/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

First

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Last time I'm going to be posting this without being specifically requested to. Don't want to become That Guy. Plus I'm working on some new stuff anyway...

It's done. The Vampire Monster Manual. 108 pages worth of generic NPCs for you to throw at the peons who show up to your games. I mean the player troupe. Whatever.

56 Clan vampires, 18 Bloodline vampires, 17 ghouls, 17 other supernaturals, 29 mortals, and 23 animals. A total of 160 NPCs, suitable for any chronicle taking place in the modern day.

Remember that these are meant to be generic things to throw at your troupe, NOT a replacement for hand-crafting a character for your chronicle yourself. The Prince and Primogen and so on of your main city should be made to your specifications. But when your chucklefuck players decide that, no, they don't want to stay in Boston, they really do need to go over to Worcester for God knows what reason. Or start a fight with the pizza delivery guy that they themselves called over to their lair. Or whatever.

Enjoy!

THIS IS FOR YOU, /TG/. I DID IT ALL FOR YOU.

They featured as antagonists with strange motivations my players couldn't fathom.

It didn't matter about themes when the players were just trying to stay alive.

>>51403867
>How often do you actually cross over splats in your games?

As far as /CofD/ is concerned, I love the interplay between Vampire and Changeling. They have some similar themes and structures with just enough differences to cause uneasy alliances and palpable tension.

>>51403948

Can I suck your dick now?

>>51403948
I don't suppose you have a Random City Generator (TM) lying around, do you?

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Which arcana should I use to craft my own magical piss forest?

>>51403986

I know the answer. But I don't want to type it in. For obvious reasons.

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>>51403948
Incidentally, here's a sample of that new thing I'm working on to which I alluded - Clanbook: Caitiff. The intent is to make a full Clanbook, in the vein of the ones published for VtM. Since it won't have internal art, it'll probably run about 50 pages. Planned highlights:

- Vampire history as seen through the eyes of the lowest dregs of society
- Caitiff views on the various Clans.
- Caitiff organizations and groups, including details on the Panders
- Write-ups and stats for major known Caitiff characters, both official (Stone Man, Mukhtar Bey) and unofficial that I'll be making up for the book (Adrienne Molyneux, from the intro story)
- 10 or so sample Caitiff character concepts, with full write ups and character sheets
- Several new Disciplines out to 5 dots, for Caitiff who are inceptors. Mostly this will be stuff converted from Vampire: the Requiem.

Wish me luck!

>>51403986
While you could do it with Arcana, why not just hijack a Changeling's already existing magical piss forest hollow?

>>51403971
Well, did post it in a previous thread. Here's a link to the post, should still be good.

>>51386260

>>51404017
Good luck, man! It looks like a worthy project.

>>51404030
>>51403948

These really should be placed in the MEGA for future generations to enjoy.

Is this thread going to be mage or vampire shitposting?


Why can't we have a good old fashioned 'oWoD was better' thread?

>>51404029
Because a true Whizzard creates his own magical realm.

>>51404061
What really needs to happen is more WoD folk homebrewing stuff so as to justify a space in the MEGA. Classic, Chronicles, whatever.

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>>51404073
We could do werewolf shitposting instead if you like, I'll start

The Uratha are more interesting in concept and more compelling in execution than the Garou ever were

>>51404073

Because wizards with sparkling beards are better than gross smelly leeches.

How is this so hard to understand?

>>51403986
Life is all you need

>>51404073
No, because any shitposting will be reported.

Some players prefer vampires, some players prefer mages. Archmages are very powerful because Masters of the Art was the Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand all over again. That is the sum of it, and nothing more needs to be said.

>>51404140

I would rather discuss gay werewolves than shitpost about them.

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>>51404140
That isn't a shitpost. Its absolutely and unequivocally true.

>>51403986
Life and Forces.
>>51404017
Looking forward to it. This and homebrew beetle Fera that actually sound cool. What a time to be alive.

>>51404190

>Implying reporting does anything at all

>>51404140
>My Opinion: an editorial

Just don't.

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>>51404193
Litany don't say nothin' bout buttfuckin'

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>>51404190
Who the fuck made you king of this thread. How the fuck are you qualified to say what kind of posting or discussion is or isn't allowed. Such hubris reminds me of
>MAGE SUPREMACY

>>51404140
I've not read anything about the Uratha past a few bits and pieces to steal tracking mechanics for other games.
How do they differ from WtA wolves other than the obvious lack of meta-plot?

>>51404218
I know it does, because I copped a 24 hour ban once for posting the unedited picture of the Horned God from CofD's Changing Breeds book, all 18 inches of him. The mods can't be everywhere at once.

Bare minimum it hides the offensive post, so your eyes can parse the thread without having to see such feebleminded blithering.

>>51404203
So is mages being powerful, but that doesn't stop people from shitposting about it

No but seriously WtF nails down the dual nature thing so much better than WtA, down to Harmony working differently than Humanity or Wisdom or Clarity does. You want to stay in the middle, not be at the top.

>>51404252
You mean you actually broke the rules by posting NSFW images explicitly forbidden on blue boards. That has nothing to do with the offense you take at literally every meme /wodg/ has.

>>51404236
>Who the fuck made you king of this thread.

More the Monitor, really.

> How the fuck are you qualified to say what kind of posting or discussion is or isn't allowed.

I bothered to read the global rules, like the home page asks you to before posting? There's no need to be so upset. Just follow the rules and you'll be fine.

>>51404140
>>51404203
Here's how to really shitpost.

I don't know why the Pure are portrayed as the bad guys. I mean sure, the Fire-touched are a little out there, but there's nothing wrong with the Ivory Claws and Predator Kings. Killing Father Wolf was a mistake and humanity needs to be put in its place.

>>51404304
>>51404259
>Claims to have read the global rules.
>Posted porn on a blue board.

>>51404304

Calm down, ma'am. You need to breathe.

>>51404304
>Monitor
That is the mod's job not yours
>I read the rules
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean its agaisnt the rules
>#MAGE SUPREMACY

>>51404290
That wasn't the question posed by his post. He pointed out that there was no point in reporting rules violations because reporting does nothing. I cited personal experience where it did, because someone reported me for breaching the rules.

Shitposting is not a meme. Derailing threads is not a meme. Acting like every thread on every board is /b/ is not a meme. The global rules are very clear on what is and is not acceptable.

Memes are for people too pathetic to think of anything original, anyway. Any phrase repeated often enough becomes nonsensical garbage.

>>51404330
Yes, why do you think I had to read them?

>>51404229
Those are some impressive nipples.

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>>51404359

>>51404359

You are so fucking bitter.

>>51404372
Obviously because you are too retarded to even understand them. One ban and you become the butthurt brigade ruining conversations that you claim are derailed because they didn't go how you want.

>>51404259
Harmony was definitely my favorite morality mechanic in 2e.

>>51404249
Werewolf the Apocalypse is about a bunch of genocidal maniacs fighting a company that wants to destroy the world like a fucking Captain Planet villain and no one wants to help them because they tried to kill the rest of the Fera in their hubris.

Forsaken is like playing a gang member who has to protect their turf from various supernatural and mundane threats and fulfill a compulsive urge to hunt.

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>>51404249
They all come from humans, and as of 2e technically anyone could become a werewolf, as a Dramatic Failure to resist Lunacy turns a mortal into a Wolf-Blooded, and who the fuck knows how Luna chooses which Wolf-Blooded to make into full-blown werewolves. Beyond that they're far more akin to classic werewolf archetypes than Garou. As they grow more powerful they're more prone to the Death Rage, both triggering it and how long it lasts. Their diet becomes more and more restrictive as well, starting with no restrictions, then meat, then raw meat, then raw carnivore meat, then only the stuff of spirits will give them nourishment. (Though they can always resort to cannibalism, that shit always works) Their morality/integrity stat is unique in the way it works too. The ideal Harmony score is five: perfectly balanced between flesh and spirit. Their hybrid form, Gauru, is limited in use; they can only go full werewolf once per scene, for a limited number of turns. Unless they give in to rage and murder fucking everything. And they still kick ass in Gauru. They heal all non-aggravated damage every turn, get huge stat boosts, and force low-power mooks to use Down and Dirty combat rules against them, which they'll probably lose.

