Warmachine/Hordes general /wmhg/

First for Skorne errata:

http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-1-17-2017

>>51266011
>They're as bad as GW at this point.

- GW deliberately kills off models and elevates others so you BUY MOAR. Privateer Press actually does not do this. Buffing underused models and nerfing overused models isn't this. GW literally makes certain models illegal in edition changes.

I'm still using PP models I used 10 years ago on the table today. I can't say the same for my GW armies.

Second for come join our Discord channel at https://discord.gg/KmXzbwD

It's actually not terrible, which is.... annoyingly uncommon among online Warmahordes communities.

>>51267509
Second this. Played 40k for 12 years. Armies didn't get updated on each edition change, so you'd end up with rules that simply did not apply to the game. New books were usually overpowered, but simultaneously required you to get all new stuff to compete.

And then, simultaneously, they did incomprehensibly stupid things like change the rules so the Eldar Wave Serpent was the best transport in the game, and then discontinue the model a week later.

PP is nowhere close. They make some dumb mistakes (see: everything digital they've ever done), but tend to have the game staggering in the right direction.

Given the depth of the non-Skorne errata, I wish they'd release them at least twice as fast as they're planning, though.

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>>51267517
>i know all the playtesters!
>they hate the game!
>i wont name names except the most well known one
>warmahordes is dead please play guildball with me

>>51267509
I can't use my Imperial Guard from 8 years ago anymore, because back then, I was allowed to swap the unit leader's melee weapon with a Lasgun.

In the codex after that and the codex now, I can't, because I don't have legal unit leaders for my squads.

>>51267678
No offense, anon, but that's not the best example I'd say. Removing one option that unit leaders have isn't the kind of change that is designed to fuck you over, even if that is a result, but a balance change. If GW actually bothered to balance the game regularly that sort of chamge would be one of those 'that's unfortunate, but I'd have no problem letting you use them as proxies since it means we get a more balanced game'

Again, not saying GW hasn't fucked people over model wise, with the removing of characters or changing how many of a unit can fit into a normal CAD, just that yours wasn't the best example of GW being shitty.

>>51267926
Not him, but here was mine:

Got into Tyranids because you could run, at the time, a Hive Tyrant and ~6 Carnifexes. It was essentially a Hordes list. Carnis in Elite and Heavy slots.

Come new edition, not only am I not allowed to use half my models, the other half is no longer WYSIWYG.

>>51267957
Yeah, that's a stinker. Losong WYSIWYG sucks, but at least is something reasonable opponents understand. Not being able to field half the models you used to be able to is the same reason PP doesn't want to cut down the FA:U stuff.

>>51267992
I think Themeforces would have been the perfect spot to apply FA:2-3 to jacks

http://conflictchamber.com/#b91b_-0key4x4x4v4v4v4v4v4v5U5U6v6vcv6J6o6Fcv

Skorne Army - 75 / 75 points
Theme: Winds of Death

(Xerxis 2) Xerxis, Fury of Halaak [+29]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
- 6x Basilisk Drake [48]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Venator Flayer Cannon Crew [5]
Venator Reivers (min) [9]
- Venator Reiver Officer & Standard [4]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]


or


http://conflictchamber.com/#b91b_-0key4x4x4v4v4v4v4v4v5U5U6v6vcv6J6o6Fgggg

Skorne Army - 74 / 75 points
Theme: Winds of Death

!!! Your army contains pre-release entries.

(Xerxis 2) Xerxis, Fury of Halaak [+29]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
- 6x Basilisk Drake [48]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Venator Flayer Cannon Crew [0]
Venator Reivers (min) [9]
- Venator Reiver Officer & Standard [4]
Venator Dakar [4]
Venator Dakar [4]

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Circle Wold Theme confirmed in Command Book.

Primecast 40 1h04m

>>51268291

Might end up making Bradigus and the Baldurs cool again.

Looking forward to Loki as well.

Do we happen to know what Skorne is getting in their new book at all?

>>51268614
A shooty caster.

That's all I'm aware of so far.

I seen somewhere on the forums that CoC is getting new model(s) with their command book, but I thought we weren't getting a book at all. Was that a forum kid thinking wishfully, or are we legitimately getting new models that are (hopefully) better than the PCon?

>>51267957
Are you a retard? Carnifexs can be run in broods of 3. You can still take 6

>>51268614
I think xekaar is getting a character cyclops.

>>51268768
Circle, Protectorate, Legion, and Cygnar look to be "official release of junior2, a new caster, and a warnoun bonded to junior2". Trolls and Khador don't follow this pattern.

So who knows.

>>51268700

Sounds cool to me.

Hope they get a new Character Beast.

Of all the beast options Skorne has, it would be cool if they got a giant character Razor Worm heavy. That or an Aradus.

>>51268819
Maybe it's zaadesh then, idk. I remember hearing of a character cyclops and I thought it was xekaar.

>>51267452

These guys haven't exactly been impressing the internets with their optimism, and they're congealing around the impression that skorne is now so good that they can't fully grasp how good they are.

>nerfs when
>i kid, i kid

>>51268819
>>51268863

Oops, should be "junior2, new caster, warnoun bonded to battlebox caster".

Yeah, a beast bonded to Xekaar would follow the pattern.

>>51268761
Can you now? I should mention the last time I played was 2007, so there's probably been 3-4 edition changes inbetween.

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>mfw when all of my post in PP forums require moderator approvals

>>51269505

Stop being an asshole.

>>51269585
Never

>>51269759
>>51269585
>warmahordes

>>51269759

Fair enough.

>>51267437

I look forward to the now dawning era of newbies upon hearing that Skorne players complain about their faction 24/7 thinking that we're all a bunch of goddamned lunatics.

>>51269505
>All my posts require mod approval
>Lulz, they mad.

Bitch, they don't care. You're just a minor annoyance to them.

>>51270103
It's time for a fix for the Avatar.

>>51270104
well, time to up my game then.

so what is Skorne's gimmick now?

http://conflictchamber.com/#b31b787p7peQ9v7Qgd8q8t7Y7-87

Khador Army - 74 / 75 points

(Irusk 1) Kommandant Irusk [+27]
- Destroyer [14]
- Destroyer [14]
- Ruin [17]
- Sylys Wyshnalyrr, The Seeker [4]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
- Man-o-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
Man-O-War Kovnik [5]
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4]
Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max) [13]
Winter Guard Mortar Crew [5]
Battle Mechaniks (max) [5]


How stupid is this?

>>51270274
hard localized blitz would be my guess given some of the changes

>>51270274
Fuck bitches, get money.

>>51270133

If they just let the Avatar be part of your Battlegroup, it would be fine IMO.

It's just the fact that it doesn't take up Warjack points AND doesn;t benefit from Power Up/Battlegroup Spells that really kills it. Otherwise he would still be a good jack.

They should just let the Avatar be part of your battlegroup, use up warjack points but he still doesn't have a cortex and generates his own Focus.

The only other fix I would make might be to let him always just have 3 focus each turn. Avatar really isn't all that horrible compared to some of the new character jacks, I don't see how he needs the RNG focus as a balancing factor. He should just be allowed to have full focus each turn.

>>51270327
I'd like to see a more characterful fix than that. Giving the caster focus would be interesting, although costing it would be a pain.

>>51270274

Doesn't feel like their playstyle changed all that much, it just got better.

Basically, they are a mixed force that is a great counter puncher. So they are just way better at surviving shooting now and put out more ranged dmg.

Outside of that, Skorne infantry now has game again so maybe we will actually see Zaal2 infantry spams.

I don't think their "game" has changed, it's just more viable now. Makeda1 seems to be getting a lot of attention so look forward to threat extension on beasts.

The avatar is a jack that can't be in the battlegroup, in a faction with fantastic battlegroup spells and abilities.

>>51270379

I think the Avatar itself is already pretty characterful.

Avatar is basically just hard to kill and puts out a lot of hurt. I don't know that he really needs all that much outside of being able to benefit from WJPs and Battlegroup Spells.

His gimmick is pretty much being a focus free jack. That's not all that useful anymore but it could still be good with a lot of low focus casters.

>>51270452

Of course, if they gave him native Pathfinder I would not complain. Just saying.

Is Skorne saved?

>>51270452
A templar is hard to kill, and hits just as hard as the avatar does if its target has a shield, or as hard as a reckoner if it lacks a shield. Also gets to use warjack points and battlegroup abilities.

To be worth its massive drawbacks, the avatar needs more than just being an arm 21 jack with good pow and menoth's gaze.

>>51270552
Yes, but we'll see if it's safe.

