/psionic/

Because people have kneejerk adverse reactions to them, such as accusing them of not belonging in fantasy (ignoring all the classic pulp fantasy stuff which included them) or talking about them being overpowered (due to misunderstanding the mechanics of their original implementation in 3.5)

I love psionics. I think it's a really cool theme that can be interestingly distinct from magic as an alternate way of affecting the world.

Then again, I also love the Tome of Battle/Path of War and supernaturally potent Martial characters without making them explicitly magic, so I tend to be in the minority on those sorts of things compared to the traditionalists.

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>>51338640
Because their not ready to WITNESS THEIR DOOOOOOOOOOM

>>51338640
They get as much as they deserve

>>51338640
What's the difference between psionic powers and the more "mystic" or mind-affecting styles of magic?

Genuine question

>>51339157
At least in D&D, psionics is fluffed as an internal power and coming about through things like self-reflection and understanding your mind, body, and yourself. Magic is fluffed as an external power, like the mage is working with ambient magic in the area and it its through training and inborn ability they can access this.

>>51339157
psionics are nothing personnel kid version of magic

>>51338640
Underused and underappreciated along with a lot of players and dms who didn't bother to really read the rules and think it's overpowered so they don't allow it.

The bigger issues though are questions of balance and interactions with magic and honestly not enough to set it apart from magic besides so vague thematics.

>>51338659
I actually think that the soulknife would do much better as a tome of battle style class rather than a psychic kensai with some gimmicks.

>>51338659
>(due to misunderstanding the mechanics of their original implementation in 3.5) It was the 2ed DnD and Traveler rules that piss everyone off starting. Alone with settings like Dark Sun where only the broken psionic were allowed in place of magic. Then you had to make a roll to see you you could learn them (both system). To many bad DM/GMs who could not handle players with magic but wanted to use them selves used this as a cover . BTW I still see this in new systems like Eclipse Phase. Playing a someone with psionic powers is shooting your self in the foot and then the arm starting. So they can say you could play one but not really. Then the bad GM has cover to pull out a high power psion that should have to insane to last 1 rounds in a fight if they followed the rules set for players

>>51340146
What I getting at is Bad GMs and systems abuse psioncs a lot. Leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouths over the years.

>>51338640

Too much baggage.

In a world where magic exists, there needs to be very concrete in-setting explanations for why psionics are not considered magic, and if they both exist, WHY?

There's already one wierd mystical fuckery power around, why add more? All it does is detract from the setting in general and add a sort of schlocky kitchen-sinkiness to the mix.

Like I have nothing against psionics honestly, I just don't understand why you need all these different flavors of magic existing all at once.

"Psionics are too sci fi for fantasy and too fantasy for sci fi" is the general excuse

I've never really understood their powers.
Like... why would you need them when you've got things like wizards, sorcerers and warlocks.
Wizards learn to manipulate magic through study, Sorcerers are innately magical (usually due to some sort of ancestral deviant who got it on with an inhuman), and Warlocks bargain for power with other worldly forces.

>>51340318
Wizards - found the hidden cheat codes in the game manual
Sorcerers - given access to the cheat codes via family
Warlock - called the cheat hotline and payed for cheats
Psion - hacked the game using only inborn skill

>>51340204
That and it not being distinct enough from magic.

>>51340207
Other anons have pointed out that this is a shitty stupid argument that involves ignoring cases of psychic powers in fantasy and selectively only seeing the magic you prefer as valid.

>>51340405
Right but unless you are playing a very recent sorcerer (like your grandparent and their Other are still alive) there is nothing to different between the psion and the sorcerer.
Both are innately magical.

>>51340447

But I didn't say that psionics wasn't valid.

All I'm saying is that if you're gonna go with psionics, then go in whole hog. Get rid of magic and replace it wholesale with mentalism. Then build your world around that.

>>51340405
Wizards open console commands
Sorcerers use cheats
Warlocks buy pay-to-win dlc
Psions mod the game

>>51340491
And I'm saying that selectively ignores them working together.
You might as well say having paladins and clerics and druids is redundant kitchen-sink messiness.

