/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

I want a Sorcerer 20th edition

>>51244563
What is that monster fucking picture from?

>>51244563
that girl looks suprisingly dtf

>>51244681
Out of interest, what's the WoD difference between a Mage and a Sorcerer?

>>51244719
Probably a ritual thing.
Either a God-Machine breeding program, Spirit-cult, or something from stranger shores.

>>51244719
Wouldn't you be?

>>51244730
Mages are awakened and use True Magick. True Magick works by altering the laws of the universe to what the Mage wants.

Sorcerers are actually just studied mortals that any person can be and get their powers from the knowledge of spells. Their magic works by just creating the spell they need out of the magic they know and firing it off. They don't alter the laws of the universe and instead use the inborn laws of magic that are in the universe.

Magics alter the source code of the universe, Sorcerers use cheat codes.

>>51244767
Sounds like being a weaker proximi.

Is there a 'cap' on armor? As in can it go above 5/5?

>>51244784
It's more like a comparison between the Awakened and a user of the Magic Merits.

One's changing reality, one's using the principles of reality.

>>51244784
They're actually pretty fucking scary. Proximi are weak sauce compared to a Sorcerer.

A Sorcerer can do anything a Mage can do, but it takes them decades to get up to power. Mages get their power fast. For example, all Mummies are Sorcerers and they can do some fucking scary spells at higher levels, such as removing concepts from the universe, turning people into dragons, and binding gods to their wills.

>>51244819
Other than being safe from the 14" razor studded strap-on of paradox what's the major appeal? Besides role-playing of course.

>>51244563
DEEPURY UNNACCEPTABRE!!

>>51244850
see>>51244827

Most of the Order of Hermes Mages were Sorcerers before Awakening, the Order also has a stupidly high number of Sorcerers. As does the Technocracy. Science is actually based on Sorcery.
Mages make something, the Sorcerers replicate it until it becomes part of the Consensus. That's how the Ascension War has been fought.

As you can imagine, being able to do all the Wizardy stuff in WoD without the backlash of paradox sounds way more fun that sitting around not being able to throw a fireball. Mages can't really do any flashy magic without exploding into sparkles from it, which is why people like Sorcerers.

>>51244912
>Sorcerers before Awakening
Does a Mage retain their ability to perform Sorcery after Awakening?
I would imagine that some Sorcerers would be quite unhappy with the limitations of Magick upon Awakening, and would want to fall back to the security and stability of Sorcery?

>>51244683
Artist is Ben Newman

>>51244970
>Does a Mage retain their ability to perform Sorcery after Awakening?
That's something hinted upon in the Sorcerer book. In 2e WoD, it was you lost all your Sorcery upon Awakening, where you would just get an XP refund for Spheres which would make some scary ass Mages.
In Revised they changed it to either the 2e or you'd keep it. The argument they being that it would make sense that the Order of Hermes would keep teaching it, as would the Technocracy, since you could use it to cover up your True Magick. The community tends to favor the latter.
That being said, a person tends to Awaken before becoming good at Sorcery so it's not a big deal. But sometimes people Awaken as a skilled Sorcerer, which is where the water gets muddy, which is pretty typical for a PC.

Interesting fact to note, no Sphere covers the laws of Sorcery.

>>51245065
The Sons of Ether revised book, I believe, also allows them the ability to take the more Science-y Sorcery Paths (Alchemy, Shape shifting via genetic fuckery, and a few others.).

Has a storyteller's guide come out for 2E mage? I'm trying to figure out how to stat NPC mages.

Right now it's that everyone is expected to become a master in one of their path arcana within 4-5 years of their awakening with further degrees of mastery taking similar amounts of time. Mastery, being the minimum requirement before they can be an active voting member in counsilia politics or taking on students. Second degree masters are rare but not exceptionally like seeing someone with a doctorate. Third degree+ masters are like astronauts or olympic gold medalists rare and influential.

I'm thinking about using a 2/3/4 system going for every mastery you'd have two arcana up to adept, three up to disciple, and four up to apprentice.

>>51245065

Something useful to do was to get the most blatant spells, say fireball, as sorcery spell and throw it like crazy and keep the magick reserved for the other spells.

>>51245186
Yeah they talk about it here and there. The Dreamspeaker book has shit on Spirit Sorcery.

Sadly, most of the Sorcery paths are shit compared to the ones in Sorcery Revised, but the rules for Sorcery Revised are terribly written since they're supposed to be highly editable. Couple that with the fact that they didn't have an editor for the book, so the rules are just flat incompatible between PAGES is a problem.

I'd love to see DaveB take his had at making them. Mage the Awakening feels a lot more like Sorcery++ and he could turn the nob down a bit to make it fit Sorcery perfectly.

What cool shit can I do with spirit magic? I can't wrap my head around it.

>>51245233
You're a spooky pokemon master

>>51245207

There isnt one yet. So its mostly whatever you game need. Personally i mastery of any arcanum is like having a doctorate. And 2nd degree masters are like astronauts. But i prefer low powered games and archmastery is for gurren lagann wankers

>>51245233
Okay, so there's a second level of reality where Spirits live. Some stay there, needing to survive based on conditions which make the area hospitable to them, and others dwell in basically another dimension, and can come across easily at these breaches.#

You can summon, command, awaken, bind, enhance, and bargain with these Spirits.

Even if your GM doesn't want to make a spirit Ecosystem for you to get used to, just use the Summoning spell (Spirit 3) to summon the requisite Spirit to you.
Vampires causing problems? Summon a Fire Spirit.
Need to find a Murderer? Local Murder Spirit will likely be able to feel his Resonance.

>>51245311
Also you can use Twlight to become invisible and intangible, then enchant your axe to hit things regardless

>>51245311
Can I go all anime and awaken the spirit of a weapon to make it more powerful?