>>51270605
See:
>>51270327

>>51270390
>Outside of that, Skorne infantry now has game again so maybe we will actually see Zaal2 infantry spams.

Did we ever not see Zaal2 infantry spams? It looked like it was one of the last lists still being played by them that wasn't some new take on Ferrox. And even then they were putting Ferrox in it.

>>51267957
You could take Carnifexes in broods of 3.

>>51270327
>The only other fix I would make might be to let him always just have 3 focus each turn
I am glad you don't work for PP

Should Cryx just get their old rules back? It wouldn't even be op by this point.

>>51271579
Should just dump Cryx and elevate Convergence.

>>51267926
There was not an ounce of balance involved in the Sergeant change, because you can buy them Bolters for 1 Point (a weapon that's superior to a Lasgun).

They literally just did it because they're lazy and didn't care.

>>51271795
But CoC is boring.

Say what you like but the tourney results on Discount Games are much more varied than they used to be. People moaning and groaning about Trolls and Cryx need to sit down and get good, since both factions are still placing regularly.

That being said, some tweaks should go out. Beasts need a point reduction.

>>51272467
Cryx should be named Satycryx, no one even uses undead models anymore.

Bane Thralls need stealth back so they can survive against gunlines.
Bane Knights need weapon master back so they can hit hard enough against high arm.
Mechanithralls need their old recursion back so they can do their job as speed bumps.
Bile Thralls need their old purge back so they can do their job as crowd control.
Bloodgorgers need gang back so they can hit and cause damage reliably.
Skarlock needs to be able to cast upkeeps to have any value.
WSC needs to lose attached and Maelovus needs another ability (like Dark Industries) to replace spell slave so Skarlock has a niche.
Tartarus needs his old movement and defence back and curse needs to give extra movement again to justify his points cost.
Bane Riders need 2'' reach and old curse or a price drop.
Revenant Cannon Crew needs ghost shot and higher pow.
Darragh needs old death ride for Cryx tryx.

>>51272626
Can you come over to me house asap? My fries taste a little bland and I was wondering if you could salt them for me.

>>51272664
Just offering constructive criticism. Feel free to counter-argue like an adult.

>>51270815
>Ferrox
But WMHG told me Ferox were a meme.

>>51272626
That's literally just Mk2 bullshit Cryx. Not gonna happen

>>51272626
>Bane Thralls need stealth back so they can survive against gunlines.
They need something. The UA going to 4p and getting Tactics:Tough should be enough.
>Bane Knights need weapon master back so they can hit hard enough against high arm.
Fuck off. They hit harder than before. Just not on Vengeance moves.
>Mechanithralls need their old recursion back so they can do their job as speed bumps.
Fuck no. Let's not bring the most broken thing in the game back. Let them forfeit Movement or Action by choice. That sounds more fair.
>Bile Thralls need their old purge back so they can do their job as crowd control.
And once more: fuck no. They're fine and actually still fuck 2na sideways (as they should).
>Bloodgorgers need gang back so they can hit and cause damage reliably.
Yup.
>Skarlock needs to be able to cast upkeeps to have any value.
Skarlock needs a rework. Not his Mk2 shenannigans but a rework.
>WSC needs to lose attached and Maelovus needs another ability (like Dark Industries) to replace spell slave so Skarlock has a niche.
WSC are fine, moving on.
>Tartarus needs his old movement and defence back and curse needs to give extra movement again to justify his points cost.
He needs the first half and a points discount. Everything above that is once more bullshit.
>Bane Riders need 2'' reach and old curse or a price drop.
Yup.
>Revenant Cannon Crew needs ghost shot and higher pow.
It certainly needs something.
>Darragh needs old death ride for Cryx tryx.
[picture of smug anime girl]

You're not getting your Mk2 bullshit back and that is a good thing. I know Cryx needs help, but it's idiots like you demanding all the OP things ever that will prevent Cryx from getting anything ever.

>>51272901
Cryx fags got so used to OP that they literally can't envision changes that cause them to be any other way. They were spoiled for years.

>>51272921
Which is a shame for the actually reasonable Cryx players who get boned (heh) alongside the idiots.

>>51272761
All that would really do is make all of the units do what they're supposed to do, instead of making all of them shit so that Satyxis get to be the new hotness.

Mk III needs more bounty to it's units so that there's a better variety of cool shit on the table, instead of making a few broken units in each faction that get copy-pasted ad nauseum.

>>51268760
Supposedly we're going to get a combo Command + Theme Book, since we aren't getting a normal command book. This might have been decided after the decision to stop putting rules in Books, so they can stuff some more fluff in the planned CoC Theme book.

>>51272921
Cryx was never as op as Khador is now. Giving Cryx their old tools back would merely put them on equal footing with other mk3 factions.

>>51273235
Are you for real or is this the new skorneposting?

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Cryx player

I don't think Cryx needs to return to MK 2 power levels, but they feel kinda boring right now. Unless you take one of our few casters that are still good, our stuff sucks. I'd like it if some of our infantry besides Satyxis were worth taking, if our jacks didn't become crippled by the shooting of basic infantry, and if some of our casters were worth taking again.

You'll also notice that our best casters are either a) Turd Polishers, or b) Capable of playing into gunlines and winning. The stable of options we have feels limited, and it appears that, as far as synergy goes, we've become the new Skorne.

I don't mind if PP makes our infantry shit, but I do mind when they make our casters similarly shitty (and thus unable to even turd polish).

>>51273096
Any idea on when this is gonna be, or is it "some time after March"

>>51272901
How fucking stupid do you have to be to think that Bane Knights hit harder without weapon master?

>>51273351
The kind of stupid that can do basic math.

>>51273351
>>51273384
Actually, I revert that. They hit slightly less hard now. The P+S-increase was only 1 and not 2. P+S14 unbuffed is still plenty.

>>51273322
No idea what the official window is. However, I'd put money on 'After all the command books' at the earliest and 'After Lock & Load and sometime after a few other theme books' as being the most likely.

Big stompy monsters are coming to shoot up your shit!

http://conflictchamber.com/#bp1b6IcubE6acvbEgr6v6v5U6x

Skorne Army - 74 / 75 points

(Rasheth 1) Dominar Rasheth [+28]
- Mammoth [38]
Siege Animantarax [17]
Praetorian Karax (max) [11]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Siege Animantarax [17]
Armory (Steamroller) [0]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Void Spirit [4]

>>51273417
Y'know, if we're getting even a single new unit I'll be happy to wait.

On another note, in the latest Primecast they mentioned running a Beast team or a Bots team in GRIND. I was hoping I'd be able to run both so I could call my team Bones n' Bolts Athletics, but I guess now I'm gonna have to pick one or the other

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>>51268760
>CoC
>New models

>>51273428
You accidentally clicked the Willbreaker instead of another Void Spirit, Anon. Then you accidentally clicked the Animantarax instead of Titans.

>>51273661
The Willbreaker is amazing, especially with Spell Slingers. The Animatarax is fucking legit with SPD8 and POW19 shots.

>>51273707
He might be worth it now that Rasheth can cast double breath on infantry before the infantry actually gets to move up the board. Like that's actually so big that you can deny so much movement. A single breath could be run around fairly easily, but this is just hella annoying. Almost makes me wanna bring a Sentinel and drop ANOTHER pool of acid.

>>51273235
lmao, Khador hasn't seen any action since Mad Dog nerf.

>>51273235
>Cryx was never as op as Khador is now.
And people manage to say that with a straight face.

>>51272547
Yes and? Should Cygnar be called Lancenar now, Khador WGRI+Rocketdor, and the Protectorate of Idrians?
Most factions only bring one or two units, which are considered the best.

>>51268819
>"official release of junior2, a new caster, and a warnoun bonded to junior2"

Protectorate's jack from the Command book was bonded to Malekus, not Tristan (junior2).

>>51273969
People need to learn that tournament play is generally a really bad indicator for what's balanced or viable. Of course you'll only ever see a handful of things in tourney play. No matter how well you balance your game, given a certain degree of complexity, there will always be the one option, or the one interaction that is just a bit better than the rest. And since pro play is all about winning, people will play whatever's best.

I'm not saying there isn't some busted shit, like 14 Dogs had to go, and Skorne really did need the errata, but there's a surprising amount of absolutely viable options that people are quick to disregard as shit just because they don't see tournament play.

There's a lot of room between "fielded in every competitive list" and "unplayable trash", you know.