As for the meta, well, it's all about the hunt. Werewolves have to hunt, it's in their blood, it's in their soul. They hunt humans that threaten their territory. They hunt spirits who cross over from the Shadow. They hunt other werewolves. The focus shifts from "be nice to the forest spirits because it's what Gaia wants" to "keep the asshole forest spirits in line by tearing them apart and devouring them."

>>51404401
While being Captain Planet doesn't sound like horror, it does sound like more fun.

>>51404401
You also forgot that the Uratha has to do all these things while still maintaing balance between the spiratual and human sides.

>>51404388
Doesn't stop me. Won't stop me. None of you can stop me. I'm never going away. I outlived Aspel, I outlived the edition wars and I'll be helping the Mods with reporting violations long after you turn 18 and leave the website. I don't sleep. I don't eat. I sustain myself entirely from your tears. Get over it.

SO! Let's talk about 5th Edition Vampire. Are we looking forward to it, or have the teasers so far filled people with a sense of dread?

>>51404420
He's selling the concept short a little bit. Territory is important to werewolves, but they don't just run people off, they hunt down rogue spirits that have crossed over from the Shadow.

>>51404417
I thought Uratha were forbidden from killing humans and other werewolves?

>>51404401
Yeah, but it's all about the hunt. Like literally, that's all it's about. It doesn't lend itself to the same layered conflicts that Apocalypse did.

Also, Apocalypse wasn't limited to Pentex as villains. There were spiritual enemies, tribe politics, mortal hunters as well as spirits belonging to the other two members of the Triat to contend with. Weaver minions could be just as lethal, if not more so...

>>51404460

>5th Edition Vampire

I'm lookin' forward alright. Yessireeeee. Some brand new lawn chairs for meeeeeee.

>>51404478
No, they're forbidden from eating the flesh of humans and werewolves, though they do it sometimes in the same way vampires sometimes commit Diablerie.

Murdering the shit out of almost everything but your packmates is just par for the course for Uratha.

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>>51404460
Yeah 5 edition is ok but vamps still can't do shit against a mage with a little bit of preparation

>>51404480
Apocalypse was pretty much "fight the Wyrm" and that's it. Pentex is the Wyrm. Black Spiral Dancers are the Wyrm. Fomori are the Wyrm. Fuck, they even think Kindred are Wyrm servants.

All that shit you listed is still in Forsaken, but they feel more like rage-driven monsters constantly stretched between two worlds than a bunch of furry eco-terrorists.

>>51404460

You're probably worse than Aspel at this point, to be honest.

And that's the worst insult an Anon can give

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>>51404460
Yes! Lets talk about how even in 5th edition kindred are still nothing more than lawn decorations to any competant mage!

>>51404501
So? No crossover, no problem.

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Mages are Supremely cute

>>51404359
Notice how people are having a concurrent discussion about Werewolves without your narkiness? You're not some godsend, dumbass.

>>51404546

There you are, Thyrsus cutie! You're always so elusive.

>>51404522
I don't think we read the same book.

There were tribal politics, story hooks suggesting the Weaver was actually the Big Bad, conflicts against humanity that didn't involve the Wyrm, human hunters, Mages, Wraiths and all the denizens of the spirit world. It was possible to run entire stories that didn't feature The Wyrm. It was a major element, but far from the only element. Hell, the rulebook explicitly calls them "rage driven monsters constantly stretched between two worlds" AS WELL AS "furry eco-terrorists", albeit not in as many words.

>>51404522
>but they feel more like rage-driven monsters constantly stretched between two worlds
soo basically WtA again.

>>51404571
I know you probably grew up with apocalypse and love it but that shit is beyond campy and edgy. Not only that but the whole poison ivy/fern gully metaplot is lame as hell.

>>51404527
>>51404552

I can't stress this enough: I don't care what you think. Just discuss nicely and I won't have to click the report button. Problem solved. You're only getting shitty because you're genuinely afraid that someone is going to notice your bullshit and kick-ban you. Not. My. Problem.

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>>51403867
So what lets me Be this badass. Mage or vampire

also what gen(OWOD) is picture related and clan

>>51404600

>Afraid

Try me. You disgusting sack of lard.

I'm trying to make a magic proximity mine. The idea is to hang a spell and anchor it to a rune. Then I'll stick a conditional to release the spell if the rune array is disturbed.

Sound reasonable?

>>51404610

Alucard is a good example of a greater Methuselah or a lesser Antediluvian.

>>51404600
stop being a faggot.

>>51404610
Alucard knockoffs are a dime a dozen. You'll officially be 'that guy' if you tried it.

>>51404597
>beyond campy and edgy.

So is the entire World of Darkness! You're playing the wrong games, buddy.

>Not only that but the whole poison ivy/fern gully metaplot is lame as hell.

(In your "humble" opinion)

The environment is endangered more now than when the books were first written. At this point man-made climate change is almost irreversible. Species are dying off in a Mass Extinction, and we're too busy obsessing as a species over the fucking Kardashians to even notice. These themes are more relevant than ever, even if - I'll say this politely - they aren't to your personal taste.

>>51404610
Gen 0 since he is far beyond Caine the memelord. You have to play mage to make anything close to as badass Alucard is.

>>51404610
Alucard would be a special snowflake 1 gen vampire (sort of like Rasputin) because he was cursed independently from Caine.

>>51404633
i don't want his personally but his power

>>51404249

Very different game tones and themes. Anyone claiming that Forsaken executes Apocalypse's themes 'better' is a liar or a moron, or both.

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>>51404644
>he believes in the enviromental jew

>>51404644
>These themes are more relevant than ever
That doesn't mean they are handled well by Apocalypse.

>>51404571
I've had WtA on my bookshelf since the nineties, dude, and while you could run into Weaver or Wyld spirits or mundane threats or mages or whatever, the primary focus was always fighting against the Wyrm.

As for the rage-driven dualistic monsters thing, the rules of Forsaken absolutely beat the shit out of Apocalypse in that department. In Apocalypse you had no reason not to spend every combat that isn't with humans in Crinos. Fuck, most of the time you can get away with Crinos vs. humans if there's no cameras around. By contrast, Forsaken limits use of Gauru (unless you don't care about collateral damage) and gives you lots of mechanically-reinforced reasons to act like a werewolf in the form of Harmony and Primal-Urge.

>>51404648

I never considered Alucard to be badass. He's just your typical anime Mary Sue. Or a Gary Stu if you're gender sensitive.

Antediluvians are far more extensive in scope compared to the guy. He is nowhere near Cain, who is in turn nowhere near the universe busting Archmages and the stronger things they can evolve into.

But do what you want. This is your story.

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>>51404664
I know where you can go back to.

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>>51404597

>pulp and camp is bad
>having a sense of humor or being earnest at all is bad
>everything needs to be LE TWISTS and 'deep, thoughtful introspective work'

>>51404670

>he fell for the Crinos meme

Hispo master race

>>51404496
It's a lot less rare than Diablerie. For one thing, Frenzy never drives a vampire to Diablerie. Werewolves in Kuruth will eat what they have to to refuel.

>>51404693
Alucard's power actually serves a purpose in the narrative though. He wants to be killed by a human and thus prove humanity superior to monsters, but he's grown so powerful he can't get the ending he desires. I can understand if that isn't your cup of tea, but if Alucard was weaker than Hellsing wouldn't work.

