How is a mortal man with only arms and armor, (and without the

Depends on the setting.

If you're in a high fantasy setting, you go up and hit the fucker with a sword, because that's how high fantasy works.

>>51515980
If you're going to assume the existence of the fire-breathing dragon but not the possibility that a fantastic knight could do this through training and willpower, I suggest numbers, poison, and range.

>>51515980
>without the assistance of magic or miracles

Since when has this happened? Every dragon slaying story I've heard of has the knight have a magic item of some sort or the assistance of a divine being. Why are you imparting imaginary restrictions on this scenario?

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>>51515980

>>51515988

Thinking about it a moment, I was oversimplifying.

You can hit it with any kind of weapon. Or shoot it with arrows. Or challenge it with a riddle or some other kind of skill.

Part of the tropes of heroic fantasy is that the monster fights you on a relatively even footing. It might not make sense, but it looks cool and is the most fun to read/watch/play, which is why it's the norm.

In a grittier setting, a single mortal man cannot defeat something like a Dragon without the aid of exceptional planning, magic or military might. It doesn't really go both ways.

Via incredibly tight co-ordination with his team-mates, a strong sense of professionalism, and a plan that was worked out years in advance but still resolves into utter chaos once put into action.

>>51516044
Well there ya go.
I assume with no magic or miracles the knight would have access to whatever equipment he could use.

>>51515980
>supposed to
this confuses the reader

Is it...destiny, that the dragon is defeated? Remember, a dragon is the ultimate monster -- it's the manifestation of all the guilt and evil and nefarious purpose a people can imagine.

Smaug got taken down with a single arrow.

Look at the movie Dragonslayer -- the dragon died through wizardly subterfuge because its time was at an end.

But look at ANY movie where a giganto monster is the focus for the hero -- look at Luke Skywalker vs. the Death Star. He took, down the "dragon" because
>1. he was the hero
>2. it was too big, too evil and too awful for the universe to tolerate

>>51516037
I think you missed the point pretty bad. The question is how does a normal man, with no magic or the like, defeat a monster as powerful as a dragon.

>>51516121

And the answer is that they don't without some form of ridiculous plot contrivance.

>>51515980
Can't be done.

St. George required a magic tree that healed him every night after the fight.

>>51516138
Well there's you go

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Also
>What is Monster Hunter?

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Just stab it in the chest you pussy

>>51515980
By stabing the shit out of it until it dies

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>>51515980
There isn't actually a set size for how big dragons are. They tend to be depicted as bigger than mountains in artwork because it's cool.
In videogames, the biggest dragon I've fought is probably Grigori from Dragon's Dogma, a game where you fight big enemies by climbing around on their bodies and gouging their vitals instead of cutting their ankles. There are probably bigger ones in MMOs but who gives a shit about those, they don't even have real combat. Dragons in Skyrim are pretty small by comparison and are a realistic candidate for hitting really hard with a greataxe.
As far as D&D dragons go, all depictions of them are in artwork so you start thinking they're mountain sized, but I don't think they are. A young dragon is as big as a horse and adults are maybe elephant sized. You can climb around on their bodies in that too if you're playing an edition where martials are allowed to do things.

So yeah just hit them with a sword if they're small enough for a sword to still be deadly, climb onto their back and give them the death by 1,000 papercuts if they're mountain sized.

>also has the ability to breath fucking fire
Why does that matter? Unless you're just a memer who thinks fantasy men should only be as strong and durable as dave from accounting, in which case kill yourself.

>>51516170
>implying monster hunter PCs still qualify as mortal men
Even in their own setting hunters are freaks

>>51516194
>You can climb around on their bodies in that too if you're playing an edition where martials are allowed to do things.

So none.

>>51516182

But doesn't Gurthang technically count as magic? It could talk

>>51516210

4e and to a lesser extent 5e improve things for Martials, although I don't think either has rules for the kind of thing he's describing.

But in D&D fighting dragons relies on the fantasy tropes described in >>51516052

>>51516215
And it didn't help at all, the asshole. The only times it ever did shit was to ruin Turin's life some more.

>>51516221
5e has rules for climbing around on huge and larger monsters in the DMG. It's on page 271.

>>51516194
>As far as D&D dragons go, all depictions of them are in artwork so you start thinking they're mountain sized, but I don't think they are. A young dragon is as big as a horse and adults are maybe elephant sized.
I don't know what edition you're thinking of, but in AD&D an old dragon is 100+ feet long.

>>51515980
In my setting, the answer is guerilla fighters armed with Elephant guns.

Dragonscale repels most steel, but humans outnumber dragons, and nitro-express rounds kill the beast. They're not hard to hit, and they can burn all they like, but eventually one of us will catch it with its pants down.

If I recall muskets had more power than most modern firearms, since most modern firearms are more efficient and you don't need a whole lot to kill a human. By extension, a matchlock arquebus might do the trick if your dragon is weak.

If you have no black powder, then I suggest you use traps. In the Kojiki, Susanowo managed to slay a hydra by getting it drunk. It's not inconceivable you could get a metric shitton of hemlock and cram it into a sheep's stomach, then leave it out somewhere for the dragon to eat.

Collapsing the cave on it might work. Hard to do without black powder. Guess you could try a spiked log dropping from the trees. This fight starts to look like Ewoks fighting ATST walkers. If you're dragons are smart, you'll have to be particularly clever about this.

