Problem arising from inventor player

As long as he just makes a motorized carriage and not a full blown mustang then we're good.

>>51357996
Try him for witchcraft.

>>51357996
Inventions depend heavily on existing infrastructure and means of production. He can be Leonardo, but he can't be Henry Ford, because that's not the world he lives in. Having to make each part by hand, having imprecise tools for making measurements, having access to poor-quality metal and probably no rubber, and in any case having no good roads to drive on will all make his ambition essentially impossible no matter how high he rolls.

Combustion engines need fuel. Remove all viable fuel sources. Also remove TiO2 and photocells, magnetic materials and other alternative sources of energy. Then, revert those changes and kick this nigger out of the group.

I fucking hate nerds. None of them have real scientific knowledge, they're just memeing little shits that wanna show off their undergrad physics.

Fuck off until you get an MSc Cory you dumb little cunt

>>51357996
The car didn't materialise out of Henry Ford's mind just like that. The car was based on a hundred years of industrial advancement.

Like >>51358052 put it; inventions are built ontop of previously existing technology whether they're an advancement of said tech or simply needs it to be built. There's also the issue of the player knowing about all these real-life inventions; it's meta knowledge. The character should be good at reiterating upon already existing stuff; like building an exceptionally cleverly designed trap or lock system.

>>51357996
What exactly is the problem here? What's so wrong with your player having an impact on the campaign world?

>>51358100
You can't really get rid of wood. The real issue is that if he only has access to Renaissance-era tools and materials, he's not going to be able to make any engine more complex than an aeolipile. Making a steam engine with pistons is much harder than making a gun.

>>51358138
Wen you're trying to have goblins and orcs fight men with swords, then one of those people pulls out a full auto rifle capable of mowing down an army.

suddenly scaling and giving the whole party a proper challenge becomes a whole lot more difficult.

>>51358182
G
I
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G
U
D

>>51358217
F
A
G
G
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>>51358182
How the hell is he making a rifled barrel when nobody else in his time and place can even figure out a simple cannon or petard? It's just too much of a leap.

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>>51358232
>>51358217
Jesus Christ, I hate people like you.
> What do you mean, I can't invent a laser rifle in a world of swords and sorcerery? You're taking away my player agency! Help, help, I'm being opressed!
Fucking kill yourself.

>>51358241
Well then it comes to the whole issue of "Whats allowed to be invented" if you can only modify existing things its not much of an invention is it.

At what level should you allow new things to be made

>>51357996
Have his inventions fall into the wrong hands, of course.

Have someone see him use them, and then have then used agaisnt the party fa half dozen sessions later. Or worse, have a dickass thief be hired to steal them. and then if they catch the thief, ahve said dickass thief tell him, "i have no idea why you're so surprised. You wanted to make an impact...well, you have, and the rulers are now offering contracts to have you killed or captured and imprisoned. That's what happens when you upset the balance of power, you stupid fuck."

>>51358257
>muh bland fantasy world
>muh game of inconsequential dungeon delvers
>muh railroad
Learn how to fucking DM outside of the box. Old school gaming was about putting the players into the world and letting them craft their own legends. It's what separates ttrpgs from video games.

>>51358304
Ha thats good, but knowing these pieces of shit that do this he would likely complain that he's being unfairly targeted and that the GM is just being childish

>>51358171
Why would he need to get rid of wood? Wood can't be used, realistically, for fuel. Logging would deforest whole nations to meet supply.

As for guns, they've had them since the middle ages, they're not useful until you get good enough gunpowder and barrels. Both can be prevented easily

>>51358315
> If I can't pull a machine gun out of nowhere, it's railroading and a video game
Did your parents have any children that lived? I bet they regret it.

>>51358316
That's why you make sure you have an appropriate time lapse beteween use/creation of incention and theft/attempted assassination/kidnapping.

If the GM is REALLY good, he gets the player's own party to assassinate him to sell him out.

I have never seen an "inventor" player do anything but shit on worlds and games.

>>51358316

Well he's also singling himself out and announced his intention to take over, so other people will too

>>51357996
have you considered just killing the character in a tragic critical? the enemy gets a 20/6/100 whatever you use, and lands a blow so deadly they die.
Do this when they're at half health.

This will all seem organic, like you didnt intend for it to happen, and it solves your problem. the only thing left is to deal with his leftover inventions.

>>51358315
there's a difference between crafting your own legend and turning yourself into the centerpiece of the game.

"Inventor" in most games is the same as "wizard" in D&D - a dickhead who steals the spotlight for his own gain and can't be a team player.