>>51273993
But are Banes unplayable trash? Aren't they just another unit like Stormblade Infantry that packs a punch but has problems with delivery?
Of course there's other undead units, some of which are garbage and others (like Blackbanes Raiders) which have a strange niche

I really wanna play Hexeris1 now. Parasite is a VERY good spell. A Cyclops Raider can now roll straight 3d6 against a Circle heavy, or your infantry all get +3 to damage rolls against a heavy. And now that his single target nuke is only 2 fury, it's not that bad as a way of clearing expensive infantry anymore. 3 Dawnguard Sentinels for free is 5.7 points off the table. Then a Raider and Shaman can pick off another one each, and suddenly the unit has lost a lot of power. Then against cheaper infantry he has the option of Obliteration. I just wish they'd done something sensible with his feat. It's still awful and takes ages to resolve. You're not even forced into taking Despoiler anymore since he gained Great Power.

>tfw you could take away the krielston, give every troll model +2ARM and +1STR and trolls would still be worse than Khador and Ret

>>51274048

They did something with his feat; try it out now that it's no longer "...and half the time, nothing comes of it. Next model.", should be much less frustrating.

I didn't think I'd see the day that Skorne was united as one, beating down doors to get Makeda1 and Hexeris1 on the table. We actually *tried* to do that with Hexeris1 back in mk2, as a community thing.

Does Khador have a medium based warcaster?

>>51274040
I don't really have a problem delivering the Banes. To be fair, there's not alot of Cygnar players here, but my casters generally either have occultation or some other defensive unit buff or I just run something high SPD to gum up the works until they get there.

Max mechthralls with a skarlock that just runs and runs works fine while Darragh Death Rides the Banes up the field.

>>51274440
The butcher. If you mean for man o wars, either Irusk or Kozlov are probably pretty good.

>>51274440
The Butchers, and HorseVlad

>>51274526
Isnt horse vlad large based?

>>51272747

"Makeda-Ferox-done" was a bullshit meme, and probably really bad advice at that.

Ferox were a good cavalry unit.

>>51274440
Karchev is small based? That's hard to imagine

>>51274695
Pretty sure Karchev is large base.

>>51274570
Ferox are good. I think they're slightly overrated, but they're good.

I'm more excited about Cetrati now since they got cheaper *and* lost some support bloat (with built-in Tough instead of having to drag a Willbreaker along), but Ferox are quite good.

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Bought some Kayazy Eliminators and didn't like how static they look, so I put some greenstuff into it.

The ones on the left are borrowed from a friend, to have a comparison.

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>>51275256
Why is my camera so stupid?

>>51275256
>>51275274
You can't fool me Australian

>>51273969
Well it used to be that Satyxis Raiders, Bane Knights and Mechanithralls were competing for the title of Best Cryx Unit, and Bane Thralls, Bile Thralls and Satyxis Blood Witches were popular as well. Cryx has so few infantry options now (Raiders and Witches, the boring ones) that it's made me concentrate on Blood Bowl instead.

>>51272944
>Which is a shame for the actually reasonable Cryx players who get boned (heh) alongside the idiots.
Here's raising a glass to reasonable Cryx players, and that terrible pun.

>>51273235
>Cryx was never as op as Khador is now.
Are you joking, or just very new to this game? Cryx has been so OP at some points in the past that most players wouldn't even consider going to a tourney without one of their lists being a dedicated "Cryx Drop".

Literally, every single player would dedicate one of their lists to countering a single faction, because if you didn't do that you'd have no hope whatsoever of winning against any of the four Cryx players that would show up at local ten person tournament. And even with the perfect counter-list, perfect scenario, and everything going your way, more than half the time Gaspy2 would still manage to shove soulhunters or banes down your throat from two tables away and just end it.

Now, if you'd said "Cryx was never as OP as Khador was at the end of Mk1", maybe you'd be on to something...

>>51275649
How was khador mki?

>>51275711
Vlad1 fisted you in the butt in your deployment zone top of 1.

>>51275711

Practically auto win

>>51273993
Second that. Heck, tournament players just flat out miss things sometimes. The community dismissed Doomy1 completely at the beginning of Mk2... it took almost three years before anybody noticed that Runes of War might be worth giving a try.

>>51274040
>>51274485
Actually seems like the fluffy Cryx "Horde of Undead" type army might be gaining traction now, in some formats at least. A first wave of mcthralls and birdies backed up by banes can be very tough to deal with... but it has a lot of trouble with the clock. Playing 50+ infantry models on deathclock takes a lot of practice (although killing them all does, too).

>>51275798
>it took almost three years before anybody noticed that Runes of War might be worth giving a try.
Closer to two years from the time the troll book dropped, but yeah. Any forum ranking of troll casters circa 2012 would generally have had Doomy1 dead last.

>>51275711
Pretty rough to deal with. The most notorious was with Vlad's "Flying Drakhun" top of T1 assassination, but that was really just the tip of the iceberg.

Granted, in Mk1 there was an awful lot of broken shit happening across almost every faction, so... fair and balanced?

>>51275649
"Cryx drop" is just a synonym for anti-infantry list, every list used infantry in mk2.

Faction internal balance is the worst it's ever been.

Man PP has fucking lost the thread.

>>51275953
>has fucking lost the thread.
?

>>51275977
My guess is that he is german. To loose your thread/den Faden verlieren is a proverb that means "does not have a clue anymore". Dropped the ball is not necessarily the perfect fit, but probably what he wanted to express

Seven days until Helios.

I am so ready for this guy to be a part of my lists.

>>51276050
>loose
well tighten it up, dum dum

>>51275977

See >>51276050


Not German, just a term I read a long time ago and use occasionally. Although, I like the German phrase better--it rolls off the tongue and sounds serious (As does all German)

DEN FADEN VERLIEREN!

Nothing in german rolls of the tongue, it's literally the worst language ever.

>>51272971
Satyxis were also great in mkii, I used blood witches in almost every list.

I think a lot of the problems with Cryx now is that some core rules changes, like no friendly charges and slams cuppled with the changes to burrow, recursion and spell cycling have hurt quite a bit. It leaves the faction without a supportive niche and our offensive one (hitting hard) is less effective because of the prevelance of gunlines and little protection.

Regarding>>51272626 I think a lot of these changes are reasonable, except the Bane Knight one. They hit just as hard on the charge. I would also add give Gaspy s6 back and the WSC their old stat lines. My wish list for Cryx would be: 10 modles brought back on Lich2's feat, 3 point solo that gave free charges, def 14 Slayers.

>>51275332
Funny, I also have basically quit for Blood Bowl/9th age

What's interesting, is even with the factions that have a bit of power, players are complaining. They usually say "It just doesn't feel fun anymore"

This is so common, I think there is something to it. What do you think it is?

>>51276273
For me, it's that the majority of lists seem to be composed of spamming one thing and there is very little list variance.

Sure, shit was broken in mk2 also, but lists weren't nearly as narrow.

>>51276165
>Nothing in german rolls of the tongue, it's literally the worst language ever.
German has a certain... harshness, for sure. It's probably not the best language for composing love songs. But "worst language ever"? Seems a bit of a stretch.

I mean, how are we even judging best and worst languages? Depending on your rubric, American English could easily be the worst language ever (popularity notwithstanding)... it's the bastard child of like half a dozen ancient tongues, the sad accident of not sharing a common alphabet with the original (german made) printing presses, and a period of empire that saw the whole thing get tossed back in the blender with ANOTHER half a dozen languages... There's just no consistency whatsoever. The spelling alone is brutal on even native speakers of the language.

>>51276187
>slams cuppled with the changes
point

>>51276273
>>51276470
It's more likely that the portion of people who are dissatisfied with the game are going to the Internet to complain while the people who are having lots of fun are playing games. Nobody except for the Skorne players around me were complaining much, and now even they are quite happy. Even the Cryx players, despite their theme.

>>51276165
Dutch

>>51276576
This.
The same people complain over and over about the same things on the forums/internet.

>>51275711
Sorscha's feat was basically a time walk feat with a middle finger and mortars, no LOS needed. I haven't seen destroyers on the table since then.

>>51270274
speed+2 for the whole battle group aka busted af. Can't wait for nerf.

What's the reasoning behind Kreoss not needing LOS for his feat vs Sorscha's heavily limited feat area?

Is it because models without focus can't shake being frozen, where as knockdown can be lifted by giving up an action?

>>51276777
>speed+2 for the whole battle group
He had that forever.

>>51276777
Yeah, they were going to give him Escort but nerfed it to FM:+2 SPD.

>>51276777
Old Witch isn't burning down the meta, so I think we'll be fine.

>>51276952
Old Witch is also paying 10 points for a mediocre Arc Node

>>51276793
There's also a lot more immunity to knockdown compared to stationary

>>51276628
Well, the same problems aren't fixed.

I haven't complained about Skorne at all once they dropped the errata.

