Warhammer Fantasy General

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It feels like Bretonnia gets questioned a bunch, but bear with me:

In the real world Middle Ages, most people weren't literate. But just about anyone who joined the church could end up learning a few words, or at least how to transcribe texts, right? And you might also get a few artists, and people skilled with architecture, in the same vein. And eventually universities would pop up - I don't know quite when, but sometime around the 12th century with the growth of cities.

Now, Bretonnia doesn't really have a noble class interested in the arts (beyond the bardic tradition), with more a focus on martial prowess. But the peasants, aside from merchants, are usually rural and not up to getting a proper education. So who acts as the artists and writers and architects? There's no single religious organization with a strong enough presence to act as a focal point for accumulated knowledge, and there's not enough urban development and peasant freedom to make universities feasible.

>>51466139
Sons of the city peasants, mostly. Cities are a lot more free and liberal than villages, especially the port cities. Art is actually one of the ways a peasant can rise in noble estimations; I think the Mousillon splat mentions that tapestry weaving is one such art.

>>51466139
>Universities
I think Brettonia more relies on the old "master->apprentice" style training rather than formal learning institutions.

>Writers
I think these would mostly be the more erudite nobles. Think samurai and their obsession with poems. Your classic knight-nobles will all learn the basics of writing and running a fief, because they need to keep an eye on the peasants to make sure they arent ripped off. Some will go further and be more like warrior-poets or bards.

As for who mkaes the books? Well, they seem more of an "Oral traditions" culture than a "writing stuff down" culture. I imagine bards and storytellers are how most information is recorded, with the odd story written down by hand by the occaisional very organised bard.

Beyond that, you would end up with the "merchant class" in the cities, peasants who learn to make things/perform tasks for the nobles rather than work in the fields. Still "peasants", just not digging in fields.

>artists
Scultpures and Jewelery etc would probably mostly be made by families specialised in the crafts.

>Architects
As above, but most likely families of stonemasons who went to the next level, and then passed their skills on to apprentices etc.

You don't need an organised church to get this stuff. But it helps.

hey so posted this in the last thread but its ded

I've been learning to play warhammer with the regiments of renown gameset for 8th edition and I'm having a blast.

There are 3 of us that play, Me with empire along with a chaos player and the welf player(who maxes out dryads and runs a bow of athel loren to boot)

How on earth do I beat dryads as empire for ROR. my last game I tried taking bowman but holy hell they sucked
currently my ror list is as follows

1 leader :Reikscaptain
1 Empire knight with lance
1 Greatsword
3 swordsman
2 bowman

to say the least my match against the dryads was slaughter, the only redeeming aspect was friedrich my reikscaptain having the prestige of being the only one in my army to actually kill dryads, which he managed to wipe 5 of with his army long dead before he fled the field due to warband rout on 1 wound.


anyway suggestions on anti dryad force for ror, am I just going to fill my slots with knights and charge shit?

>>51466139
>or at least how to transcribe texts, right?
What? No.

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Here's some terrain.
this time it's a small group of dwarfs exploring a mushroom forest.

>>51466906

Is this TW?

Is there 8th edition in TW?

>>51467928
That looks cool. How'd you get mushrooms like that, especially with the wavy bottoms of the cap like the one on the far right?

>>51468094
I made them from foam spheres. Cut them in half and then worked the bottoms with different techniques:scoured them with a thin blade, with a pen, and some even with a cheap battery operated soldering pencil.

Most of the stems are air-dry clay, a few are made from wooden dowels.

I've posted more pictures in the terrainbulding subreddit if you want to see more.

>>51466139
The peasantry of Bretonnia is beyond peasants, in general. They're the epitome of peasantry. If there ever was a peasant that excelled at being a peasant, it was most likely an inbred bretonnian peasant.

That said, Shallya is the principle goddess of the peasantry, and most villages have a shrine, many even a small chapel. There's also a wealthier middle-class of "peasant" merchants, primarily in the cities.

Also, I think it's a mistake to say that Bretonnia doesn't have a noble class interested in the arts. Sure, the focus is on bardic tradition and martial prowess, but many Bretonnian nobles are decadent asshats to say the least, and just because the focus lies elsewhere doesn't mean that there's no interest. A a nation, the nobility is by no means the patrons of the arts, but there's no doubt still a fair amount of artistry going on.

Do any anons know whether Malekith and the Dark Elves from Warhammer predate Malekith the Accursed and the Dark Elves from Marvel? Wikipedia tells me the Marvel one's first appearance was in 1984.

>>51468056
this is 8th edition warhammer anon, with the regiments of renown ruleset (which makes it a 100 point battle where every unit is a unit of '1'

its damn fun

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>>51466139

Because Bretonnian nobility is so sexually stratified, with men focusing primarily on war, it may be the case that most noble scholars and artists are in fact daughters low in the line of succession.

Even more valuable daughters may be more likely than their husbands to read well and do sums, since it is principally the job of a lord's wife to manage his household with or without the aid of a castellan.

>>51470509
wow that sounds fantastic. link to the rules?

no wonder dryads kick ass at that level.

I would invest in a demigryph, personally

>>51470509
wish there was a magic phase...

>>51466906

looking at your list, you're not specialising enough.

>>51466139
why would you need architects when you have dwarfs you can hire to build stuff for you?

why would you need writers when all you need are minstrels (who learn songs by heart and don't need to know how to read)?

>>51458000
>This isn't 40k.

I didn't say it was. That said, Chaos permeates existence. Chaos has always been there, the Old Ones didn't bring it with them, they merely kept Chaos at bay (and eventually flooded the world when the gates fell).

There's absolutely no reason to believe that Chaos somehow didn't exist at all prior to the coming of the Old Ones.

>>51470985
>why would you need architects when you have dwarfs you can hire to build stuff for you?

Because not everyone can hire dwarfs, or even afford them if they could?

>>51471004
nobles can.
peasants don't need architects, they live in shacks and shit holes (literally).

>>51470985
>why would you need architects when you have dwarfs you can hire to build stuff for you?
Because they will tear it down if you step on someones beard.

>>51471018
that's why you hire Dwarfs from the Vaults and bring them to your place via long road

if Dwarfs decide to go brazzers on you, they'll take the short road, since they are too stubborn and stupid to go round, and with their short legs they'd arrive it'd take them decades anyway, and so they'll go through Athel Loren, and get slaughtered. you get a snazzy castle, world's better off with less dwarfs... win-win!

>>51471058
let's hope they're the "right" kind of dwarves then, faggot

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>>51470614
sure anon, here they are.

Demigryph is sadly an illegal choice(and I don't have any) I'm thinking of changing my commander out for an empire sharpshooter with a repeater rifle for max dakka.
>>51470642
no characters tho anon, and in the chaos players case, he has a doomknight on a horse and like 3 or 4 warriors as his list. very magic susceptible

>>51470853

any reccomendations anon?>

Hello there!
I spent past four years in a coma. What's up with WHFB? Did they update Bretonnia finally?

>>51471523
Ha ha ha.
No.


Wfb is dead, the world ended.

>>51471015
There is no gurantee whatsoever that nobles can hire dwarfs. Non-humans are extremely uncommon in Bretonnia, and plenty of nobles are dirt-poor, in terms of goods and monetary wealth.

That said, about the peasants, yeah. They're literally not allowed to have stone buildings.

what army is more fun to play at 500pts - Empire or Lizardmen?

>>51471952
well castles only need to be built once. building a castle is always expensive, so might as well use dwarfs. it's not like architects are in everyday demand in Bretonnia. who builds new castles anyway?

>>51472001
All of that is true, but getting dorfs to do it for you might still be out of your price-range, timeframes, or social circles.

There's barely any dwarfs at all in Bretonnia, and it'd be expensive to say the least. Now imagine paying a hold to travel cross-world to build you stuff. The costs would be royal. It's what a king might do once in an age.

http://www.peta.org.uk/media/news-releases/peta-asks-games-workshop-ban-fur-warhammer-characters/

Do we dare hope that GW is cucked enough to do it?

>>51471523
I hope for you that you are joking.

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>>51472533
>“These battle-hardened warriors are known for their martial prowess – but wearing the skins of dead animals doesn’t take any skill.”
>Animals killed for their fur are typically kept in tiny, filthy wire cages before being electrocuted, drowned, or even skinned alive.

>sad_white_lion.jpg

I guess the skulls, human skins, impaled corpses and similar are fine though.

>>51472713
well, animals ARE innocent. there are not innocent humans.

however, PETA is making it look ridiculous. it's as if they seriously tried to discredit animal rights movement. they are like animal BLM.

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>>51472533
>>51472713
>the animals warriors wear are not considered worthy adversaries and slaying one isn't considered a trial for the spirit and a right of passage

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>>51472869
>animals ARE innocent.
>lions eating living pregnant antilope mp4
>dogs eating humans flv
>albatrosses torturing penguins mov

>>51473031
not having free will means innocence

>>51473031

While they DO pretty nasty things animals are innocent by legal terms for the same reason that babies are innocent. It's about reduced mental capability rather than 'Not doing the thing'

>>51473048
Chimps and dolphins have free will and like to mutilate each other and other animals for fun does it make them innocent?

