/TG/ Why do most game have a simplistic Morality when dealing

>>51285902
Because the Dark arts doesn't refer to physical darkness, but the nature of the magic itself.

Creating a cloud of inky shadows to conceal yourself isn't evil.

Conjuring demons is, because demons tend to steal souls and you're risking the lives of innocents by even bringing them into the world.

Most games have simplistic morality here so that they can have traditional 'bad guy' spells like necromancy and demons exist, but limit the use by players by labeling them as something the system assumes players won't be. The game assumes the players are the good guys and use the beneficial magic that's safe for the people they're saving, and the npcs are the bad guys using the risky dangerous magic that will cause destruction whether on purpose or by accident.

It's a pretty basic concept.

>>51285902
Same reason why being social is good while being anti-social is bad. It goes against the norm. Society and other people expect you to be in line on what other people believe. Those that don't are reviled as evil, freaks, and other such names.

>>51286029
What If I want my Hero using Bad Guy spells? Magic is nothing more than a tool.

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>>51286029
>PCs
>Ever not using the riskiest most destructive plan possible.
It's like the game designers had no idea who actually plays RPGs.

>>51286223
that kind of thinking lands you pretty squarely in the bad guy parts of morality

>>51286267
Such thoughts would lead to the Darkside anon. Always remember to never show any sort of Emotion, yet you must show compassion and love to everyone, except the ones you truly love or else we will have to exile you for starting down the path to the darkside

>>51286341
>that kind of thinking lands you pretty squarely in the bad guy parts of morality
and being short-sighted doesn't?

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What's with all the bait threads these days? They're coming up like clockwork, like there's a bot throwing them up or something.

>>51286518
>They're coming up like clockwork, like there's a bot throwing them up or something.
Just people question why people follow such Simplistic morality without ever thinking about what they are doing

>>51285902
Because good guy lie. And they manipulate. And every act of charity or kindness they do, you can drag it out squirming into the light and see it for what it is. The world doesn't need their arrogance nor hypocrisy anymore.

>>51285902
Because for the most part that kind of magic actually puts not only your life at risk but in a lot of cases it can also corrupt the user themselves. It's just a tool for the user and the wielder may be a good guy but they probably won't be much longer after they've tapped into it too many times.

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>>51286346
>Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
>Through passion, I gain strength.
>Through strength, I gain power.
>Through power, I gain victory.
>Through victory, my chains are broken.
>The Force shall free me.

>>51286223
Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword.

>>51285902
Because Darkness is the fear and evil lurking out of sight in the night and the light is what beats the darkness back

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>>51286567
No, see, that's too obvious. You can't just throw out an empty hook.

You need to bait the hook with something whose discussion will lead into the hook, but is by itself a legitimate-sounding question. Like, "I want to make a good necromancer, but my DM says that all necromancy is evil because negative energy. How can I use it for good anyways?"

See, that sounds like there might be an actual discussion there, right? Wrong! It'll get sidetracked within ten posts into a flamewar about either the nature of necromancy, the nature of good and evil, or the wisdom in deliberately working around your DM.

>>51286717
>Because Darkness is the fear and evil lurking out of sight in the night and the light is what beats the darkness back
The dark is generous. Its first gift is concealment: our true faces lie in the dark beneath our skins, our true hearts remain shadowed deeper still. But the greatest concealment lies not in protecting our secret truths, but in hiding from us the truths of others.

The dark protects us from what we dare not know. Its second gift is comforting illusion: the ease of gentle dreams in night's embrace, the beauty that imagination brings to what would repel in day's harsh light. But the greatest of its comforts is the illusion that the dark is temporary: that every night brings a new day. Because it is day that is temporary. Day is the illusion.

Its third gift is the light itself: as days are defined by the nights that divide them, as stars are defined by the infinite black through which they wheel, the dark embraces the light, and brings it forth from the center of its own self. With each victory of the light, it is the dark that wins.

>>51286742
>concealment
>illusion
>sophistry
You do not sound like a good and righteous man of the light, stranger. Where the light lies there is no need for illusion, as the lights burns away falsities. We walk with honour in our breast and conviction so we have no need of concealment.

>>51286790
>We walk with honour in our breast and conviction so we have no need of concealment.

The dark is generous, and it is patient. It is the dark that seeds cruelty into justice, that drips contempt into compassion, that poisons love with grains of doubt.

The dark can be patient, because the slightest drop of rain will cause those seeds to sprout.

The rain will come, and the seeds will sprout, for the dark is the soil in which they grow, and it is the clouds above them, and it waits behind the star that gives them light.

The dark's patience is infinite.

Eventually, even stars burn out

>>51286567
and a tip to you good sir!

>>51286267
They probably would avoid it if the GM didn't just let you make a new character that's just as good as the one you lost from daemonic possession.

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>>51287006
nods respectfully

Why do most setting have a constant Good vs Evil conflict.

>>51286267
Who doesn't want to play as the bad boy

>>51285902
Its a legacy mechanic from OD&D that has been copied without thinking if it's necessary or even wanted, simple as that.

>>51285902
Propaganda, nothing more.
Light = Good Dark = Evil
Light = Oppressive Dark = Comfy
Your choice.

>>51287834
Do not listen to him. His teachings will make you fall to the darkside

>>51285902
Aside from that something that always bugged me is in Almost all RPG game universe is why combining both dark and light side is so hard or unheard of ?
I can guess that lore wise it my be very hard since the dark side is tempting and blah blah, but surly there must have been a force user that for example uses his emotions for power yet does not succumb to them ?
Someone that can perhaps use his anger, fear and sadness and maybe even the good emotions as a controlled source of power while maintaining balance and control ?

>>51288071
Being extremely far leaning on one side of the spectrum is what gives you the neat things to begin with. If you're just some asshole who can't make up his mind you're neutral which nets you the Fighter class.

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>>51288071
In the world of Magic: the Gathering, mixing white magic and black magic is a well-proven technique. And they've turned at least a couple of its planes into D&D settings, so it should count as one, maybe.

>>51287991
You mean the comfy side?

>>51286707
You know, it's funny, but now that I think of it, the only person that the Sith code worked for in the end was Darth Vader, because the force did free him.

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>>51289252
Don't forget Darth vectivus. His very existance Triggers MoralFags

>>51289272
He doesn't exist anymore, and I never knew who he was until i found /tg/ anyway, but didn't he start out a Sith and turn himself from the Dark Side to The Force through being smarter than the average Sith?

>>51289288
Nope. He was a darksider though and through. He just didn't care about the sith or the jedi religious war.

>>51289322
>Darth vectivus
So he was a shit sith, lol. Nah I'm fairly sure I'm a "moralfag", and I don't care about him, because he did nothing, except exist and propagate Sith ideology, badly as he died naturally and not at the hand of an Apprentice. It's an interesting concept, but he's really just a character that was a Jedi and ultimately good, but used the Imbalance rather than the Balance. Odd, but not really how it works, at least according to Lucas, and Disney.

>>51289322
How many darksides ask another to kill him to save the lives of others?

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>>51285902
Book of vile darkness had a pretty good point on when it would be appropriate to use the objective or relative approach to alignment.

I kind of agree that the relative approach is a bit unwieldy and requires heavy discussion with your group before you apply it, and even then you are bound to spend a long ass time arguing on what counts as what. Still, its a great rules set to use if you want to have some sort of paladin on paladin war where both sides can smite each other and call each other while still receiving the full support of their deity.