Its doable. But mostly relies on the dragon fucking up in some way.

>>51515980
Because the plot demands it.

Actually, that'd make a great setting.

You play as the BBEG(Triggered yet), whether it be giant dragon, Warlord, Evil Demigod, whatever.

And because of the high concentration of Narratonium(Thank you Sir Pratchett) you're always destined to lose to some farmboy.

The whole goal of the game isn't to figure out how to win, it's to figure out how to lose with such grace that you still somehow come out on top.

>>51515980
Get a dire rat mount and charge.

With an A-10 Thunderbolt.

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>>51516052
In most myths and folktales if the hero isn't ridiculously, mindbogglingly good at fighting he tends to just cheat. Plenty of stories have heroes lying in ambush and striking when the time is right.

The balance between the two would probably be the hero learning the dragons weaknesses before the fight and using them to win. Distracting the dragon with something that makes it especially angry, diving into it's blind-spot and going for the soft parts between it's scales.

>>51516274
Lol

He'll probably show up too

>>51515980
He doesn't?
If it's a D&D/Pathfinder dragon. Then it usually has at least above average intelligence (except maybe Whites), which means they should know to engage said mortal man with only arms and armor in an open area where it can fly around and fire bomb him to death from a safe distance.

And even if it's not a D&D/Pathfinder. it's still THE Alpha Predator of the region so it'll still probably know to do that.

>>51516154
>a magic tree

Seems pretty fucking heretical for a story about a Christian Saint

ABANDON ALL DELUSIONS OF CONTROL

>>51515980
Why is that knight woman showing off her sexy thighs?

>>51516044
>>51516082
It's left ambiguous whether the arrow is magical or not, but it was forged by Thrór, who was the King under the Mountain of the Lonely Mountain. At the very least it has always been retrievable after being fired, which is unlikely for a mundane arrow.

>>51516501

>2 Kings 2:23
"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head."

>2 Kings 2:24
"And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them"

Since child-murdering druids are apparently part of Biblical canon I don't see why a magic tree is out of place.

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>>51515980
http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/49987503/#49987503

You got an answer the first time, now fuck off.

>>51515980

Crowbar under the scales, spray liquid nitrogen onto the softer tissue underneath, smash with a hammer.

>>51515980
He:
>Waits until it sleeps.
or
>Shoots it with a catapult/ballista/other siege weapon.
or
>hits its weak point for massive damage

>>51515980
>If I recall muskets had more power than most modern firearms

Nah mang. Not even close

>>51515980
Get a group of friends, invest your families life savings in arrows and a bow each, and take advantage of its Reptilian brain to split its attack off as each arrow strikes it, causing it to chase the last source of pain.

Bring lots of arrows.

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If your Beowulf you just crush its heart

>>51516501
Oh, so a magic talking bush is ok but a magic healing tree is too far?

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Pure and selfless faith.

>no miracles

If you call it a miracle, then your faith isn't strong enough.

>>51516592
Why don't you just use your mod powers to delete the thread?

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>>51515980
On high fantasy or mythical settings you do it bt being that badass.
Otherwise numbers, traps, sneak attacks and siegle weapons (like cannons and stuff)

>>51515980

Shoot it till it dies, and pray it breathes its fire on the other thousand guys

>>51515980
Siegfried killed it by hidding on a hole on the ground and stabbing it on the neck when the dragon passed over him (to be fair, most depections of Fafner are more snake/aligator like than the traditional dragon).
In another story he was shallowed and cut his way out of the dragon's maw

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A convoluted scheme involving helicopters, skydivers, nets, and a ballista

A long time ago, when humans had no tech (not even metal weapons), we chased things until they died. Reptiles for the most part require specific living conditions to live.

TLDR: Waves and waves of humans to keep the dragon fighting until it dies of exhaustion. #chosenone.

>>51515980
All of the old depictions of dragons make them look small, shitty, and pathetic. Makes me wonder how anyone was supposed to find them threatening.

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>>51515980
How is mortal man with only spears and rowboats (and without the assistance of magic or miracles) supposed to hunt a whale?

>>51516270
>If I recall muskets had more power than most modern firearms

Musket have about 1700J muzzle energy so about what 7.62X39mm ( the Ak 47 round for the non K/ommando ). Heavier ones used by number of middle east army like the jezail are about 2300J which puts it very close to what 6.8mm Remington SPC (what the US army is moving to) or .270 British ( what NATO almost moved to in the 1950s).

Strong but far from elephant gun strong.

>nitro-express rounds kill the beast

First gen express round had a lot of issue killing rhinos which would be a good stand in for a dragon. Not say it could not be done but it would be a lot of trial and error to get good working cartridge.

Let us now have a moment of silence for all of fictitious pioneer of dragon slaying who died... may the cube take their souls to the great hunting ground in the sky.

PS I like your idea on the matter

>>51516363
That looks like the sickest shit.

>>51517443
Remember, whales breathe fire

>>51515980
One swing at a time.

Havent you played dark souls?

>>51515980
>How is a mortal man with only arms and armor, (and without the assistance of magic or miracles) supposed to defeat a Dragon?

If is a Norse style (think Beowulf) dragon he is not supposed to be able to do that. Dragons are the destroyers of armies and ruination of kingdoms. Normal mortal men do not stop that type of thing on their own. That is deep into the area of team effort.

