Planescape General and Q&A

What's the deal with Pandemonium? In Milton, it's the capital city of Hell. In Planescape, it's a bunch of windy caves. It should have been an urban layer of the Abyss or the capital city in Nessus.

>>51483532
Is there somewhere I can read up on all those advanced metaphysics?

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>>51485896

Pandemonium is the plane of insanity, plain and simple. It represents the interpretation of CN/CE as stark, raving barminess. Its winds drive the lowliest human and the mightiest of celestials mad.

I like Pandemonium's utterly alien environments (windswept tunnels where gravity is oriented towards the walls, and rivers float in the middle). It is easily the Outer Plane with the most harrowing environment to physically travel through. Its bottommost layer, Agathion, also happens to be an ideal prison and vault for many creatures and valuable objects, due to the sheer isolation of its air pockets.

The following sources contain the best overview of Pandemonium and its many sites, from the lunatic carnival called the Cynosure to the mirror-filled Cavern of the Self:
• 2e Planes of Chaos: The Book of Chaos, pages 80-101
• 2e Planes of Chaos: The Travelogue, pages 32-39
• 2e Dead Gods, pages 104-115
• 2e Doors to the Unknown, pages 40-45
• 3.0 Manual of the Planes, pages 96-99
• 3.0 Bastion of Broken Souls, pages 15-19
• 3.5 Planar Handbook, pages 157-158; 171-172; 177-178

In the Aeneid, the god Aeolus keeps the winds captive in a series of caves on his island where they raged impotently until released. I always wondered if that was the inspiration for D&D's Pandemonium.

I have more technical kind of questions. I've been thinking of running Dead Gods in 2e for my group (all of us have played the system).

1. Any general tips/chapters you guys found hard to run?

2. What source books should I turn towards for creating high level chapters? More specifically, what sort of gear should I allow for achieved planewalkers?

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>>51485896
>>51486261

My favorite site of Pandemonium is Howler's Crag, fully detailed in pages 95-96 of 2e Planes of Chaos: The Book of Chaos.

>The Crag's built on the grave of a power whose followers once ruled the planes, a power of travelers, portals, and planewalkers. The power was a phoenix, and the chant goes that it and its followers were not immortal, but controlled the secrets of reincarnation. The other powers grew so jealous of this nameless one that they cast it into Pandemonium, and destroyed its followers and petitioners. When it died it became the Crag, and the remnants of its divine spark give the stone its magic.

>Cutters say that the Crag attracts barmies, werebeasts, and outlaws the way honey attracts flies. Sure, anyone's a bit touched in Pandemonium, but something about the Crag brings the dangerous ones from all over the realm. Shouters are the most common, but years ago an order of mystics called the Brotherhood of the Phoenix took up residence in a series of burrows. Some stories say that the Brotherhood has long since died out, but others say that they remain at the Crag, digging below it to recover their power's body.

I like the idea that long, long ago, possibly even before the vaati and the obyriths each rose to power, there was a phoenix of such might and majesty that it ruled over a large portion of the multiverse. Howler's Crag, then, would be the last remaining monument to this truly ancient empire.

Add that to page 95's explanation of Cocytus itself:

>The second layer of Pandemonium is often called the "layer of lamentation." That's because the whole blamed layer sounds like a wailing session of the most mournful bunch of funeral attendees a basher could imagine. It's enough to put a prize banshee to shame.

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>>51486505

>But this caterwauling isn't the result of mourners; it's just the bleeding wind. The wind here is shriller than in Pandesmos, and the tunnels on this layer tend to be smaller and twistier as well. As a matter of fact, they seem to've been carved intentionally, just to make the winds wail this way. The entire layer bears the marks of having been hand chiseled at some time in the far distant past. It would've been long enough ago that over the ages the wind has smoothed them a bit, and that whoever dug them has long been forgotten. Not even the Guvners seem to know who did it (though they're apt to nod sagely, like they do, and then change the subject, to cover their ignorance). Likely it was some poor sod of a power who hung around in Pandemonium too long and went blinking crazy, then lost all its worshipers and is now rotting away in the Astral Plane somewhere, forgotten.