>>51358352
>the amount of time and resources required to make a machine gun from scratch
>when it's never been invented before
>pulled out of nowhere
Sounds like you have no grasp of how to realistically reign things in. Also, is your game strictly combat? How is a machine gun any worse than magic in terms of power creep?

>>51358284
There are no "new" things. All but the very simplest tools somehow dependent on tools that already exist. You can't skip a step on the tech tree.

To avoid metagaming, also make sure to force anyone playing an inventor to have to navigate a lot of dead ends. All the greatest inventors in history wasted a lot of time and effort on stuff that was never going to work, because that's how you make progress. They didn't know in advance what would work and what wouldn't, because they were venturing into territory that nobody knew about for sure.

>>51357996
As mentioned before here >>51358052 and >>51358117 you need to invent a lot of in between things before you can invent a car if you are starting at the carriage. And then there are the issues of manufacturing and maintenance. Even if he can make cars or even an assembly line to make them it's not like there are many mechanics around to keep them running. Any of his stuff that's even close to modern should be treated as strange and wonders artifacts that almost no one else can make heads or tails of.

>>51358340
Because wood-burning engines are the logical first step. You're worrying about this guy making 21st-century technology when he's really going to manage 17th century technology at best.

>>51357996
>...most of them are ludicrous, things that don't obey physics.

Yeah, because magic and spellcasting conform so well to the laws of physics.

The easiest way for you to handle it is by pointing out that just because he can conceive of something doesn't mean that he can afford to make it happen.

"Ok you want to make a car? Well the first one's going to cost 100,000 GP to get up and running because no one's ever done it and starting from scratch is expensive."

Just look at the F-35 program, we've been able to build planes for over a hundred years and yet building a new iteration of this existing technology still costs thousands of times more than building a copy of an existing model. Innovation is expensive.

Along the same lines, conceiving of it doesn't give him the skill to construct it himself. Just because he's an inventor doesn't mean he has the blacksmiths skills to forge his car's frame, or even the carpentry skills to make one out of wood for instance.

>>51358427
>Yeah, because magic and spellcasting conform so well to the laws of physics

the point of magic is to bend the laws of reality

>Just because he's an inventor doesn't mean he has the blacksmiths skills to forge his car's frame, or even the carpentry skills to make one out of wood for instance.

Because i would love to have to roll 4 different checks to make one thing, nothing like artificial difficulty

>>51358412
And lets not forget the cost of these things. Look up how much steel is in a car and consider how much all that would cost. And to make a car by hand alone would take years depending on what tools you'd have to create to start building one.

>>51358371
>I have never seen an "inventor" player do anything but shit on worlds
Sounds like a serious case of GM narcissism. "It's shitting on MY precious world!"
>>51358380
Ah, yes. Throw that tantrum and just kill the pcs whenever they do something you don't like. Class act.

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>>51357996
Just make sure the inventions are wacky one of a kind things that look like crazy inventions rather than a finished product. He's not creating a modern car, but a rickety metal box that belches black smoke/steam and creaks and groans with a dozen levers would be fun. He can't make a machine gun, but an aquebus would work.

And don't him just say "I invent X" and roll the dice. If he wants a fucking car he'd better find some good craftsmen, all the proper materials, and the time to make all the necessary parts. All of them should take time and effort on the player's part and it should me a small quest in itself involving roleplay rather than a single roll.

And if he wants to become king of the world with his inventions emphasise how fucking hard it is to produce these things in a pre-industrial society. And even if he invents the tools to industrialize its not going to change overnight. It could be an end goal for him to create his own factory and gain fame for producing a number of cool items no one else has though which I think would be a fair compromise for him to have an impact without changing the whole setting.

From what you've said though he sounds like the worst kind of player who is using meta knowledge to try and powergame. Spell it out for him that you don't like him trying to change the entire setting through meta knowledge and while you don't want to kill his character concept you're not going to let him create an industrial revolution by himself. If he wants to play a cool inventor, he'd like the stuff I've listed above. If he bitches about you restricting him, then he's a powergaming dick.

>>51358462
And of course the second car is going to cost almost as much as the first one. With no interchangeable parts and nothing but a single prototype that's been kludged together by one guy, only one guy who knows anything about the care and maintenance of engines, probably a very inefficient engine that goes slower than a horse-drawn vehicle, problems with the design that will only emerge once it's been used for a while, and once again no roads suitable for using cars on, it's not like this shit is going to change the world any time soon.

