/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

>>51376116

Fuck yes, every player that wants to play one of those or a malkavian needs a veto of "doesnt suck"

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Continuing from last thread:

>>51376033
>Alright, so Clarity - I assume that is the Changeling Integrity analog, but how does it work? What does it do?

Clarity, as you know, is the measure of the Changeling's grip on their humanity. However, more accurately, they're basing that grip on their MEMORY of their humanity. That's why sudden life changing events like a sudden move can be a Clarity breaking point. As they move down the line, they forget more and more of their lives as humans and start thinking more and more like the True Fae, which is why they get more and more okay with bad shit happening.

>>51376177
They actually can stay at high Clarity and enjoy it's benefits.

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Are there any games similar to WoD but not by OPP or WW?

Specifically vampire (I like how they handle the balance of weaknesses/strengths compared to most settings), but I'll take any kind of modern (doesn't even have to be modern) supernatural setting that's about playing the supernaturals instead of the Hunters.

>>51376116
I feel that a lot of Bloodlines are in the realm of ST-only, why would someone want to play some of them? They're just terrible in some cases.

As a vampire, what are things you should consider before choosing a melee weapon?

>>51376222
There's Unknown Armies, which is basically M:tAw but with Trailer Trash and Illegal Still Booze instead of finely cut clothing and occult jewelry, there's also Nobilis, which is about Demons/Angels, but I really don't think there's a good analogue out there for Vampire.

>>51376152
I'd actually allow a Malkavian from the "quiet" bloodline with Dominate more easily than the standard Malk with Dementation.

>>51376226
But not terrible in others, which makes them...exactly like everything else.

>>51376116
Depending on the chronicle I'm running, I think the only one I'd hard-veto is the Blood Brothers. Everything else, it depends on the player's concepts.

>>51376253
How easily you can hide it when in public. Having a knife on you at all times, for example, is just a good idea; a knife is a tool as much as it's a weapon and can be put to a lot of good uses beyond just stabbing people. Conversely, it can be difficult to explain to mortals why you're lugging a battleaxe around with you.

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>>51376226
Some of them, yes. But I'll be fucked if the True Brujah aren't fucking interesting as a concept, and if Temporis isn't cool as all hell.

But that's the problem, they seem "cooler" than the base 7 clans so they attract all the people who want to be special snowflakes who don't know when to reign it in, so they're effectively ruined.

>>51376253
If it's a bladed weapon, essentially the historical fighting style of their birthplace/area where they spent most of their unlife. A vampire from the Mediterranean/Iberia is going to prefer a rapier more than a vampire from Denmark, just for example.

>>51376267
Well yeah, Blood Brothers go without saying. You'd need to make an entirely Blood Brother campaign to even consider it, and I think their entry says as much.

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>>51376267
No way, that's bullshit and you know it, no one should be allowed to play an Anda, or an Ahrimane in the modern day, that's just like off the top of my head. There are a lot of retarded bloodlines that honestly should have never even been published.

>>51376292
The only bloodlines that i'd even consider for most people world be Baali, Harbingers, Nagaraja, Samedi and maybe Lamia. The others are either just pants-on-head dumb or are so select in number or specialized that they're not really appropriate for most concepts.

>>51376303
> no one should be allowed to play an Anda, or an Ahrimane in the modern day

Depends on the concept. Frankly the idea of the Last Anda is kind of neat, especially if they go all Shiwan Khan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCbGBDy6Tbo

THAT'S RIGHT, I REMEMBER THE SHADOW.

FIGHT ME FAG!

>>51376353
I've still got this concept of a True Brujah Iraqi pilot who got Embraced in 1941 and became a Mesopotamian/Noddite scholar, but I doubt I'll ever get the chance to play it.

>>51376380 >>51376303
Yeah, I'd like to realize emphasize the fact that ya done goofed when saying that no one should play Anda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN_Yms0Xm_s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ8vXeb59wE

>>51376416
>>51376380
I haven't laughed this much in days, thank you so much. Shiwan Khan seems like a straight-up Euthanatoi to me though.

>>51376464
If I'm being 100% honest...

This is how I Vampire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qxZvYEfJBA

>>51376222

Urban Shadows is a crime drama game through the lens of WoD-style Urban Fantasy.

>>51376177
This is actually pretty interesting, more so than "the boogeyman is gonna get you". Besides running and hiding and trying to be human, what do Changelings do?

>>51376641
Some fight back.

>>51376641
Explore the Hedge for magic goblinfruit. Visit the Goblin Market to buy just about anything you can imagine, including non-material things like memories and emotions. Make Pledges (magical deals) with people and other supernaturals for protection and power. Root out Loyalists (traitors who want to return people back to Arcadia for amnesty). Deal with Fetches (magical clones left behind to take over their life when they got kidnapped).

That's just some options for 1e at least.

>>51376483
I'm going to give you props for something different and not another alucard variant.

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>>51376915
>qt obrimos.png
No such gods-damned thing.

have a qt moros

qt Acanthus and qt Mastigos when?

>>51376915
looks more thrysus than the thrysus.

>>51376116

Mage are best and Strix are shit.

>>51376930
>>51376641
Not just other people, the most powerful Changeling pledges are made with abstract concepts. For example, the baseline protection that Changelings fall back on are their contracts with the changing seasons, which is why the power in the average changeling freehold is based around the courts of Spring, Summer, Autumn, and Winter. All of those courts have an emotion tied to them which they amplify and allow their courtiers to source power from (Desire, Wrath, Fear, and Sorrow, respectively). A lot of a changeling's new life can be wrapped up in Versailles-esqe jockeying for influence and power, all playing the game in the rules of the Courts to uphold the Pledges.

The seasons aren't the only courts you might find, they're just the most commonplace. Other ones are like Sun and Moon and the cardinal directions.

what elements should a picture have to consider it qt Acanthus?

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>>51377098

>>51376864
>>51376641
And yeah, some fight back. The Summer Court is pretty much founded on the concept of "Why the fuck should we hide? We need to kick the Fae's teeth in if they ever come here!".

>>51377139
How do I make people angry enough for them to give me some sweet sweet glamour but not angry enough to punch me in the face or call the cops?

>>51377239
Serve court summons.

>>51377239
Just do what I did. Open a gun range and give the police free ammo and a 50% range time discount. They come in to blow off steam, you get to feed off of that.

>>51377300
Free ammo? That's a bit much, surely it should be the other way round. discount ammo and free range time?

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Is Tamaura a Changeling or Acanthus?

>>51377239
You don't have to be the cause of the anger. You just have to be nearby.

Just chill near the room of your average /wodg/-goer and collect all the butthurt you'll ever need.

>>51377239

Attend Friday Night Magic. Go to LGS where people are playing Warhammer. Play League of Legends, Battlefield and Overwatch.

TONS of butthurt to feed off of.

>>51376483
But do you play the theme music?

>>51377494
Can you feed over the internet?

>>51377424
>not taking the excuse to be the biggest asshole

being passive means you have to wait. Being active means you get to eat.
>>51377494
this is a pretty good example

>>51377562
the more layers you have between you the target and the inciting event the less glammer you get. You'd have to get some kind of real life changing anger to feed completely remotely over the internet. Like destroying someone life personally and getting anger death threats.