Can anyone sum up what is wrong with Genius: The Transgression? It seems like a cool game to me.

>>51245446
No, but you can bind a spirit to it to make it ore powerful

>>51245457
People's brains break and they tap into the Ork field, letting them glue together improbable contraptions with "mania".

>>51245457
Concepts in Ascension that didn't make the cut for Awakening incompetently ported over by butt-hurt autistics.

>>51245500
I don't see anything wrong with that.

>>51245522
Can you be more specific? I haven't read Ascension.

>>51245311
Isn't it that without a space conjunctional a spirit that isn't with sensory range when the spell goes off has to travel to your location? So if you call for an ice spirit in the middle of the sahara you may be waiting a while.

>>51245627
Oh wait, your asked what was wrong.
Okay, well they take that decent concept, and then staple every Gonzo SciFi cliche on to the end, especially the ones that don't make sense.

With lizard people empires, Green Martian invasions, "cyberspace" and so forth. Also unlike every other splat, they see no reason to hide, and have themes woefully out of keeping with most other groups.

Basically I wouldn't mind it so much of they dropped like 95 % of the setting, and didn't have even a single crossover.

>>51244563
>>51244719

>Finned

>>51245497
Are fetishes mechanically different than enhanced/imbued items or do they work the same way? Like what's the difference between a dagger imbued with Control Fire and a dagger with a fire spirit bound to it?

Also I just flicked through the standard Forces spells, is there really no spell to create fire? I could have sworn there was a Firebolt fraying spell.

Here's a World of Darkness play by post Roleplay

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000115-roleplaying-and-fanfiction/74860798

>>51245845
Powered by essence which is significantly easier to get ahold of than mana and not subject to paradox. Downside is it's not as versatile as awakened magic and it still suffers from the spirits ban and bane.

So that fire spirit you bound to a walking stick could make a great flamethrower for torching the vampire controlled business encroaching on your turf but it might not work in the rain and could be destroyed by coming into contact with baking soda.

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>>51246018

>gamefaqs

>>51244767
>>51244827
Are people actually trying to argue that sorcerers are somehow the equal of mages?

>>51246047
What's so wrong about gamefaqs? It's got better archiving than 4chan

>>51245845
The spells in the book are only examples. You can create fire with Forces •••••, turn residual energy into fire with Forces ••••, control ambient fire with Forces••, or intensify ambient fire with Forces•

>>51246080
Says the namefag who obviously uses Gamefaqs.

That link doesn't even work, that's how bad it is.

>>51246120
Well you must not have a Gamefaqs account anyways

>>51246080

david please

>>51246139
>Need an account
>Good
Pick one.

>>51245845
Imbued Items cast the imbued spell entirely as it was Imbued.
Enhanced Items contain a constant duration spell.

Fetishes contain a Spirit, and allow you to use its Numina and Influences as you desire. They're also powered by Essence, which is CRAZY easy for a Spirit Mage to get.

>>51246112
I know that the spells in the book aren't the only spells around, I'm just surprised that there isn't any spell to just shoot off fire the same way that Thunderbolt shoots off lightning.

>>51246214
So they're basically better than imbued items. Could any mage use a fetish or would they have to know Spirit? Like if a Thyrsus owed me one could I have him make me a fetish?

>>51246251
Lightning is more thematic and iconic for Forces given the standard symbolism of the Aether, and having two functionally identical/similar spells is a waste of book space, so not that much when you think about it.

Still you can make it yourself with Forces 4. Add in a Reach effect to perhaps set them on fire dealing 1 more Lethal each round until extinguished.

>>51246309
They're quite hard to make, Influences are rarely as powerful as spells, and if you let them accumulate too much Essence they disintegrate. Also some Spirits might take offense at their presence, and a key ingredient is a slumbering Spirit, and getting one of those powerful enough to justify making a Fetish can be a challenge and a half.

Anyone can use a Fetish if they have the know-how, and that'd be as significant a favor as "hey, can you build me an Imbued Item". You're asking him to spend a Willpower Dot to relinquish it safely, which while being like, 1 Experience, is still significant.

Also the crafting will likely incur Paradox. Possibly fairly significant Paradox.

>>51246363
So he'd have to owe me more than one and it might end up not being worth all the trouble. Why is spending a willpower dot significant? Don't you get it back after a full night's sleep? Or does relinquishing it knock down your max willpower capacity by one?

Could you use a familiar as a banner warden for extra spell control?

Since a familiar is considered 'connected' that's potentially an additional 3 spells.

>>51246457
Pretty much. Fetishes are most useful for Spirit Mages, who have powers which synergise with them and their use.

Willpower dot expenditure decreases maximum willpower until you spend 1 Experience to get it back.

Willpower points come back every night.

>>51246483
>Willpower points come back every night.
Or faster than that with Mind, Time, or Life magic.

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>>51246480
Familiars can't hold spells, because they don't have Souls.

If you somehow manage to get a Soul INTO your Familiar, that might be a different matter.

But until then. No.

>Implanting extra souls into your Sleepwalker retainer so he can carry more spells for you

>>51246050
They are equal to mages. They just take a hell of a lot longer to reach their power.

>>51246483
I guess Willpower dot expenditure is the only way to really discourage players from making a dozen imbued items. Although Tome of the Mysteries offers some cool alternative relinquishment costs.

>>51246721
Indeed, as will signs of sorcery so start brainstorming ideas for technoarcana.

>>51246690
That's nice. Keep making shit up.

This weekend should be interesting.
The fallout for the players doing all of their 'we attack Pentex with influence and downtimes!' has resulted in huge Influence blocks in town, and a dispatch of Project Twilight to the city because they didn't cover up enough stuff.
And one of them is going to try to dominate/presence up the lead FBI agent on scene (who is essentially the main character from Fringe).