>>51358519
This is very helpful and well thought out, good on you

>>51357996
>he's not really causing any problems with the other players.
So what's the issue?
>His first thing he decided to make was a car
That's going to be an investment. Of time and materials.
>when this player proposed being an inventor i thought it was cool
You made your bed.
>Now in game he's constantly looking to "invent" modern day conveniences to revolutionize the world and crown himself the leader because of his creations.
What if a wizard player said the same thing? Or anyone really? It's his goal. Doesn't need to happen for a LOOOOONG time. What players have NEVER wanted to end the campaign in charge of something, or everything, at least once?

>>51358523
I personally would let it be better than a horse-drawn vehicle just for the sake of fun and considering the price tag attached to it it's not like it would be game breaking because you can just have a wizard shit out a flying carpet.

>>51357996
I had a similar idea but instead of making machine guns and stuff I always wanted to play a modern chemist sent back in time and uses chemistry to pretend to be a wizard with things like thermite. Just using their knowledge of chemicals. They wouldn't know how to build an assault rifle but they could figure out something like a basic cannon or musket they'd have to reload between shots. Which isn't much good when you're surrounded by 5 guys except for shock and awe value.

Depends on what kind of game people are wanting to run though, it's not the kind of thing to play if everyone is wanting a full on realistic historical game.

>>51357996
What system?

I assume GURPS because there's actually a science skill. GURPS has specific rules from TL advancing inventions. They are much more difficult to accomplish. Also, you need to put him through the real process of R&D, which GURPS has rules for. Regardless his individual skill, unless you gave him the cinematic inventor advantage, he cannot make things like that without a tremendous amount of resources, time, and support from other scientists and technical assistants.

>>51357996
>His first thing he decided to make was a car right away and he maxed out his science skill so he's practically incapable of failing any check.

>I attempt to invent a car
>roll passes, you have a car

??????
This is your fault and the result of bad GMship. buck up.

>>51358626
If this is a setting where wizards can shit out flying carpets, why are we making motor vehicles? Why aren't we changing the world with flying carpets?

>>51358460

The point you are missing here is that a blacksmith can make a sword. A metalworker can NOT make a car. The vast majority of modern conveniences we take for granted take (or at one point, took, which is relevant here) dozens of people, with different skillsets and expertise to make. As you increase the complexity of a device, you decrease a single individual's ability to create it.

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>>51358182
>Wen you're trying to have goblins and orcs fight men with swords, then one of those people pulls out a wand capable of vaporizing an army.
>suddenly scaling and giving the whole party a proper challenge becomes a whole lot more difficult.

>>51358304
For the most part, this is fine.
>>ahve said dickass thief tell him, "i have no idea why you're so surprised. You wanted to make an impact...well, you have, and the rulers are now offering contracts to have you killed or captured and imprisoned. That's what happens when you upset the balance of power, you stupid fuck."
is where you're getting pissy and passive aggressive. Your wording here makes you seem like an unlikable cunt.

>>51358854
Bruh. Caster superiority is fine. Normies shouldn't be able to do anything.

Inventions need to be based on previously existing ones. Somebody today isn't going to make a FTL engine - they are making storage devices where you can store the entirety of the library of Alexandria on something the size of a penny.

Additionally, in a world with magic people wont care as much about a self-propelled iron chariot that made horrible noises that sounded as if it had a demon stored in its trunk. If they need to go somewhere they will just tame a Gryphon, buy a flying carpet or use a boat.

>>51358854
Wizards have limited spell slots so that's balanced.
Nothing stops the alchemist from bringing extra cart of bombs or three.

>>51358460
>because i would love to roll 4 different checks to make one thing
>nothing like artificial difficulty AMIRITE

you have no fucking clue how things are built in the real world, do you

>>51357996
- no roads
- enough fuel for one car, maybe a dozen tops
- massive backlash from existing power structure
- even more massive backlash from the gods who feel threatened by rationalism robbing them of worshippers
- after making 50 genius inventions he's gonna get overconfident, attempt an even more revolutionary one and fail horribly, possibly burning his lab and notes in the process and setting back his progress by a decade
- how is he maxing his science skill if he's got nothing to build on since he wants to be so much better than everyone
- let him make the car and discover car accidents

>>51358948
Well, it's just most of those check can be passed by Taking 10.

>>51358948
Games don't model realism so well. Crazy I know but it's true.

>>51358460
>nothing like artificial difficulty

How exactly is that "artificial?" How many people employing specialized skills do you think it takes to build a car? Hint it's more than 4.

