Pathfinder General /pfg/

>>51275349
Robes of Arcane Heritage.

My DM throws around strong magic items like candy. Snagged one of these at level 6. I am become death.

>>51275349
In Giantslayer we came across Giant Porn Tapestries.

My most cherished treasure is the love and affection I feel for you!

And gemstones. I love me some sapphires!

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>>51275349
>>51275470

Can you use the mythic power from Champion Blowback to puch a dude upwards with an uppercut?

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So, we have the "impact" weapon special ability that increases the effective size of the weapon by one, right? How come there hasn't been a "greater impact" quality? Something along the lines of "when a creature of the appropriate size uses this weapon, it is treated as a weapon x size categories larger for the first attack he makes each round"? Maybe with the added note that it does not stack with "actual size increases"?

Might as well scribe this down in "things to suggest if there is a LV2 playtest"

I need an animal theme for my Paladin || Avowed for WotR, what should I be aiming for?

Stag, Lion, Falcon, Hound... Or Fireflies?

>>51275577
What sort of Avowed is it?
I'm fond of wolf themes.

>>51275582

I'm considering either Celestial or Court Fey.

Wolf seems nice, we Abyss Watchers now?

Question- for an UnRogue, is it better to have three stats at +3- Intelligence, Dexterity and Charisma? Or is it better for me to have Dex/Charisma up to +4, Intelligence to +2 and Dex/Charisma +3?

>>51275747
I'd want Dex at +4,. Int at +2 or +3 is fine, since you already have 8 skill points per level, and while Cha is useful if you want to be a face, just a +1 or +2 is fine.

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>>51275349
I've given out land and influence as treasure before.

If the campaign had continued, the PCs could have used it to become senators.

>>51275747
First, do you want your character to be an autistic savant?

If so, then use stats as dump stats. If not then don't.

Generally in optimising terms it's better to max a few stats and ditch the rest, then use stat swaps to make the dumped stats not matter.

>>51275822
Gonna need a source on that pic.

>>51275822
>>51275838

>>51275822
What the fuck?

Has anyone got any cute Tiefling pics? Preferably roguish, sneaky-maybe ones?

My group and I are trying to solve some problems for/in a mine. In exchange, we're getting a percentage of the profits monthly... Provided we take care of future problems as well.

>>51275900
>avowed_horse_patron_in_political_campaign.png

>>51275935
And? What's the problem?

>>51275955
I have a feeling it's going to bite us in the ass, but that's what we agreed to and it should do some interesting stuff.

>>51275973

You're gonna have to get some slaves to work that mine.

Mineral extraction in the Middle Ages was hellish.

I'm sure you guys have talked about it a million times, and I'm very sorry to bother you with this, but I'm sort of at my wits end here.

I'm a newby GM with a group of 5 more or less complete beginners. One min/maxed his character to hell and back, the rest didn't.

He has 19 str, 14 char, 15 co as a Paladin.
He has 46 HP on level 4 right now.

Out of combat he can do literally fucking nothing, but that doesn't bother him, since the only thing he wants to do is "do damage xD".

I could hurt him in battles, but basically only if every single encounter consists of every enemy focusing on him while ignoring everyone else.

His combat capabilties are so far ahead of the rogue, cleric, ranger an sorcerer, they all combine powers to take down 1 enemy together while he alone kills 2.

I should mention we're playing the Runelords adventure path and he almost constantly fucks up his calculations, so I supect he isn't actually that crazy overpowered.

Or is he?

What do you do against a Paladin that uses self heal while hitting things with a two hander and has the highest saving throw in every category of the group.

Also 46 hp. The ranger has 22 ffs

>>51275349
The respect of all the powers in the entire Northern Reaches, and the personal commendation of the Paladin King Marsh.
An entire game busting my hump to earn respect and playing politics while the other players ignored it all entirely and ran off murderhoboing paid off in spades.

Guys guys, guys! You're forgetting the greatest non-metal treasures out there.

Large, stuffed sacks of saffron, long bolts of silk and other luxuries you could indulge in for a night or put yourself inside, with a little work.

>>51276008
So: paladins are good at doing what you say he is doing. It seems a bit implausible but not that bad.

The important question: is everyone having fun?

>>51275986
Nah, there's already a union of sorts that does it. We've discussed maybe helping out the union not get as fucked over, though it would arguably cut into our profit margins and may actually ruin the mine functioning.

>>51276008
>Out of combat he can do literally fucking nothing, but that doesn't bother him, since the only thing he wants to do is "do damage xD".

Are the other players begrudging him doing his tanky job well?

If so, don't worry about it, throw 4 enemies at the group at a time, where 3 tackle that guy, and the 4th tries to sneak round and stab the sorc or cleric, while the others can go full tacticool.

If they're not having fun, consider allowing the other players to retool to make themselves better, or give multiple scenarios where each player can do their part.

>>51276008
Look over his sheet, make sure his numbers are kosher, first off.
How do the other players feel? If they are having fun, it's not really a problem.
Your real problem is because you are running an AP, you can't present a better rounded experience, so change shit up to display his weakness in other areas.
Honestly tho, pallie with 14 charisma ain't even a real thing, and no, he hasn't even begun to minmax a paladin. 19 str and a twohander is just plain sense for a damage dealer, and in APs, the moment you don't make a beginner character, you walk all over them.

>>51276008
46 HP? Do you roll for health? Such a large amount would require him to have gotten (assuming max hp at 1st) 10, 9, 9 in his rolls.
Also, make him face neutral enemies, which means no smite evil, taking away a big chunk of his damage.

>>51276008
have you tried not playing D&D

>>51276008
Ranger seems low on HP more than he seems high.

If you do averages (which you should), ranger should be at 10+15.5+4xCon, which should put him over 30. Paladin should be similar.

If you're actually rolling for HP: The fuck you doin mugga? With +2 Con and FCB +1, he can have 34 base HP, which is definitely possible with rolls, albeit above average.

>>51276008
>>51276086
>15 con, d10 HD, 4 FCBs
10+6*3+8+4+6 (Tribal Scars)
36

>>51276120
>>51276086
I meant 46, fuck.

>>51276032
Yes and no.

Everyone who is not him is having fun outside of combat. They RP, they find out shit, it's great.
Whenver no fight is going on, he is completely passive, absolutely says nothing. He will get increasingly audibly annoyed, sighing and moaning. At some point he will angrily say that all this sneaking around "leads to nothing", after that sneaking around killed 4 encounters without waking the enemy camp.

In combat, I have the feeling a lot of the group feel frustrated and inadequate.

Look, the job of a Paladin is to kill evil things. But this is a campaign about killing evil things AND he is the only one wanting to min/max to hell and back. For example he wants a Dragon that he doesn't ride for his divine bond. He looked up the necessary talents. I would need to read through the rules to check all that but come on.

Also I made the mistake of allowing him a weapon that levels with him in the beginning, with the caveate of him giving most of his money away (since he will gain constant wealth in his weapon automatically).

Basically he wants to be Saber from Fate and perfect in every way and the strongest and the chosen one (his sword chose him to save the world (not kidding), he also wants king arthur to be in his sword (not a joke) he also plays a tian girl of 18 years with blue eyes and blonde hair (not a joke))

I just worry where this leads to eventually.

>>51276008
12 Hp at lvl 1, taking an average of 5.5 rounding up to 6+2 gives us 8 times 3 for 24+12=36
I think he might be taking full hit die or rolling then getting consistently above average. But it's possible he's adding his FCB for 4 HP so 40 and then if he took toughness he'd be at 44. But it's safe to assume he's doing some fudging or rolling ridiculously high every time.

As for damage rolls, assuming he's doing a great sword build, he's gonna do an average of 3.5 per dice, so an average of 7 plus 6 damage for 2handing gives you 13. Add in power attack for an additional +5, so 18 damage on average. Average CR 4 monster has 36ish HP, so he's going to be 2 rounding shit of an appropriate challenge for your party, this is about expected. It seems like the rest of your party needs to get good in terms of damage.

If you need suggestions for how to deal with paladins, the AP has some serious grapple monsters, use those.

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Whats this about Avowed Wolf and Horse patrons? Was there a new playtest thing I wasn't aware of?
Because if so, I need to see this. It will be perfect for my homebrew setting

>>51276140
There is an avowed 2, avowed harder playtest, it has an archetype that gives you a companion.