>>51404618
It's a bit convoluted, but sure.
Why not just set a Fate trigger as "anyone I haven't invited"?
Easier, and harder to circumvent.
As it is now, they HAVE to disturb the runes for it to trigger.

>>51404795
I kind of want to pull the "I prepared explosive runes" gag.

>>51403867
Almost never, mostly due to power levels.

>>51404817
Well. If you do connect it to runes, just be aware that most likely you'll be making it harder for it to trigger.

>>51404697
Having a sense of humour is one thing, being silly is another.

Apocalypse's main themes make it close to impossible to run any serious games in it.

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>>51404846

>Apocalypse's main themes make it close to impossible to run any serious games in it.

Yet people have been doing it for years...

Maybe you should, I don't know, try to stop being an underage faggot?

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>>51404846

>I need Mature Games for Mature Gamers, such as Myself

>>51404869
Yeah we get that your a fucking treehugging furry fucking fuck

>>51404869
If people are successfully doing serious Apocalypse games it's despite the themes of the game, not because of them.

>>51404885
If I want silly games I go play Paranoia. I don't go to WoD for silly.
Sadly, apart from Masquerade, they all are.

>>51404827

My idea power level set up and splats, if you mixed owod and nwod, is something like..

Masquerade - Awakening - Apocalypse - Lost - Fallen - Vigil - No one cares abbut Promethean or Mummy

>>51404869
>>51404885
Owodfags are the most oversensitive and defensive fanboys on the planet. Like seriously get over yourselves.

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>>51404893
>>51404896
>>51404914

So what does Caine want? Does he have a goal or something?

Why hasn't he killed the third gen WMDs? Does he want them to fuck shit up?

>>51404963

To fuck with his childer because they're autistic morons and assholes who killed the only dudes and ladies he ever liked.

>>51404963
Caine was turned into a lawn chair by a bored Archmaster.

>>51404963

Cain is a pretty chill dude.

>>51404973

Yeah, pretty much.

>>51404846
Oh okay, how many video games are they making out of Forsaken again?

>>51405100

Eleventeen

>>51404986

>you will never run/play a chronicle where the party, lucifer, and caine save the world

Would probably be retarded but I like retarded games.

>>51404973
Protean 10, turned back, ate the Archmaster.

Next.

Now that the dust has settled, will you pledge your support for the Tremere?

>>51405132

I found the biased Cain fuckboi

Next

>>51405160
Fuck off

>>51405132
Lawn chairs aren't conscious. Therefore Cain can't change back.

Next

>>51404963
>So what does Caine want?

To be left alone. Possibly to die, but he hasn't figured out how to kill himself yet. He's too arrogant a bastard to realize that what he needs to do is ask forgiveness for killing Abel, or at least admit that he was mistaken.

Also he likes taxis and taxi-related things.

>Why hasn't he killed the third gen WMDs?

Because he can't be bothered. They can't possibly harm him, and if they start causing too much trouble for the world at large he'll go and fix things, all the while grumbling about the fact that everyone else was apparently too incompetent to do the job themselves.

I'm not even kidding about that, by the way, it was right in "Fair is Foul" in Gehenna. Caine's main view when he shows up someplace to deal with something is that it's a huge waste of his time and energy, but he'll do it anyway because SOMEONE has to and apparently the rest of the World of Darkness is too incompetent.

>Does he want them to fuck shit up?

No, but he expects that there are people who can take care of this so that he doesn't have to. He hates the Antediluvians, but not enough to want to kill them unless they start seriously fucking shit up.

>>51405223
Why does he hate the third-genners?

>>51405241
They killed the 2 gen which he loved like how the ps3 killed the ps2

>>51405253
Go back to /v/ you maggot

>>51405193
He who striketh Caine shall himself be struck seven times. I don't find it illogical at all to assume that he who would casteth a spell upon Caine shall himself have a spell casteth upon him seven times, turning the would-be blasphemer into an entire patio set, presumably. And then God turns Caine back into a vampire.

Remember: the sevenfold curse isn't a metaphysical property of Caine. It's God saying that if anyone tries to do anything to Caine, God will himself intervene and wreck the person who tries.

No Archmage in Mage can be demonstrated to have surpassed God, or even come close. Masters of the Art even specifically goes out of its way to say that Archmages are not gods and are merely "godlike" and "demigods" who "under certain conditions" could be seen as gods.

>>51404741
I've always preferred having hands.

>>51405269
And yet as was proven in the other thread, Mage 20 clearly defined "God" as a greater divinity and tells the ST that in Mage the status of "God" is up to you, and can range from "Big Spirit" to "The Almighty from religion"

>>51405223

I appreciate your work but please take off your name unless you're posting about it.

>>51405193
That's not what the rulebook says. The rules are very clear on this. You'd know that if you ever bothered to read them.

>>51405223
>Caine fucked up, got his ass cursed for it and probably needs to repent and kiss ass
>average joe gets unwillingly embraced and gets the cursed for doing literally nothing wrong
So what's the justification for every Kindred after Caine?

>>51405269

>No Archmage in Mage can be demonstrated to have surpassed God, or even come close

Where have you been for the past ten threads? This was already discussed. Depending on the specific capabilities of the specific Archmage, they may indeed be on the same level as God.

Not to mention they might have imagined existence into being, according to Masters of the Art on two occasions.

The curse is also by definition the power of God. Not Cain. This doesn't exclude him from being weaker than any given greater Archmage.

>>51405289

A very good point. God is as powerful as M20 deems him to be. Sure, it goes against Masquerade, but it's still canon.

>>51405304
The same reason humans suffer for Adam and Eve's folly

>>51405299

Nope. No brains no consciousness. Science.

>>51405289
Sure, but no canonical Mage has ever surpassed God in any case, and there's no reason to think that God's own power is static and unchanging, either.

>>51405304
Different moral standards 6,000-ish years ago. It was perfectly acceptable to curse someone and their family out to many generations back in the day. Also there's the "Caine is a selfish bastard" part. He is not a nice person, he's just generally not actively malevolent.

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>>51405358

>>51405372
>Sure, but no canonical Mage has ever surpassed God in any case

Masters of the Art literally gives you abilities capable of creating and ending entire universes. That's God materiel. They can also become gods rivaling himself depending on various source material.

>>51405372
>Le Christianity is true and my god is the one true god meme
We've had like 14 threads of this shit getting shot down, maybe more. The IRL bible and its shtick about god being all powerful isn't cannon to WoD in anyway.

>>51405409

The Judeo-Christian God is clearly a canon entity in oWoD.

>>51405438
And Thor is canon in Marvel comics. That doesn't mean they're the same character as the version from religion.

Why would you assume Christianity is literally true in a setting where the gods of every other religion are real too?

Being canon =/= Being scripturally canon

>>51405269

>Masters of the Art even specifically goes out of its way to say that Archmages are not god

Not true. You mixed various pages into a single page when you demonstrated your purported "proof". It was not good evidence then, and it's not going to be good evidence now.

But why do you care so much?

>>51405406
>Masters of the Art literally gives you abilities capable of creating and ending entire universes

No CANONICAL mage, as I said. As in, name for me the published mage character with abilities that make him stronger than God.

>>51405409
>The IRL bible and its shtick about god being all powerful isn't cannon to WoD in anyway.

It MIGHT NOT be, but any discussion that includes Caine actually existing must by necessity have it be canon, because we're dealing with actual Cain, who slew actual Abel, and lived through the actual Flood, and so on.

Or in other words I reject the notion that anything + Mage = Mage's rules, for the simple fact that if that were the case, then vampires and werewolves and changelings and mummies wouldn't exist due to Consensus, and even if they did, they wouldn't do so in such vast numbers and be as thoroughly organized as they are. The Consensus does not make sense within the larger World of Darkness cosmology.

Oh, and also the simple fact that if that were the case, then the first Archmage to become an Archmage would by necessity become a true god, and have no reason to not rewrite reality to his whims. I.e., if someone actually has Mind 10, then why have they not acted on it?