>>51473062
that's just a theory at this point
if it gets proven, then yeah, they'll be evil according to human system of morals

>>51472533
>complaining about plastic/resin animal skins in a make believe game that has literal gods of murder, some of whom demand you decapitate people and make trophies out of their skull

Sweet tapdancing christ, I thought PETA couldn't get any more loony. Shouldn't they have bigger things to worry about? It's like fretting over a hangnail when you're bleeding out.

>>51472869
>animals ARE innocent
>laughingdolphins.png

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>>51469395
Warhammer Malekith originates in Dark Elves 4e, in 1995. Pic related.

According to reddit:
>Malekith is not from Male but Maleficum = Crime, something bad and Kith means friendship, relation also knowledge. Malekith is a man related to crime. A bad friend. And this is what he does, he sacrifices his friend and his whole race.

>>51474492
so etymologically he's basically male Maleficent?

>>51471523
They never updated Bretonnia again, only got halfway through writing its demise then forgot or got bored and ignored it.

GW officially ended Warhammer Fantasy, in its place is Age of Sigmar, which is like...World of Warcraft meets 40k.

>>51472533
Ulricans and Ursunites both hold that you have to hunt any pelts you wear personally, kill them personally, and do so using honorable methods (no poison, for one).

I can't imagine high elves, lazy craven hypocrites that they are, raising lions in cages just to skin. I mean, it's not like they're druchii or something.

>>51474547
you're kidding, right? tell me you're kidding

>>51473048
t. disproven, outdated behavioralist theory of cognition

>>51470985
Bretonnia has Elves, the Empire has Dwarfs.

>>51474572
I'm not kidding. There is some silver lining, though. There are several decent video games, including a Total War game, a L4D-like anti-horde skaven game, a Mordheim game, and even a Man-O'-War game (still in development). We also have word that the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying license has been bought, so we can expect, perhaps, a 4th edition of the RPG in time.

>>51474597
Elves don't build anything for the Bretonnians, since most the elves in Bretonnia are actually in Athel Loren, and don't build anything. There's also the fact that they tend to view humans as stupid but necessary animals rather than peers.

Say what you will about dwarfen irascibility, but you're not meat for the larder to them if you can keep your oaths.

>>51470995
Chaos had nothing to do with existence prior to the Warp Gates.

>>51474519
Basically. He even turned into a dragon.

Me and a couple of friends are thinking about starting playing WHFB 7th edition.

Good/bad idea?

I'm thinking Skaven, but I have no idea how many dudes I'd bring.

I like Stormvermin and slaves

>>51474639
Bret castles are abandoned Elf colonies.

>>51474666
6th edition is better

skaven typically bring a lot of dudes

>>51474666
Really unbalanced.

Try 6e or T9A.

>>51474696
>>51474701
Was 7th edition unbalanced? How?

>>51471523

It's gone man. The world ended.

>>51474712
Ward and Thorpe, as well as damage control in the fallout from Storm Of Chaos, fucked the game. It also never bothered updating everyone.

Internal and external balance was fucked across the board.

>>51470985
Dwarves aren't as friendly with Bretonnia as the Empire - the Dwarves are grateful for the Brets taking out a shitton of Orcs and Goblins when crusading in the area that is now the Border Princes, but the Dwarves are still Empire friends first.

While I see how a noble can show off to his friends if he manages to hire a dwarf to build his castle, if the entire society is relying on dwarven architects, that's a sign of societal weakness. And dwarves won't always want to build crummy human buildings, especially when Brets prefer tall towers and fancy flags instead of good squat fortifications with your ancestor's faces everywhere.

Also, don't you think there's shit that needs to be written down beyond songs? It's all well and good to have a minstrel sing a song about history, but someone should write that shit down. There's also things like Royal decrees that shouldn't be trusted to word of mouth, deeds and laws, books about various topics - agriculture, chemistry, military strategy, dangerous creatures and how to fight them.

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How do we get the lizardmen more involved with world affairs? All they do is sit around in lustria and they only ever fight skaven and chaos

>>51474941
They can't really leave Lustria because of the climate, right? It seems like the only way is to bring more people to them and make them more important for other people. Or they help out more often through Slann-magic from a distance.

>>51474941
Do what T9A did. Put them in hidden places throughout the world, with Lustria as the highest concentration.

>>51475014
They are not natural beings. They can exist anywhere.
Oxyotl even survived the Warp for thousands of years.

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>>51474941
They already are heavily involved, there are lizardmen armies operating all over the world. They just never talk about them for some reason

>>51474687
Yes, but they weren't built for Bretonnians. Squatting in centuries-old ruins and eventually building shit on top does not constitute anything like the relationship the Empire has with dwarfs. (And the Empire has its fair share of elven ruins based cities and castles itself.)

>>51475779
Fair point.

>>51474665
>Chaos had nothing to do with existence prior to the Warp Gates.
Not sure if this is just a slow, elaborate teoll of some kind, or just retarded.

>>51476698
Then cite where it said it was.

How do I kit out skaven slaves?
do I get them a standard bearer?
Is it worth the chance to lose the bearer and give the opponent an extra point?

>>51477395
Slaves have one purpose, dying. Like Snotlings.

Unlike Zombies which die faster to combat res and need a bit of a buffer.

>>51477624
So you run them bog standard with just more bodies?

>>51474941
But there's also Lizardmen in the Southlands - you could easily have those marching up into Nekhara and Araby, or taking a short sail around to the rest of the old world.

>>51477678
>you could easily have those marching up into Nekhara and Araby
there's even a story to that effect in the 5th edition book, where they enlist the help of a human merchant to guide them to some nekharan tombs so they could retrieve a mummified mage priest from some tomb kings

>>51477634
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer/Tactics/8th_Edition/Skaven

>>51477766
Did you even read that part yourself?
It mentions nothing about how to run them. It just mentions they are dirt cheap

>>51476752
The Realms of Chaos has been established numerous times as being eternal and forever, temporally and spatially infinite, and Chaos has always been present in creation.

Nothing has ever suggested that Chaos didn't exist at all prior to the coming of the Old Ones. It may not have been known on this particular planet, but Chaos has always been around.

>>51474687
>Bret castles are abandoned Elf colonies.
To be fair though, the entire Old World is littered with elven ruins, including the Empire.

>>51478045
Chaos is timeless to itself.

In the material plane, it becomes relevant at a fixed point in time. Otherwise the End Times would have happened before the Warp Gates ever collapsed and there would be no setting.

The Khorne at the Gate collapse may have literally just come from the End Times, but Khorne didn't have any effect on the world prior to the Gates.

>>51478045
Nobody suggested Chaos didn't exist before the Warp Gates. Chaos didn't exist on the Warhammer World prior to them however.

>Malekith
>Teclis
>Tyrion
>Yyrkoon
>Kaleb
>Archaon

How can one setting have so many Elric expies? Its like a setting where every third character is Drizzt.

>>51465596
Does wfrp belong in these threads?

>>51478355
That makes no sense whatsoever. Chaos exists everywhere, it's literally a different dimension shaped by life in the materium.

>>51478541
Yes. It's actually more WFRP than anything else, I think.

>>51478541
Of coarse!

>>51478542
That's in 40k. Chaos was unconnected to the world in any way prior to the Warp Gates, even if within the Warp they can access any point in time after that point.

Unless you go for the idiotic world cycle in End Times.

>>51478542
There is no such thing as a "marterium" in fantasy. There is a material plane.
Latin never existed in fantasy. That's why there are no codexes.

>>51478045
The big deal was that the Chaos Gates at the poles of the planet crashed. Basically think how in 40k, if a ship explodes in the wrong way it will rip a hole into the Warp. The Gates created permanent weaknesses at the poles, like world-sized Eyes of Terror.

>>51478754
In 40k Chaos was shaped and shaped by mortals all along, and is timeless so the moment the first spul left an imprint can be accessed by the last soul to die.

In Fantasy Chaos always existed and had no effect on the world prior to the Gate collapse. Tzeentch for example cannot go back and influence the pre-Old One world in any way, shape, or form. The earliest point Chaos can affect or was affected by the world is the activation of the Warp Gates.

>>51478343
>End Times
Does not apply, because it's not the same setting. Nothing makes sense in the End Times in regards to anything previously established.

Also, the fact that the chaos gates, meant to keep chaos at bay, ended up buttfucking the planet when they collapsed doesn't mean that Chaos didn't exist before that. Me having a roof over my head does not mean that rain does not exist until it has collapsed. It was always there, it just wasn't pouring in.

>>51478749
>There is no "marterium" in fantasy.
>There is a material plane.
Are you really this autistic? There are no "planes". There is only the realms of chaos, the immaterium, chaos, the warp, and then there is the materium, the physical, material "plane".

>Latin never existed in fantasy.
Classical. It's called classical, you ill-bred, uneducated swine!

>>51479094
The Chaos Gates were not meant to defend againt Chaos. They drew power FROM Chaos, so the Old Ones could create a race capable of being their soldiers against it. This was full retard, Horus Heresy retardation mind you, because it caused the thing they were badically trying to prevent. But we know literally nothing about the Old Ones, so we have no clue how they found out about Chaos or why they wanted to fight it, or even what happened to them after.

>>51479195
There is no "materium" or "immaterium". Those terms do not exist in reference to Fantasy. Use the right terms.

>>51478581
>That's in 40k
No, that's both. I've seen this "the realms of chaos aren't shaped by emotions and realspace metaphysics in Fantasy, that's 40k!" before in the threads, and I have no idea if that's some End Times/Shillmar meme or something, but it's bullshit. Everything Chaos is shaped by fears and wants and essentially latent psychic energy by any other name, and it's explicit.