>>51289361
You know what I thought was funny in reading his page on the wook, is that if Luke had gone there instead of Nelani he probably would have killed vectivus and been none the worse for it.

>>51289356
>So he was a shit sith, lol
Who gives a fuck? Propaganda and ideaology is a cancer that inspires people to give up actually thinking for themselves.

>he did nothing, except exist and propagate Sith ideology, badly as he died naturally and not at the hand of an Apprentice

Seriously, just look at this. "he was a failure because he lived a long, prosperous happy life instead of getting shanked like a bitch"

Only an idiot would think of that being a failure, instead of a good life lived.

>>51289388
I never said he was an idiot and the shit Sith part was a joke, mind you but since you want to argue, he was legitimately bad as a Dark Lord Of The Sith, he was far more of a Jedi than he was a sith, because like all of the most successful Jedi, Luke, Mace, Yoda, Qui-Gonn, Obi-Wan, and so on, he confronted and controlled his passions rather than letting his passions rule him, he was a great Darksider, but an objectively shit Sith Lord.

>>51289418
That would make him the perfect Sith

>>51289435
So the perfect Sith is in essence a Jedi Master.

>>51289418

A jedi would have to go out wanking his dick out about "keeping peace in the galaxy" and going out there maintaining the status quo without realizing it(and this only works because light and dark sides of the forces are agents of nature and politicians are his pawns).

This guy went into the dakr side and retreated into his asteroid with his family and friends while developing new force techniques, it could be argued that his destiny was to find a technique that would allow others to rule the galaxy but on an individual level he was more moral and fair than any jedi.

>>51289474
A shitty Jedi would. And the jedi council is a shitty jedi order that got drawn into politics, which lead them down the path of the Dark Side. What defines a Jedi is his full acceptance of the Force and his will to comply, what defines a Sith is his denial and his effort to bend the Force to his own will.

>>51289474
You have shit reading comprehension skills if you think there's a light side to the force, there is only The Force and the Dark Side. The Dark Side is a cancer on The Force which is balance there is no such thing as the Light Side that shit was EU bullshit just like Vectivus.
Vectivus was not very moral as he literally killed people in order to make his force phantoms.
And i'm not aware of A requirement of being a Jedi as going out an wanking their dicks about keeping peace in the galaxy, I know that the most powerful Sith Lord of All Time manipulated the Order into at least half becoming what they originally were, an order of warriors who fought for galactic unity and peace, and were willing to sacrifice themselves for their comrades, and the other half into working for a Sith politically, they should have seen it but most of them had their heads too far into the higher mysteries of The Force to see Sidious for what he was, and Sidious was blocking their precognitive abilities and working very hard to twist Anakin to his side through those same visions.

>>51289631
>that shit was EU bullshit just like Vectivus.

The fuck do you think we are talking about here?

>>51289654
EU bullshit, just because I think it's bullshit doesn't mean I can't argue about it. In my view the movies take precedence and they never mention the Light Side, just The Force, it's buddhist or taoist philosophy on the nature of the universe, the Force being Balance, Dark Side being Imbalance, Nature versus the Unnatural relatively simple concept.

>>51289706
The force awakens mention the lightside

>>51289746
No, it just mentions the light, and I believe it was just Leia that said that and she's not a Jedi. The Force is nature, in all it's benevolence and harshness, it encompasses light but is not wholly light, it is uncaring and yet caring. You could say the light side is The Force but it's not entirely correct and never has been, as Disney is so far following Lucas's canon rules, which state unequivocally that there is no Light Side just The Force and The Dark Side..

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>>51286714
>implying I can't pull out a doom

>>51289905
Is he the strongest demon.

>>51289798
Kylo ren said the light side is tempting him.

>>51286454
No, because you're making excuses for using literally objectively evil powers because its expedient. He's not being short-sighted, you are.

>>51285902
Ever since people that actively try to subvert those concepts inevitably end up with truly cringeworthy edgefests.

>>51290375
No he didn't, he said the LIGHT is drawing him in, that he felt it's presence as if being a Jedi was his natural state. Shall i go find the script for the scene to show you or do you want to keep being an idiot?

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>>51286454
>I am going to use a spell with far-reaching, negative consequences because it is expedient and efficient.
>What do you mean *I'm* the short sighted one?

>>51290418
>>51290375
Actually nobody refers to the light or the light side anywhere in the script go here
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens.html and Ctrl+F search the light or the light side, no spoken dialogue refers to either of those things.

>>51286223
Whose tool is it? Do you knwo exactly where magic comes from? Do you know what names and powers you are invoking when you cast the spells you use? Whose power is it that is used Yours, or some other beings? Is the soul trapped by your magics when you use them? Do you know for sure?

Magic is not a tool. It is a power, and all power comes from somewhere.

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>>51289746
No its mention in the clone wars cgi. The mortis arc. The son was the darkside. The sister was the lightside. And the father was the balance.

>>51290617
No the daughter was the Force the son was the Dark Side, the father was between the two keeping the Dark Side from destroying all life in the galaxy and obviously failing, and further it's implied that they weren't real.

>>51290617
The mortis arc is non-canon due to contradicting George lucas words.

>>51290690

That and the son FELL to the Dark Side. That was kinda his arc.

>>51290699
Actually it is canon Lucas was directly involved with that. also this>>51290708

>>51290699
Even if that was true (it's not,) it doesn't matter, George Lucas has no control over canon anymore, and anything in the Clone Wars is considered canon now.

>>51290745
It was always canon!

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>>51290690
The Daughter was a member of a powerful family of Force wielders who inhabited the planet Mortis. She served as the paragon and the personification of the light side of the Force, embodying compassion, serenity and love among other attributes.

>>51290762
So she embodied the force in its entirety as Lucas is on record saying that the Jedi have it right, and Disney is following what he said about the force.

>>51290754
Well, true, what more I mean is that even if it did somehow contradict Lucas (which it didn't,) that would be irrelevant.

>>51290832
No, she embodied the Light side.

This fight is dumb. You're dumb. It wouldn't make sense for her to be Force, son dark side, and Father apparently ALSO the Force.

>>51290866

Except the entire conflict between the son and the father is that the son is FALLING to the dark side. You can't fall to the very thing you embody. You are already it.

Dark Arts is basically just the magic that has unreasonable amounts of collateral damage.

>>51290858
True. no argument here.
>>51290866
None of them are gods, though they were worshiped as gods by the Nightsisters they are not gods, only the Jedi have the correct interpretation of The Force, Lucas stated this, Disney is portraying this, maybe Lucas put his rules for canonicity in the contract when he sold the franchise to the mouse. I don't know about that, I only know the Jedi have it right.

>>51290866
Anon, kindly realize that in the OT, the way the Force worked is not a duality on a sliding scale, but a singular Force that had a lesser, unfortunate other part to it.
It's an analogy to the adage about japanese swordsmiths, when making a weapon, always make one before it to "draw the evil of the true blade into it". In reality this amounted to making a test blade, but it was instilled with ritual significance.

>>51290933
Oh, I get how it was, given Lucas legit just took eastern philosophy and filed the numbers off.

Things evolve though.

>>51290923
Honestly? Fuck the Jedi. If they have it right I want to be wrong.

>>51286223

Evil necromancer detected.

>>51290959
We're telling you they haven't Disney is sticking with the original interpretation Lucas gave us
>>51290973
Why so salty about the Jedi? their original doctrine in the EU didn't forbid or restrict someone the way it later did that led to Anakin falling and the corruption by Sidious.

