/anrg/ - Android Netrunner General

>>51417460
Doesn't work for me.

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>>51426933
My expectations upon Damon's first cycle were that he blew some fresh air into Netrunner, mostly because the shitfest that was Mumbad. And he delivered, with an amazing tie in side-game and right into the 23 seconds datapack. All factions got interesting cards to exploit different aspects of the game, making identities around a new way to remake old themes.
It was a pretty amazing first cycle for him.

I'm not much hyped for Red Mars though, I'm more hyped for Terminal Directive and i want to explore some more of this cycle.

Well, at least poor crims suck slightly less now.

>>51417460
Huh, I just realize that I BOUGHT Monster Slayer back during Xmas and haven't read it yet.

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>>51427219
Did the link work?

>>51428269
The link itself yes. The Kindle asked me to delete it and download it again from the store.

>>51426933
Started playing around the tail end of Mumbad, so I didn't really have any expectations going into Flashpoint, though the BoN reveal definitely had me hypest. Don't know about being hyped for Red Sands since the new IDs and the play styles that are being pushed don't really appeal to me (yet). Really hope it balances out corp side though, and that the first pack hits hard (and fast). Can't let the runners have all the fun.

>>51427003
Apparently they've always been doing decently compared to Shaper though, just that Andromeda was basically the EtF of Criminals.

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>>51428399
>The Kindle asked me to delete it and download it again from the store.
This NBN shit, I swear.

In other news, pic

>>51428622
Hyyype

Did Flashpoint deliver? To me it did well enough.

From the reveals I expected it to be something of a Genesis 2.0. And in some respects that's what it was, and I liked some of the amendments/additions brought and hinted at by the cycle. All the econ play was cool (though I still think the lack of ways to punish runner high liquidity play a bit weird; I understood those could never be strong options, but I definitely would have enjoyed having them), the fact that would-be problem cards and their solutions were released very close together, sometimes in the same data pack, was a good thing - however much some competitive players might seem to think it wasn't, as it "destroyed" decks before they had their time in the spotlight.

Some weird design decisions. I love the theme around Rumor Mill, but I'm still wondering wether it was needed when, in my opinion, Martial Law+Councilman was good enough and better balanced. Power cards gonna power cards I guess.

Sifr is the only big mistake to me.

>>51429080

But overall the game expanded in interesting ways. BoN and it's constant damage tax on running is something new that has interesting implications. AoT forces interesting decisions to runners that would otherwise specialize on a single server, PU's stack exhaustion strategy isn't anything new strictly speaking but the doubling down on net damage changes the dynamic, CtM, as much as I dislike it, opens venues on Link play, NULL is a better core Anarch ID than Noise, Omar introduces very new threatening plays by spreading defense, Smoke is the power house many stealth players had long been waiting for,a dn even Khan, as weird as she is introduces at least interesting new ways to look at running server. Full new rigs for all runner factions.

The emergence of anti heap play started here and we know to be continued later is pretty interesting too.

With the global expansion of the card pool, I find it's harder to properly evaluate cycles though. With all the new builds, and old builds with new cards you want to test I don't think our 20-something strong meta has even seen half of what the cycle had to give.

>>51429080
>>51429107

As of right now, I'm *fucking* hyped for Red Sands.

If Flashpoint looked like Genesis 2.0, what we've seen so far of Red Sands looks like Lunar 2.0. And Lunar is probably my favorite cycle in term of sheer novelty introduced in play (though to this day I remain somewhat uneasy about Currents).

And then of course there's Terminal Directive... everything we've seen of it so far looks pretty promising both as an expansion and as a legacy supplement. Really interested in seeing where things are going.

>>51427003

While I do think crims have been in a weird place, I always found the complaints way overstated, same way I thought the old Anarch complaints were way overstating things.

I guess that's how those things happen though.

>>51427219

Nice self-surprise.

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>>51428882
>scan a chapter, maybe 20 double page spreads
>might as well send it, combine it later
>error: file too large
>can't access it again
>have to re-scan
>I don't know what the filesize limit is
>wish I was at Levy or BB's London Library instead of my shitty one

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>>51430371

Damn.

Thanks a lot fo your efforts anon.

Have a Mister Stone as moral support.

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>>51430816
>Mister Stone
I should have realised that's who he was when I saw him he other day.
Looks rad.

Okay, so with the problems earlier and some of my own foolishness, I'm later than I planned to be.

I've gotten up to the low 70's - just finished the Jinteki section.
I'm coming in tomorrow for other reasons, but after I'm done I'll scan the other 200 pages.

It's averaging about a meg a page.

>>51430816

Somewhat disappointed they didn't make him a Damon Stone self insert, I must say.

>>51431436
Damon gets Mason Bellamy I think was the card. Mr. Stone's concept might've already been conceived a way earlier.

I'll say I have a hard time taking that baby tuft hair seriously though.

>>51431436

Kinda reminded me of Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg (Gary Oldman's part in The Fifth Element).

Only a lot more physically threatening.

It's too bad Subcontract already requires the runner to be tagged... would have offered a cool counterplay to Aaron.

>>51432447

There's actually some interesting design to explore here. Tied cumulative effects to prevent paid abilities from firing.

Success as a way to prevent SMC-clot for one...

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>>51432447
Yeah, subcontract is cool, but it's very hard to use - I think Consulting visit might help, but then you don't really gain anything - you'd still be using 2 clicks to play 2 operations with Subcontract.

Kind of interestingly, on all 3 corp cards she's on, Monica Singh needs tags - she'll trash anything, blow up multiple things, let you do things efficiently, but you pretty much need to have a bead on the runner

It's always a good day for new full arts

In some respects I wonder whether people are overreacting to Aaron.
It definitely impacts some play (and some play I like then) but then I don't really see as worse than Film Critic on that front.

>>51436385

Shiny!

Fun one: Ancestral Imager with ICE that makes you discard your whole hand.

>>51436570

Like how devastating rumor mill is supposed to be, yet there are still multiple tourney winning corp decks that feature Caprice/Batty.

>>51431083

Truely, you are a credit to all Runners!

No hurry, take as long as you need.

Such a stupid idea, but I kinda want to arm a Slee with Project Wotan Subroutines.

>>51437309

I understand where they're coming from with Rumor Mill. I'm not sure they're right, but that's basically 10% (55/515) of the card pool that can be neutered at the drop of a hat with basically no recourse on the corp side for a full runner turn. If you played any strategy - and many, if not most, were - that was co-dependent on some of those cards to create a scoring window, it leaves you feeling very helpless for sure, but on top of the high impact there's the breadth of things hit to consider.

Your silly Broadcast Square deck can be hit just as hard as your well oiled glacier deck (a shame given the thematic synergy with Rumor Mill).

>>51435588
That's the Replicating Perfection tree isn't it? Did the other corp IDs that are rotating out got anything as well?

>>51436570
>>51437309
There are situations where Rumor Mill and Film Critic are dead draws since they can't do anything. Aaron is like Beth, he's always good to draw and install, except maybe on match point. Criminals benefit the most ironically because Temujin probably already takes up a lot of influence for non-Crims, so Aaron is usually a 1-of, and 1-ofs are never as reliable.

He's definitely strong, and Criminals are probably the most invincible since ever to tag-n-bag, but he can be played around. Too bad he effectively blanks out Argus though, I hope it gets an errata buff to give two tags, or atleast support cards akin to Dedicated Response Team.

>>51438307

Funny thing is RM is now supposedly far less commonly used compared to Employee Strikes instead (even in Anarchs) due to reasons.

>>51438480

PE/RP/PU are all the same 'tree' essentially, what with being the same megacorp. And it's ironically on an ICE from a different megacorp.

And a 'mere' 6 inf to import tems is still far too low for comfort. It would be a terrible blow to crims if it MWL'ed because of that.

>>51438480
>Too bad he effectively blanks out Argus though,

Thank god for Hunter Seeker, Corporate Town (with an upcoming 2/0), Contract Killer. Not great, but workable.

>There are situations where Rumor Mill and Film Critic are dead draws since they can't do anything.

Film Critic will always be decent if your deck has been built around it (if only Source/NACH support), I'd say the issue (for a change) is more that Aaron is totally build agnostic and self-reliant (compare with, say Gang Sign, which has the same trigger, but demands to be build around). Not to mention the power jump if compared with something like Human First (a darling of mine, but well...).

>>51438872

Collateral damage of rarely used IDs (and a Wayland one no less) is worthwhile if that would make omnipresent breaking news combos that much harder.

Also, he should have been 3+ inf instead. At 2 he is just another crim card that gets looted by other factions.

So does anyone here use third party products for credits and other counters? A bunch of people at my local store are ordering acrylic stuff online, and while I like some of it, I think I'd prefer metal ones. I found some cool options for credits and virus/power tokens, but not anything else like brain damage and tags yet.

>>51440274
Temujin and anarch's MWL means he's a bit less splashable - probably only a 1 of outside of crim.

>>51438872
I'll be so glad when Fall Guy gets rotated - it's a fairly minor card, and I like it in Geist (and the theme is great), but it makes resources, especially ones balanced around self-trashing, so much stronger

>>51440380
I'll be very sad when Fall Guy goes. My connections spam deck is going to be decimated with those cycles gone

>>51440398
The likes of Iain and Leela are likely to have a lot fewer friends

>>51440763
Maybe Red Sand will have a lot of new friends in it.

>>51438742
The interesting part is that the tree in IP Block is the white tree specifically, especially since I didn't think NBN had much of a hand in the debacle besides dissing on Titan.

>>51440274
Argus is arguably a pretty popular 'fun' ID though, you don't see it much in competitive builds but most people liked the ID, instead of being undoubtedly terrible like Stronger Together.

I may or may not try my hand at redesigning the entire cardpool of A:NR, one box or cycle at a time, starting with the core set. I'm thinking of editing/rebalancing existing cards and swapping them around to make for better sets.
Any advice or suggestions?

>>51441295
You can call Stronger Together undoubtedly terrible as much as you want, but boosting all your bioroid ICE by 1 taxes the runner even more that Spark Agency. Suddently ICE out of Yog reach, subtly making the Runner lose entire turns just Running through a piece of ICE, going Glacier made it really taxing. It was my go-to ID during Spin Cycle and half Lunar.

Anyone know how to get an Excel table of all the core set card data easily? It would speed this up a lot.

>>51441425
What data?
Are you >>51441319 ?

You can get lists with str/inf/cost etc, but an excel table is unlikely - you'll just have to make it yourself.

If so, it really depends on your goals - some would say Yog and Mimic would be better at 2, while others say a significant portion of code gates and sentries need to be at 3 to keep yog and Mimic relevant.

On the whole, early assets were way too easy to trash.

Some cards (Wydside, Blackmail etc.) only really get broken in conjunction with others: Blackmail without Val is pretty fine, Blackmail with Val should have some limiting factor, like "remove 1 bad pub" as a cost

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>>51441493
>What data?
I want to create a table with columns like name, card text, set number, influence (and maybe install/play cost, and so on, but those can be incorporated into card text).

Basically, I want to export https://netrunnerdb.com/en/set/core but with card text included.

>Are you >>51441319 (You) ?
Yes.

Thank you for your contribution, I'll try to keep it in mind.

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This is going to take a while. I have to manually copy in card text and some other values.