>>51479224
There is no "material plane". Use the right terms. Hurf durf.

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>>51478541
Most of the discussion in these threads is between lorefags and RPGfags (not that they're discrete groups), so yes, absolutely.

>>51478343
>Khorne didn't have any effect on the world prior to the Gates.
[citation needed]

>>51479274
I agree with you, but I'll day that while the warp has always been a reflection of reality it was unable to have a concrete presence on the old world before the gate collapse.


Once the gates went down then chaos could enter the physical realm.


Essentially what your looking at his the equivalent of an eldar web way collapse. A controlled tunnel through the warp that's torn open and chaos spills out of the ruins.

>>51478873
Right, and that's totally fine - the Warp is a parallel universe, that normally isn't opened up into the material realm at all. In 40k, I think the only reason things are that way is because it's been weakening since the War in Heaven.

>>51479831
It's because of the Eldar. When they gave birth to Slaanesh a massive hole in reality called the Eye of Terror was created.

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I know 3rd edition of WFRP is pretty well shat upon, but I have to say one area where it has excelled.

It has several source books for fluff, each of the four chaos gods has its own book and there are many adventure books that explore different areas around the world and introduces new monsters with origins for both. I think there are nice details in the Liber Mutatis, personally.

>>51480521
Speaking of the Winds of Magic, anyone else ever wondered what the other Elemental Incarnates other than Fire and Beast would look like? Like what would Elementals of Light, Metal, Life, Shadow, Death, and Heaven look like.

>inb4 Elemental Incarnate of the Heavens is a Sigmarine

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>>51481118
I like to think that Death would be like Legion from Castlevania rather than just a giant skeleton or something.

>>51466744
>I think Brettonia more relies on the old "master->apprentice" style training rather than formal learning institutions.

To be fair, that's also how universities worked.

>>51478749
>Latin never existed in fantasy. That's why there are no codexes.

I mean, they do use some Latin inspired terms once in a while.

>>51481315
I think you could argue that Latin is related to Nekharean, or maybe even the language of Chaos.

>>51482317
Warhammer latin seems to be from Tilea.

>>51482337
They do have an ancient past of some sort. Though it's hard to separate truth from fantasy, since Estalians also claim to be the first to settle the Old World.

>>51478749
>There is no such thing as a "marterium" in fantasy. There is a material plane.
>Latin never existed in fantasy. That's why there are no codexes.

There's no 'Materium', true, they just call it the Aethyr. Which is Latin (Aether).

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Would you play an rpg/realm of chaos combo game where play as your chaos champion while also building a warband to compete with the other players?

>>51483485
Yes. Next question?

The original Realm of Chaos books were a masterpiece and it's fascinating how they blended wargame and rpg material within the same books with no real distinction between the two.

That's how wargames should be played in my opinion. Warhammer with a GM is god-tier.

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>>51483788
I sort of want to adapt the old stuff to a more intentionally built skirmish rule set, with more deliberate rpg rules, where you literally play your champion with occasionally grouping with your rivals or battling them.

God it would be so cool to have a 13 man campaign with 4 3 man teams for each god and a gm

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>>51474611
I can only hope so, as a fellow Breton player....

this and I'm excited about the Total War game, getting Bretonnian's in Feb.

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>>51483485
As long as I can be Undivided, I don't see why I'd dislike it.

>>51483485
I once played that chaos warband game, published in the white dwarf, which was basically Mordheim, only without any other band than chaos.
I was pretty fun.

>>51471266

That looks quite fun. I like stuff like this, if they'd done some good skirmish rules Fantasy would have been stronger for it.

I'm currently playing some 3 player games with the Dragon Rampant rules.

When was it produced? Looks newish.

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Right lads, got my first game ever of Wfrp coming up.

It's a Norscan campaign. I'm Playing a bondsman based on this guy.

Any good tips for me?

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>>51474941
>All they do is sit around in lustria

And the Southlands

And the Dragon Isles

And Albion...

Assuming the Slanns have acces to gateways/portals they could potentially turn up anywhere with an exit-way portal. The climate in most regions would be too cold for them but they've already changed the climate/temperature in regions around the world, like portions of Albion.

>All they do is sit around in lustria and they only ever fight skaven and chaos

They've also launched attacks against the Dark Elves in Naggaroth (in order to retrieve stolen relics) and I imagine they have pretty much non-stop skirmishes with greenskins infesting their jungles and human explorers looking for El Dorito or something.

>>51486909
It feels like an argument everyone uses with every faction.

>The Wood Elves just sit in Athel Loren!
>The Vampire Counts just sit around in Slyvania!
>Bretonnia only sits around in Bretonnia!
>The Chaos Dwarves never leave the Dark Lands!

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>>51487679
Oh, nearly forgot
>The Tomb Kings sit around Nehekhara!

>>51474666

Skavn routinely bring in 100-man strong units

Stormvermin are nice, both as a unit and as models, and you can traditionally beef them a lot

>>51482723
The Aethyr is the Immaterium/Warp/Realms of Chaos, just in a more neutral sense than "Realms of Chaos", not the Materium/Realspace/The Real World, as far as I'm aware.

>>51477395

Skavenslave cannot have a banner. You should always give them a shield and a musician though, this gives them that tiny sliver of extra staying power and more mobility

>>51482317
Yeah, but that'd just argue that Nehekharans spoke "Latin". Classical is somehow related to elven, and most languages are somehow related to the language of the Old Ones, which is supposed to have been the Creator Language, the language(s) of Magick being the closest to an "objective" language. I think a lot of this is covered in Realms of Sorcery, but I could be mistaken.

>>51481118
Aren't Inkarnates just some End Times bs? They make little sense.

>>51474665
>Basically. He even turned into a dragon.
holy crap, he really IS Maleficent! he even has horns on his helm!

>>51487820
he's talking about Incarnate Elementals from Monstrous Arcanum, not people with Winds bound to them from ET.

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>>51481118
you know, as much as I dislike WoW lore, this would make perfect sense as Incarnate of Light

>>51486882
Have him be quiet, self-effacing, merry, with a good sense of humor.

Have him on a hair trigger temper - if you say the wrong thing, he WILL kill you with 0 warning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2S6xgOV0ls

>>51486882
writing on the image reminds me of Cohen the Barbarian. I suggest you read that for ideas.

T9A fluff any good?

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>>51488308
Ah, fair enough, then.

As retarded as that sounds, then, I could actually see something like an angelic sigmarine (just a lot less bulky, and sorty wiry) as an inkarnate of Light. Probably with some naaru (>>51488316) aesthetics thrown in, too.

And I say this as someone that hates both modern-day WoW lore and AoS.

Similarly, I could see an Inkranate of Metal as a mash-up between a golem, a sigmarine, and Balthasar Gelt, in a colour scheme of stark contrasts between muted earthly pastel colours of brown and grey, and polished metals.

Possibly with arms or weapons similar to the T-1000 or a 40k feudal-world warlord infected by the obliterator virus.

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Anyone that has the Monstrous Arcana? The Mega only appears to have Monstrous Arcanum (and a terrible one, at that).

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>>51489025
>Inkarnate of Light

>>51489025
>>51489510
let's design an incarnate of Life that isn't a treeman?

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>>51489538
I was actually already on that. I was thinking something inspired by otherworldly dryads and treants, but with a distinct malicious feel to it, but still life-giving and life-feeding, fundamentally "summer"-y.

So instead of "dark foreboding forest", I think flowers and fruits would be important, and I was also thinking a bit of aztec or chinese dragon, with vibrancy being important. Perhaps not necessarily feathered rainbow-coloured wings, but something *like* that.

Sharp teeth and claws, fruits and flowers, graceful/slender dragon-aspects, vibrant wings or wing-like aspects to it. Otherworldly but still inviting, as if it doesn't want to tear your head off, but probably would.

>>51489844
what about a swarm? swarm of wasps, parts of it randomly transforming into a flock of birds, turning into a tornado of (strangely fresh) leaves and petals

occasionally, something like a vine, a medusa tendril or branch appears in the swarm

>>51489025
>>51489510
>>51489844

In the interest of not running the risk of overly humanizing potential inkarnates, I'd say that the Inkarnates of Light should have tentacle-like appendages for arms, possibly transluscent or made of light. Along with the elongated/wiry body-shape, it could give a really otherworldly appearance.

The Inkarnates of Life should definitely have the bodyshape inspired by aztec/chinese dragons, I think, definitely separating them from something that's based on humans. Multiple eyes, "the eyes of the forest and the fields" so to say, could probably be a cool thing too.

I think that the humanesque heavy golem style of the Inkarnates of Metal is solid (pun fully intended) though, especially with the shapeshifting arms//weapons and faceless head with spikes already there, like gearless emotionless automatons.

So that's Fire, Beast, Metal, Light, and Life.

What's next? Death, Shadows, or Heaven?

>>51489971
I like the swarm of leafs and petals, but the wasps and birds sounds more like something appropriate for the Lore of Beasts. The rustle of leafs, fresh leafs, no less, analogous to the buzzing of insects, sounds pretty cool, though.

One thing doesn't even exclude the other, the >>51489844 ideas could be completely enveloped in leafs, only showing if the leafs are somehow blown away or exposed.