>>51358947
>Nothing stops the alchemist from bringing an extra cart of bombs or three.

Money. Money stops the alchemist from bringing an extra cart of bombs or three.

>>51358304
Have somebody in a position of power give him the 'carrot and stick' treatment.

Carrot: 'I've heard tale of your wondrous inventions and I had to see them for myself. Truly you are a genius! Let me be your patron. I can outfit you with a workspace and all the resources you need. All I ask in return is that I have the chance to see any of your amazing contraptions before anyone else and to use those that I find pleasing.'

Stick: 'If you won't work for me, you will have a hard time finding anyone who will sell to you. You are just a vagabond tinkerer. My family has been here for generations.'

Or

'It looks like you use many flammable materials. It would be a shame if your workshop burned with all of your amazing toys inside.'

Players often get into the mindset that the world is there playground and there are no consequences to their actions. A good GM uses cause and effect to create a world that seems alive.

If some crazy adventurer starts building tools/machines/weapons that are steps beyond what anyone else has, then powerful people will come knocking. If I build a cold fusion generator in my garage, the government will become very interested in me. To play it any other way is unrealistic.

>>51359154
THIS!
These are logical, not dickass ways of reigning in an uncontrolled player that keep the game and the worldorganic. And, as a bonus, you've given the player some obstacles to overcome if he wants to achieve his goal.

>>51358975
You need to re-read the rules. You can't take 10 on a check to do something you're not trained or experienced in.
If a player tries to do something that's literally never been done before in the history of ever then letting them take 10 at all is just bad DMming.

>>51358947
I'm not sure if you're just baiting/arguing to argue or if you're legitimately too stupid to understand the comparison.

You'll notice that I used the example of a wand instead of just casting a spell, a wand is basically extra spell slots since you can cast with it without using your limited personal reserves.
Nothing stops the wizard from bringing an extra cart of wands of fireball or three.

>>51357996
>Now in game he's constantly looking to "invent" modern day conveniences to revolutionize the world and crown himself the leader because of his creations.

1) Kick him in the nuts for being a munchkin faggot.

2) Kick him out of your group.

Optional) Wish him luck on finding a group to put up with his horse shit.

>>51357996
>Have the religious police come get him, since his inventions is agains god

>>51358950
>car accident
Lets have him make a 20DC Steering check every time or crash (to death, possibly)

>>51357996

Are you me mate? Cause i have a player who does pretty much the exact same thing. My solution is to say sure you can try, and then make it realistically difficult. Oh so you have an amazing roll, well thats great, you built a prototype. It failed, but you learned and next time you try you'll get a little bit closer. Of course each of these rolls represent months in game since you can't just build something over night from scratch, so thats that for a while until you get to make your next attempt. Now back to our regularly scheduled game. Of course i let him make smaller things, toss him a bone here and there to keep him content, but that fucker ain't gonna make his stupid shit no matter how long he works at it. I'm just gonna keep stringing him along until he gets the idea.

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>>51358030
This

>>51358316
>he would likely complain that he's being unfairly targeted and that the GM is just being childish
Oh, the horror.

>>51358315
Old school gaming also had realistic roleplay in a fleshed out, logically consistent world, not rolls based on "points in science" to check if you "build car". If a player wanted to invent a car, he'd have to do every step it'd take to build one irl. It also had 'lightning strikes you, no save' for faggot players. Why are nu school DM's such massive pussies? Is it estrogen in the water?

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>>51359598
Yeah! Show him for trying to have bad wrong fun!

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In your usual medieval setting, what's likely the most outstanding and out-of-nowhere invention is the chainmail. Other armors developed from earlier forms of protection, but chain has no precedent. Some truly visionary celt made something which would be a relevant armor for about 1700 years.

Anyway, these sites show the kind of inventions your player might build:

http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com.br/2009/03/early-machine-technology.html

http://www.marlymachine.org/

http://www.notechmagazine.com/2009/11/floating-citadels-powered-by-wind-and-water-mills.html

http://www.notechmagazine.com/2009/07/guido-vigevanos-wind-car-1335.html

http://dmd.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/author/dmd/database/author_list

http://www.notechmagazine.com/2014/05/precolumbian-causeways-and-canals.html
Swamp agriculture, from time to time /tg/ seeks to build swamp kingdoms.

I sugest that you make the player busy with the amount of consequences and colateral effects of his invention: guilds trying to assassinate one of the dreaded '"innovators" which colapse trades, rulers confiscating it, witchcraft acusations that make common folk sheer away from him etc.