>>51276137
Tribal Scars for 46, and my guess is that he's just smiting everything and the DM hasn't caught on.

>>51276133
>He will get increasingly audibly annoyed, sighing and moaning. At some point he will angrily say
This is where I would tell him to shut the fuck up.
Full fucking triggered.

>>51276105
>>51276086
>>51276068

We roll for health. He claims he rolled 2 tens and an 8. I saw the 8. I don't remember the tens. The calculus still doesn't check out, but granted, he put everything he has that he could into health, preferred class for example.

He made a ton of mistakes on his sheet, most of them no to his benifit, but I suspect he just fudges the numbers in combat.

>>51276133
>>51276008

This sounds like a textbook problem player.
At this point there is nothing you can do in-story that will provide a long-term solution to this.
Encounter balance won't change his attitude, and giving him more plot hooks won't change the fact he has unrealistic exceptions of how his character functions in a group game.

Talk to him OOC to sort out these problems, and if you can't fix them, say he's not a good fit for the group and kick him out.

>>51276178
>I suspect he just fudges the numbers in combat.
I'm looking for the appropriate reaction pic.

>>51276133
>tian girl of 18 years with blue eyes and blonde hair (not a joke))
Fucking hilarious.
>>51276178
I showed how it's legitimate to have 46 HP at level 4, but I doubt he's doing that. It's all right to fudge the rules if the group is light hearted, but if he's not contributing anything but damage just kick him.

>>51276178
Make him hate you, make him irrelevant in combat, how did you handle the encounter with the witch quasit?

I hate finding good maps for online DMing.

I miss the days where we all sat around my kitchen table with hand drawn maps being good enough.

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>>51276212
>>51276178
This works.

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>>51276152
Oh, so its just Betrothed meming? Nevermind, I thought the Nature patrons had finally been released for playtest.
Now I am filled with disappointment. I guess I will have to wait to find a good option for my Pheasant Lords of the Shayeshen

You win this round, Iskanthri Imperium!

>>51276210
*unrealistic expectations

>>51276221
Do not do things like this. Punishing him in-game for this stuff won't encourage him to change, it will just make the resentment grow and encourage him to game the system more to get back at you.
Talk to him.

>>51276215
>>51276212
>>51276210

To give you an example, on his current level 4, he almost solod Malfeshnekor, a level 9 Higher Barghest.

He didn't, he eventually fell and as was dragged out by his party, but fuck he did 60something damage in 2 turns and going over his sheet, it just does not add up.

Even if it would, I worry.

How feasible is it to make more enemies neutral? Are there hard rules against neutral undead or abberations?

Runelords seems to be almost only evil enemies.

>>51276133
>>51276133
Yeah, that shit that you gave him isn't the sort of shit you should be handing out as a GM who doesn't know what he's doing. Which it sounds like you are, given the 19 STR with a 2 hander is your idea of minmaxing (git gud scrub I can have a fightman with 26 str in most encounters by that level). It also sounds like you're letting the party sneaky-breeky too easily if they've killed multiple encampments while Paladin is along.

Thing to do is tell him to stop with the weebshit that makes my weebshit (where muh characters are almost always inspired by animus) look less weeby, make him grab regular equipment (Altria wore armor, it should be good), and if he's gonna be a blonde Tian at least make him be part Ulfen.

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>be frustrated by trying to find something I want for a thing
>look at Avowed to clear my mind of frustration and look for a different concept
>mfw Self Pact is almost EXACTLY what I wanted for the first thing

Now my only question is how do I into Avowed. Shit looks basic as fuck, so I'm guessing it can't be too hard, but I need to be sure.

>>51276221
The witch quasit and the extended sneaking or pretending to be another follower of Nualia was the most fun the group had. He did nothing in those.

One of my guys talked shit about the sin pool and cast random magics at it, making the quasit attack him, 2 other group members then tied a rope around both and the tied one then calmy tried to relax in the bigger pool downstairs.

Even the Paladin shit weeb friend had a good time with this.

>>51276261
Smite adds his level to his damage, it adds it twice on the first attack made against evil outsiders. So if we do max damage 12 + power attack 6 + str 6 +2x lvl 8 we get 32 damage and if he did it again we get 32 + 28 = 60 on the dot. It is unlikely but still possible.

This is before we assume he critted or had any kind of buffing.

>>51276312
>>51276261
But this weab piece of shit is nevertheless more than likely cheating.

>>51276133
>F/SN Saber
>Not ZD Warder 1/Warlord 19
He needs to git gud.
But yeah, he's a problem player.
>>51276261
Level 4, 60 damage would mean 30 damage per round, but as >>51276312 shows, it's possible.
Also, not all undead are evil, just most are. There's no rules about all aberrations being evil.

>>51276274
So he doesn't even have the sword yet, it was a concession before we even started, when I was sketching out different side quest ideas for each specific character. I didn't want to be a buzz kill then. Again, he is just using a normal as two handed sword, the actual cancer is yet to come, I know.

The Paladin stayed back as they were sneaking and they used silence twice, also it was at night with doors and people being asleep behind those.

I challenged him on le epic blonde animu gal bullshit. He colors his hair every few weeks. I forgot what bs I accepted for the eyes.

>>51276261
>fuck he did 60something damage in 2 turns and going over his sheet, it just does not add up
2-12 (weapon dice) + 6 (str mod) + 6 (power attack) + 8 (smite damage at lvl 4) = possible 30, but he had to roll max damage or near twice.
Where is this fucker rolling dice?

>>51276312
wait how does power attack on level 4 do 6 damage additionally? I thought it was 2 damage every 2 levels. His strength bonus is 5 also. And what's 2xlevel8?

>>51276348
he is rolling dice in his stupid fucking dice box with japanese symbols that he can't read on them. He does this for every single die, not all at once, actually kill me.

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>>51276140
>>51276152

Why would you want a Wolf or Horse companion as an Avowed?

>>51276347
Honestly it seems the problem is:
>50% weeb self insert power fantasy player
>50% dm getting upset that someone is good at combat

>>51276334
Saber is a Discordant Crusader Zealot, you mook.

Excaliblast is a Zenith Strike turned into a line attack.

>>51276347
Anon, seriously.
Making enemies harder to smite, or checking his numbers for cheating, is just fixing the symptoms rather than the cause.

Forcing them to play by the rules or giving them harder challenges will not change the fact the player is a dick.

You talk that shit out with the player out of game like an adult and tell him to cut it out. That is the only solution that isn't a temporary bandaid.

>>51276405
pls no.
pls

>>51276380
How... exactly are you able to tell what he rolled, then?

>>51276369
Power attack does 2 damage at 1st level, but upgrades to 4 damage at BAB 4. You do 1.5x damage if you are 2handing. So 4x1.5 = 6

Smite adds your level in damage but it adds 2x that on your first strike against an evil outsider, evil dragon and undead. 2x4 = 8

His strength is 19, that gives him a +4 abi mod. 4 x 1.5 for 2h = 6

Max damage on a great sword = 12

12+8+6+6=32 for his first attack
12+4+6+6=28 for his second
28+32=60 It is possible, but he is more than likely cheating

>>51276369
>wait how does power attack on level 4 do 6 damage additionally?
>Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon
>When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.
So base power attack is +4, twohander bonus makes it +6.
>His strength bonus is 5 also
His Str bonus is 4, anon, and you deal 1.5x Str damage when using a 2hander, making it +6.
I do think you did not realize what you were getting yourself into, my man. This paladin, while the player is a complete twat, is doing basic damage dealer paladin shit. He didn't even archetype, apparently.
>>51276380
This needs to fuckin' stop immediately.

>>51276404
>50% dm getting upset that someone is good at combat

Remember that the 4 other players are complete newbies and interested in having character quirks and flaws, while he just plays a non character only built for combat. So the main group would have fun to tackle challenging fights with creativity and cunning, but it ends up being "I guess I'll just stay back and hope for the best." while the Paladin does all the work.

>>51275838
>>51275844
I do not know. It must have something to do with Caligula.

>>51275900
Look in the Manager rules from Ultimate Campaign.

>>51276432
I see. I forgot the 1.5x with two handed weapons on power attack. Thank you.

>>51276457

>roleplaying in a tabletop miniatures game

>>51276421
I'm not.