>>51377568
>taking the excuse to be the biggest asshole
I mean, sure. If you want to become a True Fae even quicker and lose your Changeling support group ASAP.

>>51377239
Tell them you voted for Trump.

>>51377635
>bait
appeal to hyperbole. if you're not actually going to buy into the themes of being a manipulative dick maybe not play changeling anon.

>>51377612
Three words for you, Anon:

YouTube
Comment
Sections

>>51377808
Being a manipulative dick is not the theme of CtL. Maybe it's the theme of CtD; I wouldn't know.

>>51377612

People get that worked up over perceived censoring in video games, I'm pretty sure a Changeling could feed off of it. Hell they probably instigate a lot of it.

Also imagine a Changeling in the SoCal area attending fighting game nights and tournaments, feeding off the saltiness. Maybe they git gud and even taunt them relentlessly in and out of game.

>>51377327
Whatever it takes to get them in there.

>>51377612

You could just work Retail and you'll be set for life. So many butthurt customers its not funny.

>>51376292
>But I'll be fucked if the True Brujah aren't fucking interesting as a concept, and if Temporis isn't cool as all hell.

One day I'll play my jewel thief Trujah concept and it'll be fucking great

>>51377806
Trump is a low clarity high wyrd fairest golden boy of the summer court. who will rise into the ranks of True fay when he leaves the POTUS office as the new el presidente

>>51377973
>Hell they probably instigate a lot of it.
Yes exactly Changeling is the Soap Opera splat about making the biggest drama spike you can, so you can feed and horde glammer

>>51378012
yupe. Retail, and customer service in general. yankees are angry lot. yall are all little Jacks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeOevu4zC5o

Take more vacations. your corporations are killing you off by inches

>>51378012
Or working in a call center.

>>51376222
There's Wraeththu

>>51379311
Is that the one where the vampires are hermaphroditic aliens?

>>51379386
Yes and the big antagonists are decadence and nihilism, perfect for the wod crowd

>>51379556
But those are your best friends in WoD. How can they be antagonists?

>>51376222
What do you dislike about WoD/CofD? That might help with pointing you in the right direction.

>>51379676

Not really? I always saw it as raging against all of the nihilism. Granted nihilists themselves are whiny scummy teenagers so... I guess that fits their target audience.

>>51380125
I mostly love it, but 2e (despite changing a lot of things in beneficial ways) has largely been a clusterfuck when it comes to mechanics. Mostly in the form of missing key rules (like lifting rules, which still aren't present and requires referencing 1e, or what to do in a tie which hasn't even been addressed in any edition as far as I can recall).

So I just want CofD, but made by a competent company. Not that I really blame OPP. Using nothing but freelancers with overworked line heads can't be easy, but I buy books so that I don't have to make up my own rules. Having to make up my own rules for books I bought is fucking dumb.

Back when I was running VtR 2e, I couldn't go a session without hitting something the book was missing. Sometimes multiple times per session. I was hoping it'd get better as they got into the swing of 2e, but all the questions without answers posted on the forums indicates that they haven't.

>>51380317
>Bait
8/10 almost believed you were really concerned

>>51380403

>I don't agree with this statement therefore it is bait and shitposting

lol ok

>>51380317

Then you probably want Urban Shadows, unless you don't particularly care for the Powered by the Apocalypse framework. Then Dresden Files RPG will have to be your best bet, though if you don't like Fate's framework either, you could always settle for After Sundown. That's the take on CofD that uses Shadowrun as a mechanical base.

>>51380755
Fate's left a bad taste in my mouth, though probably more due to GMs than the system itself. I did do chargen and a single session of Dresdin Files.

Still, thanks a bunch. I'll definitely check out the other two.

Asked this a few threads ago, but do you think a ST would be agreeable to making a Thompson SMG D5 instead of D4 like the statted "large submachine gun" in V20? The "Heavy Pistol" they have is also D5, and it shares a cartridge.

>>51381605
I'd probably ask why you are being so finicky over weapon stats and probably watch you for cheating and general abuse of the system from then out.

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>>51381675
>want an SMG that was known for hitting hard to have that one extra damage dice
>this means you're probably a cheating munchkin

Anon I think you went 0-60 a little quick there.

>>51381755
>Asking for house rules to nudge numbers in your favor
In my experience most people asking for shit like this to be house ruled are both bad at rules and trying to exploit the system without getting caught.

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>>51381755

>raped

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FINALLY...it's done. The Vampire Monster Manual. 108 pages worth of generic NPCs for you to throw at the peons who show up to your games. I mean the player troupe. Whatever.

56 Clan vampires, 18 Bloodline vampires, 17 ghouls, 17 other supernaturals, 29 mortals, and 23 animals. A total of 160 NPCs, suitable for any chronicle taking place in the modern day.

Remember that these are meant to be generic things to throw at your troupe, NOT a replacement for hand-crafting a character for your chronicle yourself. The Prince and Primogen and so on of your main city should be made to your specifications. But when your chucklefuck players decide that, no, they don't want to stay in Boston, they really do need to go over to Worcester for God knows what reason. Or start a fight with the pizza delivery guy that they themselves called over to their lair. Or whatever.

Enjoy! I'll be posting this in the next few threads so as to ensure maximum exposure.

THIS IS FOR YOU, /TG/. I DID IT ALL FOR YOU.

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>>51381888
I'd agree with you if it wast unprecedented. But making a gun's damage match its cartridge when there's an example of it in the book isn't that out there. Maybe I'm just too /k/. It's not like it's trying to make it damage 8 or something.

>>51381934
Saved forever.

>>51381975
Going /k/ommando levels of autismo throws every munchkin flag in the book.

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>>51381934

>>51381997
Oh really. Changing the bullet is munchkin-tier?

>>51382055
Its been a direct indication in every instance I've ever seen. Usually from the same people who love armory and think 1st edition fighting styles were well written and balanced.

>>51382071
Well fuck me, then. I guess I better keep my mouth shut asking for a different gun because that puts me at cheater level in people's books.

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>>51381934
Thank you VMM, got any plans to do any other Splats? Stuff like this has always been lacking in WW's catalog.

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>>51381934

>"a mage is no match for a vampire in a straight-up-fight"

As a mage supremacist I find this particular quote absolutely revolting. Not because it is entirely false but because it is entirely contradictory.

Obviously written by a vampire fag who hates the very mention of lawn chairs. Not impressed.

>>51382133
Your ST may have had better luck with players than I have. Running a LARP doesn't exactly give you the best of the best..

>>51382133
Protip: If you only want validation for your shitty demands and not an honest answer to your question, don't ask it here.

I don't get why people bother asking if they'll just bitch and moan about not getting the approval of anonymous people on the internet for their weird schemes.

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>>51382163
I like to assume that the fluff mentioned there is how the average Kindred view mages [who knows of them at all]. Its obviously trying to set the impossible realities of Mage into the context of Vampire.

So the western vampires would of course have little exposure to Mages, and what Mages they see are Hermetics and Choristers, so of course they assume they're squishy wizards [because they usually are]

I'm sure if a Kindred lived in a place filled with Akashics he'd have a different view. I have a standing mental fantasy of an unfortunate neonate who tries to feed on a normal-looking Chad only to get hit with a kamehameha wave.