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>>51290973

Look at it as kreia point of view

Looked at one way, she's the philosophy of the dark side taken to it's logical conclusion. The dark side is all about power and the ability to do what you want with that power. It promises absolute freedom for those who master it. However, strong you get though, you're still ultimately only a conduit for the force. The stronger you get, the more bound you are to the force, because the less you can do without it. So how do you free yourself from this trap? Well... Kreia found the exile, who was able to live without the force. The Exile stared into the abyss at Malachor and lived with it, she wasn't broken to Revan's path as just about everyone else there was.

She's also a deconstruction of the Light Side. There's one bit where she dismisses, "soldiers, droids, starships, they are but obstacles, crude matter against which we test ourselves..." That's a deliberate reference to Yoda's "luminous beings are we, not this crude matte". But with the context shifted, it's used to dismiss unimaginable suffering and destruction, she then goes on to explain that "the true war is over the hearts of the Jedi". The thing is, that's a pretty fair assessment of the Star Wars movies. Kreia presents you with a version of the philosophy of the light side that is horrific, one where Jedi are distant and indifferent to anything other than matters of the force, and the suffering and death of those around them only matters to the extent that it affects the Jedi themselves. Again, this informs Kreia's relationship with the Exile, who's whole deal is that she cannot be indifferent, rather than standing apart, the Exile must join her life to those around her.

>>51291002
And to add to your point(no matter how much i dislike kreia) The Exile is basically Lucas' Jedi taken literally, she is the embodiment of The Force, as it should be.

>>51290995
>Why so salty about the Jedi? their original doctrine in the EU didn't forbid or restrict someone the way it later did that led to Anakin falling and the corruption by Sidious.

Yeah, but their original EU doctrine also acknowledged a light and dark side? Like, if we're going of Lucas canon, I'm speaking largely of movie Jedi then.

It's not so much salty as just rejecting their (and broadly Eastern) philosophy because I'm firmly in a Western tradition.

>>51291002
In many ways, some of Kreia's philosophy reminds me of certain critiques of Buddhist philosophy, which is likely intentional.

>>51285902
Becuase they didn't take the time to think about people who want a cheaper off-brand magic.

>>51291002

Interesting stuff. Well posted, Anon.

Something I've wanted to play with in Star Wars RP is the fact that the light and dark sides are not good and evil, not exactly. They're usually calmly benevolent and violently selfish, respectively, but morality is a little more complicated than that. Don't wanna go all edgemaster and be "the light side are the REAL villains !!!1!" but there are nuances.

And, of course, self-delusion is endless. Was going to have a character who thought he could fuel force powers with his burning, manly passion! But eventually that just leads to slaughtering anyone who might pose a threat to what you care about. The dark side is selfish and destructive, and while that's no exactly the same as evil, it tends to run that way eventually.

>>51291034
That was a different order, the Je'daii, and was heavily informed by the planet they were living on, they later became the Jedi, and yes perhaps with a bent towards the lighter emotions like compassion, because those didn't lead to the dark, so what? They took the whole order save those who had fallen entirely to darkness, who were all killed, and then fucked off from Tython and became the Jedi.

>>51288071
>Someone that can perhaps use his anger, fear and sadness
That's how I view barbarian rage. He doesn't cast spells, but he focuses his feelings into supernatural powers.
> and maybe even the good emotions as a controlled source of power while maintaining balance and control ?
I was part of a campaign where Hope was the most powerful force of all, but I don't see it working without the GM I had, it depended too much on knowing his players and how to judge player's antics from actual hope and hopelessness.

>>51286223
>I'm not evil just because I perform the ritual of reality-death that requires me to anoint the ashes of a good and just king with the blood of thirteen innocent virgins slain by my own hands!
>Magic's just a tool and I'm just using this tool for the purpose of killing the BBEG which is a good action, so how dare you try and tell me I'm evil for using ritual of reality-death!

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>>51291002
>also trained the Exile
>trained two insanely powerful Jedi each with different and valuable attributes.
>The Jedi Council exiled her because all of her students fought in the Mandalorian wars. While they sat on their council seats acting like Sanctimonious asses, Spouting peace and other shit to war refugees who lost everything in the war.
Attond Rand Was Right. The Jedi and Sith are no different.

Were the Jedi masters right in their assertion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EtByaOxiwE

>>51291205
No.

>>51291205
Yes. They were following the lightside.

>>51291233
Nope, they were blind fools, Kreia was right about them, if for the wrong reasons. It's a good thing The Exiles teachings are what survived that period and not theirs.

>>51290434
>far-reaching, negative consequences
strange, no one ever mentioned those in the conversation
Is it another "anon is making stuff up" episode ?

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>>51291205
The title of this video fits so well with this scene.
Listening to the masters talk, "the end of the force and the end of the jedi", it's clear who was really afraid.
The jedi of this time, were less students of the force and more dogma. During the time of the movies, Grey Jedi (Jedi who don't completely follow or believe the Jedi teachings) like Qu-Gon-Jin could operate in the order even if they got on the council's nerves. But in this time, Grey Jedi like Kreia get kicked out, she wasn't even exiled for believing differently, but because all of her students fell. These guys were so focused on placing blame, they never tried to look for a reason, to find the source of the problem and fixing it, because that meant looking in a direction, they didn't want to.
And here they do it again. The Exile was the one person who could fight Darth NIhilus, simply because she was immune by virtue of being similar. Common sense should've told them that, if they had succeeded and fought him, they would've died, easily, then the whole galaxy would've followed.
The Exile was a wound in the force that lived, she represented the idea that their entire outlook in life was wrong, she existed beyond the sphere of their knowledge and limits of their beliefs and they thus tried to destroy her, not literally, but effectively. As before it was the same, instead of trying to understand, they placed blame and thus punishment.

>>51285902
>since when did Light=Good and Dark=Evil?
Eat a fucking bullet, OP.

>>51291205
>if you had stayed, you woul've changed us, and that, we cannot allow
Shitjedi/10
Where my meditation brothers at ?

>>51291304
Kreia was a Sith. And Qui-gon was not a Grey Jedi he was a Jedi Master who happened to disagree with the council. Grey Jedi do not exist.

>>51291304
>Grey Jedi like Kreia get kicked out, she wasn't even exiled for believing differently, but because all of her students fell
Yes, because what she taught them caused all her students to seek out the Dark Side in order to fulfill her dogma of self reliance and personal gain. Revan was probably the least offensive of them, being a genuinely decent person, like the Exile.
You hold the teacher responsible when they are the only one teaching, anon.

>>51285902
>since when did Light=Good and Dark=Evil?

Since always? That shit goes way back to, like, Babylonian myth. Maybe even further.

>>51291096
I mean, I think we're speaking of different things. I'm aware of them, but I'm speaking of the fact that the vast majority of the EU accepted the Light Side as a thing.

>>51291339
>Shitjedi/10
You gotta think about it like this, anon:
The Exile was noted, repeatedly, for being able to, thru a warped force connection, literally change the thought processes of the people around her.
The jedi masters feared her ability to literal make them do whatever she wanted them to do, even betray their deepest held beliefs, because she is a force vampire.
>>51291384
The EU missed the point on a lot of things, news at 11.

>>51291342
I don't think she cares much about the Sith specifically. It's more than she wants you to set up a new Jedi Order based on her teachings, without all her perceived failings of the originals.

Which is what you do in the Light Side ending.

>>51291400
>The EU missed the point on a lot of things, news at 11.

Very true, it was an eclectic mix of some great bits and a lot of trash.