Inventing the bicycle, sailing wagons on rails or press alone is going to be huge that way.

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>>51359706
That thing looks awesome.

>>51358284
Invention doesn't exist within a vacuum, everything is based off something previous. You think James Watt just wheeled out a brand new steam engine from thin air? The basis of the technology had been around for like 50 years.

You can't go from Renaissance era firearms to modern artillery without something in between.

>>51359687

I let him have his fun. I let him make all sorts of ridiculous shit. I'm not letting the man make a fucking nuke. I'm not letting him make a fucking Apache helicopter. I'm not letting him make mother fucking three-d printing. I've already let him make guns and shit, which has been a giant pain in my ass to try and homerule. I feel no regret for not letting him do all his bullshit. The man needs to stop being a fucking retard.

>>51360234
Never mind then.

>>51358182
>Wen you're trying to have goblins and orcs fight men with swords,
Don't try that. That's incredibly boring and brainless. If this is seriously your intent as GM, just stop, you're making the world a worse place by perpetuating this stale, soulless schlock.

>>51360234
Play something that's not D&D.

>>51360431
uhh, so cliche
> muh cliches
> its been done before

maybe the GM's goal is a game where the players are meant to be weak for stories sake

>>51359687
Please tell me you're not actually as stupid as you sound.

>>51358854
Anti magic zones can negate spells
anti gun zones trigger lefties

other equally or more powerful mages can step in to settle thing
no other people have guns at all

your logic fails sir

>>51360594
So you have no argument displaying the tactic of just passive-aggressively lying to a player about things in a game of pretend positively? Good contribution, faggot.

>>51357996
>His first thing he decided to make was a car right away and he maxed out his science skill so he's practically incapable of failing any check.
That doesn't mean he can make a car. You stupid fuck.

>>51357996
>Everyone who showed up to play characters in a medieval fantasy setting: Gee, it sure would be easier to get around if we had horses, and all that loot would be a lot lighter if it was in a wagon pulled by those horses. Where can we get some horses? How much does a wagon cost?
>That Guy: Fuck horses. I invent a car for myself derp.
>Everybody else: I guess we'll just wait for your retardation to run it's course instead of playing the game.
>Me: Alright asshole, roll 1d100.
>That Guy: Hah! 95 BITCH!
>Me: Congratulations, you have successfully invented the External Combustion Engine. It functions perfectly in this regard, enveloping you in a massive explosion. On one hand the explosion is of such impressive force and magnitude that it makes the local Archmage feel insecure about the power of his wand. On the other hand it disintegrates you so thoroughly that scholars studying the explosion in subsequent years will be forced to coin the phrase "vaporize" to adequately quantify the effect. You may now roll a new character.
>Everyone else: Thank fucking god, now about those horses...

>>51360951
oh boy *clap* *clap* you're really contributing here kid, did you shit post that all on your own? or did your mommy help you cause you can't read?

go back under the rock where you belong

>>51360684
Your autism is truly astounding.

First argument: Using modern, real-world objects as an inspiration for inventions in-character is a textbook example of meta-gaming.
Second argument: Assuming that you can invent something successfully because you have a high "science" skill or whatever is also meta-gaming. AS IS assuming that your character's intelligence score means they can solve the problems associated with actually inventing something.
Third Argument: The DM isn't obligated to provide your character with information that they could not possibly know. If a character is attempting to accomplish something entirely original and new there's no way for them to know if it's even possible. Withholding information is just good GMsmanship. On the flip side the player expecting to know with certainty whether or not their pioneering efforts are even possible is, once again, meta-gaming.

Now shut up and take your meds so the adults can talk in peace.

>>51357996
Rule zero. That's the primary solution to all supreme player tardery. The DM isn't supposed to allow all sorts of player bullshit, especially when it'd disrupt the flow of the game. Furthermore, ask him to tone that shit down. There's no shame in admitting your game isn't built to handle cars, machine guns, and shit like that. The science skill, or whatever was also likely not intended to be used in that fashion. He's not clever, allow him to work with period-appropriate inventions that may be inferior and unwieldy.

>>51361514
I know I'm being trolled and replying to your own post is douchy but screw it.