>>51441418

ST is pretty taxing yes, but even then it often has issues paying for all the bioroids in the first place. AoT is arguably more taxing (despite -3 inf), because it can sorta afford more bioroids to begin with.

>>51441319

Pay attention to trace value and str of tracers in the beginning of the game and as they exist now.

They were too conservative with them early on.

>>51441951
Yeah, one of the first specific changes I want to make is reducing Kate's link to 0. Her ability already makes her credits, and Rabbit Hole is both in faction and easier to install for her.
Whether I raise the base trace strength will depend on the trace. I'll probably leave Ichi as is, for example.

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>>51441809
The really great thing about ST for me was that I only included 1 or 2 really strong ICE, and just filled the rest with Viktor 1.0, Ichi 1.0 and Eli. Relatively cheap ICE for the tax they produce. The Braintaping Warehouse at the beginning of SanSan almost made me want to go back to HB decks to rez those for free, but I already started to work my way through a series of Weyland Rush decks and didn't want to stop.

>>51442223

Experimented with that and it was pretty fun actually.

During Mumbad, someone here toyed with a Surat City Grid version that was pretty cool. The face on that Val/Blackmail player when he basically rezzed a whole server ex nihilo for almost nothing made it worth it in my opinion.

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>>51442000
Keep in mind that Rabbit Hole and Kate's ability in core was made so that she could reach trace 3 with relatively ease (she's shaper after all, and only 2 rabbit holes were included in the core set) and then Access to GlobalSec as seen fit to go over that. The rest of the factions only had access to "Access to GlobalSec" to deal with those traces.

This Trace 3 was important because NO TRACE in the core set was over that value. It was this way so the Shaper and the Corp started with te same minimal value before the trace started (barring extra GlobalSec) while the rest of the factions had to spend more resources for it.

Notice that Criminals, who had the Killers, Crash Space, and Decoys, never bothered with traces, which mostly just tagged you. And the Anarchs NEVER EVEN CARE about getting tagged, they played harder and were exposed to more risks. This is part of the reason why anarchs had a card like Disrupter during Genesis, just in case they found a trace they really cared, while ignoring the rest.

If I were to redo the coreset I'd pay special attention to how the game was supposed to be played for each faction, and how the the characteristics of certain cards affect the rest of the cards in the box.

>>51442390
>Kate's ability
I meant Kate's link.

>>51442395
>>51442390
I am incapable of even conceiving the idea of a core set with less than a full playset of everything. I twill not be one of my considerations.

>>51442416
I think about that point FFG just considered it was more important for new players to easily build the decks (mashing neutrals+factions) and start playing right away over having the whole playset of cards and then spend 10 minutes to build your decks from a suggested list.
I mean, the rulebook was already bad enough to understand.

>>51442451
Easily solved by separating the suggested deck parts and the spare playset ones.

>>51442465
Touche, I mean, it's probably an added production cost to do that, but if the cards are printed in sets of 3, then where did the rest of those went?

>>51442390

Definitely worth keeping in mind. Some early game assumptions that was thrown out the window from the start by the community at large (and has been making a slow comeback to my joy; Persephone will be gathering flowers) was the core idea of inefficient killer, high link compensation. You weren't expected to use Pipeline often.

Local meta was always weird in that we were big on trace/link from the start, and I do think it changes things quite a bit in how we see the game.

>>51442490
I'm absolutely ignoring any and all business and cost considerations with this redesign. It is not as if Netrunner will get rebooted, let alone taking it into account.

>>51442451

Very tangential, but was speaking with friends I'll seeing this week end that basically only pay together and they've been using a custom rule inspired by core I find interesting: unique cards are unique. Can only have one of them in you decks.

I know a player that builds "narrative decks" that does something similar, but never thought about it as a balance thing in itself.

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>>51442548
Interesting rule, I think that would need to produce a small boost in the cards power levels to balance the unpredictability of how often you will see a certain card during a series of games.
What I really like about the rule is that it makes room for tutors cards like Jinteki's Recruiting Trip.

>>51442548
I hate it, but it could have worked if it was in the game from the start and/or if many of the current uniques were made "limit 1 x per player" like consoles instead of being unique.

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>>51441768
If you have any programming skills, you could use netrunnerdb API to download the card list information and display it in Excel.

>>51442751
I figured something out, I'm now formatting the result to be more useful for my purposes.

>>51442658
>>51442678

What's really interesting me right now, will need to ask tomorrow, is why did they think it necessary in the first place?

>if many of the current uniques were made "limit 1 x per player" like consoles instead of being unique.

Was thinking it offers a weird but cool case with Forger.

>>51442776
Most current unique effects are balanced to only have one instance in play, but a full playset in the deck because you need to find them fast, like Astrolabe.

>>51442803
>need a full playset in the deck because you need to find them fast, like Astrolabe.

As per core, I don't agree with that. There's a *want*. But I don't think I see much of a need.

If anything, I'm thinking they chose that rule *specifically* to curb-stomp efficiency at the deck-building stage. Must level the field for them, being players with a different level of engagement with the game.

>>51442858
There absolutely is a need. Some effects are useless late game, and some strategies hinge on a single, specific card, especially jank. Your proposed houserule would inhibit jank and theme decks like a motherfucker fucks mothers: all the damn time.

>>51442858

To expand: I do think there's some instances where there is an actual need.

You'll have a hard time convincing me Khan wasn't designed to have 3 Temujin, given her rig.
Apex without multiple Heartbeat makes no sense.

But browsing the list of cards, I do think we have more example of cards where people *want* the efficiency rather than straight up *need* it.

>>51442950

Poor Paige Piper.

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Alright, alright, let's go.

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Right bros, now I've done my actual uni work, I'm scanning again.
Just about to start on the second of the trickiest bits - the big fold out of a Luna dome.

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>>51443758
>>51443150

Good luck to both of you.

>>51443758
>>51443150
Best of luck!

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It is done. 303 MB, 258 pages: short the first contents page.
Only one bit is a bit bugged, but it's right in the middle, and was one of the fold out bits which are really hard to scan.

Will put up on Mega when I get home, but I've put it on google drive:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bzy1xzxa-BxyZzNrME9vbmhPMTA

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>>51444604

Nice. Thanks in the name of everyone to whom this will prove useful.

Careful about traces.

>>51429080

Honestly I'm getting a little tired of the Sifr thing. I get that people aren't happy about the interaction it introduced, but let's not kid ourselves. Sifr isn't the elephant in the room here. The problem is and always has been Parasite. This is just the latest straw in a heap of obnoxious interactions with it.

What kind of decks do you guys think has an intuitive overall strategy such that you didn't have to consider synergy with other cards to make them work? Basically, what deck is so tactically strong that you could play it without listening to a summary of it? Was thinking of some friends who play casually who might like such a deck, since they prefer figuring out what to do as they go instead of listening to a summary of how the deck works.

>>51444923

The problem with Sifr isn't the power, it's the *cost*.

I'd be perfectly OK at the runner being able make one ICE zero strength at will if it was priced accordingly to the runner.

Reducing your hand size by one for one turn isn't a cost.

>>51445159
>I'd be perfectly OK at the runner being able make one ICE zero strength at will if it was priced accordingly to the runner.
I wouldn't. It still invalidates a core aspect of the game, and enables parasite a bit too easily.

>>51445010

So called "good stuff" anarch builds? Centered around having strong draw, strong econ, and efficient tools.

Pretty self explanatory in play.

>>51445174

I think it would be ok if, say, the runner's hand size was reduced to zero for one turn.

Yes, it invalidates a core feature, but at a price hefty enough that you have to work around to make it valuable.

It would be no more turning the game on its head than Nasir is. And Nasir does completely changes the value proposition of ICE as taxing.

>>51445235
Nasir can't really be compared, he changes the dynamic, Sifr eliminates it. Big difference.

>>51445235

Which reminds me, oh god: Nasir with the raptor breakers in a London Library/LLDS Processor rig.

>>51445251

You think having to discard your whole hand each time you want to use Sifr wouldn't be enough of a price to balance things?

Even disregarding the potential card trash cost, which you could play around, you're left open to EMP kill. BoN Kill. Any one damage source. Your deck would have to be centered around damage prevention. Or you'd go nowhere.

>>51445298
Well, yeah. Then the card is unusable. Which is also bad.

>>51445298

I don't think it would be unusable, I think it would be exactly what an Anarch card is meant to be, against which competitive players complained to the point that we were led into the current Anarch hyper efficiency mess, it would have been a high risk high reward card.

>>51445159

But you still have to be able to *break* the ICE. In a world without Parasite you would still need a rig set up. Blanking the strength on one piece of ICE is nice in theory, but you're still paying through subs and you still have to deal with on-encounter effects each time. Like who wants this short of Parasite shenanigans? It powers Null's breakers (And to a lesser extent the other fixed strength breakers though they were well supported enough that this isn't going to be the thing that breaks them forever). It makes one piece of ICE cheaper to break each turn. I'm pretty sure a Virus heavy deck still prefers Grimoire for the free counters for the same MU and cheaper install. A more general goodstuff deck I think still wants Obelus for the card draw and built in tag protection. there's *some* reason to run it in some decks but it's not the immediate standout choice.

If you want to splash it out of Anarch... *maaaybe* but it would depend on where your influence goes. Despite the comparisons this does not substitute for Nexus by any stretch of imagination. The decks that run it can power it out early and Nexus allows you to aggressively facecheck even while you're still setting up. Without the ICE melting I don't see it being better than Desperado. I've kind of seen Shapers all over the place with consoles but the main argument I've seen for that is that Shapers can run multiple Clone Chips to abuse the Parasite interaction. Which again comes down to Parasite which we've known was a problem for awhile.

>>51445298
Noble Path bro

>>51445838

Sorry, I don't have the stomach to have that conversation right now. I've been down that rabbit hole way too often recently, and then we're going to have to go back to why it's the timing structure changes with paid ability windows from ONR that is a bad thing.

>>51446001

Only deals with damages done during the run - in the examples given, only BoN.
But then Contract Killer, Ronin, Vulcan Coverup, Dedicated Response Team, Show of Force, Bioethics, Crisis Management/Door to Door, Fumiko Yamamori with a Psi Operation, Georgia Emelyov, Philotic, Punitive... I know I'm forgetting some.

Would Ancestral Imager work?

Also, now that I think of it does Slee get counters from a Parasite-trashed piece of ICE?

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>>51444604
GODLY, may the gods of cardluck guide your steps

>>51446179
>now that I think of it does Slee get counters from a Parasite-trashed piece of ICE?
Yes, ICE subs weren't broken. This is like a Chum scenario.

>>51446352

Thought so. Thanks.

>>51446179

I don't see why the paid ability structure would come up. Face it. People wouldn't be flipping out about Sifr nearly as much if it didn't have that Parasite interaction. Even if you couldn't instant speed Parasite, it would still be an issue, but Parasite's been a point of contention for ages now. Beyond that interaction Sifr would be mediocre. It saves you a couple credits a turn since, remember you're only saving on costs to match ICE strength and many commonly played breakers don't start off at 0 strength. It's usually in the 1-3 range.

>>51446645
>I don't see why the paid ability structure would come up.

Because you would have been forced to face/suffer the ICE at least once before it was trashed. Making it a potentially worthwhile transaction for the corp.