>>51291462
Not that it really works, as TOR and the later stuff shows.

>only a sith deals in absolutes
>lol no you ain't getting your dick wet on academy time senpai, get used to celibacy
>lol no we didn't have time to save your mom from slavery lol we're not made out of time
>lol never get angry or sad senpai, that shit leads to the dark side, bottle that shit up and maybe smoke some blunts or something
>OMFG WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING WHY DO OUR DUDES KEEP FALLING TO THE DARK SIDE SMDH

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>>51286567
Agreed, the weak should fear the strong. Who needs such petty morality when we forge our own in the darkness of blackened hearts brother?

*raises clawed paw*
*draws Dark Magic enchanted katana*
*points it at the weak fools who believe in such dogma*

Which one of you foolish knaves dares to battle me, both in steel or in rhetoric?

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>>51285902
>>51286223

Magic is not technology. Magic is a living thing, with an energy and a will of its own. You have to account for that will and either persuade it to do what you want, harness what it wants to do anyway, or force it to obey you by trickery and willpower. When magic's natural will is to beneficent things, it's good, and when that will is to malevolent things, evil. In other words, good magic wants to do good and evil magic wants to do evil.

Take a healing spell, for example. Does your white mage type spellcaster know every little thing about every type of tissue, how it's supposed to work, what can be done to make it go wrong, and how to put it back together? No. They harness the energy to cast the spell and the magic takes care of the healing for them, they just need to not do something really retarded like cast a healing spell on someone who has a prosthetic implant or something. Can healing magic be used to do bad things? Sure. Torture someone, heal them, torture them again. But that's you being tricksy and subverting what the magic itself "intends" to do.

Same thing with evil magic. A "good necromancer" can command undead to do good things, of course. But what happens when undead aren't controlled? They display the true desires of the magic that animates them, hungering for destruction and the consumption of living things. Same thing with a summoned demon, or a plague spell: if you're not controlling them, their default state is to do bad things.

Every "good" habitual user of dark magic, regardless of what they manage to achieve, is guilty of arrogance and negligence to the safety of others. They're betting the lives and well-being of others on their estimation of their own abilities, and let me ask you: is the person with powers few others possess, a person who's willfully decided that the rules others follow about what's forbidden don't need to apply to them, really going to be the person who sees their own abilities objectively?

>>51291505
>WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING WHY DO OUR DUDES KEEP FALLING TO THE DARK SIDE SMDH
Really, anon, most padawans flunk out and become farmers. The ones strong enough to go full dark side and not get whacked immediately are the ones you here about, Anakin, Revan, Malak, Exar Kun and such.

>>51291400
No she wasn't a Force Vampire she was in fact the opposite, according to the EU some where it's down that she was the first known Vergence around a person, like Anakin, meaning she was a font of Force power.
>>51291462
Yeah, doesn't make her any less of a Sith but yeah.

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>>51291505
You know what to do.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

>>51291400
even if that is true, were they really in her presence 24/7 ? Wouldn't the impact be weaker then ?
Thanks for the precision tho, I thought it was just a way of speaking

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>>51291657
The jedi exile is a wound in the force. A black hole that siphoned the force from others. If allowed it would mean the death of the jedi. And the death of the foce. We must sever her connection to the force.

>>51291662
There's only one Sith that worked for and He became a Jedi in the end, name of Anakin Skywalker, ring a bell?

If it's decent game design then it's built in the mechanics of the dark arts.
I.e. blood magic in L5R inevitably brings Taint (magical pollution of soul that can't be reduced and gradually turns a tainted person into a monster).
It is possible to try and use it "for good", but with continued use fuckup is imminent. Had a character who tried to do it. Went all the way down the slippery slope (not that I didn't realize it OOC but it was fun to roleplay).

>>51291689
You are blind, Jedi, You cannot see the exile for what she is, because you are blinded by your perceptions you are letting your thoughts and preconceptions cloud your feelings.

jokes aside http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vergence
read it.

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>Relativism

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>>51291662
But in contrast, the Jedi Code leads to a detachment from the present and is primarily what led to the Mandolorian Wars, the Jedi Civil War, and the Clone Wars. Additionally, the Jedi code is flawed from a fundamental level due to it's double standards and hypocrisies. I think Atton summed it up perfectly in his rant against the Jedi, the advocate the truth except when they lie, the save the weak unless they serve to gain. At least the Sith are honest with their intentions and through that honesty are able to achieve greater heights and do so legitimately.
Meanwhile the Jedi refuse to raise a lightsaber until the libraries on Coruscant are on fire

>>51291800
Atton became a Jedi.

>>51285902
>since when did Light=Good and Dark=Evil?
I dont know. Ever since man first feared creatures of the night?

>>51285902
Here is why 'darkness' is seen as evil or at the very least foreboding: humans are a primarily diurnal species. The dark was a time of terror, of beasts, held only at bay by the light of campfire.

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>>51291828
The jedi became extinct after dantooine. The jedi that came after is are false. For they do not follow the lightside blindly.

>>51285902

The magic isn't 'dark' because of abstract reasons. Its dark because the effects of what it does are actually pretty reprehensible and the consequences are such that such things are best left not done.

That's how it should work, anyway. Not every game or setting puts the work in for this to make sense.

A great example of this is in Johnathan Strange and Mr Norrel. Strange, who is at this point following around the english army and providing what magical assistance he can, is tasked with finding out where some enemy troops have retreated to. Unfortunately, there are no prisoners to interrogate, all of the enemy soldiers at this particular battle are dead.

Strange looks through his books and finds a forbidden spell for calling back the souls of the dead to speak to them, and is all "well, its not exactly gentlemanly but its the right spell for the job. It can't be that bad."

So he gets a few fairly intact enemy corpses, casts the spell, and summons their souls back into their bodies from hell.

Nothing too bad happens, aside from the screaming corpses. He gets them calmed down enough and asks them his questions and gets the information he needs.

Afterwards, his commander says that he did good, but its time to send them back now.

Strange blinks. Send them back?

You know, end the spell.

The spell IS over. I cast it hours ago. They are here now. That's what the spell was supposed to d- OH I GET IT NOW, THIS IS WHY WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO THIS. *forehead slap*

They can't kill them again, because the bodies are already dead. Their souls are just trapped in them. They cart the bodies around for a few weeks out of a sense of obligation before eventually wrapping them in sheets and chains and dropping them over the side of a ship, because they don't want to deal with the stink anymore.

The only silver lining is that Strange is still PRETTY SURE this is better than being in hell.

Pretty sure.

>>51291800
> is primarily what led to the Mandolorian Wars
No, the Mandalorians invading is what led to the Mandalorian Wars. Blaming that on the Jedi just goes to show how desperate you are to blame everything on them no matter how ridiculous it is.

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>>51291939
The jedi had the chance to intervene early. But they didn't which escalated the raids into open warfare between the republic and them.

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The Jedi way, while maybe more traditionally moral, also has it's failings.

Completely shutting out negative emotion and attachment is sort of what led to their blindness towards the existence of Sideous and his disciples and machinations until it was too late.

>>51291974
Because they foresaw that getting involved would lead to worse.
And it did.
Revan was far more a threat than the Mandalorians ever could be, able to take the Core Worlds.
And created the Sith Triumvirate with the whole business of Malachor, leading the Jedi to be directly wiped out

>>51292177
The entire situation was a damn me if I do. Damn me if I dont.