Simply put, maybe it's MAGE that has to bend.

>>51405478
Because hes a Christian and it hurts his feelings for god not to be on top of the food chain.

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STOP

FUCKING

REPLYING

HOLY FUCKING SHIT YOU FUCKING WON LET IT FUCKING GO YOU AUTISTIC SHITHEEL

>>51405478
The same reason you care so much about your precious caine not being weaker than an Archmaster.

>>51405438

Various sources seem to disagree with you.

Various sources also seem to agree with you

Gamelines have differing versions of God, Anon. Mage explicitly goes out of its way to emphasize that Mages can surpass him. This doesn't have to be true in your Masquerade game. The metaplot is already contradictory as it is.

>>51405492
I'm not a Christian. I'm an atheist. But when I go and play D&D I don't reject the idea that the deities of Faerûn exist within Faerûn and are real to Faerûnians. When I play StarFox 64, I don't rant about the impossibility of talking animals flying faster-than-light starships and the idea of tiny Solar being a system's primary star.

>>51405509
>Mage explicitly goes out of its way to emphasize that Mages can surpass him.

I've yet to actually be shown this. M20 posted a hierarchy of beings, with God at the top, but it never said that Mages can reach him, let alone surpass him.

>>51405488

>No CANONICAL mage

The Spheres listed in MotA are all canonical abilities that have been used. The book is written IC. They even go out of their way to mention Mind Archmages as one of the rarest in the universe. These beings are unnamed but do in-fact exist.

>>51405499

They don't seem to like the idea of Cain losing to a Mage of any sort. Despite written evidence suggesting he would be no match for an Oracle based on capabilities.

>>51405337
>A very good point. God is as powerful as M20 deems him to be. Sure, it goes against Masquerade, but it's still canon.

Why does Mage supercede vampire in Canon?

>>51405409
Cannons suck in WoD anyhow.
Damage is way, way too low.

It is surprisingly easy, even for a human to survive being shot by one.

Oh. You were talking about CANON? That's an entirely different thing.

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Are people still trying to argue whether a planetary threat (Cain) equates to a universal (Archmage) one? Really?

This isn't up for discussion. Why is it still going on?

>>51405555
See >>51405469

Just because his name is "God" and he happened to have a barely at all similar deal with "Caine" to the IRL bible doesn't mean he's an all powerful god and vampire has no evidence to support otherwise.

>>51405554
So, as I suspected, you cannot name a single actual Archmage with power equal to that of God, nevermind exceeding him.

And that still doesn't answer why Mind 10 has clearly not actually been used, since its stated effect is making all sapient minds a single consciousness.

Fermi's Paradox applied to Mage. If there are Archmages of that power, then where are they? Why don't they show themselves? Why do we have no proof of their existence?

If an Archmage created the universe, who created the Archmage?

Checkmate Magethists.

>>51405555

That's not what I meant. Canon sources attack various other canon sources when they're introduced. It's up to the ST to fill in the holes and bloats.

If you don't want God being weaker than an Archmage, then he doesn't have to be. But if a Mage ST decides the opposite, then it's entirely canon.

It's your story.

>>51405585
Because oWoD, since it has multiple conflicting canons, and a lot of it, it invites arguing.

>>51405591
Y'know, aside from the fact that, in addition to vampire, we also have friggin' Fallen Angels running around, including Lucifer himself, who actually helped make the universe, have actually met God, and can confirm that he is, in fact, God.

>>51405614
But why is their argument always THE IRL BIBLE IS A CANNON WoD book, when there is no supporting evidence of this at all past a few similar characters who don't even match up in much else but name.

>>51405629
That does the opposite, it disproves the narrative and the rest of the text in the bible, the only thing affirming this god is all powerful.

>>51405629

Demon is the most conflicting gameline for any of the splats. Their views on the metaplot don't align at all. You're only going to hurt Masquerade even more if you include them.

>>51405585
That's not the issue. The issue is that God Himself is on Caine's side in any fight. The question isn't whether an archmage can take Caine; the question is whether an archmage can take the creator of the Universe, who at the least can be presumed to have several Spheres at 10 himself, if he even bothers to use Spheres at all.

>>51405629
A meaningless argument when we also have djinn, True Fae, the gods of every single pagan religion, and who even knows how many other biblically contradictory other beings who exist also.

Its the Consensus, its not 'real' in the sense you think it is.

>>51405647

>who at the least can be presumed to have several Spheres at 10 himself

Are you saying God is a Mage?

>>51405644
I'm not trying to defend Masquerade. I'm trying to say that no published Archmage can be demonstrated to be more powerful than God.

The only time Masquerade enters into it is the fact that anyone who picks a fight with Caine is also picking a fight with God.

>>51405633
I want a cannon book as well...
I mean, artillery is very exciting.

>>51405665
You've assigned stats and effects to god that aren't supported in WoD books. Only the bible. Again.

>>51405664
This explains everything! God invented Mankind to serve as a kind of spiritual lawnchair!

The body is afterall the seat of the Soul.

>>51405656
If the Consensus mattered as much as Mages thought it did there wouldn't be any Vampires or Werewolves because nobody thinks Vampires are the cursed descendants of Caine who secretly control the world and nobody thinks that the Planeteers are a bunch of fascist furrys.

>>51405656
Read your Bible again. The God of the Old Testament plays things very differently from the God of the New Testament. The First Commandment, for example:

>"You shall have no other gods before me, for I the LORD am a jealous god."

Properly speaking, the ancient Hebrew peoples never tried to debate whether or not other gods existed. They just derided the idea that any were greater than God himself.

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Is playing a higher-generation Caitiff who's been undead for a few decades a bigger Mary Sue than a Sabbat antitribu?

>>51405719
Yes, it is.
Sabbat antitribu are relatively common.
For instance, every single Lasombra who has gotten fed up with the fucking Tzimisce, and wants to join the side without flesh-puppeteers.

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>>51405665

>I'm trying to say that no published Archmage can be demonstrated to be more powerful than God.

That is still debateable. MotA has canon abilities that rival Biblical Creation. There is no absolute answer to who is more powerful. The fact that it's already been suggested (twice) that existence was "imagined" into being by an ancient Mage (and it's a very good possibility at this point) only blurs the power scales even further.

You can argue that God is stronger than an Archmage. You can even argue the opposite. There is no definitive answer to the question.

>>51403867
I use other splats as NPCs regularly, but never as PCs.

>>51405719
Clarify what you mean by "higher generation", as properly speaking that would mean something like 13th, 14th, or 15th generation, further from Caine. Closer to Caine is called a "lower" generation.

I once played a "natural" 8th-generation Caitiff, in any case. It was fun. Properly speaking, Caitiff can pop up at nearly any generation, even 4th. They're just more common among the higher generations.

>>51405747
I honestly don't see how an Archmage created the universe because this assumes that humans predated the entire universe.

>>51405760
They're a nice handy sign that the end is nigh!

>>51405766
Only that they predated this universe. Its not that complicated.

>>51405760
Something like 8th or 9th.

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>>51405760
>>51405719
A buddy of mine was planning a Victorian Vampire game [that never ended up happening] and I was going to play as a vampire nun who was Caitiff despite being relatively low [8th] generation, and possessed all the merits that weakened the effects of vampirism [blush of life, eat food, light sleeper, etc].

Fluffwise it was described as being because she possessed True Faith and it was countering the effects of the Curse of Caine, letting her hold on to much more of her humanity. She was Caitiff to avoid a Clan Weakness [which was also because of the True Faith]

Is that a bad use of Caitiff, or just a bad character idea in general?

>>51405766
Something something closed time loop, one presumes.