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>>51489989
Shadow or Heavens

>>51489025
>>51489989
Incarnate of Metal being a golem is too boring
i'd rather have it like a liquid metal water elemental - a shapeless mass, sprouting crystallized surfaces, metal spikes/blades, geysers of molten gold at random. despite being shapeless and flowing, damaging it reveals clockwork mechanisms (that quickly dissolve though) and cogs and sprockets often sprout on its surface too

>>51490017
Life is not just plant life. it covers animals and even natural phenomena too. Beasts is more of psychological or evolutionary magic, a hunter's aspect. bees and sparrows would've been firmly Life.

>>51489989
>>51490054
I realize that this is tremendously boring, but I cannot think of anything more fitting than this as an Elemental Inkarnate of Shadow.

Literal shadows that can shift and morph into anything. It's such a staple it's practically a trope, but I think it's also very fitting.

Incarnates are gay.

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>>51490117
Forgot the fucking picture.

>>51490124
we're not talking ET incarnates, piss off

>>51490117
>>51490131
I agree that it's fitting
now make a mini out of it

>mini is a plain base, maybe with a wall, you gotta paint shadow on

>>51490147
I know, did I stutter?

>>51490240
you might've. how can I know how you dictate yourself when typing?

>>51490157
Just a plain base with a shadow in the grass. Wouldn't even be mad. Would be more fitting than anything GW would make just to make money.

>>51490124
>>51490240
I don't see why. I think of them as daemons that just epitomize a single wind of magic, rather than aspects of chaos.

Thinking of it like that, an Elemental Incarnate of Qhaysh taken form would probably be some form of perfect being, whereas Elemental Incarnates of Dhar would be increasingly deranged mutants.

>>51490731
>Elemental Incarnate of Qhaysh taken form would probably be some form of perfect being
a pony?

>>51478560
>>51478561
In that case can anyone familiar with the system suggest a career path for a ratcatcher (2ed) with excellent int and ag and decidely mediocre everything else.

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>>51490131
>>51490157
>>51490117
Elemental Inkarnates of the Heavens? Just.. a Cthulhu full of stars, with a fistfull of Zeus thrown in there, glowing eyes and lightning bolts?

>>51490883
I don't have my core book in front of me, I'll look later for you. Do you want to start in rat catcher?

>>51491026
I've already started as a rat catcher nearing the end of the career with max advancements. Pretty much every skill I have is base 30 apart from int which is 40 and ag which is 37 pre advanced

>>51490054
>incarnate_elemental_of_death.png
Is that official? Because it's not in Monstrous Arcanum.

>>51487764
Huh, you're right. It was just Battlescribe messing with me. Oh well, that solves that question. Shields are a good idea actually. Thanks!

>>51491065
its in exactly same style and is printed on page. apparently it was just left out for some reason.

>>51491065
it is? it just has no model like so many others

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>>51490883
>career path
Pathing out a career in WFRP2 is a really bad idea, and a very inorganic way to play. It's not something I would recommend doing. Instead, go with what comes naturally and what is available to you.

Moving on from Rat-Catcher, you've got plenty of interesting exits, though, so it comes down to what kind of character you are and where you are in your life, and what options are open to you.

You could start training dogs, taking Animal Trainer, perhaps for other rat-catchers and sewer-jacks to use. If you're the shitty kind of garbage clearer, Graver Robber might be a good fit for a shitty-worker-turned-adventurer. and Bonepicker works especially well if you're still the same person in the same job, just need to grab a new career, or if you're Rat-Catcher from a city that was completely fucked by the Storm of Chaos.

A Jailer is solid if you've proven dependable and just want an out of the Rat-Catcher trade. Cat Burglars and Thiefs are also good if you're the thieving out-for-number-one kind of Rat-Catcher that was just doing Rat-Catching as a shitty job always looking for the next opportunity - or as a side-gig from your continuing work as a Rat-Catcher.

Your excellent Int and Ag will serve you well in almost anything, and it's not smart to overly specialize in WFRP2, nevermind that it's quite hard to do so. Almost anyone is going to end up with a rather wide set of skills, other than perhaps characters that have a very clear progression path (Apprentice Wizards & Initiates, mostly, and I'd recommend any GM to curtain such clear linear progression if possible; which isn't hard, considering that some have pretty hefty requirements, especially in terms of roleplaying).

>>51491140
>It is?
Oh, shit, you're right, it's just sorted elsewhere. I'm sorry. The way the Monstrous Arcanum is sorted, I swear on me mum.

So my 40 Artizan Landsknechts arrived today. I'm going for 20 Spear/pike and 20 Halberdiers. I'm pretty excited desu.

>>51490054
>>51491065
>>51491140
>>51491292
Well that's funny, because it makes the idea of having the Inkarnate Elemental of Life be slender-dragon-like, described in >>51489844 + >>51489989, even more fitting, and I had no clue that there actually were a Incarnate Elemental of Death looking like that when I came up with it.

>>51491025
I think I'd try to make it a point that the eyes should be human-like, albeit full of light, and not the bulbous Cthulhu style. I'd also suggest there being three of them, whatwith the Lore of the Heavens being all about the seers and doomings and fortune-telling.

can't we send the screencap of this thread to, I dunno, T9A crew and Shieldwolf miniatures? Or to Forgeworld, if Incarnate Elementals are still a thing in AoS?

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>>51491270
>Almost anyone is going to end up with a rather wide set of skills, other than perhaps characters that have a very clear progression path (Apprentice Wizards & Initiates, mostly, and I'd recommend any GM to curtain such clear linear progression if possible
It would be nice to have some branching paths for Wizards.
Tome of Salvation and the Career Compendium do a good job of providing some choices for priests (although none of them advance your career down the main path specifically - they're diversions).

Master Vigilant from Night's Dark Masters is the only one for Wizards really, although unlike the priest careers, it does replace Master Wizard entirely.
That's what we need more of. And maybe some college-specific careers. Amber Wizards should get Charm Animal, Gold Wizards should get Trade (Apothecary) or Trade (Goldsmith) etc.

>>51491504
Go for it.

Hasslefree Miniatures too, their guy sculpts shit for fun. Like his Soviet Mad Max Trump, Doctor Evil Clinton, and Doomguy Obama minis.

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http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/topic/41684-karak-azgal-17062015-a-lot-of-new-stuff/page-2

Found this. Good conversion ideas here.

>>51489084
>Monstrous Arcana?

Anything for Pepes (lizardmen)?

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>>51491869
I've said it before and I'll say it again; depending on your College, Wizard careers should simply get extra exits.

For example, an Apprentice Wizard of the Celestial College should absolutely have Astrologer as an exit, and a Journeyman Wizard could get Explorer and/or Navigator, maybe even Seer.

And an Apprentice Wizard of the Amber Brotherhood should have Hunter and Animal Trainer, and a Journeyman Wizard of that same college should have Bear Tamer and/or Horse Master, maybe Scout.

An Apprentice Gold Wizard should have exits of both Tradesman and Apothecary, and a Journeyman Gold Wizard should have Artisan & Engineer. I'd want to squeeze in Alchemist, but for some bastard reason, not a real career.

Apprentice Light Wizard should have Temple Guardian as an exit, and Journeyman Light Wizard should get Exorcist, only replace Divine Lore with Arcane Lore (which they already have).

Apprentice Life Wizards could get Hedge Wizard and/or Hedgecraft Apprentice, which might sound odd, but I think it fits their druidism, it's just that it's sanctioned. No ideas for anything else. I'd say Herbalist, but I just realized that is not a real career for some reason.

Shadow Wizards should have exits into Thief, Vagabond, Spy, and Assassin, at one level or another. Probably Thief/Vagabond at Apprentice, Spy/Assassin at Journeyman.

Apprentice Amethyst Wizards can get Embalmer & Grave Warden, Journeymen Amethyst Wizards could get Grave Robber & Vampire Hunter, and Master Amethyst Wizards Killer of the Dead.

Bright Wizards should have access to a host of martial/battlefield careers. Apprentices should have the exits of Soldier, Mercenary & Bounty Hunter, at least, maybe Charcoal Burner, Journeyman could have the exits of Squire, Veteran, Sergeant and/or Duelist. Master Bright Wizards should be able to exit into Champion.

Or, at least, that's, like, just my opinion. And that's all just on the top of my head.

>>51493087
>For example, an Apprentice Wizard of the Celestial College should absolutely have Astrologer as an exit

Any type of wizard apprentice or journeyman can exit into Astrologer, actually. Career Compendium is VERY poorly edited so it's always best to check both classes to see if such an option exists.

I can only assume that the devs didn't want to make the career trees overcomplicated, but I see the thrust of your argument, and it has some merit.

>>51493087
This is especially relevant since "Apprentice-in-Perpetuity" is a thing, with some Apprentices never ever advancing to Journeyman, serving the colleges in some extended capacity, often in secret, while doing jobs in which they can blend in.

From that viewpoint, having only the exits of Journeyman Wizard (which is the "normal" path), Scholar and Scribe is pretty bullshit. There's literally no RAW way out to fulfill that "Apprentice-in-Perpetuity"-thing other than to shell out 200xp to get into a new Basic Career, even if you fully finished the Apprentice career.