>>51382133
IF this is how you react to getting told "no", I would ban you from my table you fucking faggot.

>>51382189
I was asking if it was a reasonable request. I didn't expect to get the answer that even asking it in the first place was fucking cheater-tier.

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Oh, don't forget that the Vampire Monster Manual works very well with the Random Vampire City Generator, also by me.

>>51382147
I'm not nearly familiar enough with any of the other splats to do such, but I highly encourage someone else with the time and Power Level/Autism Level necessary to make this.

Right now what I really need is to get the non-free version of Adobe so that I can add bookmarks and stuff to the .pdf.

>>51382163
It's directly copy/pasted from the V20 core rulebook.

>>51382228

Are you implying a Hermetic can't fight better than an Akashic? Because they usually do. Their knowledge of the supernatural outstrips the other Traditions by a good margin and they also have a burning hatred for the Kindred. They know exactly what they are dealing with.

I can see a lesser Mage being fodder to a lesser Vampire, but a greater Magus (4-5 dots) is not going to consider any single leech as anything more than a minor nuisance.

>>51381934
>>51382302
Damn it, I can't get .pdfs on 4chan to open properly. What's wrong with Firefox now?

>>51382342

>It's directly copy/pasted from the V20 core rulebook.

How annoying. The Vampire Storytellers Handbook (Revised) has the opposite opinion. I guess the writers don't know Mage very well.

>>51382344
Yeah, but Vampire trumps Mage every time in the only area that actually matters: book sales.

>>51382344
I didn't say a Hermetic can't beat up a vampire [he most certainly can], but he's less likely to made his skin as hard as steel and go in close, at least usually.

If you're playing a Hermetic and the thing you were trying to kill wasn't killed from at least a block away, you're doing it wrong.

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How well would a mage do agaisnt this guy? Probably not well at all if I could give a guess.

>>51382435
>Random generic looking animu character with no file name.
Pretty sure they could just shield against whatever silly elemental power he probably has.

>>51382412

>If you're playing a Hermetic and the thing you were trying to kill wasn't killed from at least a block away, you're going it wrong.

Not always. Various canon materiel has had Mages defying the norm. A Hermetic once saved a Tzimisce from a couple of Tremere by personally confronting them.

It all depends on the scenario. But you're right that most Mages will not be so blatant.

>>51382473
I'm DMing Mage right now, and the smartest PC isn't even there. He's a Virtual Adept with a drone who performs all his Effects and Abilities at range. Everyone else is all "Imma punch it in the face with my awesome wizard powers!"

Meanwhile this nigga keeps stealing people's social security numbers and 90s-movie hacking everything they come across.

But I agree with your sentiment, the idea that Mages, even Hermetics are SQUISHY is a horrendous myth. Half the Spheres give you a near endless toolbox for avoiding or tanking pain.

>>51381934
>>51382302
This looks great! Nice job!

>>51382519
Hooray. That's wonderful. You probably don't run in to those kinds of mages in a Vampire chronicle. It's not that kind of game.

>>51382457
>Not knowing about the Touman
He has a power in his right hand known as Imagine Breaker. Touma's Imagine Breaker, negates both esper powers and magic. Moreover, through several circumstances, even divine powers, such as, in his own admission, the miracles of god, and more prominently his defeating of Archangel Gabriel in World War III

>>51382550
Yeah real Mage and Vampire don't mix well if you're running Vamp, unless you just want to put the fear of God into your players.

>>51382555
Does it make the rest of his pattern immune to being immolated? If not it seems kinda useless given the pattern level targeting mages do to unmake a body. I hope he enjoys being just an arm. Or getting shot with guns and apparently not having any good luck vs a fate mage.

>>51382579
I plan on introducing antediluvians if my rag-tag group of Technocrats ever reaches 'Spirit Nuke/Sun laser' levels of power/XP.

>>51382555

That's the anime that ruined Aleister Crowley by giving him feminine features and having him convert to science! Get out of here you weeb!

>>51382598

The Technocracy killed an Antediluvian with 4-5 Sphere effects in the Week of Nightmares. Nearly killed him with Spirit Nukes then finished him off with solar power. It was a bad day for Vampire fans everywhere.

>>51382435

Mages actually carry guns a lot of the time.

>>51382630
lol. no

>>51382598
Just be aware that in the runup to Gehenna, one of the Antediluvians woke up and went on a rampage in Bangladesh. The Technocracy decided this was the time to get overt and deployed said sun laser against him. He still killed like 30,000 people before they were able to finally bring him down. And he was the weakest one out of all the clans.

Antediluvians are final-boss tier powerful.

>>51382579
I remember reading a story once over on Giant In the Playground about someone who was playing a game of vampire where they'd pissed off a Mage for some reason. One night, as the troup were driving down the road,

THE FUCKING SUN ROSE.

It was only for like a second, but the sun was in the sky, the entire troupe took damage, some of them nearly frenzied, they drove off the road, wondering what the FUCK had just happened as they're screaming in pain...

Then there's a tapping on the driver's, they look, and see the Mage they pissed off just looking at them and frowning. Then he just disappeared.

The universal response from Giant in the Playground was that the player and his troupe should figure out what they did to piss of the Mage, apologize, do whatever it took to get back on his good side, and be happy that all they took was a ton of aggravated damage, because they did NOT want to fuck with a Mage who could make the Sun rise in the middle of the night and tank whatever Paradox occurred as a result of it.

I think the moral of the story was "don't take the 5 point Enemy flaw."

>>51382630

>5 dot Spheres killing an Antediluvian

Yeah, it was a bad decision to make by the writers. Mages have always shit on Vampires. The past threads were also discussing Cain vs Archmages. The Archmages won. They even decided to pick on God.

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>>51382435
Accelerator could beat Touma's ass easily. He could wreck anyone in Wod as well. Using my boy Accel in vs discussions is stupid and unfair to be honest.

>>51382707
>isolate his arm from his body

This is a bad idea.

The rest of those will work just fine and it's actually ridiculous that no one in the anime has gotten them done.

>>51382678
>>51382630
Properly speaking, they killed an Antediluvian after that Antediluvian had already spent 3 days fighting three Kuei-jin Boddhisatvas on both the physical and spritual plane, had tanked two nuclear weapons, and utterly did not care that the sun was in the sky.

It took the Technocracy using a number of mirror satellites to focus thousands of times the normal strength of the Sun onto Zapathasura to actually kill him, and there's no guarantee in the slightest that it would have worked without all the lead-up.

And yes, Zapathasura was by a significant margin one of the weaker Antediluvians, AND he woke up early, AND spent a significant amount of the fight literally starving, with his vitae running on empty.

What would the Technocracy have done if all the surviving Antediluvians had woken up at the same time? Because all evidence based on what it took to kill Zapathasura is "get fucked".

>>51382649
lol. yes

>>51382768

someone non retarded with accelerator's powers could do those things easily.

That doesn't mean accelerator can. 'Your boy' is space lawnchair fodder at best.

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>weeb shit

>>51382768
Isn't alter acceleration/kinetic energy only like a Forces 3 spell?

>>51382778
Some Archmage would travel back in time and make it where vampires never existed.

Problem solved.

