Why are Warlocks evil?

>>51480997
Usually because they're in league with not-Satan, not-Cthulhu, particularly dickish faeries, or something else powerful and spooky.

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>>51481020

This, really. Most incarnations of warlocks are individuals who enter into pacts with malevolent or incomprehensible entities in exchange for power.

>>51480997
As above, also in the real world a warlock was basically a man who sold his soul The devil in exchange for being a wizard or some shit.

As compared to the historical witch, a female who sucked The devil's dick for the same.

>>51480997

Because they have "war" in their name. Make love, not war :^D

>>51480997

They aren't. Stop asking questions with a fundamentally incorrect premise, you rancid queef blasted from a dead moose's cunt.

>>51481161
>trade your soul to an elder being/demon/faerie with questionable morals for power
>not evil

Pick one, and only one.

>>51481213
Well, player character warlocks can definitely swing neutral, particularly if they aren't especially loyal to the entity holding their chain.

>>51480997
Coincidence.

>>51481136
My class is Lovelock.

>>51481415
That they might, but the fact still stands, they kowtow with higher entities for power. Most of these entities are kinds of daemons. Even those that aren't such as fairies are still hardly friendly enough to humans.
Fairies of old, where they got inspiration from, could be delighted seeing our suffering.
And lastly, being neutral doesn't mean not being the most dickish of cunts.

>>51481415
While true in a sense, they have also clearly and deliberately caused a soul (hopefully only their own) to suffer eternal damnation/suffering/purgatory by enacting this pact in the first place. I believe that is an evil act no,matter how hard you spin it.

Also, in said pact is usually a clause that states "If you (the warlock) fail to meet my (elder power) expectations or fail to act in accordance with the rules I have set down, I reserve the right to revoke your power."

If you make a deal with a Devil, and you turn around and use that power for good, they will come to claim your soul. So basically, you're evil or dead.

>>51481662
>>51480997

They aren't. Stop sucking cock.

>>51481701
I can't, I enjoy it too much.

>>51481701
Says demon's cocksucker. Gtfo, bitch.

>>51481136
Does that mean that Wizards love The WIZ? Or do they piss everywhere?

>>51481701
I have demonstrated how a Warlock is evil.
I would like you to demonstrate how a Warlock can be good and continue to be a both A) alive and B) a Warlock.

Also I enjoy sucking cocks and will continue to do so.

>>51481734

Warlocks can make a pact with any creature of sufficient power, not just demons or devils. Fuck off.

>>51481804
Make a pact with a non-evil creature. There, done. Get rekt.

>>51481818
How does that make you any less of a cocksucker, cocksucker?
Faires aren't good, so you're gotta be evil, period.

>>51481838
>>51481818
And which creatures would that be?
I have never heard of a Warlock making a pact with an Angel.

>>51481415

This.

>>51481213
>b-b-b-b-b-but muh demon pact

Not inherently evil.

>>51481483
>neutral might as well be evil

Yeah, around here we call that desperate damage control.

>>51481662
>hurting yourself is evil

Nope.

>all Warlocks follow demonic entities

Nope.

>>51481818
Amusingly, under this definition, one might consider Paladins to be Warlocks.

>>51481863
>he's never heard of a Feylock
>hoots of derision intensify

>>51481866
Neutral actions might be evil and the soultaint is a fact, keep on that damage control.

>>51481894
>fey
>creatures who steal children, delight in suffering and are huge cunts.
>not evil.

Nice try. Let's go again.

>>51480997
Because the word warlock literally means oathbreaker/deceiver? I know you want to be special but you have to understand the whole idea of a warlock is evil.

>>51481855
>>51481863
>>51481886

That definition has nothing that makes Paladins and Warlocks the same.

Nothing stops a Warlock from entering a pact with a Celestial, for example. Or Good-aligned Fey. Despite what autists on /tg/ think, such things can and in fact to exist in most settings. Or maybe their patron is an elemental lord. Or a Wizard of cosmic and transcendent power who wants a mortal servant while they fuck off in the Astral Plane.

One of the best things in 5th Edition is the Positive Energy Warlock and the Seeker Warlock.

>>51480997
I never saw the point, mechanically, to add warlocks. Wizards do practically everything they do, but better and more reliably. Warlocks need to make bids for power while wizards simply spend time reading to acquire the EXACT same power.

It seems to me that warlocks were added solely to have an edgy angle on playing a wizard. Thematically they have so little different from them than wizards, except for maybe the lack of independence, that I think the only reason they were added is to homebrew more specific societal things to interact with players.

I still don't see why anyone would play a warlock instead of a wizard, core rulebook

>>51481980

Flavor, basically.

Wizards in most fantasy games including D&D are basically STEM major power fantasies. Not everyone enjoys magic articulated as "if we integrate the ley line equations with the proper quadratic alignment of neo-icieum we can create a blizzard!". Playing a nerd with a book is one way to play a magic wielder but it gets tiring when that's the only way.

Warlock offers a more occult angle. Less magic algebra and more spookiness.

>>51481804

Necessity
> "OH GODS EVERYONE I KNOW AND LOVE IS GONNA DIE IF I DONT DO SOMETHING. Hey evil being, I know you're evil, but gimme dat power, I need it to protect people and I don't have time for a training montage."

Forced Upon
> "Your soul has been sold to me by your father, you will do my bidding. Here, have a fraction of my power, you wouldnt be able to do anything otherwise."

Entity doesnt know someone is using its power
> "So, I maaay have figured out how to channel the power of Vldarshgn the Sleeping Leviathan. Next step, using it for the betterment of everyone!"

Entity isnt necessarily evil
> "Alright boy, I'll lend you some power, but you'll be my pawn in the mortal realm. No I don't plan on bringing destruction to your land, I honestly just want to dick over Blorgash the Pestilent since he destroyed a circle of druids that worshipped me."

That's four situations, do you want me to carry on?

>>51482050
I want to put the fear of [Entity name] on Blorgash

>>51482050
While those situations are nice and all, they only deal with acquiring Warlock power, but fail to remember that the kind of entities that make these pacts force Warlock to carry out their bidding. Especially your first two examples, if the Warlock goes against the wishes of the entity, that entity then claims the Warlock's soul.