It will be a really long Saturday.

>>51246833

The willingness of your players to make incredibly poor but exciting decisions is never not entertaining.

>>51246879
Glad you enjoy. Sometimes I feel like i'm the only LARPer who comes to the board, or at least the only LARPer who hasn't had the 'hurr durr goth girl sex' LARP experience.

Our staff has also converted some of the TF Valkyrie weapons to LARP stats as Twilight weapons. I feel sorry if that Toreador does not do things well, and if they continue to breach the Masquerade.

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>>51246018

>>51246759
>I haven't read Sorcerer Revised or Mummy

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You gents know of good starter pre-made chronicles for Mage: The Ascension?

I would like to get into the setting seeing as we never ran one and I figure it would be a good starter

>>51246980

Are you really comparing mummies to traditional sorcerers?

oWoD? Where sorcerers are explicitly watered down mages? The Order of Hermes seems to be an authority figure on that fact. Have fun dealing with archmages that can turn off gravity in the entire universe causing every star to go supernova.

>>51247078
An Elder Mummy can beat the shit the fuck out of an Archmage first off.

Secondly, any Sorcerer can learn the same Sorcery. There's literally no cap on power for Sorcery except that it take hundreds of years to get dots above 5.

>>51247110

after being party to this argument, The venerable house of Tremere is starting to make a lot more sense

>>51247110

That's nice headcanon there. Keep dreaming.

>>51246925
Also, we're winding up for the end of the world. Our game ends in November (to be replaced by Apocalypse at the start of 2018). Some things on the docket...
* The Withering will start and will start out slow, with low-Gens being affected throughout as we advance.
* The avatar of Lasombra has one target left in town, not sure if he's going to show up in town again.
* The Sabbat get their final event to determine if they survive to the final night.
* Giovanni/Setites are building the Independent Alliance.
* One lonesome little Premascine Giovanni is trying to fix the fucked up Underworld.
* Our 'Child of Lilith' thin blood 'Malkavian' is ramping up his religiousness and preparing to take control of the Thin-Bloods in LA from Jenna Cross.
* Gangrel Methuselah named Echidna is arming up to deal with Warlord Karsh. No one knows she's actually eliminating anti-Ennoia Gangrel.
* The Nosferatu have been driven out of the city or killed (open for new PCs, but the NPCs are gone) due to Pentex releasing Samsa Mockery Breed cockroach shifters into the city.
* An Archon is coming to the domain soon to assess the fallout of the Tremere blowing themselves up.
* Lots of insanity...

>>51244563
BIG FISH DICK!

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tell me about your last Mage story /tg/

was it nWoD or oWoD?

>>51247110
Mummies beating Archmasters? That's funny. Sorcery of any kind is static and by definition HAS a cap. Magick is dynamic and has no limit in potential.

>>51247110
Do mummies have sorcery 7+? If so page number's plz.

>>51247560
I played a Thyrsus homeless man wandering the world with his partner spirits Grandfather Bear, Right Husband and Left Wife. He was a half-Ainu shaman Arrow who was following the trail of a destructive spirit. He ended up with a young Forces Mage as an apprentice. The game didn't go very far after the first four sessions of just establishing stuff though.

>>51247560
An abnormal number of children were being admitted with terminal cancer. Upon inspection we discovered the kids were crudely made 'clones' of the real children.

Turns out the local pylon was given some sort of artifact that could quickly point out the location of sleepwalkers (which in our game setting is more common among children but as kids hit puberty most go back to sleep). Long story short they were turning the kids into grigori at an industrial scale.

Currently we're trying to figure out a way to wreck their fucked up operation.

>>51247715
>>51247885

I assume its nWoD since I have no clue what you are talking about :D

how many players total? Would you like there to be more? Less?

What made you stop with the sessions homeless dude?

>>51247650

Sorcery doesn't go higher than 6 dots. Same goes for werewolf gifts.

Only mage and vampire has a higher standard. And even then archmages (and the more powerful things they can become) will utterly annihilate antediluvians.

Static powers just don't equate to dynamic ones.

>>51248060
What's so cool about OWoD mummies?
Other than the Year of the Scarab being the best year.

>>51244719
All the girls in his art are dtf with the monsters.

>>51248056
It was NWoD Mage the Awakening. I was playing, not running. We had four players. The game fell apart due to a number of scheduling conflicts (work schedules that got moved to third shift, made it difficult to have the game).

>>51248111

trips for victory

bummer man, I h8 when chronos die due to IRL shit

>>51248056

You really want to get into a game, don't you?

>>51248248
aplogies, sincerely. I meant that it is oftenplayed a wacky AND that is makes no sense to get it as a result of trauma.

>>51248224
It happens. I had fun with that mage though. His backstory was he was the son of an American photojournalist father and an Ainu (native Japanese northerner) shaman mother who was an Apostate Mage. He grew up in the Ainu culture until his mother passed away, and he eventually left home as a Kai Chang Kain-esque wanderer ala Kung Fu. He ended up running afoul of a powerful destructive spirit just after he got to the US and followed it all around.

He ended up getting a young, newly-awakened Forces Mage as a combat apprentice and to teach about magic and Mage society. It was an... interesting dynamic, such as our 'wake up' routine which involved attacking him from nowhere in the middle of the night.

Bear had a good run for the short time the game was going, and he was the most murderface mage as he was a master of Life and Spirit, and shapeshifting and buffs were his bag.

>>51248385

that really spurs imaginatinon man. loads of fluff in this one to be sure.
did he meet the bear spirit in the states?

>>implying a rural gook Shaman would accept filthy Yankee seed

not even a Mage can make this happen

>>51248580
The spirits that he was partnered with (he had the Familiar and Additional Familiars Merit) were family spirits that had been familiars of his mother for years, they were part of the culture there.