>>51382778

The Ravnos Antediluvian was a woman.

The Spirit Nukes almost killed her. Go back and read the source material.

One of the weakest, yes, but not my much. That honor would go to Tremere and Giovanni.

The Antediluvian didn't put a dent in the Unions infrastructure. Their off-world assets include entire planets made of machinery and Dyson Spheres sucking the life out of stars. They wouldn't have much difficulty dealing with Gehenna.

Not to mention high-level Archmages are far more weighty than any single Antediluvian. This isn't exactly a topic open for discussion.

>>51382778
That's why you gotta cause Vampire genocide before they all wake up, that way they have nothing to eat.

>>51382872
Was she a hot gypsy slut?

>>51382849

Or just use Forces 9 to make a universal force that permeates the entire universe that turns Vitae into sunlight. Every Vampire is now dead.

Sphere 9 are that ridiculous.

>>51382837

Not at reflexive speed, infinite duration, infinite potency, no awareness requirement it isn't.

>>51382904
>Create the Lawnchair Force
>It makes vampires who feed on humans slowly turn into tasteful porch furniture.

Its like what happened to the Tremere cuz of Saulot. Only with lawnchairs.

>>51382910
Yet hes still not good enough to be the main character.

>>51382808
Is right.

>>51382344
If mages hate vampires and are so much more powerful, can't they literally exterminate them?

>>51382931
>If mages hate vampires and are so much more powerful, can't they literally exterminate them?

One of the greatest flaws in the metaplot. You might as well ask the same thing about the Technocracy. The setting made no sense when writers didn't consider the other gamelines.

CofD is much more coherent.

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>>51382931
I certainly hope my players try.

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>>51382808
Oh please there is no magic that can penetrate Accelerator's vector control.
>>51382837
Accelerator's vector control is an order of a magnitude better. That's like comparing Superman to an ant.

>>51380281
It IS nihilistic, but nihilism is not inherently edgy or dark

>>51382998
I'm too lazy too look him up do you have youtube clips of one of his fight scenes that shows off his powers?

WEEABOO FAGS GET OUT

>>51382931
I can't keep up are we talking owod or nwod?

>>51383056

See >>51382960 for your nearest answer to that question

>>51382998
If he has Reflexive Velocity Mastery he is on par power wise with one of the Mad. Even if his powers out stripe that I'm pretty sure you could just not use aimed spells and hes pretty fucked.
But that whole series seems to exclusively have one trick ponies at extremely low power levels that only use aimed spells.

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>>51383040

>>51382931
>If mages hate vampires and are so much more powerful, can't they literally exterminate them?

Despite the actual rules of all the oWOD game lines, Vampires had (meta)plot protection (tm).

>>51383112

>metaplot protection

Every gameline had that. It's why the setting made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Vampires shouldn't exist in a world run by the Technocracy. Even the others would be fucked. But metaplot.

>>51383029
Not him, but a quick YT search gave me this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLU3Lw29biU

>>51382931
>>51382960
Yeah it's worse than just regular out-muscling them in a fight, that would still be fine in continuity. Mages have the ability to seek them out and plenty of incentive.

>>51382872
>The Ravnos Antediluvian was a woman.
Except literally everywhere he's referred to as a man, and even in the book itself he's called "brother of Zao-Lat"

>The Spirit Nukes almost killed her. Go back and read the source material.

After they dropped the spirit nukes he was still able to drag himself onward, completely charred and with one arm missing, with the words "BLOOD. HUNGER. PAIN" in his head.

And that makes me wonder, what happened to his spirit after he died?

Can anyone help me clear up this Demon the Fallen Question.

In the book it states
"You can spend a point of Willpower to keep a Faith die from being removed from your Faith pool. This represents holding on to Faith through sheer dedication and force of will. You can spend as many Willpower points as there are failed Faith dice, up to your remaining temporary Willpower."
Does this mean I can spend a willpower when I use a evocation to regain the faith spent or when I use faith point to take on apocalyptic form?

>>51383029
He can complete and total control over any thing with a vector.

>>51383225
So he has immunity to aimed spells and literally no other protection against any other form of magic. Seems weak.

>>51383251
The spell doesnt have to be aimed dumbass if it affects reality it has a vector that can be nullified or reversed.

>>51383287
They don't have vectors. They just happen. Spell casting doesn't use vectors in any way shape or form out side of aimed spells and maybe forces. I'm sorry your awkward science show doesn't account for how the game you're asking about works.

>>51383188
Can we stop with the Antediluvian shit? This was discussed already and the Antes lost against the Archdouches.

>>51383112
>>51383157
No one gives a fuck about oWoD.

>>51383225
>>51383251
>>51383287
Can we discuss something productive instead of anime?

>>51383287
vec·tor
ˈvektər/Submit
noun
noun: vector; plural noun: vectors
1.MATHEMATICS/PHYSICS
a quantity having direction as well as magnitude, especially as determining the position of one point in space relative to another.

You're the dumbass, not the other guy.

>>51383319
As long as it includes Mages we can discuss whatever you want

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>>51383287

>dumbass

Okay kiddo. Maybe you should step away from the computer for a bit and take a breather.

>>51383319
Yeah it's not like anniversary editions are making them a huge buck or anything

I honestly don't know how anyone, when Mages exist, still choose to play something else.

>>51383316
>>51383322
You obviously don't anything about physics. Even if a spell doesn't have a vector it's effect does and can be stoped by vector control dumbasses.

>>51383386
You've described an aimed spell. For the like 50th time.

>>51383386
You obviously know nothing about mage. Physics is part of the lie and not relevant to any spell casting that isn't an aimed spell (which travels in the physical world) or a spell intended to effect such forces.

>>51383112
Every RPG has some levels of assumed fiat in making the setting work. Half the D&D races would be wiped out after like 100 years of realistic simulation of the setting, for example. Shadowrun is arguably even more frail given what we know about how quickly society-changing technology moves.

>>51383319
Weeaboos appear to be even worse than Vampire, Changeling, and Mage fags combined.

In changeling, there's a contract that lets you see ghosts if I remember right. Where exactly would ghosts be found? Are they statted at all for changeling?

>>51383465
Shade and Spirit and the Gravewright blessing are the only real mention of ghosts in 'Green' Changeling books. Ghost's are other wise 'bluebook' material for every gameline so don't have many Changeling explicit parts.

>>51383450
What about weaboo mages?

>>51383497
10/10 Would play every time. Jojo's Bizzare Adventure is the best manifestation of Ascension's Avatars ever.

>>51383319
>No one gives a fuck about oWoD.
>owod outsells nwod by a mile
seems legit.

>>51383540
Maybe because its been out for 20 years ever think of that smart guy? The only setting in owod that is better than cod is vtm

>>51383497
You really have to tone down the animu a bit to fit the setting, but it usually works better as mages than other game lines.

>>51383571
uh it still outsells nwod, little one.

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>>51383571
And Mage, obviously.

>What if, instead of a post-modern existentialist setting based on subjective reality, we made the game based on, wait for it-
>Atlantis

I hope someone at WW got fired for that.