I don't check every single roll anyone does, I would have to walk around the table for that. I guess I can ask the neighbor of Paladinweeb to make sure he doesn't cheat.

This is of course not a problem with the other players.

>>51276405
You need at least one level dip of ZS Warder so you can get Armament Shield and use the Iron Tortoise level 9 counter so that you get to use Avalon while wielding a 2hander.
Also, Excaliblast is totally done with Wrath of Time, for the disintegration effect and most similar reach.

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>>51275349
POWER

UNLIMITED POWER

The ultimate treasure would be the power to change my fate - to reverse time itself!


But if I can't I'll have to settle for the power to conquer worlds.

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I guess its been a minute since I posted it, and I still haven't gotten anymore critique on it yet, so I'll post it again.

Gentlemen, a while ago I set out to remake the Armorist from Spheres of Power. Since then I have come up with a working alpha version of the new Armorist, and need YOU GUYS to help me refine it into something not shit, since I often don't trust myself to get anything right on the first try.

Here is the remake. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE provide critique and commentary on how to make it better. You can be as brutally honest as you wish, don't be afraid of hurting my feelings. I NEED CRITIQUE AND CRITICISM!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1NyV2ScbDMk7WHwLQt8z8MVfBQfBsiVa3pykH_tcTGMY/edit?usp=sharing

>>51276382
Because not every build must be optimized the fuck out off you unimaginative little shit.

What are some of the best classes to get into if I want to be an archer? Gestalt is available, along with basically anything 3pp.

I want to say Slayer, but is the Ranger even better? How about the Fighter (Archer) archetype?

>>51276531
Just reflavor a different pact?

I think there might be a nature pact eventually though, but we'll have to wait for Avowed 3 for that.

>>51275701
>>51275577
Fireflies seem very pretty for a Paladin to have!

>>51276382
Because sometimes you feel a little knotty

>>51276541
Hawkguard Warder, Solar Wind, pre-errata falcon bracers, standard archer feats.

>>51276541
>What are some of the best classes to get into if I want to be <martial>?

Some form of Path of War initiator.
Probably maining Solar Wind if you want to go straight for the DPS and nothing else.

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>>51276562
>>51275577

Don't forget the patron goddess of Sarkoris (before it was destroyed) was Pulura, the Goddess of Stars and the Aurora!

Firefly Paladin of Pulura coupled with the slick abilities of an Avowed will make the character positively radiant!

>>51276541
Inquisitor(conversion inquisition) 2 /Zen archer X is incredibly solid and easy to build.

>>51276578

>Probably maining Solar Wind if you want to go straight for the DPS and nothing else.

Yeah, see I'm not exactly that worried about being a DPS machine, I just want to go for something that makes my archer as cool as can be!

I'm super tempted to go Avowed (Celestial or Fey) for one side so the arrows look like ephemeral shafts of foxfire!

>>51276457
That could actually be a pretty cool campaign if it was done right. One guy over specc'd for combat (possibly even quite clever, but only at combat), the rest merely okay fight people who try to solve problems with cunning and sneaky breeky while the over speccd guy is off RPing his hard core training. But when Sneaky Breeky fails and they end up with a straight fight against someone, it becomes a holding action where they try to pin down an enemy they can't fight evenly with while the call goes out for the Overspeccd dude. Possibly have a rival among the main group who isn't quite as Overspeccd as Overspeccd Dude, but can actually fight on even terms (but usually gets his butt handed to him, and would die if he weren't speccd to be absurdly tough).

Then, whenever he's needed, the over speccd dude arrives on the field with healing items for his friends and absurd combat skills, to the tune of "I am a Real American".

"WHEN YOU HURT MY FRIENDS, THEN YOU HURT MY PRIDE! I GOTTA BE A MAN, I CANT LET IT SLIDE!"

>>51276594
>Avowed
>Slick
Still not seeing what this class is supposed to do well.

Don't mix Spike players with Timmies and Johnnies

>>51276681
?

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>>51276660

>Aether Rounds adding an extra +xd8 to your damage, and making the arrows look like shafts of etheral moonlight or burning bolts of divine radiance
>Least Clauses give you everything from Personal Gravity and Athletic Edge (+6 to Athletics and immunity to difficult terrain, basically you end up looking superhuman as you bound from place to place.)

It's COOL!

>>51276692
MTG terms.

>>51276692
MTG terminologies. I don't remember which is which, one wants cool cards, one wants complex play, and one wants to win.

>>51276660
Utility options, actually-decent blasting damage without needing to invest in Orc+Dragon+Havoc shit, eternal flight at 10th level, etc.

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Thinking of gestalting Summoner with something else to go into Dragon Disciple later on my non-Summoner side. Anybody got an idea for that?

I'm currently leaning towards either Paladin or Warlord.

>>51276733
I thought Avowed blasting damage was barely pushing on competent even if you go whole hog with it.

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>Look at SoM Playtest 2
>See Guardian sphere
>See Non-Practitioner rules
>Anyone can now Warder
>Even Barbarians
>mfw
Is anyone else feeling it?

>>51276259
For what it's worth, the plan at the moment is for Nature to be an esoteric pact. No patron; just your own occult connection to nature and your services to aid that concept nebulously.

>have 31 HP at level 1
>GM calls bullshit
>show him the math
>laugh

>>51276757

Nah, it's actually pretty good for the campaigns you'd be playing one in.

Should enemies have iterative attacks when the party is level 6 (with 7 people in it) and has shown themselves to be capable of taking on things CR9 and stronger?

>>51276798
What does that even mean?

>>51276660
Its a Warlock, but with utility and different types of Eldritch Blasts

>>51276805
>party is level 6 (with 7 people in it)
1) What the fuck are you doing?
2) AoEs sound like a better idea to me, higher overall damage if you want, without killing people with single-target iteratives or natural attacks.

>>51276796
>still get taken to 0 by a 'lucky' crit
>GM laughs

>>51276832
>Warlock
So gutter trash outside of a few niche builds/play styles?

>>51276815

It means you're going to feel useful in the vast majority of campaigns, both as a *competent* combatant and out-of-combat problem solver.

Silver Tongue alone makes you the Party Face.

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>>51276862

>Warlock
>Gutter Trash

You take that back! Launching eldritch fire out of my fingers is everything I wanted out of the Kineticist (which didn't deliver) and now we've got a class to do it!

>>51276850
1. I invited all of my friends and didn't stop to think about balance until it was too late.
2. That's probably true, just need to think of how a bunch of wharf thugs would have access to AoEs.

>>51276872
And its still shit at it.

>>51276876
Traps on the wharf.

>>51276876
Wands of Fireball. They shouldn't be illegal anyway, fucking bureaucrats stepping on my rights.

>>51276858
Even on a lucky crit it is hard to do 31 damage at level 1 for most creatures.

Unless you're fighting a x4 crit weapon enemy. Even then they need an average of 8 damage.

For a x3 then need an average of 10 which a greataxe user can manage if they roll around average and have 16 str.

>>51276862
It gets more invocations so it's probably closer to t3 now.

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>>51276288
Actually, out of curiosity: How good is Aether Channel+Unarmed, and is it actually worthwhile for a Self-Pact Avowed to actually go that route? Am I better off with Aether Blade and Spirited Swordsman?

>>51276886
>And its still shit at it.

Compared to what? Are you angry the class isn't the absolute best at killing things?

>>51276887
>>51276890
Wands and traps can do it.

Then we even have a plot hook to investigate why these wharf thugs have wands in the first place.

Brilliant, thanks lads.

>>51276891
He's saying the GM feels threatened by your high HP and just fudges the damage so he can have the last laugh.

>>51276921
>Then we even have a plot hook to investigate why these wharf thugs have wands in the first place.
And who trained them in UMD.

>>51276891
Orc Barbarian with a Falchion. 18 Str+4 Racial+4 Rage=26=+8
2d4+12+3=17-23
Crits for 34-46.
Rusty Dagger Shanktown is no joke, son.

>>51276640
Initiator/Avowed can be very potent because all of Avowed's damage boosts can be passive on your ranged weapon.

It's definitely not a bad idea.