>I need to protect people
You are didn't read the terms and conditions, your soul is mine

>daddy had issues
not my problem, two free souls

>sleeping elder power
Then wakes up because someone is stealing power. Time for devastation

>non- evil entity
Doesn't make warlock pacts in the first place. What you get is a sorcerer/paladin/cleric/druid etc.

Please continue, these are amusing at the very least.

>>51482203

>non- evil entity
>Doesn't make warlock pacts in the first place


This is a really important distinction. Pelor doesn't visit mortals in their dreams or at a crossroads to tell them unlimited power can be theirs if they pledge their souls for them. His power is there for anyone with the strength and moral foundation to wield it and he only takes it from people who abuse it. There's no dotted lines.

Good entities don't need to finagle or coerce or make deals to get mortal followers. A Good hero will do their work regardless of their help and one who has to be convinced isn't really worth their time.

>>51480997
Because good warlocks are called druids or clerics.

>>51480997
#NotAllWarlocks

>>51481863
Some eldritch abomination, it's not evil because it's morality is completely alien

>>51480997
They aren't, only some are. The evil warlocks are the narrow mainstream conception of them as Satan worshipping magic dudes gifted with power in exchange for their souls.

In many RPGs, warlocks (and witches) occupy a much larger concept of a non divine entity gifting power in exchange for service. From powerful angels and other celestial beings, to infernal lords and princes, to the inscrutable Fey, to elementals lords and kings, to things from between the stars. All of these grant a smidgen of their power in exchange for spreading their influence, whether that is simply chaos, founding cults, or for more precise missions. It has even been said that there are warlocks and witches who get their power from minor gods.

>>51482203
>non- evil entity
>Doesn't make warlock pacts in the first place. What you get is a sorcerer/paladin/cleric/druid etc.
A sorcerer is someone with magical lineage, a Cleric is gifted with power by a god through faithful devotion, a druid is gifted with power by powerful nature spirits or nature gods by faithful devotion, a paladin is a warrior of a god gifted with power by faithful devotion. There are plenty of good entities that aren't gods which need mortals to carry out their affairs. Making a pact isn't some soul selling business, but entering into a business arrangement for power at the cost of service. Even gods would do this with certain people who aren't exactly faithful but would serve as an excellent means towards a certain goal.

>>51482247
Maahes the Guardian Beast, a powerful angel, needs tasks carried out by some mortals, so he invests some of the minor divine power he has to them, making them a warlock (or witch in PF). Maahes doesn't have the power of a full god and thus is unable to grant cleric powers, but he has enough to fuel a few people to serve him and grant knowledge of certain magical abilities.

>>51482203

> Terms and Conditions
So suddenly a selfless sacrifice is an evil act? To sacrifice your own soul in order to preserve the lifes of others is evil?

> Inherited Pact
Still doesn't make the Warlock evil, in fact, the warlock wasn't even the one who made the pact. The entity might be evil sure, but the warlock didn't exactly have the choice in this scenario, and as far as I understand it, we are discussing the morality of the warlock first, and that of the entity only as a consequence.

> Leviathan wakes up
That still doesn't make the character evil. Stupid perhaps, arrogant almost definitely, but not necessarily evil depending how he uses the power. He might have doomed the world, and even might be remembered in history as an evil person, but the person itself may not be evil, especially if their aims was to improve the world, rather than destroy it

> Not a dick entity
Why wouldn't it though? I mean, DnD 5e has things like the Undying One and Fey. And before you link me back to >>51481916 remember I'm talking DnD 5e here, which by default has several fey that aren't evil (complete dicks maybe, but the chaotic neutral type)

As for new scenarios

Demon-Enhanced Demon Hunter
> Turns out that in this scenario's universe, the best way to kill a demon is with another demon's power, hence the secretive Order of Hunters performs contracts with demons, damming themselves, but protecting so many others.

Entity falls outside our spectrum of morality
> Valriagth the Eternal is a completely alien being and for reasons inscrutable to mere mortals, gives power to the warlock. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth yeah? Especially if the horse could crush you with less than a though.

>>51482489

In the original flavor text for WoW warlocks, it describes them as almost universally possessing capricious and cruel personalities.

If you read into the lore a little, you find in almost all societies warlocks are frowned upon and disliked for consorting with dark powers. But they're more or less tolerated because the original point was every faction in the game is on the ropes, and warlocks are diverting those powers towards those factions' enemies (for now). The Forsake are the only race where warlocks were ever allowed to roam freely.

However, for gameplay purposes they couldn't make a class which was actually kill on sight for most NPCs.

By this point though I feel Blizz more or less forgot about all of this.

Can a warlock that is sufficiently powerful create a new warlock by forming a pact with another person? Would that practically, though maybe not formally, make the second warlock a subcontractor of the first warlock's pact? And continuing down that line of thought, could the second warlock then create a third warlock by acting as the patron in a new pact? If this chain could then be extended, or if several of these signatories could each be contracted with one warlock, then in theory you could organize organizations or even entire societies where everyone is a warlock and the position in the chain of subcontractors correlates with one's standing within the hierarchy of the collective.

>>51482730
Granting warlock pacts requires you to be greater than HD 20. So we are talking such entities as Demon lords, named unique angels, Fey lords, and such. Basically, only epic warlocks would be able to do such a thing, and even then only for a very limited number of people.

>>51481765
It is their magical realm, after all

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>>51482730
>Warlock pyramid schemes
I am so using this

>>51482730
At first I was got an idea about contractual crusades between warlocks of different pacts, but then it struck me that the patrons would be irreplaceable in a much more considerable way than any military general from actual history, and that makes me think that assassination and precision killing might be a more likely doctrine to be adapted, supposing that the legwork subcontractors could have the means of killing a patron that might be higher up than themselves in their respective pact "pyramids."

Kinda reminds me of the Genocide Men from Requiem Chevalier Vampire. People who are basically WMDs because when they die they wipe out such a countless number of enemies.