>>51291885
You're an idiot because there is no light side, there is only the Force.
>>51291974
No they didn't, War had already begun when they decided not to act.
>>51292177
True but they were ultimately wrong, as Revan and The Exile proved, as Yoda says looking at the future is unreliable, and you cannot let what you see color your decisions in the now, that was their failing.
>>51292130
The Jedi did not originally preach shutting them out, they lost their way, and Lukes way brought the original interpretation of the code back out into use, where rather than shut out your emotions, you deal with them and conquer your passions.
>>51292194
Yeah true.

>>51292224
>True but they were ultimately wrong, as Revan and The Exile proved
How did they prove it?
The entire thing was a Xanatos Gambit set up by the Sith outside space to crush the strength of the Jedi and weaken the Republic beyond repair.
Even in KotOR2, Go-To says outright the Republic was weakened nearly to internal collapse and would take decades, if not centuries to gain it's former strength and productivity, especially if another attack on the scale of the Mandalorians happened (foreshadowing).
The True Sith then attacked and waltz thru the Jedi and Republic forces like they weren't even there, and even goaded the Mandalorians into attacking AGAIN.

>>51291505
Obi Wan broke all three of those at one point, and he turned out fine.

>>51292272
They did because TOR was never canon and was utter shit, a godlike Sith Emperor who was basically Nihilus btw, there was nothing but peace after that until the next real threat (in the timeline skipping over TOR shit) to the galaxy because two Godlike force users wiped out the threat in the unknown regions, nothing but this would have happened.

>>51292350
>who was basically Nihilus btw
Even worse was that Bioware utterly missed the point of Nihlus' power. It was an example of why power you can't control is actually worthless, meant to contrast the Exile, who willingly gave up theirs and was just fine, and comparable to Sion, who literally couldn't live without it.
Nihlus was never meant to be truly strong, because he was essentially a mad dog that needed to be put down.
The fact that Bioware saw this and thought "now that would be a great thing to give to Donut Steele! But those downsides... can't be having that" Is very telling of their writing ability

>>51289905
Hell is filled with the zombies of those who failed to be Doomguy.

>>51292420
I know that's why I brought it up, cuz at first I wanted to play but as soon as I heard the main Bad Guy sucked life from planets and people like Nihilus but became Immortal and stayed perfectly sane, I was like NOPE!

>>51285902
First reason because they is based on the simple morality of the dark ages where the church was full on autistic "I am right and everyone else is wrong and if you disagree you will be purged by fire." mentality.

Second reason is that most games are supposed to be governed by numbers doing simplistic things that is not possible in real life. That is the focus o the games, the morality and the world behind it need to be simple and it should enable the things the players do. Morality is a huge and complicated can of worms that everyone have different ideas about. If you want to theorize and debate about morality then go and join a philosophy club instead of playing said games.

tl;dr. Games are not about the discussions of morality and you really should stop nagging on this dumb issue of yours over and over again.

>>51292499
The incompetence of Bioware boggles my mind, Anon, and I'll never truly grasp it.
The whole point of the triumvirate was that the truly dangerous Sith are the ones like Sheev and Kreia, where the fact that they can barbecue you with their mind is actually the least dangerous part about them, while the ones that relied on force power levels/OP abilities, like Sion and Nihlus, would be fucked the moment someone found a way around them.

How the hell did they manage to fuck that up?!

>>51292614
Because honestly BioWare hasn't been good for a long time, and wasn't great back then even.

>>51292614
I think we can blame EA, that sound about right? because Bioware still makes good games when left to their own devices, I loved all of Mass effect for example, And DA:O and DA:I, so it's MMO's and when Ea pushes crap that they tend to suffer.

>>51292656
>I loved all of Mass effect for example, And DA:O and DA:I
Anon, we gonna have to agree to disagree.
Regardless, TOR was hamstrung by legacy ideas, totems and sacred cows not interacting well in the environment they were trying to force.

>>51292728
I didn't say there weren't things in those games I disliked, and if you're talking ME3, I only played after all the DLC was out because there was a deal on PSN for all three, as for DA:I I disliked the trans type shit, but mostly ignored it, and with DA:O, that I had no problems with personally.

>>51292656
This just means you're not paying attention because the first ME was decent, the second began a downward trend, and the third was a botch, though the game mechanics were something they'd become fundamentally not an RPG even anymore. DA:O was flawed and not really well written, and the world is a bit silly and lacking in scale, and DA:I was actually honestly pretty meh.

Everyone who was good at BioWare has long since left. While EA can be blamed for some things, BioWare has fucked up a lot on their own too.

>>51292787
Not denying that, just said I loved the games flaws and all, But I liked ME3's story perhaps because I didn't get stupid and hype myself up for it.

>>51289272
>The most boring Sith triggering anyone

The only thing worthy of note Vectivus did was having his cake and eating it to--a Sith Lord passing surrounded by friends and family is a luxurious way to go. At the very least, he passed on his teachings to someone less milquetoast.

>>51285902
>Why do most game have a simplistic Morality when dealing with Magic?

Because Gygax's D&D was implicitly Christian. In the beginning, the Saints were Lawful Good, the Godlings (pagan deities) Chaotic Good, Devils were Lawful Evil, and Demons were Chaotic Evil. Alignment has been changed a lot since then (for example, humans are no longer Lawful Good by default) but the world view still lingers.

> Why is it when a person uses the Dark Arts he is now labeled as Evil?
The old answer was "because he's trafficking with Evil powers". Alignment, as the name suggests, was about the entities with whom one aligns. Again, it doesn't mean what it used to. Arguably, it doesn't mean anything at all.

>since when did Light=Good and Dark=Evil?
Mani was born in 216CE and died in 276.

>>51292820
I mean, that's the thing though, it fails to actually resolve stuff. The big points from prior games are largely brought in merely to resolve them but they rarely have any major effect on the actual events, and that undermines the entire overarching plot, which has its own major flaws.

DA:O has so many holes and the world is just too damn small, and DA:I doesn't really fix that. That we don't even talk about DA2 also needs to be addressed.

BioWare has been a low-tier developer for years now. They may not be the dumpster fire that is Gearbox, but they're not far off.

>>51292851
>Mani was born in 216CE and died in 276.

Good reference to a fascinating religion, but to be fair the light/dark duality was found in Zoroastrianism heavily too.

>>51291638
>Really, anon, most padawans flunk out and become farmers.

This subject is address in one of the clone wars novels. Most of the flunking out is done about age 8 or 9. A lot of the kids just are not cut out to be Jedi. It is around one out of ten for this single phase of training. After words a new phase starts with the goal being to get a knight or master to take you as their padawan. There is a strong amount of competition, however is not be in the bottom of the class. Some crack under pressure. Then there are contests (usually combat based). Those that do very poorly are flunked out. Those that do some what poorly are recycled into the next group to do that training phase. Basically repeating a grade. Those that do some are excepted to do VERY well in the contests because they are a year older. Failing that is a flunk out.

Every is trying very hard at that point because getting kicked out destroys their self validation. It removes them from their 'real' family. It is a real dick thing to put a kid thru at that age.

Almost no padawans flunk out however. All the ones lacking in drive or talent are removed before they become padawns.

>>51292860
It was resolved fine, perhaps not the best it could have been but fine. I think a lot of people are still butthurt that they didn't do some kind of open-ended all choices mean something ending, which was something they were never going to do, and anyone who heard them say otherwise was fooling themselves. DA:2 had an okay story, but it didn't stack up to DA:O, and lacked all real RPG mechanics, and was too focused on action, literally because of EA.