Solar Wind is straightforward DPS but some more fun disciplines that work at range are Elemental Flux, Tempest Gale, and some of Silver Crane.
(Silver Crane is worth it alone for Silver Crane Spiral)

>>51276862
>missing the More Utility bit
Anon, how about you actually learn to read, observe, and understand how classes function in terms of tier potential before spouting shit like an idiot that has no idea whats going on?

>>51276954
>Falchion
>Shanktown
Are players Huge giants or something?

>>51275349
My asshole group can, and indeed has, tried to kill each other over hats. No magical properties, just hats. One of them tries to defend it by pointing out, in the setting, Goblin society was based on who had the finest hats. But there was certain effort to kill comrades over headware. Should have found a haberdashery.

>>51276954
>max strength orc barbarian in shanktown
I mean if the GM just wants to murder every play. The wizard now dies when the orc breathes on him.

What archetypes are there out there besides Lore Warden that give extra skill ranks, not by changing the number of ranks per level, but saying "you get this many extra ranks"?

>>51276942
>Two different people are responsible for these things
>Party end up in the middle of a huge plot
>All because they wanted to know why the thugs were flinging fireballs at them

>>51276970
Rusty Dagger Shanktown is not a literal town full of rusty daggers that shank you. It's a state of mind where "anyone can kill you with a lucky crit".

>>51276995
Talking of wizards that die when breathed on, I once played alongside a guy who played an elf wizard. 8 Con, favourite class bonus in racial I think. Then went on to min roll his HP (1 and 2)

The guy had 9HP at level 3. To my surprise he never died. Probably the DM taking it easy on him.

>>51276970
>>51276995
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/npc-s/npc-1/orc-berserker
CR 1 encounter. Not quite as good, but Power Attacks for 1d12+13=14-25, x3 crit hits for 42-75.

>>51276886
I bet you think everything that isn't "delete two enemies a turn Warder" is shit, huh?

>>51277101

A class is officially worthless if it is incapable of killing anything within it's CR in one shot.

>try to look for alternatives to Aegis for gestalt as a 2nd class track
>Aegis is really one of the best for supercharging martial characters

Sometimes, I get the funny image that theres a lot of Kamen Rider/Tokusatsu characters running around in a gestalt game

Any word on the RoTJR picks?

>>51277146
Nothing yet.

>>51276692
>>51276727
Timmy wants to experience something
Johnny wants to express something
Spike wants to prove something

Generally, Timmy wants to experience something awesome
Johnny wants to express his creativity
Spike wants to prove his expertise

>>51277049
The character dies after 55 damage because diehard. So an average crit: 6.5*3+13*3=58.5 barely kills him.

However this is outside of rusty dagger shank town. That will kill a wizard up to level up through level 5 (16 con) means he'll have 35hp.

Heck it'll go all the way up to level 6 where the average crit will go from full hp to perma death on an average crit.

>>51277141
Officially by who? And where does that put any class that works off of utility options or nonlethal effects, like "any Wizard that isn't a blaster" or "buff-focused Cleric"? Are those suddenly "officially worthless" according to Doesn't Exist Monthly?

>>51277146
GM said they're aiming for saturday.

>>51277142
You don't even need gestalt.
Aegis 3/Initiator X on one side with Student of the Astral Suit and Practiced Initiator.

On the other side of your gestalt put whatever.

>>51277178

BY Saturday! Not on Saturday!

We might hear whispers of who's in the running in the next couple days!

>>51277101
Funny, you'd think Warlords, with their ability to boost themselves via skill uses and class features, would see more use.
Why is that? Is it because you can't get pseudomagic natively, or cherrypick features from other classes?

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DM is being generous and is letting me get ANY first level spell that doesn't attack things or do damage- once per day. I'm a Rogue, if it helps- what spell should I pick?

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>tfw a Warshifter can spend now become a midcaster, Initiator, AND practitioner.

>>51277223
That feels like you'd end up spreading yourself way too thin with that, if I'm honest.

>>51277205
Majority on pfg wants to be the gruff no-nonsense guy in heavy armor, not the daring frontline leader.

I'll never understanding it myself.

>>51277175
>Are those suddenly "officially worthless" according to Doesn't Exist Monthly?

No, because you're obviously "destroying" the enemy using effects that make them a CdG away from death.

An Avowed can only kill the enemy .80x over, not 1.2x! It's useless!

>>51277208
Protection from X.

Has anyone played any of DHB's stuff. I want to ride a dragon and I heard he did something like that. Is it any good?

>>51277208
What speciality are you going for, what are you good at and what are you bad at?

I have to say darkness once a day honestly isn't a bad deal, but prestdigitation is pretty good too for versatilitiy.

>>51277244
>No person ever has teammates that can also deal damage
>No party has a blaster whose job it is to clear out minions and finish off multiple injured enemies
>The Avowed isn't designed to be able to fill multiple roles in a party and is shit because he can't overkill twice-over

>>51277238
Probably, but I'd still play it.

>>51277243
I've done both.
My last character was Paladin/Warlord multiclass, my current one is ZS Warder/maybe Thug Rogue? I don't know what class would really sync well, maybe barbarian?

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Tell me /pfg/, who is the huskiest person in your party?

>>51277244
>thinks Damage is the be all end all of class design
>doesn't understand that without the utility and ability of built-in mechanical narrative control for both combat and non-combat classes, such a class can only ever hope to be a High T4-Low T3 class.
You sir, are retarded and have no understanding as to how Pathfinder works

>>51277292
Just like Bards! Bards are shit! Jack of All Trades my ass, they can't even solo a CR+4 enemy!

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>>51277243

So what you're saying is I should go Warlord || Avowed, not Paladin || Avowed?

>>51276886
Out of interest, are you looking at the numbers of avowed on the whole, or just ranged blasters?

>>51277317
Anon, ironic shitposting is still shitposting

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>>51277308

I am.

He's large, broad-shouldered, total bearmode, and has thick chest hair with an even thicker beard.

>>51277310
>>51277292
I know you guys are bad at picking up subtle sarcasm, but I'm pretty sure that guy was poking fun at >>51277141 for being dumb.

Besides, all that means CR is broken; CR of appropriate level is supposed to use up 25% of the party's consumables, so any class capable of oneshotting equivalent CRs is clearly overpowered.

>>51277354
They're both pretty valid.

>>51277354
Yes!
Be bold, be courageous, get up there and go full hotblood on people!
>>51277308
Me.
7'1" and 300lbs make for a big guy.
4 U

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>>51277370
And I'm fine with that!

>>51277381
What if they can only oneshot an equivalent CR four times a day?

>>51277255
That would be the wyvern rider. For many people riding a wyvern is close enough to a true dragon that it satisfied them, but it is something you should know going it.

The wyvern rider is also a 4 level prepared charisma caster, similar to that of a paladin.

It retains most of the UC Cavalier's class features in some capacity, just less of them (half the number of oaths and banners), so that means you can use feats to get more.

On a whole it is probably the best UC Cavalier and is a bit stronger than the others (except maybe hound master?).

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>>51277387
For me?

>>51277381
>Barbarian
>Overpowered
You sir, are just as muchof a shitposter as the other guy.
You both are on the two extreme ends of the retard spectrum, and should probably stop playing Pathfinder

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>>51277413

FOR THEE

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ARE YOU A BAD ENOUGH DUDE TO USE TWO CROSSBOWS?

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>>51277387
>Be bold, be courageous, get up there and go full hotblood on people!

But anon, I want to go Ranged.

>>51277354
Self pact avowed | steelfist commando warlord.

>>51277445

Do I believe in my own justice?

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>>51277433
FUCK NO! I'M BAD ENOUGH TO USE ONE HUGE DOUBLE CROSSBOW!

>>51277445
I'm still sad that the pact with the weirdest fluff turned out to be one of the most bland in mechanics.

Self Pact should be renamed Muscle Pact/Body Pact and the fluff of Self Pact saved for something better.

>>51277478
Fuck off witch hunter, no one likes you

kys

Tell me about your BBEG, anon.

The one we're chasing wants to rid the world of magic and monsters by sacrificing an entire city in a ritual that may not even work.

>>51277442
Well... don't shoot until you see the white of their eyes!
Or don't see them at all!

>>51277401
Spells aren't consumables. I'm talking potions and single use equipment.
>>51277414
I misspoke. I should have said, "CR ratings by the book are too low if any class are capable of one-shotting them in an encounter".

