Fighters

Just not playing PF/3.5 is really all you need

>>51461933
weeaboo fightan magic

>>51461956
FpBp.

>>51461956
This. Stop playing shitty RPG systems from 2001.

Use Tome of Battle or Path of War.

Or, play 4e.

Or, play something other than D&D.

>>51461933
Well the picture covers it. You are the meat, you are the one who survives. Proper DMs target wizards and clerics, and that shit HP goes poof under proper damage levels. You don't though. That's your power.
You can survive fireballs, and then make the enemy wizard go poof with its shit HP.

>>51461933
Fight for changes to the class.

>>51461933

As long as you aren't playing an edition of D&D with a 3 in it, they don't need fixing.

If you are playing an edition of D&D with a 3 in it God help you, don't play a Fighter.

>>51461933
Play 4e

>>51461933
you don't, becasue whenever a game gives the fighter equivilant abilities more impressive than "I hit it with my sword" everyone chimps out and starts screaming weeaboo.

mostly it seems more like fighter players don't want to be given more power or utility, they want everyone else's power and utility to be taken away.

>>51461933
Houserule the following for d20.

1: Enemies with 2 less hitdie than your BAB will be instantly killed if your damage exceeds their hitdie.
2: Excess damage is applied to the nearest foe, bypassing AC but not miss chance or DR.
3: A full attack is a single attack which multiplies all damage for every 5 points you beat the AC by, up to the maximum number of attacks you can make with that attack form.
4: You can prepare attack actions during a full attack to fire off when certain criteria are met.

Alternatively; stop playing 3.butthurt edition.

>>51461933
In our setting money is made from nullstones that is as abundant as silver/bronze/gold is in our earth.
So even a little coin nullify magic in a 100 kilometer range.
So there it is.

>>51462187

A friend of mine actually did a mechanical thought experiment- If you gave pure, non-multiclass fighters plus infinite to attack and damage, from level 1, how long do they stay relevant?

The answer was not much longer than normal. Around level 10 the actual number of opportunities there are for attack and damage to actually matter become minimal, if not nonexistent, and it only gets worse from there.

>>51462227
Give me infinite attack and damage and I'll dual-wield revolvers and load up on splash weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgLv9QhiarY

>>51462197
Unlikely that nullstones would be used as currency in a truly artistically considered economy.

>>51462197
Another homebrew that shits on mages without taking into account how it neuters martials as well.

I mean, good luck fighting anything over CR5 without magic (items) and shit.

>>51462467
Supernatural damage reduction would also get suppressed.

>>51462197

A 'solution' that removes magic from the equation entirely doesn't stop mundane classes being shit in things which suffer from 3.PF style caster supremacy. It just makes everyone shitty and boring.

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>>51461970
Lowkey, everyone loves weeaboo fightan magic.
It's only the self-conscious weeaboos who pretend to hate it.

>>51462515
Pretty sure DR is an Extraordinary ability.

Even if it was, something like a dragon is still going to fucking wreck you before you have a chance to kill it, especially since more than half the base classes can only afford to plink it with a crossbow now that magic is basically done.

>>51462197
That's pretty terrible. Making magic useless to the point where it's a wonder anyone even knows it exists isn't really a solution to anyone's problem in those shitty systems
>>51462515
Pretty sure there's no such distinction as "supernatural damage reduction" aside from spells that just give you DR

>>51462577
Well you better git fucking gud mate

>>51462719
You don't "git gud" against a creature that's twice your size (if it's young) and can just work its way down the line thanks to its five attacks, which do an assload of damage and will hit you since you won't have anything to bolster your shitty AC.

You can't even run from the damn thing since it has a breath weapon and a fly speed that's only beaten by a sufficiently leveled monk.

So no, that dragon is going to fucking wreck your shit, and there's nothing you can do about since weapon damage in D&D is dogshit.

Either weaboo fightan magic (which is entirely fine 90% of the time, only the uncreative can't see slicing so fast that you create a blade of air as awesome) or you make them stand up to myth like Hercules.

>>51463058
A level 10 fighter is stronger than Hercules.
Why downgrade?

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>>51462825
Pic related is Jan Zizka, one of history's biggest tactical badasses. In his major battles, he was often outnumbered 5-1 by heavily armored cavalry. Despite this, he sent them packing each time and never lost a battle.

How did he best the heavy cavalry? Because he wielded tactics, used the terrain, outfitted people based on their talents and skills, used innovative and largely unknown methods of winning, utilized gunpowder weapons, and is the great-grandfather of the modern tank with his armored wagons.

In short; Learn to use some proper tactics other than "Charge at it and hope for critical hits".

Sunder spell and natural magical ability.

>>51463073
Nigga, go read some actual Herakles.

Also, why are wizard turbonerds so often against beefy martials? Herakles and Conan alike both regularly wreck sorcerers and witches.

>>51463073
>A level 10 fighter is stronger than Hercules.
I don't know what fucking game you play but I want to play it. Cause in D&D, the implied game for this and all discussions where a game isn't expressly said, a fighter never reaches Hercules' level. Fucker was so strong the god of the Underworld didn't want to fuck with him. He was able to strangle a lion to death who was so large its teeth could be fashioned into blades. He moved a fucking river with his bare hands. Your DM fucking loves you if he lets you do this.

>>51463091
D&D is not a game that sufficiently rewards strategy unless you have a GM who is willing to bend the rules in your favor or for rule of cool. If it was, "charge at it and hope for critical hits" wouldn't be an optimum strategy for martials in the first place because things like grappling, tripping, and disarming would actually be viable tactics.

In either case, you're comparing a man going up against humanoids in sufficient arm to fighting against a creature that's not only the size of a large bus (when it's young) and can breathe anything from fire to acid to caustic gas, but is also stronger, faster, smarter, and tougher than most classes by default, in their youngest form.

A more apt description would be Jan Zizka going up against five helicopters armed with gatling guns capable of firing 22,000 rounds in six seconds, and even that's not really selling just how indomitable a dragon is without the aid of magic.

>>51463235
You're really wanking it to those dragons mate.

>>51463126
The only reason why Herakles and Conan were able to kill magic users is because magic users in those settings were strong, but needed prep time to really perform those world-ending spells.

If this were D&D, Conan would basically be a gimped Fighter/Rogue multi-class and the wizards he fights would just spam twinned, maximized fireball or use time-stop while dropping in a forcecage while opening up a gate to the elemental realm of fire.

>>51462157
But there are no fighters in 4e. Only casters.

>>51462227
> bow that autohits with instant damage
> someone made irrelevant by 5th level wizard spells

You're gonna have to elaborate here dude.

>>51461970
This. You need to make those who can manipulate the very fabric of reality and those who cannot equals somehow. Either you heavily tone down magic, or you heavily stretch the limits of the human body. To fight an archwizard you need a knight who can split mountains and tank a fucking meteor to the face like a champ.

>>51463235
Are you seriously using the flat battlefield fallacy in 2017?

>>51463280
>Implying Conan isn't a Warblade
>Implying the flavortext of Iron Heart Surge shouldn't be "BY CROM"

>>51463275
Stay on topic mate, the point I was making is that a setting that has null-stones that are powerful enough to nullify magic within 100km is going to fuck over the martials twice as hard as it would a mage since martials wouldn't be capable of fighting anything past CR5 without generous helpings of GM fiat.

Because of the way that WBL works in D&D, the game assumes that everyone in the party will have a certain amount of gear by the time they reach a certain level, which also means that the game assumes that everyone will be buffed up with a certain amount of gear that would give a bonus to their base stats. If magic gets nullified, that means that everyone is going to be gimped and unable to handle bullshit that would normally be within their level to defeat, which means that monsters would normally be difficult now become outright impossible since there'd be no way to buff your stats to a sufficient level.

>>51461933
Pathfinder
All fighters have the myrmidon fighter archetype from path of war.

3.5
Use the Marshall, or ToB.

Or just fucking cut the dead weight from the system and use one of the dozen good martials.

All of the things that would fix fighter get rejected for not being muggle enough for fighter fags. Its unsalvageable.

>>51463331
Your mistake is assuming that the enemy cannot utilize the environment as well, and let me tell ya, if it's a contest between ordinary humanoids and a creature that can use a tree as a toothpick w/o the aid of magic, the point is always going to go towards the latter, especially when they can be just as smart as a wizard.

>>51463385
>Implying that'd make a difference against a mage.

>>51462187
>How do we fix the class whose problem is the only thing it can do is kill stuff.
>Help it kill stuff even better.

BRILLIANT!

>>51463330
Except that shit is fucking gay. Anime is quite literally the worst garbage to ever exist. I tried watching RWBY because I was told it was a good story with cute girls shooting AUGs. It wasn't and I don't know why the fuck I thought that, or even who told me that, but just from the first episode it was the most over-the-top sensless bullshit I couldn't even enjoy it. It was just fucking retarded. Every other anime I've seen has been the same. It's stupid and nonsensical. See, magic at least provides an explanation for itself. It's magic. But there is no fucking explanation for a 10 year old girl swinging a helicopter-sized scythe to kill guys who look like they're straight out of A Clockwork Orange. Weeaboo Fightan Magic is bad, not because of the power level, but because it quite literally turned fighters into spellcasters, which led into 4e, which did not have any martials, only casters. 4e solved the martial-caster imbalance by turning martials into casters. Just like Star Wars Edge of the Empire "solved" the jedi balance issue by not including jedi as a PC option. It's a cop-out, by untalented designers who really should take an AIDS pill and walk off the edge of a skyscraper. Fuck these people, how hard is it to balance martials and casters in an interesting way? Make magic fucking matter, how about? Instead of giving the wizard some 8 page matrix of spells so I have to decipher 6/4/4/3/3/2/2 spells per day (shit that 5e just continued becuase the 5e dev team was a bunch of lazy cunts more concerned with making their game "progressive" than actually creating decent rules), how about giving a wizard fewer spells, keeping the ones they have and giving cantrip base attack spells so they can still feel like a wizard. That's how 4e structured casters, and you know what? It worked. It was a shitty system for the rest of the classes but it worked for wizards. Yet when it was time to develop 5e, did they keep it? No, because they are morons.

>>51462054
Wizurds and clerics are both significantly more durable than fighters, because they have access to things like DR, Miss chance, and immunities to Bad Things via Freedom of Movement, Death Ward, Delay Poison, Fly, Invisibility, Fickle Winds, etc.

Clerics have 2 good saves and 9 levels of spells in exchange for 1 less HP/level.

>>51463499
I don't like anime either, but goddamn, calm down anon. Don't forget you're on a korean face painting board.

for 3.5 you just add a feat more per level
this should allow him to stay fairly relevant even as other martial classes get access to magic

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>>51461933
Give them access to 4th level casting, which would allow them to make their own magic gear, provide useful low level puffs like Resist Energy to improve party resources, and significantly improve their out of combat utility.

In a system where in order to interact meaningfully with the world you need magic, offering multiple classes with no access to spellcasting and pretending it's on par with the classes that can class is incredibly dishonest and the epitome of ivory tower game design.

>>51463287

>But there are no fighters in 4e. Only casters.

Why do people keep repeating this moronic lie?

Also the spells don't even need to be fifth level http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm

>>51463627
Adding feats isn't going to give the Fighter more options because the feats that you would actually want to have, that do add options, are locked behind multiple prerequisites that make it so you'll never get them at a level where they'll be useful.

That and feats in 3.PF suck balls.

>>51463627
Congratulations on not solving anything.

>>51463605
Do not tell me to calm down. I am so fucking sick of this shit. Everyone on this board has read a shitton of anime or watched all these gay-ass youtube videos growing up and now everything has to be "epickk" like in Skyrim and WoW and Dark Souls and all the other stupid crap you kids play, you fuckers are the reason fantasy is a fucking joke now. This fucking worship of "funny D&D story" has completely destroyed fantasy RPGs. They are nothing more than a lottery to see who can roll the most ridiculous nat20 and have the best "I convinced the town guard captain to suck my cock while committing suicide" story to post for upvotes on Reddit and FunnyJunk. 3.5 and the furry bullshit that followed along with it created even more cancer, and this entire new set of "RPGs are all about fun and it's okay to play what you want as long as you're all having fun and as long as you're having fun it doesn't matter that you have lost any and all sense of immersion or giving a fuck about the story because as long as the majority of people are having fun it's okay and everyone else needs to get the fuck out, even if those people are the only ones still trying to play a roleplaying game." It's this whole new hipster attitude spawned by Cards Against Humanity where now D&D is just another way to chill with the bros. No, fuck you, these games mean something to some people and they shouldn't be scared to stand up for it, you wankers have destroyed these games with your vidya and youtube and anime references. RPGs used to be a sober and enjoyable activity and even though they had plenty of humor they didn't have to be constantly because they were fulfilling in a deeper way than other board games and social activities. They were a way to get together and create, even if it wasn't particularly original or creative, even if it was just killing dragons in a dungeon for a while. It meant something, and you fucking cunts have killed it over and over and shit into its grave.