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>>51493189
>Career Compendium is VERY poorly edited
Too damn true. It was just on the top of my head, I wasn't really checking the various careers out individually. It's annoying that the Career Compendium appears almost randomly edited. Some careers take exits/entries added by latter supplements into account, while other careers (such as Apprentice Wizard/Journeyman Wizard relating to Astrologer) evidently doesn't.

It becomes even more funny once you realize that it lists Apprentice Wizard, Journeyman Wizard AND Master Wizard as entries. Why is this funny, you ask? Because the only way to become a Journeyman Wizard is through Apprentice Wizard, and the only way to become a Master Wizard is through Journeyman Wizard. I heard someone ask "So what?".

Well, by RAW, you always keep all your exits.

So they could've just written Apprentice Wizard as an entry, because Journeyman Wizard and Master Wizard will *always* have all the exits of Apprentice Wizard already.

I have to ask myself, though, why the fuck would Astrologer have Apothecary & Physician as entries? Or Noble, for that matter. Seems completely arbitrary.

>>51493213
RAW, you can exit into any former career's exits at a 100 XP cost. That's tangential to your point, but worth noting.

Apprentice Wizard can also exit into Astrologer, Apothecary, Cenobite, and Dilettante careers.

>>51493325
>Apprentice Wizard can also exit into Astrologer, Apothecary, Cenobite, and Dilettante careers.

An Apprentice Wizard exiting into Dilettante sounds odd as hell, honestly, because you're sorta past being a Dilettante at that point. Cenobite is equally odd, and I'd think that Flagellant or Penitent would be a better fit for that special rule, but fair enough.

Thanks for pointing out Apothecary, though, since that's a thing I otherwise would've added to Apprentice Gold Wizards. Might just give them Burgher instead, although to be fair, if Apothecary is there, they don't really need anything else (and I've already given them Tradesman).

I'm still a bit peeved that there's no Herbalist or Alchemist careers, and I have no idea what, if any, career(s) would be appropriate to add to a Journeyman Life Wizard.

>>51493732
>An Apprentice Wizard exiting into Dilettante sounds odd as hell, honestly, because you're sorta past being a Dilettante at that point.

Think Victor Tugelbend, the perpetual student

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>>51493787
>I'm still a bit peeved that there's no Herbalist or Alchemist careers, and I have no idea what, if any, career(s) would be appropriate to add to a Journeyman Life Wizard.
I think they're both supposed to come under Apothecary. Even though the Apothecary career doesn't get Trade (Herbalist) for some reason.
I'm not even sure why Herbalist and Apothecary are two different trades.

Personally I would merge the two together and make Apothecary a proper Herbalist and then create a new Academic Knowledge (Alchemy) and create an Alchemist career something like the Astrologer.

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>>51493959
I'm not sure I'd want Apothecary and Herbalist to be the same career, but rather I'd be fine with those two being extremely similar, with Entries and Exits into both.

I just like the idea of a basic Herbalist being a rural collector of herbs and such, whereas a basic Apothecary being more of a town/city medicinary apothecarian, and with the career system of WFRP2, you should be able to benefit greatly and advance fast if you would want to take both to have them compliment eachother.

Trade (Herbalism) likely deals with herbs and identifying them, and knowing what they're for. Trade (Apothecary) likely deals with mixing and distilling herbs as well as other agents and reagents for medicinal purposes. That said, these would obviously overlap quite a bit, and overlapping skills have always been by design in the WFRP/WH40kRP system(s). This was something FFG never seemed to grasp.

But I absolutely agree with Alchemist. It should be a distinct career similar to the Astrologer, and going Herbalist->Apothecary (or Apothecary->Herbalist) -> Alchemist should be a totally legit thing to do.

And Alchemist should in turn have an Exit of Apprentice Wizard (Gold only).

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>>51493087
>>51493189
>>51493213
>>51493311
>>51493325
>>51493787
Based on this conversation (some of which is me) I created the following:

Corrected (RAW) Apprentice Wizard general exits:
Astrologer, Apothecary, Dilettante, Journeyman Wizard, Scholar, Scribe, (Special: Cenobite).

Additional per-College Exits:
Celestial Apprentice: Cartographer, Charlatan, Courtier.
Celestial Journeyman: Explorer, Navigator, Seer (with a minimum of 1 insanity).

Amber Apprentice: Animal Trainer, Hunter, Outlaw, Woodsman.
Amber Journeyman: Bear Tamer, Horse Master, Scout.

Gold Apprentice: Burgher, Tradesman.
Gold Journeyman: Artisan, Engineer.

Light Apprentice: Temple Guardian.
Light Journeyman: Exorcist (replace Divine Lore with Arcane Lore).

Jade Apprentice: Farmer, Hedgecraft Apprentice, Hedge Wizard, Vagabond, Woodsman.
Jade Journeyman: Explorer, Scout.

Shadow Apprentice: Entertainer, Minstrel, Thief, Vagabond.
Shadow Journeyman: Assassin, Spy.

Amethyst Apprentice: Embalmer, Grave Warden.
Amethyst Journeyman: Grave Robber, Vampire Hunter.

Bright Apprentice: Agitator, Bounty Hunter, Charcoal Burner, Mercenary, Soldier.
Bright Journeyman: Duellist, Sergeant, Squire, Veteran.

And saved them here:
http://pastebin.com/PJiba9mk

>>51474941
Call Lord Mazamundi. Tell him you found some Old One stuff.

>>51474941
The reason it seems like that is because they're a neutral faction that didn't participate overly much in the Storm of Chaos in the Empire itself, and WFRP2 never got around to making a Lustria book (for which I'll never forgive them).

>>51475056
>They are not natural beings. They can exist anywhere.
>Oxyotl even survived the Warp for thousands of years.

Exactly how he survived isn't entirely known, though, and is intentionally left vague. As to whether it's warm or cold in the Realms of Chaos, well, that really depends on how you survive in there, "where" and "when".

The fact still remains that although they aren't "natural beings", which, by the way, practically no-one is in Warhammer Fantasy, by that standard, they cannot take cold very well, since they're cold-blooded creatures. There's a reason the Old Ones heated up the planet (by moving it, no less) so that their servants (and themselves?) could go everywhere, and there's a reason they started making cold-resistant species after the gates collapsed in order to be able to fight the entropic encroachment of Chaos at the poles.

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Does anyone in this thread currently play, and have an opening for another player in a WFRP2 game? I'm really looking to learn to play and get into the game. I have pdf's of most of the preliminary books.. Anyone interested in starting a group?

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Where was everyone when Bretonnia was updated the first time since 2004?

>>51494973
Just missed our two-year campaign.

Conclusion: the system is way too simple and limited. Every combat feels the same, and many of the rules are bullshit when you look into them.

>>51494593
Made some changes:
>Added Pilgrim to Light Apprentice.
>Added Interrogator to Light Journeyman.
>Moved Squire from Bright Journeyman to Bright Apprentice.
>Added Militiaman to Bright Apprentice.
>Added Swamp Skimmer to Jade Apprentice.
>Added Agent of the Shrough to Amethyst Journeyman.
>Added Charlatan and Forger to Shadow Journeyman.

Leaving us with:
Celestial Apprentice: Cartographer, Charlatan, Courtier.
Celestial Journeyman: Explorer, Navigator, Seer (with a minimum of 1 insanity).

Amber Apprentice: Animal Trainer, Hunter, Outlaw, Woodsman.
Amber Journeyman: Bear Tamer, Horse Master, Scout.

Gold Apprentice: Burgher, Tradesman.
Gold Journeyman: Artisan, Engineer.

Light Apprentice: Pilgrim, Temple Guardian.
Light Journeyman: Exorcist (replace Divine Lore with Arcane Lore), Interrogator.

Jade Apprentice: Farmer, Hedgecraft Apprentice, Hedge Wizard, Swamp Skimmer, Vagabond, Woodsman.
Jade Journeyman: Explorer, Scout.

Shadow Apprentice: Entertainer, Minstrel, Thief, Vagabond.
Shadow Journeyman: Assassin, Charlatan, Forger, Spy.

Amethyst Apprentice: Embalmer, Grave Warden.
Amethyst Journeyman: Agent of the Shroud, Grave Robber, Vampire Hunter.

Bright Apprentice: Agitator, Bounty Hunter, Charcoal Burner, Mercenary, Militiaman Soldier, Squire.
Bright Journeyman: Duellist, Sergeant, Veteran.

Thoughts?

>>51495247
>Conclusion: the system is way too simple and limited.
>Every combat feels the same

Sounds like you had a really shitty GM. Why the fuck did you stick around for two years of what must've been existential horror?

>>51495665
Actually, I think I'm going to cut Militiaman. The Apprentice Bright Wizard is already bloated, and militiaman too specific and arguable; a bright wizard that would get involved with a militia would become involved as an actual wizard (so, journeyman, or just still apprentice), a mercenary, or some form of soldier. He wouldn't actually be a rank-and-file militiaman or accepted as just "one of the combat-peasants", so I'll just nix that.

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>>51495665
>>51495881
Journeyman Wizards already have Charlatan as an Exit, so nix that from Celestial Apprentice and Shadow Journeyman, too.

Other than that, looks good.

>>51494973
I've got one slot in my Sunday game, potentially. EST.

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>>51495467
man-things can't-won't ever fuck-fuck the elf-thing

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>>51495467
What is with this occasional obsession with skaven I see? 'Would u pat a skaven' and all that.