It's amazing how people stop complaining when things get fixed

>>51277008
Scrapjack is great. Problem is that Old witch doesn't really have stuff that she wants to arc.

>>51276777
They just swapped that for Mobility. All it changes is he has a little more Fury to play with. A little more fury... on a Fury 5 warlock. Doesn't seem like that's going to be what breaks the game.

>>51276952
>>51277008
>>51277546
Old Witch is probably OK, there's just other things in Khador that are more obvious and are getting a lot of attention. Like pButcher's feat with those goddamn rockets, and up until recently, Karchev jack spam.

Experience suggests it takes a long damn time for the community to get a handle on all the casters available to a faction and judge them accurately. The just-read-the-cards, theorymachine forum posts and rankings are generally complete BS. Even very skilled and experienced players have mostly terrible track records for judging models at release. If somebody gives you an opinion on a caster, and they haven't had, say, 20 ACTUAL games (with or against) that caster, you can probably disregard.

>>51277751
Hell... you want an example from just this past year? Go through the privateer Khador forums from just after Mk3 released... like June. Forum Truth was that Karchev with Mad Dogs was a gimmicky, joke list. A lot of loud voices were shouting that Mad Dogs were irredeemable trash. The reason was simple... they hadn't played it yet.

>>51277751
Old witch is fine, but she is definitely behind majority of khador casters now.

Premeasuring means that you can't sucker people into killing themselves with the feat, the current steamroller zones are spread out/big enough that her feat can't prevent people from coming in the first place.

Also two of her competitions got stronger. Sorscha can now boost freezing grip and Zerkova can effectively cloudwall now. She basically lose her niche as the supreme mage lord of the faction which makes her garbage stats even more glaring.

Funny thing is that Old Witch would be seeing play now if she kept her old field marshal or augury which means that she's one of the few things in the game that enables seeing through forests.

I honestly think that might be the only push needed for her to see some consideration. It's not like augury ignored concealment either, just enabled LOS.

>>51277863
Old Witch would be fine if her Feat was able to knock jacks on their asses.

>>51277863
Whay we need is eWitch of khador: poshel nahui suka.

Her scrap jack is now all grown up and sbe uses it. As a flying mount.

>>51277951
I want her as a battle engine. The model will be regular old witch in the middle and the rest of the base is just crammed to the high heavens with nothing but crows. Just fucking crows everywhere.

File: 1444938890022.jpg (81KB, 567x461px) Image search: [Google]

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>>51277979
That would be awesome!

Xerxis1 is the best caster on Skorne. Sorry guys.

>Makeda1
Okay so just incase you cunts weren't aware, the Titan Sentry's main weakness is fury 3. It doesn't really have the damage output to kill a heavy reliably because it doesn't have that extra point to play with. Makeda1 now solves this problem with Jackhammer. This means you can comfortably bring 2 Titan Sentries with Makeda1 and have a really powerful frontline (ARM23 vs melee), that's also easily capable of killing heavies in one pseudo activation.

Molik Karn also just got some seriously stupid non-linear assassination bullshit. You can just run 14" through forests to get their caster in range, then Makeda can Jackhammer the shit out of her MAT7 PS18+3d6 friend.

My god Makeda1 looks EXTREMELY strong.

So I bought an animantarax

>>51280362
Well, makeda still has to be 6 inches from molik karn with LOS to him. 8 if you bring craft talisman.

>>51277979
>Old witch battle engine
>Riding a black cloud of crows
>Weapons are still claws, but also has a 360º reach attack and a ranged weapon
>which are just murder of crows templates

>>51280479
Yeah but just having the option at all is insane. Or you can do stupid shit like charge Karn at a warjack, hit it twice to blow out an arm or cortex, sidestep over to another jack, hit it twice (PS18+3d6) to blow out an arm or cortex, Fate Walker over to another heavy with your last fury, then Makeda can make him punch it. Like damn son, the possibilities with Jackhammer are insane. I'm fully convinced that Jackhammer is the reason Fate Walker didn't get reverted to Mk2.

>>51280467
out of curiosity, do you think it would fit on a 50x100mm base?

>>51280868
Not without overhang. The model fits all corners of the 120mm base.

>>51279817
You say that like it's something new, Xerxis has been one of the most consistent and best casters since he came out. Most of the time, it's entirely because he's merely not shit, too.

>>51281161
But man, Lurch is so fucking good. Your opponent has to play around 13" threat range Bronzebacks threatening to pound two heavies into mush.

Is Skorne fixed yet?

>>51281632
Too early to tell.

>>51281632
Seems to be. Still some problems, but no more than most factions.

>>51281309
And yet lurch is just a super gimped version of mk2 energizer.

>>51281632
Some things are still meh, but we finally have field-able small based infantry, and we finally have some strong looking casters. Rasheth, Makeda1, and Xerxis1 are looking like the faction's top offerings. Naaresh pretty much got no changes so is now defaulted to our worst caster, but our previous pieces of steaming hot shit, Morghoul2 and Hexeris1, got some sweet buffs and seem mid-tier at worst.

File: no concept of justice.jpg (16KB, 118x169px) Image search: [Google]

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>reptile hound nerfs

>>51281885
The point is more that Skorne now has access to threat range extension. On a caster that was already one of our best, it's just pushed him to crazy new heights. Today I played vs Circle, and my everything out-threat his everything.

>>51281920
Blame Pastrami for running 26 of them with Zaadesh2 in testing.

>>51281885
nemo1 still has locomotion, but he has to spend focus instead of fury for it

>>51281954
Why zaal2? Only thing he does for them is mage sight.

>>51282308
Oh, wait. Zaadesh2, not zaal2. Still not used to zaadesh.

That's fucking crazy.

File: LoE2[1].jpg (36KB, 475x353px) Image search: [Google]

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I'm moving across the country soon
how do I pack/transport this motherfucker?

>>51280949
It's a circle. It doesn't have any corners.

>>51284252
Magnitize the base to something

File: large-compliments-classicroast.jpg (49KB, 800x800px) Image search: [Google]

49KB, 800x800px

>>51284252
Get one of these and a shit ton of peanuts. It's one of several things we use for packaging painted minis when we ship used armies. Egg cartons are pretty good for infantry depending on size.

>>51284612
didn't even think of that, thanks anon. I have all my other figures packed up already with eggshell foam. he's just really large and fragile.

>>51284252
In a trash can where it belongs

can someone post some protectorate of menoth pictures? they look cool

>>51284896
do you have google?

>>51284612
Who's we? Got a website?

>>51284932
does bing work too?

>>51285095
no sorry, only google works.

>>51285178
:(

man these threads have really died now that people can't whine about Skorne. Can't we get some Trollblood or Legion players in here to bitch about things and how utterly unplayable garbage their factions are, really liven up the joint?

>>51285646
Did the Cryx Kids kill themselves yet?

>>51267437
>>>51285646
>Did the Cryx Kids kill themselves yet?
Theme forces were the final thing to get me to jump off the ledge

>>51286284
That said, the Cryx theme force is probably a lot better than it seems at first glance. But we will never find out because there are no more Cryx players.

Would a colossal with continuous fire on it's melee still light shit on fire with a sweep attack?

>>51286630
No.

>>51285646
I am a Legion player and I mostly like where my faction is power wise. If anything, I want to see my bench get deeper. Our good stuff is good and our bad stuff is bad. We probably have more bad than good in the infantry department. We have our fair share of stinkers in the warbeast department.

What I want is probably what most factions want. Our bad stuff to be worth putting on the table.

>>51286590
I just recently played against it and lost as Cygnar. The attrition game with revenants is hard and I think very underestimated. Anyone with RFP, especially ranged RFP, wouldn't have too rough a time though I think

>>51286875
Yeah, Ossyan would rip it a new one. Which caster did they use? It's probably really strong with Denny1, but that's just Denny1 being bonkers.

>>51286684
Why not? The attack is made using the weapon.

>>51287040
But it isn't.

>>51287049
"A colossal chooses a non-crippled melee weapon with a location of L or R to make a sweep power atack. It makes on melee attack WITHTHE WEAPON against each model in the weapon's field of fire"

But it is.

>>51287189
Whaaaaat? That must have changed in the edition change.

>>51287208
I'm planning on running the new Ret colossus which has continuous fire so this is important to me.

>>51287189
>When a model makes a power attack, do not apply the special rules on its weapons unless they specifically reference power attacks.

>>51287245
Is continuous fire considered a special rule of the weapon or does special rules refer to abilities that are specifically written out on the card like Beat Back or Chain Attack: Grab and Smash

>>51285646
>Can't we get some Trollblood
Uh, I'll try
Trolls are shit, buffs when
Playing Trolls is literally akin to killing yourself

>>51285646
Really? Legion is complaining about unplayable garbage?