>>51463675
You can't really be so dumb as to think that wind wall makes the ability to instantly kill anything worthless.

>>51463499
>>51463696

My fucking god, you are so angry you're practically incoherent.

>>51463696
calm down

>>51463675
>30% miss chance

So still a 70% chance to hit. And a 70% chance to insta-kill.

>>51463411
>All of the things that would fix fighter get rejected for not being muggle enough for fighter fags.

Maybe because giving fighters magic would mean they aren't fighters anymore?

>>51463707

The key part of it is >Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss

That is part of a widely available, pretty low level spell. It's far from the only example, but it's why even with infinite attack and damage fighters will still completely lose relevance past a certain points. Because magic has no end of ability to make attack and damage completely non-relevant and utterly ineffectual.

>>51463675
>Why do people keep repeating this moronic lie?

Because it's true. Fluff-wise, casters and martials in 4e are different. Mechanics-wise, they are no different. They do the same type of thing, at the same number of times per day.

Fighters in 4e are casters.

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>>51461933
Play M&M 3e rather then 3.PF.

>http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279503-D-amp-D-in-M-amp-M-a-new-approach-to-rebalancing-3-5-PF

>>51463696
But RPGs are about having fun with your friends. It's just a game, you don't need to take it so seriously.

>>51463499
>Nonsense rant without white space and random anime hatred.

It's not possible to make "guy stuck within what random authors assume a knight would be capable of" coop-balance alongside archmages, demigods, and summoners.

Either you need low magic, or everyone has magic, or magic + anime nonsense, or magic + superheroes, or you accept that you're deliberately making your mundanes weaker than mages.

>>51463741

No, they're not.

Literally the only thing the same is the formatting. How their powers work, what they do, the nuances of the class mechanics... They all remain distinctly different and create a different experience in play. And that's what matters- How it plays out.

Honestly, I think 4e did better class distinction than 3.PF. Even within a category like martials or casters, every classes unique mechanics and the way they fulfil their role really shine through in how they interact with combat. of course, you'll only know this if you actually bother to play the game without stupid preconceptions, hence why the idiotic lies about 4e continue to be spread.

>>51463726
>So still a 70% chance to hit. And a 70% chance to insta-kill.
You'd still have to hit their AC and that's also not taking into affect shit like cover either.

>>51463798
Infinite bonus to hit in this thought experiment, buddy.

Fire Emblem.
There, I said it.

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>>51463073

>>51463726
>>51463798

The miss chance only applies against things which aren't arrows and bolts- Arrows and bolts miss immediately. And given the original poster was making a point about an insta-kill bow remaining relevant past level 10, it was a specific counteproint showing it could be rendered irrelevant much earlier than that.

>>51463798
Don't forget the fact that Displacement, Blink and Mirror Image all stack to give a percent chance to hit in the single digits.

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>>51463696

>>51463814
I like fire emblem, but it's also really simple. Fighters and mages really aren't all that mechanically different when you think about it.

>>51463829
So the wizard just gets 4 free rounds to buff before the fighter instantly kills him?

>>51461933
Stop listening to /tg/ and their insanely OP interpretation of magic. Magic does what it says in the rules, not some liberally applied logical conclusion. It's magic. It does not follow logic.

And literally every interpretation of magic users /tg/ uses assumes a lot. For instance, that everyone is high level and prepared, and that the DM basically allows every liberal interpretation without question. One "argument" I've seen for Wizards having unlimited wealth is that they can travel across planes and thus go to the Earth plane, and gain access to its mineral wealth. No mention of the mining operation needed, or the dangers involved. Just the assumption that it would be an insta-win.

All you have to do is not be an insufferable autist.

I give fighters a free martial adapt feat at level 7.
Also spell casters need to seek and learn new magic if they want it in their toolbox.

That's something I guess. Working out so far.

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>>51463696
You just need to find your waifu.
This one's really good with big balls.

>>51463726
>making fighters not be tier 5 means they're no longer fighters.
Thats why fighters are unsalvageable.

Non-magic classes have no business in d&d outside npc classes. They cannot be made equal to mages without giving them a variety of utility powers and combat abilities that are not about attacks or damage.

I mean, I guess you could make them into techno-artificers like Iron-Man, but I suspect you wouldn't be happy with that either.

Fighters can't be fixed. What's wrong with them is what Fighterfags like about them. They just wish they were playing a different game.

>>51463862
each of those buffs can last hours. I'm more surprised you haven't seen wizurds buffing up at the start of an adventuring day before. It's not like the fighter's gonna surprise the wizurd when one of the wizurd's class features can literally be "cannot be surprised".

>>51463812
Infinite bonus to hit isn't going to allow you to shoot an arrow through a stone wall w/o magic kiddo.
>>51463862
If he's far enough to where he cannot hit the wizard with a melee attack then the wizard will have enough time to stack those spells since the Fighter's arrows and bolts immediately miss.

>>51463770
Yeah except low magic is the only good option of those, literally none of the novels I have read that aren't based off of D&D have got wizards anywhere on par with D&D shit. They aren't fucking constantly teleporting or creating Locate City Bombs or shit, magic has lost all meaning in D&D due to oversaturation to the point where you can't even explain it to normal people because you need to explain the fact that you are playing a guy who is casting twenty spells per second. None of this exists in actual fantasy literature. None of it. Find me one with the kind of out of cnotrol bullshit like D&D. Actually just find me a fantasy novel where magic is treated as casually as D&D. Magic doesn't even fucking matter in D&D. It is complete background noise. Oh look a magic missile. it doesn't mean shit. Oh look a finger of death or cloudkill. Oh look it killed everyone in the town square, but it STILL DOESN'T MEAN SHIT.

Magic is fuckign mundane in D&D and all it leaves behind is the balance issue. The problem is that you fuckers are so burned out on anime that absolutely nothing has any meaning to you. Roleplaying hunting for food in the woods? FUCK THAT I CAN CAST CREATE FOOD. Why the FUCK wouldn't you? But remember, anything that isn't directly related to the main plot and isn't a fucking battle, is just a waste of time. Looking for food? Describing the scenery while travelling? Everything that gave fantasy any meaning? No, fuck that shit, it's not entertaining my ADHD-addled brain, enough to light up all my pleasure receptors at once, like a fucking video game, so I want no part of it. Because every RPG session should have at least three episodes of uncontrollable raucous laughter or else it's not fun enough for me, I could be out drinking microbrews with my bros and discussing the latest Foo Fighters album. Well go do that, then, fuckwit, and I hope you choke on Dave Grohl's bearded cock. High fantasy ruined RPGs.

>>51463870

The 'Insanely OP interpretation' is taking the rules as written.

Sure, most casters won't go for the hyper-optimal theoretical options... But even going for the most basic, simple options in 3.PF, they're still leagues ahead of martial both in and out of combat.

The GM being able to houserule it or accommodate for it doesn't stop the problem existing.

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>>51463696
I'm not even going to point how this is probably bait or whatever it could be, since it's such a shallow mashup of all the funny grognard maymays constantly spewed on this board that even if the author was serious it wouldn't make it less irrelevant.

>>51463870
>Magic does what it says in the rules, not some liberally applied logical conclusion.

I agree but sometimes the rules are even more fucktarded than logic. Like logic would say that even in severe winds you should have a chance to hit with a bow. But these dumbfucks are just like "lulz nope, it auto-misses."

THAT is what pisses me off about 3.5 more than anything else.

>>51463499
RWBY isn't an anime, idiot, it is western.

>>51462026
Fighters are the best class throughout TSR D&D.

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>>51463899
Kinda just sounds like you have really linear tastes, fampai.

>>51463870
Wind Wall is a 3rd level spell that makes a wizard immune to bows and crossbows and even then, any other form of ranged attack gets a 30% miss chance, on top of any other shit like blink, mirror image, or displacement that would make their miss chance somewhere in the single digits.

This is taken as RAW, as in, what the spell does by default. In a fight where a bowman has infinite attack and damage, they get shut down by a single spell that's available as early as level 5 and there are other spells that are around that level of bullshit.

>>51463870
Except what magic does in the rules IS insanely OP a lot of the time, or at least strides ahead of non-magic utility and damage.
Not to mention a lot of monsters just don't take nonmagical damage.

>>51461933
Climb DCs for air, break DCs or hardness for force (e.g. forces), (EX) Supernatural abilities, better saves, more skill points, better grapple rules, "immunity vs (thing)" spells (Freedom of Movement, et al) should provide a bonus against (thing), not flat immunity.

By the time the Wizard is capable of flying for more than a couple rounds a day, the fighter should be able to charge into the air at a flying opponent about as easily as he could charge up a slope of loose rock at low level.

By the time the Wizard can conjure a wall of iron, the Fighter should be able to break the wall of iron in a round or two. By the time the Wizard is force caging, cloud killing, and dimensional dooring, the fighter should have good odds of breaking the force cage, holding his breath for the duration of cloud kill, and be able to kick down the dimensional door to drag the Wizard back.

>>51463896
The longest duration for one of those spells listed is 1 minute/level, not something you're likely to have prepared all the time.
>>51463898
If there was a stone wall in the way then the wizard wouldn't be able to target the fighter easier, you goof. Also are we supposed to just assume that the fighter starts a mile away in an open field where the wizard can clearly see him coming?

>>51463696
Sorry dude. I tried. Don't have the patience to read a page-long paragraph thats mostly random cursewords. Try some white space some time.

>>51463926
You might be surprised to learn that even in mundane weather, it can be impossible to make ranged attacks.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/weather

If you wanted to get really dumb, you could argue that Wind Wall lets you make Medium creatures take a strength check just to move. Then the DM throws the book at you.

>>51463676
the idea with adding more feats was exactly enable the fighter to get those feats with more prerequisites
it could also allow him to branch out more depending on what he needs or wants

also drop the 3.5 hate if you intend to have a almost civil discussion
>implying thats possible

>>51463926
Yup, all immunity from X spells should be big bonus against X spells instead.

>>51463977

>Climb DCs for air

Man, this reminds me of Legend. I wish that project didn't die the way it did, it was so fucking cool.

It was a D&Desque system which really embraced how over the top and silly D&D really was, so it had things like a DC of 35 for Athletics, Acrobatics and Climb to literally fly, with lower DCs granting various levels of temporary flight.

It also had the most hilarious and amazing feats, really cool character generation and... Fuck. It sucks so bad that it'll never be complete.

>>51463895
How about toning down spells to still be bad-ass, but not completely fucking broken like Wind Wall and Web.

Hell, web isn't even a fun spell. It's a fucking piece of shit. Let me tell you something, once the dick-asses in my group discovered Web, they never wanted to cast anything else. And if it was a cool spell I wouldn't mind, but it's a fucking asshole spell. First off we had to draw where the web was on the grid which took up 15 to 20 seconds, sometimes 30 seconds if I didn't already have the marker near me and had to get it back out again. Oh and we needed to use the battle grid, ebcause otherwise these cunts would have spent hours quibbling with me over how many of the enemy they caught in the web. Then they had to roll whatever bullshit save that didn't matter anyway because they were pretty much automatically stuck. These twats had to roll a DC 20 Strength check just to move 5 feet. Not slowed, no, these cunts are just automatically locked down and they couldn't even bow them to death, at least not the ones at the center, so it was just a constant slog of like twenty rounds until the fucking web expired, rolling like twenty strength checks a turn because these evil fucks cast them on like ten orcs that were literally killable by the fighter without even trying, or the wizard even. Fucking 1st level orcs in this one case. But no instead of fighting them, it was just Web Web Web. God i hate that fucking spell. Glitterdust, too. They always made their saves when I used it on them, the cheating fucks, but they used it on me once and it ruined the battle. I fucking hate these spells. D&D would be fine if they just removed about a dozen spells, but no, they have to keep these because if they remove them some dumb fucker who lives in his mom's basement and jacks it to anime will whinge on the Wizards forums because the only fulfillment he found in life was using that spell and laughing at the DM while he rolled a dozen saves.

>>51464017

You could give fighters every single feat they possibly qualified for and an equivalent level wizard would still completely outdo them.

>>51464027
I think I have a copy of that in PDF. Don't remember which version, though.

>>51463980
I'm saying that a wizard could cast a spell to create a wall of stone you fucking mongoloid.

Also, if the Fighter could get to the wizard within one round of movement then why the fuck are they bothering to shoot them with an arrow in the first place?

Not to mention, if the wizard just does something like casting fly, he essentially becomes immune to both melee and ranged attacks as well.

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>>51461933
Give them more memes

>>51463900
>>51463926
>>51463960
>>51463964
Sure, there's a disparity. But /tg/ tends to massively overblow it, like in the example given. /tg/ also assumes a lot of things, like a Wizard having access to all his spells all the time, but in the game itself you only get a few of them at a time. They run out. But the same isn't true for a lot of the Martial capabilities. They will always be able to hit shit hard with a sword.