>It saves you a couple credits a turn

In a meta that is overly obsessed with gear check ICE? Yes. But then you can now break Archer with a Mongoose for 2 credits. D4V1D has been put on the MWL for a reason. This is a permanent D4V1D that also gives you two MU more for two credit more at only one influence a pop.

>>51446965

1.) Insta-parasite doesn't fizzle on-encounter effects
2.) This is, for the third time, an interaction with Parasite. An interaction I would point out already existed, just with a few more moving parts, and those themselves have gotten their fair share of complaints about them. Sifr, as a standalone card does what it does. It's still a fairly powerful effect, but not so much that it displaces other consoles.
3.) This is absolutely not D4v1d. D4v1d breaks subs *for free* and isn't limited to a single encounter. In particular with the rising number of multisub ICE, zeroing out the strength of one of them isn't going to suddenly bring about the End Times.

>>51447897
>Insta-parasite doesn't fizzle on-encounter effects

But it fizzle subroutines. Granted, the ONR timing wouldn't have allowedf for SMC or Clone Chip upon rez either. Personally find it better, but your mileage may vary.

>This is, for the third time, an interaction with Parasite

This is what you're making it out to be, while I'm saying it's only a part of it. Obviously we're not going to see eye to eye.

>This is absolutely not D4v1d. D4v1d breaks subs *for free* and isn't limited to a single encounter

D4V1D breaks *three* subs for three. Sifr allows you to make one ICE strength insignificant per turn. Per your following point on the rise of multi-sub ICE, that makes Sifr even worse than D4V1D, as it's more versatile. Also to underline: ONE influence. At four influence a pop ON the MWL people still played D4V1D out of faction.

>In particular with the rising number of multisub ICE

Which has been a huge issue in itself for a while now - but I think is in itself only symptomatic. There's been an arm race in high subroutine ICE to keep up as str was made less and less insignificant - which is what Sifr appears to be a culmination of. There's little big ICE play nowadays because there's no perceived value in it.

And of course, obviously, yes, in that context, Parasite is an even worse offender.

>>51448243

>But it fizzle subroutines. Granted, the ONR timing wouldn't have allowedf for SMC or Clone Chip upon rez either. Personally find it better, but your mileage may vary.

Might have gotten a bit off topic on that one. Insta-Parasite isn't anything new and has been a long-standing gripe about the game for ages now and consequently loops back to Parasite being the problem card here, not Sifr. Sifr still forces you to deal with the ICE in question, albeit for a discounted cost.

>This is what you're making it out to be, while I'm saying it's only a part of it. Obviously we're not going to see eye to eye.

How am I "making it out" to be an interaction with Parasite? What could you possibly find subjective about that statement? What other cards in the game than Parasite trash an ICE for having 0 strength?

>>51448243

>D4V1D breaks *three* subs for three. Sifr allows you to make one ICE strength insignificant per turn. Per your following point on the rise of multi-sub ICE, that makes Sifr even worse than D4V1D, as it's more versatile. Also to underline: ONE influence. At four influence a pop ON the MWL people still played D4V1D out of faction.

D4V1D didn't get MWL'd because other Runners were playing it out of faction. It got MWL'd to deny Dumblefork more of its out of faction silver bullets, like multiple Clone Chips. At 4 dots a pop most of the decks that splashed D4V1D only played it as a one-of, and for those that did splash more than one or those who played it in-faction in Anarch, D4V1D is a *non-unique* *program*. Given that it's more often a singleton the program aspect is more relevant, but let's review what that means: There are several ways to tutor it up and recur it. Much more than a console. Case in point out of Shaper it wasn't uncommon to Test Run out your one D4V1D, run through a server, topdeck the spent program, reinstall it next turn, run again, sell it to Aesop's, Clone Chip or Test Run it again, etc. And smart players rationed their D4V1D counters depending on the ICE layout. That's far more versatility than a Console that's less reliable to have right away. That's hardly a comparison to make.

>Which has been a huge issue in itself for a while now - but I think is in itself only symptomatic. There's been an arm race in high subroutine ICE to keep up as str was made less and less insignificant - which is what Sifr appears to be a culmination of. There's little big ICE play nowadays because there's no perceived value in it.

Now *this* is where we get into subjectivity. How are we defining "Big" ICE strength-wise? Because I still see plenty of DNA trackers and Fairchildren of the Third Edition, Archers on and off, and a good few Hiemdalls.Tollbooth and Data Ward are still making their rounds as well. I'd consider those on the bigger side.

>>51449191
>What could you possibly find subjective about that statement?

If I'm saying "I think there's a problem with Sifr", that your answer is "No, I think the problem is with Parasite", and I don't agree with you... well we're not going to see eye to eye, are we?

Do I think there an issue with Parasite? Yes. Do I think the combo with Sifr plays into it? Yes?
Does it subsume my issue with Sifr? No. The other way round really.

If high Str ICE play isn't worthwhile, everybody goes to pure gear check and/or as low str/high subs ICE to compensate - when not leaving ICE altogether. Which makes Parasite even worse.
But the power of Parasite is partly a symptom of high str play being too devalued. Which kills me because the Flashpoint cycle had managed to bring some of it back.

>Might have gotten a bit off topic

Definitely, but with the ONR timing, you would have been forced to face the ICE at least once before being able to Parasite it.

My issue isn't really so much with Parasite as much as with the possibility to instant install it mid-run.
I there's one thing the game hasn't been conservative enough in the early days it's with the power of paid ability interstitial effects in my opinion. This is the big issue, and it's not going to be easily remedied.

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>>51444604

Cheers mate!

>>51449344
>D4V1D didn't get MWL'd because other Runners were playing it out of faction.

Which is beside the point. The point was that at technically 5 influence a pop, it was *still* considered a worthwhile investment out of faction.
At one influence, still tutorable by Shaper (Artist Colony) hurting more ICE and more plays? Allowing to make even Pipeline a viable support breaker?
I'll give you the one thing it certainly has: it's more menacing in the very fast set up games.

>How are we defining "Big" ICE strength-wise?
>Because I still see plenty of DNA trackers and Fairchildren of the Third Edition, Archers on and off, and a good few Heimdalls.Tollbooth and Data Ward are still making their rounds as well. I'd consider those on the bigger side

Archer I must have faced... a couple of time last year. Same with Heimdall, but I'm seeing other bioroid in that price range, so I'm taking the point.

That being said, notice: none of those ICE are in the upper tier of money spending, you're capping at 8 credits. Most of those ICE are mutli sub, and the one that doesn't compensate by an on-encounter effect. The combination of high str+multi sub is built in with a fail-safe, the tag clause with Data Ward, the agenda sacrifice, the bioroid breaking - or for examples you didn't mention and are certainly going to become significant (if only Macrophage), traces. The one exception is DNA tracker, and it's part of the currently ongoing power creep in ICE.

Historically, look at anything past that was bigger than that and /or straight up high str with one subroutine? Not seeing them. STR by itself has been devalued. Too slow. Cost can leave you vulnerable. Too brittle with all the trashing options. No return on investment. Not played.

What you had instead has been gear check. And then the low str high sub ICE. And those are the best/easiest Parasite targets. So obviously then people got to the next step: as little ICE as possible.

>>51449436

Which tells me that you've missed the point of my argument altogether. You keep bringing up issues with Parasite up to and including the instant install bit and the move away from ICE because people are starting to feel like ICE don't matter. Those problems? They *already* existed before Sifr. In a world without Sifr, instant-speed Parasites still exist. Ask anyone who's faced down Dumblefork pre-nerf. And that issue with melting the ICE without having to pay through it once? That's *also* still there for that very reason.

Nexus Kate still laughs all the way to the bank and she doesn't even have to be scared of facechecking without a full breaker suite. Criminals still do... You know, Criminal things. Account Siphon you into oblivion. In a world with Sifr and no Parasite however, you get... To break that Hiemdall for 3 instead of 5 with Paperclip. Woo. Okay that's overgeneralizing, but can you honestly tell me that without Parasite you would run Sifr just to deal with some high str ICE rather than run Obelus and some Cutlery? At best, if your issue is splashability, the deck this helps out most is Big Rig Shaper who don't really have ways of dealing with big ICE other than smash through them and see kind of in a bad spot anyway. I just can't see Sifr being the go to console for *everyone* without that Parasite interaction.

>>51449436

Except

>2.) This is, for the third time, an interaction with Parasite. An interaction I would point out already existed, just with a few more moving parts, and those themselves have gotten their fair share of complaints about them. Sifr, as a standalone card does what it does. It's still a fairly powerful effect, but not so much that it displaces other consoles.

was clearly a response to

>Because you would have been forced to face/suffer the ICE at least once before it was trashed. Making it a potentially worthwhile transaction for the corp.

In what sense does that constitute a difference of opinion. Tell me how that statement you made is *not* due to an interaction with Parasite.

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>>51449585
You're welcome, but

Fuck YOU Aaron Marrón, I had to hire contract killers just to kill you.

Incidentally, here's the mega link if people prefer that or whatever (does it auto-zip?):
https://mega.nz/#!KwklySAT!1Cyj-E2K4rVN-WvfLBzykoqACFeKHH6gPAUEsuQYbk4


Leela + the derez birds is a scary opponent, when she's set up.

Except if you have Mother Goddess. Then you can trash your ice to make goddess typeless and laugh all the way to the bank

>>51449810

>
That being said, notice: none of those ICE are in the upper tier of money spending, you're capping at 8 credits. Most of those ICE are mutli sub, and the one that doesn't compensate by an on-encounter effect. The combination of high str+multi sub is built in with a fail-safe, the tag clause with Data Ward, the agenda sacrifice, the bioroid breaking - or for examples you didn't mention and are certainly going to become significant (if only Macrophage), traces. The one exception is DNA tracker, and it's part of the currently ongoing power creep in ICE.

So not every piece of ICE gets played and of those more expensive ones they're typically only seen in specialized decks like Blue Sun. There are other considerations that just base strength. Most decks don't want to funnel all their econ into ICE when they need to balance it out between rezzing Assets and advancing Agendas as well. That alone is reason to want to put a spending cap on your ICE, and rez to strength as a ratio is also a consideration. Conversely, think of how many ice*breakers* don't get played because their install and/or cost-to-break ratios are terrible.

>>51449935
>I just can't see Sifr being the go to console for *everyone* without that Parasite interaction.

On that I tend to agree. Problem is, I don't think it needs to in order to hurt. And I do fear it's going to get enough traction to send ICE play back again.

>Those problems? They *already* existed before Sifr.

Yes but I think they're a byproduct of ICE play (and especially big ICE play) being devalued. So a tool that devalues ICE further still appearing, *just* when people were starting to think we were seeing some light at the end of the tunnel? Going to magnify those issues.

At best it's salt on the wound, driving people away. At worse it means ICE is going to become truly meaningless as an econ tax. Middle ground we get the current complaints of "not real netrunner" being here to stay, justified in it, as we see ICE continuing the power creep (which I'Il grant is to a point warranted and needed) to remedy the lessened long term tax.


>>51449993

Then I guess the problem is that I just don't understand where you're going.
If I say the problem isn't with Parasite as a card - and yes I'm discussing it, but I'm strictly discussing it to say it's *not* the origin of the issue, it's a symptom of something way bigger in the current set up of the game... I AM saying the problem isn't with Parasite, am I not?