Trolle are worse Skorne.
Prove me wrong.
you can't

>>51287433
no one's trying to, or even saying that. Skorne just got a massive errata to bring them in line with the other factions; that power shift means that Trolls and Cryx, which y'all keep saying are the new bottom factions, would logically shift down the totem pole.
I tend to think that in a decent meta each faction brings something unique to the table and doesn't one-up anything else too badly anyways, but I don't play competitively so I don't really have a solid say in the matter. Trolls, objectively speaking, are weaker than p much everything else. The same is not true for Cryx.

whats the 'specialty' of the armies?

like, 40K has the tau who blap blap or orks who stab stab.

>>51287485
Cygnar zaps shit
Menoth burns shit
Retribution has force fields and force manipulation
Cryx debuffs and corrodes
Convergence beeps and boops

>>51287511
Oh yeah, and Khador just punches shit really hard

Im a new khador player.

My best friend is playing Cygnar and hates cygnar jacks so darned much hes selling them for pennies on craigslist, and just running minutemen (plural) and a hunter on the grounds that every cygnar heavy jack has lame posing and goofy design, but not even goofy enough to be cool. He was crestfallen that he can't find the DJ Thunder Thunderhead model.

The problem is, I kinda legitimately fear a few minutemen, a hunter, and his favored caster "Siege" Brisbane.

Is lightjack spam viable for cygnar? for that matter what is ya'lls experience with the minuteman. That thing is a tiny jack so manly it must be part khador on its mom's side.

>>51287511
>force fields sound cool
>elves
fuckin' dropped.

I have three armies, but have never actually played a game. I just like painting them.
How do I into playing?

>>51287517
Why did he even start Cygnar if he fucking hates it so much?

Kara Sloan can run a decent light spams with guns. I have not faced the minuitman this edition so I can only assume it's not great.

>>51287534
Fuck off, roundear scum.

>>51287432
Every faction has unplayable garbage in them. Some just have a lot more than others.

>>51287485
Cygnar: zap zap
Protectorate: pray pray (alternatively, burn burn)
Cryx: plundering dragon-zombie-skeleton-pirate
Khador: punch punch in the cold cold, subtheme of Nazi-esque dark magic with crazy artifacts and eastern european old-country lore
Retribution: weaboo elf scum
Convergence: beep boop I replaced my weak flesh with robot bits
Mercs: pay me and I'll kill for you
Trolls: scottish blueskins who fight for their freedom I think? I'm not sure.
Circle: hippies but they're not, they just really don't like Menoth also furry trash
Skorne: Ghengis Khan, but only in the desert and with giant monsters instead of mongols
Legion: samurai dragon mutants
Minions: same as mercs, only with less technology

>>51287593
You're just mad because Ret has one of the best battle engines in the game.

>>51287593
>scottish trolls

is this what racism feels like?

I like it. GIB FREEEEEEEEDOM

>>51287613
they fight with claymores and wear tartan. who else would they be?

>>51287485
Cygnar is the control and gimmicks faction.
Khador is the straight-forward faction (so basically opposite-Cygnar).
Protectorate is the "no you may not" faction. Also really good robots.
Cryx is the debuff faction.
Retribution is the combined arms faction, also maybe the best balanced one.
Mercs are a mix of everything.
Convergence is the Synergy faction, meaning that with correct positioning you can multiply the army's output by a lot.

Circle is the movement and LoS shenannigans faction.
Trolls are the "no you can't fucking kill me" faction.
Skorne are imho somewhere between Khador and Cryx. They received a huge change this week and we shall see how they turn out.
Legion is the "yes I may" faction, but is currently suffering somewhat of an identity crisis after being the warbeast faction in Mk2.
Minions are a mix of everything.

These are just broad generalizations. All factions have a broad set of playstyles.

>>51287613
The skorne look pretty japanese too. Crocs in minions are literally swamp dwellers from Florida. Racism is great.

>>51287517
Cygnar light spam is probably stronger than most realize. Of course there is Sloan, but as you experienced already, Siege with a bunch of boostable shots is somewhat legit. Nemo1/Caine1 with all the Chargers is also worth mentioning.

The Minuteman scales massively with player skill. It's really easy to waste but can be fucking devastating if used correctly. It will however not see the end of a battle. Ever.

>>51287631
I dig it. the privateerpress site seems clunky to actually find just units on, I just see a lot of parts. am I missing something?

>>51287639
"Yes I may"? I don't quite get it, are they thieves / strong as fuck? or lore based?

>>51287658
What you want are the galleries

http://privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery
http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery

>>51287658
their site is a little stupid, for full units/factions:
warmachine
privateerpress.com/warmachine/gallery

hordes
privateerpress.com/hordes/gallery

>>51287658
>"Yes I may"?
As in they have a lot of models that fly, so they ignore terrain for movement. They have a lot of models that see without eyes, so lots of visual effects like concealment, or stealth are ignored.

Pathfinder, which is a rule to ignore the movement penalties of terrain is also a common rule.

>>51285646
Easy....

Trolls were a synergy faction, when you could buff the hell out of a single model. Now everything is either self or beast only.

Trolls were tough warrior models, they used to survive the hit and hit back hard. Now they don't survive (less hitboxes on our heavy infantry), and don't hit back hard (Warders don't have Weapon Master, Kriel Warriors don't do shit now, Burrowers are a joke, Rage is beast only, Flaming Fists are self).

Our we have only 4 heavy non-character warbeasts. Mauler is great. Bomber is great. Earthborn is meh. Blitzer is bad. No 2" reach.
The only heavy with 2" is Mulg and he was hit with nerfhammer so much it's not even funny.
Our lights are bad. Axer is situationally good, mostly because of his animus. Pyre is only useful when you need to put your Fire Eaters on fire or give your caster +2 melee dmg, for "just" 9 points. Bouncer is neat with his animus and Shield Guard. Impaler is too expensive now. Slag is a joke. Winter and Swamp still bad. Storm is not seeing a table either. Oh, and Night Troll....

Our bad MkII warlocks are still bad in MkIII. I'm looking at Jarl and Borka2. Gunnbjorn became somethat playable. Madrak1, Grissel1 and Grim1, all solid choices in MkII got nerfed so much you pretty much don't see them anymore.

Do I even have to start about Scouts and Skinner?

>>51286987
Goreshade3. To my eternal shame, I was playing Lieutenant Alistair "Did you know there's a Caine1" Caine.

>>51287726
>Do I even have to start about Scouts and Skinner?
But the scout has weapon master now!

>>51287782
Skinner has, as always. Scouts don't.

>>51287815
>>51287782
>>51287726
They wouldn't be scottish if they weren't getting shafted one way or another. it's 'lore-based' gameplay.

>>51287815
I was joking about it. Remember when PP proudly announced that the MK3 Scout has weapon master? Forums caught that right away.

File: Impaler plastic.gif (56KB, 325x353px) Image search: [Google]

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If Trollbloods are so terrible, are they gonna see a big errata change like Skorne did?

>>51287658
>"Yes I may"? I don't quite get it, are they thieves / strong as fuck? or lore based?
They ignore a bunch of rules. There is no simple way to do thing in Legion. Every tool you have is extremely versatile and extremely strong. However they are also very squishy and expensive. It's the laser scalpel of weapons.

>>51287733
Caine1 is amazing, but I can see how he struggles against Goreshade3. If anything G3 has ever gets near Caine he's fucked.

>>51287886
Spend 7 years as the worst major faction in the game and maybe they'll get fixed.

>>51287886
They're not terrible. They're just a bit onedimensional right now. And that is something that can be fixed with less than 89 changes.

>>51287849
Then announced Skinner has it. He had it all the time. Scouts are a different unit.

>>51287976
Do you blame me for being unable to remember which name went to which?

>>51287921
>They're just a bit onedimensional right now.
And what's this one dimension? They aren't particularly tough now. They don't hit hard. They don't have that much buffs. They have a little bit of everything yet nothing.

>>51288003
They hit plenty hard and are plenty tough. Have you ever seen a good Trollblood player at work?

>>51275711
The hate is deserved but mk1 tournaments being very different beasts also made Khador OP as fuck.

Finals in major tourneys were two caster games.

Basically Vlad2 with a time walk caster (sorscha or old witch) meant you were auto fucked barring Cryx Skarre1/Gaspy2.

MK1 got degenerate as fuck with legion/cygnar top of turn 1 instadeath bullshit as well.

