic

As simple as that

>>51578795
What are you talking about? Crew is the first mechanic like that since Devotion over 3 years ago.

>>51578795
>Mtg doesn't know how to keep the game balanced in the long run
legacy is pretty great from a checks-and-balances standpoint.

>>51578868
If you factor in Modern, there was Delve, too.

Mythic rares were a mistake.

>>51579233
I'm inclined to agree.

>>51577944
Heart is balanced. Gideon is the problem.

Standard's creature power level is fine right now.

What needs a fix is their terrible answers. Slowly they've gotten better (Fatal Push, Metallic Rebuke, and Disallow were good removal) but creatures are beginning to outpace the rate at which current spells and abilities can answer them.

>>51576467
Yeah the canned standard environments are pretty grating

>>51577607
>>51577911
You're both retarded.
MaRo is the guy who's been letting blue do everything over the last few years.
>one-sided board wipe?
>yeah, that's blue
>creature destruction?
>yeah, that's blue if they get a token out of it, so that way it's not really removal
>mass targeted exile?
>yeah, that's blue, but they need to get tokens again so it's not really removal and sorcery speed
>actually you know what, let's just give them targeted exile at instant speed and make it manifest a card, that's reasonable, right?

>>51577911
>>51579487

And yet it was better to ban reflector mage, as the format should be all about sorc speed removal and planeswalkers.

>>51578795
Hey man, Pauper and Legacy are pretty well balanced, having strong counterspells keeps a format under control

>>51581035
True. Yeah now that you mention it, I fear that either Heart of Kiran or Veteran Motorist might get the axe too, and Gideon will be spared yet again...

>>51580986
Don't forget removal in good creatures like the recently banned reflector mage and that flash spirit that can hold your spell.

REMOVE STODDARD remove stoddard
you are the worst developer. you are the developer idiot you are the developer smell. return to playing.

>>51582574
>everyone thinks Copycat is intentional to bring combo back into standard
>Stoddard literally didn't see the combo and it got away from testing intact

Because all sets are built for limited and aren't tested for standard

>>51578751
This right here. That's why I'm barely going to FNMs. I just can't play vs. draw-go decks. Then Gearhulk hits the table and I can't get rid of it because they can counter my removal attempts too.

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I love playing MTG for fun with buddies so we don't really follow the standard scene much we just do what I guess is considered legacy at this point.

I looked into making a standard deck for a local game shop that has friendly tournaments and mtg nights on Tuesday/Friday.

It seems that most of the guys there just played with random stuff then the top 4 guys all used mardu vehicles.

I've made about 5 cheapo decks that are fun and work well enough with my buddies for less than $100.

To get into standard the "strong" decks are all over $250-300.

That seems like shit to pay all of that money for a deck that will get outdated when the next set drops.

Also shit online play really hurts; it's old, clunky, slow. I'd like an online TCG that doesn't cost an arm/leg and is still fun enough.

>>51585041
Pauper is based

EDH is sometimes fun but only play with a group of 4 because those games take forever otherwise

I think you might enjoy yourself in either as there's no serious competitive race. The problem with other non-rotating formats like modern and legacy is that even though they're fun, they are not cost effective which seriously filters out new players who don't own most of the staples. Tarmogoyfs and other essentials can be close to $100 and the manabases can ocassionally reach $500 if you're playing a bunch of fetches and shocks (ie, Scalding Tarn).

Pauper is fun because the speed is manageable and you can play with a lot of cards you would normally consider "chaff". I just built RUG delver and it cost less than $60. Other tier-1 decks are almost never above $80 dollars with all the format staples included.

>>51585173
Pauper seems like a neat idea.

I don't like EDH from what i've watched it being played.

I'd like a deck that is literally aimed at crushing money decks. Just because it's fun to chant "money deck money deck" at buddies who spent way too much.

>>51585236
Well, you're in luck, because there are plenty of those.
Spoilers: they cost just as much as those other expensive decks.

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Is Mardu Vehicles the new Bant CoCo?

I think the most significant amount of hate in Magic could be mitigated if everyone could afford some number of competitive decks in whatever format they're playing.

Because the number of people who have multiple competitive decks and play enough to get bored with each of them are in the very small minority.

Standard is boring because it's centralized.

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>>51576420
>>51585372
You tell me.

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As a new player returning to magic, I enjoy standard. Everyone loooooves EDH, but that's not how magic was made. And before I get into modern or legacy, I'd like to play a constructed format that allows for enjoyable play.

>>51585270
Truth. I can't believe retards who hate on pricy decks don't understand this. The expensive decks are often that way because they're good. And they're only good because they beat up other good decks.

That being said, I did play against a guy who had playsets of each of the original Eldrazi Titans in his deck, vastly outpacing the most expensive good decks at the time and he still lost like a bitch. Because when your average starting hand is 3 lands, Quicksilver Amulet, Ulamog, Ulamog, Emrakul I don't know how the fuck you plan on surviving.

>>51585575
Focus on getting good.

I know that sound demeaning but listen up. If you were good before you quit, you wouldn't have to ask for help easing back into the game at this point when you return because you will have had the skills to know exactly what you would have to do to get back into the game with minimal effort and discomfort.

When someone walks into a room and asks, "what's good/fun" absolutely everyone from the worst to the best player thinks they're the laziest motherfucker on the planet.

The main issue I'm seeing is the lack of hard counters to top tier decks, specifically vehicles. The format needs balancing but wizards doesn't let that happen. I look to hearthstone where there are high tier decks, but no deck is garunteed a win every time.

Magic is trash hearthstone is better

>>51585372
yes and no

the Pro Tour is a very inbred format with teams trying to jocky one another by figuring out what the majority of the field is going to look like

in this case they all hive minded and predicted that the Saheeli deck would be the majority and picked the deck that is designed to beat that deck but instaed just ended up making that the majority deck instead
expect the meta to shift a bit more but my guess is that it settles down with the top three being
1. Mardu Vehicles
2. G/B snek goodstuff
3. Jeskai Saheeli

the biggest issues with standard are kind of evident with this pro tour though
lack of any blue representation even in like the top 16 is pretty disgusting and the lack of any real red deck is also sad with decks only throwing in red as a shitty splash color for OP removal cards

lots of other issues exist right now but most of them stem back to one or two major underlying conditions
1. Lack of good hate cards
Emrakul and Vehicles are two perfect examples of cards that are really really pushed but wouldn't have been nearly as oppressive and gay if the dev team had just sat back and thought for two seconds to print an easy 1 or 2 super efficient super splashable super easy hate card against Eldrazi/colorless spells/artifacts/vehicles
that one card is pretty much all that is needed to stop this boring ass format and blow things open but on a higher level powerful and efficient hate cards need to come back. No more of these Cancel with upside, just give us counterspell, no more of this XXR(destroy X artifacts and get something extra XD) just give us Ancient Grudge. Simple, easy, efficient hate.

2. Too much focus in set development being placed on limited and EDH. Two formats that are meant to be played FOR FUN are reducing the power level of cards and forcing the bulk of a sets strength onto 5-10 mythics and rares driving prices sky high. Print strong commons, stop balancing around EDH

>>51585858
this is actually wrong
both HS and Magic are suffering from the exact same problem right now

early game agro cards are far to efficient and decent hate cards don't exist so the formats have become degenerate with 1 or 2 decks making up 90% of the metagame with the objective to win by turn 4

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Because the top decks have been absurdly dominant lately. I know that standard has always had top tier decks, but shit, even Rhino format wasn't this bad where there was at least esper dragons, jeskai tempo, r/g aggro, and some other decks. Mardu vehicles smashes everything, B/G aggro smashes everything not named Mardu vehicles. I'm a predominately aggro player, but this shit is just stupid. Vehicles are immune to sorcery removal, gideon is immune to damn near everything, and even IF you somehow manage to get rid of the gideon/vehicles, you still have an army of one mana 2/3s, one mana 3/2s with sometimes first strike, 3/2 artifacts that can bring themselves back, and more to deal with. It's just too much for any deck to handle. No removal is efficient enough to deal with it, not even fatal push.

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>>51588902
seriously fuck gideon they need to either find a new mechanic or kill him off.

at the very least the fucking prevent damage on top of the indestructibility needs to fucking go holy shit stick to one so we have one fucking card that can deal with him

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>>51589040
There's more than one, but the deck that ran stasis snare/quarantine field died and who the hell runs ruinous path, BB1 at sorcery speed? I suppose any player redirect burn spell too, but that's assuming gideon isn't at 4 counters so shock, unlicensed disintegration's side burn, temper, ect. only work if gideon has 3 or 2 counters on it on your turn or before main phase.

>>51589040
Without the damage prevention clause, it wouldn't matter if he was indestructible, any amount of damage at all would remove loyalty counters.

I just feel like at the moment they're just holding off on printing an Instant removal spell that smokes both Artifacts and Creatures.

Can't have your dominant mechanic get slapped by some sort of Abrupt Decay sort of thing. Let players stew with it for 3 months then have them sing your praises when you print the deck-slayer in the next set.

Sure, we didn't see the graveyard hoser in Kaladesh, which doesn't lend any support to my theory, but you know as well as I do that sort of crap is not too far off from their typical line of thinking.

>>51589218
then remove the indestructible.
there should be some fucking risk to turning him into a creature outside of exile effects.

>>51589218
>As long as Gideon ~ is a creature combat damage does not cause it to lose loyalty counters
There i fixed it.

Reprint Swords to plowshares
Reprint counterspell/brainstorm
Reprint Bolt

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BAAAAACK IN MY DAYS

Mono red is the budget competitive option and can win you big tournaments with a little luck.

Those days are long gone. Wotc needs everyone to buy playsets of mythics for every expansion to make their share holders happy.

>>51590502
>back in my day
>post innistrad

>>51576420

Make Conspiracy standard legal

>>51576676
Yeah I gotta agree with this. All of their improvements in their r&d process seem to make the game less fun.

>>51576593
Okay, well to be fair cockatrice is 100% free and unless your grinding out 6 hours of games straight the crashes are barely noticible.

>>51584781
>can't beat draw-go
>in today's festival of aggro
>kek

>>51576420
>Mostly spikes play standard
>timmies get bullied out of it 'cause they can't have fun/ must pay $400 to keep up with spikes
>EDH are Jhonny/timmy friendly
>play EDH have lots of fun
>barely see any spikes there

feels good man

>>51585270
Krenko cost me about 100 dollars to get to its current incarnation and it can get expensive decks out of nowhere.