Could Cocytus have been chiseled out in mourning of this great phoenix, perhaps?

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>>51485928

The Serpent, hypothetical über-deity of all magic, if not the force of magic itself:
• 2e Die, Vecna, Die, page 3, as well as various other pages in the book that tell of how Vecna's faith portrays the Serpent
• 3.0 Manual of the Planes, page 88
• 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, page 238
• 3.5 Dragon Magazine #359, pages 28-29

"The Serpent" simply being a figment of imagination of Vecna's brilliant mind is 3.X-canonically the "most likely" explanation for "the Serpent" as per pages 28-29 of Dragon Magazine #359. In my personal opinion, it is not as plausible as "the Serpent" being a true member of the Ancient Brethren, but the official stance is otherwise.

If you do buy that "the Serpent" is nothing more than a figment of Vecna's imagination, then you will have to explain why Sharlee from page 238 of the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook also claims to have been given an artifact of godlike magic from "the Serpent."

>>51486495

1. Make sure you read the adventure in advance. The adventure isn't quite full of bullshit, but there are certain aspects which would are pointlessly obtuse and would cause modern-day players to flip the table and punch you out (the biggest offender is the rusty sword in Tcian Sumere). Make sure you read ahead and prepare for this sort of thing - as well as obstacles or problems that your party could defeat or overcome in seconds with their abilities/spells.

2. Do you mean high level characters? Real bloods/planewalkers should have a mismatch of equipment from all over the multiverse, and you should allow them to have just about anything - but make sure that you make it unique and give it a place in the game's world. A sword forged on Mechanus would be very different to one forged with similar enchantments but on the slopes of Mount Celestia, if only in appearance, history and name. Personally, I think a Planewalker from the 2e days would have a literal batcave full of crazy magical items that are only worthwhile on a single plane at best. I don't know if you're going to use the rules for magical item bonus attenuation, but if you do you should expect well-lanned adventurers to have vast piles of plane-specific items.

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>>51486843

That should be "2e Die, Vecna, Die, page 2," not page 3.

>>51485928

The True Words/The Language Primeval, the
• 2e Dead Gods, page 98
• 2e Die, Vecna, Die, pages 2-3; 150-151
• 2e College of Wizardry, pages 43-44
Bonus: Frozen Words: 2e Inner Planes, page 73
Bonus: Frozen Words: 3.0 Monster Manual II, page 127

The draeden, tentacled brains of the previous multiverse:
• 2e Inner Planes, page 72
• 3.5 Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss, page 126
• 3.5 Dragon Magazine #353, page 39
• 3.5 Dragon Magazine #359, pages 28-29

The leShay, elf-like beings from a previous multiverse:
• 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, page 202

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The Source (Believers of the Source), the Great Unknown (Athar), True Death (Dustmen), and the Cadence (Transcendent Order):

These are all hypothetical "higher realities," and any lore on them is effectively faction lore. I would recommend reading through the relevant factions' sections in the original Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set's A Player's Guide to the Planes, the Factol's Manifesto, and the Planewalker's Handbook.

As a bonus, page 46 of 2e On Hallowed Ground confirms the Source to lie in the Ethereal Plane, and page 44 of the 3.5 Planar Handbook tells of a hypothetical "Crystal Cask of the Great Unknown."