They may very well be lower-tier, at least in your view, but their titles are still Triple A, and I doubt that's going to change because despite their flaws they still sell, so if you want better games you gotta start campaigning to make people spend their money differently.

>>51292971
>which was something they were never going to do, and anyone who heard them say otherwise was fooling themselves
Devs shouldn't be lying to their customers outright, man.
>their titles are still Triple A
Due to the money of EA. AAA games are a result of money and namebrand, not quality now. Final Fantasy used to be a AAA franchise based on the fact that each release would be at the forefront of technology on top of being one of the best rpgs you would find, at least that year.

>>51292971
I mean, if folks wanna support them, that's there business. I'm not mad that they're successful. Good for them. I'll critique their games, and I don't think they should, but that is basically just my view.

And it's more than the ending on ME3 though? It's every little thing. The point is that even if they never were going to do it, it still fails as a story because it's fundamentally pointless. It's weak in many other areas too, though, just even as a linear story.

But, like, being mass market isn't necessarily a BAD thing. I read mass market fiction, I recognize they're not great but they're fun. Aint nothing wrong with that.

Just don't want to pretend that they're good, you know what I mean?

>>51293030
I didn't say they should just said people were fooling themselves, I agree it was a shit thing to do,but i can't change them.
Yeah I agreee on that but I still consider Final fantasy to be top tier with 13 and it's ilk as an exception, 15's doing pretty well so far, and there's no way the remake of 7's going to fail at least over here in the US.
>>51293044
I know what you mean, and don't really disagree. I was simply saying that, I thought the Mass Effect series as a whole, felt like a good story. Bioware shouldn't have fired the writer of each game before 3 to keep it coherent but what can we do?

>>51292971
>>51293044
The problem with ME 3 is that literally nothing about the main plot makes sense, and I think the ending gets special attention because, outside revealing the shameless lies told by Bioware, that was the point nobody sane could fool themselves into thinking it was going to get better.
The crucible was a worse bit of writing than the ending, for a multitude of reasons, but the ending was an event horizon of bad writing.

There are things to like about ME3, like some of the character interactions, the gunplay, Tuchanka (while still not stellar writing, it was the only thematic link throughout the trilogy that didn't get raped or turned into something retarded, like the Quarian/Geth conflict did), but I'd never replay it outside the multiplayer, which was also surprisingly good.

>>51293140
Oh, and it also wastes the potential of almost everything from the previous games. Given Me2's plot infamously went precisely nowhere and only gave characters to us, that's quite the fuck up

>>51293140
>>51293158
The main plot made sense, it was just entirely ass-pull, which is fine by me, but not to most other people. They fucked fans over, yeah, but my not having looked at the Mass Effect series before I played them and all their DLC, not buying into the news or any of that shit. I played them with no shit to color my perceptions, and they all made sense. They seemed to have different narrative direction each game, yes, but they did make sense, they just had flaws, and some are hard to swallow. Honestly I think Shepard is the only reason the games kept going, very compelling protagonist, if only because of the voice actors.

>>51293276
>The main plot made sense,
It really doesn't.
It relies on people working on a project passed on from potentially hundreds of previous generations, despite the Reapers explicitly scouring the galaxy for millennia to detect that sort of shit, and where the only thing that got past their detection was a top secret project that didn't have any existing records for the Reapers to find.
Nobody working on the project knew what it did, or how it even worked.
Nobody working on the project would have known the language of the previous race, except Shepard and Javik for the Protheans, and they didn't even work on it.
None of the other cycles would have had access to the Mass Relays, given that's what the Reapers hit first, so had to work with the resources of a single system.
If they found it before the Reapers struck, not one of the other cycles put 2 and 2 together.
In either case, not one indoctrinated agent ever found its way in and ratted them out.

That is what needed to happen for the basic plot to work.
That makes no fucking sense at all, and that's not even getting into Starbrat and the space magic.

>>51292851
>In the beginning
>"beginning" having any alignment but Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic

>>51293382
It requires coincidence and great fortune to occur, true, we know nothing yet about previous cycles, how this concept would have survived is not known, we don't need to know how, just that it did. The reason the crucible was found in the mars archive and was because earth was somehow left alone by reapers, the Protheans left the "primitive" worlds alone as soon as the reapers attacked, leaving no trace, how they left no way to track back to it, I don't know, how the reapers missed it nobody knows. It's pure Ass-Pull, like I said, but it still makes sense, even if it's astronomically unlikely. As for starbrat, I don't care, I didn't hate or like him he was simply a plot device to me, and he served that function well. Lastly Biotics or really force powers, who cares? they've been there since ME1, and were explained well even if they wouldn't work in our universe.

>>51293551
>It requires coincidence and great fortune to occur, true, we know nothing yet about previous cycles, how this concept would have survived is not known, we don't need to know how, just that it did
In something like Star Wars, that would be true.
Mass effect was built on actually explaining concepts, even if it was with techno babble.
As it stands, anyone that cares about the setting will immediately call foul. I personally was assuming it was an obvious trap the player was being railroaded into, but that was apparently giving Bioware too much credit.

>The reason the crucible was found in the mars archive and was because earth was somehow left alone by reapers... It's pure Ass-Pull, like I said, but it still makes sense, even if it's astronomically unlikely.
See above. the series previously took pains to explain why a single cycle managed to have a single installation spared. That it doesn't explain how multitudes could do the exact same is inexcusable.

>As for starbrat, I don't care, I didn't hate or like him he was simply a plot device to me, and he served that function well
>and he served that function well
In one stroke, he steamrolled the entire point of Mass Effect, which was strength in unity, and in particular he steamrolled every Geth/Quarian related mission you've been on, should you be attempting to reconcile them, by claiming it was all pointless. That is not a good serving.

>Lastly Biotics or really force powers, who cares? they've been there since ME1, and were explained well even if they wouldn't work in our universe.
Space magic refers to the Red/Blue/Green generator, anon, not biotics.
Biotics are very well explained in Mass Effect, which is one of the reasons why the lack of explanation of anything in 3 is so egregious

>>51293755
on your first point, I don't disagree. I just feel differently about it, like I said, I wasn't one of the fans following it all that time I was just playing them through, and honestly really enjoying them even 3.

All hat requires is a little thought if Mars archive was left alone this cycle why couldn't it have been the same for each previous cycle? one observation outpost, or so on was missed the reapers aren't not Gods, they can't see everything and certainly can't find everything.

I don't believe he did that's inherently subjective, he gave me another reason to go for synthesis, spite, he may have been a pessimistic ass, but I proved him wrong in the end, magical solution or not. I'd actually argue that they should never have used something that wouldn't be defeatable, without a Deus Ex Machina, as the series major and really only antagonist, that's their biggest flaw.

I chose Green, and it didn't bother me, as like I said, wasn't a long-time fan, and I saw something like it coming, yeah it's an ass-pull and you don't have to like it, but sadly i'm fairly sure they used it partly because of time-constraints, and partly because what everybody imagined was never going to be anything but ending slides telling you what happened, accounting for three games worth of choices and making ALL of them matter was and, I think still is, damn near impossible, if not literally impossible to program, write, animate and so on to still fit on one Blu-ray disc.

>>51288071
Grey Jedi autists strike again.

>>51294607
No you

>>51291205
So os anyone going to mention Kreia parts?

>>51291501
TOR is a fucking mess and mockery to Kotor

>>51296191
they already fucking did.

>>51291683
Nobthe impact would go stronger

>>51291683
the exile is so powerful that their mere presence is able to warp of others they're near and alter their alignments.