>>51592008

>Spikes keep trying to encroach on EDH at my store
>Wizards keeps printing Spike-level cards for EDH

Dark times are ahead, I can feel it in my bones.

>>51576420

When the current meta makes Hearthstone's meta look healthy, there is something wrong.

>>51576420
To hate standard would be to acknowledge it as a legitimate format like legacy, soo i guess not much

>>51594367
>Wizards keeps printing Spike-level cards for EDH
What the fuck are you talking about. The vast majority of EDH cards in the Commander sets are hot fucking garbage.

And I don't understand what is wrong about nut cards in EDH, the entire format is built around the dumbest shit in the history of the game. It is the foundation of the game. The most "spike" cards are cards that have already been printed like dual lands, fetchlands, Coalition Relic, and fatties like Gristlebrand.

I don't understand your frustration with people suddenly deciding to "next level" your metagame. It's already the highest fucking level. Welcome to all Magic, Spikes are going to appear and force everyone else to grow up if your community grows enough. Either it stays small and inbred or you grow it by having to grow up yourself.

>>51596128
not on my format you huge..gay.. zomboman

now go back to modern and let me play my issamaru fun deck

serious question, though: what the fuck is up with Development? Like, what was the last set that wasn't totally fucked up by Development? Fate Reforged? That was two years ago now. How have we seriously had two solid years of Development fucking up every set they get their hands on?

I don't think it's a design problem - there have been a few rocky sets from a design point of view but there's also been a lot of great really cool design. But when it comes to stuff like costing cards, randomly making everything a 2/3, printing horribly unfun cards that are way too dominant, and other general fuckery, it's a really stupendous run of awful bullshit. Honestly, I think the blame has to be placed squarely on Development's shoulders, and we've had a bunch of really bad standards to show for it.

At what point does Wizards have to really look and reconsider what's going on with Development? How have they really been this consistently bad at doing their jobs? What happened, guys?

>>51584781
Nigga, control isn't that strong. Play aggro, get in low, and murder them. Control shits on greedy midrange decks. Go lower to the ground or accept the bad matchup.

cause its objectively trash

>>51596128
Vial Smasher is the spikiest shit since True-Name Nemesis.

>>51580986
Oh, it's the EDH guy again.
Cyclonic Rift is 7 mana and only used in one Format.
>Polymorph is red now (inb4 warp world, which was made because they wanted to help mono R decks, which is Also Why that new card was made.) Pongify is planar chaos, a set all about alternate ideas on what colors should do.
>Blaming every decision on MaRo ever
Sure WotC has been missing, but it's not 100%, and MaRo isn't the end all of everything. If anything, complain to Development.
>>51582521
Literally just Detention sphere on a stick. There's precedent for it.

>>51596724
>>51596128
>>51594367
>>51592008
The thing with EDH is that the Format is overall bad competitive-wise and requires a agreement between all players to not exceed a certain power level. This is apparent when your fine deck is either overpowers another playgroup or gets Destroyed by another.

Honestly people first of all shouldn't see Spikes as a enemy, because at the end of the day we all play the same game. What's needed is a way to agree what's fine and what is not, and probably just giving Control of the Banlist to Wizards.

>>51585575

PANDA'D

How can human men even compete?

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>>51586315

>Shamanstone in 2017

>>51598989
what? a 2/3 that dies to everything and does 4-6 damage to a random opponent every turn is spikey? I don't think so. Also true-name is only spikey in legacy, nobody plays it in edh.

>>51599850
I don't understand why people shit on those that like to play "competitive" edh. Me and my playgroup build highly tuned decks that are fun to play against each other, but obviously I would never bring one to my lgs commander night. Some people just like to play with the best cards printed, and edh is really the only format you can use cards like sol ring, mana crypt, yawgwill, necro, treasure cruise, survival, etc. Vintage has far fewer players and you also need power, so it is much more expensive. I think edh is fun in all forms as long as the decks in a pod are approximately equal in power level.

>>51597353
I think the problem is that ever since RTR, development has tried to curate the standard environment to what they deem "fun". To do this they "push" certain rares and mythics for standard (copter, torrential gearhulk, jvp, siege rhino, etc). This leads to decks that build themselves as well as the same 5-10 cards showing up in every deck, because development has decided that those will be the most powerful, standard-defining cards.

the last format I can remember that wasn't like that was scars-innistrad. For the most part, I think standard was better before they decided to push their own view of standard onto the format. Obviously there were some bad ones, like cawblade and affinity, but at least those were somewhat interesting. the worst part about recent standards for me has been that they are incredibly boring. I only hope that they can realize what they are doing wrong and do something to make standard interesting and fun again.

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>mythic rarities are allegedly reserved for giant flashy cards, story cards, and PW.
>some nerd working at wizards said they want to make story cards more powerful and keystones in decks
>to do this, it means that mythic cards will get a bump in power level, because story happening cards are mythic levels which is what they want people to be playing
I'm a therosbabby, when did this start? The obvious answer is BFZ where the gatewatch bullshit started but I want to know if there was a prior set like it. DTK maybe, but most of those cards that everyone ran was mostly rares right? CoCo, the commands, den protector, ect. The only exception I can think of is deathmist raptor.

>>51597353
Hell, even some of the design problems have been Development telling Design 'no we can't do that' or 'no we need to do that' in advance of development actually being in charge of the set
Like Support being as boring as it is, rather than at least doing something more than just putting counters on critters (it used to put counters on walkers as well, which was at least SOMETHING interesting)

>>51590393
Why does Gideon get to still be a planeswalker while dragon man becomes just a creature anyways?

There isn't enough chase mythics in the format

>>51601839
Because Gideon is part of the Jacetice League

>>51600349
As a Duel Commander player I don't know why anybody feels any reason to use our metagame as a reason to be angry about anything regarding Wizards' fuck ups.

Fuck off, we know we're not important, use your fucking brain to think of better reasons to hate on Wizards than cherry picking shit like True Name or Vial Smasher, both of whom should be fucking joke creatures in regular EDH.

>>51601228
It was definitely around FRF and DTK. FRF had things like Warden of the First Tree, Monastery Mentor, and Soulfire Grand Master that were super pushed, and then Deathmist Raptor in FRF.

Also, the justification wasn't about the story. If I recall correctly, the justification was that they felt that mythics weren't "resonating" enough with competitive players and they wanted to make sure that they printed mythics for competitive players. Which is, in my mind, a pretty egregious bullshit justification for a money grab. but what are you going to do?

>>51602602
Please don't be disrespectful of the story

>>51576420
Optimal playsets have gotten ridiculous. At first it was lands, now it's planeswalkers, lands, super creatures and choice rares

>>51603485
>You might not care, but others do!

>>51586315
>Magic is trash hearthstone is better

You mean the game that has literally two viable decks right now? Both of which are aggro decks based around pirates?

>>51603529
Constructed is awful
>Print strictly superior creatures at same/lower CMC
>But it's rarer so it's okay
1G to get a vanilla 2/2, or pay 1G for a 2/3 vigilance that grows into a 4/5
It's not even legendary so they can't even use that as an excuse.

>>51604295

It really bothers me that they don't seem to have any set "price" for abilities. They just print whatever they feel like and especially mythics seem like they get to do just about anything and get away with it just because they're mythic. They need to sit down and decide exactly how good a creature that costs X mana is allowed to be, then literally never print a creature that's better or worse than that at that cost.

If you fill your sets' lower rarities with trash cards, all it does is make it so that only a handful of cards in any given set are relevant and the rest might as well not exist.

>>51594367
There is no better feeling than sticking an early game bloodmoon.

>>51604295
This is literally how Magic has always worked to some extent. The problems arise when there's a very narrow range of cards that are actually Good Enough, or when way too many of them are in the higher rarities.

>>51604643
Again, this is to a large extent how magic has always worked. There's definitely a push and a pull, and peaks and troughs, but it's always going to be true that a relatively small subset of cards are relevant for competitive constructed purposes. That's just the way it is. That's also why formats besides competitive constructed exist. And forcing everything to fit some Procrustean mold would make the game way more boring and less varied.

The solution here is: One, distribute the power level of cards more evenly, instead of having cases where there is an extremely small set of cards with extremely high power. Two, make sure that the highest power band of cards isn't 100% aligned with the highest rarity band of cards. Three, make sure you print different and varied types of cards, especially powerful and flexible "answer" cards. And all of those are things they've done pretty well at various times in the past. It's just for whatever reason not something that they're any good at right now. For whatever reason (my guess is that their design philosophy is somewhat flawed and development is just straight-up incompetent).

>>51588902
When Reflector Mage got banned, it honestly seemed like a desperate move to avoid banning Gideon. Because MUH WALKERS.

Also, literally every set since Origins has been a few chase rares/mythics that are so much more powerful than everything else in the set:

Origins: Baby Jace, Baby Nissa, Baby Liliana, Hangarback

BFZ: Literally just Gideon and Ulamog. Pathetic. Without Expeditions, this set would have been Dragon's Maze 2.0.

OGW: Kalitas, Koz Return, TKS, Smasher, 3 Mana Nissa

SOI: Nahiri, Avacyn, Jace, Tracker, Thing in the Ice

EMN: Aside from the collosal disaster that was Emrakul, no complaints here.

Kaladesh: Greenhulk, Bluehulk, Chandra, Copter

Aether Revolt: This one's actually very good.

So aside from Eldritch Moon and Aether Revolt, all these sets are a few chase rares with everything else being unplayable garbage.

I switched to legacy once Innistrad was over. Only 'redemable' sets after Innistrad were R2R and Khans, everything else has been boring mudane shit. Switching to legacy was the best decision I've made. The meta is balanced, your cards retain value, and the games are actually fun.

>>51605228
I've honestly thought SOI, EMN, Kaladesh, and Aether Revolt have all been awesome sets with a lot of really cool, interesting shit in them. They haven't created good competitive environments, but they're good sets.

Also, legacy is fantastic, except for the part where it's doomed.

>>51605272
I don't think legacy is doomed, but Wizards doesn't give 2 shits about it thats for sure. Up to the community to keep it alive, and my cities legacy scene is growing so I have hope.