>>51405769
Oh, the end is always nigh. I remember back during the Bronze Age when everyone was going on that the Time of Thine Blood had arrived since 8th Generation vampires were first starting to pop up, and they were the first Generation that couldn't exceed natural human ability or master the greater powers of Disciplines. World didn't end then, won't end now.

>>51405766

You're thinking of the Avatars. They are not human. Yet, for some reason only cling to humans. The extraterrestrial civilizations encountered by the Void Engineers don't seem capable of True Magick.

There is something special about humanity. Cheesy as it is..

Young Thyrsus Mage hired a young pack of werewolves as bodyguards into the Shadow so she can broker a deal with a spirit. The pack wants to get big and famous after being abused by their former pack leaders who they killed previously.

>>51405795
As with everything, it depends on how you run it. Any concept is fine; it's the execution where things get good or bad.

>>51405747

You seem informed. Who do YOU think is objectively stronger?

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>>51405823
I was going to run her as a hyper-rationalistic Thomist who got Embraced against her will very shortly before the campaign started. I wanted to really play up the aspect of someone who was absolutely convinced she wasn't spiritually damned, yet still had to find some 'logical' and 'virtuous' way of existing as one of the Kindred.

Really explore the transformation and adapting to the new life aspects. That and chase vampires with crosses.

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>>51405745
>>51405760
Opinions seem split.

>>51405848
The entire question depends on whether you believe God is actually God or just a really powerful Spirit/Celestine/Whatever.

If he's merely a being of the Consensus, then an Archmage can bust his ass because Spirits are static and Mages aren't.

If he's actually God, then well obviously the Mage is fucked.

The rules say the ST decides which of those is true for Big G, so its ultimately up to the ST. Case closed, end of story.

>>51403948
>THIS IS FOR YOU, /TG/. I DID IT ALL FOR YOU.
And we love you for it

>>51405848

I'm informed? Oh, stop you flatter me.

Between God and the Archmages? I'm leaning on the Archmages solely because we haven't even touched on what happens when they ascend.

It also makes the most sense, in my honest opinion. If Mages can't surpass something, then their core theme is invalidated. I also particularly like the canon theory that each Mage is an individual shard of God when be shattered himself.

God and Mages the same thing? I like it. And it makes this argument pointless.

>>51404140
That's not shit posting that's just the truth. sorry

>>51405968
One anon's shit post is another anon's interesting conversation.

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These arguments always end up in the favor of Mage...
...Forgive me Cain

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As a blood-sucker, how is archery?

>>51404663
>apoc theme
you mean furry captain planet?

>>51406046

>use your extra actions from celerity to aim your shot
>aim for the heart and paralyze them (or kill them if they are a regular human)

arrows might not count as stakes but it's something to ask your ST about

>>51406057
It is also Native American eradication apologism.

Hunter was objectively the best WoD property, prove me wrong.

>>51406158
How offensive the game is seems like part of the appeal. How else do you end up with books like Freak Legion. (Other than just letting Brucato have his way with things).

>>51404924
sauce?

>>51406175
which one

>>51406019
>in the favor of Mage

This is how it has always been with the Vampfags. A short but heated debate about Methuselahs and Antediluvians, and then Cain & God step in, yet they still lose to Archmages and above.

Vampfags have always been the most biased asshats. Magefags are just elitist and pompous.

It will never change.

>>51406234
Obviously the gamecube game.

>>51405358
You're asking me to apply *science* to a *magic spell* that turns a *vampire* into a *chair*?

You need professional help.

>>51404460
>I sustain myself entirely from your tears.

Thanks Anon I'm feeling a bit lonely and needed that laugh.

>>51406276
What if they used a super science ether powered chair gun tho?

>>51406276
>not wanting to SCIENCE!
get wrekt

I'm joining in on this.

Who the fuck thinks Cain is a match for Ultra-Dumbledore? Last I checked Cain got fucking destroyed by Lilith. Not to mention 9 dot Spheres already outperform 10 dot Disciplines.

Are all Masquerade Anons this fucking retarded? Or do they just refuse to acknowledge that some old bearded people are better than their favorite bloodsucker?

>>51405293
Fuck off, newfag.

>>51405891
Of course they are. You can't cite Masquerade to prove Ascension wrong, and you can't cite Ascension to prove Masquerade wrong. They're different gamelines. The only person who can say for sure is Martin Ericsson. If anyone is really bothered by this question, I suggest they email him. His email, as he keeps saying, is always open....

>>51406345
what the fuck are you talking about

I'm asking whether or not a lower generation Caitiff is a mega mary sure

>>51406057
>stop liking what I don't like

Grow up.

>>51406335
you've had a week of bait threads already, do something else

>>51406335
>Rant

It's bias, dude. They can't think any other way. They were the first gameline so they must be the strongest. Yet, it's just never been true.

>>51406355
>MAGE SUPREMACY

>>51406356

Is that how long it's been?

>>51406354
sorry, replied to the wrong post.

Now for your question. No, it's not a mega Mary Sue. Read Outcasts sometime. Caitiff have been around forever. The Second Gen had no clan.

>>51406335

We get it. Wizards are amazing.

>>51406384
We sure are

>>51406335
>Are all Masquerade Anons this fucking retarded? Or do they just refuse to acknowledge that some old bearded people are better than their favorite bloodsucker?

No, it's mostly a reaction to the mage supremacy shitposting. Now people feel a need to bring down mages by any means necessary.

>>51406335
Masquerade is the most popular line. So of course they're going to assume and be ignorant of certain topics. I just wish they wouldn't be so aggressive about Cain.

>>51406373
maybe longer how long has Trump held office?

>>51406427
Right then so Mage Supremacy keeps going until we get tired of winning

>>51406384
Mages in universe have to cheat to get all their powers, and therefore players believe they can cheat out of universe. its disgusting

>>51406413

>bring down mages by any means necessary

Many have tried

>>51406437
well millions of folks got tired of winning during the speech and walked home before the photos were taken so there's that

>>51406442

I don't see how Mage supremacists are cheating. They seem to be specialists on the various power differences among the gamelines.

Perhaps if you just picked up a fucking book?

>>51406444
mage is the america of wod. the strongest. but they continuously piss everyone off to the point of open antagonistism. In an open conflict between murica verse the entire world. all the others dogpile and the giant monkey falls

>>51406485

Does that mean Vampire is the Russia of WoD?

>>51406461
>more bait
yeah we get it you have a nice pole collection. please stop sucking them off in general public thank you

>>51406497

Anything you don't agree with is bait, huh? Typical biased vampire faggot.

>>51406494
Yes actually. Baba yaga is a powerful russian Nosferatu. and Rasputin's clan is hotly contested, and was the original power players of the setting

>itt: a bunch of Mage players like to pretend they're clever and witty, and fail at both

Can the grownups speak now, please?

Each game is supposed to be centred on the splat it focuses on. In Mage, there is nothing more powerful than the Oracles. In Vampire, there is nothing more powerful than Caine. That's the long and the short of it. White-room battles are as pointless as they are stupid. No-one will ever win this argument, because the answer depends entirely on which game you're playing.

As I said before, maybe you should email Martin Ericsson and ask him whether Voormas could beat Caine in a fist-fight, because quite frankly, the rest of us are bored to tears with this inane testosterone-fueled dribble and endless chest-beating.

>>51406510
well you're certainly proving Anon's points, so that's a win

>>51406528

>In Vampire, there is nothing more powerful than Caine
>Until God or an Archmage shows up

>>51406528
You know.
The bullshit of Mage vs. God vs. Caine makes me glad that nWoD doesn't have anything equivalent.

>>51406538
Except in Vampire, Mages are limited to creepy dudes who want your organs and the occasionaly mad scientist, and no-one has seen God since he abandoned his creations in a fit of pique.

As I said, in each gameline, the central splat is king. Don't get salty because you don't have time to read.

>>51406562

>As I said, in each gameline, the central splat is king
>Until crossover

>>51405797
Humanity was created in God's own image.