>>51383601
That's because NWoD werewolf lacks gems like the Fomori and their Savage Genitalia

>>51383488
it doesn't seem like a particularly useful skill if spirits never even are supposed to come up in the game.

as a gm, is there anything else that it would make sense for the ability to work for? if i wanted to include ghosts in my game, what would be ones that fit well with the changeling theme?

>>51383621
Grognards should learn that new doesn't mean bad.

>>51383662
Screw you consensual reality is awesome and replacing it with generic fantasy based on gnosticism was a mistake.

When the Spirit Science video "our history is not what we think" could be taken at face value as lore for your setting, you should know you're doing something wrong.

>>51383488
You can just use Death 1

>>51383653
>new doesnt mean bad
well that's true but nwod is mostly a downgrade from owod.

>>51383698
The mechanics are objectively better. The setting depends on whether or not you enjoy metaplot. I hate it. Some people like it enough that it makes up for the garbage mechanics. That doesn't make CofD a downgrade.

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Typical Chronicles of Fagness

>>51383694
what's death 1?

>>51383777
the setting itself is usually a downgrade. some of the mechanics were better in nwod 1e but 2e trying to hate fuck the Fate system was not a good direction.

>>51383690
Consensual reality is retarded and never made a lot of sense in regards to the rules or even in general. Awakening has a much better system that actually fits its lore, which is plenty interesting. You're just a biased whiner. I'm actually starting to learn to recognize your posts. Just have to watch for broad and misinformed generalizations and a ridiculous boner for Consensual Reality. Next thing you know you'll have a nickname and people will be saying "IGNORE X" in the OP.

>>51383645
Changelings actually still care about their mortal lives (or should). Ghosts are a problem even mortals deal with, so all the ghost material printed could technically be relevant to your setting, just not the hedge or direct fae concerns.
Ghost Stories is an entire antagonist book of ghosts you can slot into near any chronicle, though I don't know any of the individual ones off the top of my head.


If ghosts aren't a focus of your chronicle or least don't get a story or two tossed to them, Shade and Spirit lower than 4 is pretty much useless. The 4th dot lets you ask questions of a 'ghost like' thing you summon that mirrors the memories of a real dead person (I think only at their grave) and the 5th dot allows you to explore the Underworld as a group, which is a solid alien realm to set adventures in (and has its own book dedicated to it, Book of the Dead).

Due to it usually only being useful if you happen to run into ghosts, I usually avoid it as a player unless the ST wants to include ghosts in the plot for one reason or another.

>>51383803
They're probably referring to the mage arcana. Death 1 would let you cast a spell to see ghosts in twilight. With death 2 you can see them with mage sight and their presence will ping your spider senses.

>>51383465
>Changeling
>Contract
>Acanthus cancels Contract and forces Changeling to ear her pussy

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>>51383822
>im too stupid to get consensual reality.

>>51382778
The Tech won because they had to throw their entire organization into firing that cannon off. That was a fight of entire teams of mages and enlightened personal against ONE of the Antes. Level 5 spheres or not Jesus Christ. you can bet your ass no PC will ever have that kind of back up or support. even if they get level 5 spheres. The Tech had so much equipment they had to use. and the Ante had his dick in his hand.

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>school lets out for the day
>mage shitposting comes out of fucking nowhere to start shitting up what was a comfy thread

>>51383839
I prefer the toolbox-ish setup of CofD. I hate metaplot.

If for no other reason than I don't have to deal with players who argue "but the book says X" about lore for four hours every session, and there gets to be some actual mystery to the setting for the players.

A game about supernaturals should have some fucking mystery in it, and player actions shouldn't be less important than author Mary Sue #3251.

>>51383777
OWoD was famous for how much lore there was. When you remove it it feels empty

>>51383843
>Acanthus cancels Contract and forces Changeling to ear her pussy
I see this posted a lot, did they change the rules about not being able to directly interfere with other supernatural templates?

>>51383839
CofD has great settings and lore. Each game line has plenty of sourcebooks that you can use. You just don't have to use them.

>>51382904
>diff 12 on a d10
We still doing this?

>>51383901

It's not directly interfering with the template. It's being able to nullify any damn Contract. You can't erase the contract without being an Archmaster. Acanthus/Fate Mages are a hard counter to any Changeling.

>>51383912
>CofD has great settings and lore
2/10. try harder

>>51383822
Your opinions are wrong.

>>51383894
>OWoD was notorious for how much lore there was.
FTFY

>>51383869
This is the 12th thread of mage shitposting. I have been counting. I don't know where the fuck they're all coming from.

>>51383933
Personally, I'd just rule that even trying to magically break the contract counts as breaking it and you start taking the penalty before you even finish casting the spell. The Wyrd is psuedo-sentient. It's not like you're casting against a mindless supernatural effect.

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>>51383601
Oh I get it. You still have the taste of a 15 year old boy. Apocalypse is complete shit especially the boring as fuck hippy nature shit vs big bad business and civilization shit the setting has got going on. Forsaken is much better written with far more diverse themes. If I wanted a shitty comedy I'd watch the comedy channel.

>>51383869
Don't blame Mage when it's oWoDfags in general who are shitting up the thread.

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>>51383960
>forsaken
>diverse themes

I fucking assure you if the oWod fags made their own thread it wouldn't last 100 posts before getting archived.

>>51383960
People who like oWoD: People who like lore, weird concepts, and pulp.

People who like nWoD: People who want urban fantasy horror with 'serious themes' and no metaplot.

Though personally I don't think nWoD even carries its theme very well because most of the lore is awful [Changling the Lost not withstanding]

>>51383933
Wait so the Wyrd is somehow the purview of sub-arch levels of Fate now? Bizzare

>>51383980

Are all those women Werewolves?

>>51383976
if it wasnt for owodfags you wouldnt have a thread.

>>51383980
Your stupid reaction image and meme greentext shitposting doesnt make my statement any less truth.

>>51383980
Wow you sure showed that guy with your greentext and tumblr-esque reaction gif. Next time he'll think twice before saying bad things about oWoD.

>>51383928
>diff 12 on a d10
>le didn't read masters of the art and are using lower level spell rules that still involve casting rather than being for arch mastery
We still doing this?

>>51384017
reality makes your statement untrue.

>>51383996

I don't think you get how the Arcana work.

>>51383980
>a Mage enters the thread

>>51384040
fuck mages.

>>51384007
And if it wasn't for Nazis we wouldn't have orange fanta.

>>51384039
Not in 2e I sure don't. In first edition you had to counter the effects of the spells because you couldn't counter spell other supers power directly. This is a complete shift. What section/page of the book is it in that you can now? I need to read up

>>51383992
>People who like oWoD: People who like lore, weird concepts, and pulp.
CofD has all of these things too.

My suspicion that oWoDfags don't actually know much about CofD is ever so slowly solidifying into certainty.

>>51384065
I think this is the crux of the issue. The books tend to assume you'll play the game in a way that practically no one played the game. oWoD was advertised as personal horror but was generally funner [subjective I know] when played as pulp.

nWoD was an attempt, I assume, to capture the original concept but do it right this time. They had mixed results, but either way it wasn't popular with the people who were playing WoD for all the wrong reasons in the first place.

>>51384038
>My opinions are reality
This isn't Ascension, anon. Consensual Reality isn't real.