>>51579097
Delve wasn't a mistake.

Putting Delve on fucking Ancestral Recall, making it Sorcery speed and saying "Yeah this looks fine" was the fucking mistake. And there's no real previous card equivalent to Dig Through Time that I can think of but that was a fucking mistake too.

>>51605272
EMN and AER were great. Kaladesh was decent. SOI was ass.

>>51580986
you have never played the game we are discussing

>>51605346
DTT is like a much stronger FoF for half the mana cost.

>>51605346
>scry 7 draw 2
its pretty unique, but shouldnt have been instant
>at your end step ill dig for this dig, and throw all this garbage onto the bottom in case i need it later, I hope there isnt a land that can shuffle this shit off the bottom in the same block

>>51605311
Legacy is absolutely doomed, and I don't mean that in a fearmongering or "hurr legacy is ded" meme way either. There simply are not enough Dual Lands to sustain growth of the format. There will never be a substantial growth in the number of people that play Legacy but the people that do play it in are pretty much locked in cause why the fuck would you spend that much money to play something else? So it's stuck in a limbo of not dead but it can't fully be alive either and the way SCG has been sucking away Legacy support isn't helping.

>>51605419
More like 2 Anticipates+1 Extra Scry in 1 card

>>51605426
Fair enough, but I don't see the amount of people legacy dropping from what it currently is. I agree that it won't grow (unless Wizards abolishs the RL, which they wont) but I don't see the format becoming a graveyard, especially with modern and standard sucking these past few years

Speaking of things that are mistakes, literally nothing they banned from Standard recently was a mistake. What was a mistake is their trash R&D that apparently insisted on having no good goddamn fucking removal at Instant speed, thus meaning you could really do whatever the fuck you want on your turn and rarely ever have to worry about your opponent doing anything in response for a good portion of the game.

Even Emrakul was honestly not that bad, Aetherworks Marvel was the real issue. Why they went from "no combo in Standard because it makes people cry when they can't interact" to "nobody gets to interact with fucking anybody ever, also here's this combo piece that's resilient to removal by way of not being a creature and can power out two cards that all but win you the game if they come down early enough"

>>51605491
The people who work in Development are bad at their jobs imo

Also, Reflector Mage was a bit of a mistake - not that it was ever going to be overpowered, but it was always going to be a stupid, unfun card.

>>51585513
I'm going to be a bit trusting.

I just assumed all the pros made Mardu Vehicles to counter Copycat decks.

Something has to counter Mardu vehicles, right?

>>51605906
Until you see something like Maelstrom Pulse or Abrupt Decay or Vindicate that hits both artifacts and creatures, I don't think so.

Yes, we have Vindicate right now, but you have to lose 3 life to do it. Not the best situation when you have 1-mana 3-power assholes hitting your face.

If we had actual Vindicate I think the control decks would provide some real competition. But we don't so they don't.

I thought Heart of Kiran wasn't that great. I never thought that it would be so easy to get 3-power.

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>>51576420
because there's nothing fun for me to do while also winning games. pic related is the last time I had fun while winning games in standard.

>>51605426
What are you talking about? There are more than enough made in china dual lands to support growth

>>51606091
You can't build a community off of fake cards.

Privately whatever, you can accomplish anything with friends.

But a sustainable community you'll never have. And really, if you're not playing Magic for some sort of social community you might as well just play video games.

For over a year I told everyone I had fakes. Ready to play Legacy/Vintage 100%. Nobody tried. I'm not a jerk or anything, there is something holding everyone back. The idea of using fakes in the open is ingrained in people as bad. There are almost certainly purists who don't believe in proxies. People in this game hold other things in higher regard than getting games played; they feel the economic integrity of the game is better upheld than sitting down and jamming some much desired Legacy.

It's like being unwilling to accept man-made diamonds except the Magic community is higher in concentration than most.

>>51606163
I'd be terrified if I had any economic investment in mtg at the moment.

>>51606203
Anybody who has "invested" in Magic has already won whether it be a store, online shop, or scalper. There is no way that Magic is going to shit the bed so hard that even if they sold everything they have right now at a loss that it would net an overall loss. When you buy cards at 40-50% retail and people are eager to buy at 90% retail, you can see why that's the case. Even if Magic were to fucking tank and you sell at 60% retail you still got something if you don't consider the opportunity cost of having spent money and losing out on the interest of some other investment.

Anybody who is actually in the red on their Magic "investment" has clearly done it wrong.

But I don't care about doing or profiting from this stupid game. I just want to play. I will pay money to play games. And for some reason, this game and the players don't share the same mentality. Playing games should be the number one priority right? That's why I bought the proxies, everyone is always crying and bitching about not getting to play Legacy so I took the first step. I bought shit to get games played, but then I saw that people truly did not prioritize playing the game - they care more about preserving the economic confidence that this game has built. We're not dealing with hard currency, which would be fine; we're dealing with GAME PIECES.

>>51606290
shill lol wtf. be more subtle.

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I think we can all agree Kaladesh is a boring block with a ton of missed opportunities, but one sticks out to me more than others-

The whole thing's supposed to be the diverse vibrant PoCs of Kaladesh rising up against the oppressive white cis male Tezziarchy, right? A people's revolution? So why the hell didn't they bring back the Rebel subtype for this? Surely this would help bring the theme home better than the nonexistent flavor of """Revolt,""" and it'd help give the set relevance outside of limited play.

>>51606464
Shut up faggot Kaladesh and Aether Revolt were very well designed sets, and infinitely better than that retarded trainwreck of BFZ.

>>51606464
Whenever you ask yourself why Wizards didn't do something like that, you just always use their godawful tired excuse:

"It would confuse new players if people mentioned old things"

>>51606464
Kaladesh is a good block in all other respects than its impact on Standard IMO

also, bringing back the 'rebel' type would be slightly cool but pretty useless as long as it had no mechanical impact. really, they should just make Return To Mercadia for all the people who enjoy the flavor of Mercadia, IE, exactly me

>>51606523
t. MaRo

Just because BFZ was shit doesn't mean Kaladesh isn't also shit.

>>51606608
genuinely, what do you want in a set that Kaladesh doesn't provide

>>51606464
When was the last good set? Innistrad? Jesus its been 6 fucking years and wotc still hasn't gotten their shit together.

>>51606547
It just feels to me that the design team either has long term memory loss or they're actively trying to forget their own history. It'd certainly explain how they manage to print bullshit card advantage like the copter in almost every set.

For real though, the opportunity of pitting Rebels against the establishment's Mercenary bully-boys should have been too good to miss. Kaladesh is one of the sets thematically closest to Mercadia, it'd be the perfect time to do it.

>>51606644
honestly someone should make a thread so we can figure out once and for all which sets are actually good

>>51606635
An interpretation of the long-awaited Vehicles that isn't utterly underwhelming?
Balance that doesn't require near-instant banlists?
Playable Red burn?
A Green tribe that isn't fucking Elves for the thousandth time?
No retarded chase rare bullshit fucking with the prices?

I dunno, seems like plenty of reasons to dislike Kaladesh off the top of my head.

>>51606644
>When was the last good set?
18 days ago

>>51606652
I'm not saying soliciting feedback from the community or pro players is a good idea or good use of money making them sign NDAs.

But the sheer fact they don't means that anything smart and niche is going to get missed. Their only feedback mechanism is the surveys on their website and email. It is conducted by a third party that probably collates the results and returns them to Wizards. If that third-part doesn't get a billion "rebel" results from, "What is your favorite mechanic/tribe", Wizards isn't going to know.

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>just fought against bg aggro for the first time
>mfw
What were they thinking? How could they make a deck that strong? Walking Ballista on it's own is fucking retarded when paired with that asshole 2/3 snake and greenhulk, it's just absolutely retarded. No removal spell works at all because they can just dump all the counters on you or nuke your field while the 4/4 tramplers beat your face in.

The worst part is I know that W/R/B aggro is even more bullshit but luckily no one plays it.

>>51606652
but, like - and I'm not necessarily saying they shouldn't have done it - just having rebels fighting mercenaries in a set isn't interesting from a design perspective, and it wasn't what was interesting about them in Masques. so just shoving rebels in as cardtypes would be cool but it wouldn't do much, you'd have to rejigger the whole set, and I don't think the mechanical design of Kaladesh was really the problem. I like energy, and I think the problems with vehicles are 100% on development.

>>51605346
Delve is a "problematic" mechanic according to R&D, just like every other cost reduction mechanic they've ever made.

There's nothing, absolutely nothing, they're as bad at balancing as mechanics that reduces the cost of playing spells.

>>51606730
I have to be honest, complaining about stuff like burn and elves just seems like piddling bullshit, and I'm not sure what you're talking about w "retarded chase rare bullshit fucking with the prices" - like I assume you're talking about Masterworks, but I don't get the objection, because they only drive the price down for all non-Masterworks in the set, so I would think you'd be happy they were in.

So it feels like most of your objection comes down to "WotC figuring out how to balance shit again" which I agree the impact on Standard has been bad but I also think there's a ton of cool-ass cards. That'd be my counterargument.

>>51606464
Maro addressed that in his article today
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/odds-ends-aether-revolt-part-1-2017-02-06

Basically, they already had some Artificer tribal going, and since most of the rebels story-wise are inventors and thus Artificers he didn't want to cram too many subtypes onto each card.

>>51606832
Speaking of this column: it's really funny to me that they pretty obviously designed a whole cycle of legends for Tiny Leaders, except everyone stopped playing Tiny Leaders long before the set came out, so they don't want to actually say that they were designed for Tiny Leaders

>>51606797
For the chase rares I think he means the 2-3 cards per set that wotc deems worthy of being constructed playable so they push their power level so high that it's not worth playing any other cards in standard. Gideon, copter, emrakul, heart of kiran, etc. they make the commons/uncommon basically trash to ensure that the only cards in standard are their list of select "pushed" mythics. And that usually makes for a shit format

>>51606885
yeah maybe? I honestly wasn't sure what he was talking about, so I was mostly going off the bit about "fucking with the prices".

In any case, I don't think KLD is particularly bad in that regard - after all the best card in the set is a rare - and AER is really pretty good

>>51605199
>EMN
>No complaints
Who are Liliana and Grim Flayer?
The fact that Grim Flayer is Mythic still enrages me to this day.