There's a strange form of bias going on coupled with video game mentality that softens player mistakes. And no matter which way you turn it, there will always be DM responsibility at the end of it. I've had this same problem in non-D20 games, where for instance one guy has access to endgame armour, and the best solution as to just quietly uptier the enemies with armour piercing weapons. Of course, I didn't do that, and the session was a total wash, with me only realizing the obvious later on.

>>51464017
Even if you gave a fighter infinite attack, infinite damage, every feat in the game, and infinite HP, they'd still end up getting fucked by a wizard of equal power simply because magic allows for outright immunity, can target people w/o them making a save, can bypass Spell Resistance, or just comes down to a roll that makes you Save or Lose/Save or Die.

That's the issue here, not them not having access to enough feats.

>>51463939
> linear tastes

What the fuck does that even mean?

>>51463931
It's complete shit, that's what it is.

How the fuck is it a Western?

> idiot

Kill yourself you worthless virgin fuck. I'm sorry if I don't spend my entire life memorizing your stupid anime. Listen, fucker, I played 3.5 for years, before switching to better systems (not D&D by the way (and not GURPS either)). I didn't get pissy and elitist about people not knowing the rules and lore, the same way you anime cunts get pissy and elitist over your stupid shows.

Listen up.

It's. A. Fucking. Cartoon.

Nobody cares about whether it's an anime or a western or some other shit. It's a cartoon with little girls that squeak even though they are seventeen and give you an excuse for your latent paedophilia. Just stop it, okay? No one cares. You remind me of the mouth-breathing autist I used to go to community college with when I was trying to finish gen-ed credits for cheap. He would never shut the fuck up about his autistic video games and would get annoyed at me whenever I mis-remembered something while I was trying to pretend I was interested in his stupid shit. Like, shut the fuck up retard, I don't even give a shit about you, I'm just talking to you because I have the feeling if you get socially rejected one more time you might actually commit suicide and someone might figure out I was one of the triggers and sue me or some shit. Like I have some legal obligation to hang out with this autist.

Browsing /tg/, is exactly like that.

>>51463899
>I WANT A LOW MAGIC GAME, NOT D&D
Then play one?

D20 Conan does that pretty well, as does GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, and Unisystem.

But D&D is a crunchy fantasy superheroes game.

>Fighter-fags want to play a different game.

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>>51461933
>>51461956

Like, I know the best solution isn't reinventing the wheel and just getting a different setup, but 3.5 draws the crazy crunch folks for a reason and one of them is figuring out how to manage and balance resources and options in a broken system. This thread comes up a lot and it's probably trolling but that doesn't mean it can't be fun.


Now then, I'm not going to go find my damn notebook where I scribbled some shit together to this effect a few weeks ago but I'll go over some little fixes I came up with for it.

1) Keep all the bonus feats. They're weak in comparison but they give you options and are what the class is built around; fighting options that create a chain of combative effects of some variety.

2) add utility. At 3rd level a Fighter gathers renown among the local community for their skills and is considered to have a "Favor" pool with any given NPC that knows of them and their exploits equal to 5gp multiplied by the number of combat feats they have. This can be for little bribes for help, getting past guards who're open to such things, or just extra tools and such.

3) A 5th level fighter has had enough experience that they know the Tools of their Trade. They can bargain for them better, avoid poor offers, and in some cases craftsmen are honored to see their works in the hands of such a warrior; a 5th level Fighter discounts 5% from the cost of any un-enchanted weapons or armor they purchase, or can craft them at that discount from the base price if they have the skill (Maximum 50%, meaning purchasing them at cost of crafting, though the DM should take into account NPCs at higher levels who might have crafting discount feats to reduce it further.) This can apply to Masterwork or even rare material equipment such as adamantine or mithril arms and armor.

More after, hit cap.

>>51464090
>cast fly
>move 60 feet in the air
>get shot and die instantly
So I guess if the wizard casts wall of stone the fighter is bound by a code of honor to just stand still for 5 rounds?

>>51464134

>Stop liking what I don't like!

>>51463899
Thanks for the whitespace dude. I didn't get too frustrated to read this one.

>>51464053
the wizard requires way more xp though, if you said equally experienced fighter it would supposedly be a fair match
look we can both agree wizards get insanely strong but this requires they survive long enough to get to that point

>>51461933
5E fighters literally fixed them.
There's Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight for people who want variety and flexibility in their combat.
And Champion for people who don't want to play D&D and are half-asleep the entire session.

>>51464048
In 5e the retarded spells have largely been reworked. You might want to stop playing the version of the game from 17 years ago.

>>51464152
>Cast Wind Wall to be immune to ranged attacks.
>Cast Fly to be immune to melee attacks.
Wow, so fucking difficult to do.

>>51464134
I really hope that's a pasta.

>>51464173

5e martials are an incomplete fix. Better, but far from perfect.

While they're a lot more useful given that the system has less options to ignore the combat system entirely, they still have very few interesting options in combat or real choices to make, while their out of combat utility continues to be garbage.

>>51464162

>the wizard requires way more xp though

Not in any edition after 2e

>>51464180
How many free turns does this wizard get? Also fighters can fly if you got the right magic item, which is reasonable if your dm pulls shit like this.

>>51464106
>like a Wizard having access to all his spells all the time
Since wizards can create scrolls, wands, staffs, etc. at their leisure, they might as well count for having access to their spells at all time.
>They will always be able to hit shit hard with a sword.
If you were in a fight where you had to fight against an apache attack helicopter with a knife, would it really matter that the helicopter could theoretically run out of ammo?
>Of course, I didn't do that, and the session was a total wash, with me only realizing the obvious later on.
Why did he have endgame armor in the first place?

>>51464198
Eh, maneuvers and spells give them a good amount choice past "I hit it with my sword."
It's an improvement from 3.5, at least.
Casters only being able to concentrate on one spell also does wonders for balance.

>>51461933
By playing Anima.

>>51464251

From what I've read, there's no martial archetype which gets access to a reasonable amount of manoeuvres. It's depressing, after how awesome the Tome of Battle was. The original 5e fighter in the playtest packets was amazing, but they dumbed it down so much.

>>51464090
Technically since we're assuming the bow does infinite damage, the fighter could destroy it by shooting it, then shoot the wizard dead with his next attack since he has two by level 10.

>>51464222
>Also fighters can fly if you got the right magic item, which is reasonable if your dm pulls shit like this.
The minute we go into assumptions like this, the Fighter is going to lose horribly.

Are you positive you want to go down this road?

>>51463983
>Don't have the patience to read a page-long paragraph

See, this is the crux of roleplayers nowadays. They no longer want an in-depth, rich world. And by that I don't mean one where the mating habits of the iron hills trolls are deeply detailed, i mean a world that actually feels like a world, not the characters' fucking playground. These faggots don't even have the patience for an actual campaign anymore. They whinge and bitch over anything and everything. Campaign doesn't have enough plot. Campaign doesn't have enough combat. Campaign has too much combat. campaign feels too open. The GM's gender politics are bothering me. The DM is too controlling. The DM doesn't create enough adventuring hooks. The DM's adventure is too dark. The DM is too edgy. The DM's adventure is too emotionally shallow. The DM doesn't make us laugh enough. Why isn't this more like Skyrim?

You know what? Go fuck yourselves. None of you pissants even know what RPGs were like before this shit started. Before video game pricks invaded it and lore-dumped WoW crap into a character that, guess what? doesn't exist in fucking WoW because we are not playing WoW we are playing D&D you stupid piece of shit. But when you're playing 4e you might as well be playing WoW which just lent more credence to these faggots. They also keep the same lessons as video games so they literally kill off an NPC for no fucking reason. And now DM guides are quite literally written around accounting for these lol-random fucks, so the result is that most DMs are too pussified to create an actual story, because that would be railroading. No, that would be keeping an actual plot going, you fucking mongoloid, despite your best attempt to derail it. Not to mention when the plot is left open you drooling computer-slave fucktards lack even a sliver of creativity to come up with a solution to an open challenge.

Continued in next post

>>51464251
>Maneuvers
You mean the thing that exactly one subclass of Fighter gets because WOTC was too much of a scaredy-cat to make it a Fighter class feature?

>>51464292
For example there was a cool trap room in a game run by an older DM I know and like a lot, and I respect his creativity, and his trap room was actually practical unlike 90% of puzzle rooms whose existence make no sense. But what did the party do? They spent five (5) minutes trying to figure it out, before they gave up and starting whinging and bitching about how "grognardDM always creates these puzzles that only he knows the answer to and he always makes it too difficult" and blah-blah-blahblablablabla just shut the fuck up you entitled fuckwit, how about you actually try to play the fucking game before you just give up on it like that? I'm sorry if it wasn't spoonfed to you like everything is in your precious video games. Maybe actually try? Plus these dumbfucks all rush in using zero tactics because that's how they fight in le epickk anime so they get killed and bitch at the DM even more for not making every encounter of their exact level.

Fuck 'em. And fuck modern gamers.

>>51464292

Not wanting to read your long, angry rants doesn't show a lack of attention span. It shows common sense.

>>51464212
welp looks like memory was off about that
well in that case we bring level adjustments back for PC´s
now the question is just how much that would screw with CR´s

>>51464150
Thematically I think giving fighters random discounts on items is questionable, but the other problem is that it only helps on the premise that the players are able to freely buy whatever magic items they want. An easier fix would just be to use tome of battle classes or making the shitty non-magic classes gestalt adepts

>>51464150
>"Fixes" the fighter by turning them into a merchant with loads of money
>Implying this money wouldn't be better spent on the wizard
Bruh...

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>>51464195
It can't be a pasta. He's made like 5 fucking posts like that.
I've never seen someone who's so dedicated to letting the world know that he's pissed about Mongolian animation endeavors for pubescent females.

>>51464284
It's not my fault that flight is one of the worst thought out parts of the mess that is 3rd edition. Also are we just assuming that the wizard wins initiative or what, because it seems you could kill a wizard of any level if you go first and can instantly kill them from anywhere withing 1000 feet.

>>51464212
And barely even in 2e. Someone ran the numbers, and they level comparably fast overall.

>>51464195
> people never type out anything, only repost meme text blocks

Some of us aren't lazy like you, friend.

>>51464252
Best solution.

>>51464277
Read
>Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss
Doesn't matter how much damage you're capable of dealing, the RAW states that arrows and bolts automatically miss.

If it were possible to bypass it once you reach a certain damage threshold, the wind wall would have something like HP or hardness to determine whether these attacks go through.

>>51464310
This is some dedication to shitposting right here, I respect that.

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>>51464292
>Fuck all you dumb sjw fucks
>Continued in next post
Bad day eh?

>>51464234
>at their leisure

See, that's an assumption. Creating shit takes time. When you're raiding the tomb of the dread king, fighting undead, deciphering hieroglyphs, solving puzzles, you don't have time. Time is a resource, and if you're handing out unlimited resources in your game, you shouldn't complain the ones who can utilize it the most are getting overpowered.

>blahblahblah attack helicopter

And that's a shitty attitude. It's a useless comparison, and you're just reinforcing your own shitty attitude towards the game. If you're too dense to get the point I'm trying to make, just don't play the fucking game, Anon.

Honestly, it's fucking ridiculous that even this comparison is bullshit. You do realize that it's the base doctrine of any military to attack enemy materiel when it's most vulnerable, right? So yeah, those special forces guys DO attack helicopters with knives. When the helicopters are on the ground, and their crews asleep in the barracks. Shit, there was one SAS guy in WWII who disabled enemy aircraft with his bare fucking hands by ripping the controls out of the cockpit. Take your shitty comparison somewhere else.

>Why did he have endgame armor in the first place?

Because he could have it according to the rules of this non-D&D, non-PF, non-D20 game. The GMing guide of same advises doing exactly the shit you say you can't do: You use your power as a GM to level the playing field.

>>51464367
So we're just assuming he already has wind wall up? How many free spells does he get? Why would he put wall of stone up if wind wall was already up?

>>51464351
They even level faster than fighters around level 8.

>>51464367
things like that were indeed bullshit

a truly skilled archer should be able to account for a wind wall by shooting his arrow at the right angle it enters the wind below the wizard and is deflected upwards right into his arsehole

At certain levels and upwards you are supposed to be among the very best in the world at your chosen craft after all

>>51464284
>The minute we go into assumptions like this

Assumptions like the Wizard getting two free turns to cast all the spells that make him powerful? Assumptions like that a Wizard in a game called Dungeons & Dragons is never in a dungeon?

You're basically assuming the best situation for a spellcaster, and then saying he's OP. That's like saying martial classes are OP, because if they are standing next to each other a Fighter could pulverize a Wizard before he can even say anything.