>>51277461
You believe in your own fists!

>>51277491
I posted about the current antagonist once or twice before. I'll post it again.

Strangely long and slender musket with a stylized fiend's face at the end of the barrel. When in dim light the reflections on the fiend's mouth looks as if it is gnashing its teeth. They know it is named Yuhmis Alrraed meaning Whispering Thunder. The item has int 14, wisdom 13, and charisma 16, is Neutral Evil, empathy, blindsense, ability to move 10ft per round (which it uses to force itself into the gunslinger's hands while he sleeps), and can cast magic aura on itself at will. It is a +3 Lucky Distance Seeking Musket. Once per day you can make it fire a much more dangerous round. Acts if you are vital shotting, but does the damage to everything in a 10 foot area and triple to objects.

The spirit is a malignant desert spirit tricked into a clay urn. The urn was full of dates, figs, and peaches, and left to ferment in honey. The spirit greedily tasted the fruit, gorging itself on the mixture. However in its greed it did not notice the trap, becoming ensnared in the sticky honey. A plug was put upon the urn, sealing it inside. Try as it might it could not break the clay, the surface having been reinforced by the one who had left it there, a traveling monk, come from the south at the behest of the sultan to rid the desert of this viscous spirit. For the rest of its days the spirit was stuck upon the sultan's pedestal, a example and warning. Its cries were enjoyed as the sultan, and then his son, and his son's son, taunted him. Much later one of the sultan's ancestors, in his fear, sought turning the spirit into a weapon, and succeeded, and in the hands of the artisan the spirit took control, hunting the sultan's family. It rid itself of the sultan's line, but was not satisfied, it now seeks the dreadful monk, to cut away the family tree at its roots. It is attempting to use the gunslinger to further his search for them (the party killed the previous user)

>>51277544
>An item is the villain

Interesting. I may have to try this some time.

>>51277411
>Shouldn't the wyvern have something that marks it counting as a dragon? As written, the wyvern counts as an animal with weak will prog, d8 HD and 3/4 BAB, 2+int skill ranks and no draconic immunities-Is this intended?

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>>51277503

I'm really feeling it!

Though I'm not debating if a Warlord || Avowed would be more "Firefly Knight of Pulura" than Paladin || Avowed or even Slayer || Avowed!

Why do I have to be such a flip-flopping Francine?

>>51277544
The rifle is one half the villain. The other is the monk himself.

The monk is the key. It's been 600 years since the spirit was captured, and 150 since it became a rifle. I have planned for the monk himself to actual be alive, a strange ancient one arms mountain hermit, and his descendants to be alive, albeit scattered. A few of them, what would constitute the main family, are aware of the monk's presence. The monk only descends from the mountain in "times of great need", as he says, however these times range widely. Often he is not there in moments of what would be considered national peril, but there in smaller more personal conflicts. He soothes pain, exorcises spirits, heals the sick, and smites the wicked.

For reference the party is level 7. Waraqat Qadima, the monk's official title Meaning Aged Paper is a level 16 Unchained Monk who reached enlightenment. A wicked man, left to die by his enemies, lain upon a mountain stream bleeding. He drank from the water, cradling his body. For three days he lay there, drinking of the tepid water. On the third day he did not drink, and he was enlightened. The monk lives a simple an righteous life from that day onward.

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>>51277308

Create food and drink+ mage hand + fly or mount = hell on my figure

>>51277566
The Wyvern does have bits of draconic immunities. Such as sleep and paralysis immunity.

I could add draconic immunities as part of their level 7 advancement.

The wyvern also acts basically like an animal companion. I don't want to make it too strong as the wyvern rider is already really strong.

I think full draconic immunities at level 7 will be a good idea.

>>51276906
Given that blasting is supposed to be a combat thing? Kinda? I want to roast guys alive or freeze them fucking solid. Not tickle them with a stiff magical breeze.

>>51277761
That is what happens to anyone you manage to kill with fire or cold damage if you want to flavor it like that

>>51277799
The avowed can't kill shit competenly unless you make it an archer.

>>51277761

You're not tickling them though? You're launching a bolt of baleful helfire that scorches their chest, or an ethereal blade that carves a sizzling wound on their shoulder.

Just because the blast does not kill them right away does not mean the blast wasn't cool, and odds are you'll be getting plenty of kills throughout the campaign.

>>51277850

An Avowed at level 1 is hitting Touch AC with a 1d8+Cha (is it +Cha?) bolt that will more than likely kill a bandit in one hit.

>>51277873
Some players are just in love with their big numbers, anon, can't cure stupid.

which do you prefer:
slippery bastard of an enemy with a really high ac that folds like a piece of paper once you actually hit him

or

big beefcake of a guy with a shit AC that takes forever to kill

>>51277936
Neither
Man I wish Pathfinder had more combat mechanics to make it more nuanced

>>51277873
And if it doesn't kill them I wasted a turn. Why should I waste my time on avowed when there are (admittedly few) classes that can do the whole hellfire thingvwsy better and not just hope to kill the barbarians sloppy seconds.

>>51277896
>level 1
>being any reasonable indicator of balance.

>>51277954
if you had to pick, at least
personally i'd love for more mechanics, like if the guy that is supposed to be slippery could parry attacks etc

>>51277896
>is it +Cha?
Nope. You can take aether barrage shape at level 1 to fire two rays, and if you take it two more times (minimum level 4) you add CHA to damage.

>>51277959

Do you break out in a cold sweat when your character doesn't One-shot an enemy? Seriously, you're having a panic attack over not being able to effortlessly kill everything that moves in 6 seconds or less.

>>51277984
Parrying is Swash's territory, but you touched the real issue
Active defence
Parrying, dodging, shield blocking, etc.

And I want Armor as damage reduction. And different weapons have different armor penetration because currently all weapons are the same

>>51278003

So what are you saying, Aether Pulse is Dex or something?

So, after seeing how desperate /pfg/ is to play, >>51276842 got me wondering... Assuming a free trial session, game customized to your preferences(up to a point) and a decent GM willing to take and act upon feedback, how much would you be willing to pay for a GM?

And before you go starting a flamewar or getting your hopes up, I'm not actually seriously considering doing this. Well, not unless it turns out to be much more lucrative than I'm expecting

>>51277936
For a little variety, run a two phase battle:
Phase 1 slippery bastard that fights 'till he folds
Phase 2 he chugs some sort of potion and turns into big beefcake of a guy

>>51278033
No, but I do when I'm supposed to be a damage dealer and can't even two round something comfortably.

>>51278049
Well, depends how desperate you are for a game
To me, being a GM is just being one of the players in a game. I gladly GM when nobody else wants to, but I do it as "5th player" rather than as "nanny who handles everything".

>>51278033
How is he freaking out? Saying a class is bad at something is panic now?

>>51278048
I'm saying shapeless pulse doesn't add any stat to damage.

>>51278064
Hold up.
What build are you even looking at?
The Avowed has no problems two-rounding, and if you're having trouble with that then I think you're trying to use one of its builds for something it's not (eg thinking Aether Blast is a damage focus shape).

How well does the avowed do outside of combat? If it's anywhere on the level of alchemist or inquisitor, then it doesn't need fat damage. If it's really only good for blasting, and it can't at least match the fighter or barbarian, it's shit.

simple metric to go by.

>>51278049
If the game is at a major con or something, where it's limited time and way too many players then I would pay for a GM, but even then I'd be paying for a seat at the table. I don't think any GM who charges for money is someone I would want to play with.

>>51278079
He's saying that if he hasn't killed something he has wasted a turn.

This indicates if a class he does not accomplish an entirety of a task in six seconds, it's not worth his time as other classes can accomplish it better.

>>51278090
>Shapeless pulse

...Why though?
That's like basing the damage of any martial off their standard action attack.

The Avowed is certainly the flavor of the month here on /pfg/, but does it have enough legs to make it a mainstay even after the new hotness arrives?

>>51278096

To put it in perspective, Avowed has a level 1 Clause (basically a Talent) that gives it +6 to Diplomacy.

Later Clauses give it abilities that add Sickened to every Pulse, or Stunned, or a myriad of other things.

>>51277466

>tfw no minos gf to adventure with and cuddle and milk afterwards

>>51278104
No if a DAMAGE DEALER doesn't than they are worthless. Don't put words in my mouth.