Here's an example of how "inventing" in a fantasy setting can be done well.
Played a game where our wizard was looking for quick ways to make some extra coin at 1st level. He realized that Prestidigitation allows you to "Chill... up to a cubic foot of non-living matter." He then reflected that "cold water is a more satisfying way to slake your thirst than warm water. So I bet cold ale would be better than warm ale."
He tested his theory at the local tavern by offering to "Chill" patrons' drinks, "First one's Free!" The rabble was quite enamored with the idea. For each subsequent drink he'd charge a silver piece and made about 20 gold for an hours "work" spamming his at-will spells.
The next logical step was to find some way of enchanting an object to duplicate the results. Between adventures he partnered up with a more powerful wizard and made a enchanted prototype Ice Chest, basically a minor magical refrigerator but it needed to be recharged every day.
Not wanting to give up adventuring entirely he took the prototype around looking for people to buy it off of him (no patents or IP in this setting) until the thieves guild got interested. They paid him a one time price of 2000 GP for the prototype and another 2000 GP to teach three of their spell casters how to make it. He screwed his partner, the older wizard over by agreeing and got himself a powerful enemy and 4000 gold at 3rd level which he was very happy with because he's not a shit-lord.
Between adventures at around 5th level we go into the tavern and lo and behold they've got an Icebox and cold ale coming from it. The thieves guild took the idea and ran with it because they had the money and resources. The world moved on with magical refrigerators and a good time was had by all because the Wizard actually role-played instead of being a derpy asshole about things.

>>51361926

Different anon. This is reasonable. "I have high int/crafts so I should be able to make a car cause I rolled good" is not. Surely you can see the distinction?

>>51357996

I dealt with this preemptively because a major part of my current campaign is about economic warfare. The Evil Empire is anachronistically high-tech and has given up on conquering through force and is now attempting to sell their conveniences to nations that don't have the industrial base, expertise, or resources - all the stuff other posters have mentioned here - to produce on the scale necessary for mass consumption. Once everybody's hooked, create an artificial shortage, and the population will beg to surrender to them.

The inventor types in the campaign have taken it as a challenge, but in a good way. They're now struggling with how to modernize a nation instead of stopping at "lel I build car I win" and patting themselves on the back, and they're dealing with other players who are beginning a Luddite movement.

This is literally part of the point of my campaign, so ymmv on how well it works for you OP.

>>51361926
Please play something other than D&D. You seem like a fun person who enjoys roleplaying, I would very much like to see you handle a game designed to facilitate those things.

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>>51362364
Be less new. What he's describing is perfectly in line with TSR D&D where actual roleplaying is present. The problem is new school roleplaying in the bastardized nuD&D being about playacting and telling some asinine story, not realistic actions and consequences in a believable world. None of the things in that post require rolls or skill checks but that's what "roleplay"-oriented games demand because WotC has distorted roleplay to mean storyshit just as they distorted D&D to mean whatever cancerous trend is making the big $$$ today

>>51362364

>>51361926

= This anon here.

When it comes to DnD my days as a player are pretty much in the past. I usually GM DnD and run characters in systems that I haven't seen before. The Wizard in question wasn't actually my character, I played the Arcane Trickster Rogue in that campaign which was mostly to see if I wanted to run a 5e campaign for my group. Although I did make the introduction between the Wizard and the local thieves guild. The GM in that game did a great job as well.

Which is as it should be. Which is why I get so bitchy about morons such as

>>51359687
>>51360684
>>51360951

etc.

>>51362533
D&D is literally a derivative of a wargame in which the only form of progression is through class levels which revolve almost entirely on improving your ability to kill things on a tactical, grid-based battlefield.

Its mechanics for noncombat actions are almost nonexistent, frankly it would be better if they literally were, and it has so many terrible holdovers from the Dark Ages like alignment and Vancian magic that playing it believably is functionally impossible.

What's more, almost any random game not based on it will be better than it, certifiably so.

>>51359255
>nothing is stops the wizard from brining an extra cart of wands of fireball or three

Good luck with finding that many fucking wands

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>>51362746
You don't know anything. D&D evolved from Chainmail, it's not based on it. OD&D borrows Chainmail's man-to-man combat rules only and everyone, including gygax, inevitably used the alternative combat rules. And even Chainmail's fantasy rules make heroes relatively extremely vulnerable compared to normal play. D&D is designed entirely with the assumption that combat is high risk and last resort option even at high levels.

>Its mechanics for noncombat actions are almost nonexistent
Wrong nigger, combat rules are literally one page out of Men & Magic, and 5 pages total out of Underworld & Wilderness Adventures for hexcrawl rules (land, naval, air) - the same number of pages used just for stronghold rules. The vast majority of the rulebook is noncombat mechanics.