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>>51482730
Oryx pls

>>51482730
Your GM might allow something like that if you ask them. Like, say you play a warlock who's made a pact with a fey. You negotiate something with the fey, maybe pay some price or accept some new terms or conditions, and in exchange you get to make a contract with some other character under certain terms (some fine print can be fun in these situations). Then let's say that your subcontractor gets the ability to cast some nerfed cantrip or has some sort of linked form between you. I think it can be a decent plot hook. I'd probably treat it more as a subplot, though.

>>51481701
>>51481818
Damn anon, that's an awfully large amount of salt for the conversation.

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Good and evil are just words, and why bother with those when you can have POWER?

>>51483791
>Good and evil are just words
Detect Evil isn't just about flipping through a dictionary or a dissertation on dualist morality.

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>>51480997
Because the translation of warlock isn't "male witch" warlock translates into "oath breaker".

Technically anyone who has ever broken an honor bound promise or committed a vile evil act of betrayal to someone who they were loyal to is a warlock, male or female, with magical abilities or without.

>>51481020
>>51481070
>>51481117
Pic related you fucking tards.

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>>51482730
>warlock pyramid scheme
That can't be good.

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>>51482730
I could see it

>>51484419
I'm not understanding why Lorkhan is relevant, but I've always love his expression.

>>51484698
If any Patron would appreciate a good hustle like the warlock pyramid scheme, it'd be Lorkhan.

>>51484014
And Wizard means sage or wiseman, but this is about fantasy you autismal pedant.

>>51484014
What the literal translation of the word is does not encompass it's actual meaning you fucking sperg. Wendigo means Hungry Winter but that doesn't mean the legends are about snow that needs a cheeseburger.

>>51480997
Because they only dress in black, red, and purple.

>>51480997

Wizards are chill fuckers who are all about balance of the natural order and shit, they use magic wisely and in adequate portions.

Warlocks are stupid, arrogant, ignorant or crazy sorcerers who see themselves above the restrictions more relaxed wizards place on their activities, outside the limitations of sanity, tradition or convention.

They're not evil as much as they are greedy dicks gripped with hybris, but in the end they usually pay dearly for messing with fire so to speak anyway.

>>51480997
They're......not?
They usually can be anything they want.
Their patron however.....well that's a different story.

>>51480997
they break oaths dude, they're fucking assholes.

>>51480997
They are, ultimately, granting a suspicious or downright malicious otherworldly being influence over their home dimension in exchange for magical power.

But I suppose it's perfectly possible to play a neutral or good warlock, if their motivations are good, regardless of their patron.

>>51482032
>>51482050
Good posts.

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>>51484014
What does Necromancer literally translate to, anon?

What do Necromancers actually do?

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>people ITT implying that pacts with not-technically-evil beings like Elder Gods and Fey are not a fucking 90 degree slippery slope

>>51488123
>implying accepting their alien morality system doesn't allow you to transcend good and evil

>>51488123
In the case if the Fey pact, nearly all examples given in 5e aren't evil or totally duplicitous. I think the only ones are ancient hags.

>>51488167
I was wrong. There is also the Prince of Frost and the Queen of Air and Darkness.

>>51483905
Do you ever wonder if those spells were designed by thinking beings (wizards or gods) and if so how much work it took these beings to decide whether, say, littering made someone evil?

>>51480997
they are only as evil as you want them to be

>>51484014
What the word actually means doesn't fucking matter. It's context. It depends on the setting, you twat.

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>>51484763
>the lorkhan the malicious trickster meme
I want elves to leave.

>>51481136
>Implying you can't do both at the same time.

laughing_morrighan_and_ishtar.scroll

>>51488090
Person who reads the future using death.
They actually talk to the dead (in spirit form) in hopes of finding out things about the future.

I would love to see more settings that actually have people like this, classical mythology magicians, who are mostly diviners.

>>51481863
Maybe but there is no reasons why you couldn't have a setting where people can make this kind of pacts with angels or other good/neutral entities.

>>51488418
the Wardstone Chronicles has a necromancer as the villain of one book who's like that, he uses his ability to talk to the dead to gain leverage on people to manipulate them.

>>51481916
you might as well replace
>fey
with
>humans/elves/dwarves/orcs/anyone ever
because there's going to be some sick fuckos who like being huge cunts and fucking up other people. By your logic, warlocks are evil because some sentient being was a huge cunt to someone else so therefore all sentient beings are evil.

>>51488520
Oh for fucks sake. Now I want there to be a setting like that. Where any sufficiently godly entity can make a pact with a mortal.

>Kevin the "mage" makes a deal with Grothnabog the Unpossible because he can't actually do magic for shit.
>First has to track down Grothnabog
>The trick is to find the prime number avoiding pattern in pub closing times
>Grothnabog has a thing about prime numbers
>Migrates between pubs of the most ancient still inhabited city so as to avoid them
>Kevin eventually tracks Grothnabog down
>Performs the ritual of buying Grothnabog a pint made up of shots from the top shelf
>The two get drunk together
>Both pass out
>Kevin wakes up with basic Jedi abilities
>Performs many deed, makes name for himself and his patron
>Returns to patron because "can you give me the ability to shoot lightning from my hands? Shit would be so wizard!"
>"Ok, just hold still I'm drunk and I need to concentrate"
>Grabs Kevin's head and starts muttering in impossible non-words that makes the lights dim, eldritch screaming comes from the wall, the ceiling is impossibly high, the walls fade away and all about there is the wasteland beyond reality and the Things that dwell there watching. Always watching.
>Barman throws mug at Grothnabog's head and tells him to cut that shit out
>"Sorry bro, lost concentration because SOME SHITSTAIN bopped me one on the noggin. Good news, you got baddass lightning, but you also got eyeballs that look like you borrowed them from an octopus".
>"So whats the bad news?"
>"The eyeballs?"
>"Bitch if I knew badass wizard eyes were an option I would have fucking paid for it in gold!"
>Fucking humans, man. I swear they weren't this weird back in the Neolithic era.

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>>51487309
>Wizards
>Using magic wisely.

I provide you, exhibit A.

The true answer is pop culture, as always, because sometimes the sorcerer is not edgelord enough. That's why they are described like that in the rulebooks, so the target audience can be baited into purchasing the product.

The practical answer is that it depends on the setting. It is entirely possible to create a world where everyone is a sorcerer mechanically but they are called priests because that is their function in society (and their job description), for example.