There's already one divine mystical guy with the cleric, why add more?
Or why even have any difference between divine and arcane, just have "magic-guys".

It doesn't have a niche.
It is basically magic, only with some nuances.

>>51340484
Youre looking at only the most superficial part of the casters. They are mechanically different, use their magic in ways that are different and are only superficially similar in the whole "inborn magic" department.

The cheat codes (spells) come from the bloodline of the supernatural catalyst that gave them their magic aka "via family". Psions are actually using their inborn skill via chi/their chakras/akashic energy/whatever to alter reality via their thoughts. It's a very different thing from a sorcerer willing a fireball spell from the dragon blood that courses through his body. The sorcerer's power comes from his body, while the psions comes from his mind.

>>51340600
Or you could have a thousand varieties of magic power all working in different ways that enhance the cultures and races they came from. The elves are majority druids, the gnolls use Truenaming magics, the Dwarves are big on rune magic, the Humans invented Wizardry, teh dragonborn are psions and Incarnum wielders, the People from notIndia use Sutras, and on and on and on.

Why limit yourself to such a boring and limited view magic as a single thing with only a single way of being used unless your a relatively unintelligent person and thus are unable to keep these different types separate in your head.

>>51340405
>Psion - hacked the game using only inborn skill
That's not how it works in practice in 3E (don't even pretend you meant anything else), because a psion has the opportunity to learn fewer "cheat codes" total than a sorcerer, with a more specialized power list.
You'd think someone who hacks the game would understand it on a deeper level and be able to produce a wider variety of effects.

Psionics are just a trick from the Mindflayers, in an a attempt to make humanity and the other prey races more 'appetizing'.

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>>51338640

Because Psionists are fucking with our heads to make us underestimate them.

>>51340970
You don't actually have to really understand something on a deeper level to hack it. All you really need is the ability to find the parts of the code you need to change the things you want and then exploit those. Most hackers couldn't actually program a game if they wanted too, but they know how to hack them apart to find the right places in the code to exploit. Low level Psions are basically dudes who have Cheat Engine and know the little ways to find the parts of the code to exploit. Higher levels means more understanding of hacking.

Because psionics is just the Sci-fi version of magic.

That's it. It's a fancy made up word to make magic sound sciency, and because it's just fucking magic, no one gives a wet fart about it in settings that already have magic.

I like it but you have to be prepared to have a certain level of nuance that most people don't care about.

A Psion and a Wizard are very different. A wizard will leave behind scrolls, spell books, familiars, bound demons, etc. Same for Sorcerer's. Psions can't make undead, conjure demons, turn water into wine etc. They don't really have a connection to the planes. Their power comes from experimentation and personal training vs quite study or naturally magical blood. I think it can be an interesting dynamic to explore.
Sure both are magic, but you wouldn't say a Medusa is the same thing as a Wizard or a Monk despite all being magical.

>>51338640
Because they are just magic without the pageantry and discipline.

Everything you might want to do with them, magic was already doing.

There's also a strong feeling of "this is how we really wanted magic to be, use this instead."
Ideally, magic should be more Vancian (as in spells themselves are kind of alive, and wedge themselves into your head) and psionics should be more Lovecraftian (as in making connections with other minds, and sometimes really, REALLY regretting it).

>>51338640
In any system with Psionics and Magic, the Psionics are poorly implemented.

>>51338640
I ran a D20 Modern game once and I still remember not giving a fuck and letting one of my players make a 3E Psion because why not?

He ended up blowing up a shitload of helicopters with energy missiles. It was actually pretty fucking bad ass.

It's a matter of source.
Wizards study ancient arcane tongues and rituals that unlock the very fabric of reality. They have an academic, almost-scientific approach because they have to know what is gravity to influence it, or how dimensional barriers are breached to open portals, or the rules of a demonic species. Even when they don't know everything, they rely on formulas and codes that are what alchemy is to chemistry.

A Sorcerer is a low-key hybrid, in the simplest sense. They have deep connections to creatures that naturally manipulate reality through magic, and so can they. This means they act like wizards, but understand very little. It's something they feel in the guts.