>>51406567
I'm the ST, and I say no.

And that was the end of that.

>>51406574

>God
>May just be a another Mage

>>51406545
Oh don't say that the owodfags will get upset

>>51406574
>Humanity was created in God's own image.
>image
>I Mage
God confirmed for mage, debate over. Mage wins again.

>>51406019
This is exactly how I'm feeling right now.

Ignore the losers and move on, guys.

Have you guys seen the resale value on WoD dice? It's INSANE

>>51406651
>Have you guys seen the resale value on WoD dice? It's INSANE

A desperate attempt at changing the subject, I see

>>51406658
>(ignored)
>>51406651
yea, it's over a hundred bucks for a set with the original velure bag

I fucking hate these threads.

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>>51406673
>>(ignored)
>being this salty

>>51406673
From that to like 300 bux is usually what the tarot decks run for.

>>51406681

Why? Because you don't like how Masquerade will always be second to Ascension? Ohoho, the only first place award you got is sales.

>>51406603
No no, I have a clever idea: We phrase like nWoD lacks content, and they can be smug about that and angry at each other, the same time.

>>51406681
We get it Cain, just get over it

>>51406545
It really can't, what with the Exarchs literally ruling over all of reality from the Supernal Realms.

>>51406528
Wasn't there a thing that was released after the WoD ended that talked about how Rasputin was 0th generation because he was never embraced. He used alchemy to turn himself into a Vampire?

>>51406738
That's retarded. By that logic, Tremere is a 0th Generation too.

>>51406697
>ignored
>>51406700
It really makes me wish I'd kept mine...

>>51406734
It would, if they weren't busy fighting a war with the Old Gods and suchlike.
Then there is also the Principle, and other strange beings that may or may not exceed the Exarchs in power.

>>51406787

The Exarchs already won their right to rule over the World of Darkness. That's kind of the point? They're impossible to confront or fight directly due to being the living concepts & symbols of human tyranny & oppression.

>>51406722
more like nwod doesn't make sweeping statements on the meta level. Recent books not withstanding they've been generally pretty good at that. which leaves a lack high level content that can be argued over. which the thread loves it's god characters going at it in this ridiculous divine WWF grudematch

>>51406798
The greatest enemy of the awaken, man's shortsightedness and greed

>>51406896
and the idea that people are animals
evolutards btfo

>>51406798
The exarchs won but that doesn't mean they have 'a right to rule'. The inherent hubris to ascension is the assumption that your view on reality should be applied to the universe.

This was pretty world of darkness-y

http://imgur.com/gallery/AAgmE

It showed up on Reddit a few days ago. In a nutshell, some old WW2 vet saw angels and drew strange things beyond his skill level.

>>51406911
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Clade: Synapsida
Class: Mammalia
Order: Primates
Suborder: Haplorhini
Family: Hominidae
Tribe: Hominini
Genus: Homo
Species: H. sapiens

facts check out

>>51406880

From what I have noticed, this whole argument stems from the Masquerade Anons disregard for blatant information regarding power hierarchies. I consider myself well versed in both Vampire and Mage, and I have never once considered Cain to be comparable to a high-tier Archmage. I am not biased on the matter, in any way. The fact is that Cain isn't as invincible as people claim him to be.

>>51406917

Except that is where you're wrong, Anon. The entire point of Ascension is just that. You become a living truth upon all creation. The world was much different before the Fall. The hubris of the Exarchs enforced their vision to be the correct one. And it is, now and forever. Unless of course you seal a 5-dot Omen!

>>51406950
Fuck of raptor

>>51406950
another fucktard defeated through SCIENCE!!!

Have we finished evolving, do you think? Octopus have remained largely the same for millions of years, so have fleas. There are plenty of unusual mutations amongst humanity, but few seem to be spreading quickly.

>>51406917
The Fallen World has no inherent right to exist, any statement to the contrary is a declaration of spiritual surrender before the Exarchs.

I'm not sure if this is still true in 2e. But there is some debate among scholars in the awakened community about why the exarchs don't just squash all forms of dissidence against their rule. A popular theory is that there are entities known as oracles, possible peers to the exarchs, that stop them from exerting absolute control over reality.

However, besides the existence of the watch towers there isn't much evidence of the existence of these benevolent ascended beings and if you attain arch mastery and revisit a watch tower the question of their existence becomes murkier still.

In other words every mage knows 'the devil' is real they can see him whenever they turn on their sight. But 'god' is an absentee landlord at best.

>>51406950
>Genus: Homo
I know you are but what am I?

>>51406994

God doesn't exist in the CofD.

>>51406951
>disregard for blatant information regarding power hierarchies

The streams were never meant to be crossed, Anon. Caine is the most powerful figure in the Vampire line. God is gone. Mage is practically a separate universe.

The entire argument is as pointless as:
>which is better, a duck or a horse?

It's pointless because they're completely different with completely different uses.

>>51406951
>propagating a ridiculous divine WWF grudematch
no one cares about this. it's a meme move on

>living truth upon all creation
ascension = abandoning your humanity to become a symbol. you are no longer a human with human thoughts. moving on

>>51407015
>you are no longer a human with human thoughts.
Wanton lies

>>51406951
The act of ascension probably created the abyss for that very reason. By ascending the exarchs defined what is real and what isn't. By ascending you are redefining/expanding the countable infinite set of possibilities of the supernal but that also means you've increasing what can't be (e.g. the abyss) at a far greater rate.

The way I look at it defining reality with magic is going to eventually destroy it.

>>51407010
>Mage is practically a separate universe
The Clan Tremere seems to disagree, my good Anon. The gamelines are conflicted of course, but there is still much truth to them. Cain is the most powerful vampire, yes I can agree, but when you mix the lines he is no longer the top figure among the various lines. Archmages can erase galaxies, Anon! They are scary figures.


>>51407015
>abandoning your humanity to become a symbol

Symbols are truth. You must read Imperial Mysteries! It's a very good book. Far more workable than OWoD Archmages! And entirely playable!

>>51406974
As per darwin, Without the need to adapt to a new environment there's really nothing for a branching mutation to latch onto. We're kind of 'set' and we can only better adapt to the environment we find ourselves in. evolution at this point is largely scifi, but fun to think about

>>51406944
Here is the expanded post:
http://imgur.com/a/uCSg1

Also, it doesn't seem to be "beyond his skill". That looks like pretty normal human abilities to draw.

>>51406990
Been talking to the old man I see.

>>51407039
You'd be a good fit for the Guardians of the Veil, then. Some of them believe that every act of Paradox widens the Abyss just a bit, and eventually it will consume all of reality.

As for Ascension, I think it was cheating their way to it with the Celestial Ladder and then destroying that ladder that created the Abyss.

>>51407046

>Archmages can erase galaxies

They sure fucking can. Not even Cain can tank that.

>>51407084
Arrow for life. I just want to punch motherfuckers hard enough that reality stutters like a video game.

>>51407046
>Archmages
and Masters owod mages are also barred from mankind and earth. Paradox keeps pushing them out, to the point its suicide to come back. Basic immortality collects are permanent paradox. whats the point of being all powerful if you can't do anything meaningful with it. The Sphinx chronicles were all about this clusterfuck situation. The masters and null threat shooting off blanket weird encoded messages cause they're stuck on the wrong side of the wall

Vamps don't have that problem so there powers and situations are always real and impactfull to mankind.

what's the point of being able to destroy galaxies and planets if the one spot of exist that has any real meaning is barred?

>>51407085

That actually makes me wonder a bit more on the seven-fold curse. I don't think it's going to work on things that massive. But I don't know. It just seems silly for Cain to shrug off beings that can hurl the universe at you. I guess I'm going to have to agree with you.

>>51407118
Mysterium is best. Gimme that forbidden knowledge and sweet sweet loot. Guanxi sex with genderflipping Nazis is a good bonus too.