The smartass answer is that strictly speaking, warlocks are clerics but without having to adhere to anyone's teachings, only the job matters. In short, warlocks are skipping out on customer service, having to sell their religion, and angry calls from middle management for the smallest mistakes. As long as their boss' demands are met they can do whatever the fuck they want. Of course the clerics will be assmad and shittalk them to oblivion.

>>51480997
They tend to turn into Magi

>>51480997
Because they're so obsessively power-hungry and reckless that they make shitty deals with dangerous and mostly evil beings to borrow their power.

>>51482730
If a warlock on a higher tier dies, would every warlock under his lineage lose their abilities? If somehow the super powerful chief warlock were to be killed, would all the rest become mundane? I've never thought of playing a game where the patron's death was a possibility.

>>51492279
I suppose that depends on the time print of the pact. If a warlock with subcontractors die, then the contract would either be voided and moot, or it woupd be inherited by a subcontractor as per some sort of order of succession.

>>51492576
Both have some pretty intriguing ideas. You either give the lower warlocks a vested interest in protecting their superiors from harm, or the temptation to conspire together against the more powerful heads.

>>51482730
Isn't that every fairytale where someone in a compact with the Devil routinely kills an apprentice to buy themselves more time?
Because there's *a lot* of fairytales to that pattern.

>>51480997
Circumstance of poverty and opportunity curtailed by monarchs, oppressive churches and myopic scholars has forced them to reach out to abyssal forces in their pursuit of ambition and happiness.

Noone understands them. Noone cares.

5e lore here. Warlocks are dudes that make a pact with a being for magical knowledge.
This is the easy street to power; when the kid is failing the wizard's college and his silver tongue is no longer enough to keep up a facade, a voice from the corner offers him an out for a favor down the line...
These pacts are not always over souls. Fiends can get a warlock's soul just by giving them power/motivation to do evil things, which is often easy, because they get to cherrypick who of those willing to make dark pacts for power is corruptable. Fey may or may not give a shit about that, and likely require other favors or mortal influence or just a good show. Old ones are downright inscrutable, and may not even know that their power is being tapped- less of a pact than the warlock stumbling across how to draw upon something much bigger and maddening than they.
So it's real easy for them to fall to evil; the temptations of power can do that. Fiends want them to be corrupted and spread evil, some fey are indifferent while others are glad for the show and the evil ones are happy to cause suffering, and the influence of the olds ones can cause madness and temptation to do downright nasty things with those mind-affecting powers. Not all warlocks are evil, though.
Oh, and their teacher can't rescind their powers. It isn't like a cleric or paladin where they tap into a god's power supply, they get taught their tricks. Even if they draw upon their master's power, it's because the master taught them how to do that such as a fiend sharing a bit of their true name to spice up their spell incantations, or cracking into a good vein of old one...stuff.

>>51480997
Depends on the pact they made.

Yeah, selling your soul to Demons or Devils is a pretty fuckibg stupid thing to do in a universe where afterlifes of infinite happiness and love exist, but that's just one flavor. Even then, some causes may compel a person to damn themselves for millenia for their only chance to right a major wrong.

If you're a level 1 commoner and a local warlord strolls through your town, burns everything to the ground and murders everyone you've ever known or loved, you don't have many options. If you're not lucky enough to be born with innate sorcery, you were never particularly great with weapons (especially to the near supernatural degree fighters, warblades, etc. are) and you aren't a genius Wizard with 20 native int, you don't have many routes to power that don't involve sacrifice.

Selling your soul for the chance to be as powerful as those mythical adventurers you've always hears about, who throw around as much money as a small kingdom on pure whim, who arm wrestle dragons for fun when they're drunk, well it may end up being worth it.

Not to mention the wide variety of ways one can completely cheat both death and the afterlife entirely. The prime material place is a cozy place, people have been figuring out ways to overstay their welcome for a long time.

Star pact and fey-pact warlocks are even less inherently evil . Sure, owing a few thousand years of service to a fickle fey court isn't exactly glamorous, but to their timescale that's barely a summer internship. Pledging allegiance to the dnd equivalent of Cthulhu or the Ogdru Jahad is a little less defensible, but if their arrival won't happen for the next ten billion years anyways does it really matter if you aid a cosmic devourer gain a foothold on the Prime?

Unlike players, the characters themselves don't get to pick what they're born as.

>>51492875
>>51492279
That second option is just the Sith.

>>51488167
>Choose Fey Pact
>Your Patron's a member of the UnSeele Court
>DM makes mystery rolls regarding you when you're around nature
>DM seems to make doubled mystery rolls regarding you around industry
>DM glances at you, mutters "I'm sorry" and takes you character sheet
>Character disappears from the party for the rest of the session
>Next session, you're back and there's a lot of dead lumberjacks and a noble and his family have been turned into dogwood trees
>DM says you should have known enough Fey when you signed that contract

Technically, they aren't evil, but Fey don't fuck around. Incidentally, I've gotten my party into some real fucking trouble lately.

>>51485775
"Hungry Winter"
Winter = White

So wendigos are just amerifats then

>>51494514
>unreasonable monsters that kill anything foreign
Sounds about right.

>>51488274
Your query is based on the presupposition that evil is not an observable and measurable quality. Evil is more like radioactivity in DnD than a moral concept and Detect Evil is pretty much just like flipping on a Geiger counter. Asking who decided what is evil in DnD is like asking who decided what registers on a Geiger counter.

>>51494363
A Sith apprentice kills his master after surpassing him. I think the warlock scenario is more like diablerie in VtM, where the act itself is the power source.

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>>51494876

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>>51480997
Reminder that they just wanted to help their country.

>>51481952
>Nothing stops a Warlock from entering a pact with a Celestial, for example.
Semantics. We call those Clerics.

>>51499410
I'm pretty sure you can be a cleric without being a warlock.

>>51499495
Those clerics who actually gain boons of their gods are effectively warlocks in a sense

>>51499680
I think the pact between warlock and patron is more important to the definition than the boons received by the warlock are.

>>51497556
>Asking who decided what is evil in DnD is like asking who decided what registers on a Geiger counter.
Well, the guys who designed the Geiger counter were physicists, so... some kind of ethical philosophers or theologians, I guess?