Clerics and Druids simply believe very very much, memorize specific requests in form of prayers, convince themselves that their god or entity can't be fucked with, which empowers them, then recitate the mantras. The divine hotline responds, the god sends a spark of his power and it behaves like the cleric requested, using the priest as a conduct. The key is that they have to believe hard, it's not a contract based on reciprocation.

Warlocks are like priests, but aren't bound by faith. Like wizards they study rituals, but they summon entities that grant them a bit of their power, making them like sorcerers but without direct genetic relations. They act as agents of the entity but aren't religiously bound like clerics.

Psions are espers or mutants. that achieve their mutation through sheer random genetics or through new age weird science like chakras, astral energy, drug experimentation, meditation and chi channeling, most of them unlocking only some special brain functions, and their body changes according to these new functions to manifest them. They are bound to what the body can do, so no necromancy as it works with souls, but surely they can tap into mind and body. at low level, they influence themselves. at high level, they access astral and cosmic energy and influence reality.

If anything psions should be closest to monks, just focusing on training the mind instead of the body.

>>51338640
Psionic players tend to suffer from special snowflake syndrome. I had a player throw a fit in a 3.5 game because her kineticist set an NPC on fire, and the NPC realized exactly what happened right away. She threw a freaking fit, when I pointed out that psionics has displays, that psionic powers can be identified with the proper skill checks, and oh yes that NPC was a psychic warrior and was very familiar with the power that was used.

That player was just a problem all-around though.

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>>51341317

I don't think that's entirely true.

Psionics in D&D isn't just telepathy and telekinesis. There's also a lot of spiritual and occult influence that doesn't quite work with "typical" magic.

>>51340767
Why would gnolls have Truenaming? How do you use a Sutra to cast?

>>51342904
A sutra would something like an incantation.

>>51342660
>>Psionics in D&D isn't just telepathy and telekinesis.

Doesn't matter. Psionics exist because of Science Fiction wanting science magic instead of supernatural magic. There is no reason to have both magic and psioncs in the same setting because they're the exact same god damned thing. Psionics as a word isn't even 70 years old.

>>There's also a lot of spiritual and occult influence that doesn't quite work with "typical" magic.

I.... really? I mean, are you actually that god damned retarded?

>>51342962
So like Uncle in Jackie Chan Adventures?

>>51342991

>chi energy
>chakras
>astral projection
>aura reading
>mental powers
>a raging erection for crystals

D&D psionics is just as much hippy New Age magic as it is sci-fi magic, if not more so.

>>51342012
Psionics in 3.5 is better balanced than the default magic system and actually fun to use.

So if Psionics are based off willpower, discipline, and spooky akashic chi energies, why are they usually Intelligence based?

>>51342991
>Psionics as a word isn't even 70 years old.
It was created in 1952, though it then meant the study of paranormal phenomenon related to electronics.

As it is in DnD and the like, it's based on mysticism from India, as opposed to the Western mysticism of arcane magic.

>>51342904
I was just using examples made or picked from my own homebrew world. I partially based my gnolls off the Digger comic, and to have one's name eaten is the worst punishment possible as it makes you literally a nonperson, and that made me think about the larger implications of names and their importance within that culture, and eventually I settled on them using Truenaming magic, which also has an unnaming spell/ritual within the rules.

>>51338640
People who like to complain about fantasy without ever reading any think that they're not appropriate to the setting.

I'm not sure what the logic is behind D&D considering "psychic" things as different to "magic" ones, though. That might have made sense back when the only magic-users were wizards.

The calling the class the "mystic" for the 5e playtests was a very good idea.

>>51343520
Dunno. Why are warlocks and sorcerers Charisma based?

I guess it's because it's considered to use precise mental discipline rather than "force of personality" (Cha) or fuzzy-edged-but-nuanced understanding (Wis).

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If you're going to bitch about psionics and magic being nearly the same then why not allow them both to exist? This is the thing I despise about DnD putting in the trope that magic is only done a certain way or it's not magic at all the same with the Divine/Arcane magic divide.