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>>51464150
>>51464150

Side-note, add in PF's Weapon and Armor Training features, -1 armor check penalty, +1 max dex at 3rd and every 4 levels after, and +1 to hit and damage with a specific weapon group at 5th and every 5 after that.

At 6th level, a Fighter has already seen the advantage of cooperating with the party and knows their stuff well enough to teach it too. By training for a day, a Fighter can grant some of their training to another character. At 6th, they may grant one Profficiency they know to those that train under their guidance. At 9th level, they may teach one Combat/Fighter feat they know. At 12th level those they teach may share in their Weapon or Armor Training feature as a fighter of 1/4th the student's ECL. At 15th level level students may learn Two combat/fighter feats, and at 18th they count as a fighter of 1/2 their ECL for the purpose of determining the benefit of the shared Weapon and Armor training. Any feat or feature gained this way lasts indefinitely, but can only be granted once per character each time the Fighter gains a level, and learning another feature or feat of the same type replaces previous training.

Master of Them All: At 12th level, a Fighter's reputation is such that even Nobility have heard of them, and respect their skill even if they do not always look kindly on the fighter. Any NPC of noble standing, or equivalent there-of (financially powerful, elected officials and such may also suffice) is considered to have some knowledge of the Fighter's reputation and, with a successful diplomacy check modified with +1 per combat feat they have taken may provide aid to the extent of 2,000gp per the Fighter's class level. This may take the form of items of wealth, services provided, or other support at the DM's discretion.

>>51464342
I'm just saying mate, if you're going to assume that the Fighter has the perfect magic item to counter the wizard's spell then I'm going to assume that the Wizard already has access to the perfect magic item to counter the Fighter's magic item.

And since Wizards can produce magic items by default, the point is going to go into the Wizard's favor, especially since having a magic item that allows for flight would mean that the wizard would only have to cast wind wall to become practically immune to the Fighter's melee and ranged attacks, while also being free to cast another spell like, I dunno, dispel magic at the Fighter.

>>51464441

The assumptions being made aren't even that extreme though. And I feel like that's kinda the point.

Even assuming a ludicrously powerful advantage on the fighters part (infinite attack and damage), a Wizard can still make them useless with two spells.

>>51464178
Except 5e is a fucking terrible game. 5e solves the caster issue by destroying most of their cool abilities and turning Slay Living into literal damage, turning poison into damage (so why even have poison if it's just a bit of extra damage?), and generally pussifying the game in general. Damage is bloated to keep with hp bloat instead of just having lower hp like D&D, it has orcs that start out with 15 hp because of how terribly balanced the game is, everything needs to have like 20 hit dice to even be competitive at 8th level because of how insanely powered the classes are, and it also keeps the game from being anything but about the damage, there are no interesting maneuvers to make, there is no organicness because the game creates all the solutions for you, why bother being creative when you can just swing 80 times per round. 5e may have balanced the game but so did 4e and both editions fucking suck. AD&D sucked too but at least it only sucked in having nonsensical and inelegant rules, it was a much more mature and rich fantasy world, back when it was mysterious, back when drow weren't in the FUCKING PLAYERS HANDBOOK ONE, back before players insisted on playing fucking half-gnome necromancers and whatever other gay shit they could come up with, guess what nigger, your latest race-class combination is not interesting, and the proliferation of new races just shows how shitty at roleplaying the new generation of gamers are if they think that is good. If your character concept doesn't work as a human, elf, dwarf, or orc, then your concept just doesn't fucking work. If you need a homebrew race to make an interesting character, you are a fucking terrible roleplayer and this hobby is not for you. No, you can't play a motherfucking Argonian, or a Blood Elf, because THOSE DO NOT EXIST IN THIS SETTING, and no I am NOT a shitty DM for not letting you play those, I am not a shitty DM for not spreading my ass-cheeks for your aspergers to ruin the game.

>>51464342
>Also are we just assuming that the wizard wins initiative or what

Yes, because there's a spell for that. Nerveskitter. Any caster worth anything is going to take it because it's a first level spell that gives you a pretty big bonus (+5) to initiative rolls.

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>>51464134
>Dives off the deep end ranting about some fuck at his school
Wow son, u mad.

>>51464441
If he cannot fly away then he'd just use blink or displacement or mirror image or invisibility or any other fucking spell that would make him virtually immune to any attack that the Fighter attempts to throw at him.

Also, you're missing the entire point here, because with only one spell, I've completely shut down at least half of your options for attacking my wizard, and it's only a third level spell. Let me repeat, a 3rd level spell makes me immune to any ranged attack you make with a (cross)bow and you're still trying to claim that wizards aren't that powerful?

>>51464411
It's fuckin magic, Anon. But as usual, people are only quoting the parts they don't like.

>Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance.

Huh, so the answer is as simple as picking up a fucking rock and throwing it. Or, you know, packing a sling, one of the cheapest, simplest weapons in the game.

>>51464483
>There's a spell for that
God, that should just be 3.5's tagline at this point.

>>51464410
Yeah, that was one of the important things they picked out when doing the numbers. I just couldn't remember the exact level, so I wasn't totally sure if I was making it up or not.

>>51464471
>Autistic screeching intensifies
Basic bitch.

>>51464471
>>51464178
And I should add that 5e decided to split the races into two different subraces. Because being an elf isn't SPECIAL enough for millenial gamers. Now they have to be a wood elf or else they might realize that there are 7 billion people in the world just like them and that they don't matter at all, and one day will rot and die and exactly 3 people will remember them after they die. No one gives a fuck. Stop trying to make new homebrew races. The vast fucking majority of homebrew I see for 5e, are homebrew races. Why? They don't matter. This isn't fucking Star Wars, we don't need 8 million species of space nigger to pull off a convincing narrative. Drow? They are evil elves and would be shot on sight. Tieflings? They are literal demonspawn and would be shot on sight. Kender? The little fuckers would be put to the death within hours of their release upon the world. You think America is bad for how it treats criminals? Think back to the middle ages when stealing a copper coin would get your dick broiled and eaten in front of you. Now imagine the kind of mass larceny these giggling Kithkin rip off fuckers create. They'd be dead. Yet now all these characters who are literally incompatible with society, are presented as options. No, fuck that. There are maybe 1 or 2 races outside of core races, that are at all interesting as character options. The rest are just excuses to be different. Fuck that.

>>51464559
Not an argument.

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>>51464471
So, what you're saying is...
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>51464522
No one is saying that wizards aren't the best, that's why we're assuming that the fighter has infinite hit and damage. If you cast blink round 1, the fighter has two attacks at level 10 so your odds of survival aren't great.

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>>51464320
A fighter uses weapons to do their thing. Making them more available was the ideal goal here. We all already know about the ToB option and that wasn't ever in question as an option, I'm just spitballing an alternative.

>>51464321
If a fighter starts using that to turn a profit the % discount will start going down as a penalty maybe, but that's the sorta shit that gets books thrown around in the first place. The goal is to make sure the Fighter has the tools for the job at hand; a weapon for every situation, armor to handle whatever comes up, etc. At lower levels mundane and cheap alchemical gear is useful and having extra cash on hand to buy them is the intent here. Maybe I should change it to mostly having a pool of value to buy consumables exclusively instead.

In the mean time though, it's not money on its own, it's favor earned among the local NPC communities. If the Fighter decides vouching for their wizard buddy's worth it to them, that's between the players, PC's and DM.

>>51464566
So this isn't a copypasta right? How does one man do it?

>>51464588
No, what I'm saying is, 5e is a bad RPG because it solves one issue while creating ten more.

That should basically be D&D's tagling at this point for each new edition.

>>51464611
By being an underage bitch

>>51464584
That would imply you deserve one, BB.

>It goes into a I don't like races rant
>Says 4e is shit out of the blue
Virt?

>>51464464
Yet you start bitching when someone suggest that maybe the Fighter has magic items that would allow him to fly.

That's just the problem, here. You're always assuming optimal conditions for the Wizard, and saying that they will always win because of it.

Honestly, I'm convinced most of you don't actually even play the fucking game. Because I've never actually seen this shit happen in-game, because when you're playing the game it's not some rock, paper, scissors sort of thing like everyone here seems to assume. It's an organic experience with circumstances that differ wildly. Your Wizard's shit could easily be completely fucking useless, depending on the environment or enemies.

>>51464522
Same goes for you. I've never seen this "one spell shut down" go down repeatedly in any game I've been in. It might happen once, or twice, but the next time circumstances are different, or the player fucks up, or whatever. I've seen so many wild claims like this on this board that never actually materialize IRL. Shit, I've heard this claim of "one spell shut down" about spells that I've used, and lo and behold, half the enemies actually make their saves and the fighters at the front do their fucking jobs by cutting them down.

>>51464621
I would have to undergo some pretty serious brainwashing to think that 5e has more problems than 3e.

Provide more magic items that only the fighter needs.

>>51464524
The problem is that the range on both of those options is shittier than either a bow or a crossbow, that and you'd still have to deal with a 30% miss chance as well.

>>51464542
That might have been me. I was the one that made all the Excel graphs.

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>thread goes from "how to make fighters great again"
to
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
in five seconds flat

>>51464566
>subraces
>a 5e invention
Hownew.ru

>>51464672
Oh, radical.

Thank you for doing all that shit. Its basic stuff, but I just don't have a head for numbers.

>>51464611
It's called having a job. I learned to type quickly. It's how I get more work done and have more time for RPGs. Sadly they are mostly played by entitled videogame addicts with ADHD but I still have a group I enjoy playing with.

>>51464704

So you didn't actually make any friends in your old groups? Can't imagine why.

>>51464524
>let me come to literally melee range to be able to through rocks and slingrocks at you with only a 30%
Now that we're at it why not fucking hit him with a sword? Oh, because he's flying

>>51464649

Different person, and they weren't bitching. They were pointing out that every time you give an advantage to the Fighter to try and make up the difference, it's logical to give the same one to the Wizard, and the Wizard will likely benefit more from it.

We're not saying these exact examples will come up in every game, but they're an effective way to illustrate a point- That martial characters suffer massively from being overly focused on a single aspect of combat while casters are given a huge number of options which allow them to be more effective than a Fighter could ever hope to be in terms of utility, and more often than not entirely eclipse them in combat anyway.

This is worth being aware of and acknowledging because it helps you avoid them. Downplaying the problems or acting like they don't exist is just wilful ignorance.

>>51464690
5e forced you to pick one. 3.5 at least left the default races in the core book then explained those were actually "high elves" and "hill dwarves" in the monster manual. It was still shitty but less shitty.

>>51464662
You should probably undergo some pretty serious brainwashing anyway. With bleach.

>>51464704
Just because you can type that much doesn't mean you should.

>>51464391
>When you're raiding the tomb of the dread king, fighting undead, deciphering hieroglyphs, solving puzzles, you don't have time
We'd have time while the martials are busy resting to restore their HP from a previous combat scenario. That and it wouldn't take into account the times that the party isn't raiding a tomb or some shit either.
>It's a useless comparison, and you're just reinforcing your own shitty attitude towards the game.
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs
There's a reason why people use guns rather than swords, even when guns have a finite amount of bullets to fire.
>Because he could have it according to the rules of this non-D&D, non-PF, non-D20 game.
Sounds like either a shitty game or a shitty GM then. Sorry.

>>51464471
>If your character concept doesn't work as a human, elf, dwarf, or orc, then your concept just doesn't fucking work
If you can't convey an idea or a point in less than 50 words your point is shit. Maybe think about it next time you go on a underage entitled rant.

>>51464670
What's your point? Neither of those are the ONLY options. You can also throw a fucking javelin. You can do loads of shit, as long as it isn't "bows and bolts". Wind Wall is a hard counter against the most common ranged weapons. That's what it does.

And a 30% miss chance is better than, say, concealment. A bonus provided by literally sitting in a fucking bush. The point is that people make this spell out to be gamebreaking powerful, and it's countered by tossing a goddamn rock. That's what I call exagerating.

>>51464719
Oh, look, your party Wizard cast Fly on the Fighter. He's flying too, now. Don't you feel silly?

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>>51464150
>>51464448
At 8th level, a Fighter's experience with combatants gives them a certain measure of their kind, whether it be a soldier's understanding of their fellow recruits or a warrior's respect for another's strength. A Fighter adds their Base Attack bonus to all Charisma Skill checks (such as Intimidate and Diplomacy) and opposing Sense Motive and Slight of Hand checks against anyone with levels in a mundane martial or martial adept class.

Starting at 10th level, a Fighter may begin applying their Tools of the Trade discount to magically enchanted items at 1/2 it's usual value (again, maximum of the item's base crafting cost to the one who crafted it).

At 20th level a Fighter is always considered armed, and may treat any object as a weapon for the purpose of their combat feats.