>>51407140
Well you can also create galaxies and planets so you could just make your own planet and your own people with a Consensus that accepts you.

So what is appeal of Deviant from the looks of it? We already have number of minor splats, endowments in Hunter and such. I would say we have enough material to make various weirdoes. Is there really a need for another splat when others could use a little more screen time?

>>51407140

A good amount of canon Archmages exist on earth due to complicated reasons. Medea is a Marauder Oracle who literally defies the Consensus by her will alone. She is also crazier than the craziest Malkavian. Senex is still a father figure to the Euthanatoi. The Unnamed (He has Entropy at 10 dots) is a Nephandi Oracle who blackened the entire universe when he caused the world to end. Then there are the other Nephandi Oracles and Voormas who aligned with him in the very end.

>>51407050
The guy was a radio operator with an 8th grade education. Carpenter by trade.

He draws technical diagrams of mechanical bearing systems based on what he claims was a vision straight out of the Book of Ezekiel.

I'd say that was unusual.

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>>51407180

Voormas was going to halt the entire universe once he reached Entropy 7. Everything would have just stopped. He was no slouch, that guy. Entropy is a powerful Sphere.

>>51407160
and it would be false, what would you do when your created world no longer entertains you? that's literally going back and chaining yourself back onto plato's wall, to stare at the shadows. and therefore the only way to win is to create your own game, thus accepting you couldn't make it in the game everyone else is playing.

Archmasters can only destroy that which they also create how poetic

>>51407085
See Quantum Mechanics theory, above. The moment they "destroy the galaxy" they create an alternative timeline where that universe is destroyed. Prime Universe Caine is still where he always was, driving a Taxi in Santa Monica. Secondary Universe Caine is space dust.

As it stands there's a lovely book full of Superpowers and no evidence any of them have ever been used. Quantum Mechanics explains that nicely.

You need to stop trying to apply absolutism to the World of Darkness, anon. You'll bleed from the brain trying to find lore that doesn't contradict itself.

I'm running my first game since 2007, the Malkavian won't stop dementating every fucking NPC and she's acting like an insufferable cunt about it.

How do I fuck her day over.

>>51407218

Your saying your theory is canon? That's a bit preposterous.

>no evidence any of them have ever been used

Untrue. They even bothered to describe how rare some of the Archspheres are. The Archmages & Exemplars are entirely canon and existent beings. The book was also written IC.

>>51407176
There really isn't need for another splat. I think I speak for everyone when I say that I'd rather see the existing lines get some more love than have the due dates on everything pushed back to make way for Beast 2: Beast Harder

>>51407232
give her the dick whether she wants it or not

>>51407234
>You're*

I have failed myself. Apologies.

>>51407204
Yeah, but he needed the weapon of Shiva, the soul of a Goddess and precious time to do it.

Gas Grass or Ass, nobody rides for free.

>>51407180
>complicated reasons
also know as plot. you're not wrong. but still it's plot, and vulgar displays of such power have quite a bit of kickback which is why they operate underground and get minions to do all the heavy lifting

>>51407249

All of those things he needed were him working up to Entropy 7. He was previously Entropy 6.

>>51407216
Or, you Ascend, leaving an alien civilization and another world out there in the Deep Umbra.

Maybe that's how Universes are made. Nested realities, each one birthing the Archmages that create the next, like an endless stream of Babushka dolls floating in the Quantum Foam.

BRB, need to listen to Tomorrow Never Knows and drop some LSD

>>51407232
>Malkavian using madness inducing Discipline all willy-nilly
Sounds like a Masquerade violation to me. Or something that will definitely catch the attention of a vigilant Hunter.

>>51407232
ST Fiat. Create a strange Mortal with the ability to reflect aggressive Disciplines back on the caster. Give them some kind of odd mark. When the mark starts appearing on other Mortals, the player will panic (once their character has stopped hallucinating)

>>51406944
Why are you posting this again?

>>51407235
I just would love to see Geist 2e. Feels bad man

>>51407204
>Voormas
>>51407249
Actually this is exactly Why I liked the Voormas story. It demonstrated that you can pull off ridiculously power bullshit, but you needed a lot of power, tools, materials and time to pull it off. It's a warlock witch necromancer wizard high ritual. perfect for would be heros to crash or interfere with

>>51407268
>Rick and Morty
dream shells are a thing in the umbra. but again
>>51407216
>Archmasters can only destroy that which they also create

It's the you can never go home analogy

>>51407234
>Your saying your theory is canon? That's a bit preposterous.

No, simply that my theory explains how such earth-shattering powers can exist with no mention in any of the fluff of them ever having been used.

>>no evidence any of them have ever been used
>Untrue. They even bothered to describe how rare some of the Archspheres are.

True, but not specific examples of them being cast, or by whom, or when.

>The Archmages & Exemplars are entirely canon and existent beings.

Also true, but again, no mention of "Exemplar Bob once cast Forces 9 to destroy the entire Xargel Galaxy, as a result of a particularly nasty argument over the appropriate tie to wear to a peer's funeral"

>The book was also written IC.
I'm not denying that, I'd just like you to show me in the fluff where it states that one of these powers was actually, demonstrably used and observed. After all, these are not subtle abilities. I think people would notice if the Higgs-Boson field failed and gravity went bye-bye like an episode of Eureka.

>>51407282
because it's cool and full of plot material

>>51407282
Because it might inspire someone to tell great stories.

Some of us actually enjoy playing these games, and not bickering about them like children.

>#themoreyouknow

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I just heard this amazing story about a CtD chronicle guys. Check it out, it's really interesting, not to mention it's very true to the fluff and spirit of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4OI2XZGfBs

>>51407284
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Geist needs an update. Mummy needs more material. Promethean could always use more books. We really don't need OPP spreading themselves even thinner.

>>51407180

>The Unnamed

At 10 Willpower you only have a 7% chance of not going insane from looking at him. Stats go over the limit (over 10) with infinite Quintessence and Entropy at 10. Easily the scariest thing WW has ever statted.

>>51407315

>evidence for Sphere 9 effects
The book was written IC as previous Anon wrote. How else are they going to list the capabilities without them being cast before? Your science experiment doesn't really explain anything. It's not good logic, sorry.

>>51407339
well, that's 2 minutes of my life I'll never get back.

I think I'll watch something more entertaining now, the paint is drying on the wall.

>>51407359
If it's all IC, how do you know it's not just bullshit propaganda? You know, like Beast self-justification?

The fact remains, none of these abilities have ever demonstrably been used. Even the Voormas example was only Entropy 7, and the MotA book goes up another 2 notches after that. Therefore they are either too hard to use, too taxing on the user, too hard to control, too risky to try, or create an alternative timeline.

Sorry.

>>51407359
Need I also point out that if these abilities had been used, the Ascension war would have been over in a few weeks?

Kind of makes you wonder why it wasn't....

>>51407397

I really don't understand your logic. I think it's just a cop-out to be honest. Perhaps you don't like the idea of beings with so much power?

I'm going to let you slide. Maybe if you're happy I can be happy?

>>51407407

The metaplot never really made any sense, now did it? Each world can't blow up or else the other one has to explain it. CofD doesn't have this problem in any way.

>>51407340
Demon is probably the only minor splat that has the books it needs and can roll out just fine. I agree with the ones you mention but would still focus on Geist since it was never given chance to take off

>>51407397
Are you actually trying to argue that a canon book isn't canon .. .. ..?

Vampfags will resort to anything.

>>51407370
Looks like someone isn't able to appreciate my 100% objectively amazing sense of humor.

>>51407414
Now you're ascribing false motivations to me.