NEW SKORNE CASTER TIER LIST

>TOP TIER
Makeda1
Xerxis1
Xerxis2
Rasheth

>HIGH TIER
Makeda2
Makeda3

>MID TIER
Hexeris1
Hexeris2
Morghoul1
Morghoul2
Xekaar
Zaal1
Zaal2

>LOW TIER
Mordikaar

>THEY DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO HIM IN THE ERRATA TIER
Naaresh

>>51288547
I'd put Zaal2 in high tier. Not because of any change to him, but because of exalted becoming better and the krea meaning that immortals are going to laugh off infantry fire on the way to sticking their swords up your asshole.


So inspired by something I saw on the forum, a list that I think is pretty solid denial. Stealth, anti magic, anti shooting, high def with star crossed, mortality, shadow play, it looks fun. Molik and morghoul are the assassination engines, Legends and the archidon can also do work, and the various paingivers are going to cut right through infantry.

Skorne Army - 75 / 75 points

(Morghoul 2) Lord Assassin Morghoul [+29]
- Aradus Sentinel [16]
- Archidon [10]
- Molik Karn [19]
- Basilisk Krea [7]
Paingiver Bloodrunners [9]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Legends of Halaak [8]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Wrong Eye [17]
- Snapjaw
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]

>>51288547
It's way too early for that.

>>51288592
Molik only has Side Step with Makeda so I'm not seeing your assassination here. If you want to shove a Karn up people's assholes, honestly just play Makeda1. Jackhammer is ridiculous on something that hits harder than a Bronzeback on average.

>>51288621
Molik is still damn good everywhere, he doesn't need jackhammer or sidestep as long as you play him as part of the army instead of the whole army. There's really nothing else in Skorne that does exactly what he does, charge a long way, kill something, then back out of the now cleared charge lane.

He fits the list's theme real well, which will probably be hit-and-run attacks mixed with a final crushing blow.

>>51288592
I might also steal that list but I'm still uncomfortable with not having a Gladiator, regardless of Shadow Play.

>>51288800
I still rate Makeda1 much higher for hit and run play. Charge, hit, boost damage on your second initial. Against warmachine factions you've just taken a heavy out of the game and can side step over to another one, or pull back and reposition.

>>51288003
lmao, Trolls are such a pain in the ass to kill what are you talking about.

>>51288963
Lmao

>>51284974
Hobby Titan

hobbytitan.com

Most of our business is through eBay, but with the new year we're working on getting the website running better and worth using for people.

>>51286590
It's basically just a Denny1 theme force that requires you own like $200 of otherwise fucking useless Revenants.

It's ok but not groundshaking. It's also boring, which I think is the biggest problem. The entire faction is just fucking boring.

>>51289722
>Spamming Banez was fun

>>51272742
where do you think you are

>>51289722
It's weird. To me Cryx seems more interesting than in Mk2. But I only saw it on the other side of the table (and that a fair bit). Now I'm even thinking of getting into Cryx.

I'm also somewhat certain that there will be more Cryx buffs within the next 6 months. But I know all too well that waiting sucks.

I can't find the stats for the hammerfall siege crawler anywhere. Why is its card not in the deck?

What are your favorite scenarios? Have you created custom scenarios to play in with different objectives and maybe uneven forces?

>>51289858
I had that exact same thought process at the start of Mk3, don't do it, it's not worth. Cryx looks interesting when you're only looking at Cryx, but the faction in it's current state fundamentally doesn't interact well with the rest of the game.

>>51289738
False equivalence, some things needed to be nerfed but turning Cryx into a boring almost non-faction wasn't the answer.

>>51289870
I don't think it was released when the faction decks were launched.

>taking 17 points of shieldguard to protect your 20 points of support (neither of which have significant combat potential) while the rest of your army is still overcosted under the buffs

>>51289900
Well right now I've only got the starter box which I play against newer players. That's pretty fun, but I'll wait and see how things shake out before I get deeper into the undead stuff. They have some really pretty models though, so no harm in getting a few to paint already (WSC for example).

>>51289888
I once created a 3 player scenario where you had one central zone to score on and flags between the players that could be used to remove points from the respective opponent. It was probably not really balanced, but could have been worse.

As far as Steamroller goes, I like Recon most.

>>51289738
Skeleton warriors are cool.

Why do Cryx players say their faction is shit? Some caster look pretty good. I'm reading Asphyxious3 now and he's got a strong debuff, Cloak of Ash, Mobility, and FM Unyielding. So a Slayer goes up to 13/19 in combat. Even then, why do Cryx players say their shit is fragile? Circle players pay 18 points for a 14/17 heavy, when you get a 13/17 Slayer for just 10 points. Sure it needs a bit of support to really kill anything, but holy shit man 10 points? Cry about guns all you want, but Dawnguard Invictors cost 60% more points, and on average a unit will only deal 10 damage to a Slayer, all of which will be done in small bits so none will cripple a system.

It's not just the casters and jacks that seem good to me; their solos seem strong too. Bloat Thralls seem like a very strong anti-infantry option, even if they're slow and easy to kill. It's probably worth paying the extra 2 points for Mobius just to get +3" on the turn you want to go in and pretend you're an Ironback Spitter for a turn. Or Machine Wraiths. Cheap incorporeal models win games by sitting on objectives. Or just fuck up a Warmachine player's shit. As a Skorne player, these solos seem ridiculously strong considering mine are steaming garbage.

>>51289858
There are no Cryx tryx anymore.

>>51289921
This is probably the biggest problem with Trolls. Their stuff is good in a vacuum, but once you want to build a somewhat competitive list, you'll end up with about 15-20 points of support with no combat potential, about 10+ points of protection for that support, and while all your supporting models are good, they don't offer enough to make up for the 30 points less combat potential you have.

>>51289965
If you mean broken shit like the Necrosurgeon gun or the Excarnate all over the table, then thank god.

But yeah, Cryx needs something back. And while PP said they will no do a Cryx rework, I am fairly certain that they will get looked at now that the elephant in the room is back with its herd.

>>51289964
Some of their stuff is amazing. A lot really isn't though.

>>51289938
Why Recon? What about kill box scenarios?

>>51289983
Why not take 30 points of face beating then? (Or 20, because almost every faction brings about 10 points of support)

>>51289987
>Some of their stuff is amazing. A lot really isn't though.
But that's true for many factions. Even top dogs like Cygnar always complain about stormguard being trash.
Why is Cryx different then?

>>51289964
Asphyxious3 is one of the three tournament viable casters, but unyielding does nothing to mitigate the main problem of Slayers, which is losing arms to shooting. There's a big difference between def 13 and 14. Not to say Asphyxius can't buff def, but it's typically given to Satyxis Raiders.

>>51290010
>Why Recon? What about kill box scenarios?
It's well balanced in speed I think. It also allows for different approaches, though the most popular is of course "destroy objective, dominate for two, then retreat to the flag". Not that I dislike killbox scenarios, but I've really grown to like Recon.

>Why is Cryx different then?
It's a matter of three points I think:
1) There's just not enough good stuff in Cryx.
2) The playstyle of the faction seems to have changed drastically from Mk2.
3) Some players (keyword: some) are used to Cryx being a crutch faction.

People who say that Slayers are bad, are simply bad players.

They are dirt fucking cheap and hit like trucks. Expect to lose some of them along the way, but that's what you should expect from something that cheap, you dumb asshole.

>>51290026
>three tournament casters
Coven, Gaspy3 and Denny? What about Skarre1 and Scaverous?

>>51290046
Guess I'll try Recon next time.

>It's a matter of three points I think
Makes sense. Especially jacks seem to be incredibly limited, looking at lists on discount games. Unit-wise Satyxis raiders are everywhere, but there's some bane warriors and cavalry sprinkled into it.
Point two and three are kind of the the points where you say "git gud", but since most other factions had less of a paradigm shift in their playstyle, I can understand it. Although I don't think it's helpful to languish about what is lost. Why has nobody tried a Cryx jackspam? Sure, one Slayer might get shot to shit, but if there's 5 more of them, who cares? Under Gaspy3 they're even SPD 8 with pathfinder.

>>51290093
Juggernauts hit harder and are more survivable and only cost 2 points more. Crusaders are just as cheap as Slayers.

>>51290102
>jackspam

This is mk3 in a nutshell. PP was so focused on moving their jack kits that they ruined the game in the process.

>>51290141
Crusaders also have 1) 1 less initial, 2) less open fists, 3) less MAT, and 4) 2 less SPD. Emphasis on the 2 less SPD6. Yes you heard me right, Slayers are SPD6.

>>51290192
>infantry spam

This is mk2 in a nutshell. PP was so focused on moving their unit kits they ruined the game in the process.