>>51606913
But obviously both kaladesh and Arthur revolt ARE bad in that regard because the current standard is dominated by only 3 decks. Anything that isn't mardu vehicles, g/b, or cat combo is unplayable, and it's the fault of this block

>>51606987
they're not bad in regard of only mythics being playable

they're bad in their impact on standard - I agree - but good in most other respects

>>51606885
at least they fixed that mostly with aether revolt

>>51607076
Kaladesh is bad. Aside from the Cat (which isn't even a rare), AEther Revolt didn't really release any toxic cards. Vehicles being dominant has nothing to do with the release of HoK; the reason Vehicles dominated the the PT is because Emrakul was the only thing that was really holding the deck back. And Ballista isn't broken; it's just a very efficient and versatile creature.

>>51607122
That and also people weren't expecting Vehicles, so they didn't prepare for it

>>51576676
They've designed for standard since invasion block though and invasion through time-spiral was great (except Mirrodin).

>>51584781
>>51578751
Control decks should have 0 instant speed draw because instant speed draw is cancer but should have better answers (countermagic, sorcery speed removal) and the format should have weaker creatures.
Also fuck 90% of all planeswalkers, they're fucking cancer.

>>51607197
Cancer level of each walker in Standard:

Scrub Tier:
All the walkers from the Intro packs
Kiora
Dovin Baad
Both Walkers from AEther Revolt

Balanced tier:
Ob Nix
Tamiyo
5 mana Nissa
6 mana Chandra
All 4 Walkers from Shadows Over Innistrad

Borderline Cancer Tier:
4 Mana Chandra
3 Mana Nissa
Liliana

Cancer Tier:
Saheeli
Gideon

Accurate?

>>51607318
Nahiri balanced? Tezz scrub tier?

>>51607318
in terms of power level? I don't really know, I think when people talk about game design in magic they focus way too much on game balance instead of what makes the game fun.
Like Ugin if I recall correctly was relatively balanced for standard, but completely fucking terrible for the game. JTMS is OP as fuck, and was a problem because of that, but was still less cancerous imo. Similarly people bitched about how Tibalt wasn't strong enough, but it is still designed better than the vast majority of planeswalkers.
Thus, I really don't like any of the planeswalkers from SOI, the only ones that I find even vaguely positive or interesting are Tamiyo and Nahiri, and even those are nothing to write home about.

>>51590616
Lmaooo you really want Show and Tell in Standard? Be careful what you wish for, kid.

>>51607411
In terms of fun, I'd say:

Cancer:
Dovin
Liliana
Saheeli
Jace
Ob Nix
Arlinn
Sorin
Kiora
Gideon
All the Intro Pack walkers
Both AEther Revolt walkers

Tolerable:
Nahiri
Tamiyo
Both Nissas
6 Mana Chandra

Fun:
4 mana Chandra

Accurate?

>>51607476
>Fun cancer
All Planeswalkers

FTFY

>>51607476
I haven't played with the 4 mana chandra to know how fun it is to play with (it is OK to play against it in modern) but yeah, I mostly agree, although I don't really consider myself an authority on standard an authority on standard.

>>51576420
Because board states in high level games generally consist of mythic rares with a few rares thrown in.

>>51607476
There are 2 walkers here that should honestly be errata'd:

>Dovin
Reduce the mana cost by 1, but make the +1 give -2/-0 instead of -3/-0

>Nahiri
Remove the tapped clause from the -2, but make the ult a -9.

>>51607545
They can't realistically do erratas.

>>51607318
are we talking cancer in terms of this standard or looking at the card on its own how broken is saheli without the cat.

I dont know why they keep fucking making gideon the effect is clearly to fucking good.

I feel really bad asking this, but where do I start with magic?

Do I collect the latest edition cards? Try to build a deck from singles?

I'm really confused by all the options.

>>51607686
The best options are
>Buy a deckbuilder toolkit
>Go to prerelease
>Go to an LGS with someone that knows how to play and ask for free sample decks. If you don't have any friends, you can also ask the seller to teach you

>>51606635
Destroy artifacts, exile graveyards and counter spells.
But yes, compared to BFZ and SOI, is a much better block. (Still shit)

>>51607686
Go to your LGS and ask the owner for a free demo game, I'm pretty sure they're supposed to do them and should have free sample decks in.

>>51607902
>>51607714
I got one of the deckbuilder toolkits for the kaladesh set, and have been playing with some of my friends. I'm just not really sure where to go next and am almost too shy to even go to the store.

>>51606635
>genuinely, what do you want in a set that Kaladesh doesn't provide
Powerful cards at low rarities. The pushing of power into higher rarities is so obvious at this point that it makes me not want to play.

>>51607921
>am almost too shy to even go to the store.
Then you're gonna have a problem if you want to buy more cards

>>51607942
But amazon...

>>51607947
You can't draft or play sealed on Amazon
I'd advice you and your friend to go play in a LGS from time to time so you can meet other players
Only playing against the same 3 or 4 players gets boring
But that's just my two cents as an ex-shy person

>>51590568
Kaladesh was a mistake.

>>51576682
>>51577684
>>51577888
It's a little of Column A, a little of Column B.

Those few rares and mythics that are especially good are enhanced by a deck full of commons and uncommons that can support them, as well as a competent deckbuilder/drafter/player. Honestly, the majority of draft's power comes from uncommons. Untethered Express is one of the premium draftables in Aether Revolt due to it's resilience to removal, increasing size, and ability to slot into anything that uses creatures (which is almost anything you'd draft). It has been ranked on a number of sites as a higher value pick than several rares and even some mythics.

>>51608042
Kaladesh was a good set marred by a history of lackluster Standard environments and Development ruining Design.

>>51608042

I'd say mythics and "super mythics" (inventions, expeditions) were the mistake moreso than Kaladesh's setting.

>>51576420
It's a cash grab. If you want competitive standard decks you have to drop hundreds of dollars a year. You might as well just play casually and slowly build a vintage deck with that money, at least vintage cards will retain their value and always be top tier in their own format.

>>51606290
It's the people who paid out the a$$ for Legacy who are terrified of proxies. People who bought their decks 20+ years ago for next to nothing don't care as much. At least from what I've experienced, that seems to be the case.

>>51611577
Super Mythics aren't really a problem. They're a response to try and cheapen Standard prices by giving a incentive to open packs. Everything in Masterpieces are reprints.

>>51606290
Scalpers are cancer. Anyone who wants to buy the Atraxa deck right now but can't because of the ridiculous $80 price tag will agree with me. Part of the problem though, is that WoTC has created a safe space for scalpers over the past few years; between the way they handled both Modern Masters sets (short-printing the fuck out of the first one and offensively low quality of the second one), the discontinuation of Core Sets, Event Decks, and Clash Packs, and the way they cut off the printing of Commander 2016 10 MONTHS EARLY.

>>51612871
Super Mythics are actually a godsend. Without them, I honestly have no doubt in my mind that Gideon would be a $100 card by now.

>>51612803
>It's the people who paid out the a$$ for Legacy who are terrified of proxies.
Fuck them. They bought them to play, why get fucking pissy when someone did it for cheaper whether they bought cards on the ground level 20 years ago or through proxies.

>>51612993
Yeah, I've said what you're saying for years. WotC knows exactly what they are doing. The problem about that is that players are too fucking busy circle jerking about Wizards' community outreach efforts to care/see that they engage in anti-consumer bullshit that cannot be balanced by giving some stupid new player a free draft on MTGO or sending some dumb retard who got their collection stolen and cried on Reddit about it a care package.

Anybody can imagine any number of card availability improvements that would benefit an untold number of people. But the community being as stupid as any other community don't care if everyone is elevated, they only care that some schmuck got their bent Masterpiece replaced. "Oh look, Wizards takes my mail!"

It's not just Magic but the world. Everyone seems to care more that one retarded kid gets fundraised to go to Disneyland than everyone in a school has regular bus service.

At the end of the day, I wonder WHY Wizards thinks what they're doing is okay. Do they feel that supporting their mega-retailers and the secondary market is some form of vertical integration and you can reap the benefits of them freely advertising your product and giving a secondary marketplace with ZERO blowback to the corporation and all you have to do is not shock their business model. I know players will always be whiny bitches and scream for more, but small-scale LGS are certainly not benefiting because they can't exploit economies of scale and the game being as expensive as its gotten with no working pressure release valve (i.e. Masters sets) the store is looking pretty fucking empty.

>>51613011
I don't need to do the math to say that what you're claiming is wrong. Masterpieces have a near insignificant impact on the price of cards.

It's about a 1/80 chance of getting any one specific Mythic in a booster. Masterpieces/Expeditions are 1/144. With these sorts of odds, the EV of opening a booster is hardly impacted.

Stores are just selling to each other. THAT is how the price is determined. They'll just fucking crank it whether the demand is from each other or from players. And they can sit on that inventory because they know players are goddamn thirsty and will perceive that any drop in price is a deal even when it's still stupidly inflated.

>>51613417
That's just what WoTC does. They fuck over the small stores while giving megastores like SCG, CFB, and T&T more incentive to continue doing what they are doing.

>>51613687
It's essentially the same thing as Ronald Reagan-style "trickle down" economics, except with cardboard instead of cash.

>>51606855
Hopefully this stops them from paying attention to meme formats in the future.

>>51613687
That's the thing, it is a SHIT idea.

Here's the deal, Magic (really, anything that involves leaving the house to see people including board games and sports) is positioned very poorly in terms of appeal. People would rather just do shit from home. Porn consumption proves this - why go to the theater, bookstore, or video rental when you can just Amazon all the freaky shit to your door or get it from the Internet.

Unless their plan is to go full-digital, they need to support the fucking paper game in any possible way they can, and that means you can't leave your small communities/stores in the fucking cold.

Magic can die. So long as they continue making TV shows Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh will never actually die but Magic can and will in small places, and by small I mean any city that cannot support a games store, which is quickly becoming the case thanks to online shopping. Magic can die like Bridge has or casinos are dying.

If entertainment is measured in endorphins Magic has to compete with video games, porn, and increasingly extravagant movies. The average nerd is becoming even MORE solitary. Why play Magic when you can play CoD or DotA.

As an aside, why play fucking Magic when Hearthstone and Japanese waifu-card games just look a billion times more interesting.