I LIKE Mage. I think Ascension is fucking awesome, I hate Brucatto but doesn't everybody? I don't have a problem with Archmages at all. I'm just trying to offer an elegant explanation that allows the book to actually co-exist with the rest of IT"S OWN gameline. Otherwise, the entire universe would have ended with the first Nephandi Archmage. The Ascension war would have been over in a few weeks, if it took that long. A Technocrat could just re-write history to suit the master plan. etc, etc, etc....

Otherwise you have a book full of cool powers, and over 200 Archmages sitting in the Umbra saying
>yeah I could totally merge with every consciousness in creation.... but I'm not gonna *burp*

>>51407397

>Therefore they are either too hard to use, too taxing on the user, too hard to control, too risky to try, or create an alternative timeline.

Gee, I wonder why they made a casting system for it then, huh? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

>Trying to apply logic to a horrendous setting
>Not going to work

>tfw no 1960s Dark Era focused on all the absolutely batshit shenanigans happening across the globe at the time

>>51407499
>dubs of truth

What's the point in power if it's never used?
What's the point in Mastery if you never exercise it?

>>51407526
So archmastery is a noob trap

>>51407499

>I'm just trying to offer an elegant explanation that allows the book to actually co-exist

Why not just apply the Pax Arcanum concept from Imperial Mysteries instead of pretending like it's impossible for Archmages to do anything?

A mutual agreement between universal entities to prevent mutually assured destruction? There are better alternatives than your own actually written by competent writers.

>>51407534
No, it's not a trap according to the rules to cast Archmagic. They're just trying to come up with theories as to why the universe isn't exploding.

>>51407538
>applying nwod concepts to owod

soooooooooooooooooooooooo owod is a broken mess that needs to steal from nwod?

>>51407558

>owod is a broken mess

I would be an idiot if I didn't agree on this. A fucking idiot.

My point is that Imperial Mysteries gave a good explanation for god-tier beings not blowing up existence.

>>51407511
What?

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Archmages eat the fucking multiverse. Vampfags thinking otherwise is not going to make it untrue. Cain is an overrated cuck. His curse of protection isn't going to defend against a black hole conjured by an Oracle of Forces.

You suddenly have an unlimited blood pool and blood per turn expenditure, what is the most bullshit thing you can do?

Infinite celerity? Infinite aggravated with Quietus 5?

>>51407538
I never pretended it was impossible, Mr Passive Aggressive, and I wouldn't ever call Phil Brucatto "competent".

But fine, quote me the page number that explains the problem and I'll call it a day.

>>51407576
except there is faction who's stated goal is destroy existence. at least in nwod the big bad wanted existence so it can control it. why would any faction agree to this? and again that's using nwod material and not what is presented in owod material. that is using outside material to justify a pet theory. and therefore it is the concession that mage is the one that must bend

>>51407644

It's called the Pax Arcanum. Go read Imperial Mysteries or just surf the Mage section of the OPP forums. Then apply it to Masters of the Art. Problem solved.

The Pax also includes the various gods of the setting. Thought you should know. It's a very important part of the package deal. Each splat has a "sponsor".

>>51407313
>Archmasters can only destroy that which they also create

>>51407673
Nice headcanon

>Sphinx chronicles
>massive paradox
otherwise the setting doesn't make sense

>>51407656

The Nephandi want to blacken the universe and erase it. Creating a better (at least to them) one in the process. Blowing up creation isn't the type of destruction they want. This was all described and done in the End Times scenario.

I didn't suggest the excuse on my behalf. I suggested it on behalf on another Anon who's convinced the Archspheres don't exist.

>>51407637

While I agree Cain wouldn't be able to tank a black hole. You don't have to be a rude butt about it.

>>51407664
See, that's not a bad idea either.
>>51407710
It's widely acknowledged that the Nephandi who want to create "Mad Max: Beyond Ascension-Dome" in "Ascension" are wildly different from every other treatment they've ever been given. Since Book of Madness 1e, their stated goal has been the Descension of the entire universe, either for Things That Should Not Be beyond the blackest regions of space, or for the same Infernal forces that corrupt the Sabbat. Early books were quite clear on this. They wanted to pull the pin.

And again, I never said the Archspheres didn't exist. I pointed out that there's a book full of superpowers and no evidence they've ever been used, when there was ample reason to do so. I even suggested possibilities as to why that was. Wew lad, is your position so untenable you have to shove words in your opponents mouths now?

>>51407757
If you report the shitpost, you don't have to look at it anymore. Trolling outside of /b/ is a banning offense.

>>51407837
Can you elaborate on the things Nephandi work for? I have only cursory knowledge of owod and this thing seems interesting.

>>51407837

>no evidence they've ever been used

That doesn't mean they've never been used.

>>51407845

As much as I can sympathize with you, that won't necessarily do much. The Mage supremacists are surviving because their baiting is still on-topic.

Ever since Masters of the Art was mentioned 10 threads ago Magefags have been masterbating over it left and right. A single Aspel is starting to seem nice over a horde of Mage supremacists fapping over a single book.

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>>51408008
>A small but relevant rant

Probably because it's proof that there are beings stronger than Cain and perhaps even God. It's their secret weapon.

Masqueraders seem to hate the very mention of it and disregard it entirely. But it's canon.

>>51407637 Is a good pointer of the autism being flung around here like monkey dung. I'm not particularly impressed by this as an avid Ascension fan myself.

>>51407837

I never actually liked the Nephandi as antagonists. I was a big suck up for the Union and their dashing Void Engineers manipulating other worlds apart from our own. When Threat Null was unveiled I was absolutely ecstatic. I'm a sucker for Sci-Fi.

>>51407878
All Nephandi go through "The Caul" to become what they are. Some of them defect from other groups (Barabbi) while some are just born evil (Widderslainte) and torture puppies for a while before the others find them.

The Infernalists sell their souls, not for power, but to destroy the world. These are your garden variety demon worshippers, and they team up with Infernalists from the Sabbat. They are subtle, they pass for normal and they're insidious.

The Malfeans worship the Wyrm from Werewolf the Apocalypse. They usually dance the Black Spiral to gain their powers. They're quite, quite mad. They hang out with Black Spiral Dancers and enjoy long walks on oil-slicked beaches.

The K'llasshaa worship the Outer Lords. The Outer Lords ruled this reality aeons ago, banished through treachery or fate, and desire to return and rule over hell on earth. Their rituals are straight-up torture porn and snuff films, and they ooze negative emotion (which makes them the easiest to track and destroy). Lovecraft tried to warn us about these assholes.

>>51407936
Again, these powers aren't subtle. Someone would have noticed and either had to correct it, or observed reality snap back like a rubber band. The fluff is full of examples of that happening, like the aforementioned Zeppelin invasion.

>>51408090
>Masqueraders seem to hate the very mention of it and disregard it entirely.

So does Phil Brucatto and he literally wrote half of the material for the setting, as well as taking lead dev on Mage 20th.

Technically Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand is canon, but I've never seen anyone use that one, either.

Anyway, the whole point is moot. The Avatar Storm cut the world off from the Deep Umbral glades where the Archmages dwell. They will have forgotten about the Tellurian, believing it to be nothing more than a dream. They're more spirit than human now.

>>51407945
Trolling is trolling.

>>51408241
Thanks mate. Were Outer Lords descibed anywhere or are they your average Lovecraftian dudes?

>>51408255

You're trying to apply logic to a setting that already struggles with coherency. I don't think you're going to succeed.

The Zeppelin Invasion of Czar Vargo was within the bounds of the Consensus. You're trying to apply something that is completely irrelevant to beings that are not longer restricted by such.

The Avatar Storm cut off access to the Deep Umbra, it did not necessarily hamper everything beyond the Horizon. You can be assured that these beings are still out there. The Technocratic Union was not so fortunate and essentially became the Borg, AKA the Threat Null. No one has heard any news of the Stronghold of Hope.

>>51408255
The Consensus doesn't go past the Asteroid Belt. There's no reason to assume that the Archspheres are automatically corrected every single time they are used.