Why are city states so popular in fantasy?

>>51473408
Easier to create and manage than full states but also not as big as an empire for the purposes of story.

They offer a very dense and self-contained setting, allowing the GM to go for quality of content rather than quantity.

>>51473408

You can pack a bunch together and have intricate internecine power politics center on their rivalries.

City states tend to be supported by foreign trade, so you can introduce and bring together any PCs and NPCs you want, regardless of origin story.

Trade also means wealth and access to high-quality exotic/magical goods. Plus lots of specialized skills like healing, sages of various kinds, the arts, and craftsmen. And in games with leveling systems, access to very high level NPCs.

Why bother putting down roots in Podunk, nebraska when you know you're destined to be 18th level someday? You might as well start getting connected in Washington DC where all the money, power, and high-level NPCs are.

>>51473408
City states are quite popular in HISTORY too. I'd say they're about as popular as kingdoms and empires in all respects.

>>51473658
That's a stereotype.
Germany's had a ton of dirty poor city states in history that would make Podunk, Nebraska seem like NYC.

>>51473672
This is not exclusive. Many City states were also kingdoms (Like Sparta).

>>51473408
>Why one of the most common pre-modern way of governing is the most popular in games mostly set in pre-modern settings
I don't know, anon, I don't know...

>>51473750
Germany had city states?

>>51473408
because they were popular in real life, dum dum

>>51473408
because in the 'swords and sorcery' day thats how societies functioned. City-states.

>>51476265
>Nuremberg
>Hamburg
>Danzig
>Bremen

the correct term would be "Reichsstadt"

>>51476265
Germany was almost exclusively city states for the majority of its history. As part of the HRE they had little political cohesion and tons of self autonomy, making it an imaginary country. The only real countries in the HRE/Germany at the time were Austria, Bohemia and Brandenburg(Prussia) The rest of Germany was made up of tiny political bodies ruled by whoever. There were some countries in Germany in the 1400's which were literally just a farm and a castle. Most were city states though

>>51476265
Still has.

File: Heiliges_Römisches_Reich_1400.png (2MB, 2788x2299px) Image search: [Google]

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>>51476342
>>51476321
>>51476265
Pic related

>>51476390
REMOVE THIS

>>51476438
Oh I know dude, the bordergore is next level

>>51473408
>common throughout history
>well known in Fantasy material
>easy to flesh out as a setting
>not too big, not too small
>easily expanded into larger settings when needed
>lots of room for adventure and intrigue

City states are pretty much perfect to set an adventure in.

>>51476390
Now remove the wealthiest, most well-governed parts, and you have Germany today.

>>51476265

Yes, of course. That was the whole point of Bismarck, was that he managed to unite them. The goal of French foreign policy since Richelieu had been to prevent this, until Louis Napoleon fucked things up because he was torn between his student-era idealism and his national interest and his total conviction that he was the smartest guy ever.

>>51473750

Yes, we're talking about why citystates are so popular in RPGs, so the stereotype (which I'll freely admit is unfair) is what drives the DM's decisions about how to draw his maps.

>>51476342
There were other sizable nations in the HRE, Bavaria was important during a variety of times, Sachen was a reasonably large, others rose and fell but it is an oversimplification to say that only Austria Bohemia and Brandenburg/Prussia were real countries.

>>51473408
Because they existed in real life

>>51476758
My apologies. I was thinking about including Saxony but decided not to since they were part of the Bohemian crown for a long time and then were never too big afterwards. I completely forgot about Bavaria. I wasn't trying to analyze the structure of the HRE, just trying to give a brief overview to someone who seemingly knew nothing about it.

>>51476885
Fair enough.

>>51473408
They were common in the late medieval and early renaissance. Some were rather powerful also.

>>51473750
I think he's probably thinking more of Italy's.

>>51473408

Everything important happens in a 5 km radius. Also, looks more "democratic" than feudalism to uncultured eyes.

I'll be the stupid one and ask...

What is the definition of a city-state? When does it get so large that it is no longer a city-state?

>>51478580
When it contains more than one city.

>>51478638
Florence

>>51473408
It's probably the ideal size state for a representational democracy, which is generally how they're presented in fantasy.

The ones that aren't are operated more like feudal baronies with an overlord running the show.

File: so Doge, much Italia, wow.jpg (170KB, 830x975px) Image search: [Google]

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>>51473408
Because you can use them for near any setting, from Medieval, to Renaissance, to Cyberpunk

>>51478580
Essentially a city able to exert it's influence on the surrounding area and mint it's own coinage.

It's able to dominate nearby settlements and smaller towns and make them rely on it for aid and remove those settlements independence.


In Italy the sphere of influence was the condota and was around 10 miles but certain city states like Florence or Venice could extend further. The larger it is the more the line blurred between city state and kingdom/principality

>>51473892
Sparta is special in all regards though.
I mean it had two kings, and a council of elders. They made a triarchy, a triumvirate state, where everyone was legally equal.
Shit's weird yo.

But yeah, a lot of city states were monarchies.
Syracuse, Athens, Rome, all had monarchs during their time as a city state. (The tyrants of Syracuse and Athens, the kings of Rome)

>>51476321
We tend to call them "Free cities" or "Free imperial cities" in English.
Either way, those weren't the only Imperial city states. Free states were special in that they didn't answer to anyone but the emperor.

You also had the north Italian city states, and the various prince bishoperics which did oversee swathes of territory outside of cities, but were de-facto city states.

>>51478580
The definition of a city state is pretty diffuse, but generally it refers to any state which consists of a city and territory which is dependent of the city.
That is to say, the city is central part of the state, and everything springs from that.

So say Venice can claim status as a city state, despite having a colonial empire with vassal kingdoms and duchies, because the city of Venice is the central part of the state and everything else is separate and dependent territory of the city.

Or Novgorod is a city state because every part of government was centred in the city of Novgorod, it was named after Novgorod, its inhabitants identified with the city, and the land was dependent territory of the city, but it was larger than Metropolitan France at the time.

So really, there's no hard and fast thing.

>>51477567
I mean Rome was pretty much the defining power state for centuries, and you can make a pretty good case for that being a city state until the end of the republic.

>>51473408
because, especially in older times, cities were the center of action, it provides a whole lot more potential, and easier access to goods, than the barren countryside, where most of your people are farmers who can only offer meager reward

>>51473408
Small regions held by local lords with vast wildernesses between them filled with ruins, monsters and more. I'd say it started with Tolkien since we only see a handful of proper civilized regions with swaths of monster-infested territory between, but it was really codified in fantasy gaming by Gygax and Arneson with their inclusion of Avalon Hill's Wilderness game map and rules for its inclusion into OD&D and then exacerbated by Judge's Guild's Wilderlands of High Fantasy setting.

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>>51476390
here's a better pic