Everything about Magic right now is them resting on their laurels. It's already catching up to them, their paper game is too fucking expensive and their online client is actually garbage. Good luck attracting people if you're going to fuck your small stores, who are struggling for OTHER reasons beyond Magic. Maybe Magic is just going to become one of those copy-paste card games you only find at Target and Walmart.

>>51606987
>haven't even hit the pro tour yet
>people already calling the format dead

Lol you fucking pussies at least wait for the top 8 of the protour to be nothing but those decks before you say the format is dead

>>51607840
>plenty of artifact destruction
>effect that makes no sense and has little impact on the standard environment
>we just had arguably the best 3 mana counterspell printed

I don't know what to tell you

>>51613969
Magic isn't that doomed until something does magic better. Even now most if not all digital card games have no counterplay at all, and Hearthstone has been taking water from unbalanced metas and RNG.

Casinos are adapting desu, they're not dying anytime soon (they're more gamey now)

Entertainment isn't measured in Endorphins. What's stopping people from just doing both?

Magic isn't dead YET, but they're in trouble if they don't do something good soon.

First, old formats are gonna die a horrible, slow death because prices for essentials like dual lands are sky high and can't ever be lowered with the reserve list still in place. The only people playing legacy/vintage are the dudes that have owned the cards since the dawn of magic and purchased them when they were dirt cheap. With all this price gouging bullshit on good cards there's no way a newbie can jump into legacy and not go broke buying a deck that can actually compete.

Next, new formats will be on the chopping block if they refuse to print good cards at lower rarities. Especially in new sets there are a few ultra amazing cards that are pinned at mythic (i.e Grim Flayer) that everyone wants but since there's so few the price skyrockets and now you have a $20-$25 single card thats a staple in its archetype. Rarity isn't bad, but Mythics are. This type of shit is not good for the game.

Magic is like a cancer patient right now. Not dead, but its being slowly killed if no cure arrives soon.

>>51614026
Are you trying to make a joke? Like I get it. It's a pretty good effort. I just feel your post looks way to ignorant to fully convey that it's a sarcastic post.

>>51614091
The Standard environment needs a card that hits both Artifacts and Creatures that doesn't cost you 3 extra life. As it is, artifact-only and creature-only removal is fairly weak because it can't hit the other.

If you think some graveyard hate is inappropriate at the moment I don't know where you've been for the past couple months.

3-mana counterspells are not always playable - they're most playable when control decks exist for counterwars often brought in in to support 2-mana counterspells. Because we don't have any good 2-mana counter spells AND control decks aren't that good, having super-Cancel is worthless.

>>51606730
>so explain how you'll do Vehicles that actually make sense
>Artifact sets are usually broken, and compared to Mirrodin and Scars this is pretty balanced
>Shock? Burn is coming back into style and Lighting Bolt actually is better then you think.
>can't get everything, this also isn't a tribal block and there's Gremlins and Aetherborn
>Honestyy most of the mythics aren't needed with a few exceptions. The main problem is Gideon, not Kiran

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>>51586604

EDH managed to kill off Standard and then the entire Magic scene at my one LGS.

It enticed people out of Standard as a more affordable Extended format and then just escalated as a bullshit Singleton Modern/Legacy format until everyone just kept building combo decks to try to win before other combo decks.

>>51614130
Nobody cares about quality anymore. The environment necessary to create the quality-demanding old-school nerd no longer exists.

Hearthstone and waifu-cards simply looks better - it's scary how much distance that goes. Wizards is cutting out all the tits from their game.

There is no doubt that Magic is the best. But being the best doesn't count for as much as it used to. And because Wizards' management of Magic makes it fall short of appealing to people on a base level, it will die even though it deserves success because of its complexity.

>What's stopping people from just doing both?
Because everything not related to the game itself: the marketplace, hideous plot, the presence of grognards, unclear instructions on how to start the game independent of asking some random player who is often wrong, and too many formats casual and official - constantly makes people ask themselves, "why do I put up with this?" And they don't; they'll go to something nicer or something that doesn't try so fucking hard to prevent you from having fun or making you feel like you wasted your money.

>>51614282
I mentioned this before, one of the flaws of EDH is how people don't expect full power and a lackluster banlist causing Degeneracy.

>>51614323
>waifu cards

Wasn't FoW just a fad? Pretty sure they're not doing too well.

>>51614323

>Nobody cares about quality anymore. The environment necessary to create the quality-demanding old-school nerd no longer exists.
If people didn't care then Standard wouldn't be in danger and so unpopular right now
>Hearthstone and waifu-cards simply looks better - it's scary how much distance that goes. Wizards is cutting out all the tits from their game.
Hearthstone is Blizzard, all Frosting, little cake. SV is a meme, and if you really wanted to pander, it's to Tumblr, which they are doing.
>There is no doubt that Magic is the best. But being the best doesn't count for as much as it used to. And because Wizards' management of Magic makes it fall short of appealing to people on a base level, it will die even though it deserves success because of its complexity.
Literally just look up NWO, a response to this complexity.

>Because everything not related to the game itself: the marketplace, hideous plot, the presence of grognards, unclear instructions on how to start the game independent of asking some random player who is often wrong, and too many formats casual and official - constantly makes people ask themselves, "why do I put up with this?" And they don't; they'll go to something nicer or something that doesn't try so fucking hard to prevent you from having fun or making you feel like you wasted your money.
At least you have one decent argument.

>>51614413
I don't actually believe Standard is bad. I think it's super interesting every rotation.

I think the problem is that players are listening to the fucking pros who play Magic 12 hours a day and exclaim that the format is boring and decide to agree to that without experiencing it. There more than enough Standard to be played that to the average player that it cannot possibly become boring in 3-months. It's like someone telling you that lobster and steak is boring - fuck them.

Combine that with the fact that decks are so goddamn expensive players can't just own a huge pile of Standard cards to experiment on their own, thus extending the appeal of the format. Once again, the pros have all the fucking cards and everyone else has only enough for one deck. If Standard is a 3-deck metagame that's perfectly fine for a 3-month period if everyone had those decks but they can't because that's probably $2000 in cards. If everyone had those three decks and all the Tier-2 cards in between there would be more than enough entertainment in Standard.

>>51614413
Why does WoTC even bother to make artifact blocks? If you ask me to show you a block where Standard has been extremely unpopular, I'll show you an artifact block.

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>>51576420
>these days?
Money. And I don't hate it I just don't want to forever fork up the cash to keep up with it.

After mathing two years of actual standard costs, I figured out if I just put it toward a eternal format I could buy those "Super expensive cards" I thought had too high prices to ever reasonable reach.
Flash forward two more years I'm in competitive play in both Legacy and Modern, and I'm spending a third less of the money I use to.

But if there weren't standardians constantly plugging money into the WotC machine I'm certain all of MTG would not be able to sustain itself.

So by all means, everyone but me: Keep playing standard.

>>51614556
Artifact blocks are fine.

The reason why Artifact blocks coincide with unpopularity is because a Wizards-designed-mechanic NAME is attached to the most degenerate deck. From a player's creative expression perspective, it makes it look like Wizards purposely pushed something, which denies the player's illusions that they discovered something interesting or a combo.

In Mirrodin that word was Affinity. In Scars that word was Infect or the Titans or just the fact that Jace brought the most vocal of chromatic-haters out of the woodwork who love to shit all over blue. In Kaladesh that word is Vehicles. In Theros that problem word was Devotion.

Words like "Control" or Aggro also grind on people, especially Control, which has coincided with long games and a whole lot of nothing happening.

Words like Jund, Jeskai, Beatdown, Stompy, RDW, Copy-Cat, Melira-Pod, the Aristocrats or Solar Flare are less intrinsically offensive.

As an aside, if Copy-Cat wasn't preceeded by Twin people would probably love it. Instead people are fucking blaming them for allowing infinite bullshit when they've been so vocal against it in the past.

So yeah, it's funny that Wizards worked so hard to eliminate the use of funny deck names. If fucking Robots was allowed to be a named deck again people wouldn't get as pissed off. But Vehicles, if that gets too strong (and it has) you not only hear the word but you see that word on cards and marketing, and that's where the hate comes from.

>>51605311
No anon, Legacy is dying. I don't mean that in a nasty way either, it's dying simply because building blocks of the format simply can't be printed again and every year a few more get lost or destroyed. Legacy will simply die, certain decks are essentially not played on paper any more due to missing components.

I have no sympathy mind you. The situation is caused by collectors and the fact that Legacy players bitch about EDH players buying up duals and using them for casual games (despite EDH having more official support than Legacy) shows how little the community has learned. This is a hell of the Legacy player bases own creation.

>>51614182
>I've not no counter argument so if I pretend that I'm confused whether it's a joke maybe the person will be too embarrassed to reply

ebin meme my dude

>>51614182
>control decks are weak
>Jeskai Saheeli is literally everywhere

Do you think it isn't control because it runs a combo or something?

>>51614772
Legacy has the support of a playerbase who keeps it up a la Old School. Everybody knows about collectors but people also don't believe Proxys are the answer because using them doesn't change anything and WoTC won't care as proxies aren't going to win any Tournaments or cause money to go in because reserve list is something that even MaRo tried to end and failed.

>>51614182
Are you really so asspained about Scrapheap that you think we need something like relic of progenitus to deal with it?

>>51614906
The RL is what's killing Legacy, the only people upholding it are Legacy players/collectors who are, don't forget, the same people as far as Wizards can tell. I'm not a big fan of proxies either but at this stage you've either got to embrace proxies, fight to kill the RL or accept that there are now stretches of the world where it is effectively impossible to play legacy.

>>51614951
Don't forget the third option of alternate duals which MaRo was considering.

>>51614906
How does using fakes not change anything? People who were not able to play legacy because of the high price barrier now can. Either proxies become so good that they are indistinguishable from the real deal, and prices plummet, allowing more people to play legacy anyway, or wizards is forced to do something, which will likely also decrease the barrier to legacy.

>>51615455
Because they're on the RL, and so wotc won't touch that with any pole.

>>51615670
Right, but the chinamen will. That's why fakes actually do something, because they increase the supply of dual lands even though wotc refuses to. so they will keep making fakes and getting better until something is done.