>>51384086

...You could always counter other supernatural powers directly in 1e. This is something that Dave explicitly mentioned on rpg.net. You can't stop a werewolf from changing or erase a changeling contract. But you CAN prevent the effects. Like nullifying the contract itself.

>>51384107
but most of cofds stuff is shit or just oddly twisted owod stuff that was better before they fucked with it.


and yes im fairly familiar with cofd stuff. i've played many of the games read a good number of their books. i dont hate it, i just think owod was a better setting.

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>>51384037
which is worse the fact the system is so broken you had to make a new one for new powers, or the fact that someone made a broken OP system just for snowflakes? uh owodfag?

>>51384144
In 1e this was always listed as applying an effect counter to the one in play and required identifying said effect. Not actually shutting down other supernatural powers. What you are talking about is ending a Contract before its been completed, violating an aspect of the Wyrd that allowed that deal to form. If that's in the purview of Fate now that's fine, it just seems really different.

>>51384138
and? what fucking themes does forsaken have other than we hunt shit because uh i guess because wolfs should hunt things.

>>51384171
yeah because things never go past 5 in nwod.

>>51384171
Its almost like arch-mastery is a different game and is explicitly called out as such when they did NWoD.
Making a new system of how becoming the universe works makes sense if you know anything about the game at all.

>>51384182

You're not getting this at all. I'm just going to let this slide.

Hey, can somebody take a break from this game line pissing contest to answer a question for me?

I'm working on an Awakening campaign, and I'm wanting my players to go up against a spirit/ghost hybrid (the idea being that the ghost or a crazy murderer fused with death and fear spirits that matched the resonance of his anchor).

Is this an official creature that I can look up or am I going to have to wing it?

>>51384219
You've yet to cite a single book or instance of anything just a forum post of ideas that aren't contradictory to what I'm saying, so feel free to give up.

>>51384171

MAGE HATER ALERT DEEP BOOP BEEP

>>51384236

Cite a book? I got something even better. I will send you to the developer's own words.

https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?675382-The-New-World-of-Darkness-Can-Someone-Give-Me-a-Mage-Metaphysics-101/page11&s=8cebfac2d898025f243ea928d433ace7

Read what he has to say on the matter.

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>>51384233
Ok stop playing that Atlantis garbage and play a real and legitimate game. Pic related

>>51384285
I like Awakening better than Ascension, sorry. Atlantis has grown on me and what's more I never liked Consensual Reality as a concept and I don't feel like having to jury rig my own mechanics just to have a manageable campaign.

>>51384186
>>51384245
Don't be such fucking biased shitheads. Forsaken has themes such as the importance of pack and tribe, balancing your human life with your wolf life, keeping the balance between the physical and the spiritual, dealing with the pure and reconciling the fact you can't kill them yet can't let them kill you and many many others.

>>51384285
Consensual reality means that most of the game is spent whining about what is or isn't within paradigm or what is or isn't vulgar. No, i'd much rather play tAw.

>>51384381
Don't expect rational discussion, anon. They aren't capable of critical thinking or moving beyond the childlike mentality of "old, therefore good".

They also aren't very good at typing, but they are pretty good at putting hyphens where they aren't needed.

You guys are hillarious. But you will never get laid.

>>51384283
His quote/statement doesn't actually match up with the printed text. It only mentions counter spelling spirit powers, not gifts. But that book was a mess so I'll take his word for it for 2e.

>>51384461
But what if I've already gotten laid?

Does this mean I'll never get laid again?

>>51384488
Yes

>>51384488
No only this>>51384503 but you lost all possible chances of ascending to wizardom. Was it worth it anon.

>>51384524
Fuck off hippy wolf fucker furry fuck. Apocalypse is garbage and you are garbage for likeing that shit.

>>51384233
Spirit/Ghost hybrids are Geists, from Geist: the Sin-Eaters

Otherwise just use the Horror rules in CofD to make what you want.

>>51384562

>Fuck off hippy wolf fucker furry fuck

I kinda laughed reading this

>>51384576

That's only a legend

>>51382676
I'm scared sickened and have a boner

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Picked up Mage: The Awakening tonight on a trip to a game shop.
What am I in for? I've dove into Vampire, Prometheus and Hunter but this seems like a whole different thing

>>51384674

I want that guy's turban. And I want it now.

>>51384677

Why can't /v/ ruin their own threads and just leave us alone?!

>>51384576
Even if you reach 30 as a virgin you lose your powers if a semen demon steals them with their vagoo, moron. Read the lore.

>>51384209
arch spheres are old world. art of the masters and imperial mysteries are two different things. owodfags keep bringing archmages into the real world like it's fucking nothing, so don't give me this becoming-the-symbol from nwod as justification for owod's sloppy utilization of its own system

>>51384757
I'd rather have /v/ here than the fucks who won't stop shitposting about Mage.

>>51384787

Don't pretend like you don't enjoy it

>>51384674
>What am I in for?
Mysteries and magic that actually makes sense and has decent rules. If the corebook doesn't have enough lore and such to grab your interests then get some of the other books from the MEGA. Don't let oWoDfags sour you on it before you even give it a real shot.

But which one is better Ascension or Awakening?

>>51384674
kind of the matrix. kind of not. but you get to use your own tools which is pretty cool

>>51384844

BOTH ARE GREAT SHUT THE FUCK UP

>>51384720
Well that sounds awful.

>>51384733
Every time I come across this photo I get excited over how great it is

>>51376116
>shitposting about Mage.
I feel I've come at a bad time to ask about this book.

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>>51384801
MAGE SUPREMACY
MAGE SURPREMACY
MAGE SURPREMACY

>>51384862
>I feel I've come at a bad time to ask about this book.

Bad time? A horrible time. Mage wank has been going on for more than 10 threads now. Magefags are like fucking termites. Perhaps if we find and kill the queen it will stop.

>>51384862
That's the thing. I know there are people who want to actually discuss either of the games, but they get lost in all the shitposting about Mage in general and the two different Mage games.

>>51382630
They killed an Antediluvian after an entire sept of werewolves and three Kuei-Jin Methuselahs had already worn him down.

And that was after applying sun-mirrors for what, days?

>>51384844
They both have different weaknesses and strengths and different people have different tastes so one isn't really better than the other.

Oh my bad. Got all rational there for a second. What I meant to say was Ascension is garbage and only nostalgic neckbeards enjoy it's convoluted and pointlessly excessive lore and the shitty rules have given them so many migraines that by this point they have actual brain damage.

>>51384924

The fight went on for days. The Technocracy had the last say in the matter. They ended it very fast.

>>51382930

Those are both me.

>>51384947
Was there ever any doubt?

>>51384900

>Perhaps if we find and kill the queen it will stop.

But, what would the magefag queen look like?

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Watching vampirefags get cucked is always funny

SUPREME

>>51382678
>The past threads were also discussing Cain vs Archmages. The Archmages won.
What?

Caine has a character sheet. His stats are "You lose" and his health levels are "not even hurt at all".

>>51384996

This was already mentioned. The archspheres can bypass it like it's nothing. Archmages are also stronger than God according to Brucato's lack of judgement.

>>51385021
How do you bypass not even having stats?

>>51384900
Than one of the drones will become Queen loser splat
>>51384995
Amen brother
>>51384996
We already came to a consensus that Archmages are at a higher level than oWod god and probably replaced him.