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, I understand why you'd want to patch up at that point in the design: it's way easier. Manageable. But I think long term it's not going to be the solution because the issue isn't one card it's a whole set up. Of which Sifr is a tipping point.

>>51450103
>Conversely, think of how many ice*breakers* don't get played because their install and/or cost-to-break ratios are terrible.

I'd say the problem is the other way round: they've released breaker sets that were just far too good - more than anticipated, making everything else bad by comparison and they can't erase them. So they've had to deal with the fallout. Which actually *has* been part of the set up of our current problems.

>>51450043
>Leela + the derez birds is a scary opponent, when she's set up.

I like the sound of that.

>>51450394

Can you give me an example for that one?

>>51450539

Just look at core Anarch breakers. Yog.0? Terrible mistake; no other permanent breaker does what it does. It breaks for nothing. Just invalidates a whole slew of ICE by itself.

Datasucker? TERRIBLE mistake. Too much value too easily in that card. Magnifies the Yog.0 problem to the point that big code gates make Yog.0 *more* valuable instead of the contrary. The whole weakness of the rig was supposed to lie there. The corp can purge. Generally speaking, we saw that wasn't the issue it was meant to be.

If we have to believe the Core set runner rigs as a whole were supposed to be balanced - and I don't think we have reasons to doubt that intent, then we can see how much they fucked up.

Generally speaking look at the problem icebreakers: High base str; low (ish) install cost, low/perfectly granular breaking cost. 3 str for Yog.0 and Mimic? Lady? Too high.
Then add the low influence.

Think about it: they're the best against low str ICE. They're the best against high subroutines ICE. They're the most aggressive breakers for early play. With support they become the best against big ICE.

They fucked up big time with that set up and we've been under its shadow ever since because *nothing* they could throw at it would make it not the best set. There's no ICE they could make that wouldn't make those the best breakers. And the game was still for the longest time designed around the idea that there was to be some balance... were the other breakers were standing.

>>51449935
>but can you honestly tell me that without Parasite you would run Sifr just to deal with some high str ICE rather than run Obelus and some Cutlery?
Jumping in ignoring context here, but Criminals absolutely would import Sifr as support to their awkward to pump breakers.

>>51451096
Holy shit this. If my current crim deck didn't rely on logos, and had any influence whatsoever, Sifr would make my runs so much cheaper

>>51450915

And then of course you have to add the rest of the support over time.

The irruption of mid-run install Parasite making it so it could effectively replace any breaker.

D4V1D castrating high str counter-play- suddenly the value to look for with ICE was 4 - the Anarch blind spot as I call it.

The explosion of ICE destruction options being the final nail in the coffin. You're not rezzing a Hadrian Wall when it can be Knife-d For two power counters. Before it might have been an option, trying to wear down the runner. Not after, the risk is scaled way too much in the runner's favor.

And now we have Sifr. A console that - maybe imperfectly but still well enough - basically replaces Datasucker/D4V1D, and brings the capacity to ignore ICE strength altogether to all factions for a modest influence price.

Unlike Datasucker, it cannot be purged, doesn't need to be armed. Unlike D4V1D, it doesn't exhaust itself. And then an install cost difference I find is relatively insignificant nowadays. Even if you're just purging a low str ICE you're probably making those two credits back on first run. Hell, given it allows you to make Inti your main feacter, you're probably not even losing that much in early aggression.

And the price to pay for that zero cost? The diminished hand size of one? Way too low. You can ignore it altogether. Especially in those BOOM! times.

>>51450915

And therein lies an interesting interaction. What happens when you take away Datasucker? Suddenly that fixed strength clause is a hell of a lot more restricting. Yog may have been a mistake, but things like Gordian Blade still see a good amount of play because they don't require the extra set up and don't run the risk of you getting locked out. Yog shouldn't have been free to break, but the 3 str on Yog and Mimic? Obviously it's meant to balance out the fact that on their own they have no way of interacting with ICE above three strength. Unlike any other Breaker suite, with those, you need more than just Breakers and credits.

Lady's an... interesting example. The rest of that cycle are rarely played at all and I'm fairly certain Lady's sin isn't so much its efficiency as its subtype. Had it been a decoder (in the faction that specializes in them), then I'm sure it would have had to compete with the likes of Gordian Blade and Study Guide. Instead it was a very efficient *fracter* in a faction where the next best option was... Snowball, which is not a bad card, but let's face it. The competition for Shaper Fracter wasn't that tough. Beyond that though, that's one rig and one later breaker, to which it feels like the Core Set stuff was balanced in the context of the Core Set but not so much with later additions.

>>51451300

I don't see why you'd make Inti your main Fracter just because of Sifr. What happens when you have multiple barriers to run through? What happens when you have a board full of mid-range ICE? You still have the rest of the server to get through.

>>51451096
>>51451159

Likewise here. What happens when you have multiple ICE to get through? I don't think Sifr's once-a-turn trigger is really going to be your saving grace against some awkward pump ratios. Wouldn't Desperado's money-for-runs pay you back more in the end, especially given that it works even if you don't even necessarily have to go through ICE?

>>51450915
>>51451300

Last but not least: in the early days of the game, the anarch faction was designed to have weaknesses that made that powerful rig somewhat warranted - and actually best used elsewhere for too low an influence cost.

The classic anarch set up was messy, you wanted for draw, you wanted for money, you wanted for clicks. You couldn't have it all. You had to make choices. Which was good, because the faction was tied to powerful explosive effects (I mean, just look at Medium).

Which made it the high variance faction.

But people complained. To a point they certainly were right too because that monster of a rig was being used wholesale by the factions that didn't come with the constrains. While importing everything the faction needed back wasn't really possible.

Trouble is, people got what they wanted. Just beware what you want.... So now Anarchs have the ridiculous rig, the money, the draw, the clicks efficiency and the explosive effects that were supposed to be theirs because they didn't have all that.

And so I think we're seeing what Mr Stone's answer has been: realign everything on that base set up and scale up accordingly. Which is bringing the current (controlled I think) power creep. Overall, I've been thinking Flashpoint has been doing a great job at it.

But Sifr... Sifr is unfortunate. It's the flicker that makes one doubt whether the light a the end of the tunnel might not just be a train.
For all we know, once things have realigned, we're going to think it's perfectly... not fine, but acceptable. But right now, as it stands it's oil on the fire.

>>51451773
>What happens when you have multiple ICE to get through?
I'm still saving at least 3 credits, in almost any scenario. Especially in say, a server that has multiple code gates and I'd normally have to boost peregrine twice for a stupid amount of money.

>>51451773
>I don't see why you'd make Inti your main Fracter just because of Sifr.

We already have/had decks that use it as their fracter support breaker. The thing is Sifr makes it so you effectively use it as your main breaker for long enough that you can fully set up - if you ever need to - and the zero cost means you're not hurting your early game aggression.

>Lady's an... interesting example. The rest of that cycle are rarely played at all and I'm fairly certain Lady's sin isn't so much its efficiency as its subtype.

I think it's the everything. 4 cost. 3 strength pump-able. breaks for free. Only weakness insignificant in the faction that recurs like it's nothing.
It has it all. The fact that it has it all in the faction that isn't supposed to be having the best fracters is icing on the cake.

>What happens when you take away Datasucker?

You do relatively fine because no one plays high str ICE because of D4V1D/ICE destruction. Which leave us with the Anarch blind spot. No as if people didn't play that. rig

And even then Datasucker is just too good. In value it can be way better than Desperado really.

>>51451773

I was just thinking. Look at Cuj.0. I mean if you compare it with Mongoose, pound for pound I think they're about as good.

Trouble is, no one* plays Cuj.0 in Anarch, which is *not* supposed to be the faction with the best killers, while Mongoose has been welcomed as a breath air in Criminals, which is supposed to be THE killer faction.

I think that says it all really.

*: well I do occasionally, don't hold that against me.

>>51451773
>What happens when you take away Datasucker? Suddenly that fixed strength clause is a hell of a lot more restricting.
Considering how most <=5 cost ice are around 3 strength, it still means corps can't save credits on rezzing ice, and invalidates huge swathes of ice. The phrase "Dies to Mimic/Yog" comes up so often during deckbuilding it's not even funny.

>What happens when you have multiple ICE to get through?
You Inside Job the outermost. You Tracker the single sub. You already Emergency Shutdowned the most expensive piece of ice before the run, and Siphoned the corp down to poverty. Then break the Wall of Static for 4 with Aurora because why the fuck not, you have 20 credits anyway.

I love playing Criminal.

>>51450043

A good reason as any to slot 2 of him in any crim deck even before hunter killer appears.

Also, always keep a Femme for that random mother goddess.

>>51453929
Tracker deals with Mother better than Femme.

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>>51454471
Oh, that's pretty nice. Very good anti-rush

>>51455245
I really like Tracker with Grappling Hook.I wish I could recur it enough to make it my main breaker.

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>>51455531
>>51455245
Another funny interaction, Street Magic allows you to pick which sub is Tracker going to prevent from firing.

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>>51455693
>Street Magic
That could be pretty good if you're running a deck where you don't expect to break many subs, and the Tracker combo is pretty neat

>>51454471

Yeah it is pretty decent, although it would suck if your rig is already set up and corp trashes all the other ice other then goddess.

>>51455713

Then Tracker just runs through it for a cool 2 creds anyway.

Enhanced Vision + Find the Truth?

>>51457530
I used Enhanced Vision with Security Testing to gather information on when to Legwork/Turning Wheel HQ.
What synergy are you seeing with Find the Truth? If anything I think running enough with Find the Truth makes Enhanced VIsion irrelevant.

>>51457589
That's true, I guess the excitement of seeing two cards on the first successful run made me giddy. Practically Enhanced Vision could fill in the gaps for when you don't run/Find the Truth isn't down yet, especially in Criminal where FtT is likely a 1-of.

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>>51444604
This is some amazing work, but it's missing some pages.
The content pages you mention, pages 2-3
Between 45 and 56 (Jinteki), probably pic related.
And for some reason the fold out is between 147 and 154. Which is all about Luna, the Lunar Uprising and Heinlein with the Saga of the Silver City.

>>51458511
Ah, yeah I do appear to have missed 2 pages on Luna (152-3) - the fold out is under 146-7, so that's why it starts there.

The HB section I've found I did scan, I just forgot to add it - because there was a shit-ton of emails from the scanner and I skipped over one. They're not the best though, the full page newspaper thing is harder to scan well.

It's here:
https://mega.nz/#!bl0XkKoZ!5Jf4OyhUcYXLgiwjXS6MQkRskiQosPhhMFq8lBrfo_w

Unfortunately I've only got Reader on my home computer, so adding it back in will be a while yet - as will the scan of the last 2 pages

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I was making an Apex deck and thought of something, so I better check with you guys.
Sifr-Prey is a nonbo right? Sifr last only the encounter, while Prey triggers once the ICE is passed. So the strength is back to whatever.

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>>51459652
Sadly for Apex, correct

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>>51459992

>>51442548
>>51442858
>unique cards are unique

For those who cared, reason for this was, they felt they enjoyed the balance of single core decks better than the optimized build they later made with full sets and put this as a rule of thumb to generate decks that would be somewhat equivalent.

Enjoyed it. Magnifies the impact of cards (you don't play Jackson the same way when you can only have one; a, R&D trashes are more frightening too).

Don't know that I would enforce it as is, but interesting experiment.