>>51615725
Wotc gets nothing from the RL as they refused to reprint them. They're so hellbent on this they're fine with insanely increasing buyouts (Moat). Honestly even if Proxys dominate revered list they still need to get past the M15 holograph to register on Wizards eye.

If Modern or Legacy/Vintage are something that happens at your store that's fine, the proxies have probably taken your community events from life-support to the path to recovery.

But what does it mean for communities where those formats have died or outright never existed. What idiot is going to show up claiming they casually dropped $2000 on a mana base just to get Legacy started and is welcoming any challengers.

The fakes are nice to have no doubt, but for a significant number of players having them around still amounts to no games happening or will happen in the future. They will prop up a format but they won't bring something back from the dead.

>>51615863
How? The cards that are targets of buyouts came out 15-20 years before the holographs even existed. Why would thet have to get past that?

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>>51614341

The moment I saw the people that got attracted to my LGS for EDH I knew something bad was on the horizon. Deadpool logos all over, earlobe stretching rings, demanding trades from people before they even opened their boosters... shit like that.

I guess I'm just not enough of a Spike to see the appeal in high powered EDH decks. I have the 2016 premades tuned up a little bit alongside a few Tribals I've cobbled together for low power play with friends and it's a ton of fun as people play politics while hoping for bombs. But when I've run the high end decks that either aim to ruin everyone's fun or infinite by Turn 3 or 4... it just fucking sucks. It's like only ever playing on those old Unreal Tournament servers were people had infinite ammo Sniper Rifles that fired like 50 exploding rounds a second: fun every now and then but got stale fast.

>>51614733
Its not even just artifact blocks.

Here's a list of all the fundamentally unbalanced, Standard-destroying mechanics or cards:

Tempest-Urza Standard: Fast Mana (Mox Diamomd, Mana Vault), Big Mana (Ancient Tomb, Tolarian Academy), Mind Over Matter, Memory Jar, Voltaic Key, and Windfall

Urza-Masques Standard: Rebels

Both Oddysey Standards: Upheaval

Both Mirrodin Standards: Affinity

Kamigawa-Ravnica Standard: Jitte

Both Lorwyn Standards: Faeries

Zendikar-Scars Standard: Jace and Stoneforge

Both Scars Standards: Titans, Dismember and Infect

Scars-Innistrad Standard: Geist and Delver

RTR-Theros Standard: Devotion

Both Tarkir Standards: Rhino and CoCo

Both BFZ Standards: Gideon

BFZ-Kaladesh Standard: Vehicles and Emrakul

>>51617249
Well I think high powered EDH decks are fine as long as they are only played among themselves. Obviously it is bad if someone brings a tuned deck to a deck of pre-cons, but personally I feel that when decks can win, develop an unbeatable board presence, or lock others out of the game within the first 3-6 turns, it makes every decision made by the players that much more meaningful. When games last hours and everyone is just playing on-curve threats, there is a lot of leeway in terms of mistakes and there really isn't a lot to actually think about when you play the game. But when most competitive decks are primarily made of 1-3 mana interactive spells and a bunch of broken ramp, it really opens up the game for a lot of back and forth and high level play. Because of this, when tuned decks play against others of the same level, the game usually isn't even decided within the first 4 turns anyway. Plus many people just like to play with the most powerful cards printed. Why play with some trash rares when edh is a format where you can whip out yawgwill, surivival of the fittest, necropotence, etc.

Anyway, that is just my thoughts on why competitive edh is fun. Obviously its not for everyone, but I don't get the hate for people that like to play tuned decks, as long as they don't bring those decks to playgroups with a clearly lower power level.

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>>51576467
This so much

It's so so so obvious what decks/archetypes they want to be the "meta" decks

There is not an example of this then the B/G Delirium deck. Printed the extremely forced Flayer, Spider, and Emra-fun. All the while decided to print absolutely ZERO graveyard hate of any form during it's run.

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>>51614530

People who dump on Standard because of what the pros say remind me of that episode of Bob's Burgers with the wine tasting train.

>"Oo, I like this one!"
>"You THINK you do, but you don't."
>"Oh, yeah!"

>>51614772

>Long-time players shit on Standard, wonder why no one is playing Modern or Legacy
>Newer players who mainly play FNM show some interest in Modern but nervous about the price
>They're given the normal talk about how Standard is actually more expensive in the long run (Which these people haven't gotten to) and it's just the mana base, etc.
>Newer players start researching popular deck builds
>See shit like Snapcaster and Zendikar Fetches in Modern or the Duals in Legacy
>Long-time players suggest some "budget" decks
>Modern/Legacy night rolls along
>Long-time players utterly decimate the new players with their absurdly tuned T1 decks
>Next week the long-time players complain that not enough people are playing Modern/Legacy

I've stopped going to one of my LGSs as often as I did because that cycle never stopped.

>>51617524

I hear you completely on that: I think the problem with my scene was that instead of working to control the single Combo deck everyone just ditched their Tribals and went Combo or Stax.

Matches were either 5 turns or several hours.

>>51576420
I hate standard because the amount of archetypes was abysmal before the bans

>control?

Nah our market researchers found that children under 10 don't like counterspells. Control will now just be later-mid-range and based around creatures with 20 effects stapled to them and also play at sorcery speed.

>combo?

Nope that's toxic too

>burn

Can't have that either. You don't wanna Timmy in his foil midrange deck losing a game to lightning bolt off the top.

It's all just a heap of midrange safe garbage and all you do is play the most efficient beaters and walkers and hope your opponent has a stroke from boredom. This also means that only a few viable decks can exist because in such a limited and policed format there will probably only be a few decks good enough to midrange with the best of them. Think UW flash and BG delirium before the rotation. Besides the jank combo no deck even came close to touching them.

>>51617660
>Control
Metallic Rebuke, Disallow, Torrential Gearhulk?

>Combo
Copycat?

>Burn
At least they FINALLY at least gave us Shock.

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>>51576420
Planeswalkers

/thread

>>51617809
>Metallic Rebuke, Disallow, Torrential Gearhulk?

Well before Revolt we didn't have either of those counterspells. Now control is fine.

>Copycat

Wizards admitted it was a mistake and wouldn't have done it if they saw the interaction ahead of time.

>Burn

When people do flips because we got shock that it's a pretty sad world. All I request I like a swiftspear/1 mana red fast and a lightning strike and we can't get it.

>>51617809
>>51617900

It kinda sucked how they release Torrential Gearhulk and combined with Dark-Dwellers I managed to build a really solid and fun Grixis Control deck...

...Which got little to nothing from Aether Revolt because of so many overpriced Sorceries.

>>51605426
>>51614772
The print run for all duals is relatively high, but the price is very inflated. I'm not saying there are still all of those 300-500k duals avaliable, but the players aren't going to actually run out of duals.
I recently bought mine and wouldn't even mind if WotC abolished the RL so that more people play legacy. That being said, our community is great here and we have 2 weekly legacy tournaments with a couple of opens and other bigger tournaments a year.

>>51576420
Midrange: The Tappening

I like the way this became the standard thread.

As someone new to magic, how do I find good decklists? Not just the most extreme tuned ones, but somewhere I can browse for ones I like the sound of?

>>51617969
How much did you pay for the lands?

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>>51614614
>3560x5514

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>>51617815
>/threading your own post

>>51618126
mtggoldfish has a list of all decks that go 5-0 in standard leagues, as well as decks that do well in high profile tournaments, so that is a good place to look for well-built decks. they also have a pretty good amount of budget decks and brews, if that is what youre looking for

>>51576420
standard has always and will always be shit, no ands ifs or buts.

>>51618601
eh, both innistrad standards weren't bad. ravnica-time spiral was decent too. I wasn't playing before that, but I'm sure some older blocks had decent standard environments

>>51618572
Thanks, sounds good.

>>51614282
EDH is actually a cancer

I don't begrudge people for liking to play it but with its rise in popularity WotC is now making sure to always print a number of cards in each new set that are specifically aimed at EDH and also making sure that every single card in the set is EDH friendly

this is bad for a number of reasons
1. Taking a set that is meant to be played in the main 2 competitive formats (Standard and Modern) and then making sure that multiple cards from this set are designed explicitly not to be played in those formats is a bad idea and can lead to many different kinds of problems
2. it reduces the card power significantly, Since EDH players aren't concerned with winning it means that the cards can be shit and that's ok. It also means that cards have to be made with multiple opponents in mind. No more Deal X damage to target player or creature (where X is an efficient level of damage for the CMC) instead it has to be "Deal X damage to EACH opponent (where X is efficient when the number of opponents is >1) which drives the overall power of cards down in sets. You can find blatant examples of this in virtually every set in the last 3 years or so and is one of the lesser seen reasons that sets have been sucking

EDH should be happy to get their own structure deck releases once or maybe twice per year but WotC should 100% stop designing cards with EDH in mind when making new sets for standard and not worry about how they will effect a multi player format ever. Then maybe we can have some powerful new and exciting cards in Standard and Modern that aren't handicapped by the casual "I want to win but not that badly" EDH format

Reprint UU unconditional CS
Reprint bolt
Reprint cards that are fun

Aether revolt is a decent step in the right direction but sorcery speed overcosted cards balanced around EDH and walkers that are borderline necessary to win isn't fun in standard.

Return to lorwyn when?

>>51620942
Sadly probably never as drafting was bad and Shadowmoore ruined both sets.

>>51620683
I don't play EDH but this is stupid as fuck

There has always been power variance in sets. There have always been cards made to support things other than standard or modern. And that's OK. There is nothing wrong with that. Those are valid parts of the game as much as any other format is. And it's not like making those cards is stopping them from printing interesting cards.

I mean, fuck, if you're really going to come out here and tell me that printing a rare for EDH is worse than printing Mudhole or One With Nothing, I don't know what to say to you.

>>51620942
Unfortunately, despite being the pinnacle of Magic from a quality standpoint, TSP and Lorwyn sold poorly. So we're never going to return to Lorwyn.

God, Lorwyn was good.

>>51607177
at some point they decided lightning strike and birds of paradise were too strong for standard. that's when it went down the shitter

>>51621964
Don't bring up old-ass cards whose development philosophy doesn't even apply in today's Magic.

Yes, giving EDH so many fucking dedicated cards in a product has negative consequences. If they are only perceived as EDH cards that is all it takes to ferment bad feelings. Because it signals to other players of other formats that their formats don't goddamn matter.