>>51384996

If you think Cain is a match for a single high-level Archmage. You're an idiot.

>>51385054

Magic?

Go read the previous threads. Cain is not really much of a threat to what Mages can become. God is just a powerful Celestine according to Canon and Brucato's words. Archmages by definition can surpass that. You can't argue against this.

>>51385081
>>51385021
Oh stop fucking lying. Even the Mage books describe the heights of their power as "demigodhood".

I don't know what breed of autism you've caught to relentlessly troll the fucking World of Darkness General for weeks, but I wish it would become terminal.

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>>51385021
>The archspheres can bypass it like it's nothing

No, they can't. You can't bypass "You lose". There is no room for argument on the matter, no room for debate. It's just "you lose". Very formal. Very official. It also says you were adopted, so that's funny too.

>Archmages are also stronger than God

That, at least, is proven false. Hang on, lemme go back a thread or two to where I proved this wrong...ah, here we go, in pic. This is everything relevant that Masters of the Art has to say about godhood. It is clearly describing a very limited, classical version of divinity, not the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent version of God as described in Judeo-Christian mythology. In fact, it outright states that while an Archmage can be godlike, he or she is NOT a real god.

I'm sorry that the World of Darkness ins't as euphoric as you want it to be, fedorafag. And understand that I say that as an atheist.

>>51385081
>God is just a powerful Celestine according to Canon and Brucato's words. Archmages by definition can surpass that. You can't argue against this.
And none of that beats "You lose".

An Archmage gets into a conflict with Caine? He loses.

>>51385081
We need an edit of Cain's sheet that says "You fucking lose unless you're a Mage"

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>>51385081
>LALALALALALALALALALA I CAN'T HERE YOU!!! CAIN IS THE MOST POWERFUL BEING ON THE PLANET!

>>51385131

Everyone here is going to disregard you. We already talked about this. You're late to the discussion. Cain lost. Good bye.

>>51385153
>>51385139
Just so nobody else is fooled by your lies.

>>51385139

You're going against Brucato. The biggest dumbass of all the writers. It's because of him that you're wrong. Go complain to him instead. Cain lost. Have a nice day.

>>51384834
>>51384851
So far it sounds pretty interesting. I wasn't expecting such a large magic section and from what little bit I read in the introduction it sounds like it can get pretty crazy. I think if I remember right hunters are known to not even fuck with mages because they're so dangerous.

>>51384900
>>51384912
That's insane, though it does make me want to check out the first edition of Mage as well at some point.

Also how do you guys feel about Geist? I was kind of hoping for that to be at the shop since the concept sounded interesting but it was Mage or Mummy

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How come none of the other weaker splatfags try to combat MAGE SUPREMACY? Are the vampfags the only ones who aren't cowards?

>>51385180
>You're going against Brucato.

"Masters of the Art" is going against Brucato. Y'know, the actual, official published material.

>>51385081
I am reading the previous threads and it's just you going "Cain can't take an archmage, nobody else will argue this" over and over without evidence.

>>51385139

>not the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent version of God as described in Judeo-Christian mythology

That's not the actual Over-God of the WoD setting. That's the deity that cursed Cain. The supreme deity lies in the realm Mages ascend to.

>>51385203

Are you saying M20 isn't published material? You're a moron.

>>51385202
Werewolves know for fact that they're at the low end of the overall power totem pole; that's part of the appeal of the setting.

None of the other splats are popular enough to have a significant enough fanbase that feels like arguing the point.

Vampire is by a significant margin the most popular and played splat, so of course it has the largest proportion of players willing to step up.

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.>>51385180
>>51385153
Dude, shut the fuck up, seriously. You obviously have never played because you act like this is all mind-blowing information, this argument that we're having about this lawn-chair horseshit, is literally as old as the Internet. It was solved years ago, it's solved now, and it's always going to be solved. Cain beats anything else in WoD, it says so in Gehenna, one of the last supplements produced for oWoD, power levels are stupid, white rooms are stupid and you should just go jerk off with some fucking sandpaper.
>>51385199
Geist's main issue is that they're really aimless, they have few good antagonists and they really don't have much to do besides Sixth Senseing it up.

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>>51385144

>>51385203

Sorry. God is described as a Celestine in M20. Mages can become Celestines in Masters of the Art. They can also go further and cause Big Bangs to happen.

>>51385239
And that still doesn't beat "You Lose."

>>51385239
Doesn't matter, You still lose against Cain, Seven-Fold Curse, God, Etc. Go fuck a rock until your penis turns to pulp.

>>51385234

>Cain beats anything else in WoD

Not really. No.

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>>51385238
MAGED
A
G
E
D

>>51385238
That might mean more if the character sheet was even an official one to begin with.

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The truly horrible thing is that I don't know if we're pretending or not anymore

>>51385239
>God is described as a Celestine in M20.

Where. Like, please post a screencap of this.

I'll wait.

>>51385265

>Seven Fold Curse
>Made by a Celestine
>Something Mages by definition can surpass
>Yeahhhhhhhhh

Sorry. Your Seven Fold Curse isn't that almighty. Not to mention it isn't hard for a mage to work around it.

>>51385279
Fate magic has so many interesting uses.

>>51385274
see
>>51385238
Ever get confused, go look at it again.
>>51385282
It was, got published and everything. If shit like Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand, Blood Treachery and >>51385298 Whoop, no they can't says so in the back, doesn't say so in Mage. Try again.

>>51385301
Surely you mean Entropy

>>51385265
This 'the IRL bible is cannon to white wolf published material' shit about God being the best is getting old pfast. What kind of katana loving atheist forum is this?

>>51385298
It's true. Lilith worked around it in Gehenna. It's the only thing convincing worried Vampire fags that Cain is DA BEST. When he's just not.

>>51385315

It says "unless your a archmage"

Nice.

>>51385355
Wait, where, oh wait, nope, just pulling it out of your ass like always. Go back to D&D, they sometimes let the special kids play at the Y.

>>51385315
>It was, got published and everything.

It was "published" on Mr. Gone's character sheets, a fan site. he specifically cites it as being originally made by another fan going by the name of Vyran.

It's not and has never been official.

>>51385298
He doesn't need the sevenfold curse when he has You Lose.

The sevenfold curse is just gravy.

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Masquerade fags can't get over the fact that Cain is complete shit compared to Archmages. They're fucking autistic as fuck.

>>51385365

Nope. Click on the above "YOU LOSE" sheet Anon posted. Read it.

>>51385321
>Who knew that having some wraknesses and restraints was good for game design!

Vampire has both of those. Running an Elder game is like running a game of Epic Level D&D. You only do it if you just want to kill stuff without an real worry. An actual game of Vampire is played with neonates and ancillae, who are notably more limited. Ancillae and neonates lose to even novice werewolves every time unless they're really lucky and have a chance to prepare. Their best defense is to just stay away from wherever Lupines are and not fight them in the first place.

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>>51385366
Cain's character sheet isn't canon after all? Fucking priceless, man. Mages shitting on Vampires since forever.