As for that last part, eh? Whatever floats your boat, dude.

>>51244767
You're forgetting an important fact.

Sorcerers don't suffer Paradox.

>>51245231
>rules for Sorcery Revised are terribly written
I didn't get that from reading it at all. Why do you say it's broken?

>>51245446
The Garou could, back in the Old World....

>>51246120
Why so mad? Your ass is so roasted I can toast marshmellows on you.

>>51246759
I like how you never actually bother to read the books and still think you can convince people of your limp and insipid arguments, Aspel. Eat your own severed dick and fuck off.

>>51247061
A really good adventure to find your feet with was Loom of Fate, if memory serves. It has multiple branching paths, Marauders, Progenitors, secret labs and enough information about San Francisco to run a few games there with some homework, as well as asking bigger questions about destiny and free will.

Failing that, pick up a copy of the book they did for Las Vegas and play some Fear and Loathing in the Ascension War.

>>51247615
Except that Mummies don't get paradox, and they don't need to even get 5 dots in their Hekau paths before they can call down a meteor strike to level a city, or erase a person from existence. Also, they can't die permanently and hold grudges for MILLENIA. Take away the fancy spellcraft and Mages are still mortals.

>>51248099

Don't bother with classic mummy. I much prefer the new one. 2e has yet to arrive.

>>51247170

Tremere was described as a piss poor mage in life. Converting to vampirism boosted his capabilities but blocked him off from true power. Not that he isn't strong.

>>51249165
Calling down meteors from the heavens isn't really that impressive by mage standards, sorry.

Mages don't care how invincible you are. They will lock you down indefinitely and thoroughly study you. Which is arguably worse than death.

Erasing someone from existence is a very mage thing. Mummies are not unique in this manner.

>>51248099
>"Though much is taken, much abides; and though
>We are not now that strength which in old days
>Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
>One equal temper of heroic hearts,
>Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
>To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "
>--- Lord Tennyson

I never got into Mummy the Resurrection. Point of fact, I fucking hated it for killing off the true, old Mummies. That older game may have had it's flaws, but it was an opportunity to play *true* immortals. It was an amazing metaphor for being old enough to bury your friends and watch the world change beyond recognition, and trying to accept that without sinking into dementia. It had the "spiritual evil" stuff from Werewolf but with a distinctly Egyptian flavour, the underworld from Wraith and you ostensibly got to curbstomp the Setites from Vampire. You lived long enough for sweeping historical campaigns, got to walk a thousand battlefields and live so long you couldn't even remember it all, and hanging over your head was the ultimate horror - that there was no escape from this world. You could lose your Humanity and your mind and become a shambling undead horror, but your life would continue. Forever.

>>51244563
FISHED

>>51248369
Oh, okay. Apology accepted. Yes, I grant you, people conflating it with MPD piss me blind. Anyone not playing schizophrenia properly at my table is going to get fucking schooled. But just so you know, people can live with this potential flaw hidden in their minds and it can be bought out by a traumatic life event at any point. One of my friends' father developed the illness in his 40's after he migrated to another country, and the new culture, new language etc. was too much. Prognosis and outcomes are generally better for people who get diagnosed later in life. Children who develop it are the worse off because they can't remember a time they had clarity.

>>51248580
>what is love?

Stormfront, pls go and stay go and get kill

>>51249288
>Calling down meteors from the heavens isn't really that impressive by mage standards, sorry.

It is when there's no Paradox to blow you into gooey chunks and it's less than 5 dots. Do you just not read the thread before you post, or do you have cataracts?

>>51249483
lolparadox

>>51249514
The last resort mage haters will use against mage players. Even though paradox is an utter joke in 2e If you play it smart.

>>51249551

fuck its even a joke in revised. I made munchkin character to diffuse paradox and be able to play my sidious-unlimited powah pc and never got to use all those counter measures because paradox is not that big.

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I think I have a problem.

>>51249694
This is an obvious joker, because paradox in oWoD doesn't fuck around. It just doesn't.

>>51249320
>Humanity and your mind and become a shambling undead horror, but your life would continue. Forever.
Which book(s) were they presented in, I only knew of the Resurrection mummies before this post.

>>51249736

Played a whole 3 years campaign throwing thunder from my PC fingertips and i never gathered more than 3 points of paradox.

Which was kinda disappointing because i dropped like 15 points on familiar with that power that they get rid of paradox.

Hey tg question for Ascension fans.

So my DM is running a game and making a big deal about HIT-Marks, those terminator like robots, and how we should shit our pants etc etc.

I get that they are made of primium that gives them 5 dices of counter spelling but can i just attack them indirectly? Say a fireballs is not gonna do much but i could just use magic to levitate a giant rock and drop it on them as they get Dex 1 and then their counter spelling means shit right?

>>51249694
There you go again, Aspel, playing games without reading the rulebooks.

>>51249938

What rule did my ST miss then?

>>51249706
I've skimmed over it and I don't see any problem with it. What do you think is wrong with it?

>>51249992
Mostly the fact that it exists...I'm getting back into CWoD recently, but for some reason I'm dragging half of my D&D knowledge and sensibilities with me. So I'm making a Monster Manual, I've made this random city generator...

If this time next week I haven't made a whole Magic Item Compendium for Vampire, I'll be surprised.

>>51249745
The first one was called World of Darkness: Mummy. It was clunky as hell, Mummies had SIX virtues including the three that Vampires had, and it was pretty clear that the book only existed to create an antagonist for what was then the limited range of Masquerade products.

Mummy 2nd Ed. was, and still is, the best. A more complete, fleshed out product, streamlined and playtested. All you needed to play it was a Core (Werewolf, Wraith or Vampire).

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/346/World-of-Darkness-Mummy-2nd-edition

>>51249483
Your idea of impressive eludes me

>>51244563
But I thought Kanye-sama was gay.