I mean, what's so wrong about having a group of dudes who do magic with esoteric mental exercises and another group that does it through prayer and religious observence and your garden variety wizard who does it by jazz handing being all under the same roof?

>>51338640
Either because they actually shit, or because they WANT to be underappreciated for some reason like >>51341075 says

>>51343520
"Mind over matter"

They should be Con-based imo.

>>51343520
Because they study and train their powers.

And there's more than one Psionic class. Wilders and Soulknives exist and most Psi feats have Wisdom prerequisites.

>>51346613
>>51347014
>>51343520
Psions=Int
Wilders=Charisma
Soulknives=Wisdom

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>>51338640
>Green psychic powers

Fuck whatever this thread is about, what are the best colors for psionic powers and why are they pink and purple?

>>51338659
>immediately assumes OP is talking about D&D
You are the problem.

>>51347429
I believe you mean purple and purpleish blue are the best colors you philistine?

I like them in modern-ish/sci-fi settings

>>51338640
They're too remote from their origins. Psionics are supposed to be descended from turn of the century mysticism, the likes of which gave us Madam Blavatsky, Ectoplasmic emanations, Aliester Crowley, pyramidology, and other wackadoo nonsense. The only hard connection to these roots most psionics fluff has these days is the idea of crystal power.

I'm running a game set in a sorta steampunk era, so I'm looking forward to using a lot of that turn of the century mysticism flavor and making psionics a bit more interesting than usual.

>>51343121
Yu Mo Gui Gwai Fai Di Zao

>>51346350
>same with the Divine/Arcane magic divide.

eh, divine magic should either run off a PP style meter (called faith or whatever) if the divine magic is coming from the PC's strong beliefs or it should be a series of fairly low key at will abilities you gain access to as your faithy class gains X number of level (like heal minor wounds/a nerfed but more likely to work Turn ability, etc...) but which you lose if you break a bunch of rules tied to your character's faith (essentially make them Unknown Armies Avatars in how they play)

>>51347429
Psionics are definitely pink, because brains are pink
Eldritch warlock powers are purple because it's very faggy
Divine magic is yellow because lightning and the sun are both yellow
Druidry is all like rocks and dirt and shit
Wizardry is white because it's all that pent up sexual energy
Sorcery is green because I was out of colors

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>>51341075

>>51338640
Because people hate losing agency, like when a psionic uses mind control.

>>51348003

Things like that shouldn't be dependant upon class I feel. I mean, if you're a god or some kind of powerful being with enough agency to affect the world then if you need to do some holy shit you can do it in whatever way suits your nature which may as well speaking through the body of the fighter who has nothing to do with you to tell your adherent something important.

That and, most importantly, I hate the idea that clerics or other such classes have the same level of flexibility as a wizard does. If your god does something a certain way and you are raised to do something a certain way why are you allowed to act like the wizard who picks and chooses? You worship a war god, if talking fails the next course of action may as well be an honor duel or just straight up kill them. You worship a trickster god, your first course of action is to con them and if caught throw some glitter in their face and get away..

>>51347448
Because normally they're called "psychic powers". D&D started the meme of calling them "psionic powers", when the term "psionics" is actually the study of psychic powers, and "psionic" is "relating to the study of psychic powers".

>>51348106
that's only relevant if in your chosen system psionic users are the only way for the players to lose agency
and generally speaking if a PC ends up fully under the control of a psion he fucked up so badly that the same fuckup against any other character archetype would have resulted in death
so if you don't see a way of getting out of it, you can always reroll (it sucks but shit happens) or else play along and escape control later

>>51343357
It also has far, far less options than magic. And the spell resistance interactions make it feel tacked on (because it is!)

>>51348362
But what if another player did it to your character during a moment of weakness?

>>51348507
well then you treat it as you would any other case of PvP conflict
either you previously agreed it could happen at which point you just gotta suck it up and hope another player caves his skull in
or else you previously agreed it should not happen or you implicitly assumed it should not happen at which point you talk about it with the person and your group and see what comes of it

if the group then agrees he's being a dick you can always kick him out

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>>51338640
>psions
pffff what a bunch of losers. Ill be over here playing the only pseudo magic class that matters.