>>51499680
I think warlocks make their bargain on the front end and are subsequently bound by its terms and conditions. Clerics are rewarded for furthering their deity's cause, but both parties can break it off.

>>51499848
I think his point was that a Geiger counter only detects radiation, it doesn't determine what radiation is.

>>51487220
Purple isn't evil though, purple is the color of nobility. It's why royalty like the Roman Emperors started to dress themselves in it. Because they wanted to validate their rule by having the common folk associate them with spiritual purity.

>>51488665
This is pure gold, thanks anon.

>>51499945
>and are subsequently bound by its terms and conditions.
In a classic Faustian pact, the contract itself is just a prop.
Part of an elaborate web of lies to get you to damn yourself.

You can rescind it and repent at any time, for any reason, right up until they actually get you.
So a lot of your Patron's work goes into tricking/coercing you into not doing that.

>>51500129
But is it enough gold to pay for badass wizard eyes?

>>51492279
No, when the highest ranking/most powerful warlock dies, his power becomes evenly distributed among the rest of the warlocks in the pyramid scheme. This is where they gain the power to add weak newbie warlocks at the bottom.

Basically, think of the wizards in Discworld. This is where they gained the name "Warlock" because they are constantly breaking their oaths of loyalty by assassinating the higher ups in order to advance/gain new followers.

>>51500179
Yes.

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>>51500054
Trends change. Purple is usually tied to poison, ghosts and other insidious evils in modern pop culture. Hyees...

>>51500287
But my christian bible is purple...

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>>51500303

>>51500218
That doesn't really give much incentive to expand the number of subcontractors. If anything it would have the exact opposite effect.

>>51500434
No, just keep it a secret. Just explain away the general power surge (and depending on just how many are involved in the pyramid scheme then most probably won't even notice the effects, not unless a shit ton die all at once and flood the survivors) as a reward for previous continual good behavior/loyalty/study etc. etc. etc. Do it in such a way that nobody beneath you makes the connection with their surge in power and the death of your rival.

>>51500287
I'd sooner associate green with poison, white with ghosts, and black and red with evil than purple.

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Because it's easy.

A few words to summon the right being, maybe with the right timing or a few odd but easily acquired items. Then you pledge yourself.
Maybe it's service, maybe it's your soul, maybe it's just a promise to never let the world forget the old being who fears becoming nothing but history.

Then BAM, you got powers. Powers that never run out, powers that just get slowly stronger the more you use them. Powers that you might even be able to pass down to your kids to give them a leg up. It's the simplest and quickest path to power, and that makes it the one that is feared.
Feared both because it can't be suppressed like arcane knowledge or held behind dogma and obedience like the divine. Feared because classically, those who go for the easy road are lazy and selfish.

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>>51500781
There's no strict guidelines on it. One colour can mean different things, and one thing can be associated with different colours. Green is usually connected to magic and wisdom in China, for example.

Also, purple often gets used as a stand-in for black in art where actually using pure black would make it too hard to see what's going on.

>>51500755
What I'm getting at is that you didn't explain why a warlock would want to add new signatories beneath him. You said that when a higher ranking warlock dies, his power is diluted between the signatories beneath him. But that would make the whole idea of adding signatories volatile and give the warlock a very good reason for not wanting to expand the pact. And if you keep it a secret from the warlock, then there's a good chance that they won't expand the pact and so nothing will come of the idea anyway.

I like Warlocks

>>51500786
I want to write a novel about a race of people who live in a shithole land that is barren and lifeless and they essentially all become warlocks. They aren't evil, the entity they pledge themselves to aren't evil. They are just trying to survive. Then it works. Slowly but surely their shit hole land is transformed into a paradise, their population starts increasing. They start becoming more educated and technologically advanced.

But they never forget. They always remember. And the generations and generations of pacts slowly but surely elevate the entity into practically a god for all intents and purposes. And He never forgets. He always remembers.

And the rest of the world that demonized them and banished them to the shit hole are left eating their own words as they gaze upon the paradise from the outside. Some greedy fucks even try to invade, purge the "unlcean ones" and claim the paradise for themselves. Only to be slaughtered as the people, animals, plants, and the very land itself rise up against them.

I want to write it so bad. But I know it will all devolve into Mary Sue bullshit.

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Can a Warlock become a Lich? They can have the Craft Wondrous Item feat and a caster level of 11+, but their soul belongs to someone else.

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>>51483066
>contractual crusades
>pyramid scheme warlock pacts
>hierarchy of signatories
>competing pacts and subcontractor branches
>unionization of pact signatories
>ideological schisms of how pacts should be organized
>everyone has warlock power
>everyone has sold their soul
Fuck it. I'm off to work on Warlock World.

>>51480997
>Warlock
>Word origin: bBefore 900; Middle English warloghe, -lach, Old English wǣrloga oathbreaker, devil, equivalent to wǣr covenant + -loga betrayer (derivative of lēogan to lie)

Guilty by association of name. If I played a class called Dickbiter, what's the one thing you'd expect me to do?

>>51500978
>Mary Sue bullshit
Then just remember that THEY remember.
A history like that, told to every child as they grow up, made into ritual by the pacts and made immortal in art and song throughout their culture. It would create the most bitter, xenophobic, prideful and hateful people.

There would be political factions that want to turn the rest of the world into a shit hole for abandoning their ancestors. Die-hards who demand that every child gets left in the wasteland to know what their parents and grandparents went through. Posers who latch onto the 'we are proud survivors' tribalism while being more pampered and posh than any noble throughout the other kingdoms.
Plus, there are always the greedy. Those who see the pact as something that they're entitled to. Who want special treatment from the entity, and who would try anything to get it.