It will take planing, scouts, made for purpose weapons and armor, a handful of very skilled & brave warriors, and lastly a willingness to take casualties.

>>51517636
PS Beowulf was by NO means a normal man.

>>51517671

In the original epic Beowulf was basically a 20th level Paladin of God.

>>51516037

I don't know; orbital weaponry put a big dent in Feuerschwinge.

>>51516655
Well, it's true that they had more power in the charge. Vut because of utilizing it poorly, considerably smaller portion of that power translated into kinetic energy of the bullet.

>>51515980

The poor beasts are starving since there are not enough food around to feed them.

>>51517394
It was a metaphorical foe that was the knights sins given terrible flesh.

Slaying the dragon was a way to say a knight has "conquered" his sins, and thus become holy, thus closer to God.

>>51516353
A-10. One of the best breath-weapons until we get to Beams.

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>>51518564
Betcha it was also a euphemism for masturbation.

>Spent the night slaying the dragon, if...

>>51517394
A crocodile will fuck you up if you're not paying attention.

>>51517555
Are you just being pedantic or really suggesting that fire-breath is the sole significant factor?

>>51515980
By being so mundane he invokes the reality that a Dragon would be incapable of flight, couldn't reach past its snout, and can't breathe fire.

Also he posts pedantic arguments to make himself feel better about playing editions of D&D where martials aren't very good.

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>>51515980
>How is a mortal man with only arms and armor, (and without the assistance of magic or miracles) supposed to defeat a Dragon?

Step one: remove the dragon's food supply by killing it's main prey animals to extinction and removing other animals away from it's territory.

Step two: destroy and occupy all potential nesting sights and shelter spots for the dragon.

Step three: pollute the dragon's natural habitat to weaken the creature over time.

Step four: after suffering from starvation+toxins wait for the over-stressed dragon to crash on a non-safe spot for it (because no safe caves for it to retreat to, remember part two) and stab it through the eye with a long sword or other thrusting weapon, making sure the tip reaches and penetrates the brain.

This kills the dragon (and the ecosystem).

>>51515980
Dive down its throat when it opens its mouth and wedge yourself in. It'll choke to death, then crawl out

Tire it out.

Men defeated wild animals back in the day because we just kept running after them until they got too tired and then fucked them up.

Dragons would use a phenomenal amount of energy in order to fly and even more to BREATHE FIRE.

If it's dumb like a dinosaur you could eventually wear it down and kill it.

If it's smarter than a man, then no, he's fucked.

Knight has a serbian template and the dragon has a muslim template and you can even have him fight(and utterly destro the dragon) with a sharp stick and a loin cloth if its an iberian template.

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>>51515980
Poison the son of a bitch.

>>51515980
Cold steel and a fiery will, milk drinker.

>>51519741
>keep throwing people at it, at some point it will get tired of eating them

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>>51515980
>dragon exist
>but superpowerful fighters are still unrealistic

>>51519819
>feed it africans
>wait for AIDS to take it's magical toll

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With a singular strike.

>>51516170
Damn, is this really a 3ds game?

>>51516194
>Why does that matter? Unless you're just a memer who thinks fantasy men should only be as strong and durable as dave from accounting, in which case kill yourself.

Pretty much, it's a waste of my time to play as Dave from accounting. Might as well just do some accounting myself.

Same way man has killed anything since the dawn of time.

Using a pointy stick.

>>51515980
>larger than any currently living land animal
Why do you think this?

Historical depictions of dragons were never that large, the idea of super massive dragons is retarded and based upon mythical monsters faced by gods like Thor, not the mythical beasts paladins slew. Look at medieval art. Dragons are only slightly bigger than a man, around the size of a horse.

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>>51519741
>not outsmarting the bastard

>>51515980

Arbalest

Without magic and miracles dragons are physically impossible to survive so he would just have to wait for the inevitable cardiac arrest or spontaneous combustion.

>>51515988
protip: hit it until it dies

>>51520016
Not to mention he's a faggot

>>51516121
Collaborate with many other people to hit it with siege weapons, immobilize it and then poke it to death, poison it or bury it under rubble.

>>51516501
In christain terms 'saint' means 'god or hero of another religion we renamed so you can continue to worship but you're now a christain(tm)'

>>51515980
He doesn't, unless he's really fucking lucky.
In "realistic" scenario it would take a large hunting party to take a dragon down, and they sure wouldn't be using swords

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An A-10 is a good start.

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>>51520115
>Look at medieval art. Dragons are only slightly bigger than a man, around the size of a horse.

Do you also believe that Castles are about 20 by 20 foot sized?

Medieval Art is hardly a reputable source for size and proportion

>>51516274
I'm pretty sure that's Narrativium, not Narratonium
Sorry, pet peeve

>>51516817
>tiny head
Why do so many character sketches do this? I mean the rest of him is fairly proportional, but his head just looks minute.

>>51515980
The specific answer to that question varies wildly upon a number of scenarios, but in general it boils down to a simple philosophy:

>There's no such thing as a fair fight, so make sure it's unfair for the other guy

Now, in the case of the generic late medieval fantasy setting, here's what I'd recommend:

>EXTENSIVELY study the dragon's habits.
What are its physical needs? How often/how much/what does it eat/drink? How often/how long does it sleep? Is there any way these physical needs can be exploited?