>>51278043
Isn't there an Armor-as-DR alternative rule? I asked my players if they'd like to run that but the sorcerer said he'd prefer to not risk getting blown to bits (don't see how that's different from just regular AC).

Active Defense does need to become a thing though.

>>51278051
That could be good. He's supposed to be the leader of a gang of wharf thugs that are meddling with magics and potions, so it would fit.

>>51278140

B-but anon, the Minos only lactate after giving birth!

>>51278096
How does "see invisible things, at-will Identify on magic items, +6 to pretty much any important skill" sound to you as things possible within the first 2 levels?

>>51278173
Sounds like anon's being a whiny bitch then, because that seems fine

>>51278163

And?

>tfw no cute horn to boop or hooves to play with as you swaddle your child

>>51278147
The issue is, I think, is that you think the avowed is supposed to be a primary damage dealer. If you're looking for that look else where. It(at least I think) it's supposed to be more like a bard or something. You can moonlight damage in a pinch but for the most part you're doing "odd jobs" for the party.

>>51278126
What the avowed has going for it:
-Very strong customisability. You can have a party made of four avowed who all do very different things competently.
-Very interesting fluff, also with versatility
-A number of good utility tricks
-Decent combat capability without being as centralising as full initiators
-ALL DAY
-Waifu archetype
-Extremely good as a passive class: can gestalt well with just about anything

I definitely think it has lasting power.

>>51278180
I don't think it's anon being whiny. I think it's anon either misunderstanding or being misled about what the Avowed is supposed to DO.

>>51278188

The Avowed excels as a narrative powerhouse that can actually hold up in combat.

You are not going to be as tough as the gleaming knight, but you can still kill a motherfucker if they get in your way.

You're a Diplomancer or assassin that can actually hold up in combat, in other words.

>>51278147
They're second line damage dealers that can do lots of other stuff.

People just keep asking "does an avowed do good damage" and then people answer "yeah, it does ok damage" and then the original people say "BUT A BARBARIAN OR BOW USER DOES MORE DAMAGE AVOWED IS SHIT IT'S SHIIIIIIIT as a damage dealing class" but that's not what they asked to begin with.

>>51278149
Yeah but it is crap
Problems: The math of pathfinder is not made for armor as DR
And bypassing damage reduction is another crapsack
Consider adamantine. It is funny how we know it can cut pretty much anything, but it does not actually affect AC? Someone who has high AC because of lotta armor and tough skin do not get reduced AC from being struck by something that is known for its ability to ignore hardness.

And it is a lot of work to make DR math work. DR in Pathfinder exists to be bypassed. Nobody is meant to brute force through it, so it is not really calculated for.
Armor as DR systems work best in systems that employ smaller numbers to make the math easier to manage as designers.

>>51278214
>but that's not what they asked to begin with.
Maybe you misunderstood the question.

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>>51278126
>finally get around to looking at avowed and realize it does a lot of fun stuff, and is perfect for my autisms
>mfw thread devolved into arguing about whether or not it's shit based on ability to shit damage out of every orifice

I just want a cool class with decent damage, Cha focus, and enough simple utility to make me feel useful outside of combat, without worrying about spells/day.
Self-pact being able to pretend it's a monk is just gravy, though I wish it had an alternative set of features that was less focused on unarmed attacks.

>>51278188
Avowed can totally be a primary damage dealer if you build it as a martial, though.

Aether Barrage is in a kind of halfway point. It's reliable and respectable damage, maybe with variable debuffs.

>>51278225
Yeah, sometimes I wish I had chosen to DM a system with much smaller numbers, but my players like the various classes Pathfinder has to offer.

>>51278246
It really does sound like you want to be running something more like Symbaroum than Pathfinder.

>>51278244
I think the backlash is from people not tempering their expectations.

People here "blaster" and "warlock" and think they can just kill people super good like a regular caster instead of being a "gishy" like a Magus which is what the avowed needs to be a good damage dealer.

And also the fact that people have different opinions about what makes a good damage dealer to begin with.

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>>51277308
Something something bountu of nature

>>51278214
>People just keep asking "does an avowed do good damage" and then people answer "yeah, it does ok damage" and then the original people say "BUT A BARBARIAN OR BOW USER DOES MORE DAMAGE AVOWED IS SHIT IT'S SHIIIIIIIT as a damage dealing class" but that's not what they asked to begin with.

Wat. If someone asks "does x do good damage?", then the implication is OBVIOUSLY "is x good enough to be a primary damage dealer?" Why else would they care whether it does good damage? You very rarely hear people asking things like "does <primary caster> do good damage" or "does <skill monkey> do good damage" unless they're pretty clueless about the game.

>>51278263
Never heard of it, I'll check it out.

>>51278173
>see invisible things
It's 'see invisible things and in all darkness including magical' as one clause and 'darkness at level 1 and deeper darkness at level 10 for 24 hours' as another one. Though iirc of all common races only humans and half-elves don't have darkvision.

>>51278126
I think it'll stick around. It's got a really modular chasis to work with which is something that has made the vigilante so popular around here and the beguiler before that.

>>51278277
>Wat. If someone asks "does x do good damage?", then the implication is OBVIOUSLY "is x good enough to be a primary damage dealer?" Why else would they care whether it does good damage?

Well, the main complaints I was hearing from this and the previous thread was "Avowed is shit because it doesn't do as much damage as a bowman" and when told you can as an avowed add damage to bows, "Avowed is shit because it doesn't allow you to do more damage than bows without using bows".

It's like someone wanted their class perfectly fluffed and extra damaging as primary damage dealer and if it didn't delete two enemies like a full attacking barbarian at range it was utter trash with no redeeming value.

>>51278329
>>51278329
>Not mentioning the actually cool magic things like the ability to walk on walls, or cast Darkness, Arcane Lock and Speak to Animals at will pre level 6

>>51278329
>>51278361
I was just going off of the things that, if you're looking to be in the same realm as a damage dealer, things that are concrete and obvious buffs rather than things that need creativity to use, since clearly the jackass arguing here about "durr damage" isn't creative.

>>51278204
I imagine most campaigns where Avowed is an option are also going to have you "competing" with Full Initiators when it comes to damage dealing.
>-Very interesting fluff, also with versatility
Avowed looks like it has interesting mechanics but I fucking hate the fluff with a burning passion. Like I can barely stomach reading the rules because I get so bummed out about how much stuff I would need to change. Like I get re-fluffing is a thing but I feel bad changing literally everything about what a class is supposed to be to suit my purposes.
>>51278343
I remember that conversation. It went
>Anon wants to be a blaster guy that doesn't use a weapon
>Other anons say then be an Avowed with a Bow(A weapon)
>Anon says thats not what he's looking for
>Other anons say he doesn't need one then
>Anon points out that he thinks the Avowed does not do competent damage without the assistance of bow/weapon
>everyone jumps on his throat
>one useful person points out how an avowed can just BARELY do okay with regular old pulse barrages without a weapon.

>>51278361

Dude, I'm in love with Personal Gravity (or whatever it's called.)

Isn't there a Clause that gives +6 to Stealth?

HOLD UP HOLD UP

OKAY, question. Why are all the early Clauses so cool and useful, but the later ones really feel boring?

In the upcoming REVOLUTION game how discouraged from applying would people be if I heavily encouraged the use of the Broken Shackles martials and gave preference to characters who use them.

>>51278389
Because it's a stupid argument. "But I don't like that choice" is a perfectly valid reason to not pick something technically optimal, but you then waive your right to complain about being suboptimal.

>>51278389

Why don't you like being paired with an angel or elemental?

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>>51278389
>hate the fluff
>mfw looking at it I can barely find any hard fluff

What's even there to hate, besides maybe the pact mechanics? Not trying to make an ass of myself, but I just don't see there even being enough fluff there to be bothersome, though there could stand to be more esoteric pacts.

>>51278411
Because it's meant to be front loaded.

>>51278420
>how discouraged from applying would people be if I heavily encouraged the use of the Broken Shackles martials and gave preference to characters who use them.
Very.