>>51500908
Ok,
>Warlock A is head of the pact.
>Warlock B wants to rise up to become Warlock A. He convinces Warlock C that Warlock A did something bad and needs to die.
>Warlock C and D successfully kill Warlock A.
>All of the power Warlock A possessed spreads out through the pact holders.
>Warlock B had prepared in advance, and thus with the proper rituals at the time of Warlock A dying absorbs the lions share of power.
>Warlock C and D noticed an increase in power shortly after Warlock A dies.
>Ask questions.
>Warlock B explains that it was a reward he gave them for "doing the right thing"
>Shortly after this conversation, Warlock B uses some of his new power to initiate several of their recruits into the pact, creating Warlock E, F, and G. stating it is their reward for their assistance to Warlock C and D during the assassination.
>Warlock C and D thus accept this explanation for their increase in power.
>Warlock B is now head of the pact, and carefully eliminates any lesser Warlocks in the pact who become too ambitious for his tastes, keeping much of their power, and distributing some of it among his most loyal pact followers and recruits.

See, it all makes perfect sense.

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>>51501049
Thank you anon, for finally giving me an excuse to post this.

The fact Binders exist unfortunately takes away a lot of the Warlock's appeal.

Like, why the fuck would you sell your soul when you can just use Amon as a vestige if you want fire breathing, dark vision and kickass ram horns that are completely temporary and you can expel the vestige whenever you want to resummon the next day when you feel like it

The only hurdle is that Binders may have a higher barrier to entry than warlocks, but depending on how aware fiends/fey/starspawn are in your setting, it may be more feasible to come across a book mentioning ritual summons than to get lucky enough to meet a demon in person

>>51501233
I like them both to be honest.
Binders I see as more a daily deal partnership. You give the spirit a chance to experience the real world again, it gives you the small fraction of its power that it can.
Warlocks are a long term thing. The being has to have a reason to invest a sorta seed of power into the Warlock that will grow over time and usually be out of its direct control.

Call it the difference between renting and owning?

>>51501133
Why would Warlock B be privy to this information while Warlocks C and D were not? Did Warlock A know as well? In case A knew, what would be his incentive to expand his contract to include more people? But in case A didn't know, how come B knew more about A's pact than A did?

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>>51501095
I like you anon. I like you a lot.

Imma do it. Wish me luck!

>>51500908
>What I'm getting at is that you didn't explain why a warlock would want to add new signatories beneath him.
You need people below you to take care of all the demerits to your pact for you.
• one of your apprentices has coven feet, instead if you
• one of your apprentices has glowing eyes are sharp claws, instead of you
• one of your apprentices can only speak in limericks, instead of you

All your food tastes like soot, you're still looking for a guy to take care of that.

Also your footprints are backwards, but you don't want to risk an extra apprentice for that.
Instead, your shoes have impressions on the bottom to your footprints look backwards... so they come out the right way.

Oh, also
• one of your apprentices loses his soul next solstice, instead of you

At least you don't have to keep ciming up with limericks everytime you want to talk. God, that was awful.

>>51501382
Yes! Yeeesssss let the writefag in you be born!

No seriously, good luck and if you ever publish or put it up somewhere drop back in and make noise about it, I would hate to miss it.

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>>51480997
Now you're just being bigoted.

>>51501439
Oh, I will. My dream isn't so much to write an awesome novel people will want to read. But to write an awesome novel with a world people will want to roleplay in.

As far as I'm concerned, that's the best compliment any author could ever receive.

>>51501417
See, this I like. It's like if a crippled person loaned healthy limbs from people who'd come to visit in the hospital. Macabre as balls. It sets a good tone.

>>51500996
Plenty of liches owe their soul to demon lords.
Generally, weaker spellcasters call on aid from demons when attaining lichdom.
The consequence usually works out to "the demon lord can unmake your phylactery with a thought," but "the demon lord has physical possession of your phylactery" is more interesting.
But, very broadly speaking, it means you've become useful/valuable enough to be a vassal or agent rather than the commodity you used to be.

>>51501488
>It's like if a crippled person loaned healthy limbs from people who'd come to visit in the hospital.
"Hey, kid! Want some candy? I've got some here, you can have it. Oh, you've got good legs, to come running here so fast. I can't walk much nowadays. Such a shame, or so it's been said. Would you mind it if I borrowed yours for a bit? You can stay here with the candy in the meantime. I just want to take a few steps outside and breathe in the fresh air."

I ran a homebrew setting once where Warlocks were creations of the state, kinda like alchemists in FMA.

They were empowered by state secrets core of crystallized godly ichor in their sternum that would slowly grow over time, eventually letting the state harvest it and break it up to create more warlocks and considered a resource of the crown. Most came from conscripts that got hit with heavy indoctrination and memory loss, and they were all shackled with a few dozen homunculi made from their blood that could be used to both communicate over long distances, and shoved in a blender as a kill-switch if the warlock ever turned on the state.

Only reason they were seen as evil there was because the state was very much a fascists dictatorship and most warlocks were borderline sociopath G-Men from their 'training'.

>>51501815
Reminds me of Unsounded. Switch out warlocks for necromancers and undead, and it's not far off.

This is a good thing, in case you didn't know.

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Are there any warlocks that get along with their eldritch patrons without being completely out of their skull insane?

>>51502123
I don't see why not.

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>>51502123
Some know exactly what they're getting into and can manage it.
Finally, the face of my tormentor. Come, then.

>>51502123
Your limits are the averaged imaginations of yourself and your GM. A fey could be rewarding good deeds with the power to do more so long as certain rules are kept, a fiend might be the begrudging jailer seeking to loan power in exchange for having mortals ferry wicked souls to him in place of doing the job himself, a great old one might have neither intent nor even knowledge of those who contract them or the world they act upon.

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>I was the last of the expedition left alive. The temple had claimed the sponsors and adventurers alike. I was an apprentice scholar, acting as a mere porter. And I had barricaded myself from the monsters and traps; a tomb of my own device.
>The voice came to me, and I knew it was an evil thing. It tried to tempt me, to let it free, and it would do the same in turn. I couldn't chalk it up to madness forever; he came to me. He assured me, alone I'd die. I was fearful. And again, he offered. He would set me free, and grant me great power and knowledge that would only grow with use, if I gave him one thing.
>"My soul?" I asked.
>"No...merely your daughter's."
>I was a simple man, with no wife or lover or children of my own.
>I was afraid.
>I said yes.