>>51285902
The thing that makes "Dark magic" evil is the material or ritual components necessary to make it happen.

Summoning demons by itself isn't "dark magic" its dangerous magic, unless the ritual itself requires you to torture someone to summon them, then its "dark magic"

>>51296686
Pretty sure dangerous magic falls under dark arts

>>51285902
What's the source on that touhou manga?

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>>51286267
Your picture reminded me of this one.

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>>51296863
Road of recollection. By fuantei

>>51296686
>dangerous magic
you can cook yourself alive if you fuck up a fireball
Transmutation spells can mess you up pretty badly as well.
Point to any kind of magic and I'll tell you how its dangerous to the caster

>>51297432
>>51296823
this was meant for you

>>51297432
So what you are saying is that we should kill Magic. Because its using us to feed its ever growing hunger

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>>51291278
They were following the force's will. The force was aafraid of the exile due to nature. Ergo they were right.

>>51297979
the force was not or the exile would not have survived, your bullshit is weak anon.

>>51298003
Are you doubting the Jedi Master's wisdom.

>>51298117
I am doubting the wisdom of those particular Jedi Master's as they were clearly and unequivocally, wrong.

>>51298232
And so was Kreia.

>>51298258
Doesn't mean they were right.

>>51298117
>>51298232
>>51298286
But that was what lead to their downfall. The jedi order and the sith were two sides of an extreme.

>>51291914
In the TV series they set them on fire instead, but it was equally horrifying.

>>51285902
>/TG/ Why do most game have a simplistic Morality when dealing with Magic? Why is it when a person uses the Dark Arts he is now labeled as Evil? since when did Light=Good and Dark=Evil?
Why are people retarded?

/tg/ has a problem with defaulting to Dungeons and Dragon's setting. IN SUCH A SETTING it is evil

Which is where the vast majority of the thread come from. If we to discount all the D&D threads we're left with... /tg/ not really having a problem.

>>51298393
Morality is Subjective anon.

>>51298334
no the Jedi are right the Sith are wrong, in that era both were wrong and the Exile fixed the Jedi, so your point is moot

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>>51291205
Sort of. Kreia loved Surik because she was able to live without the Force. Something the Jedi Masters cannot comprehend due to not being a light-sided thing. Surik had always been able to create ridiculously powerful force bonds, but the natural 'vacuum' effect she had on the Force made it so that her opinions tended to have greater weight. You saw a more advanced thing with Nihilus - he corrupted the world around him instead of just peoples opinions.

>>51291205
The thing that pisses me off is that Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar seemed to realize that they fucked up (Zez-Kai Ell more-so than Kavar), and then they turn around and try to cut the Exile off from the Force.

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Kreia is the most suicidal of all characters I've ever seen in the saga,
her final ambition was the product of her own disappointment with the
force as the one thing that gave life a higher meaning, devoting herself
to the light, being banished, trying to accept the dark as the one
truth only to be betrayed again. But in reality she was more
disappointed at these sects which, trying to embrace the force, became
isolated and disconnected from their reality and having a condescending
view towards everything that the force connected in the first place.
That's why she also wanted to be stopped by the Exile, because she was
her hope for the force renewed. She was someone that experienced a
massive pain product of her bonds and ran away from it in the same way
Jedi reject being too empathic, but in reestablishing it and teaching it
to her friends she became the example of how after such trauma you can
still decide that experiencing these connections in such a high level is
worth it.

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>>51291794
>Moral Relativism

>>51293382
Mass effect 3 was such a fucking let down

>>51290993
Paladin Propagandist

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Daily Reminder the Jedi Will throw one another under The bus. Such Followers of the LightSide

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFw4see3v8o

IN MY HOMEBREW
It's an industrial era sort of setting, and instead of traditional alignments you have positions on different political ideas like liberalism, socialism, absolutism, nationalism, theocracy, anarchism, and anti-industrialists.

It would be a bit surreal and hard to design, but you could have magic be based off of political ideas.

Or you could do something a bit more traditional, and have the different schools of abilities be technology, bioengineering, spirits, and nature.

>>51292272
Jedi council's big mistake was not telling the rank and file Jedi "Mandalorians are mercenaries, someone's paying them to do this. Let's find out who that is and end the problem at the source." That would have prevented the whole Reven war and him dragging every Jedi recruit he could find into a space station literally powered by evil crystals which destroyed a galaxy spanning civilization due to their evil radiation. I can't emphasize enough how colossally stupid a space station powered by evil crystals is and it wasn't just the power, lights, computers, droids, even the controls buttons were made from those evil red force crystals.

It's like building a warship ENTIRELY out of weapons grade plutonium and being surprised when something goes wrong.

>>51302150
But nobody knew they were being controlled until Revan killed their leader

>>51302232
A bunch of hillbilly dumbfucks who can't scrape a functional spaceship on their own and rely on pillaging planet after planet for spare parts for hundreds of years and who's main accomplishment up to that point was enslaving a race of giant lizard pacifists (and turn that giant lizard pacifist exosuits into combat vehicles because they literally have nothing else they could use) suddenly have a fleet of unknown (sith) ships and endless supplies with no known source.

Jedi Council knew there was something behind the Mandalorians, a real threat. The fact that the mandalorians were being paid to do what they were doing was obvious.

>>51302301
But that was the Issue with the Jedi. Millions were dying to the war and all of them rose their hand and said no. The Republic even ask for their assistance. Revan and others just couldn't sit on their asses while saying their a disturbance in the light side of the force

>>51302359
Leads to the problem of being a bunch of precognisants. They knew that getting involved with the mandalorians would result in the destruction of the republic, and it did even though it wasn't at the direction of the council. Instead of millions dying in the mandalorian war, trillions died in the sith wars and the collapse of society that followed. All because "Revan and the others couldn't sit on their asses" for a month while the source of the mandalorian money, ships and supplies was found.

>>51302410
They had a almost two decade to figure out the source. From 3976 BBY to 3960 BBY,. 16 years.

>>51286742
Hail Boethiah!

>>51302458
Again, precognisants resulted in inaction.

Like seeing someone get raped outside your apartment but a time traveller tells you that if you do anything it'll cause world war 3.

>>51286945
You write well.

>>51285902

>why do cultural dogmas and memes exist?

One reason is that a common negative thing is trying to be prevented and rather than spreading the explanation it is easier to spread the rule(sometimes because the explanation is not concise or clear).
An example would be religions that forbid the consumption of pork. Ancients see people sometimes die after eating pork but they don't understand why, so they just make a rule that they wont eat it and won't let their kids do it either. Flash forward a few thousand years and we understand that it has to do with parasites and bacteria, but people hold on to the establish social order because "there must be another good reason".
Another reason is because an established social system / power dynamic is trying to be maintained.
An example would be how people were (and are) treated like cattle in many nations any attempt to improve social conditions for people such as making hazardous work places provide safety gear was labeled as liberalism, anarchism, communism, socialism, terrorism, rebellion, criminality, degeneracy, etc which was cracked down on and even supported by the very people it would benefit.

That said its kinda obvious that not all social rules are equal in terms of fervor of belief, rationality and benefit. For instance rules against wanton slaughter are strictly enforced, easily rationalized by anyone, and obviously beneficial to everyone. Where as a rule like not leaving chop sticks resting in a bowl is not strictly enforced, not easily rationalized, and not obviously beneficial.


In short such rules exist because the masses are made of meme loving fucbois who would rather not think about it, but sometimes that not a bad thing.