VAMPIRE BUTTHURT REACHED MAX LEVEL

VAMPIRE ANAL OBLITERATION BEST DAY OF MY LIFE

>>51385367
The Sevenfold Curse isn't even a metaphysical thing that's part of Caine. It's God Himself letting Caine know that if someone tries to kill Caine, God has his back.

>>51385447

>God has his back

Until an Archmage proceeds to rape God's tight anus.

>>51385430
Caine's "you lose" isn't from that character sheet. It's from Berlin by Night (that is, the original "you lose" line), Gehenna, and further extrapolated from the fact that Methuselahs like ur-Shulgi, who are by a considerable margin weaker than Caine, and even the Antediluvians themselves, are described in abstract terms that make their utter dominance over the material and magical world pretty clear.

And again, Caine is beyond even them.

>>51385468
Except, again, Archmages do not have that power. They're descrbed as demigods and explicitly stated to NOT be Gods.

I think I've read Masters of the Art a bit more closely than you have at this point.

Still waiting on you to cite where in M20 it states that God is merely a Celestine...

>>51385491
Keep saying shit, brother. Ascension doesn't give a shit about your "you lose" line.

>>51385499
Which really just supports my point...Elder vampires are considerably stronger than top-tier werewolves, but players aren't usually playing elder vampires, they're playing neonates and ancillae, who are by a notable margin weaker than even young werewolves, let alone pack alphas or whatever the werewolf equivalent of elder vampires are.

>>51385516
Prove it.

>>51385516
and Masquerade doesn't give a shit about Ascension.

Why, it's almost like these games were never designed to work together in the first place!

>>51385509

I notice how you combined multiple pages in your previous post >>51385139 trying to apply different definition to different beings.

You are trying so hard. You are now invalidated.

>>51385577
Ascension is more important to the metaplot than masquerade is so in any conflicts of lore Ascenion trumps and supercedes it.

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Archmages vs Antediluvians again. This is like the third time. It always ends in the Archmages favor.

>>51385608
Prove it. Show me in a published book where it says Ascension always trumps Masquerade

It doesn't

>>51385576
Because a line from a Vampire book saying "No vampire PC can beat Caine" doesn't beat an actual side by side of known feats and abilities. Masters of the Art isn't my cup of tea either [I prefer power levels to cap around city-buster personally] but any Mage who can do half the shit archspheres say he can would shit all over Caine.

This is about as stupid as using the Dragonball RPG's stats for Superman [which lists him weaker then Krillin] as evidence that Goku could beat him in a fight.

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Aren't Archmages capable of creating universes and destroying galaxies? How is Cain going to compete against that, exactly?

>>51385596
It was specifically in response to someone claiming that Masters of the Art suggests that YHWH is merely a Celestine. It was done to prove that, in fact, nowhere does it ever suggest that.

I'm actually citing sources and providing them for everyone to see. You're just going on about how euphoric you are and enlightened by your own intelligence.

>>51385679
No, someone claimed that M20 suggests that YHWH is merely a Celestine, and then that M20 supercedes Masters of the Art by virtue of having a later publishing date.

>>51385679

You mixed and mashed differing definitions with differing entities. That's not a good way to "prove" someone wrong.

>>51385679
I don't know that anyone ever claimed that Masters of the Art claimed that God was a Celestine.

The argument is that 'God' is just an extremely powerful spirit, just one with more belief behind it then any other. This isn't necessarily canon, its merely an in-game theory, but its hinted at in the Celestial Chorus books and I want to say some places in Werewolf too but I haven't read much Werewolf.

>>51385677
He doesn't need a how. They lose, because the rules say so.

Yes, this is as stupid as it sounds. Welcome to the top tier of oWoD power.

>>51385647
No. My original point was that werewolf fans don't get into Archmage v. Antediluvian/Caine fights because as strong as elder werewolves are, they're not playing on nearly the same field.

But that's okay, because they utterly dominate at the level of the game where it's actually fun to play (neonate/ancilla level, in VtM terms).

>>51385661
When I bring up Masters of the Art, it's usually wthin the context of the fact that nothing in it makes me think that God is merely a Celestine, and that an Archmage can surpass God.

Man this argument is convoluted.

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This is page 487.

>>51385754

>God is a spirit

Brucato shitting on other splats once again

>>51385736
The you lose character sheet shouldn't be taken seriously unless you're a Vampire.

>>51385718
Actually checking through M20 now, and it straight up says "for Archmastery stuff, Masters of the Art is canon, use that."

>Rumor has it that levels of Archmastery exist for each Sphere, granting abstract powers thay even gods might envy. In game terms, these would be the EXTREMELY optional Sphere Ranks 6-10. Such powers are beyond almost every mage alive, take centuries to attain, and turn chronicles into blasted wreckage. Groups that want to bring such powers into play can find them in the sourcebook Masters of the Art. We cannot, however, overemphasize the destructive potential of these, again, OPTIONAL Sphere Ranks. Though technically canon, they should be avoided for all but the most outlandish Mage chronicles.

>>51385754
That ranks God at the top. It doesn't say Mages can reach him, let alone surpass him.

>>51385677

Can Archmages actually do all that? Why is this even a discussion if they can...?

>>51385823
It doesn't say "You lose (but only if you're a vampire)".

>>51385865
Because Caine's character sheet has funny words written on it. Thats literally the only argument vampfags have.

>>51385754

Jesus is a Celestine. Jesus and the Holy Spirit is God according to the Bible. ...The Judeo-Christian God is a Celestine.

Does Brucato hate Masquerade?

>>51385851
M20 also references God hundreds of times, and is incredibly unsure and noncommittal about who and what God is and what God's deal is.

>>51385882
>Caine's character sheet has funny words written on it.
That's a funny way to say "the rules say I'm wrong".

WELP. Brucato indirectly settled this mess in the favor of Mage. About the only good thing he has done.

Can we talk about something else now?

>>51385918
In a crossover chronicle with Mage, any of the complex cosmologies employed by other splats are by definition reduces to merely the result of mass-sleeper belief. Everything the other splats believe is merely another part of Consensual Reality.

I really wish we could get this concept across, that other splats lore doesn't mean shit for dick when its become part of a crossover chronicle with a subjective universe powered by Bullshittium.

Vampire is a game about being a damned abomination living a twilight existence of intrigue and personal horror.

Mage is a game where mad scientists dissect gods for fun then team up with buddhist wuxia fighters and hermetic magi to fight the Men in Black.

They are not supposed to be thematically compatible.

>>51385882
No, the argument we have is that God Himself stated that anyone who harms Caine shall be harmed seven times, and anyone who kills Caine shall be killed seven times, and nothing in Mage has ever suggested that any Mage even approaches God's power. Mages still need spheres, God doesn't. And he certainly "for real" exists, because we're talking about the actual Cain, who slew the actual Abel, who were both the sons of actual Adam and Eve, who lived in the actual Garden of Eden. This is all made clear by Vampire's lore.

Literally the only thing magefags have is the subjective opinion of some mages that God is merely a Celestine that any Archmage can equal, but that is not supported by any part of the World of Darkness' actual overall lore - least of all by their supposed trump card "Masters of the Art", which makes it clear that while Archmages can become godlike, they cannot become capital-G divnities, just impressed facsimiles thereof.

>>51385936
Celestine, i believe.

>>51382780
lol. no