>EXTENSIVELY study the dragon's physiology
Exactly what does it take to pierce a dragon's hide? Are there any weak spots to exploit? How far/fast can it fly? How long can it breathe fire? How fast can it run? How vulnerable are its wings?

>EXTENSIVELY study the dragon's psychology
How intelligent is the dragon? Is it more/less intelligent than a human? Does it HAVE to be slain? Is there reasonable alternative? If not, does it have any intellectual/emotional weaknesses that could be exploited?

Once you know the dragon inside, out, and upside down, THEN you will know how it can be killed. Exploit as many of its weaknesses as you can manage, and circumvent its strengths when possible.

tl;dr A man armed with knowledge and armored with wisdom can slay anything, no matter what weapons at his disposal.

>>51519923
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Br%C3%A8che_de_Roland

They can't, at least not if the dragons are as intelligent and physically/magically powerful as most modern depictions make them out to be.

Such a creature predating man, would outright prevent them from even reaching any state of civilization if it actually were alive long enough, and smart enough to realize humans would eventually become a threat to them.

>>51516071
I think you accidentally wrote an issue of Fell's Five

By being pure of heart, silly.

Also being a virgin probably.

>>51521850
>Do you also believe that Castles are about 20 by 20 foot sized?
Yes. That happened. Those dude have just been put in the time out castle. That's why they're all sad.

Idiot.

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>>51515980
Goddamn, it's like you didn't even study Dragonology.
>A lance
>Poison yourself
>Cover yourself in spiky armor
>hide in a mead barrel until the dragon eats you, then stab its innards with all of your knives
>Gouge out its eyes and punch right into its brain
>Ask the dwarves to make you an axe
>Trick another dragon into fighting it
>Steal its pearl

In D&D? Because fighters are never aurally sent up against dragons we'll never know.

>>51515980
all of the posts ITT are just nerds mansplaining
the actual correct answer is rule of cool and plot armor. thats it.

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>>51517394
Even the small ones are usually at least lion sized.

Do you want to fight a flying lion with armour that breathes poison or fire?

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>>51523247
Fuck you, pearls are not for stealing!

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>>51515980
>How is a mortal man with only arms and armor, (and without the assistance of magic or miracles) supposed to defeat a Dragon?

>>51523619
Ah, the old "Descriptive, not prescriptive" approach. I like it.

>>51521241
I really fuckin hate Dave.

>>51518389
Cannons then, with grapeshot in the first volley to keep it grounded. Fire until dead.

Siegfried slayed the dragon with a stealth device (Tarnkappe).

As other anons mentioned in this thread dragons are mostly killed by tricking them or by cheating. Ironically he got killed by a cheater as well

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>>51523619
The answer to all your problems lies in superior firepower. Yes, including that one.

>>51523247
>>Poison yourself

The implication that you must be eaten and digested?

>>51519720
At a certain point you have to ask if the dragon is really the bad guy.

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>>51525145

Well they've certainly broken a lot of relationships.

>>51516254
>but in AD&D an old dragon is 100+ feet long.
Only certain dragons get that big when they're that old. I believe Gold's and Red's get that large, but I could be mistaken.

>>51522623
We know hippos very well and still the only reasonable thing to do in the proximity of an upset wild hippo is run away and pray it doesn't chase you.

Shove your "knowledge is power" faggotry up your ass.

>>51525137
OP asked for ways a mortal man can do it without magical assistance, he said nothing about surviving the victory.

>>51525846
you're empirically wrong, my dude
https://youtu.be/h_oGuUA2hgE

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>>51515980
>How is a mortal man with only arms and armor, (and without the assistance of magic or miracles) supposed to defeat a Dragon?

Heroically.

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>>51516194
>if you're playing an edition where martials are allowed to do things.

>>51515980
>larger than any currently living land animal
shit-tier dragons desu senpai, especially if it's the massive size in your picture
The best dragons are elephant-sized at the absolute largest. Perfect size for mounts, and they can plausibly fit into an ecosystem without needing the crutch of "lolmagic" to explain how they don't eat a country to extinction in a month.

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>>51515980
Dragons used to be smaller, so it made sense.

Modern artists and writers made them fuckheug and it looks ridiculous.

Just look at Tolkien's art vs The Hobbit movies when it comes to Smaug's size. In the book, it's totally reasonable he's killed by a single arrow that pierces his hide. In the movie they had to do some retard improvised ballista.

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>>51516194
And how would you kill him?

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>>51515980

>>51515980
A dragon larger than Lagiacrus/Rathalos is not ecologically sound, and something that size can be killed with horse and lance.

>>51527410
>nigglets
>reasonable
People jump off bridges tied to a rubber band, swim with sharks and eat poisonous food. That it can be done doesn't mean it should be done or that it's less dangerous if done "right".

>>51519529
You're right, dragons not only have fire breath, but also razor-sharp claws, iron-hard scales, wings to bring them out of reach of most weapons, and a tail as thick as a tree which they can utilize as a whip, snapping a fully-plated knight's bones with a single swing.
I'm also willing to bet that dragons are more aggressive and ferocious than whales.

>>51519738
>climb into his fire-breathing inferno tube
Do you want to become barbeque? That's how you become barbeque.

>>51520259
This image reminds me that I've read this as a kid, but I can't for the life of me remember any details whatsoever beyond what is presented in this image, which isn't much.