>>51451808
>Sifr
From what I hard, one of the designers stated that the sales team had gone over his head and "sexified" a card at the last minute after playtesting had completed.

>>51464288

Yeah, from a interview with Mr Sone, though we don't have confirmation on which card. Sifr does seem like the likely candidate.

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>>51464405
Which interview was that?
I've heard people mention this a few times now

>>51464937

If I'm not mistaken, the winning agenda podcast Ep84.

>>51464288
Still better then the few leaks we have seen of the L5R LCG. Sounds like they do not even have a designer on it and the sales/marketing team is writing it.

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>>51465054
Thanks. Hope we get an Eratta/Serious ruling on Sifr ASAP

>>51465095
Really?

I was talking to someone today who was pretty hype about L5R - as a setting anyway, and they loved the old game.
How busted does the new one look

>>51455693
>Tracker+Street Magic

Really, really cute. I'm loving that one.

>>51465225
They are using the Star Wars pod style system, the new cards all look super over powered, they took our dueling, favor, honor, etc.

It is just dudes with swords smashing into each other from what I have seen.

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>>51465502
>pod style system,
Don't play SW, what's this?

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>>51465755
You build your deck by picking objectives and each objective comes with 5 cards that go into your deck.
So you build your deck 5 pre set combos of cards at a time.

From the leaks L5R is doing this by having the Clan members each by a Commander and their bring a pod of gear/followers/spells/tactics with them.

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>>51459165

Thanks again. Looking forward to the final updates.

Random thought from today's testing: if a strategy of repeated derezzing becomes strong, Space ICE becomes a strong deterrent.

Tracker deals with those cheaply and efficiently, while enabling Khan's ability.

Worth keeping on tab I guess.

>>51466607

Derez would have to be a lot more easier to pull off first before space ice outside Big W would be considered a good idea.

>>51467763
Much easier to trash ICE than it is to derez at this point really.

Which weyland ice is the best? And what is some good ice to use from other factions?

>>51470573
Mausolus

>>51470573
Mausoleus, IPBlock, Wendigo
Wendigo into Cobra is just too much fun.

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>>51467763
>>51468186

Still worth keeping in mind. In a context were ICE trashing gets more and better punitive counters - and we know some are coming - and derrez gets more support - and we know some is coming too - well the value of each might change.

Keeping an eye to the future.

In a deck with ice that hurts to facecheck and break, which would be better to keep money up: Subliminal Messaging or PAD Campaign?

>>51471431
IP Block is NBN.

>>51470573
Ice Wall because cheap gearcheck.
Mausolus is expensive to break.
Archer is great if you have 1-pointers.

For import, NBN's ice is usually imported. Data Raven supports the kill plan by being very taxing. IP Block gives tags if they use AI. Pop Up gives money on encounter. Not sure if the other factions offer anything better.

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>>51472430
>1-pointers.
0 pointer soon.
And by soon I mean pack 4 of mars, Blood and Water

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>>51472492
Also great for the unparasitable pic related (can still be sifr'd and trashed with cutlery)

>>51470573

Ice Wall is probably the purest gear check (shh Vanilla).
Doesn't get the love it deserves, but in some decks I do prefer Bailiff to it.

Overall, you have all the variation of barriers and other strict ETR needed to tailor that aspect to the needs of you deck and meta call (from Tour Guide to Curtain Wall)... it's the other propositions that are lacking.

Well, Archer is Archer. Good, but in a very fluctuating position.
Mausolus is indisputably good.
I like Wormhole myself, but I can see why it's not more popular.

A few cards sitting in that weird spot of "could (can) be good but"... I got some real kicker out of Taurus recently, but it's only really because no one expects it. The Shadow/Caduceus/Veritas trifecta. Checkpoint. Sapper needs more testing but looks like it could belong there (though I hope it will be good). Surprise Swarm was sitting there, but with the evolution in breaker offerings, I don't know that it still is. Wendigo. Red Tape.

Then there's the what the hell were they thinking ICE: Burke Bugs (though I still got a kick out of that one), Salvage, Search Light.

Several cool things to look for in the near future though: Hortium/Watchtower, Bloodletter, and the beast Tithonium.

As for importing, really depends on what your deck is going to do. NBN tagging ICE has obviously always been popular but then your deck might not even pack Scorched Earth...

>>51472430
>In a deck with ice that hurts to facecheck and break, which would be better to keep money up: Subliminal Messaging or PAD Campaign?

Do you need he credit more than you can benefit from the trash temporarily hurting the runner?

>>51472492
I just noticed that it doesn't say "trash 1 of *your* installed cards." Intentional, or an oversight?

>>51472714
I think it should say "one of *their* installed cards" as it passes from player to player.

I think, based on how the rest of the card works - especially the decline mechanic

>>51472694
Oh, if you need to spike up RnD and can't afford Snare then Sapper is pretty good.

>>51472708
Credit more than the trash cost I think, since I regularly hover under 10 credits at the moment. That said, the deck is a semi-glacier (semi because porous ice, but hurts to fire and expensive to break).

>>51472754
Trashing your opponent's card would still fit though; runner trashes my ice, I trash his console, they then decline because he doesn't want his breakers trashed. Fits with the Stand Off theme of firing back and forth too.

>>51472714

I'm reminded of this:

https://twitter.com/iLogos/status/794212834850799616

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>>51472792
>Trashing your opponent's card would still fit though; runner trashes my ice, I trash his console,
That's a point. I still think it's self-trashing though.

>>51472834
>>51472714
Speaking of doing things with other player's cards MCA Informant is also likely to be a bit of a rules issue with pic related - there's a lot of potential shenanigans with what's effectively an unavoidable tag.
Though at least it's terminal.

>>51473573
Maybe someone who went to the event and played against it can clarify for us. Damon probably won't say anything until it's released.

And what does MCA Informant do again?

>>51473852
>And what does MCA Informant do again?
IIRC that's the NBN card that turns a connection into a tag.

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>>51473852
It's what >>51473872 says, you can see most of it (not the inf or cost tho) here >>51472419

It comes up because Troubleshooter is a Connection, meaning the runner can't use MCA Informant's get out clause - they have to try and run and trash the shooter

There's also an amusing interaction with Kati

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Hmm, Macrophage + Sub Boost - jank, or terrible jank?

Obviously still dies to sifr-parasite, because 99% of ice does, and Power Tap gives it a bad time, but a 5 sub strength 7 barrier is no laughing matter, and you can always use Sub Boost on other ice to make it mildly inconvenient - especially on the odd occasion that there's no Paperclip

>>51474144
Just as janky as Checkpoint + Sub Boost. That is, it works, and is pretty fine. To note Power Tap wouldn't work with Paperclip since the subs get broken.

That said, I do wonder why the patching operations aren't more popular. Maybe it just isn't worth the click and deck slot?

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>>51474405
No, but Power Tap is nasty with Macrophage - 4 traces, if you let them fire.

Yeah, the patching ops unpopularity are kind of a symptom of the whole "ice is kinda weak" thing - if ice is trashable and relatively easy to break then they're not worth the slots.
Similar to advancing ice

>>51474559
Oh hey, Paperclip doesn't force you to break subs equal to the pumped strength. My bad, I thought it was forced. So yeah, Power Tap would definitely make Macrophage feel bad.

Wonder what would help make ice feel stronger. Good break vs rez ratio doesn't seem to be enough, permanence also isn't really a thing, strong subs only matters when they fire.

All that talk about ICE devaluation throws me back at the Rumor Mill complaints.

When people complain that Rumor Mills single-handedly invalidates glacier, what I'm reading is that ICE transactional value is currently so low that only defensive upgrades are considered to allow for a taxing strategy to even exist.

Which to me points at a much deeper problem than Rumor Mill.

>>51472792

Not to mention it puts more of a risk reward factor. Score it while you're ahead and you have all the goodies to trash, so chances are you break the chain as fast as possible. Runner trashing all your ICE? Nice juicy rig? Fast advance this baby, then see how willing the Runner is to play chicken.

>>51474882

Well, as one Anon mentioned, more ways to punish ICE destruction might help. Right now your best options are Hostile Infrastructure which probably isn't going to be in a deck with many ICE anyway, or CtM. Though I've been experimenting with the latter and it's kinda satisfying to tag a dude because he couldn't just leave your Pop Up Window alone.

>>51475641

I'm interested in cards like Mills with Standoff. Assets with an effect upon rez, and a secondary effect I might want but can do without.

Or assets that have a transient value - Constellation Protocol.

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>>51475637
Ice is important, but there's a number of caps on Glacier - Stealth is a huge one, you'll almost never be able to beat it with strength alone - you'd need to stack a lot of ice to hurt it.

And david, especially combined with ice destruction - even the best ice in the world is only taxing while it's still in play.

>>51475826

This is exactly what I'm saying - though without going again into the specifics of why it so: if the suppression of defensive upgrades in itself is supposed to invalidate glacier, it means that ICE as transactions aren't playing their taxing role anymore. Not well enough at least.

Which to me point at a much bigger, much deeper issue than Rumor Mill, which should be a mere hindrance if the ICE game was in a more healthy state.

What ICE trashing was in the old Netrunner?

>>51475637

Which in and of itself creates a weird situation as you have cards like... well, Caprice is really the only *big* offender, although Sanburg is kind of on my watchlist. You have a card in Caprice that is *self-protecting* (In Sandburg's case it's more just how easily it can snowball but that's a bit easier to deal with, admittedly.) Councilman and Pol Op help to a degree, but Councilman is pretty easy to play around in that one they see one they know to just pre-rez their upgrades. Pol Op had its day in the sun for awhile, but even before Rumor Mill I was already seeing it falling in play and beyond those there aren't really ways for most Runners to interact with her. Jackson, while not defensive offered a similar problem. That said it feels like a lot of the fairer defensive upgrades like Ash got shafted in the process. With that said I don't know *why* Pol Op fell off the grid so early. I also can't help but wonder what happened to good old fashioned bluffing/traps? Sure a moderately taxing server is nice but if your complaint is that it isn't taxing enough why not toss some uncertainty in there? Sure the Runner *can* get in with their Fausts and D4V1Ds and such, but when the Runner has to respect that brain damage or the breaking of their shiny toys might be waiting at the end of the server they have to evaluate when to run which can open up scoring windows in and of itself.

>>51475637
Well, a frequent complaint seems to be runner economy has been getting out of control lately. Ice plays are supposed to be baiting out the runner, taxing him until he can't run a second time, then try to score. Defensive upgrades like Caprice help by multiplying that amount. Just from looking at Netrunner streams though, runners usually have enough to get in a non-defensive upgrade remote 2-3 times in succession, even with 4 pieces of ice protecting it, and all the while agendas are either piling up or leaking out of centrals.

Then there's the amount of investment the corp has to do. The amount of ice is finite while being variable in frequency, install costs increase as they get deeper, negligible return when rezzing ice and assets, the tempo loss when scoring agendas, etc. etc.

Perhaps that's the bigger problem? Runner economy losing less steam via runs and installs, while Corp economy has difficulty recovering after they invest it in stuff with zero return?

>>51476208
Because competitive players don't like what they call Yomi. They like to crunch numbers and play safe.
Throw in some Yomi and they freak out and quit. Pussies.

Just recreating my favourite card into Netrunner.