>>51464718
Oh I made plenty of friends but I got fucking sick of playing with them. You see, I have been DMing for over 12 years and I have basically mastered the art. The reason I have never had trouble finding a group is that not only do I DM, but I do it well, in a way few others can. I have such an inherent grasp of the ebb and flow of narrative, of how to build encounters in a variety of systems, and empathy with the attention levels of my players, that I can run a good session with basically no prep, and still outclass DMs who spend hours prepping. I've gotten to the point where I am a significant force in my local RPG community. I know the right people, because when you have something to give, people are naturally attracted to you. Like a magnet. I can play in whatever campaign I want, run whatever system I want, and I am responsible for affecting at least thirty peoples' opinions on new RPG products. People come to me. I don't make friends, they make thesmelves for me. All because of my DMing prowess. If I felt like I could basically blacklist you and make it impossible for you to find a game within a 35 mile radius. I've done that to many of these "problem" players who refused to understand what RPGs are all about.

Think you can say the same?

>>51464815
>Don't you feel silly?
No, because he doens't have Fly as class skill, his armor gives him penalties and his Dex is shit, so he can fly, but he isn't going to

>>51464367
>Read
>>Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss
>Doesn't matter how much damage you're capable of dealing, the RAW states that arrows and bolts automatically miss.
Slings are a thing

>>51464815
>And a 30% miss chance is better than, say, concealment
Better for who? because concealmente is 20%

Also
>Rock
Nice 1d4+Str at best, no magic bonus no shit, I hope the wizard you're going to kill with it is a level -1 at least

>>51464812
> underage entitled rant.

I'm 28, my friend, and nothing about my "rant" is entitled. You see, I am the DM, I am the one who spent time and energy perfecting my craft. Of course ,a true DM understands he is never perfect, but goddamn it I am close. And what do these fucks come in and do? They insist on creating 9 different races to add to my setting to make their precious little character concepts "work" and when I ask why they wouldn't work as humans, they start to whinge and sputter and generally have no answer. Why? Because extra races don't need to exist. What does your fox person race add to the story? Fucking nothing, so it doesn't need to exist. What does you playing a thri-keen add to the story? Nothing, so it doesn't need to exist. See, as a DM, I am the provider. The players are the ones being given a gift. So, I am not entitled. They are, thinking to shit all over my settings with their shitty races. And now the fucking game has sponsored motherfucking Drow elves in the core book, all thanks to that faggot Bob Salvadore and Drizz't making drow elves chaotic good and the evil ones an aberration, completely destorying the entire point of the fucking race!!


>>51464743
Doesn't mean I shouldn't, either.

>>51464720
But magic items for an appropriately leveled character aren't an advantage. They're the norm. You might as well throw a hissyfit that the Fighter has a sword.

And it's bullshit to claim that stuff that never comes up in the actual game serves some purpose. These aren't suggestions of dealing with the problem. This is literally you saying "Fighter can never beat Wizard". It serves no purpose. Not in the least because you seem to be forgetting that this isn't a perfectly balanced vs. style arena game. It's a party based game where you, as a party, run through scenario's presented by the DM. So bitching that the Fighter can't beat the Wizard is a moot point right from the get go. They're both on the same team taking down a Giant, or whatever.

>>51464589
>No one is saying that wizards aren't the best
Then why even argue?
>If you cast blink round 1, the fighter has two attacks at level 10 so your odds of survival aren't great.
What if I cast mirror image?
>>51464649
The point I'm making is that if you give an magical advantage to the Fighter then you'd have to give a magical advantage to the Wizard as well.

Especially since the Wizard would have a much easier time at utilizing and maximizing those advantages.

>>51464836

So no, no friends.

>>51464906
The argument is more about the extent to which they are the best. The absurd bonus the fighter is given might be enough to level the playing field, at level 10 at least.

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>>51464903
You're amusing I give you that

>>51464815
>The point is that people make this spell out to be gamebreaking powerful, and it's countered by tossing a goddamn rock.
Countered implies that it actually does something substantial. At best you found an exploit but even that is giving you too much credit since you're still dealing with a much shittier range and a 30% miss chance that also happens to stack with concealment as well.

>>51464905

The point of comparing them is showing the difference in their ability to interact with the game.

Fighters can fight, but even in that they're eclipsed by magic users with a few trivial spell choices.

And when it comes to literally anything else, casters have more skills, spells that can provide solutions, better access to magic items... It's ridiculous.

And this sort of balance matters in co-op games. Cooperative gameplay is fun because you work together as a team and everyone contributes. A situation where the fighter is just a cheerleader for the team casters is boring as fuck and a sign of bad game design.

>>51464895
Look, mate, now you're just giving shitty arguments. You bitch that this thing is a counter to ranged damage, and when it's pointed out that you can counter it by literally picking up shit off the floor and throwing it, you pretend that's the ONLY thing you can do. You're devolving into this video gamey argument that anything suboptimal is simply not worth doing at all.

Just admit you were wrong.

>>51464905
>But magic items for an appropriately leveled character aren't an advantage. They're the norm

So, the wizard has appropriate magic items for his level too? Because that still looks bad for the fighter.

>>51464903
If you were just going to outlaw the races you don't like, why would it matter what edition you're playing and how many races it has? No, no, none of this adds up at all.

>>51463499
>comes to Mongolian Shadow Puppetry message board
>goes on autistic rant about Mongolian Shadow Puppetry

Can we get this anon an award for being a faggot?

>>51464906
>The point I'm making is that if you give an magical advantage to the Fighter then you'd have to give a magical advantage to the Wizard as well.

Again: Magic items for a Fighter isn't a magical advantage, it's to be expected. Your argument hinges on not giving a Fighter the stuff he should have at his level. This is just my problem with this entire fucking discussion. It's a game of Calvinball where you constantly make up excuses to set up situations that never happen in the game itself, and then claim the game is broken because of it.

It's clear as day that you guys both don't like the game and never play it.

>>51465031

Your lack of reading comprehension is astounding.

All the poster you're replying to means is 'If the fighter gets magic items, so does the wizard'.

>>51464986
>If you were just going to outlaw the races you don't like, why would it matter what edition you're playing and how many races it has?

Because these entitled fucks come in expecting to play one.

>>51464991
> came to traditional games board
> posted about traditional games

What's the issue here?

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>>51464903
Well you see, when someone types a lot of random bullshit really quickly like this, it means that a lot of what they're saying is just vacuous filler language that they haven't actually put any real thought into. Most of your posts remind me of the essays that I use to write back in high school and freshman year of college. Generally speaking, the only reason most people take those classes anyway is to demonstrate grammatical competence, rather than the ability to write something that anyone would want to fucking read. One time I had to write an essay about gender roles and my ironic experiences with them, for instance. No one would actually care about the Barbie flipflops that my little brother wanted so dearly when he was 8, nor would they care about my little sister's off-handed comments about wishing she had a dick. Thankfully, I was smart enough to only subject my poor professor to my essay writing.

>>51464958
>by literally picking up shit off the floor and throwing it
For starters -4 if you're on 3.P because no proficiency, second your range is fucking 10 ft, third 30% of failing and fourth the damage you deal is 1d4+Str which is fucking nothing. Sure, you have theoption, even if the odds tell your option is as good as staring at him funny.

>>51465051
>it means that a lot of what they're saying is just vacuous filler language that they haven't actually put any real thought into.

As opposed to your post, which is 100 percent vacuous filler language you haven't actually put any real thought into.

>>51464931
Not really, because at level 10 the wizard would not have access to level 5 spells, which allows for even crazier bullshit that makes it even less likely for the Fighter to win.
>>51465031
>Magic items for a Fighter isn't a magical advantage, it's to be expected.
Then the wizard have access to magic items is what's to be expected as well.

>>51464903
Then go write a book if you don't want people being able to put a little of themselves into the world you've so painstakingly have created.

DMing is not setting up a dollhouse and letting the players play only with the dolls you've pre-emptively selected.

>>51463696
>REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>51464958
Different guy but my first time dealing with that spell I did that, I picked the biggest rock I could and threw at him...missed, and so I did the next 3 times, the wizard killed me. Everybody asked me why I didn't run

>>51465075
>as opposed
That's literally what every fucking post from this guy has been. I was making a point, and I said so in the first sentence.
I knew that off-hand, by the by. It wasn't as "vacuous" as you think. It was intentionally crafted that way.

>>51464948
It's not a fucking exploit when it's explicitly intended according to the rules, numbnuts. Yeah, no shit the magical spell intended to protect from ranged attacks offers SOME protection from ranged attacks.

>>51465031
>the stuff he should have at his level.
Fuck off, level is an indicator of the prowess of a CHARACTER, not his fucking backpack.

>>51464903
>i am the dm i am god this is not a group activity i am your provider and am gifting you with my presence
lol

>>51464815
You know what counters a counter in mtg? surrendering, it has like split second, and is as effective as throwing a rock at a wizard.

>>51465045
Your stupidity is mindboggling. Of course we're assuming the Wizard has magical items. Like his fucking spellbook, for instance. You're arbitrarily deciding the Fighter doesn't get to use certain things so the Wizard can hold the advantage. And why? So you can continue bitching about a game you probably don't even fucking play. It's retarded.

>>51465100
>DMing is not setting up a dollhouse and letting the players play only with the dolls you've pre-emptively selected.

It is when the dolls are total shit.

> a little of themselves

Oh you mean vastly changing the entire world because now I have to fit in mongrelfolk and six other bullshit races into the world, due to their lack of roleplaying ability? Nah I think I'll just keep them kicked out of the group, since wanting to play a noncore race is a symptom of a fucking terrible roleplayer.

>>51465153
In 3rd edition the math asctually did work off the expectation that you would have certain magic items like weapons, armor, deflection rings, cloaks of resistance etc. If you were playing without that you were in for a bad time.

4e was actually pretty cool because the fighter was legit useful, mostly because they had not-magic at their disposal to actually do things other than "hit enemy with weapon, get hit and take damage, repeat."

4e had a host of other problems, though.

>>51465140
>It's not a fucking exploit when it's explicitly intended according to the rules, numbnuts.
Well you're right in that it's definitely not an exploit, I was just saying so to make you feel better.

In truth, it's on the same level as someone posting their homebrew that's designed to fuck mages over, only to find out that it unintentionally fucked over the martials as well. It's a good idea that only works on paper, not during an actual game.

>>51465062
>you pretend that's the ONLY thing you can do

Do you even read the posts you're responding to?

>>51465186

No? Once again, you're showing a complete lack of reading comprehension and no understanding of the point actually being made.

>>51465154
It's not what I said, fucker. I am the one creating content. The players are the ones ripping off animes and video games to make shitty characters that don't even fit into the setting. They don't even understand what real fantasy is supposed to be about. Keep whinging, though, and keep trolling Gamefinder threads. I'm sure one day you'll find a roll20 group that doesn't flake on you after the first session.

>>51465153
What is "Wealth by Level?"

>>51465198
What problems? I always hear people talk about it like it's perfect (unless they're someone who has obviously never actually played it).

>>51465119
Ideally you just wait him out so he has wasted a spell. But the point is that it doesn't actually make him invulnerable to ranged attacks.

>>51465220
a guideline

>>51465210
>what real fantasy is supposed to be about
>real
>fantasy
huehuehue

>>51465050
Then say no you fucking autist

>>51465153
Then the Fighter always wins, because the Wizard needs his spellbook.

>>51465232
lol no

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>>51465232

>>51464173
This is a meme

>>51465221
it was laser focused on combat and played more like a tabletop game. non-combat options were very limited, because 95% of all the powers in the books were about doing something to an enemy.

it's a great combat game, it's just weak in terms of adding a layer to the roleplaying and noncombat side of things like other editions with their hosts of utility powers.

>>51465221

As someone who likes 4e, I can think of a few.

There's the oft mentioned HP bloat issue, which was fixed but still hangs over the system like a cloud.

More annoyingly are the tax feats, Expertise and Improved Defences, which kinda need to be given for free otherwise the system math falls apart.

There are a few dud classes as well which don't really work, and the power selection available is limited by the competence of the designers, with some being close to a must take and others being really bad, which does limit character variety.

Onto more personal preference things, the lack of a dedicated power slot/selection for out of combat powers really sucks. 4e does actually have quite a few cool out of combat utility powers, but they're very rarely taken because they compete for space with combat utilities.

Magic items are often kinda dull. They're necessary for their numerical bonus (unless you're using inherent bonuses), but their actual effects are often quite dull and minor, you need to really seek out the cool items that are useful for you. This gets better as you get higher level, but since most games never get past Paragon it does get annoying.

There are other dumb restrictions with character building too. Ideal race/class combinations, race locked support for stuff, a lot of things which makes playing certain concepts in the system harder.

>>51465242
Conversely, the Fighter needs his weapons and armor.

>>51465209
Everyone assumes the characters have magic items appropriate to their level until faggots like you arbitrarily say one of them doesn't. So what do you want to do? Go through the entire fucking magic items list to figure out all the counters a Wizard could use to all the possible offensive items a Fighter could use?