Other multiverses through the Shadow:
• 3.0 Manual of the Planes, pages 61-62
• 3.5 Lords of Madness, pages 8-9

The Far Realm:
• 3.0 Manual of the Planes, pages 211-213
• 3.0 Fiend Folio, pages 108-110
• 3.0 Epic Level Handbook, pages 224-226
• 3.5 Lords of Madness, page 8
• 3.5 Elder Evils, page 32
• 3.5 Dragon Magazine #358, pages 58-63
• The Kaorti Ubercyst: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030916x
• 5e Dungeon Master's Guide, page 68
• Virtually every monster entry that mentions the Far Realm

The hypothetical Ordial Plane, purely a fan theory, exclusive to the 2e version of the cosmology:
• https://mimir.net/mapinfinity/ordial.html
• http://realmofadventure.wikia.com/wiki/Ordial_Plane

The University of Metatheory, a research center for all that lies beyond the multiverse:
• Planes of Conflict, poster maps, Elysium's City of the Star

Now, I have a request for anyone familiar with Spelljammer. Could I please have a list of canonical Spelljammer sources that detail the race known as the "juna"?

>>51486391
That actually sounds pretty accurate. They do crib a lot from Greek Mythology, and you can actually go visit the imprisoned titans in the Vortex of Madness adventure.

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I've recently noticed that, in 5e, Zariel is listed as the ruler of Avernus, not Bel.

How did that happen? Has WotC exploited it yet?

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>>51490350

According to page 64 of the 5e Dungeon Master's Guide:

>The archduchess Zariel rules Avernus, supplanting her rival, Bel, who has fallen out of Asmodeus's favor and is forced to serve as Zariel's advisor. Tiamat, the Queen of Evil Dragons, is a prisoner on this layer, ruling her own domain but confined to the Nine Hells by Asmodeus in accordance with some ancient contract (the terms of which are known only to Tiamat and the Lords of the Nine).

>Zariel's seat of power is a soaring basalt citadel festooned with the partially incinerated corpses of guests who failed to earn the archduchess's favor. Zariel appears as an angel whose once-beautiful skin and wings have been ruined by fire. Her eyes burn with a furious white light that can cause creatures looking upon her to burst into flame.

Another interesting fact about Bel, at least before he fell out of favor with Asmodeus, can be found in page 129 of the 2e Factol's Manifesto explains:

>The Sign of One's secret and unusual resources include a significant resident of Baator. See, the Signers helped the pit fiend Bel obtain his position as leader of the host of Avernus through the power of imagining. Bel has vowed to perform any favor of like magnitude for the faction whenever the factol demands payment.

One would wonder if Bel's vow to the Signers still holds.

>>51491852
>One would wonder if Bel's vow to the Signers still holds.
I would imagine that such deals were crafted to take any eventuality into account, including this one.
That said, just because their deal with Bel is still active doesn't mean that Zariel in lacking in words to say to the people who helped her get locked up and tortured beneath her very own fortress.

>>51483532
Is the existence of the Ordial actually necessary? Why can't travel from the Inner to the Outer planes just be rerouted through the Material?

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>>51492149

Frankly, no. It is completely unnecessary, and it fits in neither 3.X's version of the Great Wheel nor 5e's version.

I cannot think of anything interesting to actually include in an "Ordial Plane" that could not also be placed in the Deep Ethereal, the Border Ethereal, or the Astral Plane.

It is abundantly clear that planar and psychic energies have to travel through the Prime anyway. As per 2e's dream metaphysics ( https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/50939985/#50941783 ), people dreaming in Sigil can beam their consciousnesses to the Veil of Sleep in the Ethereal Plane. When those dreams end, all the thought-energy travels to the Astral Plane. All of this requires psychic and planar energies to travel through the Prime.

One idea I have proposed in a previous thread ( https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/51334524/#51373710 ) is that Limbo could be the bridge between the Deep Ethereal and the Outer Planes. It would certainly explain the similarities between Ethereal protomatter and Limbo's raw chaos.

>>51492307
Speaking of the Deep Ethereal, what does part of the Ethereal or the Shadow being "Deep" actually mean?
I've always understood it as meaning that those sections aren't conterminous with the Material (and are thus harder to access); am I mistaken?