>>51250699
He's a recovering gay fish. Now he's married to a hobbit.

>>51249912
I had players that took one of those fuckers out the good old fashioned way: high explosives.

>>51250198
Ignore the wounded pride of WoDNigger and Chrodfaggot sensibilities. There is no wrong way to enjoy these games. I actually think your work is of a high standard, and could be very useful to some newbies who are very lost when it comes to creative output.

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>>51250699
It's the Creature from The Blue Lagoon.

>>51250356
Don't feel bad, an acquired brain injury isn't as stigmatised as it used to be.

So what was your favorite Dark Eras chapter?

I enjoyed Ruins of Empire because I'd hoped we'd get some classical antiquarian raiding shit in a Mummy book at some point but I think my personal favorite was the Elizabethan era, I apparently would really, really like to play a vampire game in London like that

>>51249912
My Iteration X player just shot at the one he fought with his laser arm cannon till it died.

>>51251202
>favorite Dark Eras chapter

The Sundered World, by a wide margin.

A whole lot of new setting material and mythology, as well as mage and werewolf crossover,

>>51249912
Here's another thought: Paradox affects their implants and weapons just as hard as it affects wands and fireballs. Do what my Sabbat players did and strap human shields all over the place. Bare minimum it won't be able to use it's advanced weapons platforms, and if it does, the implants may shut down or even explode.

>jet fuel won't melt primium endoskeletons .png

>>51249952
The Paradox table? Even Coincidental effects in Revised run the risk of Paradox. Even when they're in front of nothing but Mages and MiB.

God is a Mage

>>51251385
God is a machine

>>51251409
God is a story

>>51251436
Stories are mages

>>51251409
Rage Against the Machine

>>51251188
1) Thyrsus
2) Not a slut

Choose one

>>51251477
Hey if I was a Thrysus I'd be a total slut too.

>>51251511
Life one does give you immunity to STDs.

>>51244986
LOL just looked up his webpage, everything he draws is loli. TY for the name, but homie don't roll like that.

>>51251192

No need to get all pissy when someone disagrees with your notion of what is impressive.

>>51251368
Awakening is nowhere near as punishing as Ascension. One of the reasons why I prefer it.

>>51251719
I like Awakening's world better than Ascension's. I never liked the whole technology vs. magic thing.

>>51251893
>I never liked the whole technology vs. magic thing.

'Consensual reality' was also a mechanical and setting clusterfuck.

>>51251385
God is a DJ

>>51251655
I wasn't, I was being smart with someone who was being pissy. Don't feel bad that your reading comprehension is terrible, the American education system is the worst in the world.

>>51251960
>complaining about consensual reality in a setting that had vampires werewolves ghosts faeries mummies demons possession and hollow earth theory

uh-huh.

I've never had any problem understanding it.

Maybe it just went over your head...? It's okay, sometimes these games are a little complicated for someone of your.... setbacks.

>>51252100
The irony of what you just wrote is absolutely amazing.

>>51252130

Ascension had an amazing setting. The metaplot just kinda ruined everything. The avatar storm made a lot of people angry.

>>51252130
Please, pretty please, defend 'consensual reality'. I've always wanted to see someone try.

>>51252210
what exactly is the problem with it? its a part of the setting. i dont really give a fuck if you like it.

>>51251960
The technocracy weren't compelling antagonists either.

>>51252100
>I was being smart
>i'm indirectly calling people stupid by implying that they're brain damaged and uneducated
>this has surely never been done before
>feel the sting of my wit, you knave!

Get over yourself.

>>51252224
I'm more interested in seeing you detail all of its pros.

>>51252210
Reality is what you make it. Someone scratches my car. I can choose to get angry, and spend my entire day pissed off, and at that point everything else that happens is salt in the wound. Or, I can choose to shrug it off, and enjoy what pleasures come my way, unblemished by one bad thing that happens to me.

People see the hand of God in the work of cancers going into remission. A bunch of stupid faggots on this Chan insist global warming isn't happening, despite Pacific Island nations disappearing under water, because it hasn't affected their lives. Yet. In WW2 a bomb smashed through the roof of a church in the Mediterranean while parishioners prayed. They saw it as divine intervention. The bomb squad saw it as a close call.

Ascension took this idea and cranked it up a few notches. Unsurprising, given it's about fucking MAGIC in a world with VAMPIRES and FAERIES. I don't see you complaining about the world of darkness in any other respect.

Don't blame others for your lack of imagination, or your inability to philosophise. Or, for that matter, your chronic inability to seperate reality from a fucking roleplay game.

>mike drop

Only one thing is the same in both oWoD and nWoD

Mages reign supreme

>>51252268
Your tears are amazing lubricant for my cock. Cry more, I'm so close....

>>51252130
Anon, it is clear to everyone here that you are a genius. Please explain this "consensual reality" to me. I'm just a simple, brain damaged, unread student of the American education system and therefore have no chance of understanding these complex game concepts. Please bestow upon me a fraction of your limitless knowledge of this game's mechanics.

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Does this general ALWAYS devolve into edgy faggots bitching at each other? Yall niggas need to calm the fuck down bruh

is only gaem

y u have to be mad?

>>51252267
Then you're doing it wrong.

>>51252327
I don't see how any of this shit actually defends or explains consensual reality as a concept. All I see is "there's a bunch of supernatural shit going on so don't think too hard about this and just roll with it".

Holy shit is this an aspel sighting?

>>51252327
>In WW2 a bomb smashed through the roof of a church in the Mediterranean while parishioners prayed [and failed to explode]

fix'd

>>51252402
>y u have to be mad?
Because my dad was an alcoholic who only ever paid attention to me when he was giving me bruises with his fists or welts with his belt.