Every time I look at a card in the spoiler and think how shit it is, I think about somebody saying, "this goes in my *incredibly narrow EDH deck*" and every time someone says that in public I wonder, "gee, where the fuck is my Modern reprintings or accessible Standard cards Wizards?"

The sheer fact that Commander deck cards are ONLY legal in Eternal and have no Modern staples in them only makes people more angry. Because players outside of EDH look at this opportunity to reprint cards but it isn't being used, and meanwhile they have to deal with Modern Masters boxes that are overpriced as hell and a format that's been expensive since its inception five years ago.

Yes, they're afraid that printing an actual good reprint will make a run for Commander sets. Or if they make Commander cards legal for formats like Modern it will also make a run for the decks. But I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about the perception of care. And the other formats are fucking rotten while EDH gets a fucking dedicated product every year and has to spew its poisonous card design into Standard boosters when before EDH players were perfectly fine with literally NO attention.

>>51622065
There used to be a point where you actually had to make a decision between shooting a T1 bird or not.

But recently for a while you absolutely had to shoot the Elvish Mystic with your Lightning Strike otherwise it will shit out something that you can't Lightning Strike, like a fucking Prophet of Kruphix.

So yeah, so long as you don't good 3-drops with 4+ sized asses you're fine. But as you can see, for GG you can get a 3/4 Elephant, and they certainly don't want people making a lot of those too early. Not that it matters because you got Serra Angels swinging in on T3 now.

>>51622111
EDH cards are not stopping them from having Modern reprintings, or printing Standard staples at lower rarities. The reason they're doing that is because they've decided they don't want to. It has nothing to do with EDH.

And even if EDH didn't exist, they'd still print things for kitchen table Magic players and casual players, because they literally have always done that and always will.

I agree they should reprint Modern staples more aggressively and bring Standard staples down in rarity. 100%. But that just does not having anything whatsoever to do with EDH.

>>51622235
It's the perception that matters.

EDH can have all the goddamn cards they want so long as every other format gets some love.

Before you were fine dealing with dogshit cards for whatever reason. But now there's a bogeyman to blame, EDH. And while I'm not going to blame EDH, people will and they are.

But if we want to express a tangible problem caused by EDH here's one. In smaller communities, there's a limited amount of table time or FNM time available at a store. If Wizards wants to encourage EDH players to show up with product labelled COMAMNDER, they have to consider the burden on stores. And every additional format, doesn't matter what format, breaks apart focus from other formats and cannibalizes the player base. So if EDH players suddenly want some FNM time, that takes away from Standard time or Modern time or whatever is established in that community. And the focus should always be on formats that sell, namely Standard and Limited.

And while I'm down for large communities, the reality is that it's not sustainable. It's not fair to the store to have to police all these different groups especially one that is boundless as EDH, which comes with all the social pitfalls of a game of Risk with randoms. Formats like EDH need to stay the fuck away or it damages the other formats same with Frontier, Pauper, or even Modern.

>>51622423
Can you actually list some cards that "were printed only for edh" and are apparently ruining other formats? Commander decks are only legal in eternal formats so they don't affect only format you just listed at all.

>>51622697
Well, there's always the big red spell with "random" in the text box. Or the big red Enchantment that does nothing. Or the big useless 9CMC+ Green spell/fatty.

These cards have always existed. And everyone's always hated them and everyone knew in any constructed format there's no way any of them were getting cast. It was just garbage that was only garbage.

But now, you look around and there's one format that reliably gets to buckets of mana. And now it's not just garbage, but EDH garbage.

The cards themselves are not ruining any format. But they're giving people a reason to hate opening crap cards especially in the face of a shitty expensive Standard.

>>51606644
Khans block was flavorful, had good art, decent variety in standard (besides meme abzan). Really the total train wreck started with origins, it's been jacetice league and retarded even story-wise. Both return to zendikar and to innistrad were plain bad, uninspired and only had few cool cards. Conspiracy 2 was good an fun tho.

They pushed too strongly with removal and I can't help feel that it's harming the format.

Also there is too much blue being played. I looked at the top eight this weekend and shook my head. Counterspells under 4 mana are a mistake.

>>51623044
>believing that MaRo is the problem with everything

>>51623003
>tfw people around me call Khans standard shit

I really don't get that. It wasn't amazing but you had GREAT variety in deck building. Just off the top of my head

>mono red burn
>R/G aggro
>Esper Dragons
>UB control
>heroic
>jeskai tokens
>abzan and all its different flavors
>Sidisi Whip
>G/R ramp
>G/W flood the board

and they could all contend at one point or another.

Was Abzan probably the best overall deck in the field? Probably but it's win percentages weren't absurd and had a huge target because everyone expected it.

>>51601228
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?multiverseid=185749

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>>51623713
Hell, I would argue it even started with m10. Wizards managed to get through literally ONE block where they introduced mythics and stuck to their promise of keeping them splashy and "epic".

Then they just make some over-statted creature and slap a bunch of keywords on it and call it good. Lotus cobra (and warren instigator) just put the nail in the coffin. It made it so clear that wizards had no intentions of using the mythic rarity as they originally stated, and instead just wanted an easy cash grab by forcing people to buy more packs.

>>51577607

Blue was like 7/8 pro tour Kaladesh decks

>>51623929
You know there was a pro tour last weekend right? The top 8 had 6 mardu vehicles decks (and 0 blue cards)

>>51623879
>Baneslayer Angel was called the "walletslayer" because it cost $25

man, how naive we all were back then...

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Are there any other good card games? Preferably trading card games?

I hear Eternal is pretty good...?

>>51598989

Vial smasher is unplayable in multiplayer, aka the format it was designed for

>>51600469

Agreed

I think despite the myriad complaints people have, the actual biggest problem with magic is that it's pay to win, and all the other problems are essentially just this problem in different clothing

The reason people hate on tuned edh decks is that they can't afford a sylvan library for every Greek deck, a mana crypt for every deck, a survival of the fittest for their gy deck, and so on

And in standard, the problem is mythics like Gideon being hard to compete with using commons etc

I think the problem can be boiled down to the tension between a collectible card game, where not every card is available, you get to open random selections and finding sought out ones is part of the fun, but then the most popular formats are constructed, where the assumption is that every card is available, and it's abot who can combine them in the most strategic build

That's a problem that will lead to pay2win

>>51621887
Was shadowmoor/eventide bad?
God i love this block flavourwise, shame i started mtg now, when everything is shit

>>51624053

I know I'm just pointing out that the meme that blue hasn't been good since rtr Sphinx's rev days is wrong

I see people repeatedly claiming that 3 mana counterspells are unplayable, and blue and red are unplayable compared to green and white lol

It's not empirically justifiable

Every standard environment is different

>>51624264
>Sylvan, Crypt, and Survival

The sad part is that those are the lower-end of the expensive Staples. It starts getting really ridiculous when you factor in the Imperial Seal for every Black deck, Mana Drain, Moat, and Tabernacle for every UWx control deck, Timetwister for every Storm deck, Imperial Recruiter for every toolbox deck, City of Traitors for every beatdown deck, Gaea's Cradle for every Elf deck, Ravages of War for every land destruction deck, etc

>>51617815
>/threading your own post
still yes they fucked planeswalkers they need to give them flashy abilitys to be worth it but because the retards decided not to apply summoning sickness to loyalty abilities so many of them end up fucking degenerate.

>>51624087
Tbf, the most expensive cards in Standard now are $25, with the exception of Liliana, but she doesn't really count since her price is mainly from Modern, and doesn't even see much Standard play.

>>51623044
are you fucking retarded

>>51624264
I mean, that's certainly an aspect of Magic that's annoying, but it's also an aspect that's literally always existed. so when people say that one standard is worse than another, it probably doesn't have much to do with pay2win

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>>51624853

>>51625203
fuck this fucking card it is op right off the bat 2ww for a 5/5 indestructible is already fucking absurd

>>51625303
>well i suppose when he first comes out its slightly less of a big deal but it is still to much.

I have a horrible feeling at some point they are going to having him turn into a creature with haste though.

>>51625437
oops disregard that implication arrow

>>51625203
what the fuck is that filename

>>51625203
Would it have been that fucking hard to print some unpreventable damage alongside him. Fuck if they had printed unstable footing there would have been some way to deal with him while still ensuring he at least gets to be used for being a creature for a single turn if everybody is on curve. But we did not even get a fucking skullcrack.

Getting rid of core sets was a fucking mistake.

>>51624113
Check out Codex

>>51625758
What was even the point?

>>51625502
Gideon is a fucking unga gorilla that you just slam on the table and he becomes Public Enemy #1 because of how quickly he takes over the game.
You can leave any other planeswalker unchecked for 2-3 turns, but if gideon lives to untap twice you've already lost.

>>51576420
I found out down the line that I don't have infinite money to buy the same cards with slightly different status effects when I could just buy a pack occasionally and make decks to shoot the shit for fun.

And I thought 40k was expensive; MtG Standard is a life commitment. A money sink that only goes down hill.

Also, I know you can actually make back money if you do stuff right, but I'm not that autistic for that kind of skill level shit.

>>51625968
>Make money back
>With a hobby
When you buy a videogame, do you expect it to refund itself by playing it?

>>51626069
I don't buy the new Call of Duty game that comes out every year and is virtually the same thing, so why would I buy a bunch of cards to make a deck that's actually usable in a tournament (at least at FNM) when I'm just doing the same shit over and over with a different coat of paint.

Playing standard is like buying the cheap AAA game that costs $60 with a $40 season pass slapped onto it right out the gate. I'd rather play modern, EDH, or something else that's probably just as expensive but has way less demanding upkeep.

>>51626118
Oh sorry, I thought you were talking about MtG in general
But yea, Standard is like buying every CoD while Modern and EDH are like buying a game you like once in a while

>>51580986

Meanwhile
>Efficient counterspell?
>That's not blue!

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What do you guys think of Magic Duels?

>>51626591
was good in its early more puzzle like incarnations but then it started to turn to shit.

>>51626591

It's fun enough for few hours of single-player

For something to actually play for hours on end like people do MTGO? Completely off the table. It straight up sucks as a multiplayer game.

>>51576420
Once - exactly once - was Standard good, and it was when Time Spiral block was legal. People have complained about it being the worst format forever.