Skaven aren't cute by any means. Even when they aren't plagueridden, they see no need for cleaning themselves. The ones that live all that long would be backstabby bastards you wouldn't want to touch, let alone pat or kiss. It's not even that they've been raised in a horrible situation - that only reinforces their natural tendencies towards backstabbing, deceit and a lack of empathy for anyone or anything else. They are one of the most horrible races in Warhammer, hands down.

>>51496394
but would you pat a skaven?

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>>51496286

>>51496413
I would rather try to pat a hungry Ogre without any sense of decorum or table manners. I would rather try to pat a Dark Elf Hag Queen when she's trying to get enough sacrifices to fill her Cauldron of Blood and in a foul mood already. I would rather try to pat a Keeper of Secrets with a fetish for comparatively tiny hands and an appetite for comparatively tiny fingers.

>>51495467
Revolting.

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>>51496394
It could still be worse. At least they're not Jews.

>>51496511
Not this shit again.

>>51496494
You could always just do the classic "Pat and Run" on the Skaven. Just sneak up on it, pat it, then run while the Skaven is confused.

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>>51496544
Why would I fucking want to do that Skaven are disgusting and awful haven't you been listening

>>51496609
To me it seems comical for someone to go up to a bewildered Skaven and patting it instead of killing it.

>>51496522
Blame the source of inspiration. It's a bit hard to deny.

>>51496771
Not this shit again.

>>51496064
Alright, so.

Corrected (RAW) Apprentice Wizard general exits:
Astrologer, Apothecary, Dilettante, Journeyman Wizard, Scholar, Scribe, (Special: Cenobite).

Corrected (RAW) Journeyman Wizard general exits:
Charlatan, Master Vigilant, Master Wizard, Scholar.

Suggested Additional per-College Exits:
Celestial Apprentice: Cartographer, Courtier.
Celestial Journeyman: Explorer, Navigator, Seer (with a minimum of 1 insanity).

Amber Apprentice: Animal Trainer, Hunter, Outlaw, Woodsman.
Amber Journeyman: Bear Tamer, Horse Master, Scout.

Gold Apprentice: Burgher, Tradesman.
Gold Journeyman: Artisan, Engineer.

Light Apprentice: Pilgrim, Temple Guardian.
Light Journeyman: Exorcist (replace Divine Lore with Arcane Lore), Interrogator.

Jade Apprentice: Farmer, Hedgecraft Apprentice, Hedge Wizard, Swamp Skimmer, Vagabond, Woodsman.
Jade Journeyman: Explorer, Scout.

Shadow Apprentice: Entertainer, Minstrel, Thief, Vagabond.
Shadow Journeyman: Assassin, Forger, Spy.

Amethyst Apprentice: Embalmer, Grave Warden.
Amethyst Journeyman: Agent of the Shroud, Grave Robber, Vampire Hunter.

Bright Apprentice: Agitator, Bounty Hunter, Charcoal Burner, Mercenary, Soldier, Squire.
Bright Journeyman: Duellist, Sergeant, Veteran.

Anything odd or out of place?

>>51496782
What? Is this controversial here somehow? It's practically a trope. In my FLGS we used to refer to them as "the jews" or "jewish rats". they're my favourite army

>>51496890
I just think it's run into the ground.

>>51496890
>Is this controversial here somehow?
only for one anon.

>>51470509
>50 Skavenslaves
or
>2 Grail Knights

this game got infinitely more fun for my two armies

>>51496890
A few threads back we had a few anons get into shitflinging on 'no they're jews' and 'no they're obviously Nazis.'

>>51497107
welp nvm guess i need a minimum of 3 models for Bretonnia

>>51496413
pat the rat

>>51497124
>skaven
>nazis
wat

>>51494950
The lizardmen have fought in the chaos wastes though, and naggaroth, many times. I always assumed the slaan just cast some sort of cold resistance spell on the armies before they send them to cold areas, to allow them to fight effectively

>>51497135
>>51497107

minimum 4 models and max 12 or 14 anon haha

however if you play a few normal games and get the feel, then ask your opponent for a yolo round I'm sure they wouldn't disagree

you could always have a grail knight and his peasanting companions, worth 50p I imagine

>>51497257
The resemblance may be how obsessed they are with weaponizing everything, mostly, their lessers, looking for supersoldiers, that and gassing the dawi (the true "jews" of WHFB)

>>51497257
In WHFB, jews are dwarves (grudges, master jewelers, greedy, high tech, etc.). Skaven, their nemesis, love supersoldiers, racial purity, combat gas, stormtroopers, etc.

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>>51497257
>Certain skaven sigils, pic related
>Goose-stepping 'Stormvermin'
>Gasmasks and poison gas
>Flamethrowers
>Machineguns

It's not super subtle.

>>51496494
Oh shit, imagine a dark elf on her period.

>>51497401
They also have a council of thirteen just like the Nazis had.

>>51497320
>>51497375
>>51497401
That's all super-stretched, and doesn't really tie in with any nazi caricatures, aside from the "storm" in stormvermin, but they're roman-esque more than anything else.

>>51497446
I think you're confusing the council of zion with nazis. Somehow.

>>51497861
You could argue that they're a lot of things, but I wouldn't label them as just Jewish, just Nazis or just Roman, because obviously none of them quite fit. It'd be better to label them as just a caricature of evil rats, but sentient.

>>51496431
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate.

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>>51496522
I wonder-wonder who is behind this post-post...

>>51496394
>he wudnt pat a skaven


wew

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>>51497861
Look at this shit. Look at it.
If you try to convince me that the Skaven have no Nazi influence after looking at this, I have nothing further to say.

>>51497107
Who wins in a fight

ten billion skavenslaves

or Morrslieb

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>>51497446
That's a parody of Christ and his apostles.

>>51497401
also racial superiority ideology

>>51498183
what the fuck-fuck

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>>51498198
shes a cutie isn't she

>>51498183
>>51498222
Each day we stray further from God's light.

>>51497880
>>51498158
Nope. Heinrich Himler being the huge nerd that he was had his own round table made, like the one in Arthurian myth and Hitler being the ruler supposedly always had the thirthteenth seat even if he was not present in person.

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>>51498416
Did not know that.

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>>51498222
Gotta admit, that's some pretty cute art, and it still captures some of the savagery of the skaven instead of trying to whitewash them as totally cute mice. And it's interesting in that they look like some sort of sea captain?

But it's still faggotry, and more genteel than an actual skaven would be.

>>51498543
It's a disguise! She's an assassin desu.

>>51498599
I thought Skaven assassins were all ninja types. Why would they try to disguise themselves? It's not even like 'trying to pass for a peasant,' it seems they're trying to openly be some sort of Skaven captain.

>>51498647
They are.

It was just a goofy idea I had, her normal outfit is supposed to be pretty much what an assassin would wear. The other outfit is for fucking about around drunk nobles, who actually would be too hammered to see through it.

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>>51498685
...I'll allow it because it would be hilarious to have a drunk noble see through the disguise and everyone go 'dude no such thing as Skaven remember' and they all just awkwardly try to ignore that she's putting warpstone into the wine.

You got lucky this time by tickling my sense of humor, but next time there'll be rat catchers. Or we'll be in Bretonnia or Tilea, where the Skaven are not kept secret.

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>>51498747
excellent.

>>51498747
>>51498685
This is a think that canonically happened in Gotrek & Felix. Emmanuelle von Liebewitz threw a costume party, and a Eshin assassin was sent in to place a warp beacon and then recon. He lazily put the beacon in the toilets, then got caught by partygoers, who mistook him for being in costume.

When Grey Seer Thanquol showed up, he was just chilling in the ballroom, eating snacks. Thanquol himself briefly mistakes him for being a human in an impressive costume.

>>51499091
Yep, that was pretty much where I got the idea to begin with.

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So I was reading about the Skaven on 1d4chan when I came across this particular clan.

I googled them and the 1d4chan page is the only thing that shows up. They seem like a pretty neat thing, is there any more info about them?

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>>51499135
I'm pretty sure they're either made-up, or so old that they aren't well remembered. I can't find any citations for them anywhere, and as far as I've checked armybooks I can't see anything.

>>51499091
God Skavenslayer was such a good book.

Where did William King go wrong??

>>51499421
That's what I was thinking, thanks for checking man
I do kind of wish it were real though, I like the idea of pure evil races have small outliers of slightly reasonable in them

>>51499646
I'm not saying it's impossible that they're real or previously existed, just that I couldn't find anything. Even the 1d4chan article says they were only mentioned twice, and it doesn't even mention when.

But while we're bringing up Skaven, might as well bring up these chucklefucks:

http://warhammerfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Cult_of_the_Yellow_Fang

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>>51495222

My anus is ready.

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>>51498183

Sigmar preserve us...

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>>51465596
Has anyone here ever read or seen a copy of 'World of Warhammer: The Official Encyclopedia'?

I didn't know GW ever produced an official encyclopaedia.

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Will a WHRPG edition ever let me play a Glorious Tomb King/Prince or Nehekhara Undead Mummy?

>>51499836
I know that Kislev has an equivalent to Witch Hunters, but does Bretonnia? Perhaps Tilea or Estalia?

>>51499972

I think Tilea and Estalia do but I don't think an Inquisition is Bretonnia's style. The local Lord probably handles the matter with a mob of peasants.