Blast Sphere
Jinteki
Ice - Trap - AP
6 rez 2 strength

When the runner encounters Blast Sphere, declare either a Barrier, Code Gate, or Sentry subtype. Blast Sphere gains that subtype for the remainder of the run.

When the Runner breaks all subroutines on Blast Sphere, uninstall Blast Sphere and attach it to an icebreaker that was used during the encounter. On the start of the next Runner turn, trash that card and deal net damage equal to the install cost of the attached ice breaker.

-> Deal 1 net damage
-> Deal 1 net damage

>>51475641
Personally I would NA it and happily trash everything I can, then Friends some ice onto centrals.

>>51476787
>trash that card and deal net damage equal to the install cost of the attached ice breaker.
Bonkers overpowered.

>>51476817
Scavenging the program would remove it, as does trashing it and installing a different program. B&E suite is unaffected by it. And if you happened to run last click, you could just suffer the subs.

>>51476899
Still overpowered.

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>>51476098

Far less numerous though more powerful (I'm trying to remember the name of that card that allowed you to trash a whole remote). But then you have to understand the economy was completely different too.

>>51476306

No, no you don't understand. It's not fun if you win *by luck*.

And taking a calculated risk to bluff is obviously luck.

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>>51477660
>that card that allowed you to trash a whole remote
We have that now too.

Are the credits on Loan 10, 1, 10, respectively? I can't read it very well

>>51477718

No, you don't understand. A WHOLE remote. ICE included.

12 gain, 1 per turn, 10 upon trash

>>51477799
Huh I thought Singularity ate the server. Doh.

Though that does sound a cool card

>>51477832
It's disappointing that a Singularity doesn't eat the whole server. Although I understand how broken that is.
Hell, look at Apocalypse.

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Totally unrelated to anything, but while browsing old cards...

>>51477992

Honestly, the first time I read it, I thought it was what it was doing - bringing back that old card I'm still looking for.

Glad it doesn't though.

>>51476306

But that's idiotic. It was clearly an aspect of the game that was *meant* to be exploited. We have Project Junebug, Aggressive Secretary, and Ghost Branch all in Core and even Cerebral Overwriter in Creation and Control. You have all these people complaining about how ICE don't carry the game for the Corp despite the fact that they're ignoring an *entire aspect of the game* that easily supplements your ICE play. And from both sides of the fence a well timed AggSec or Shattered Remains can really set a Runner's game plan back, believe me.

>>51477688

I'm hoping that's sarcasm but the internet makes it hard to tell sometimes. Just in case though:

But Caprice is fine.
Or building your deck around traces and hoping you never run into a Link-focused Runner. That sort of thing.

>>51478810
>I'm hoping that's sarcasm

Rest assured it is.

That being said, given how many people claimed to high heaven Caprice would be the end of Netrunner, I don't know how fine she is. Beside being a fine lady.

>>51476283
>Well, a frequent complaint seems to be runner economy has been getting out of control lately

I keep coming back to this... trying to see how much of a role it plays in the bigger picture.

>>51478810
>>51478976

Have to add also, given how the competitive meta had to be dragged kicking and screaming into using the link/trace mechanic, which remained ignored for the longest time, I'm not sure that's the best example.

Or maybe it is actually... some more not so subtle pointers needed...

>>51479103
>some more not so subtle pointers needed
Yeah, probably - the meta, even the general one, not the hyper-competitive one, tends to be slow to change and need a good whack to get its attention.

We'd need some really nice traps for them to come back in a big way I think

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Do you think that Netrunner needs a competitive ban list?

I've heard some people advocating for a ban list on the Stimhack forums and on reddit, but personally I'm against this. I think MWL is a perfect solution to most problems presented in Netrunner, and certain cards are more problem heavy than others, just make them detract more influence so that people run less of them. I think banning cards outright won't fix the problem, but allowing people to continue playing the cards they want, while being more restricted will help find new avenues of play that haven't been seen yet. Anyways, what are your thoughts?

>>51479780

Trouble is I think the ambushes are as good as they can get in term of detrimental effect without making the game too binary for its own good (just look at the way some people look at Mushin).

Conversely, I'm thinking what *would* satisfy a lot of people is basically ambushes with their built-in Back Channels. Damn if you do, damn if you don't, no risk involved for the corp. Which to me at least would be a very bad thing. The risk taking - the creation of tension for both players - is integral part to the value of the decision I find.

Hell, I like Thomas Haas to an extent for something that goes that way in a limited fashion, but he's clearly not good enough for the larger player base.

>>51478976

Well, Caprice being fine was also sarcasm. If people don't want to use ambushes because "muh luck" then why complain about Rumor Mill removing the luck factor that is Caprice from the equation?

>>51478976

Which is another point in favor of exploring the traps again. Runner econ I'd great now, so pure economic warfare hasn't been working, especially for Glacier. It's true that the Runner has enough econ to breach the server multiple times. They're *supposed* to. But if all you do is play assets that cost the Runner credits to trash when they can build their cash back up and present the Runner no reason *not* to run them, then no shit you're going to end up with a pile of Agendas in HQ. You know what that pile of Runner credits doesn't automatically fix? Trashing their console. Sure they might have the funds to replace it, but that's turns they have to spend digging for and reinstalling it. It turns out Shattered Remains is *pretty* good for buying a Corp some breathing room.

>>51480374
The problem they see with those is that not only is very hard to learn when is the appropiate time to do it (experience/talent needed) but also they are resources spent that might fall flat (suboptimal play if the bait fails).

>>51479902

We probably won't agree on what needs to be banned anyway.

(That being said, we've been playing mostly without the core set for a couple of weeks now, and I must say I find it actually does the game a lot of good).

Honestly though, I tend to agree with you, but then I'm not concerned with banned lists. Apart from tournaments we don't even strictly enforce the MWL around here. The splintering of the community is hard enough to deal with, not going to play hard ball and make things worse.

I like the idea of the MWL as a way to regulate the ebbs and flows of the meta over time without being too heavy-handed - without simply shutting down potential builds. Adding granularity to it - giving varying influence penalties to cards - could actually prove interesting. I like that idea.
The MWL biggest problem I think is that it moves at a pace that is awkward - too slow to the most dedicated competitive, too fast to the more casual crowd that still dabble in tournaments. A problem that is basically the strict parallel of the release schedule issues when you're down to it.

>>51480138
>Well, Caprice being fine was also sarcasm.

Opens an interesting point in itself to me. We all have different thresholds to what constitute acceptable randomness. Look at how many people basically see deck building as the process of negating draw related randomness... PSI is not perfectly random. One PSI game might but given there is a cost involved, over time you can manage that random element into something controllable. Similarly an ambush is not a purely random element - if only you can tech against it. But some people do look at it that way.

It's very telling to me that the people that seem to despise the expose/data gathering play the most also seem to be the ones that see ambushes as too random and not efficient enough an investment.

>>51480691

I accidentally a bit '(or a change).

> but then hastening it would be too fast to the more casual crowd that still dabble in tournaments.

>>51476787

Blast Sphere
Jinteki
Ice - Code gate - AP
4 rez 1 strength

Whenever the Runner breaks all subroutines on Blast Sphere, you may uninstall and attach it to a piece of hardware as a condition counter with the text "when the runner's turn begin, do one net damage. The runner may trash the hosting card anytime to prevent that effect".

-> Deal 1 net damage

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Talking of ambushes, Replanting offers an interesting option for non-advance-able options.

>>51480691

I agree that the MWL moves at an awkward pace, but hopefully the wrinkles in it will be ironed out as time goes on. I mainly don't like ban lists because they just completely remove combo's and certain aspects of the game that people might like. I find that a bit disheartening and it really might splinter the community even more.

>>51482249
>Ban List
I agree. I much prefer erratas and reprints over complete bans.
Sifr becoming 'Take 1 Net Damage' instead of reducing hand size and bumping up it's influence up to 3 or 4 would make it a lot more reasonable imo

>>51482370

I definitely can live with the effect if they price it accordingly. The current hand size reduction is ridiculous. Hell, if the price is high enough, I can even live with the influence.

>>51480691
Yeah, I get the feeling the competitive crowd really want a ban list, or would at least be highly supportive of one, especially those that come from other games, but I much prefer MWL and eratta (Sifr I think/hope will get at least Museum/Net Pavilion levels of change) - I think bans are very heavy handed

I also think certain cards should go on and come off the MWL - Temujin probably should go on, despite what it does to crim, and I believe NAPD contract could come off just fine, for example

>>51482813

Honestly, I wouldn't mind if certain otherwise splashable/problematic cards be restricted to their original factions instead (like tem for crims for instance), although that leaves neutrals unaffected and anarchs still hideously strong even without certain imported cards.

Kinda sad looking at Vamadeva and Tracker side by side...

>>51477799
Am I retarded? I would have thought "all cards in in the server" would include the ice

>>51484043

Cards protecting the server are not considered in the server.
Important distinction too, upgrades installed in the root of a central server are not considered inside that server... which is why you can't remove an upgrade installed in Archives with Archives Interface, sadly.

Amusing interaction: Tracker/Bailiff.

>>51484125
>upgrades installed in the root of a central server are not considered inside that server
Huh, ok. Weird

>>51480645

Ah, but it tells you something else important. It can give you some insight into the Runner's running habits. Do they aggressively run your traps until they know you're playing traps? Do they hold off on running if they can't be sure they'll get in? If you let the card sit there will they get brave enough to sniff around the server later? Albeit you still have to take some risks, but it can give you some insight as to when you can risk laying down an Agenda. I've managed to sit an Agenda in a server letting the Runner think it was an ambush and spent a turn building my econ back up before scoring it. By all rights they easily could have run it and gotten in, but sitting on 3 brain damage makes you re-evaluate when it's worth it to take that risk.

>>51480691

Yeah, Expose doesn't get nearly the love it should. Honestly I kinda want to slot Lemuria Codecracker into my Sunny decks but it always suffers from "51st Card Syndrome" and I don't know a lot of other good expose effects for her. Infiltration's a one shot but I should probably give it more of a look despite that.

>>51482813

Sifr's already Unique. It's a Console.

>>51483870

Tracker is nice, but its 2mem, and can't combo with run events. Vama is not THAT bad if you are seeing mostly 1 subroutine ice, and you got other breakers for those it can't break anyway.

>>51484130

Looking back at the rules, I must say the wording *is* pretty confusing.

>Upgrades– An upgrade can be installed in any server. When an upgrade is installed in a central server, it is installed in the central server’s root.

That being said, my search-enginee-fu is weak, can't find back that ruling on Archives Interface.

>>51484250
>Vama is not THAT bad if you are seeing mostly 1 subroutine ice, and you got other breakers for those it can't break anyway.

It's just... 6 to install, subject to AI hate, need to pump strength.. has a lot going against it in the comparison.

>>51479902
The thing with the ban list that most keep advocating is that they usually feel like knee jerk reactions to cards to the newest 'sky is falling' cards, without letting them simmer for a while in the card pool as newer cards pop in or waiting for possible rulings or errata. It's pretty irritating to see the reddit posts that just can't appreciate that time is needed for the cards to balance themselves out, despite Netrunner being a "living" card game.

I'd be fine if the ban list is well thought out and does aim to improve the player experience on both sides, or hit cards that are well known to be problematic instead of just "no no this card is too strong, ban it", but given how hard Fastrobiotics can be nerfed with the limit 1 per deck errata, surely that's a healthier option to go to instead of straight bans.