>>51252327
I blame the creators for their unwillingness to follow 'consensual reality' down its particular rabbit hole, either out of laziness, incompetence or both. If they had, I may have even respected the idea, even if it still wouldn't have been my cup of tea.

>>51252424
>I don't see how any of this shit actually defends or explains consensual reality as a concept.

That's your damage, pal. "reality is what you make it" is a common enough concept in philosophy. You'd know that if you tried reading a book that didn't have large yellow and red print KAPOW and ZAPs in it. I'm afraid they haven't done Rene Descartes's Meditations in a comic book format yet.

>>51252267
>The technocracy weren't compelling antagonists either.

Antagonists? Heck, no.

They were the heroes of the setting, much to the 1990's Captain Planet emo-chagrin of the game developers.

I'll take indoor plumbing, vaccines, the internet and no man-eating dragons flying down Fifth Avenue over the insular, elitist magical crap being pumped out by the Traditions.

>>51252267
That's right. The Technocracy were good protagonists. Nothing more fun than stamping out reality terrorists and enforcing the laws of science

>>51252402
>y u have to be mad?

My best friend's idiot doctor gave her all the valium a junkie could ever need without looking into her drinking habits. Now she's sweating out withdrawal and needs an upper endoscopy to see if she has stomach cancer.

>>51252506
I don't care about the philosophical concept. I meant the game mechanic. The more you bluster and insult me in lieu of actually just explaining and defending the GAME MECHANIC, the more convinced I am that it is actually just stupid and indefensible. Or that you're actually just stupid and incapable of defending it.

One of the two. Possibly both. Probably both.

>>51248060
Nah, Hekau for Mummies also goes up to level 9

>>51252402
>y u have to be mad?

My little brother died of cot death when I was seven and I found the body. The purple blotches of lividity on his tiny body and his lifeless eyes staring into mine haunt me to this day.

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>>51252506
>"reality is what you make it" is a common enough concept in philosophy.

The problem was Ascension wasn't a philosophy text but a ttrpg that was supposed to actually be playable. Consensual reality was a rule and mechanics nightmare and rendered the setting virtually unplayable. Heck, the Avatar Storm was part of an attempt to eliminate some of the unplayable gonzo mess, and all it did was piss off part of the fanbase.

This one sidebar alone (and there are others) exemplifies the admitted ridiculousness and problems with "consensual reality" in an rpg.

>>51252556
>Nothing more fun than stamping out reality terrorists and enforcing the laws of science

The only good reality deviant is a disintegrated reality deviant.

>>51252335
Mages have always reigned supreme in terms of theoretical potential. It fits their theme.

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>>51252506
Oi. Different Anon here. I read tons of books that have large yellow and red print KAPOW and ZAPs in them, and I perfectly understand the idea of the Consensus. Hell, it's a concept that's popped up IN some of those comics:

>"It's so obvious. I can actually SEE and hear and feel and taste it and...the fundamental forces are yoked by a single thought. It's thought-controlled! [...] I can actually SEE the machinery and wire connecting and seperating everything since it all began...this is how HE sees ALL the time, every day. Like, it's all JUST US in here, TOGETHER. And we're all we've got."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RfUUJH2TvU

Funnily enough, Luthor in All-Star Superman is a pretty good example of any of the Traditions on the Rogue Council and the arguments they constantly make against the Technocracy. And Superman's response is the Technocracy's response back.

>"If it had mattered to you, Luthor, you could have saved the world years ago."

Mind, I'm not saying that the Technocracy and Superman are really comparable beyond that. Just that at some point the Technocracy became the one faction in the World of Darkness that I actually felt like I could cheer for, since everything they're doing is focused on protecting everyday, normal people. While the Rogue Council and the Traditions, meanwhile, are all selfishly trying to change reality to fit THEIR paradigm better, regardless of its impact on those normal people.

...anyway, moral of the story is All-Star Superman is a good comic. Read it.

>>51252650
>I meant the game mechanic

Jesus, that's even easier. Reality is shaped by the paradigm, or the personal vision if you prefer, of individual Mages when they work their Magick. Sleepers do exactly the same, they shape reality back to what they believe it should be. The paradigm of "that's impossible". They shape it back to what they were raised to believe was possible, what schools and media told them was possible. It's unconscious because they haven't learnt to focus their Will and expand their mind to accept new possibilities. All Mages come from Sleepers originally, the ability is just something buried in human potential. Sleepers allow Vampires and Werewolves to exist because some part of them still believes in fairy stories, and such beasts have become part of human culture. Mages not so much, because the Technocracy suppressed the details of their hated foes.

You're pretending to be dense, right? For fun?

>>51252691
>Help, philosophy in a game about the nature of reality

There's always TOON

>>51252747

If consensual reality was as easy a game mechanic as you imply, there wouldn't remotely be a need for ridiculous sidebars like the one i M20 posted above >>51252691 in a game over 20 years old with multiple editions and innumerable supplements.

>>51252402
>y u have to be mad?
my wife moved to another country and faked her own death to get away from me then sent emails to her friends laughing about it

>>51252783
>Help, philosophy in a game about the nature of reality
>There's always TOON

Or CofD Mage, when WW finally understood that the concept of consensual reality did not translate well to a playable rpg.

>>51252787
You seem to be forgetting the Phil Brucatto effect. Also, this wouldn't be the first time fans came up with a more elegant solution than the creators of the game/film/tv show/book

>>51252805
Consensual reality was fine. The way the writers handled it was not.

>>51252787
holy shit, moving goal posts again? you're going to need a new shovel

>>51252805
That's a really nice glass house you got there WAIT WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH THAT BRICK

>>51252732
>Superman
>Good

Mage Supremacist confirmed

I just like turning vampires into lawnchairs.

>>51252787
I actually don't understand the issue.