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>>51302492
The Jedi were fucked Either way. I will even Say revan action is what ultimate saved the Republic and the Jedi Order

>>51302524
So everything is Subjective?

>>51285902
100% of the cases spoken of here depend entirely on the setting. If the creator decided that good and evil are measurable forces in the universe then you're bum out of luck and you can't be a good necromancer because the creator of the universe thought necromancers were bad, in which case the entire setting is simplistic and bad by extension.

If the setting allows moral relativity and doesn't assume every necromancer is evil off the bat or that a demon doesn't need a forked tongue and arrow tail then it really depends on how you use it.

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Morality doesn't mean shit when Good and Evil are literal measurable energies with morally good and morally evil creatures made of them.

>>51302492
If their precognition was so exceptional maybe they should have seen that doing nothing would cause other jedi to act. Even with something being behind the madalorean wars it didn't do them any good to not assist, and it isn't like their ability to look into such things vanishes while going to war (if anything I'd assume the opposite)

>>51285902
have you tried not playing 3.x, faggot? its your own fault for hailing 3.x as the alpha and omega of fantasy

>>51302879
I wonder why 3.x became THE gold standard and fulcrum of all discussion on /tg/ for metaphysics.

>>51298393
and by Dungeons and Dragons we mean "3.x D&D alignments, which can explicitly be tweaked to suit your campaign, and nothing else"

>>51290699

Luca is dead. The canon is not up to him anymore.

>>51298414
No its not.

>>51297702
Why do you think the world is the way it is? We already did. We murdered it in its sleep and never again shall it awaken.

>>51288405
Ooooohkay.

As a social species, we view "beneficial to the group" as GOOD and "detrimental to the group" as EVIL. Murder's universally condemned for this reason: it weakens the group. Executing murderers is more grey; does it weaken the group further, or remove a weakness in the group?

Because our fantasy settings are often analogies for real life, the conflict between "good" and "evil" acts IRL is transferred into fiction as a conflict between Good and Evil.

MtG represents the social/selfish dichotomy as White and Black mana, respectively. Selfish can be good and used for good in the same way that an oppressive social structure can crush the life from those under it.

D&D has a cosmic Good and Evil the same way it has a cosmic Law and Chaos. Read the Book of Vile Darkness, it's got some interesting points on how to do good and evil in your campaign setting.

The book says the default rulebook assumes a black and white scale of cosmic good and evil, but then lists a number of ways to create moral greys in that setting (e.g. two 'good' canon gods fighting).

Magic: The Gathering's most iconic villains are the Phyrexians and the Eldrazi. The Eldrazi are extraplanar kaiju with no allignment. The Phyrexians are in D&D terms, Lawful Evil. In MtG they're strongly Black/White/Blue.

The cult of Rakdos is evil (CE) because it seeks unbridled freedom, sadism, masochism and hedonism. The Phyrexians are evil because they seek inter-planar peace and unity, through Borg-style assimilation.

They are villains because as humans, we wish for freedom. The freedom to not be flensed by a bloodwitch AND the freedom not to be vivisected and lobotomised by a faceless pope waifu.

>>51292430
But there is a Doomguy. Which means its possible.

Not a good argument, but certainly a viable one.

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>>51299088
>Digganobs.

>>51303622
>I did it for the wookies

>>51289905
>not knowing doomguy betrayed a civilization to the demons before becoming the being of pure PURGE he is now

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Why did she care about the Exile

>>51303590
>Which means its possible.
There is a huge difference between something that is strictly possible and the probability of that thing happening. You sound a lot like those people, that when told it's a million to one shot, go "so I still have a chance, right?".

>Not a good argument
You are right it isn't.

There are people that have survived with very few ill effects getting shot in the face from mere inches away. Doesn't make it a valid strategy to say you are going to go around catching bullets with your head, because there is a possibility you won't die.

The Darkside and the Lightside arebinherently a corruption in the force. The force by it's nature is neutral, it's harmony, it is balance, choosing neither side. The Dark Side. And the Light Side disrupts this.

http://www.strawpoll.me/12152284/r

lets settle this

>>51291574
The strong rule the weak in the end anyway. Just don't see the strength so narrowly. Being well-liked and having a good reputation is also a strength.

>>51287834
I can't see shit in the dark.
Not in color anyway

>>51302692
and what is subjectively right to enough people becomes objective

>>51304506
This guy gets it.

Like it or not this is the path Disney is gonna take Star Wars. We've already had glimpses of it in the Clone Wars cartoon and new Rebels show. Bet you dollars to donuts Luke is going to teach Rey how to be "balanced" since he abandoned his temple and is technically the last Jedi.

>>51304150
Kreia cared about her students.

Also, The Exile was a Force Wound who had a special ability to bind herself to everyone she met in the force in a passive and immediate way.

Kreia hoped to use her two students, The Exile and Darth Nihilus to basically destroy the force/sever the galaxies connection to it. The Exile could bind herself to all life, and Nihilus could consume the connection or something.

Kreia was deeply influenced by teachings from what essentially was a Sith Insane Asylum on... Malachor? Fuck I can't remember. She felt disappointed in the force, felt all sentient beings were pawns in a war between two eternal forces. And in the Exile and Nihilius she found a means of ending the war by removing the force.

Not that any of this is canon in faggy new star wars.

>>51304756
That would piss me off so much. I liked Luke as basically the last of the old Jedi in the old canon; he was super "Orthodox" for lack of a better word.

Anyone else really disappointed by new canon?

>>51286029
>>51286729
>>51291585
>>51302847

Anyone ever read the old Blizzard Diablo book series? They had "good" Necromancers. They dead were just vessels for magic - sometimes partners.

The Necromancers believed that the world rested on the back of a dragon, and balance must be kept (mainly against the forces of darkness) to keep the world in place. The viewed themselves as the good guys and both examples of Necs that I can remember in those books acted morally.

Though, they weren't viewed morally.

Breaking a taboo and being evil aren't the same things imo.

>>51304863
>Anyone else really disappointed by new canon?
That they will finally address that the light is just as Corrupt as the Dark no matter how Subtle?

>>51286223
Hello Kyle Katarn. Newsflash: You're neutral.

>>51285902
>/TG/ Why do most game have a simplistic Morality

you could have stopped your post at this.

Also
>randomly capitalizing words

Why do people do this

>>51305211
Hes no longer canon anon. He doesn't exist

>>51304886
Breaking a taboo is a sign you are heading towars evil

>>51286707
>but only free to be a massive cunt because not being a huge dick only ever hellbent on more power is weakness and therefore not freedom

Sith are fucking retarded.

>>51305435
He didn't exist before either, nothing's changed

>>51305630
Edgy 13 year olds

>>51305601
Only if you have no self control.

>>51305738
Are you so arrogant?

>>51305630
I think they just get caught up in the power bit and keep trying to return to it. Or the urges to use said power for petty shit.

>>51305435
Then how is he shitposting on /tg/ then?

>>51304150
Plain and simple, because the Exile was able to do things she, despite her awesome power and wisdom, was simply not able do and thus she needed the Exile to further her own agenda. She tells this at the first time you ask her.

>>51304823
You know you could be a gentleman and put a "FUCKING SPOILERS!!!" sign into your post.

>>51304863
>Luke
>Orthodox Jedi
What? I mean old canon was a huge mess but Luke wasn't Orthodox at the slightest. He literally rewrote the whole Jedi code to have it functional for the Galaxy the new jedi order had to be founded. He even willingly joined the dark side for a time to experience it and learn its way to become wiser and combat it better.