>>51484395

Being expensive sucks, but it is otherwise an alright breaker when being used, and is a 1 mu counter to that accursed mother goddess all crims have problems dealing with otherwise.

>>51487801
Why is mother goddess a problem card for crims if they have inside job in faction?

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>>51484184
Hence wanting that "level of change" not asking for that change directly

>>51488020

While true, it's not always guaranteed to have desired results (esp for single accesses), and you can only use it so many times.

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Remember when this was the end of Netrunner?

>>51489995
No. It was never the end, just very confusing at first.

How different would the corp side be if in addition to the free card draw, they also gain 1 credit every turn?

>>51490092
It would be completely broken

>>51490114
Why?

>>51490130
Are you being serious? Have you even played netrunner?

>>51490139
Yes, I am being serious. For one, corp side investments are not only expensive (install costs, rez costs, advancement costs, click costs), they are also fleeting, and most are trashable by the runner. The credit each turn would help cut back on these costs, and promote healthier, more "Netrunner" styles of play. That said, "notrunner" play styles could still emerge, but the extra leeway in costs could steer players and designers away from things like asset spam (which was arguably born from ice being useless, and asset trashing as a tax being more effective).

Second, the Arkham Horror LCG uses this "1 credit, 1 card each turn" thing, and ending up with a surplus of credits still isn't common unless you weren't spending it on anything. By comparison, Corps need to spend money on everything. The free drip econ would pile up eventually, but that's only if the runner isn't proactive on attacking. Plus the extra credits can provide an out for a corp that's losing.

Third is for a more thematic reason. Are you telling me a *megacorp* wouldn't have money dripping in regularly without doing anything?

I've made my case, so I'd like to hear yours.

>>51490450

Another anon here, not strictly against, but just trying to voice the negative aspects I see from this:

First, just for perspective: your proposal basically adds to every ID a better EtF clause, and EtF is still considered the best HB ID and one of the best IDs in the game.

The whole point of early game aggression for the runner is to force the corp to spend on defenses while taking calculated risks to try and grab some agendas before defenses have been set up. But then corps live on credit, they only spend when they have to spend. And they chose when they do. The threat threshold of a corp can quickly spiral out of control for a face-checking runner if an untrashable PAD starts feeding it.

I think all anti-econ strategies that aren't Siphon spam would be hurt by this in a significant way.

Last, I'm thinking this could feed some pretty abusive FA/Rush strategies. The one difficulty for those is setting up and you're taking away a fair chunk of the work from their hands.

>>51490809
A straight port of the "1 credit, 1 card" rule into the current Netrunner would possibly be a bit much, even without including certain cards that can be very threatening to face check, the economy of Netrunner has always been balanced on a very thin line where a single credit can determine the outcome of a game.

That said, purely going speculatively, the Runner side could've developed in a way to take this into account. Ice destruction could've been equal or common to our current meta, but it would hurt less as corps would have the econ to fight it, treating ice as another expendable resource instead of the unmovable wall they're portrayed to be. Critical operations could fire more often instead of just during a game winning moment, with runner defenses adapting to match it. Anti-econ strategies could hit harder, denial plays could be more common to match the stronger FA/Rush possibilities. Rez and play costs could've been much different such that choosing when to spend is still important, the only difference is that the recovery could be a lot better.

I guess the most important part of this is that you get to increase that economy balancing line, which means more options and variations, which is always nice to have in a game. Atleast we already seem to be moving towards this though.

>>51488617

But what cold they *do* to it that wouldn't just be a rules nightmare?

>>51491355
>hand size is reduced by one until the end of the next runner turn
>Suffer 1 net damage
>encountered ice cannot be trashed
>whenever the runner uses an icebreaker to break subroutines on encountered ice, pay an additional 1 credit
>all the above

Plenty.

>>51491193
>treating ice as another expendable resource instead of the unmovable wall they're portrayed to be

That's what Aginfusion does. Which hints to me at the current re-balancing act going interesting ways in the near future. I am indeed very hype for Mars.

>Atleast we already seem to be moving towards this though.

That's what I was saying upthread talking about Sifr and the old anarch breaker suite cast shadow. Flashpoint definitely looks like Mr. Stone wants to rebalance things around that core to provoke a bit more diversity. Hopefully it works. Because I don't see your current proposition working well without a significant evolution of the card pool - that's where the change impetus has to come from.

>>51491553
It's really less of a "we need this feature right now" comment than it is wondering of things that could've been if it had been that way since the beginning, even if the current meta did give birth to the idea. But yeah, I'm optimistic for the next year or two, hopefully we don't get anymore meddling executives jumping in and changing cards. Have to wonder what Sifr looked like pre-"sexified" Unless the card is actually Aaron..

By the way, the new Jinteki ID seems to actually be AgInfusion, since Ag is a thing they mine I think.

>>51484159
>I don't know a lot of other good expose effects for her

There's always Deuces Wild

>>51472792

Damn sorry, totally forgot to answer that. If you can make your servers spiky enough to have it fire more often than not, I'd go with Subliminal, if not, old PAD is probably more reliable in the long run.

Still have a soft spot for Subliminal in an Indian Union Stock Exchange-based deck.

>>51491629
Ag is the element symbol for Silver

>>51491355
Make it preventable brain damage - there's a fair few cards to dodge brain in the pool now, it'd give things like ramujan a chance to shine.

Following the grand tradition of Stimhack, and to a lesser extent Amped Up and Stim Dealer

Or, seeing as Null loves zeros so much, go the Eater route and access 0 cards.

But I think something like net damage is more likely than any of those

>>51491752
>Or, seeing as Null loves zeros so much

I'm sad no one likes my idea of a temporary zero hand size.

>>51491788
I like that idea, but I think it leaves the runner just way too vulnerable, even with damage prevention.

I'd take it over what we have now though

>>51491788
Turns on Neural EMP too easily. I wouldn't be opposed to "trash your hand" instead of reducing hand size though, would atleast allow you to draw back up.

>>51491871
Neural Emp is already neutered by Feedback filter, so the runner can be prepared for it.
Also Drug Dealers would draw you during the Corp turn.

>>51491752

But that's going well past errata. Making WNP and Museum Unique didn't add or remove functions of the card, it just made it so you couldn't stack the effects. The errata to BoN didn't add or remove any functions to the card itself, it just changed *when* the trigger went off. If you wanted a Sifr errata then you don't just add whole lines of text. If anything it would be something to the effect of having the hand size reduction last till the end of your *next* turn which would have the overall effect of repeated uses keeping the Runner's max hand size st three while making it so that you'd have to go two full turns without using it to get back to 5.

>>51491980

Middle ground, one word edit, from

>you may reduce your maximum hand size by 1

to

>you may reduce your maximum hand size to 1

>>51491944
Guess you're right, atleast it would require the deck to be built around it. Now to find a way to get Enforced Curfew on the table during the runner's turn.

>>51491980
I don't get this reservation towards modifying the card text to change it's functionality. Sure most of the erratas has been simple and don't change the core of the card that much, but surely if that core itself is the main problem then there is a chance they would be willing to modify even that for the greater good. Heck, if you told anyone a few years back that Astroscript would be limited 1 per deck, probably no one would've believed you. What's to say a similarly hard hitting errata couldn't happen for Sifr?

>>51492110
Yeah, assuming Sifr is the card that Damon got overruled on that he can now take back to his bosses and say "Look! Look how fucking stupid your change was!" we might get a really significant errata to the way it works, like we did with Astro.

I like >>51492088 for how little change is needed to make such a big effect in the power

>>51492088

A bit... Further than I'd like to go but I suppose it does the trick while still being not-awkwardly worded. Poor nfr. I really want that card to have some spotlight time.

Ideally what I'd like to see is for it to reduce hand size by one more with each successive use such that they're slow to wear off so that the reduction still matters but it doesn't just flat out cripple you either, but that would be a nightmare to template.

>>51492538

Between NULL, Scrubbed, Sifr, Datasucker, Bishop, Ice Carver, Parasite and (good old) Wyrm, I'm not too worried about NFR.

The biggest issue is Sunya. Never getting its place in the sun as long as Mimic exists.

>>51492706
Sunya is interesting once you get 4 counters on it.
That's a lot though.

>>51492706

Well Anarchs at least have Cyberfeeder in faction to defray the cost. And the reason I like nfr/Sunya is that they aren't eternally dependent on Datasucker. I'm actually tempted to make a deck featuring them sans Sucker. Still on the fence about Parasite. I'd rather just run Cutlery for problem ICE but I personally have had the worst luck trying to play Cutlery myself.

In the nfr front, I like that the inclusion of more and more barriers with teeth somewhat changes the risk dynamic in face checking with it.

You can't just prepare for sentries/code gates and plan to bounce unscathed of barriers at worse anymore. You have to account for being hit.

>>51494554
Well, not that I disagree but we had Wall of Thorns in core along with the Heimdalls, and then during Lunar Galahad had some nasty surprises for us.

>>51494617

Oh definitely, but more options means less chance to ignore the issue as an outlier threat.

Kinda like the Nero problem with more mean code gates in the pool.

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Couple days back I read the logs from the actual old Netrunner Worlds Championship, with players playing through IRC and the judge serving the cards through whispers.
Good stuff.

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>>51496973

Those were the times... people too easily crying the "degenerate" wolf should go have a look at the banned builds of the rime.

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>>51497390
A 3/3? Good lord.

>>51491629
>the new Jinteki ID seems to actually be AgInfusion, since Ag is a thing they mine I think
From what I've read - there's a very brief mention in WoA - and in a few other things, it's Ag[ricultural] Infusion - they're one of Jinteki's big concerns on Mars, mainly centred around farming.
They're not well-liked, as many of their products are terminator seeds - an IRL thing, where the plants don't produce viable seeds, so you have to buy new ones from the agricorp.

So basically they're pretty close to being Jinteki's Monsanto, helped by the fact they (like all the corps on Mars) are a long way from home and things like oversight

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That's why I couldn't remember the name...

Anyway, on for a short retrospective.

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>Play only if you made a successful run on HQ this turn. Pay the rez cost of a piece of rezzed ice to trash it.

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>Play only if you made a successful run on HQ this turn. Trash a piece of unrezzed ice.

Forged activation Order existed too. ICE destruction in its own way.

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>>51499752
Oof, 3 tags. Rough, but fair.

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>Trash: Pay the rez cost of a piece of ice to trash that piece of ice. Use this ability only if you have just broken all the subroutines of that piece of ice.

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Central version

>Play only if you made a successful run on a data fort this turn. Trash all rezzed ice on that fort, and the Corp gives you three tags.

Unless I'm forgetting one, I think that's it for ICE destruction in ONR.

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Well, I guess technically, this counts...(just imagine this introduced with a PSI in ANR...)

That's one hell of travel down memory lane. Had forgotten couple of those.

>>51491629
>pre sexified Sifr
My guess is it did net damage. Maybe higher influence cost too.

>>51499928
That purge blurb doesn't even matter since the card uses Doom counters instead of Virus. What did corp side have to defend against ice trashing?

>>51500125
I have a feeling that the sexified bit was the reduce to 0 part, I can see someone changing it to that purely for a thematic reason. Probably might've been closer to Null's ability otherwise.

>>51501694
What do you suppose it would've done instead?