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>>51278427
Because sometimes it is hard to shake the feeling it is just used as means to try to be more "special and important" than others

>>51278389
That was what I was talking about earlier.
>I want to be the damage dealer, the best there ever was. Can avowed be that for me?
>er, yeah, take avowed and use it to buff bow
>BUT I DON'T WANT TO BE A BOW USER
>then.. take less damage?
>NO I DON'T WANT TO DO LESS DAMAGE I WANT TO BE THE BEST FOREVER AVOWED IS SHIT, SHIIIIIIT

>>51278389
>are also going to have you "competing" with Full Initiators when it comes to damage dealing
Avowed have better utility even if initiators use only supernatural disciplines and utility maneuvers (that don't have high or any bonus damage).

>>51278425
Congratulations, you just summarized everything wrong with Pathfinder design philosophy. Different choices should be approximately equal(within reason, of course - a feat that boosts your social skills obviously won't be an optimal choice in a combat heavy campaign, and a combat feat is unlikely to be the optimal choice in intrigue focused campaign), and you should never be stuck picking either a mechanically bad choice or a thematically bad choice.

>>51278427
>>51278441
I dislike the idea of needing to be paired with something/another organism, and I just dislike the way pacts are handled in general(a one time deal thing). It just rubs me the wrong way, I prefer all my power and stuff to come from my own force of will/work/etc not a handout. There's probably some deep psychoanalysis shit in there somewhere, but that's neither here nor there.
>>51278425
I mean people complained about One harders style being shit all the time. Why can't he complain about the combat style he wants to use not being good.
>>51278493
>>I want to be the damage dealer, the best there ever was. Can avowed be that for me?
He didn't say that.
>Can avowed do damage
>Yes, use a bow.
>Aw, I don't want to use a bow.
>You can do okay damage without a bow
>I looked and you can't. Sucks for me
>OMG HOW DARE YOU INSULT MY WAIFU CLASS.
And it went downhill from there.

>>51278545
I can feel you there. I like "paired off" classes (animal companions, familiars, pacts, etc), but sometimes it's nice to go it alone. Self Pact really should have been more varied, since it's basically the closest thing to a "pact-less" avowed in there. Instead it's a "Not!Monkadin" and locks you into that. Not being alignment-locked is good, at least.

>>51278411
Incidentally, since the TK Handbook came out, you can walk on walls for two feats and a magic talent. Or two feats and a trait.

And the prerequisite feat lets you walk on anything regardless of if it could support your weight. Like water.

>>51278545

Did you know you can say you're an Avowed (Celestial) because the ragged remnants of an angel is inhabiting your body like some sort of incubator?

Or maybe a dragon wants to power up and signs a mutually beneficial agreement.

Or maybe your character fucking died, and a lightning Elemental shoved itself into your body and is using it like a meat puppet because humanoids are better at killing humanoids than a tiny Elemental.

>>51278535
It is impossible to make all options power options since all options are not made for people who play the game to optimize

/pfg/ 's typical take on pathfinder is not common place anyway

>>51278596
>Tiny Lightning Elemental

Hey there ElecAnon.

>>51278512
You can cast planeshift or have see invisible active is probably a poor consolation for someone who wants to be Megumin. I think the issue, again, is mismatched expectations.

Before I work on my WotR application, I want to know what everyone else is planning to make.

I'm going for a total hunk Kellid that may or may not become the High King of Sarkoris at campaign end.

>>51278493
Are you, uh, a real damage dealer?

>>51278596
>Did you know you can say you're an Avowed (Celestial) because the ragged remnants of an angel is inhabiting your body like some sort of incubator
Well, by RAW you can't since Celestial is a Patron pact and what you're describing is symbiotic.
>Or maybe a dragon wants to power up and signs a mutually beneficial agreement.
That's exactly the kind of thing I hate. Also I generally dislike intelligent dragons so that's a wash.
>Or maybe your character fucking died, and a lightning Elemental shoved itself into your body and is using it like a meat puppet because humanoids are better at killing humanoids than a tiny Elemental
Neat concept, but still not exactly my cup of tea.

>>51278604
>It is impossible to make all options power options since all options are not made for people who play the game to optimize
That's downright retarded. People who optimize are just about the only reason you'd ever deliberately make some options better or worse than others. Unless you work for Paizo, obviously.

>>51278241
New Dungeon Meshi W H E N ?

>>51278660
>Well, by RAW you can't since Celestial is a Patron pact and what you're describing is symbiotic.
Yes, because the difference actually means something OH WAIT NO IT DOESN'T, IT'S JUST FLUFF THAT YOU CAN DISCARD AND CHANGE AROUND FUNNY THAT ISN'T IT?

>>51278616

Hey! Sorry I never applied to Dragons with that concept, I just didn't feel the spark or excitement to play him beyond the concept.

I'm now recycling the concept as a bowman who was supposed to be dead after a cultist ritual, but is currently being meat-puppeted by Pulura.

Pulura+Starbow=ohmygosh

>>51278654
Have you ever killed a Boss, like a real CR+4 enemy?

>>51278662
That is not how game design works
For example the Cleaner archetype for Slayer
All the guide universally say it is bad, because they refuse to recognize that enabling character concepts even for very few people gives it value.

Any option that gave someone an idea of something they want to do has value, even if it is not mathematically the most optimal choice.

>>51278628
>wants to be Megumin
Aren't at-will abilities exactly the opposite?

>>51278692
Yeah, but I see no reasonable way of re-fluffing the Avowed in a way that I would enjoy playing one that isn't basically ignoring literally everything about the class fluff wise.

>>51278718
I forgot about the retarded one time explosion thing.

Let me put it like this, they wanted to a primary damage dealer that specialized in various ranged elemental attacks without the assistance of something like a Bow, Gun, Sword etc.

Black Mage.

>>51278717

I played a Slayer (Cleaner) before!

He was a dirty cop that fixed crime scenes for the mob before backup arrived!

>>51278717
I'm getting the feeling that you're deliberately misunderstanding me, but I'm going to reply anyway.

Taking an option required to enable a particular character option SHOULD NOT MAKE YOU USELESS OR EVEN SIGNIFICANTLY WEAKER THAN YOU WOULD BE OTHERWISE. DOING SO DELIBERATELY IS FUCKING TERRIBLE DESIGN.

>>51278724

It's not ignoring ANY of the fluff, anon.

At the core, an Avowed is a Human granted power through a connection to a powerful being. That's it.

That connection could be anything from a contract to a symbiotic fusion to a nymph that kissed you and called you her champion.

>>51278777
>through a connection to a powerful being
Yes and I'm saying this is the part that I dislike.

I don't WANT a connection to a powerful being.

>>51278792
Then call it a bloodline like a sorcerer? Or "I stole a spark of power from a demon and now he can't get it back, ha ha"?

>>51278792
You can also get it from just being so gosh darn patriotic.

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>>51278724
>>51278792
But you're ignoring token fluff. The fluff that is there is just there as a so it isn't just a pile of mechanics, and which lets you go as far as to go "my power is a representation of x" without being a connection to ANYTHING, regardless of pact type. This isn't like Paizo, where they base an entire concept around the fluff and tie you down and force-feed it to you. (Paladins can only be LG. Only a CG Desna-worshipper can use Cha for Starknives. Only Sarenrae Snackbar worshippers can take a feat for nonlethal scimitar attacks that heal them.)

>>51278767
yeah but what do they get for it?

>>51278792

So you want your powers to come from igniting your Dragon-rich blood or calling on the innate connection you have with he divine?

What if your Childhood friend was so real to you, it actually became a weapon and tool? Bam, instant Avowed (Shadows)

>>51278740
>primary damage dealer
Someone needs to do the math. Optimized paizo martials deal around 50% to 75% hp of monster of same cr damage, while summoners and druids are way past 150%. IIRC PoW design goal was 50% with standard action strike and 75% with full attack with a boost. How much damage does avowed deal with non-weapon shapes?

>>51278792
I feel you actually, it's the reason I'm not keen on divine casters. Inquisitor is mechanically great, but the whole diety thing feels like I'm beholden to an NPC for characterization.

>inb4 "just go with ideals"
That always struck me as trying to cheese the domain/inquisition choices.

>>51278828
It is their rigid ties to fluff that makes 1pp atleast avoid clashing within it
Crunch without fluff to tie it down has no direction and just leads to everyone coming up with their own horrible shit

>>51278858
This.

If you follow a divine path, you better have some characterization that backs it up. One of the main reasons I hated the 'build philosophy' of 3.5. "Take two levels in cleric and then switch to this and this and this."