>>51290192
>>51290229
I honestly think its safer to assume that they never knew what they were doing and accidentally made a fun game.

>>51290192
>>51290229
To be fair, it's incredibly difficult to balance around skew without using hard counters. And hard counters aren't fun.

>>51290229
No, because the imbalance wasn't as bad in mk2, not to mention infantry is actually interesting to use because things like positioning or cmd actually matter.

>>51290273

On the other hand: Jacks were too situational in mk2 for such an iconic part of the game. I mean, it's basically THE initial selling point, the big stompy robots. That was a serious problem.

>>51290010
Because without the 30 points of support our infantry dies to blast damage, wont scratch a light, wont hit anything with def over 12 while our beasts can be one rounded by expensive lights/cheap heavies and bounce off of heavies while our caster struggles to keep them from frenzying.

>>51290284
I liked it more with seing two ten mans in every game. Rarely less (unless mwi/jackspam) and rarely more (infatry casters and themes with discounts). Made it seem more like a battlefield, tactics mattered more and jacks still had a big role (armor cracking and swathing infantry, depending on the jack).

>>51290504
This shit. This shit right here is why nobody takes you serious.

>>51290552
Look at fennblades (without stone, because they are too fast for it to keep up). Now look at iron fang pikemen. Now look at dawnguard sentinels. Now look at nyss swordsmen. Now look at praetorian swordsmen. Now consider that we were supposed to be the big guys faction where we trade low speed, high cost and lack of tricks up our sleeves for good stats. Now consider that we were supposed to be an infantry faction, because we have shit beast support and okay infantry support (where skorne was supposed to be the tanky beast faction). Now justify this bullshit.

>>51275943
>"Cryx drop" is just a synonym for anti-infantry list, every list used infantry in mk2.
The term "Cryx Drop" evolved to mean "anti-infantry list" in the later days of Mk2, when infantry based lists became more the norm. But no, when that term was coined, it meant exactly what it sounds like. You had one list to deal with Gaspy2, and one list to deal with everything else. Cryx really was that bad.

>>51290664
So you are complaining that you have a lightning-fast reach vengeance melee unit? Just don't play with it then. If you want slow and tough, go play the slow and tough models. For fucks sake. I hate to say it, but you actually just don't like options.

>>51275943
>>51290676
>"Cryx drop" is just a synonym for anti-infantry list
That is not true. Cryx had a lot more to prepare for than infantry. Otherwise they wouldn't have dominated Mk2 like they did.

>>51290724
If you think that fennblades are better than the models are listed, you are delusional. If I want tough I will look at champions. Then I will weep whenever I see manowars, cataphract, blighted ogrun, skinwalkers and more.

>>51290772
READ NIGGER! READ!

>>51290772
>cataphract
Bitch please, 2 of the 3 Cataphract units are unplayable and have been since Mk3 dropped. Hell, Arcuarii were NEVER playable at any point in their existence.

>>51290141
Crusaders are total ass without support, due to their average MAT and awful movement. (which is the point, because Choir is basically their tax)

Juggernauts are easy to hit and very easy to outmaneuver, even with speed support, to compensate for the higher armor.

Slayer are DEF 13 (which means that average MAT/RAT 5 can't hit them), speed 6 (which is phenomenal btw) and have THREE initials.

Not a mathhammer guy, but I'm sure that 5 attacks from a charging Slayer are not far behind to 4 from a Juggernaut.

Also, Slayers have dual fists, meaning they can very easily throw things a Marauder for example could not.

Slayers are good jacks, they're just not tanky. Which isn't what they're supposed to be in the first place. Get in, wreck something and probably die.

>>51290789
Still better than 12/16 pow 11 weaponmasters.

>>51290877
Arcuarii are 11/15 pow 11 weaponmasters so suck my fat black dick.

>>51280519
The only three constants in life are death, taxes, and the internet blowing things out of proportion. Look, post-errata Molik is good, no doubt. He's certainly worth playing again with Mak1. No argument there.

But "insane", really? He's still not as dangerous as he was at the end of Mk2, with no ability to ignore free strikes (even on sidesteps). Even in his heydey, the Molik Missile never dominated the tournament scene, it was just the game's most memorable noobstomp.

I will give you this - the new Makeda1 looks like a well-rounded caster with a lot of answers. If she does end up being a strong tournament performer, you can bet the THREAT of Molik will be a significant part of her kit.

How do you beat Rahn? Friends don't Rahn friends, but my friends keep Rahning me. Are they not really my friends?

>>51290890
Except they are ranged and not one inch reach.

>>51290948
Anti magic tech and immunity to being moved or arm skews.

>>51290948
Which faction do you play?

>>51290905
I just can't help but feel that Skorne is now THE anti-battlegroup faction in a game full of battlegroups. Yesterday I had to put up with faggots at my LGS talking about how a Bronzeback can make up to 16 attacks in one turn now because of Jackhammer, and how no model should have that kind of damage output. As much as they were being retarded dipshits who need to learn to not clump their heavies up, it really is true that a single Bronzeback can blow up to 3 heavies off the table now with relative ease. If they're warjacks you don't even need all of your attacks, you just need to cripple them. That Molik Karn is fast and harder hitting than a Bronzeback now just makes him seem incredible. He almost feels as strong as Mk2 Karn, but just in a different way. Remember, Karn has now gone from 11 to 19 points, and gained a point of strength.

>>51290996
;^)

Tbh I'm probably gonna start using Makeda1 against Ret just because of the threat of Rahn. Quicken is shit but DEF15 infantry against magic bullshit is pretty much Rahn out of the game. My only problem is do I stick with my Nihilators, or buy Swordsmen.

>>51291045
Well in case of Skorne just take Orin and watch him cry.

>>51287593
>Skorne: Ghengis Khan, but only in the desert and with giant monsters instead of mongols
Genghis Khan, really? I mean, where are the skirmishing cavalry with the bows? Y'know, that military formation the Mongols were famous for and which defined their battle tactics for most of the various Hordes histories?

If I had to pick, I'd call out Skorne as being WMH Carthage. Invaders crossing "impassable" geographic barriers, showing up in the "civilized" world's back yard, highly competent leadership, well-equipped professional infantry, and flippin elephants.

>>51287644
>The skorne look pretty
Ummmm...

>Crocs in minions are literally swamp dwellers from Florida.
I think we can safely blame that one on the Ninja Turtles cartoon show.

>>51291066
>4 TKs
>12 cunts with pull magic attacks
The problem last game wasn't my caster being assassinated, it was two of my heavies being dragged in front of Sentinels who proceeded to bitchslap both off the table with ease because Sentinels are fair and balanced infantry.

>>51291087
Well you have plenty of ways to deal with Sentinels (Slingers, Bloodrunners) and Heavies that can't be dragged (Tiberion, Sentry).

>>51291112
>Sentry
My bad, he can in fact be dragged.

>>51291120
Also don't forget that if it's my Gladiator that gets dragged, I lose Rush. Which was exactly what happened that game. But Makeda1 will make all the bad things go away, don't worry.

>>51291144
Then don't put him to where he will get dragged. It's okay for the Gladiator to stay back a bit during the early game.

>>51291045
Oh, definitely, the jackhammer bronzeback is impressive. You know what, though, there are an awful lot of combinations in the game where you can take an expensive beast/jack, and ALL the resources from your caster, and do something impressive.

16 attacks from a single heavy is killer, but you need to put Makeda herself on the front line to make it work (something a lot of people seem to be ignoring with all this jackhammer hype). Much like with Stryker2 going nuts, it's one big move that either wins you the game, or loses it.

>>51291172
Thanks. This gets overlooked a lot. Jackhammer is at best RNG8. That's okay, but not crazy.

>>51291170
>Then don't put him to where he will get dragged
Nigger you and I both know that this is impossible.

>>51291172
Don't worry I was telling my LGS at the time that they're flipping out over nothing. Which made them flip out more because I was denying that Skorne was flagrantly broken. It gets very tiresome.

>>51291296
Having actually played against Rahn: Yes it fucking is. Now stop being a pussy and kill those fukcing elves.

>>51291215
>Thanks. This gets overlooked a lot. Jackhammer is at best RNG8. That's okay, but not crazy.
It's a great move. If you're playing Makeda1, you should be aware of all the ways you can abuse jackhammer. It WILL win you games sometimes. But no, it's not broken. It probably wouldn't make even a top-100 list of most broken things in the game right now.

>>51287485
Contra some of the other replies, most factions have general themes in their choices but are heavily built around core choices that you see in just about every list.