>>51501780
Maybe reduce to 2 instead of 0? That way you could use Null's ability to make it go down all the way. Or just a staight copy of Null's ability and reduce hand size by 1 to reduce strength by 2, repeatable.

>>51500125

The main users are still anarchs though, since many shapers would prefer astro, and crims usually go with desp

>>51502145
I dunno, Shapers can get a lot of work out of SMC/Clone Chip and Parasite + Sifr

>>51502194

True enough, even if that package does take up about half of their total influence. Even zee Professor can use it (as a one-of).

What's an out when you're up against a Midseasons deck and you don't have Film Critic in your deck, or can't keep up economically?

>>51504718
Play Kim

>>51504718
Don't steal agendas.

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>>51504718
Depends, are they killing you, or fucking you up with things like closed accounts and best defence, maybe scoring with psycho?

Funnily enough I'd say murder is much easier to play around these days

>>51504825
Slotting 3-of Credit Crash now, thanks.

>>51504828
Makes me wonder if there's a way to turn on mill in Criminal, though probably not. Something to trigger an RnD shuffle after CBI Raid would be nice though, besides Keyhole.

>>51504884
Mostly looking for general advice, just realized that my deck relies on never getting tagged, and in certain match ups where it will invariably be tagged, I don't really have an out. Most plays I've seen is just going fast before something bad hits though, or recovering after using up all credits on the trace.

>>51505021
Secretly sleeve Paper Tripping.

>>51504718
>or can't keep up economically?

a) Keep up economically. (including high Link play)
b) Aaron Marron.
c) On the Lam

>Makes me wonder if there's a way to turn on mill in Criminal

That's the whole point of Fisk. Trouble is Jackson single-handedly kills his whole strategy. Still a very fun deck to play.

>>51505573
On the Lam is basically banking 3 credits for the tags, and turning on Aaron requires either a score by the corp or a steal, which turns on Midseasons anyway. Outside of Blue Sun Criminals can economically keep up, but I'm not sure how you could do it while getting points. This is without getting into Reversed Accounts shenanigans and getting through Blue Sun's huge ice (ignore Sifr for now).

>>51505858
>Aaron requires either a score by the corp or a steal, which turns on Midseasons anyway

Yup, but then it means you can take up to two tags for free on that Midseason trace (with some draw to boot to tip the scale even more to your side, making things harder for a corp kill - if you had 5 cards in hand, you're now at 7... BOOM! alone can't kill you)). More if you managed to steal other agendas before, or some were scored. That's not insignificant.

>On the Lam is basically banking 3 credits for the tags

Yup, same as if you had 3 credits in the bank for the trace, only they can't Closed/Reversed account it. And you can prevent damage to boot if you think that's better spent that way.

>This is without getting into Reversed Accounts shenanigans and getting through Blue Sun's huge ice

Partly what Link play is for. It's money saved per trace the corp can't take form your credit pool.

>>51506005
Ok, so Aaron's great if you have him early (including vs other decks), On the Lam can help with tags and damage, and link play will lessen the blow from any trace the corp throws. Can I interpret that as "if you don't have these defenses built into your deck already, you're boned" then?

>>51506310

Well, I'm guessing you're mostly talking a Blue Sun build here. If you don't want to go silver bullet (ie Film Critic) there's only two solutions: what you want is either to keep the econ balance in your favor, or neuter the effects of whatever threats the tagging enables.

Derezzing/trashing ICE would help. Aggressive anti-econ solutions would help (if only a well placed Siphon).

Conversely, the other way round, keeping a strong board would help (as per the other recommendations).

>>51506471
Yeah, taking the econ balance does seem to be the best strategy here. Plus if it's a kill deck they'll likely use Boom, so I can go hard looking for it and trashing it, and Psycho decks can probably be slightly neutered by chipping away the tags. Thanks for the advice, I'll keep them in mind.

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>>51505021
Fisk Mill is kinda hard to do - it's not hugely well supported, and if you just try and do it as a pure strategy it'll likely just end up helping the corp - but it's pretty good when combined with other criminal denial tech - being forced to draw a load of cards that you can't pay for is pretty rough.

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>>51510527
Will Fisk be viable after Red Sands?

>>51510527
>>51510948
Find the Truth and Equivocation are pretty good for Fisk atleast, faced a friend that had FtT installed, I imagine my face must've been something when he Dieseled into 2 Investment Seminars. Fun deck even as the opponent.

That said, I really only wanted something to follow up CBI Raid as a defensive play. Both Anarch and Shaper had ways to trigger an RnD shuffle, but Criminals don't.

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>>51510948
Who knows?
Maybe Fisk Investments Inc. has some big stuff going on on Mars?
I'd certainly like to see more of Fisk's company - I wonder what the best way to do Fisk-themed cards that also fit for other crims, and runners in general?

Complete newcomer here, me and my friend have the base game and the first expac.
What do I look for when deckbuilding? Also, I play the industry guys and I get my ass kicked literally all the time, what are some basic tips? It seems hard to protect everything at once

>>51512487

Industry guys... HB?

Bioroids are a tough learn. Porous by design but pretty good return on investment as taxation. Optimally what you want is to be able to stack them.

Learn to respect the power of Accelerated Beta Test + Biotic Labor (ie for 7 credits you can install and score the agenda the very same turn, so called "fast advance" strategy... meaning you don't even need a protected remote.

>It seems hard to protect everything at once

You pretty much can't do that. Learning to juggle with acceptable risks margin is the name of the game.

Generally speaking, you'll want R&D protected sooner than later. That's where the bulk of your agendas are - most of the time. But then depending on the runner, the priorities may switch - you certainly don't want to leave your HQ open to Santiago/criminals.

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>>51512487
>I play the industry guys
HB (purple) or Weyland (teal/green) ?

The most important lesson for new corp players is what >>51512756 says - you basically can't protect everything at once, and you can't keep the runner out forever.

Acceptable risks, bluffs and making windows to score are probably the most important part of the corp game.

>>51510948

I don't know that he'll ever be good enough for the competitive crowd unless some cool support is released (*cough* cockroach *cough*) but then I do think right now he's better than he's ever been (with Equivocation, Find the Truth and importantly Rumor Mill to slap Howard in the face he can be pretty scary - also Information Sifting for awesome points).

Generally speaking, from hopping between several micro-communities, what I learned is that he is pretty decent where people don't automatically pack 3 Howards.

With Howard disappearing, and fairer, better balanced replacements taking his place I'm thinking he'll be in a spot that is pretty playable and enjoyable, even if never really "tier 1".

>>51512756
>>51512889
I meant corp in general, Ive tried multiple things but I've had the most success with ice-stacking haas bioroid.
The thing is, when I dont protect HQ/RD he just runs and runs and scores agendas and wins (literally how I lost 90% of my games). But when I dont, I need an insane time to get my agendas up and running and in that time he also built up and justs breaks everything easily.
Beta Test + Biotic Labor is a nice tip tho, thanks

>>51512756

Another thing to keep in mind: I find the core set *slightly* favors the runner to help people learn to play the game (if the runner is too afraid and static, nothing happens, and there's hardly any game going on).

If, as the corp, you find you're pretty tight econ-wise, it's perfectly normal. Especially as Jinteki. Just a way to force you to learn and bite the bullet. Make the tough choices.

A good thing to learn is you don't need to rez everything at once. keep money in the bank, let your threat threshold rise.
The difficulty is learning when and how much to spend to tax the runner (one way or another) and when to keep building up.

>>51512487
Check the list of common mistakes for newcomers, just in case.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Netrunner/comments/2f8qj8/netrunner_beginner_faq/

>>51512991

Fast Advance is a pretty powerful strategy in core.

NBN is the master of that game with AstroScript Pilot Program - a card that look innocuous at first sight but is so powerful it had to be errata-ed as unique for tournament purpose as any copy of the car makes the following fast-advance-able, Breaking News which you can also fast advance, and the support of SanSan City Grid, which makes any 3-to-score agenda fast-advance-able.

Pretty much can play the game without depending on a scoring remote.

Then there's Weyland. Pay close attention to how different their agenda composition is compared to other factions. Given the limited damage protection in Core, there's one card you should look up for the big W: Scorched Earth. It defines the faction. Teach your opponent to fear that card.
A common rookie mistake is dying early game to a SEA Source + Scorched Earth combo. Many people at first find it random. It's not. It teaches the runner respect. Teaches to go slower. To count one's credits and the corp's. And to keep enough cards in hand to survive.

Out of core, I think Jinteki is probably the hardest to learn. You need to teach the runner to fear your servers, while still being proactive about it. You're the micro-aggression to Weyland's ballsy threats. I think it's one of the most fun too, but no one card defines it like Weyalnd. Remember you need to sit on money for you threats to be credible. Snare: is a very powerful card - one you'll learn to love an fear as you play more. It's threatening form any server but Archives - a runner could go at it on your unprotected R&D and hit it - but you need four credits in the bank at least to activate. Your threat threshold needs to be credible, as I like to say.
Pay also close attention to Nisei MkII. The ability to stop any one run at any time you want is very powerful. It will win you games.

>>51513027
>>51513229
>>51513333
thanks guys!
NBN wonders me, so far I just thought it was shit because you just mark the runner and then do nothing with it, I'll look into that fast advance stuff.
Youre true with Weyland, Scorched Earth was immediatly one of the "oh shit" cards but so far Ive never really managed to make it work.
A Jinteki variant is what I currently play (after failing miserably with HB, altough it was pretty fun) but I dont know, I just dont really like it.

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>>51513617
>you just mark the runner and then do nothing with it
Do you know about Influence?
I can't recall how well it's covered in the rules.

But yeah, early in the game's life tagging outside of a kill was pretty lame - it's much less so now (though kills are still a popular use of tags)

>>51513766
Well I still only have the core set + the first pack, so I guess I'd splash scorched earth and a few other cards but it never seemed like an actual solid deck. Maybe I should give it a go, together with fast advancing

Is it just me, or does Blacklist seem really strong with all these recursive Icebreakers (Paperclip, etc) and Clone Chip Parasites bouncing around?

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>>51513617
>you just mark the runner and then do nothing with it
Yeah, the lack of options for tag punishment was a problem for the archetype, which is why everyone focused on fast advance.
Here's a list of what you can do with that tag using core cards:

>Trash a Resource.
Relevant targets include Armitage Codebusting, Wyldside, Bank Job, Crash Space and Aesop's Pawnshop.

>Scorched Earth
Weyland's trademark and NBN splash during deckbuilding. Usually played in doubles for a SEA Source, Scorched Earth, Scorched Earth turn.
Also useful with Posted Bounty.

>Closed Account
Oh, so you didn't want to spend your credits to avoid the SEA Source tag?
Puff! All gone.

>Psychographics
If you manage to place more than 1 tag on the Runner you can Fast Advance certain cards. With 5 you get a Priority Requisition!

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>>51513908
Yes, if you can protect it. Blocking a Paperclip out with Vanilla is awesome.

>>51513916
Alright thanks you convinced me, will try out that next time

>>51513949
Yeah, you've got to be able to protect it, but slapping an cheap ETR in front of it when their breaker is in the bin seems super powerful.
Plus, even if they don't have their breakers in the bin, rezzing it at the start of a run against a Sifr Parasite deck could really throw the runner off, and potentially allow you to trigger some nasty subroutines they thought they could break.