Sets used to contain answers. The original Mirrodin included Shatter.

No graveyard hate in Shadows block, and only overcosted or sorcery speed artifact removal in Kaladesh block.

Learning how to play cards around removal is a core aspect of the game, but Standards current mantra is "you can't interfere with a current mechanic/theme".

Burn, land destruction and effective answer cards are all part of a healthy environment.

>>51624346
First Drafting was considered on rails.
Mana fixing was insane so 5-Color control existed.

Shadowmoore spat in Lorwyn's face with how each tribal color gets switched, which helps nobody. Also it's confusing that these two tribal types you need to be aware of (race and class)

Old magic wasn't all fun and games either

>>51605199

>EMN: Aside from the collosal disaster that was Emrakul, no complaints here.

You forgot lili and grim flayer here.

>>51606542
>"It would confuse new players if people mentioned old things"
god dam i hate this attitude

>>51606652
They said that they new Copter was going to be broken, but they said they rather have something broken then something weak so it'll get a better first impression

>>51628535
Lili isn't an issue; she barely sees Standard play and her high price tag is mostly due to Modern. A la Kommand, a la Nahiri.

Flayer is definitely an issue though. He's Lotus Cobra/Voice of Resurgence all over again.

>>51630305
>Nahiri
>Liliana
>Barely see any Standard play

Can I have some of your drugs?

>>51576420
The problem is that WoTC keeps designing tailor-made strategies so overpowered that the only way to beat them is to dedicate several spots in the mainboard just to beat that deck in question. Week 1, that deck was GB Snakes. Week 2, the CopyCat players start mainboarding 2x Nahiri which shuts down Ballista, so CopyCat takes over the meta. Week 3, the Mardu Vehicles players start mainboarding 4x Shock which shuts down the Saheeli combo, so Mardu Vehicles takes over. I guarantee that the next GP or Open, we will see people mainboarding hate for Vehicles, so another deck will take over.

>>51617468
>Both Oddysey Standards: Upheaval
Upheavel was no where near as broken as either psychatog (I know it isn't broken now but please have some perspective) or FoF, once FoF was out psychatog was just normal deck.
Kam-Rav, despite Jitte, is generally loved, the major complaint of Odyssey Onslaught were the block mechanics (building players decks for them).
Otherwise, you're pretty accurate from what I know.

>>51630980
Are you serious ly complain ING that the Meta-game actually changes and isn't the same stale boring shit week after week, month after month? Not to mention that is not at all the problem with standard. Your opinion is shit. Fucking neck yourself, you turbo-scrub scum

>>51632493
He is saying that wotc designs certain rares/mythics to be the standard "powerhouses" of the set, like gideon, grim flayer, emrakul, copter, etc. which makes playing any sort of strategy that isn't using the premier cards almost impossible. Add that wotc makes these pushed cards in their own twisted vision of what their flawed market research claims is "fun", and you have a shitty, on-rails format that allows for zero creativity or flexibility.

>>51632767
That is not at all what he was saying. He was complain ING that each deck gets hated out untill it drop in meta share. Which is a good thing. But that's not what is going on

The actual problem is what you said. That pushed mythics are needed for any half decent deck, skyrocketing entry price, while neutering control elements like removal and counters, which guarantees the format is midrange hell

>>51592008
this desu barely anyone comes in for standard in our store anymore due to the sharks jumping on anyone wanting to play decks that are not meta

>>51634787
God forbid people don't want to pay money to play against your super awesome werewolf tribal deck

>>51576420
Because fast mana, counter magic, and little thought towards conservation of design space are no longer things. That's why it sucks for me anyway. I want dangerous high power cards that feel rude as fuck. I want tricky, high versatility cards that reward tight gameplay. I want to generate gross amounts of mana at a shocking rate.

Sadly, none of this is exists in standard (no, getting mindslavered by Emrakul on turn 4 does not qualify as dangerous or rude). However, there is a format for people like me so it's not an issue.

>>51622423
Sometimes people show up to my fnm and play D&D. Like are you fucking kidding me? You couldn't find literally anywhere else or any other time to do this shit than the busiest time in the store?

>>51590502

Not necessarily. The mono red budget competitive decks right now are the mono white decks.

>>51607545
I agree. Dovin is overcosted, and Nahiri's tapped bit bothers be to death. Tapped artifact? Come on, just give it to her untapped.

Played GW tokens in a standard night just earlier, I faced more Scrapheap Scroungers than Hearts of Kirans. Of course I was a fucking moron and left my removal in my sideboard so I'd basically have to sacrifice game 1 every time. Still lost hard.

I don't mind standard, but I think the Kaladesh Block has really made the meta stale as hell, when this could have been the perfect time to bridge the older blocks with the next one in some way other than "YOU WILL ALL PLAY VEHICLES AND GEARHULKS NOW, THANK YOU"

>>51620683
I would argue that EDH is actually kind of a savior. IMO, it preserves the real spirit of Magic. It encourages creativity through the singleton limitation, making an "optimized" deck a lot harder to pin down. They therefore tend to run less consistently (no 4-of the most synergistic/best card in the deck allowed), making for fun, unpredictable gameplay. Also, it is much cheaper in the long run, and generally welcoming to new players (it is easy to build a cheap, janky deck and at least have a shot at winning against all but the most tuned/degenerate EDH decks due to aforementioned inconsistency in a singleton format). The flavor of having one legendary card leading your assault is also really cool and (from my experience) allows players to express themselves and really grow attached to their unique deck creation (again, uniqueness/inconsistency is really the hallmark of EDH).

>>51622915
As you said yourself, these kind of cards have always existed, even before Wizards recognized EDH as a format. Wizards always has and likely always will print "bad" cards (Rosewater wrote an article on it at some point), big fat Timmy cards, and the like. Why blame EDH, which actually does the noble job of putting these cards that almost never see play into productive use?

>>51640093
>spirit of magic
Turbo scrub shitter detected. Fucking neck yourself. This whole post reeks of entitled casual who demands everyone else play shitty "flavour decks"

>>51636881
You're right. people shouldn't enjoy their hobby at the game store on a Friday night.


You cock juggling thunder faggot.

>>51640169
But I don't do that. I just really like EDH, and think its unique appeal is too often overlooked. Why would I demand someone else play a different deck? That would be dumb. I am entitled for appreciating a format? I do not understand your animosity towards me.

>>51640093
I am the guy you responded to

I agree that EDH kind of encapsulates that original kitchen table feeling where people just throw together a big pile of cards and play
but the game hasn't been about that for almost 17 years now

I don't have complaints about EDH itself and I think that it is a fine format
my main complaints with it are the fact that it has transformed, quite recently too, from a format that was played by people who just wanted to screw around and make like tribal scorpions or a deck where every card has a chair in the picture to a format that is now being actively encouraged and pushed by WotC. We get the EDH decks that are fine things but the stuff that makes me angry are cards like Consulate Crackdown, you might not understand immediately why this card makes me angry but if I take a second to explain maybe you will. This card exiles all artifacts your OPPONENTS control and costs 5 mana. This mana cost is balanced around the fact that this card can be played against a number of opponents that is greater than 1 making it a horrible card for constructed formats but a great card in EDH. If WotC instead didn't worry about EDH and just printed this card for standard and modern this could have been 4 or maybe even 3 mana and been a really good hate card that would have helped the format but probably would have warped or been too good in EDH so instead we get a bad card.

This can been seen in all the recent major sets and can be seen in tons of cards. Cards are being made and balanced with EDH in mind at the expense of Standard and Modren, cards that are printed in sets that are the lifeblood of those two formats.

This is the problem with EDH. If WotC just went back to printing good cards and didn't worry about EDH then there wouldn't be a problem, but we have moved past that into a new era and I fear we will never go back

>>51639968
That combined with having a -8 makes her bad as a planeswalker but insane as a degenerate combo piece. Having a better -2 but a harder to achieve ult is the perfect fix: she becomes a fair card and a very strong planeswalker.

>>51641156
so you are literally just angry that they print cards for formats that you don't like?

i play EDH and it annoys me that they print cards that are useless in EDH, they should only print cards that are good in EDH.

File: 636084189538464276.png (199KB, 265x370px) Image search: [Google]

199KB, 265x370px

>>51641180
Thesevdays, degeneracy is the only way Planeswalkers that aren't part of the "core 5" are allowed to be good.

Don't believe me? Just look how awful Dovin and Tezz are.

>>51641246
no I am mad that they print cards for formats that aren't meant to be competitive in the sets that are supposed to be for the competitive formats

it would be the equivalent if they took the EDH yearly decks and made one of them so Spike that there was and overpowered that there was no reason to play anything else
or it they printed cards in the EDH decks that were balanced around having a single opponent and were not good for the format due to this case

ultimately I can't make a really good comparison because EDH is a casual format where winning is the secondary objective behind having fun.
Hopefully that explains it a little better?

>>51641264
Damn you're right. Since BFZ, the power level of the Jacetice league Walkers has been WAY higher than the other walkers.

All the non-Jacetice league walkers have been very underwhelming in one way or another:

Garbage: Kiora, Dovin, Tezz

Expensive or Restrictive Mana Cost: Ob, Sorin, Tamiyo, Ajani

Degenerate: Nahiri, Saheeli

Doesn't fit anywhere: Arlinn Kord

>>51641264
The funny thing is that I don't think Wizards intended Saheeli to be degenerate. I read that they actually (somehow) overlooked the copycat combo. Although she has some decent synergy with Sun Titan and several other modern playable cards, without the Guardian, she is definitely balanced, probably even borderline bad.

>>51641156
I think this is a decent point. I do find it a little hard to believe that the designers actually warp the cards to avoid "breaking" EDH. Wizards has already printed a ton of cards that are "broken" in the format, even after officially recognizing it in 2011. Cyclonic Rift comes to mind. They've even included it in their pre-built commander decks. Serra Ascendent, arguably the most broken non-banned card in the format, was printed in M11.

>>51641264
Good, it's almost as if they're learning from feedback. I can't wait for the supershitters to rotate out. In fact, I'm surprised they're just not outright banned in every format. Goddamn those meme decks are cancerous.

>>51640169
Turbo Spike shitter detected. Fucking neck yourself. This whole post reeks of entitled Spike who demands everyone else play shitty "tier 1" decks.