Or are you just going to accept the fact that the Fighter could have equipment that can help him defeat a Wizard?

>>51461933
Limb damage

Seriously, visceral combat that allows you as a melee fighter to more easily target limbs or vital spots for quick murder; no more whittling down HP and other dumb nonsense.

>>51461933
Play a system where they are actually better at fighting than other clasees, because why the fuck should everyone else be able to match the fighter in combat on top of the other cool shit they can do? This is among some of the reasons why people still play OSR clones. Not everything is about combat and when it is it's the fighter they rely on to keep them alive.

>>51465220
Fucking retarded.

>>51465290
Check out this fucking casual.

>>51465295
OK, let's just put the Wizard and Fighter naked in a room together, and see who wins. Clearly the victor will be objectively the most powerful class.

>>51465302

>Or are you just going to accept the fact that the Fighter could have equipment that can help him defeat a Wizard?

Only if we accept that it goes both ways. At which point it becomes a matter of both 'sides' going through the spell list, or we disregard it and assume that whatever advantages it offers cancel each other out to make the discussion a lot more simple.

>>51465324
The wizard, because even without a spell book he can still cast the spells he had prepared the last time he read the book.

>>51465324
What's funny is that the wizard still has a very small chance of winning in that situation.

>>51465302
The Fighter can theorhetically have equipment to help him defeat a Wizard, it's just that the Wizard can also have equipment to help him defeat a Fighter.

And in case you haven't realized, it's much easier to deal with a Fighter than it is a mage.

>>51465241
Oh I do, and they whinge about it because they feel entitled, and the book lends credence to their argument because it makes me the bad guy instead of them.

Fuck Wizards of the Coast, and fuck 5e. Anyone who thought you could play a LITERAL DEMONSPAWN and get away with walking around town, is a fucking retard moron who plays too much World of Warcrap. If it were up to me, everyone who played World of Warcrap would be dead. I wonder how many children have died neglected because of fat-ass nerd couples constantly playing WoW for 48 hours straight. But if they are the children of a WoW player they are probably better off dead anyway. Honestly, if anyone plays Skyrim or Dark Souls and got into RPGs because of it, they need to get the fuck out of this hobby. They do not belong here. They should be playing Dark Souls or whatever until their fucking hearts explode, not coming to D&D groups having read the latest /r/D&D story and hoping they get a natural 20 so they can do literally anything they want, so they can laugh and post about it on instagram and tumblr and snapchat and whatever else dumb shit they use. I had a girl literally snapchat at a D&D session I ran and I told her to get the fuck out. Not only had she violated my no phones rule but it became clear that she, like most women, was only in the RPG session for the attention she thought she'd receive by how "quirky" and "nerdy" it would make her seem. This is what RPGs are now. This is our world. And both D&D 4e and 5e were build and "designed" (I use the term very loosely) to pander to these kind of parisitic fucks. They don't create, or add anything. They have no imagination outside of what Skyrim and Dark Souls have put in front of their fat lazy sausage fingers. They constantly try to draw parallels between D&D and their latest anime. No, fuck off, this has nothign to do with your anime, your anime character does not exist, because this is D&D, not fucking anime.

>>51461933
Remove the fighter and replace him with a clearer theme. There's no need for a guy who fights in a system that has 10 other guys who fight but like this

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>>51465232
This. The game's base ruleset presume WBL but like with any other variant rule, it can be ignored or applied to fit the intended scenario.

>>51465324
Wizard.

He'd still have access to any spells that he already prepared that he didn't use yet while the Fighter would have to deal with having no equipment to help him bolster his shitty saves.

ONLY PREPARING A NEW SPELL LIST REQUIRES A SPELLBOOK
Fucking retards, remove the book and the wizard still can cast spells every day ever, it's only that his known spells become those spells he prepared the last time he had a book

>>51465317
I know, I don't know why you implied that equipment isn't a character's prowess either.

>>51465368
You're like a text version of this guy I play Dota with. Hopefully your catharsis has all of the health benefits that he claims it has.

>>51465346
Of course it goes both fucking ways, but the logic you're attaching to that is retarded. It doesn't automatically cancel each other out, it depends on what each of them has. What you are assuming is that both are kitted out perfectly to take each other on, but that's never actually going to happen in the game itself.

I mean, you're already assuming that the Wizard has unlimited spells. You're approaching this entire question from the perspective that the Wizard can blow all his spells on this once encounter, and that itself ignores the entire nature of the game. In reality, the Wizard has to ration his spells. The moment the Wizard runs out, he can be pummeled into submission by any other class, probably including Commoner.

>>51465419
That... isn't how wizards work.

That's how Sorcerer's work.

>>51465398
It's not a variant rule, the system needs it to work. Monster difficulty and abilities assume that characters will have certain items by the time they are encountered. A CR appropriate encounter with poor characters is a lot harder than it otherwise should be.

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>>51465190
>wanting to play a noncore race is a symptom of a fucking terrible roleplayer

Wow. Just kill all the fun. Put the fun in camps, why don't you?

It's a game, angryfriend. People play games to forget about their everyday lives for a bit and play pretend.

This is from a draw your party thread from a while ago. It's the party from the campaign we've been playing that has been around the longest. It's the most fun campaign we've had despite how serious it might've turned, even with stuff as colorful such as a Poisondusk Lizardfolk Ninja.

>>51465398
Except that the game assumes that the party is loaded up with the appropriate equipment to deal with shit that's past CR5 and above.

You can't just run up to a CR10 monster naked and unarmed and expect to come out of it unscathed. Especially when there are monsters that can cast spells innately like liches or dragons.

>>51465050
>complaining about chinese basket weaving
>on a chinese basket weaving website

>>51465445
The difficulty may therefore be raised by denying WBL's full value. That is not a problem from the development side of a campaign and simply raises the stakes from the player perspective in that an otherwise easier encounter is more challenging.

>>51465450
You are very right. You are also not disproving that denying wealth is a valid way to increase the difficulty of a campaign.

>>51465324
A Wizard who's picking from the better options will win that most of the time. Turns out that it really fucking sucks when the other guy unerringly interrupts your attack action for 3 to 5 rounds in a row with zero stat boosts or equipment, then has reserve feats to do damage if he doesn't want to expend spells.

>>51465434

Are you just being purposefully obtuse at this point? Or are you really just that dense that you can't see the point half this thread is trying to make?

It's not about the direct comparisons or the versus examples. Those are just specific bits of evidence to support a more general claim, and the fact you need to fight so hard to gain ground even when you give fighters a massive theoretical advantage makes the general trend extremely clear.

>>51465434
Except that there are spells like Rope Trick, Mage's Magnificent Mansion, Tiny Hut, etc. that are spells that give mages a means to rest up without having to worry about someone coming into his home to beat the shit outta him while he's resting.

Even if the Fighter somehow had the means to dispel them, he'd still have to know that the spell was cast and have a means of detecting the portal even though it's invisible and likely out of his way.

Or he could just pop a spell like dimension door, misty step, fly, or teleport to get away before the Fighter can even get within range.

>>51465440
It's in 5e as default
It's in 3.PF if you pick the 1st level feat spell mastery (Int bonus spells can be prepared without spellbook)

I assumed 5e because it's the current system and is what people were mentioning above

>>51465479
This board is for discussion of RPGs. I'm discussing an RPG. What's your problem?

>>51465500
You're only screwing non-casters even more by doing that.

>>51465449
But anon, fun is just a buzzword

>>51463073
>creatures
Let's see:
>Nemean Lion
Divine being, born of a nymph and a gigante
Cousin to the gods thenselves. Big enough that one of his claws was made into a sword
His skin was "invencible" and his claws could cut anything. He could shrung off being hit by Herakles's club (who was te poster boy for super strength, but we wil get there in no time)
It could shapeshift, talk, and had humanlike inteligence
>Learnean Hydra
A giant multi-headed sake. Another divine being, the Lion's brother. Cutting a head would make others grow on it's place. It's blood could kill any mortal, and was so painful that the immortals would wish to die instead (it was responsible to the dead of Chiron, who was kin to the gods of Olympus). One of it's heads was a full-out deity, and couldn't be slain by a weapon forged by mortal hands (Herakles uses a sword handed to him by Hermes, but we will et there later)
>Ceryneian Hind
A nymph blesses by Artemis. She was faster than any arrow or the very the wind. The gods thenselves couldn't catch her. She could run for an entire year without tiring. Anyone who dared hurt the Hind would face Artemis wrath
>Erymanthian Boar
Giant semi-divine boar. Could create earthquakes while stompimg. Destroyed farms and stuff
>Stymphalian Birds
Giant metal birds sacred to the god of war. Feathers were sharper than swords
>Cretan Bull
Divine bull of Poseidon. Could flatten walls, palaces and houses
>Geryon
Semi-divine giant with multiple arms and heads
>Orthus
Brother of Cerberus. A giant two headed wolf
>Antaeus
Giant son of Gaia, kin to the gods of Olympus. Could draw strength from his mother, and couldn't be slain while touching the ground
>Ladon
Another divine being, kin to the Lion, the Hydra, Orthus and Cerberus. A hundred headed dragon. Guarded the golden apples, could scare away even lesser deities and titans
>Cerberus
Divine three headed dog. Guarded the Underworld

(1/7)

>>51465500
Denying WBL only gives the mages even more of an advantage since they don't necessarily need equipment to be powerful. The same cannot be said for martial characters who need weapons, armors, and shit that improves their saves in order to stay relevant.

>>51465545
On an anime image board.

Or are you really such a newfag?

>>51465557
Let's see the labours thenselves (keep in mind that Herakles didn't accomplish only the labours, but he made a lot of stuff in betweeen), shall we?

>1st labour
Slaying the Lion
Herakles fins the place where the lion lives, he then scouts the region trying to find it's lair. He discovers that the Lion's cave has two entries. He collapses on with a blow of his club (could your 10th level fighter do that?) and enter thru the other. He finds the lion, shapeshifted into a woman. He percieves it's a bait and the lion takes on it's true form an attacks. They fight, herakles can't hurt it so he decides to chock the lion to death(how good is a fighter at wrestling something a few size categories above him? Not very). Makes a sword out of it's claws and uses the sword to skin the lion.

>2nd labour
Slaying the Hydra
Hermes gives him a magic sword and a hint that one of the Hydra's head was fully divine. Herakles calls his apprentice and gives him a torch to burn the Hydra's stumps. Cuts the Hydra's mortal heads without getting hit by it's blood. Fights and then kills the last head. The body is still alive so he puts a small mountain over it (He's good with swords)

(2/7)

>>51465519
A "massive theoretical advantage" being "following the rules of the fucking game". And I'm the one being obtuse? Fuck you, buddy. You're the one shooting down the stated rules of the game because they don't support your pet theory.

I mean, this all started with you saying "the wizard casts a spell and has magically won the fight". Then someone points out that the fighter could use a magic items to counter that spell. And then you say the Wizard will use another magic items to counter the Fighter's magic item. And he also apparently gets a free turn to do so. Which is why your argument is pants-on-head retarded.

>>51465574
>3rd labour
Capturing the Hind
Talks with a priestness of Artemis to learn about the Hydra (your fighter with cha and int penalities and no social skills is going to have a hard time gathering info. Remember Herakles has both Brains and Brawl into godly levels). He finds the hind, and runs after an entire year (remember also that the Hind was faster than wind or arrows, to keep up with that Herakles had to be of comparable speed). Non stop (your fighter flat out can't do that). When the hind thinks he was left behind, it stops to drink water. Herakles catches up, sneaks on it (how good is your fighter at sneaking?) and makes a precise shot between it's leg articulations, such that no blood is spiled. Artemis shows up very angry, Herakles begs and convinces her to not smite him (again, fighters aren't good at socializing). She agrees on the condition he frees the Hind without harm

>4th labour
Bringing the Boar alive.
Herakles goes after the centaurs to discover where the Boar dwells (social skills really aren't the fighter's forte). The other centaurs get angry and he slays the entire tribe single handed. Chiron, who was kin to the gods, is fatally wounded by one of Herakles arrows and begs the gods to make him mortal out of sheer pain (both feats are archery. But wait, I though your archer was focused on grappling... ?).
Herakles finds the Boar (look the other post to see how strong it was) and wrestles with it. He brings it back alive.

(3/7)

>>51465500
It's 'valid' in the sense that that's technically what it does, but I don't really consider something that unfairly punishes the obviously weaker set of classes in both horizontal and vertical strength because they're explicitly reliant on what you can get from WBL while the others are relatively unscathed because they only rely on WBL to broaden their capabilities, not heighten them.

>>51465588
>5th labour
Cleaning the Stables.
Meets with King Augeas (socialize). Re-routs two rivers by hand in a single day (can a fighter do that? kek).