>>51525450
I probably misspoke by calling them "old" because "old" is a category of dragon age.

The majority of great wyrms (the oldest category) in AD&D are 200+ feet long including the tail. Red dragons can get to 300+ feet.

>>51515980
>and without the assistance of magic or miracles
Impossible
In every single story about a dude slaying a dragon that dude was either a superhuman badass, had divine/magical assistance, or was wieldeing some legendary super weapon

Mundane martials are retarded and so are you for trying to force them on people

>>51515980
Nuclear arms, anti-vehicle arms, orbital arms, combined arms.

(You) need to play and read shit that isn't D&D.

>>51528175
How did such a tiny dragon take over an entire dwarf hold?

>>51516037
Actually there are quite a few dragons slain by mortal men in myth´s without the use of magic or divine assistance.

The week spot seems to be the dragons underbelly, Beowulf, Saint george and Sigurd all killed their dragons with normal weapons. (Sigurd cheated a bit using a "Enchanted" sword)

>>51516912
This took to long to cone up in thread. Also the fight with the dragon in the first episode of escaflone. Just proper planning and equipment i mean fricking cavemen killed mammoths by the heard so its not unprecedented.

>>51529351
To be fair, even piss is "enchanted" in the sagas.

>>51517536
You are goddamn right. Yoshitaka Amano is a fucking boss.

>>51520889
Ya know, the only thing that bothers me about that picture is all the crowns.

>>51522457
>>51522457
By making his head smaller, it makes his body look bigger. It's a cheap and easy way of making something on a 2d plane look big.

>>51515980
What genre?

Epic fantasy, the mortal man got so good at cutting that he transcended the idea of swords, and cleaves it in half from a kilometer away using the edge of his hand.

High fantasy, he has heirloom arms and armour tempered in dragonfire, and a heart full of bravery. After a three day long battle, the dragon finally falls, and the knight may rest.

Low fantasy, the dude is SUPER well prepared. He's using a spear to pierce the scales of the dragon, the tip is coated in poison to slow it down. He's got a shield that can be easily dropped to mitigate the fire, a backup shield for when that one gets slagged, he uses underhanded tactics, and has a team of marksmen operating a set of ballistae on a nearby hilltop, waiting for when the dragon takes flight.

>>51515980
Depends on the setting and a bunch of other shit that is so variable your question is impossible to answer properly, so you can go fuck yourself.

More importantly, dragons can be tricked--and if they can be tricked they can be killed.

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>>51516052
>In a grittier setting, a single mortal man cannot defeat something like a Dragon without the aid of exceptional planning, magic or military might

Saint George would like a word with you.

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>>51515980

They don't.

Most games/stories drastically and very stupidly stretch dragons to sizes that are ridiculous on too many levels.

Your biggest dragons should be great-white-shark sized, which is still pretty horrible for a flying predator with teeth and claws. This is about the maximum size something like this can get until it becomes unbelievable.

>>51515980
I'm relying on my experience gm'ing a supers game where some of the major factions are incapable of having powers

the general SOP for fighting something that much stronger than you is to not fight it at all until you have a plan tailor made for killing it.

So say the dragon sleeps for decades in the base of a mountain: collapse the major airways, vent in amounts of carbon dioxide through controlled burns over the years, maybe you can suffocate it.

That's a shit example, but what I'm trying to say is you'd p much never fight it directly, you'd always need a plan based on information at hand. Also, you never want to be too close the first couple of times, cause the plans usually do go wrong

>>51528240
does he need to eat?

>>51527659
>>51516210
How come this became such a popular meme?
Literally the only edition where martials can't do shit is 3.x.
OD&D, AD&D 1e, AD&D 2e, Basic/Expert D&D, BECMI D&D, 4e D&D all had fighters being one of the best classes.

>>51516194
Even in dragon's dogma, the dragon's can only be killed by (you), the Arisen.

Even their glowing weakpoint is there in order to allow the dragon's to be killed by the Arisen.

Hitting a dragon with a fucking balista does nothing unless you hit in the heart AFTER it has been opened by a blow from the arisen.

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>>51515980
With steel and guts.

>>51525846
>"knowledge is power"
>faggotry

You know when HFY shit has poisoned the mentality of the average fa/tg/uy when an actual, real life saying that is widely accepted is dismissed as faggotry.

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>>51530762
>A regular man without miracles
>Proceeds to mention what is basically a fucking paladin.
To obtain sainthood, one literally needs to have performed a miracle, posthumously or otherwise. Try again.

>>51515980
Well, I think a blackhole bomb killed that dragon in Shadowrun pretty hard. Of course, that depends on what you call "arms/armor"

>>51517502
Got a source on those numbers? I've been able to find them for more modern blackpowder things like 19th century firearms, but never muskets, flintlock pistols, etc.

>>51515980
By will and might.

His armor will be heavy. His arms will be sure.

>>51531893
Not that Anon but to be fair, medieval/early modern guns varied hugely in size so some of them certainly carried more energy than many modern rifles (mostly because they fired a huge, heavy lead ball) but in terms of penetration, for which velocity is much more important, even 5.56 will blow any musket out of the water

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>>51517536
>>51530305

>>51528240
Arms: 10 ballistic missiles with fusion warhead.

Armor: What I have on the launcher.