>>51497401
>>51497257
Skaven are Romans.
>>empire with massive amount of slaves
>>advanced technology
>>Council/Senate
>>Stormvermin/Praetorians, also just as backstabby
>>hairy

>>51499997
>>51499972
Bretonnia has the Grail Knights and the Damsels.

>>51499972
Aren't the Damels pretty much a not so secret police? Don't they pretty much rat on any Nobles that are heretics/chaos worshipping etc, directly to The Fey Enchantress?

I could be wrong since I'm not a Breton-fag

>>51496286
That is actually the exact time and time zone I"m set for... details? address I can contact you mate?

>>51500046
Damsels often have the power to take care of problems themselves, but yes if there is a problem too big for them they can bring it to the Enchantress who can then either intervene herself or send a host of Grail Knights to pink belly a cultist lord until he dies.

It helps that both Damsels and Grail Knights live outside the hierarchy of Bretonnian feudalism and can do just about anything they want.

>>51500021
>Empire with massive amount of slaves
Which is true of most ancient and some medieval states, not just Rome.

>advanced technology
Far more advanced than Rome was at its height, their buildings and art carry nothing similar to that of Rome - they don't even attempt propaganda like the Romans did.

>Council/Senate
Were a formality by the time of the Empire, and the Skaven Council of Thirteen has far more sway over Skaven affairs and constant civil strife.

>Stormvermin/Praetorians
The Stormvermin share a similar role as elite bodyguards, but they did not have as much power to depose and chose Emperors/Warlords as the Praetorians did. In fact, they seem to rely on the status quo for their continued betterment.

>Hairy
The Romans preferred to be clean-shaven; it was the barbaroi who had beards and did not shave.

You might be able to argue that they're similar to Rome at the time of the barracks Emperors to explain the constant strife, but they aren't really Romanesque even on a surface level. They're probably just a vague evil empire.

>>51500172
I might concede the other points, but Stormvermin aren't as concerned with status quo as you might think. The Skaven have a saying, "a warlord is only as big as his Stormvermin". He has to keep them satisfied and intimidated in equal measure so that they don't betray him, because a rat's gotta sleep sometime and if those guys you're paying to stand outside your door while you're catching a nap decides that your underling can pay them more then you're not going to be warlord for very long. Plus their armour has a Roman bend to them.

>>51499836
>RAT'S CUM

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>>51499836
Not even Ulric can save you now

>>51500052
I'm on the suptg IRC server, Commissar_Cornflakes. We run the game on Sundays, 3pm ESTish, weekly. I can offer further details as needed.

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>>51500339
>>51500356

> Does anyone fancy a bum?

>>51500394
>IT'S STRANGLING THE ELF! THAT'S *MY* JOB!

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>>51500356
Gotta admit, your art is pretty good, assuming that's all your work. Total fucking heresy though.

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>>51500527
it is!

>>51500394
She has a pretty nice bum

>>51500376
Just for sanity's sake.. is #suptg empty right now? can you hop in just so I know I'm in the right place?

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>>51500745
Uh, it's not empty, it's the main channel on the IRC server.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/chat.html

Contains the URL and port for the server. You'll be automatically connected to that channel.

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>>51500739
Then I should compliment you on your work, even if I don't fully enjoy the material that's focused on. It's got a pleasing style to it, sketchy and vibrant, and expressive with some good attention to detail.

>>51500827
Thank you kindly.

I just wish I had more to offer in regards to warhammer fantasy. I really love that Tzeentch is getting attention now, but bad things had to happen before my chosen side got some love.

its funny, warhammer fantasy should be one of the most popular wargames of all time.


yet due to the colossal ineptitude and mismanagement on of the part of GW they somehow were forced to wipe the whole setting in order to push more space marines on people instead.

it makes me saddened as a fan of both WHFB and 40k that it came to this.


i mean really, what the fuck were they thinking other than short-sighted money grabbing?

its like they wanted it to fail.

>>51501129
yeah, it's pretty shitty. and really it kind of was, the whole End Times thing they had going was pretty great, but then they just crashed it in a bad way.

At least they're picking up the pieces and, I hear that there will be a third edition of WHFB RPG in the works. So I do have some respect that the setting isn't -entirely- dead.

>>51501129
I know Fantasy only makes up about 17% of their revenue. I personally think that doing Age of Sigmar the way it is encourages new people to play. I wasn't able to even get into Warhammer financially until AoS because I couldn't afford to just buy from one army. I like being able to Pair my Skaven with other chaos figures because I was able to get good deals on them. Warhammer Fantasy needs new blood. I don't think this is necessarily going to save Warhammer, but it is a step in the right direction.

>>51501129
>>inb4 the AoS shill squad shows up
WHFB failed because GW made it fail. They made the game too big and too hard for new players to get into it. It was steered towards massive armies that also had spells that would make such armies nearly useless. I was able to get into Warhammer when I was around 12, saving up my allowance to buy a box and a painting kit. I can't imagine a kid around that age being able to afford much of anything nowadays. The worst part is how GW and their shills try to blame its fans for not buying models and supporting the game, when it's their fault for making shitty models and boxes with sometimes half the amount of guys in them for even greater prices.

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>>51501129
>>51501170
>>51501234
>>51501244

While it was raw a year ago, I'm less bothered that GW has let Fantasy go as a wargame.

- They won't ruin the lore like they're doing with 40K.
- We're still getting good videogames, RPG's etc. out of it.
- In many ways we have the most versatile models, we can play any edition of Warhammer, Kings of War, AoS, Dragon Rampant etc.

The only downside is that we'll get little new artwork and we lost some models.

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>>51501396
They nearly ruined the lore with 8th edition and then finished the job with End Times. I've said it in previous threads, ET wouldn't work without the setting being changed, so they changed the setting to suit the narrative. I suppose it's a good thing that they washed their hands of WHFB, so things can't get any worse. Judging by the 'lore' of AoS, it can get worse. Way worse.

Warhammer and 40k always worked best as stagnant settings
Real plot advancement was a mistake

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>>51501542
There's nothing wrong with advancing the plot, but move too fast and you fuck up that much easier. It isn't a computer game where five factions can change radically between titles or even expansions, it's a model game that needs to move slower. ET failed so hard because it was like 20 plot lines being finished in a two part episode. There's just not enough time between the Lizardmen losing Lustria, Ulthuan sinking beneath the waves, Altdorf and the rest of the Old World dying (mostly off screen) and a cataclysmic last battle that it doesn't feel like there's an earth shattering event every five minutes. Everything was so rushed and condensed that it ultimately felt pointless.

>>51501475

I think ruined is a strong word for 8th. It changed focus but didn't radically change anything so I wouldn't say it was ruined.

I totally disregard End Times, except for Vermintide.

Ahighi Aelves
Adwarfi
Abretonniai

>>51501542

It was always supposed to be a sandbox to make your own story and your own army; but lets be honest here, GW isn't really going to advance the plot, they're just telling a story in the setting which at the end may change something very minor. They won't kill the golden goose.

>>51501593
Hence 'nearly ruined'. It had some cool stuff like nature spirits and ghosts rising up to help Bretonnia, but it also had dhar wielding Wood Elves and a TOTALLY NOT THE LADY OF THE LAKE goddess of 'mists and lakes' introduced with all the subtly of a hammer.

>>51501170
>>51501234
>>51501244
>>51501396

it just struck a chord with me as i was browsing chinamans wares and realised I could make a whole fantasy army for a fraction of the RRP (or what it was before they deleted them off the store...) this hadnt occurred to me for a long time due to the ridiculous prices GW insisted upon for years.


so the point being im currently in the process of making a kings of war army (i like the flexibility of the rules, WHFB games could go on for ages) with GW wood elves, however theyre not regular elves, theyre sexy chocolate desert-dwelling elves with dryed out deadwood dryad/tree spirits.


anyways i TL;DR I was looking for Ushabti to use in my army as treekin equivalent. and i realised chinaman now has a larger range of Fantasy products than GW currently sells. I can get like 4 ushabti 17$ and i dont feel a single ounce of remorse which is completely different to what I would have thought 12-15 years ago.
sorry for the blogpost.

>>51501632

What was the problem with the Wood Elves?

>>51501721
The Asrai, Wood Elves, aren't the midpoint between 'light and dark', Asur and Druchii respectively. They aren't Grey Jedi. They're an isolationist group of people who didn't want to abandon their homes and see both groups as traitors to their elven heritage. Not to mention that most elves are smart enough to know that using dhar is a really bad idea, even with good intentions. It corrupts and taints everything it touches, worse than 'normal' magic. High Magic isn't as egregious since it's not as horribly dangerous as Dark Magic is, but it's still in the same vein of making Wood Elves the middle ground. What other point is there giving them those lores other than to say "Don't like good elves or evil elves? Well here's neutral elves, go wild (hunt)".

>>51501813

Ha, alright I see now.

Still it could have been just some weird End Times bullshit.

Lots of the main characters just did total U-turns, like when Gelt just turns to necromancy. Pretty unbelievable and clearly just forced in for the reset.

>>51501837
It's basically my point that 8th edition was the downfall of lore while ET was the sudden stop, with AoS being the roadkill being scraped off the road and sold to customers as a mystery meat.

I don't know why they even did it at all, beyond selling some new models. Just put out the models and say 'okay it's done, go home we don't want your business anymore'. You wouldn't have had to make Teclis a backstabbing prick, Bel'acuck into a reset button to ensure Chaos wins, Archaon into a super sue and Malekith into the true Phoenix King. All of it stupid bullshit without a purpose other than to piss everyone off before they killed the game. Also conveniently killing off all the Grail Knights before the 'big reveal'. Also forgetting half the human gods and pairing Taal and Shallya.