99.99% of everyone believes reality works a certain way, so it does.

.01% of people think reality should work different, according to their own paradigm, and they believe it strongly enough that they can actually make it work differently. But if they go against the Consensus of how the 99.99% think it should work where the 99.99% can see it, then they get hit with were paradoxical effects as reality attempts to reconcile the Consensus against the mage's paradigm.

Oh, and about .01% of that .01% believe so strongly in their paradigm that they can impose their paradigm on reality regardless of what the Consensus insists reality should be, and can tell paradox to fuck off. Also they tend to be irrevocably insane. SEE: Witches from Puella Magi Madoka Magica (sort of).

This seems easy, what's the issue?

If I was making a new Vampire: The Masquerade video game, I'd totally have a side-mission where you have to deal with a Marauder

>>51252818
>>51252838

Brucato, while certainly an incompetent douche, was hardly the only Ascension developer or author confronted with the problem of how to make consensual reality work under the rules while maintain the setting.

No one ever succeeded, and often the attempts like M20 made the issue more confusing or unworkable.

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>>51244986

>>51252896
How are mages not the greatest splat?

>>51252732
Wow. Well, I can admit when I was wrong. Clearly this asshole >>51252424 needs to read some more comics instead of large print books with lift-up flaps.

>>51252896
Just to keep the discussion on-topic, if you're honestly going to try and say that All-Star Superman isn't one of the best Superman comics written in the last 20 years, then you're so wrong you WILL be hit by Paradox.

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>>51252906

Defining and applying coincidence is unworkable.

Here's another sidebar that preceded >>51252691

>>51252747
Ok so now I understand the concept, and I don't like it. So fantastic things are allowed to exist because they exist in that world's fiction. But that doesn't apply to mages. Why? The Technocracy erased all traces of magely magic from fiction? There's no Merlin? No voodoo? No bokor? No cackling witches over a cauldron? And if the Technocracy stamped out mages from the consensus, why don't they do the same for monsters? Their whole thing is to protect people in a shroud of normalcy, right?

I would like to shift the tone of this conversation away from hostile, because I legitimately do not know these things and I want to.

>>51252906
>99.99% of everyone believes reality works a certain way, so it does.
I'd say that's false, but upon reflection, it'd simply take the least amount of people necessary to affect global changes to believe everyone else shares the same beliefs they do, to make it a fact. This goes for anything really.

>>51252969
>Defining and applying coincidence is unworkable.

Over in D&D we call it "subject to DM fiat" and find that it thereby becomes perfectly workable.

Speaking as someone who has never played Mage but likes the idea of the Consensus and Paradigms that go against it, I get the sense that Mage is making things more complicated then they need to be.

>>51253017
>"subject to DM fiat"

If every damned attempt at a spell results in "subject to DM fiat," the system is broken.

The idea of Consensu and Paradigm is interesting, but that's not the problem. It's actually playing a game with consistent and understandable rules that fit into the purported setting is where all the problems lie.

It is indeed complicated, but all attempts to simply it have failed. That's why over 20 years and so many editions and supplements later, we still need long and confusing sidebars like the ones posted above that still really don't resolve anything.

I think you fuckers all need a reminder as to why we need the Masquerade, the Veil or whatever your splat calls cleaning up after themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnF1OtP2Svk

>>51252997
The Old World of Darkness didn't mesh well together, but in short, God exists, God does not care about the Consensus, God does not need the Consensus to think that he exists in order to exist, God is all-powerful with no exception, and God says that Vampires exist, so they do.

I can't speak as to the rest as I'm not familiar enough with them. However - again, as someone who's never actually played Mage - were I to run a game of Mage, I'd simply say that the collective belief in vampires is strong enough for vampires to exist, but the vampires in Mage would not be VtM-style Kindred, but instead simply the Consensus' idea of how vampires can and should act. Ditto werewolves and so on. There's no Caine or anything, just occasionally the collective belief that vampires might exist is strong enough that a vampire actually comes into being through some means.

They tend to roughly parallel whatever version of vampires are most popular at the time, though they also still incorporate the collective understanding of what a vampire should be.

Ditto everything else (werewolves, etc.)

The reason why Mages have to deal with Paradox and vampires don't is because Vampires are created from and by the Consensus, as outlined above. They're products of the Consensus, so they're not subject to Paradox. A Mage, conversely, is expressly trying to assert his paradigm onto the Consensus - he's not a product of it, he's fighting it. So he has to deal with Paradox.

>>51252969
Too Brucatto: Didn't Read.

Here's an easy solution: no witnesses? Coincidental. Supernatural witnesses? Coincidental. Sleeper witnesses? Vulgar.

Is it something that is plausable? Coincidental.
Is it utterly fantastic? Vulgar.

Not hard, Phillip. Not hard.

>>51253112
If you were ever going to play Mage then you'd be better off playing Awakening.

>>51253062
This really shouldn't be so hard. Again, haven't played Mage, but coming in from Vampire, here's how I'd do it.

>"I want to do [thing X], using [Sphere]"
"Okay, spend a point of willpower and roll [Attribute dots] plus [Ability dots], Difficulty Y. Your total dice pool can't exceed your dots in [Sphere]."
>"I got Y-2 successes, which isn't enough."
"You get smacked by 2 Paradox, then."

There is no earthly reason why magic should be more complicated than that.

>>51253112
The god that cursed Cain might not actually be the all-mighty god that mages speak of living in the ascended realm. There was a book that suggested he may be nothing more than a powerful Celestine (Gaia & the Triat etc) and can't directly intervene.

It makes sense considering Masters of the Art seriously hinted twice that a forces mage caused the Big Bang.

And why should the Judeo Christian god be the supreme deity? That seems too western biased.