>>51515980
In GURPS dragons without magic and/or additional protection die pretty fast. Heroic archers easily blind them and wait while they starve.

>>51531203
The arisen has to land the killing blow but anyone/thing can bring it to critical. A ballista will injure it and even open up the heart to a fatal blow, but won't kill it

>>51517262
I fucking love that movie

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>>51515980
Some serious planning, tactical use of the terrain to minimise all the dragon's advantages. And even then, you're bound to fuck up and end up doing insane heroics at the last second requiring serious sacrifices...

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By waiting...

>>51522623

THIS.

During the last glacial maximum, Europe was host to Ursus spelaeus, aka the cave bear. They were as large as current day Kodiaks.

Unlike other contemporaneous megafauna, Humans of the period don't seem to have hunted cave bears for food. Cave bears and humans did compete for living space however.

Male cave bears averaged 1200lb, were 8ft long, and 5ft at the shoulder with teeth and claws to match. Humans averaged 5.5ft tall, wore skins, and were armed with Middle Paleolithic tools.

Ursus spelaeus became extinct 24,000 years ago.

>>51533839
hell yeah

Not to mention usually way extra super hot fire that can melt anything.

>>51516083
I find this terribly boring, Mr. Writerman. Destiny is not interesting. Circumstance and cleverness are.

>>51515980
with the favor of God

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>>51515980
>How is a mortal man with only arms and armor, (and without the assistance of magic or miracles) supposed to defeat a Dragon?
You stab it until it dies.

>but it's big, strong, and can breath fire!!!
What are you? Casul? You need to git-gud.

>>51534590
Rather, destiny should be the cherry on top that poets and bards ruminate about long after the fact, but the actual bulk of it should be various substantial and quantifiable factors.

>>51516083
>implying that the reason that Luke destroyed the Death Star wasn't because he had so much practice killing womp rats in the T-16 Skyhopper back home.

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>>51515980
You get a bunch of guys in padded armor, a bunch of water barrels, big honking iron shields, broadhead bolts, heavy crossbows, and a couple of ballistae with harpoons attached to chains attached to anchors.

This sounds like a lot, but you are hunting a goddamn dragon.

You soak your padded armor in water, get your shields, this is how you will survive the fire.

Fire your broadhead bolts into the dragon's wings, try and get it to fall, let gravity do some damage to this monster.

Failing at that, hit it with the harpoons, let the anchors fuck up its flight mechanics.

If the fall doesn't kill it you shoot the ballistae at it, or move in with halberds and try to poke it to death.

>>51517394
Because monks. Some just couldn't draw to save their life, some refused to depict evil as even potentially greater than good.

The stories they were reflecting had them in no way be the draconic manlets the monks or later renaissance artists depicted.
Remember that the dragons of vortigern could topple castle walls due to their fighting, the dragon of Suffolk encircled an entire hill (and for thread relevance was killed by a crusading knight), and blue Ben was originally envisioned from an Ichthyosaur skull.

Plus there's the fact that while the dog sized dragonlets usually would be a pain in the ass if they blew fire, killing that would in no way be heroic. More pest control.

>>51519741
>>51519819
>>51519867
We'll take your advice under advisement, sir Zapp of Brannigan.

>>51534996
>honey do you smell something burning
>oh fuck we've got dragons again
>I'll get the shovel

>>51535128
I've got your dog-ragons' stat blocks right here.
Climate/Terrain: Any Forest
Frequency: Common
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Day
Diet: Carnivore
Intelligence: Animal (1)
Treasure: C, R, S, T
Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing: 3-12
Armor Class: 4
Movement: 9
Hit Dice: 2+2
THAC0: 19
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 2-12
Special Attacks: Acid Cloud
Special Defenses: Fire Cloud
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: S (4' long)
Morale: Elite (13)
XP Value: 120

>>51529351
Saint George made the fucking sign of the cross before he did his dragon-slaying. How is that not a miracle?

Wait. Wait. You're all wrong here. OP never clarified what he meant by 'defeat'. Bring out the furries and slay its heart.

Shield to block the fire, agility to avoid the claws, get in close and stab the fucker right in his overly-exposed heart.

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>>51535295
The heart, Osborne!

>>51535282
Have you seen St. George's dragon? It's a tiny little thing, any schmoe with a pointy stick and no fear of fire could have done away with it.

for all its might, the dragon really just wants to be left alone

pester it and chase it. Humans are great endurance runners and that is what enabled our ancestors to hunt gazelles in the plains of Africa. We can't catch the dragon, but we can keep following it until it collapses of either exhaustion or heat stroke and then smack it with stones.

>>51527410

this music is highly upsetting

>>51529076

It's something to do with a princess who gets kidnapped and saves herself? The knight she was going to marry ditches her after because her hair was burnt and she smelled of smoke, and she's perfectly happy with that. Otherwise I'm in the same boat as you.

>>51529076

Just did some Google-fu, it's called 'The Paper Bag Princess'.

>>51534664
Now try to kill the Hellkite Drake without cheesing

>>51539760
Fluffwise, Kalameet is more dangerous, and he goes down to what amounts to a ballista bolt and some gitting gud.

>>51539775
I found Hellkite to be more annoying.
His overhead "fire"breath (actually does physical damage) always one-shots me.