Because nobody who uses them actually cares about people.

>>51338640
psionics are the pseudo-science version of magic, therefore redundant.

>>51338640
Because they occupy the same niche as magic, generally, and people prefer magic.

Because there's not a lot to appreciate. It's basically wizard magic except the source is slightly different and there are a few different spells.

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>>51348016
>sorcery not blue

>>51338640
too magic for sci-fi, too sci-fi for magic

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>>51338983
>playing a 6 player, all guardsmen free-for-allmatch
>mfw every single player's psykers decided to go full sheev at roughly the same time and place
RIP like 20 regiments worth of infantry.

"I can't believe it's not magic!"

Mechanically, Psionics in AD&D 2nd always felt like an attempt to smuggle a Palladium-style magic points system into a per-day magic world.

Now, I happen to think that magic points are a better mechanic but it was an import into D&D.

>>51339257
Isn't that warlocks with their sold souls and what not.

In 2e, psionics is just where they lumped all the eastern influenced magic. The name maybe be science fictionish, but the actual powers aren't so much. Meditating to stretch ones limbs, Meditating to run faster than normal, forging items with the mind. It's literally just another form of magic people get overly hung up on the name of.

>>51348016
>eldritch
black and purple
>druid
should be green
>sorcery
blue

you're basically playing as a Jedi, if you think about it, which is more fantasy than otherwise. Using their powers to push, pull, mind-control, enhance speed, strength, etc. Unfortunately, people relate that more to Sci-Fi than fantasy

>>51338640
Because autists lose their shit over IT so much so they attempted to WoC to fuck up the soon to arrive Mystic take 3 UA.

>>51338640
>I DO SHIT WITH MY MIND
>I WILL KILL YOU BY JUST LOOKING AT YOU
>MIIIIIIIIND POWERS
>KILLING SHIT WITHOUT TOUCHING NOR THROWING SHIT AT IT
>NOTHING PERSONEL KID

>>51339257
telekinesis is edgy now?

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>>51347957
MAGIC MUST DEFEAT MAGIC!

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>>51347429
It's not about colors but effects. Halos/forehead sigils/etc are best

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>>51350274
WITNESS YOUR DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!

>>51347429
Psionic powers must always glow magenta, because it's a color that exists only in the mind.

Bobby, you're gay

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>>51347429

Because it's Blue/Black

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>>51348244
>If your god does something a certain way and you are raised to do something a certain way why are you allowed to act like the wizard who picks and chooses?

That's what I'm saying though - if you're a worshipper of a god with a set of domains then you should get a few abilities according to how you worship and "find strength" in that god - a minor level 1 ability that you can spam, then a few levels later another still fairly minor ability etc...

Divine casters should have weak general abilities they can use often vs. mages having specific abilities they can use sparingly vs. psions that have strong abilities they can use within the limits of their willpower and body.

Psions get powerful abilities in exchange for great risks to their health.
Arcane casters get specific things they can do in exchange for harder limits on their use and not being able to focus on much else but spellcraft.
Divine casters get weak, vague, but infinitely reusable things that they get in exchange for focusing their entire lives around their faith and their god's worship.

Now in terms of game balance, that STILL kinda makes divine casters OP as fuck because their restrictions are mainly roleplay while the other two have hard rollplay limitations.

But you see with Paladins that hard roleplay limitations are actually the ones that GM are most willing to use because the GM gets to change them as the game continues. Thus in effect the actual Risk/Reward is a player trusting the GM not to fuck with them for regular gameplay bonuses while the other two can always pull the game rules up to counter GM shenanigans to their powers, but in so doing bind themselves to those rules and the limitations therein.

And this my friends, is the difference between "game balance" and "a balanced game".

>>51360655

Are you sure this is a psychic?

>>51343204
That kind of shit all sounds like magic to me

>>51363139
You'd be right, considering they're all essentially "magical" from their respective cosmology's standpoints.