>As I took our only cart and mule along the road, I came upon a wrecked carriage. The driver, and man and woman within, were dead. A babe, wrapped and held right, still clung to life.
>I had no choice. I took her.
>There was no town for miles. No willing church or orphanage for leagues.
>I had no choice. I took her.
>She grew, and I loved her very much. But I never told her.
>She is old enough to live alone now. I can feel my bones grow weak and my skin wrinkle, but the power is still under my breath.
>I am determined, now. While I still have time, I must set out to undo this deal.

>>51484014
>Act autistic
>Call other people a retard
Yep I'm sure warlocks are often portrayed as evil because writers look up the etymology of the word and see that it means oath breaker. Yep, only logical explanation.

>>51492279, >>51482730, >>51480997
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzuoJVr3IAo

>>51488155
As Good and Evil are tangible things and forces of the universe in D&D having an alien morality system just makes you evil for unexplained reasons.

Something being hard or even impossible to understand with logic and reason doesn't mean it's not still Good or Evil on the very real spectrum of black and white D&D cosmic fuckery.

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>>51482730
>>51483066
>>51501041
>>51500978
>>51501095
I feel like these ideas gel really well together and am absolutely stealing them. A hierarchical society of warlocks lead by various pyramid-scheme cabals whose social and political standing are determined by their number of signatories. It becomes almost corporate, everyone always looking to make new deals for shares in business interests and advancement up the cabals.

>>51503612
>in D&D having an alien morality system just makes you evil for unexplained reasons.
Seems like it would put you at odds with good AND evil though?

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>>51488665
Well I've found my new character.

Kevin the "mage" and his patron Grothnabog the Unpossible.

>Good and Evil are cosmic constants in the D&D universe
>In the early days of magic the Detect Evil spell is discovered
>Some guy who causes suffering despite his good intent shows up/doesn't show up
>Thaumaphilosophical deontology vs. consequentialism shitstorm begins, followed by hundred others
>Scholars begin to disagree with the universe's definition of Good and Evil
>Wizards create variations of Detect Evil according to their own definition of morality
>The universe disagrees, but they're wizards, fuck the laws of cosmos
>Setting ends up with different mage schools using Mulee's Utilitarian Detect Evil or Elizena's Virtue Ethics Detect Evil

Is this a good idea?

>>51501815
>a few dozen homunculi made from their blood that could be used to both communicate over long distances
I read that as "in their blood" at first and was wondering whether you were Hideo Kojima.

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>>51501041
>a world where everyone is a warlock
>warlocks unionizing to increase bargaining power versus their patrons
>a sizable chunk of society is dedicated to the reading, interpreting, exploiting, drafting and redrafting, negotiating and renegotiation of pact contracts
>lawyers and jurisconsultants become as nouveau riche
>rampant growth in law firms and judicial departments
>patrons cracking down on signatory unions
>patrons abolishing the adoption of any formalized legal code
>motherfucking Anarcho-Capitalist Warlock civilization

>>51505540
>Hideo Kojima
Nope, though now that you've said it that is a wonderful idea for a kill-switch.

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>>51484014

>>51499410

correct me if Im wrong, but arent Clerics bound to deities, rather than celestials and other holy creatures of less importance?

Otherwise an evil cleric would literally be a warlock, besides what >>51499945 said

>>51507613
Depending on the edition, low and mid level spells come from the diety's servants.

>>51481863

Warlocks making pacts with powerful good extra-planar beings are just called clerics.

>>51500781
I mean it does not change the fact that in art school when talking about color palette for characters that a lime green and nice purple usually represent something sinister.

There's Doom, Yzma, Skeletor, The Joker, Ursla, Dr. Facillier, Galactacus, Bizarro Super man, The evil Queens from Snow White and Sleeping Beauty, Governor Ratcliffe, Frieza, Randall from Monster Inc., Parasite, the Riddler, and Shredder.

Part of it is that these are villains that appear mostly in comic or cartoon media where black is hard to work with. And of course there are villains that appear in black and red as well but there is a large enough group of villains with purple as the primary color of their palette that the idea that purple represents evil can't be ignored.

>>51507613
>>51508116
Clerics still aren't bound in the same sense that warlocks are. A formal pact isn't a requirement, because both parties are helping each other of their own volition.

>>51508305
>>51508305
You can have Clerics that just pay lip service. Kings used to change their country's religion for political reasons, etc.

>both parties are helping each other of their own volition
Warlocks may or may not have been coerced, but both parties help each other of their own volition.

Also of note: a Cleric's soul goes to their Patron after death.

>>51508392
>Kings used to change their country's religion for political reasons, etc.
Kings aren't clerics, nor are did they ever have to contend with deities that actually exist and are active. The gods of most settings are going to know if one of their clerics is just paying lip service. At best they're just not going to grant that cleric any power (paladin isn't the only class that can Fall), at worst they're going to slap their shit.

>>51508305
>A formal pact isn't a requirement,
Baptism, etc.

>>51505635
This is why 5e makes paladins detect undead and outsiders, instead of alignment.

>>51509075
Whoops, meant for >>51508596.

>>51508596
>At best they're just not going to grant that cleric any power (paladin isn't the only class that can Fall), at worst they're going to slap their shit.
Depends on the setting. Plenty of Neutral or Evil gods (and even a few Good gods) are fine with lip service, as long as their agendas get pushed.

>>51508392
A cleric in most cases has been a devoted follower of his deity for some time before receiving miraculous abilities. As a true believer he would continue to worship his god whether or not he received those boons. The cleric was probably selected because of his personal merit, but the deity could have chosen anyone or no one at his own discretion. His spells come from answered prayers maintained on a day-to-day basis, but these prayers are essentially petitions which could theoretically be denied (but almost never will be for gameplay purposes).

Thematically that relationship is far removed from a warlock's compact. One party, in these games usually the prospective warlock, seeks out the other to strike a deal of powers in exchange for favors. The two likely do not have prior association and their personal philosophies can be worlds apart, but they come to an agreement. From this point on, the warlock knows his new powers are his to use as he pleases as long as he abides by the contract. If the patron were to refuse the pact all together or refuse to carry out his end of the bargain, the warlock would not continue to act in the other's interest.