>>51516274
Just FYI from a pedant: the correct way to address a knight (or dame swapping, the Sir with Dame) is Sir [firstname] or Sir [firstname] [lastname], never just Sir [lastname]

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>>51535377
>Have you seen St. George's dragon? It's a tiny little thing, any schmoe with a pointy stick and no fear of fire could have done away with it.
I dunno anon, I read this book extensively as a child.

>>51531030
Because D&D 3.14rd Edition and its derivatives are what a lot of anons came in on and refuse to let go of or unlearn all the cancerous bullshit it taught them

>>51529351
St. George is, well, a SAINT, and, although I may be misremembering, I think Beowulf was supposed to have been blessed by God, too.

>>51529288
Being relatively small doesn't mean you can't kick everyone's asses. Also probably all dwarfs, or even all peasants in St. George's legend, could gangbang the dragon if they teamed up. But that's not how people works, normal people are cowards and that's why only heroes fight dragons.

>>51516037
Literally what hero in myths didn't have explicit or implicit divine backing? That's the whole point of heroes.

>>51543166
And now I'm unsuccessfully searching for a scan of the whole thing so I can post it here.

Fuck.

>>51543246
The point's moot really.
Thorin and Smaug both mention explicitly that he's big enough for his wings to cause severe wind, even if the latter exaggerated.

Read Dragonsbane by Barbara Hambly. Her "knight" doesn't wear a shining armor and goes up against the beast with long harpoons coated in the strongest poisons and enchantments the local hedge witch could brew up... and *still* almost dies, even though he was fighting dirty and ambushed the thing.

>>51515980
With a tank

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>>51544070

>>51515980

Recently the party solved this issue with a large amount of explosives, alcohol, the Drakes' love of music and an attempt to fuck it to death.

About par for the course really.

>muh dragon size
Get on my level, this wasn't even the final boss

>>51515980
Lead dragon into some kind of canyon or inside of castle walls

Drop heavy chains and hammer them to the ground

Fire ballista shots with hooks on the back end into the dragons sides and wings

Spreamen charge dragon from all sides and attack joints of limbs

Attach chains to hooked ballista while distracted

Drop chain net over head of the dragon and keep it down with either stone blocks or chunks of the canyon wall

Swarm dragon with glaive like weapons, crowbars, and warpicks to pry scales back

Spearmen attack beneath the lifted scales

>>51515980
You have to get up on top of the bridge, then bait it into using its breath attack. Then when it jumps down off the parish and stomps along the bridge, you rush past its feet into the doorway, and light the bonfire.

The dragon flies off after that, so you can pick up the items on the bridge safely. Just be aware that there's no way to get the Drake Sword once you do this until New Game+, so if you're a completionist, make sure to shoot its tail to get the weapon beforehand.

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>>51515980
Dragons, unlike dinosaurs, are pretty much retarded. So it's easy for a man to beat a dragon. If the same man went up against a dinosaur he'd be fucked.

There's that one series where a drow ranger and a human barb kill a white dragon by dropping an icicle on its head

>>51545974
Reminds me of Susanoo killing the dragon Orochi by getting him drunk and sleepy

>>51515980
I don't think mortal men in that situation can beat Dragons. It should be powerful wizards or an entire army decked out with siege weapons.

>>51531030
I dunno, Falchion fighters and pounce barbarians are still the fastest and most efficient way to get shit killed.

>>51516194
A dragon as big as a bear still has muscles as hard as steel. Even if ya climbed on it it will still throw you off and any injury you'd make would just make it harder. If you want to put thing in perspective youtube those brave bastards who still bullfight or American bull riders.

>>51548429
This is essentially what we did aside from our Bard helpfully asking "is it a girl dragon?" And our Orc then going "I ROLL TO SEDUCE" while the rest of us looked on in shame. If it helps though our rogue lady stuck a talking sword through its face later following everyone aside from one most excellent Dorf getting something like malaria and botfly mixed together.

Then we had to blow up its corpse to make a boma.

The africa campaign was a bit strange.

>>51515980
Weak spots.

It's how Smaug was killed.

>>51552300
Smaug was killed by a hero, using a magical weapon, using advice from a midget relayed by a magical talking bird.

>>51553084
Anyone who can kill a dragon is going to be "a hero" unless your setting is really over the top

>>51553084
It was a former guard from Rivertown shooting his bow.

Admittedly, it has been a few years since I've read the Hobbit, but I don't remember magic in his weapon.

>>51532705
Amusingly in both that era and our own it takes an amazingly large, and not totally dissimilar amount of lead or ammunition to kill a guy. The size and shape of the projectiles vary, as do the rates of fire, but it's actually kind of funny how you still have to put a lot of BOOLET in the air to kill a guy.

>>51543204
Technically, you become a saint after you've died. He may have prayed to God before killing the dragon or not, he may have attributed his killing to divine intervention or not (I don't know the details of the story), but all this is unrelated to him being canonised.

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>>51515980
Or you could always try persuasion and find an alternative conclusion to all this...

>>51533633
Well, they probably will eventually die, yeah, or they might. They might also linger on as a bit of a lesser calamity than before. They would try to eat pretty much everything they could get their hands on out of sheer hunger, or aim for real low hanging fruit both literal and figurative by eating vegetation and defoliating crops and orchards. Also probably cattle and stuff. Or Villagers.