>holdovers from the Dark Ages like alignment and Vancian magic
wew you lot are pathetic.

>>51362956
>unironically uses "wew"
Golly. You're a 'tist.

>>51362746
>Vancian magic

I take it you've been living under a rock for the last eight years?

>>51362095
For the car, I would have asked the player what are the components of a car that he wants to have.

He'd be able to start from a wagon, but everything else would have to come from him. I'd allow him to come up with a drive shaft, steerable wheels, and even a small steam engine, such as an aeolipile, with crafting or scienceing checks. Going from that to something capable of burning fuel to get motion would be on him.

Of course, each of those checks would have to be done during down-time.

Then I'd break up the steps into more stages, and let him spend his down-time gradually making a wagon into a car. The various problems he'd run into would be ones not directly related to his work - leaf springs require a certain quality of steel, engines require maintenance and a certain number of gauges and mathematics to keep functional, a railway would be easier once you have tracks laid down, because I'd add "a pothole broke your wagon" to the random encounter table, and let the player roll to see how salvageable the automated wagon was...

There's a lot of stuff you can do. Let him go crazy, then hit him with every consequence you can. If he goes REALLY crazy, build him towards becoming a rail baron.

In fact, Terry Pratchet's latest work, Making Steam, seems like it'd be a solution to your problems. Give it a shot.

>>51362956
>Wrong nigger...

Ok guys, who let the /pol/lack in here?

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>>51363189
>getting triggered by nigger

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>>51357996
>His first thing he decided to make was a car right away and he maxed out his science skill so he's practically incapable of failing any check.

You're the DM. Grow some fucking testicles and learn to say "no", you neutered nu-male Millennial cuckold.

>>51362956
>You don't know anything.
I know all this grognard old school bullshit you're prattling on about is meaningless because the vast majority of D&D gamers play 3.pf and 5e, which exactly match my description.

>>51363128
>spell slots/spells per day/magic is just a bunch of silly predefined tricks
You can call it something other than Vancian but you can't call it anything other than shit.

>>51363343
You tried to describe the roots of D&D and its original intentions/playstyle, and were corrected. Argumentum ad populum is irrelevant here, and 3.pf/5e match your description even less closely than OD&D. You've no idea what you're talking about.

>>51363336
and thats why you don't have players, because you're a tyrant rather than a cooperative GM

a good half this thread is shit posting faggots who whine OP is a pussy, sees 94 posts and 38 posters.

makes me think its the same shit posting faggot

>>51360606
>Anti magic zones can negate spells
And yet caster find ways around the existence of antimagic fields and still manage to be the most powerful including spells that can deflect projectiles like bullets or kill you from outside gun-range.
>other equally or more powerful mages can step in to settle thing
>no other people have guns at all
Says who?(hint; the dm, not you) He's the only inventor in the world?
Even if only he has invented guns at first, if he wants to use his inventions to revolutionise the world and become leader as is his stated purpose then he's gonna have to share his toys and others will get their hands on them and reverse engineer them as other people in the thread pointed out.

You know there are already optional rules for guns and they're not just a death ray, right?

I mean in order for your "omg guns beat everything" argument to work you're insisting this convoluted scenario of the player getting an overpowered ranged weapon without working for it and keeping anyone but the people he likes from getting one and also having an unbeatable always-active antimagic field that extends to their entire firing range.

I would say that your logic fails but it's not even worthy of the term "logic", it's just shitposting.

>>51357996
Baby steps, you have to make an engine, then it has to actually be powerful enough to move a reasonable weight, and that takes a bunch of innovation in and of itself, time is your limiting factor.

He may never fail a roll, but a single roll doesn't account for much, probably costs him a little coin in prototyping, and could take anywhere from a week to a few years.

>>51357996
People like this have no idea what the actual history of science looks like, and it annoys the hell out of me.

If you want to build a car, you're going to need a Bacon, a Boyle, a Newton, a Young, a Newcomen, and a Watt-- MINIMUM. Science and technology, particularly in its modern incarnation, did not and could not possibly have advanced without the joint efforts of thousands of people; the notion that you could do it as a lone genius is outright insulting. You want a car? Great, how's your steel production? Your ability to cast metal at scale? Your precision manufacturing of parts? Your societal understanding of engines? Oh, and by the way-- you're Mercedes-Benz, not Ford.

You don't get to airplanes without going through Lilienthal and Bernoulli. You don't have an industrial revolution without the ability to cast metal at large scales. You're not going to make large devices in quantity before you perfect standardized screws.