Forgive me if I'm getting some details mixed up, but all that to say the differences in motivation, expectation, and self perception between a cleric and warlock are way too much to overlook because they both draw powers from outsiders. I'll concede that it's possible for a packed warlock to revere and align himself with his patron as a cleric does his deity even if the patron were somehow a celestial. A warlock has the freedom to frame his relationship however he wants, but a cleric does not. He could never separate himself from his deity's will like the traditional warlock, because his power is contingent upon it, and I would argue is probably in his nature to do so. Also, his soul going to the deity in the afterlife has been freely given rather than bargained for.
TL;DR Warlocks can act like clerics.Not mutual

>>51508642
Clerics are first selected by their gods. Any ceremony of ordination would come afterwards. Other rituals like baptism may be common to all worshipers anyway, which would precede a divine appointment.

>>51509389
A cleric could have abruptly "found god."
A warlock could have been a longstanding member of a cult.

You're just throwing around window-dressing.
The Cleric and Warlock archetypes have significant overlap, morality aside.

>>51509432
>Other rituals like baptism may be common to all worshipers anyway,
>which would precede a divine appointment.
And all of those worshippers are offering their souls.

>>51509451
The warlock acts according to his pact. A cleric acts according to his faith. A warlock's faith can align with the terms of his pact; that is his own choice. That's what I meant by saying warlocks can act like clerics. I'd even say that such a warlock could maybe be called a cleric. However, because a cleric has less room for deviation, I still think it would be inappropriate to refer to all clerics as warlocks.

>>51509476
Souls which are offered not in exchange for power, but for other religious assurances.

Because when you enter a pact with a powerful good entity you get to be a cleric or paladin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2tWwHOXMh

>>51509714
>, but for other religious assurances
So... souls that are offered in exchange for *something*
You can sell your soul for things other than power

>>51511941
Comparing any religious person to a warlock seems like a huge stretch. I'm sorry my posts are so sloppy to suggest that.

I think it's more accurate to say that they are offered out of faith with the expectation of a future reward rather than directly working out an exchange with their god on a case-by-case basis. For them the "sale" has already been made whether they receive their end or not. A warlock has some negotiation, more immediate returns, and more certainty. I feel like the expectations and the nature of the offering is substantially different. Ultimately, a deity has no obligation to his clerics or his followers, he does as he wills because it is in his nature to do so, and his followers trust that it will be to their benefit.

Becoming a cleric is not something that a religious person can achieve by their own effort; they are selected by the deity. Even the most pious person in the world may never become a cleric. As brought up earlier in the thread, a cleric could even be a new convert, but the pious man will remain pious regardless.

Though someone can't become a warlock by his own power, he can still take the initiative to contact a being with which to form a contract. If he doesn't find the pact agreeable or if he is refused, he is free to make arrangements with another entity.

>>51480997
only if you made them evil,i made mine like he had a pact with a devil the pact is to kill every demon in sight so lawful evil the kind that "helps"

>>51513705
>If he doesn't find the pact agreeable or if he is refused, he is free to make arrangements with another entity.
Something, something, riding a tiger...

I'm kinda curious about how patrons and warlocks interact. Specifically, how a patron might apply pressure to a warlock in order to make them do something.

>>51516084

>you gave permission in your contract
Calling in your tab, remotely geasing or cursing you, visibly branding you, cutting off your power, claiming your collateral...

>things they do without your permission
Sending minions/warlock after your interests, sending them after you, empowering your enemies...

>>51480997
Where the hell does the word warlock even come from?

Can't be about locking a war in its place or some shit like that.

>>51517642
See
>>51481930
>>51484014
>>51501049

>>51517642
Of all the wikimedia resources, here's the least shitty:
>https://en.wiktionary.org/

>>51484014
You're completely ignoring the fact that it mutated to mean "Breaking faith with God" and was associated with various heathenisms and satanic whatsits, that then influenced the various fantasy genres.

>>51480997
>Why are Warlocks evil?
Outside that flamin' ring of fire
There's nothing left for them to lose
They shoot to kill if they desire
They walk away if they so choose
4,000 filthy stinkin' liars
Tell them there's nothin' they can do
They don't forget, they don't grow tired
Someday they'll do the same to you
Alles klar bad is good
You better listen 'til it's understood
There's a touch of evil in their mind
There's a touch of evil in their eyes
Touch of evil - in their mind
Touch of evil - in their eyeeeeeeeeeeeees
Touch of eviiiiiiiiil
A touch of eviiiiiiiil
Touch of evil
A touch of eviiiil
Touch of eviiiiiiil
Touch of evil
A touch of evvvvvvvvvvvvvvviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll-yeah

https://youtu.be/_y5XCQZfXT0

>>51502221
>super old one is super bored
>grants a warlock cool powers in exchange for the warlock reading him stories/plays/tales/educational texts
>doesn't even steal the warlocks soul, more concerned with hoarding knowledge to stave off boredome

>>51519485
All I can see and hear in my head is Mermaid Man.

>EEEEEEEEEEEEEEVILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!
>EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!

>>51520057
>Great old one is doing great old one things
>without even thinking about it grants warlock arcane powers.
>great old one goes about its business and if it realizes a mortal gained power from this it probably just ignores it and moves on.
>the power gained from the great old one probably come with consequences but they were never intended to screw him over, they might break his mind though but doesn't make him evil.

>>51520057
That's actually kind of cute...
>Warlock reads aloud in a strange language a short ways off from camp every night.
>When asked he says it's a ritual to appease his patron.
>Bard uses tongues one night because he's curious what the warlock is off mumbling.
>It's a fairytale.
>Warlock's patron is basically a childish fae that got lonely one day.

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>>51481436

>>51505359
Sounds like some fun mythology for an interesting setting!

>>51516084
Villanatch, I'm really not OK with torching this puppy orphanage.
>Oh, okay. Nah that's cool, I get it. You don't have to.
Really? Gee Mr. Villanatch, I knew my friends were wrong about signing a pact with a Devil.
>I know right? Besides, I can just use your powers to do it myself.
Wait, what?
>Sorry, sport. Can't hear you over burning orphaned puppies.
Please let me stop casting burning hands.
>Nah.

>>51488665
>octopus
>not cuttlefish
>not mantis shrimp
Cheap-ass boozer.