Motherfucker, you jilting your deity for a couple of spell like abilities is not going to end well for you. Even the most forgiving god in RL religions does not appreciate that shit.

>>51278858
Same
>>51278828
It just feels super fucking wierd.

It's like re-fluffing your Cleric as a guy with a bunch of Cybernetic Modifications and nanits that heal people.

Like you can do it, but it just feels wrong to me. You know?
>>51278847
>So you want your powers to come from igniting your Dragon-rich blood or calling on the innate connection you have with he divine?
And this is a much smaller issue, but none of the pacts really interest me that much in their creature connection either. That's much more related to my own fantasy hangups than the avowed in and of itself however.

>>51278853
Paulo materials deal 2-300% of equal CR monsters health per round.

>>51278853
No, I'm pretty sure even a shitty 2-handed fighter is killing at CR threats if they can manage to get a full attack off.

It's how easy you can get it off that's the issue.

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>>51278933
>Paulo materials
hue

>>51278920
But it's not at all like that. The pacts are explicitly open to being modified. You're not going in and saying "my aether blast is an M16 and my power comes from a nuclear reactor strapped to my back" or "my alchemist is actually a paladin and my bombs are greatsword swings". You're going in and going "alright, my holy power is innate instead of something granted by a celestial, something the book explicitly tells me is A-okay to do".

This isn't rocket science. You're insisting that this is extreme levels of refluffing when it's not..

>>51278917
And that's a problem with the fluff of Cleric; there either should or shouldn't be something that stops you from doing that, not a half-assed "oh your god probably doesn't like you". Either have a Code Of Honor like a paladin, or be like an Avowed where you can skip town with your power and they can't do anything about it.

>>51278996
>You're going in and going "alright, my holy power is innate instead of something granted by a celestial, something the book explicitly tells me is A-okay to do".
Where does it say that. Because if there's one thing the book seems to Empahsises it's the fact that all of your abilities are granted via your connection to SOMETHING are is not innate.

>>51278954
It all went to shit when people started taking pounce shit for granted

>>51279027
Connection To Something =/= Granted Power From A Being. Your connection can be as faint as "oh yeah grandpappy fucked a Trumpet Archon" or "celestial mithral nanomachines son".

>>51279014
Call me a Fedora tipper, but am I the only one that think "You get power from the gods/another being" shouldn't be the basis for ANY class because it just sets up a scenario where people are just gonna yank it away.

The Avowed skirts by this by having no fall mechanic but I feel like it's a cop out and kinda defeats the point of making a deal/having a connection if you can just ignore it for the rest of your career.

>>51279027
Admittedly I'm going more off of what Forrest herself has straight up said about her product, rather than looking for the exact passage about refluffing. If you want the EXACT QUOTE you'll have to hope someone drags Forrest in here for a full explanation.

>>51279070
I wouldn't call that fedora tipping. That's a reaction to GMs using it as a cheap plot hook or punishment.

>>51279056
Eh, It still doesn't just feel quite right with me. I guess the Avowed just isn't the class for me. Which is a shame because the mechanics seem cool bar the charisma focus.

>>51279014
But fluffwise, clerics DO pretty much have a code of conduct like paladins, although not necessarily one as strict. They just don't have mechanics to back it up apart from half-assed "your alignment must be within one step of your god".

>>51279070
I like that in Pathfinder you play bunch of people who all rely on something for their powers.
This helps give a good foundation for lvl 1 and good ladder for leveling up.

Take Wizard for example. He can do very little himself. He is master of arcana, but still just a person using powers from beyond.

Martials and Psionics I guess are the ones who have "innate power", but martials do not bother me and psionics can be a touchy issue to lot of people.

>>51279083
But at the same time I feel like not exploring those things is also a waste.

I'd much rather axe the divine classes and have "you get power from divinity" be from a system like Deific obedience. You get a God, you get some tenants, a ritual, do it and get some benefits that grow as you level up.

Then I'd take a page out of Dungeon Crawl and let you switch gods at a price/time thing and maybe some light RP consequences.

>>51279130
That's probably a good idea actually, it'd let any class take the stuff too

>>51279120
Psychics, Monks, and Alchemists.
> psionics can be a touchy issue to lot of people
You mean faggots.

>>51279082
>>51279091
Try to wait until the weekend before deciding, Forrest herself has mentioned writing an Article/Thesis Paper about the concept of refluffing a class (mostly as it relates to the Avowed, but also for other stuff).

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>>51279141
Exactly! You can even have an archetype or class template to better reflect that this someone concerned with the Divine. I might work on homebrewing something when I have some more downtime.

>>51279120
>He is master of arcana, but still just a person using powers from beyond.
Actual pathfinder magic is so fucking ill defined we don't know that for sure.

>>51279170
>herself
wot

>>51279208

Forrest is a girl with a penis and everything.

>>51279208
Forrest's a lady, anon.

>>51279142
Monks are tied to their ideology
Alchemists is kinda like wizard. Take away his potions and bombs and he is powerless.

And do not get sassy about people who dislike psionics. I personally don't like any other psionic than Wilder because it feels like it has the strongest and most fleshed out fluff crunch connection

>>51279202
Arcane magic is pure mystery yeah.
But what I mean is that you take the book away from the wizard and he is not going to do much.

If you can strip someone of their powers, it humanizes them to me.

>>51279208
Forrest is a cute grill, anon.

A CUTE. GRILL.

QUICK
I need a name for an official magical organisation in my world

The Magi _____

>>51279235
>>51279249
But.. but girls aren't involved with tabletop. My mom said so when she found me playing ADND all the way back in high school!

>>51279253
The N.O.W. (National Organization of Wizards)

>>51279245
>Monks are tied to their ideology
No they are tied to their training.
>Alchemists is kinda like wizard. Take away his potions and bombs and he is powerless.
Take away a martials weapons and they're powerless.

Take a sorcerer into an AMF and he's powerless too.

>>51279245
>And do not get sassy about people who dislike psionics. I personally don't like any other psionic than Wilder because it feels like it has the strongest and most fleshed out fluff crunch connection
But why shouldn't I get sassy about your shit taste, anon?

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Hey, what up all? The SoM AMA is started over on reddit, so go check it out!

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/5os1v0/spheres_of_might_kickstarter_announcement_and_qa/

>>51279307
Because I fucked you are mother.

>>51279260

Lots of Trans people are involved in Tabletop, though!

>>51279279
it needs to be more subtle

There are 5 Cornerstone Organisations, 2 of which are The Covenant (i.e. the authoritarian religious people) and the mage organisation

there is massive tension between the wizards and the Covenant + the High King and the only reason why they decided that they should be allowed to stay is in case of a kingdom-wide magical disaster or there's some evil wizard warlock

>>51279337
Oh, okay. That's neat.

>>51279285
Their training and ideology is the same

>>51279369
Not really. The martial artist that's good at learning moves and Kung-Fu but thinks the morality and ideology behind it is all bullshit is pretty common.

>>51279368

>Trannies
>Neat

>>51279420
That is why they made the Martial Artist archetype for that
But you cannot do that character with base Monk

>>51279438
Yes you can.

You don't need a monastery or an ideology. You just need to be Lawful.

>>51279436
inb4 no bully

>>51279456
Alignment is ideology...

>>51279456
> an ideology
Let me correct myself, you don't need a particular one. The fact that your Supernatural monk abilities still function even if you stop being Lawful is proof of that.

>>51279436
Hey man, we're all a bunch of fucking losers anyways, who are we to judge?

>>51279469
Alignment is extremely vague, and monk being restricted to Lawful is retarded. Martial Artist not needing to be Lawful does not excuse base monk. Doubly so because your abilities do not cease to function for NOT being lawful, which makes it feel like a completely pointless "restriction".

>>51279436
Go back to /pol/.

>>51279469
No it's not. Being Lawful can mean a variety of different things and outlooks. Same for Neutral and Chaotic.

>>51279490

The irony here is I'm not ragging on transsexuals, I'm ragging on the assumption being transsexual is somehow special or unique.

>>51279436
>Crackers
>Neat

>>51279480
Their inner improvement merely stopped.
It did not go away

fucking called it

>>51279498
>not thinking Trannies are "neat" suddenly makes a person a racist, fascist sociopath.