You want to revolutionize the world? Create the Royal Society. Publish your world's equivalent of "The Skeptical Chymist." Develop those standardized screws, or a better process for making steel. You're not going to build a fucking car using 15th-century technology, any more than you're going to fabricate a microprocessor in 1807.

I say this as a guy who loves playing scientists and engineers.

>>51357996
Ok, here's what you do. After a few months of figuring things out he comes up with a design for a horseless carriage. On parchment.

Now the design has some issues, no his, he's ahead of his time, the world is just behind a little. All those issues need to be solved to actually build the thing. Wheels won't hold that weight, stronger wheels means heavier more powerful engine, but fuel won't cover that, current ideas for reducing stress on the thing if it hits a bump also aren't strong enough. Etc, etc.

Now go forth inventor, discover magics, and materials necessary to bring your vision to life. Invest in masters of their craft, secure materials, tickle a mage until they figure out how to enchant this heavy rope, etc.

>>51357996
Machines drink fuel.
Car without paved roads?

You need those coal miners - cut down the forests. Make them the industrial terror if they can become such.
Have thieves Rob their inventions and make them supervillains with them. Of course they wouldn't like having such an inventor around to challenge them..
Have the population become angry at being replaced by machines, having their lands ruined by the terror. Make the scientific rain acid, smog out the sun.

Have your player say the 'no' he yearns for.

>>51362826
>if the alchemist has infinite resources to make as many bombs as they want but the wizard isn't allowed to buy/make wands then bombs are overpowered

Still can't tell if you're baiting or just retarded.

>>51363336
You need more buzzwords.

>>51358284
Just follow history. This isn't a hard question once you have a decent grasp of how progress actually happened; in retrospect, we can understand which questions were really hard, and how advances depended on one another.

>>51358304
>>51358371
>>51358380
This stuff is punitive bullshit, though.

You can, in fact, play a world-destabilizing genius. Some inventions are older than you think-- the first manned flight in a hot balloon took place in 1783 and the fax machibe dates from 1843. Existing institutions were often terrible at seeing technological disruption coming. However, 1) social changes, like those that powered the Renaissance, the Scientific Revolution, and the Enlightenment, were frequently more important than individual discoveries or inventions, 2) the world never destabilized overnight, and 3) nobody ever poofed a car into being.

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>>51361015
Well done.

>>51357996
This is the sort of reason you need to discuss unusual character concepts before the game starts. Make sure your idea of what they're going to do and theirs line up.

>he must have took it as a challenge and started getting even more crazy
At that point I'd tell him to either knock it off or I'd boot him. You made a mistake in not learning how he was going to play the character, which is unfortunate, but you made a reasonable request and he did the exact opposite and that's not acceptable.

If you really must keep him in the game, just don't let him make anything you don't like. No cars, no telephones, nothing like that. Let him make expendables for prices somewhat similar to what a magical version would cost to make (slightly more, if you use a lot of antimagic fields and the like).

Also, keep in mind for the dcs involved that if he's inventing something new that it's something no one else has made. Maybe they didn't think up the concept, or maybe they tried but couldn't get it to work. Either way, the dc should accomodate the fact that it'll be very difficult.

You could also consider letting him slowly develop things over time. If he wants to make, for example, grenades, you could have him take a few sessions just to get it working (at which point it's X gold for 1d6 damage). Then, if he keeps working on it, every couple sessions he makes some sort of improvement that bumps the damage up by +1d6 or decreases the cost to make by 5-10% or that sort of thing.

tl;dr just nope the shit out of anything you're not sure of. Don't care how high he can roll, if you're afraid it might mess up the game then don't let him try except maybe as a long term thing that'll take until the end of the campaign before it even has a chance to revolutionize the world.

just make him second in line for the patent number. then have law folks rock up and take away annything he makes. If he bitches show him this thread of people calling him a bitch for being such an autist.

>>51363490
Not the bashing anon here. I have a small group of players that have a pretty good time, but I still say no to things. He didn't need to be such a cunt about it, but I do agree with him. Just tell him no, he needs to do something that doesn't break the game.

>>51357996
Don't let him make things that his character would have no idea of thinking of. A car? Nah. But a robot horse that doesn't tire? Sure! A gun? No way jose. Now a crossbow that shoots greatswords. That's where its at.

>>51357996
>he maxed out his science skill so he's practically incapable of failing any check.

I don't understand. Surely the GM sets the DC (or threshold, or whatever the system uses) for these skill checks?

>>51364388
Real life=/=game world, you fucking idiot.