>6th labour
Defeating the Stymphalian Birds.
The Birds lived on a swamp unable to support human weight, and too deep to just go thru.
Herakles uses a magic rattle given to him by Athena to scare them away (but your fighter isn't buddies with the goddess of strategy, is he?)

(4/7)

>>51463741
OR

ARE THE CASTERS FIGHTERS?

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On one hand, fighters don't need to be fixed, they do what they are supposed to do, fight things. The actual problem is that fighters are thrown into a system that's warped around poorly designed magic systems. In the pic related class system, nothing would be wrong with fighters at all because the game around them would be fitted to challenge them. Granted, this is a severe exaggeration, but it's only a proof of concept. If you admit that 3.5 does a terrible job of writing spells that are appropriate for their spell level, the real problem becomes clear.

On the other hand, the notion that giving fighters mechanical choices makes them similar to casters is completely asinine. The only reason gamers think it's normal that fighters don't get a mechanical description of their abilities except for their BAB is rooted in a shitty tradition and nothing else.

>>51465586

No, you blithering idiot, the whole 'The fighter gets plus infinite to attack and damage' thing supposed earlier in the thread.

The fact that, even with that, things aren't entirely one sided in the Fighters favour is pretty damning of the issue as a whole.

>>51465602
>9th labour
Steaing Hypolita's belt.
While traveling to Themiscyra he stops at Lycus, as a gift for the King's hospitality Herakles beats and conquers the rival kingdom of Bebryces.
He goes as himself and convinces Hypolita to give the belt to him. Hera then appears to the other amazons and convinces them to fight Herakles. He kills an entire army of amazons.

>10th labour
Stealing Gerion's cattle.
Trying to find Gerion's land he stops at Troy. He lays siegle, conquers and sacks the city on his lonesome (or with a handful of studends, depending on which version of the legend you follow). All in a few weeks, while all the armies of Greece took 10 years to conquer Troy.
Herakles is trying to find Geryon's land and ends up lost in a desert (he's looking for the sea). He gets angry because of the geat and fires an arrow at the sun. Lo and behold, Helios, the sun god appears holding his arrow (the arrow actually reached the sun!) and praises Herakles for his courage at trying to strike the sun. Helios then gives him a giant flying cup/charriot/boat to take him anywhere he wants to go. He then fights with Orthos and kill it with a blow from his club. He finds Three-Headed Geryon and kill him with arrows.
He takes the cattle, but Hera scares it away. Herakles then spends an entire year tracking it across the globe (can your fighter track very well?).
Hera then turns a river into a sea so Herakles couldn't pass it with the cattle. Herakles answes by layering the river-turned-sea floor with enough rocks to turn it shallow.

(6/7)

>>51465605
Even if you completely stripped out all the magic Fighters would still be pretty terrible.

>>51465586
So basically, a Fighter can only defeat a wizard if he gets a shitload of magic items, infinite attack/damage, and is fighting a wizard who has shitty INT and is several levels lower than him?

Well shit man, I could kick the shit outta Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson if I went back in time and beat him up when he was in 2nd grade, clearly that shows that I'm superior to him even though I'm a fat nerd on the internet.

>>51465628
>11th labour
Stealing a golden apple
Herakles takes a boat through the mediterran and ends at Egypt. There they try to sacrifice him to the gods, he break the chains he as bound and slay everyone he can catch. Steals a boat to continue his travel. There's a landmass on the way, so he strikes the earth with his sword and separates Africa from Europe, creating the Gibraltar Strait (yout level 10 fighter definitively can't do that) so he can continue.
On his way he finds Antaeus (see other post). They fight, Herakles out-wrestles him and crushes him until he dies.
He finds the garden of the Herispedes and there he finds Atlas. He convinces Atlas to steal an apple to him while he holds the sky on Atlas' place (can your fighter hold the sky? Of course not).
Atlas comes back with a few apples, and Herakles tricks him into holding the sky again.

>12th labour
Stealing Cerberus.
He fins Orpheus and learn from him how to enter the Underworld.
There he talks with Hades, his uncle, and askes if he can take Cerberus for a walk.
Hades agrees, as long as Herakles subdues Cerberus with his bare hands and Cerberus isn't harmed.

Keep in mind that all those Labours were just the start of Herakles adventures.
Later on he traveed with the Argonauts, helped the gods kill the gigantes, rescued Prometheus, disguised himself as a woman and lived as a woman for an entire year without anyone noticing, made war with several kingdoms, out-wrestled a god, etc.

(7/7)

>>51461933
Besides playing 5e, not playing D&D, etc. I'd say make armor more valuable and scale weapons.
Make weapons wielded by martial classes do more damage as they level up completely outside of magic, buffs, or plussing. Fighters will never be able to dish out damage as much as casters at high level (unless you break the game with high level feats and crap), but the better martial damage will help out.
More importantly, make armor and shields better. Shields should give more AC than they do. Giving DR to all armor helps a lot. The fighter is, as you pointed out, supposed to be a meatshield. If plate armor gave 4DR (magical reinforcement would aid this by +1 per enhancement level) it would be so much better for fighter suitability.
Make it impossible for casters to use feats to get armor or martial weapons. Armor should only be for martial classes.
Maybe allow people to roll intimidate to convince enemies that they are a more pressing threat? The DM should have most intelligent enemies blitz the wizard.

>>51465637
Terrible compared to what?

>>51465660
Barbarians.

>>51465660
Barbarians, Rogues, even nonmagical Rangers.

>>51463073
Can a non-cheesed level 10 fighter one up this?
>>51465557
>>51465574
>>51465588
>>51465602
>>51465628
>>51465644

>>51465368
fuck me dude if that's what you've got to say from six words i could have you writing a shitty novel by wednesday.

>>51465719
I had a shifter barbarian/warshape/weretouched master/rageclaw with 52 Str without magic items at 13th level, but that was the strongets you could get, and that still doesn't compete with Herakles

>>51465693
>>51465696

In that case, isn't this resulting problem just a matter of balancing and tuning? There is a huge difference between a system where the balance levers are out of position and a system where the balance levers do not work at all.

>>51465659
>Fighters will never be able to dish out damage as much as casters at high level
Yes, yes they can, Fighters do plenty of damage if you are not a shitter. The problem is not spellcaster damage, which is relatively tame, it's throwing out herpa derpa save or loses with massive DCs that fuck encounters in the ass, or even worse, throwing out shit like Solid Fog that locks down enemies with literally nothing but Freedom of Movement applicable to defending against it.

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This picture should be posted in every D&D thread just to remind people

>>51465756
It's not a mathematical problem, it's a fundamental problem with the fact that the Fighter's class ability is to get more feats in a system where you run into diminishing returns or an outright wall after a certain point of buffing something up when the game also rewards specialization.

>>51465546
I'm also the one who suggested giving the Fighter free discounts. Fancy that.

>>51465564
At higher levels yes. Below 6th at least it means your 'caster folks are more concerned about their spell slots for a few more levels because wands and scrolls will be scarce unless they want to be behind the others in levels for crafting them.

Besides, denying WBL hurts casters Less but it does still make things more difficult Regardless of classes or party composition. If your party's managed some means of balance among themselves it's a generalized campaign feature, not something meant to harm half and help the other half.

>>51465817
>unless they want to be behind the others in levels for crafting them.
That's not how XP works. You gain more XP when you're behind a level, which leads to the retarded feedback loop where you craft so you get more XP so you can craft more, or even worse, you end up ahead of the rest of the party because you crafted just enough to put you behind for an encounter.

>>51465817
>I'm also the one who suggested giving the Fighter free discounts. Fancy that.

Fantastic. That just gives me further proof when I say that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Fancy that.

I've got to agree with those saying the problem is overblown. Balancing fighters/wizards can be done fairly well provided you actually take practical things into account.

-Crafting, yeah a long rest to craft shit isn't enough. You need access to proper facilities, so you've either got your owned fully stocked wizards tower or you'll need to be in a guild and have sufficient standing to access their facilities. (Eager beavers who carry around all they need can expect their fragile and expensive equipment to get easily broken/lost in the middle of a dungeon)

-Enforce an economy, wizards can have some pretty funky material components for spells. Sure you can buy some of them, but none of this arcane focus or components pouch cop-outs, some components might not be available in your current region. You want a functional component pouch? Prepare to assemble it yourself.

-Component complications. Fireballs? Only a total sperg is actually going to want to cast them given they'll end up smelling like shit and rotten eggs with the components involved. Grease? Literal butter fingers. Bigby's hand? Snakesin gloves are easy enough, a fragile eggshell on the other hand...

-Heck a lot of these one action spells aren't even practical to cast in combat unless you get the drop on your enemy or have really solid line keeping you out of danger. You'll either need to sort through your pouch to find the right materials. Or you can keep them readily available at all times meaning a decently experienced enemy will be able to guess what kind of spells the wizard is capable of casting going by things like the feather tied to a tiny fan hanging off his belt.

It's pretty easy to make a wizard's life difficult if he is overly reliant on cheesing material component spells.

>>51465878
>-Enforce an economy,
You're talking about something that's not the game, you can fuck right off.

>>51465878
>I don't know how to play, but if you want my opinion....
Better men than you have tried (and failed) to balance D&D. Nothing you've posted is new, it's just bullshit that would've been laughed at by anyone who was really big into homebrews.

>>51465878
>It's pretty easy to make a class a total pain in the ass to play to the point where people give up out of pure frustration via pulling shit out of my ass and smearing it on your face!
>That means its balanced!

>>51465878
>Eschew materials
I always pick that and improve initiative as a wizard

>>51465808
The obvious solution is to associate fighter bonus feats with levels so that when the fighter hits level N, he picks a level N feat that's appropriately rewarding.

>>51465878
In theory, you would think this sort of shit keeps wizards in check. In practice, It just introduces a bunch of passive-aggressive burdens on the entire party.

Frankly, making the party spend an hour of IRL time doing quests that aren't fun or interesting in order to obtain an eye of newt doesn't solve the problem of the broken things that can be done with an eye of newt. You have the same brokenness, but you've made the actual game experience shittier on top of that.

>>51466078
I personally think that's the most important thing.

You can't balance a class by making it an OOC annoyance. It just sucks, and ruins the fun for everyone at the table.

>>51464957
>Fighter is just a cheerleader
Can't be salvaged. You can't fix fighter without giving them magic or magic equivalent reality bending abilities, and fighter players don't want that, but do want to bitch about everything else in the game.

Fighter players don't like d&d.

And bitchy elitist no whitespace rant anon just misses ad&d and hates everyone else of his own generation.

>>51465573
>On an anime image board.
Nope.

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>>51461933
First, make them balanced in combat. Second, make them balanced outside of combat.

1) Split combat roles between martials and casters. For example, martial characters specialize in one or more of the following: high single-target damage, small area of effect damage, intercepting or blocking enemy attacks, penetrating damage resistance, countering or evading attacks, interacting with cover (yours or enemies'), removing or resisting debuffs from self and applying buffs to self, limited healing via morale boosts, aiding allies in mundane ways (at most Lazylord 4E).

Casters specialize in one or more of the following: moderate area of effect damage in a larger radius or with better 'aiming', access elemental damage types and thus exploit vulnerabilities, blocking or dispel supernatural effects, applying debuffs and crowd control to enemies, applying buffs to allies (but perhaps with concentration restrictions unlike martials), healing magic, and niche utility and possibly 'silver bullet' effects that require preparation.

2) Don't let magic invalidate mundane skills. This means you must first remove or weaken spells that overlap with skills. A sneaky thief is always preferable to an invisible wizard with a Detect Traps and/or Knock spell. If foraging for food matters, don't let Create Food and Water exist, have them rely on a ranger or barbarian with Survival. Mind-control magic either doesn't help much in social situations or it has really bad consequences or implications if abused that way.

You also have to let mundane skills scale in a way that keeps in line with magic - not necessarily as powerful but definitely in the same ballpark. At the point where casters can burn houses down and fly, martials should be able to rip huge iron gates from their hinges and leap twenty feet into the air. As casters access more powerful and versatile spells, martials should start being able to apply their skills in comparably powerful and versatile ways.

>>51465050
>Players come to games wanting to play stuff I disallow!

So, say no? I allow different selections of races basically every campaign. It's not difficult.

If I'm running a game in ancient Arcorar, all races will be elf variants. If we're not playing Eberron, warforged won't be a thing. In a nine hells campaign, the races will be custom devil writeups.

And sometimes I don't care and nearly anything goes.

>>51462015
>waaaaaaah

People are still playing original D&D. They're going to be playing 3.5 for at least another few decades, regardless of how much it upsets you.

>>51465153
Depends on the edition.

In 3e and 4e, wbl is a rule, not a suggestion. If you ignore it you're weakening all classes, and you're not weakening them equally. The weakest classes, like fighter, rely on them the most.