>>51500775
>>51500745
Dunno what happened with your attempt to get in contact dude, but I'm gonna be off for now. Assuming you contact me, if I don't respond, I'm probably asleep or at work, but I'll get back to you.

>>51501542
Plot advancement is fine. The issue lies in actually changing the setting and retconning. The problem was never that End Times/Age of Smegmar advanced the plot or that it was to fast, but that it changed settings. Nothing in End Times onward makes sense in the context of Fantasy, which is why it's considered a different setting, regardless of canonicity.

Do Elves worship Shallya?

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>>51502281
No, they have their own pantheon. Has there ever been one? Maybe one born in the Empire or Bretonnia, would have to be raised by humans. Not impossible but very improbable.

>>51502281
>>51502299
City elves proably worship also human gods.

>>51502315
It's doubtful but not completely out of the question, as most elves that live in human cities are members of the Trade Houses of Ulthuan or diplomats. I could see one donating to a temple of Shallya or even attending a service, but only as an act of good will. Seeing as how the human gods are but reflections of the elven pantheon, it'd be like buying a Chinese knockoff of a Batman toy called 'Bat-that-is-Man'. They have a peculiar relationship with their gods that humans wouldn't understand, so I don't see what an elf would get out of worshipping Shallya, especially since they're not as vulnerable to disease and have magic that can treat the most dire of wounds. It's the same reason why they don't worship the Chaos Gods, excluding the Cults of Pleasure and Slaanesh as he has the only thing to offer them. Kind of a 'anything you can do I can do better' deal.

>>51500172
You seem to be confusing caricatures with reality. The real nature of the roman empire is irrelevant, the caricature isn't. For example, letins/italics are definitely hairy.

>>51499946
Hopefully not. That sounds incredibly out of it's scope. There are rules for generating vampires (intended as NPCs) though, so you should be able to cobble something together.

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>>51502386
They're also both dirty cowards.

>>51498076
...you realize that the Arc of the Covenant is a jewish relic, right?

>>51502386
But they have the Tileans to push all those stereotypes into, and in many ways they have. There's no need to push them onto the Skaven, who barely have any relation to Tilea beyond where Skavenblight happens to be.

>>51500871
Could you draw someone trying to slice a pink horror in twain, only to have them turn into blue horrors? That never gets represented anymore.

>>51488839
Of what little is availible I'd say yes. It's quite good.

>>51502551
Tileans don't have anything Roman about them, aside from the Alcatani Fellowship having plumes on their helmets. They're Italian city states with a lot more mercenaries and a hatred of the Spanish next door. Skaven, on the other hand, have a lot more Roman stuff going on as previously mentioned, as well as some of their armour having segmentata lorica style to them. Hell, they even have a story about a slave named Skabicus who led a revolt before the Council sent an entire legion of Stormvermin to crush it. They were to offer amnesty to those who pointed out Skabicus, which prompted the entire revolt to single him out. The Stormvermin slaughtered everyone anyway.

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>>51502551
I agree, and I'm not the guy that was originally arguing that they were roman (I was the one that mentioned that the Stormvermin appear a lot more romanesque than anything, though, and I -do- agree that it's more "Praetorians" than "SS").

I just wanted to point out that we're dealing with satire and caricatures, and confusing it with the real-life counterparts on a more serious level isn't just silly, but potentially misleading. It's the same thing about the idea that Skaven are based on Jewish caricatures, whereas Tolkien dwarfs are based on idealized Jewish influences, and in Warhammer Fantasy, tempered by the latter common influences of Gaelic/Scottish/Nordic interpretations.

As a fan of the theory that the Skaven are mutated/degenerate dwarfs, however, I'm already predisposed towards interpreting the Skaven as "everything terrible to be said about jews" and the dwarfs as "everything positive to be said about semites", the Skaven representing the corruption of everything dwarfen - a clannish & respectful close-knit society of dwarfs vs. the backstabbing nature and inability to accept others, blaming their failures on persecution perpetuated by others, etc, among the skaven.

And so on and so forth.

>skaven are entarte kunst

>>51502775
>Hell, they even have a story about a slave named Skabicus who led a revolt before the Council sent an entire legion of Stormvermin to crush it. They were to offer amnesty to those who pointed out Skabicus, which prompted the entire revolt to single him out. The Stormvermin slaughtered everyone anyway.

Source of that story? I haven't been able to find it, and I suspect it's just 1d4chan fanfic. So while potentially interesting, it shouldn't be taken at face value. But I dunno.

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>>51503031
Skaven 7th edition. Pic related. It's in the entry for Skavenslaves.

>>51502581
this actually sounds like a great idea, if a bit complicated. but I could give it a whirl sometime

>>51502775
Gw pilfer designs and looks from all over, they use some roman elements but the core of skaven is nazi germany racial supremacy evil motherfuckers eating babies

Bull Gorge in necromunda is Spartacus as well, it's just a story with the numbers filed off and used to illustrate a characteristic of the shaven I.e they are all backstabbing selfish bastards.

>>51502977
Nailed it, spot on

>>51502775
The Tileans serve in Italian stereotypes, which most people would assume would translate to Roman anyway. Besides, Remember Remas, which was basically not!Rome? Luccian and Luccini, a less than subtle play on Romulus and Remus? The Roman influence isn't strong, and what there is seems based in the past because GW wanted Italian states rather than a Roman Empire, but it's still there.

The Skaven aren't strongly Roman enough for me to say that it was a definite inspiration. For all we know, the Skabicus story is more based around the idea of Spartacus than the actual Roman slave. Maybe the creators were mashing together everything that made an evil empire, and the idea of slaves and slave revolts got mixed in, so they got a little Roman-like stuff because the Romans did have slaves, as much as many cultures did. But you could also argue they were based loosely on Fascist Italy, which looked back to Rome in a lot of ways, or various other 'evil empires' throughout history, like the Nazi regime or North Korea. It's about as definite as any of the other theories people draw about Skaven.

If you want to make Plagicus Aurelipus and Clan Flavia, that's fine. What stuff you did point out is enough to homebrew your own Roman Skaven. But I don't think that the idea fits the skaven as a whole, and there's not enough Roman there for me to feel like 'yeah this is definitely a thing.'

>>51502977
You raise a good point about confusing with real-life counterparts being misleading, since these are fantasy races in a fantasy world after all.

I'd rather Chaos Dwarves be the 'everything terrible about Jews' thing. Sure, they're more industrial and have a vague Mesopotamian theme, but everything else you mentioned more or less checks out.

>>51501921
>I don't know why they even did it at all, beyond selling some new models.

>Why are company still trying to make money in 2017 ?? Making money is SO 2015

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>>51503198
I'm not denying that Skaven have other influences, I just see more Roman Republic/Empire than I do Third Reich. The Nazis may have had forced labour and conscripts from conquered territories but they didn't have legions of slaves thrown into a grinder so that their troops were spared. They were simply filling in the gaps on the Western Front because all the veteran troops were fighting the Russians. The Third Reich also had a lot of commanders that cared deeply for their men and more than a few disobeyed orders that would have gotten themselves and their boys killed for pointless reasons. There are no such Skaven commanders, they gladly send their fellows in to die if it means they have a second longer to run away.

I see Nazi influences, especially in the Wolfenstein super science, but I see more Roman influences in their slavery practices, their legions of conscripts and all the backstabbing. Maybe a bit of Roman/Byzantium, but Byzantium is Rome but longer lived.

>>51503267
You miss the point. If they just wanted money, they could have JUST released the models and nothing else. The lore presented was just a spit in the face. I'd have been happier if they just said 'we're done' instead of wrapping things up in the worst way possible.

>>51503270
I'm not saying that the Third Reich is the major influence for the Skaven - they're more generic evil empire than anything, something that has evolved into its own thing as far as fantasy goes, and is a mixture of various ideas of what makes an empire evil. Even if Nazi influences were stronger, I wouldn't expect them to be a realistic depiction of Nazis, because they would have to shift and change things to fit how Skaven themselves are supposed to be.

I just don't see the Roman things that you see being that prominent. It doesn't hurt that Roman ideas of slavery were not as simple as that of the Skavens, Roman conscription was based around civic duty rather than simply forcing everyone you could to fight, and backstabbing was present, but not as common in eras without civil strife. And, though this is more a bias than an actual argument, I tend to see the Roman Empire as more good than bad.

>>51495467

Kill-kill the heretic!

>>51496394

They're extremely fun to play while still being competitive, so a lot of people appreciate them.

Also arguably they have one of the most fleshed out societies

>>51496890

>no hunger for gold
>no banks
>no noses
>no golems
>no kabal magic
>extreme mingling between the various clans
>focus on SCIENCE!

>>51499135

They're briefly mentioned in the Skaven heraldry's book

>>51503349
I'm not saying that they're a bad faction. I just don't see why people find something that's obviously supposed to be unattractive attractive or cute.

>>51501813

To be honest, the codex explains quite well why they use dhar, and does not paint them in a "neutral" way.

They're presented as straight on evil. Yes they're noble, they have a rigid set of laws, they're honorable, but they're fundamentaly evil.

They have a functioning LE society.