These faction-defining models/units:

Cygnar: Journeyman Warcaster. Has an ARM buff that works on jacks or whole units. Some warcasters have the same (or similar) buff, so with this Cygnar always has a good armor buff available, and sometimes two. It may be argued that Storm Lances are faction-defining these days, and to a point it's reasonable as you see them in just about all lists. Outside of these, Cygnar tends to run jacks that are expensive relative to their raw damage output but make up for it in other abilities. The faction as a whole prefers to shoot than melee.

Protectorate: Choir of Menoth. Each turn this unit can buff multiple jacks with +2 to damage rolls, immunity to spells, or immunity to non-magical ranged attacks. In the current ranged-heavy meta, "immunity to non-magical ranged attacks" is pretty much faction-defining on its own. Outside of that, they have very point-efficient jacks, and the best jack caster in the game in Amon.

Khador: One of the few that doesn't really have a faction-defining choice, but they tend to run highly-armored jacks that are slow, but most of their (commonly played) warcasters have ways to speed them up. They've got options for shooty and melee infantry, although the current meta tends to prefer the shooting.

Retribution: Arcanist Mechanik. Cheap solos that can buff jack melee damage output, add focus, or repair. Jack-wise they're vaguely Cygnar-like with expensive-relative-to-damage-output jacks that have other abilities (e.g., Banshees with a knockdown gun or Discordia with a shooting protection aura) and have probably the best infantry stable in the game, with excellent options for melee (Sentinels), skirmishing/shooting (Mage Hunter Strike Force), or jamming (Halbardiers).

Cryx are kinda meh right now.

>>51291873
(cont)

Trollbloods: Krielstone. Has an armor buff aura, and with attachment can choose a small strength buff or immunity to continuous effects in the aura as well (or stealth/incorporeal removal, but the range on it is so small as to be useless for the stealth part). Tends to run tough (has the rule Tough, but just tend to be harder to kill in general) infantry made tougher with the Krielstone. Has one of the most efficient beatsticks in Hordes with the Mauler, and a great shooting beast in the Bomber.

Circle: Sentry Stones. Extremely cheap unit with great infantry clearing sprays. Shifting Stones used to be their faction-defining unit, but it got nerfed enough in the Mk3 transition to not be auto-include anymore. Most Circle infantry is bad (with the exception of the Bloodtrackers who are excellent skirmish-style infantry), and especially made obsolete with the Sentry Stones being so good and handling infantry clear quite well. Likes to run glass-cannony beasts with good threat ranges and massive hitting power.

Legion: Hellmouth. Very hard to kill but immobile, projects a lot of threat and can hold zones. Has a variety of beasts, but tends to run glass-cannony.

Skorne: Paingiver Beast Handlers. Beast support unit that can buff melee, manage fury, and give free charges. Just got substantial buffs (like, two days ago) so the meta is still settling on what else is good in faction other than the beasts, which tend to run heavy and slow, but fairly resilient and with massive hitting power.

Mercs and Minions are fine as factions but don't really have a faction-defining core, and as such are kinda all over the place in what lists look like.

>>51287644
They're really more Louisiana than Florida. Get your regional stereotypes straight.

>>51291873
>>Cryx are kinda meh right now.
What the fuck. The style your write ups are going, why are you too lazy to do Cryx?

Cryx: Satyxis Raiders+UA. The best unit in Cryx to counter gunlines. Fast and immune to blast damage with the UA they can quickly tie up ranged models. The Witchcoven of Gharlgast also brings super stealth with their feat, probably one of the best counters to shooting. Their jacks are fast and vulnerable, so people mostly bring light jacks/arc nodes on legs and a select few character heavies

>>51292070
Everything hits hard when you've got ARM debuffs in faction.

>>51287511
As a CoC player, can confirm. This description is correct.

>>51287485
Protectorate of Menoth:
You play Protectorate, Menoth is your god.
Synergy Between Units.
Protectorate has the weakest jacks of any faction. However they have the best jack support turning their shitty jacks into monsters. However this comes at the cost of less jacks and more points sunk into support. Leading to a heavy emphasis on combined arms.

Notable exceptions:
Amon Ad-Raza: He takes nothing but jacks and they hit you hard and fast. Probably the best caster in faction and the best 'jack caster in the game.
Kreoss2: Epic Kreoss is the infantry caster extraordinaire (and my personal favorite.) Give him a bunch of weapon master exemplar infantry and watch the enemy jacks crumble.

>>51292070
Honestly, I'm in a large and very active meta and haven't played a game against Cryx in Mk3, and only seen a couple being played. I really don't have a feel for them in Mk3, and reading their cards just leaves a kinda meh impression.

Your description looks good, though.

Skorneposting will save this general.

How many boxes were the tactical arcanist corps in mk2?

File: tac corpse.jpg (217KB, 566x763px) Image search: [Google]

217KB, 566x763px

>>51294698
They had 5 each

>>51294698
5

>>51290229
You didn't play MkI, did you? With the rare exception of a few characters and arc nodes, warjacks were never used. Infantry and cav, which continued to be powerful into MkII, were the name of the game.

>(Hexeris 1) Lord Tyrant Hexeris [+28]
- Agonizer [6]
- Reptile Hound [4]
- Cyclops Raider [9]
- Cyclops Shaman [8]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Titan Sentry [15]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Mortitheurge Willbreaker [4]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]

>(Makeda 1) Archdomina Makeda [+29]
- Titan Sentry [15]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Molik Karn [19]
- Agonizer [6]
Nihilators (max) [15]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (min) [5]
Extoller Soulward [3]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]

>(Xerxis 1) Tyrant Xerxis [+28]
- Agonizer [6]
- Cyclops Raider [9]
- Bronzeback Titan [18]
- Titan Gladiator [15]
- Titan Sentry [15]
Cataphract Cetrati (max) [18]
- Tyrant Vorkesh [6]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Void Spirit [4]

We getting D A N K in here.

>>51290676
That's not really true. The term "Cryx drop" always meant infantry drop and was called such because Cryx couldn't buff their defensive stats to absurd levels like other factions. It just meant preparing for spam.

>>51290734
Except they didn't dominate MkII through all of its phases. Cryx drop comes from the early days of MkII when Molik sidestep and Kayazy were the bogeyman and it referred it non-buffed infantry spam (which is what every other faction did).

>>51290863
No offense, but it shows that you're not a math guy.

The big problem with the Slayer is not that it can't take a punch, but that it can't take a bullet. While the Juggernaut is protected from small arms fire through the virtue of having 8-10 damage reduction per shot, the Slayer only has 5-7 which is a very big difference when you're talking about damage variance for 2d6. Add to this that the Juggernaut takes 10 damage to have an removed to the Slayer's 7 and you might begin to see the problem.

So now let's talk about that damage difference. The Juggernaut produces two native attacks with one being P+S 15 and the other 19 while the Slayer has 16/16/12. If they're both fighting a target that is equal to or below ARM 17 with a single wound, the Slayer is definitely superior, but this advantage erodes with every +ARM/wound above that. If you look at an average warjack at ARM 18 and 30-ish boxes you start to see where the Slayer fails as the -3 damage per attack is not made up for by having +1 attack.

Your last point about the two open fists is definitely accurate, but again you want to keep in mind that Slayer arms are made of brittle twigs and that they're only STR 10 meaning they're needing to roll a 3+ on that second die to make up for it. That isn't a huge setback, but it's important to remember that the Slayer'a two hands don't equate to other heavies.

>>51290905
>Even in his heydey, the Molik Missile never dominated the tournament scene, it was just the game's most memorable noobstomp.

Actually in 2010 Molik Missile was a dominant force which ended in serious revisions to scenarios (and eventually Sidestep) in the same way eHaley and eDenny did later. Also MkI Molik Missile would've been huge had eVlad not been the only thing worth playing as his abilities were absurd with eMorghoul and led to eMorg's embarrassing MkII state.

>>51295302
You're comparing a strong model to the most egregiously strong warjack in the game. Of course the Slayer looks bad compared to the Juggernaut. What doesn't?

>>51295359
No, the guy I was replying to was. I was just showing him a bit of the reasoning for why Slayers are considered worse than Juggernauts.

File: DSC02544.jpg (7MB, 4896x3672px) Image search: [Google]

7MB, 4896x3672px

>>51284896

>>51295302
Power 10 + two dice beats Power 12 and one die almost always. What the fuck are you smoking?

>>51295392
You mean besides the fact that they're in different factions so have different support?

>>51295510
Again I replied to the example given.

>>51295460
I mean, it doesn't as it negates two off of that second die, but my point was it can't be compared with a standard heavy with two open hands. As I wrote the first time.