>>51466337
Then stop complaining about fighter sucking, that's what you chose by playing 3.PF

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>>51466203
Oh, here's a third balancing factor I recommend:

3) Make sure your system has resources for both martials and casters, and try to keep them on the same 'recharge' time frame. Now I'm not saying that martials and casters should function the same - I'm not advocating D&D 4E here. I'm recommending that if your game happens to have a Mana system for casters, maybe consider giving a Stamina bar to martials. You can set things up so that, in the same way a caster has to spend Mana for a problem-solving spell, a martial might have to spend Stamina to apply their skill in a particularly impressive and impactful manner. Just because you're strong enough to rip an iron gate off its hinges doesn't mean you can do that all day! Spending Stamina might let the martial roll their skill check on a different table where their result gives a much higher effect if successful, or it might give them a bonus or advantage or whatever seems appropriate.

I say to keep them on the same recharge time frame mainly because it would make sense for someone's spell-power and someone's reserves of strength and stamina to replenish just around the same time. It also means these recoveries are a little more symmetrical, so you don't have instances where the martial is good to go in an hour but the caster's gonna need another week (I'm looking at you Anima: Beyond Fantasy). You could totally (for example) have Stamina return after a Short Rest and Mana after a Long Rest (in 5E terms), whatever you feel works for your game. I just like everyone 'topping off' at the same point so nobody feels like they're useless while everyone else is at full power again. Then again I advocate short-rest spells for all casters and cantrips to be flat-out removed from the game so maybe I'm just a weirdo.

>>51465190
>"playing a noncore race is a symptom of a terrible roleplayer"
This position is retarded. Play to the setting and themes of the campaign yes, but whether a race is "core" or not is completely fucking irrelevant.

>>51466558
>but whether a race is "core" or not is completely fucking irrelevant.

It is when you are fucking up the DM's setting by bringing in autisic skyrim races. Kill yourself.

>>51466382
Magic Items as (potentially) Optional is one of maybe three things I actually liked about 5E, along with Advantage and Attributes As Saving Throws. Of course they screwed it up by including tons of monsters with physical resistance versus non-magical items, making casters godlike necessities without magic gear, but it was the thought that counted. Advantage and Disadvantage should also have been allowed to stack (so 3 Adv. means roll 4d20 take highest) since you get diminishing returns anyway.

I also think that characters should have Disadvantage to attack rolls and saving throws against creatures 4+ CR higher than their level, and that characters should have Advantage to attack rolls and saving throws against creatures 4+ CR below their level. That would demonstrate how a level 6 adventurer is easily skilled enough to dance rings around mere goblins, whereas an Efreeti is just so much more experienced that the PCs' attacks are easily parried and their defences breached in mere moments. Since Adv/Dis is only a +/-3.5 it's not a huge change, and it doesn't violate bounded accuracy at all, but it would be a clearer way of showing whether something is out of their league or no longer a dire threat.

>>51466654
I also like that magic items are not a requirement for the math to work out in 5e. It's one of the few things I think it does better.

>>51466654
The problem there is that *HP*, and to a very, very minor degree AC, is what the game progresses as CR climbs. What good would it do to be shitty at hitting something you were already having a rough time hitting and an even rougher time landing appreciable damage on it?

>>51466570
>"bringing in autistic skyrim races"
>"ruining the dm's setting"
The dm should have given you a list of what races are allowed, with his campaign premise, before you started building characters.

You're of course free to ask for something else, and the DM may oblige you. But he's only going to do so if he thinks the race you want to play is a good fit in the campaign.

If you tell the players "anything goes" of course they're going to try out all the weird shit they've wanted to try and never had the opportunity to do so. What, are you retarded?

Grow a spine. Give them a campaign theme, and if necessary with your group or campaign, a whitelist of allowed races/classes.

It's not difficult.

>>51466773
If I say "this is a Menzoberranzan house intrigue campaign" I might allow a drider. Or for one player to play another character's human slave. Or a draegloth. Maybe even a drow with a template, assuming the power between characters is comparable. But I'm not going to allow an "all core races" party that has no drow at all. That is retarded.

Ergo "core races" doesn't matter. "races that fit the campaign" however, does.

>>51466203
>2) Don't let magic invalidate mundane skills. This means you must first remove or weaken spells that overlap with skills. A sneaky thief is always preferable to an invisible wizard with a Detect Traps and/or Knock spell. If foraging for food matters, don't let Create Food and Water exist, have them rely on a ranger or barbarian with Survival. Mind-control magic either doesn't help much in social situations or it has really bad consequences or implications if abused that way.
>You also have to let mundane skills scale in a way that keeps in line with magic - not necessarily as powerful but definitely in the same ballpark. At the point where casters can burn houses down and fly, martials should be able to rip huge iron gates from their hinges and leap twenty feet into the air. As casters access more powerful and versatile spells, martials should start being able to apply their skills in comparably powerful and versatile ways.
Back when I still had a group, the first was pretty easy. But there are martial character players who resist things like my house rule allowing martial characters to run through the air if they succeed a DC 40 climb check and use at least a charge (with valid target) or a double move.

Carving martial classes down to basically "fighter" (frontline combatant) and "rogue" (precision damage) with build kits to let you make your frontline combatant into a fighter, Barbarian, or Paladin, or your precision damage dealer into a rogue, ranger, or monk, was something I did in lieu of trying to fix six classes, I'll admit.

I should see if I've still got paper copies, I know my digital copy of these house rules was lost probably 6 years ago now...

>>51466850
And in a "wizards college" campaign, I'm going to expect a party of mostly wizards.

In a "for the xenophobic human empire" campaign, I'm only going to allow races that can pass for human.

Note how "core races" isn't the answer to any of these.

>>51466937
Magic invalidating skills is fine if part of your setting premise is "everyone has magic, just not necessarily the same kind"

>>51466704
My players love getting magic gear, but I don't want them to get overpowered or mess with the math, so I shamelessly stole Trinkets from Darkest Dungeon. These are minor magic items whose benefits are either passives with a roughly equal drawback, or they're active ones with a cost associated with them. Characters can have up to three at a time, they attune like other magic items except you have to attune the consumables in advance as well, not just the passive trinkets. For example:

Belt of Brute Force: You have a +1 bonus to Strength-based ability checks and to damage with melee weapons, but you have a -1 penalty to Dexterity-based ability checks and to your Armour Class.

Potion of Borrowed Time: You can drink this potion as a move action to heal as if you'd spend two Hit Dice. You then lose three Hit Dice. If you have less than three Hit Dice remaining, you must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution Saving Throw for each Hit Dice you lacked or you suffer an Exhaustion level.

>>51466733
Well, the good news with 5E is that AC only goes up by 2 or so every 4 CR so if PCs are hitting (or forcing failed saves) about 65% of the time, they're still hitting 36% of the time now. That makes such monsters not quite twice as tough, which means you can either (1) throw half as many of them at the party safely or (2) subtly encourage PCs to not pick fights with things out of their league. It's a 'soft' way of preventing hordes of NPCs from taking down stronger monsters, and makes PCs a little more necessary for the safety of the world. I don't know if that's the feeling you want in your game, a kind of Noble Dark mechanical feel, but that's what I like so I'll recommend it easily.

>>51466937
I'd love to see your campaign notes! Type up that shit and make a PDF, I so enjoy reading about other people's homebrew. You learn the coolest tricks by hearing how other GMs tackled their own campaign obstacles.

>>51463751

>anime picture

Disregarded

>>51467136
You're not missing out on much. Crunchy gurps-style chargen with gameplay thats flat and boring.

>>51463895

Thing is I don't *want* fighters to have all the animu, superhero, or magic-y bullshit. Fighters should be the people who don't rely on over the top powers, silly overly-elaborate gimmicks, or magic. They're the people who just rely on their natural skills at fighting on the front line and pull through because they're that good.

>>51467480

Then low fantasy systems are the place for you.

If martial characters are entirely mundane, then casters have to be weak and extremely limited.

Meanwhile, if casters are powerful and flexible, martial characters have to go beyond what we'd consider realistic human limits for the game to make any sense.

Alternatively, just go the 'Martial characters are not player characters' route that some games focused exclusively on spellcasters take.

Book of Weaboo Fightan Magic had the right idea.
Give fighters variety in their attacks, some tricks to have up their sleeves.

>>51464310

>mentions how great the trap is
>doesn't provide example

Dude you need to work on your shitposting.

>>51467480
Then you cant be surprised that they don't keep up with out of combat utility alongside the people who fly and teleport and conjure flights of stairs and rafts and walls.

Or that they get hosed when the *one* thing they're allowed to do (hit stuff) won't solve the problem.

>>51467559
Agreed.

And for a low magic d20 system (since he likes d&d fighters), his best bet is d20 conan.

>>51467480
That's a totally fair thing to want in a game. If you want to restrict warriors to reasonable mundane levels of skill, that is nothing super-heroic that might defy physics or sense, then I recommend you keep the party at a low level. I further recommend that you restrict or ban many of the more powerful spells such as Speak with Dead, Fly, Polymorph, Teleport, Invisibility, Charm/Dominate, and so forth. If warriors are bound within what is reasonable and fair for skilled mortals, casters should also be bound to useful but not overly powerful magic.

You can achieve this by running a 5E game where the maximum level is 6 (or by playing E6). Instead of gaining levels after 6th level, characters might (very slowly) earn feats and/or ASI, or perhaps higher-level class features. For example, a Fighter (Battlemaster) who earns enough XP might gain a fifth Superiority Die, and then later upgrade their dice to d10s. A Sorcerer who earns enough XP could learn a single 4th level spell and gain a single 4th level spell slot, and using it might inflict an Exhaustion level on them until they take a long rest; later advancements might remove the Exhaustion level cost and grant them a second 4th level spell known.

>>51464836

Holy fuck, an actual chunni

>>51467740
I think it's more gorilla warfare.

>>51467716
Yeah, if they're dead-set on using d&d instead of a low magic system, they should stick to the low magic levels. Nonmagical fighters cant help but be inferior after L8, simply because of the burdens of mundaneity they're being forced to bear.

>>51467716

>keep at low level

What I said should ideally apply at ALL levels.

The fighter keeps up not because he's a demigod or magical, but through countless battles he's honed his natural fighting style to a degree where even the gods themselves are humbled.

>>51468052

But that literally cannot work unless you heavily restrict casters.

>>51467480
The ability to resist magic, perceive illusions, etc, due to grit is kinda useless without the ability to pursue and kill the teleporting, force caging, cloud killing wizard, however.

If you can't touch him, and he's got a 5% chance of ganking you, he can just keep trying until he succeeds.

If you just want experience and grit to win the day, at minimum you need to ban teleportation, dimension shifting, and flying without mounts.

And then you've still got to nerf the spells that are save/lose or nosave/lose.

>>51468052
High levels of d&d are redefining reality with your abilities. How do you expect that to happen without fighters having abilities other than killing skills?

>>51467845
Exactly why I recommend stopping at level 6. That makes you twice as tough as level 3, which is the real starting level in 5E since level 1 and 2 are more 'apprentice' levels according to the designers. I'd set it up so that every 5k or 7k XP a character can choose one the following. They can only choose each option once for a total of ten times.

> +1 to two different stats
> +1 to a stat and an additional hit die
> Two additional hit dice
> A Feat
> Increase their Proficiency bonus to +4
> Proficiency in one skill and one tool
> The next power or benefit their Archetype
> +1 to two different stats (if Martial) or a 4th level spell slot and one 4th level spell known (if a Caster). Choose which one you prefer if you're a Paladin or a Ranger.
> A class feature you'd get at level 7 or 8
> A class feature you'd get at level 9 or 10 (requires the level 7-8 feature chosen)

>>51468052
Literally impossible without heavily restricting spell access. Having more hit points and many attacks doesn't matter much when another character of equal level can summon stuff that's as strong as you, or can dominate enemies as strong as you, or just flat-out instantly defeat whole encounters. Not to mention teleporting, plane shift, polymorph, a million utility effects that outclass anything you could ever achieve. >>51468144 is right that high level D&D is about reshaping the world with your abilities. Four attacks a round just ain't gonna cut it.

>>51468144
And to be clear, I'm not discussing "how to kill a wizard" I'm discussing "how to be as useful a team member as the other players.

>>51468167
The fighter can kill stuff just fine, given proper equipment. The problem is that's the extent of his abilities.

>>51468052
Having the strength of will and inhuman ability to step on the face of gravity in order bring a flying mage/dragon/godling into the reach of your wrath is necessary if you're going to humble/frighten said entity.

You don't need to be Superman, Thor, Dumbledore, etc (in that your power comes from innate magical power, godhood, or bullshit alien physiology), but you're going to have to accept that becoming their equal through grit, determination, fighting skill, and experience means becoming superhuman yourself.

Those superhuman abilities might not technically be magic, but to compete with magic they've gotta give you similar or at least complementary options.