I feel like a dragon could probably be shockingly quiet if it wanted to and while it would harm it's dignity if it was smart enough to have that, I feel like they could. Elephants can sneak up on villages, for instance.

So if they could fly before, maybe they can't fly now. They creep along as this horror of the night, eternally ravenously hungry, devouring all before them, and poisoning or scorching the land depending on their nature.

They might actually wait for cattle to be herded into a barn or something because even a blind animal can probably catch and devour a cow or too if it can't escape. They also might be able to just plain scent animals and people and run them the fuck down.

That kind of thing and hijacking kills from smaller predators.

Even if they didn't manage to successfully get any food, just the attempt of getting at it and angrily blundering around the countryside is gonna mess a lot of stuff up and scare the peasants.

The eyes are a good start if you can't get much else, but you probably need to bring it to bay somehow. Perhaps a blind dragon cannot note the danger of a Scorpion or Ballista aimed at it's eye anymore.

It might also fail to notice dangerous, but obvious traps a sighted animal would see. A really really big rock or landslide, or the like.

>>51515980
>dragon
>land animal

>>51553725
>larger than any
Someone failed reading comp

Obok Meatgod way.

You just keep on hitting it.

over and over and over again.

just never stop.

>>51543383
>>51543166
The dragon on the welsh flag is the one he slayed as far as I know

>>51553138
It was a former guard from Rivertown, descendant to the lord of the land. Being royalty generally makes you a hero, especially if you're the last one.

Pretty much anything made by elves or dwarves is magic in LOTR universe. Mithril Shirt that stops all weapons is magic. Any weapon with a name is probably magic too.

>>51553084
>>51554688
Bard used his lucky black arrow.
Nothing magical about it at all.

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>>51515980
divine intervention

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>>51519923
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoJUksUjbto

>>51531203
While thats true, nothing is stopping a better equipped nation from using ballistas, chains, hooks and fluid to permanently hogtie the dragon, piercing its flesh.

Then again, Ancient Dragons like Grigory tear trough castles, fortifications, cities and mountains like paper.

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>>51544041
I really liked this book. Gonna check out the one you recommended, thanks!

Poisoned arrows fired from a bow or crossbow. Simple.

Failing that, trick or goad it into falling on you while using a piercing polearm.

>>51515980
I'm gonna go with Conan the Barbarian on this one:

>"A devil from the Outer Dark,” he grunted. “Oh, they’re nothing uncommon. They lurk as thick as fleas outside the belt of light which surrounds this world. I’ve heard the wise men of Zamora talk of them. Some find their way to Earth, but when they do, they have to take on earthly form and flesh of some sort. A man like myself, with a sword, is a match for any amount of fangs and talons, infernal or terrestrial."

>>51516210
>>51516221
>Oh you want to climb on the dragon?
>roll an athletics check
>okay you grabbed onto the dragon
>now roll acrobatics
>okay you are now climbing the dragon
>roll another athletics check
>okay you hanged on
>now roll a nature check to find a vital point
>okay you passed, now roll to attack, at disadvantage, the dragon is shaky you around
>you hit the dragon in a vital spot, its an auto crit
>dragon still has 150 hp though

spending several turns when you could of accomplished far more by just attacking normally.

5e is dumb, attacking someone with a dagger while they are asleep isn't even a guaranteed kill either.

>>51519741
>we just kept running after them until they got too tired and then fucked them up.
wrong.
We trapped and wounded them and chased them from there.

>>51558265
Sounds like shitty GMing to me.

>>51533635
Actually pawns can finish them off just fine. The final blow just needs to hit the heart. Pawns are just kinda shit at aiming for the big glowing weakpoint.

>>51533633
What is Nictating Membrane?

>How is a mortal man with only arms and armor, (and without the assistance of magic or miracles) supposed to defeat a Dragon?

That ain't no man.

>>51516121
>I think you missed the point pretty bad.
When this happens, its because the person trying to make the point is a moron.

Op is basically asking a question that is easily answered: mortal men cannot beat a dragon without magical or mechanical assistance. This thread is just like op: fucking retarded.

In my setting, dragons are kaiju sized arcane engines of death, created in a moment of desperation against something slightly less dangerous by a very powerful wizard. They breed once a millenium, and lay eggs like sea turtles; about 40 to a clutch. There have been 3 great dragon spawnings. In the history of the world, there are less than 10 that have ever been killed, and every time it took an army, with a very large number of wizards, all willing to sacrifice themselves.

>>51524168
O hail, O hail artillery
King of battles' life for me

>>51515980
>How is a mortal man with only arms and armor, (and without the assistance of magic or miracles)
>or miracles
He's not. The point was that God empowered mere men to slay such creatures.

>>51560305
/thread

>>51523619
That's not an abrams.

>>51516533
it was a masterforged arrow made of possibly indestructible material
you can always retrieve what you can't break

not necessarily magic, possibly forged with some sort of non-mundane technique, but that doesn't imply enchantment

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>>51543202
>That glorious feeling when you grew up on you're parents AD&D books, and never touched anything newer then 2e

>>51517502
>6.8mm Remington SPC (what the US army is moving to)
>US abandoning 5.56 NATO anytime in the next few decades
Hahaha no.

>>51523619
>posts a Chally II

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>>51515980

Faith.

Of course some of skeptics will call it a miracle, but only because your hearts are too tainted to see, that god's love will come to true and pure believers.