>>51253115

You're ignoring how the Spheres are actually supposed to work. You're effectively eliminating two of the setting's fundamental precepts, paradigm and consensual reality. However, congratulations on forming what became the magic system for Awakening 2e after it finally discarded all the detritus from Awakening.

See the teleportation / taxi issue as one of the quintessential examples of why your simple formula doesn't really work unless you totally rewrite the rules and change the setting.

>>51253167
>There is no earthly reason why magic should be more complicated than that.

Agreed, and that's precisely the point and why Awakening 2e finally eliminated all traces of consensual reality and the coincidence / vulgar distinctions

>>51253167
And yet, here we all are, surrounded by omniscient observers, average perceivers and purple paradigms.

>>51252997
>shifting tone away from hostile

Okay, okay. *deep breath*

I think the answer lies in the appearance of the effect. Some books, particularly in crossover sections, remind ST's that while Mother's Touch, Obeah and Life 3 can all heal damage, they would all look quite different to each other. Maybe the SFX involved in Magick is truly spectacular, enough to really make people notice. Other splats have spent centuries blending in and keeping a low profile, and often have mechanics to force Sleepers into forgetting what they saw. Maybe Magick is just too vulgar in comparison; we don't know because the WW/OPP writers are hacks.

The examples you gave all exist in fiction, yes, as well as existing in cultural enclaves. That in itself was suggested as an optional rule in the oft-maligned M20 Core - Akashic Brotherhood monks throwing mighty Kung Fu or Life Magic using TCM or acupuncture would count as coincidental in Chinatown because people are raised to accept it. Westerners, on the other hand, well they just "know better" than those "primitive types" and are more rigid in what they accept.

Stamping out the other supers is something the Technocracy would try to do if they could understand them, but they really don't. They have to do some serious explaining to themselves to justify how a Garou can shapeshift without exploding in a paradox storm, or how Kindred can live entirely off the Quintessence in blood. Some things even The Man doesn't know....

>>51253197
>And why should the Judeo Christian god be the supreme deity? That seems too western biased.
Yes we better make it some obscure Siberian deity to make sure the game is DIVERSE and INCLUSIVE.

>>51253201
>You're ignoring how the Spheres are actually supposed to work.

I don't see how that's even relevant to the discussion.

> You're effectively eliminating two of the setting's fundamental precepts, paradigm and consensual reality.

No. I'm not. Paradigm is just the method you use, and the explanation you give yourself as to why it works. It has nothing to do with effects being either Vulgar or Coincidental.

Consensual Reality works because sleepers reinforce it, right? So if there are no sleepers around, they can't enforce it, now can they?

>>51253246

I think the Judeo Christian god might be diverse enough if referred to with a special gender non-specific pronoun and portrayed as a black, disabled transgender lesbian.

>>51253226
Again, you're confusing the brilliance of the game concept with the obscenity that is Phil Brucatto's writing. If they hired someone eloquent and halfway competent for M20 we wouldn't even be having this discussion now.

Consensual reality was really dumb. It encouraged powergamy PCs to create bullshit easy paradigms. Clap your hands and Believe in Fairies to solve all our problems! It also led to lazy PCs who expect things to work out for them without trying. Just because a person thinks they're morally right, doesn't change the fact they're about to hit by the truck. You need the magic to cheat out reality.

Also the idea that belief creates reality would break the game space. Belief creates perception. that was always the intent of it's usage. Lots of people already believe in ignorant horseshit. Like banana peels making people slip.

How does the power of observing and recording actually real evidence get trumpped by a group of ignorant 13 year old kids who BELIEVE hard enough. before you say Technocracy. Thats using conspiracy as a crutch. Tech had to be around in the last few centuries, and what about before they were a thing? and before you say Tech is Magic. No, because the common scientific laws had to be a thing, otherwise shipping sailing farming are nonsense. Therefore the Technocracy would have had to be a thing at the beginning of civilization. Or maybe the world already has natural laws mankind observes and creates tools to use.

AND if you go down fucking further. Humans as a species don't make sense. in CR humans might aswell have purely spiritual embodiments and then we'd have to foolishly limit ourselves into the human body to kick start people.

What makes something real. Third party perspective. Outside third perceptive looking at the interaction of first person second person.

As a surface idea, it's pretty cool and nice shorthand to explain when shit goes haywire, but applying the ideological implications of CR to a game beyond a superficial layer breaks the game. Mage is a game about explaining the Meta Narratives about perception

The constant fights and arguments that break out because of this. 20+ years and we still have the same conversation

>>51253289
>So if there are no sleepers around, they can't enforce it, now can they?

Have you actually read any of the spellcasting sections of the Ascension books?

>>51253301
>>51252475

>>51253197
When Jesus was a thrall to Satan in-universe it's just Judeo, not Christian.

>>51253224
The thing is what I posted doesn't need to exist separate from Consensual Reality:

>No Sleepers around: Difficulty -2
>One Sleeper observing: Difficulty -1
>Handful of Sleepers (a single classroom or kid's birthday party): Difficulty +0
>Many Sleepers (Town Hall meeting): Difficulty +1
>A whole mess of Sleepers (Random city street):Difficulty +2
>Tons and tons of Sleepers (Times Square, Gilette Stadium): Difficulty +3

>Coincidental Magic: -1 Difficulty or less, subject to Storyteller fiat
>Vulgar Magic: +1 Difficulty or more, subject to Storyteller fiat

And finally, effects depending on Paradox (which you get for falling short of the Successes - being 1 shy of Success gets you one Paradox, for example):

>1 Paradox: Your spell actually works, but you get a Paradox, which raises all further spells Difficulty by 1.
>2-3 Paradox: Your spell fails, but the Sleepers noticed weirdness. Take some lethal damage equal to half the dice you were rolling, rounded down (minimum 1)
>4-5 Paradox: Take some lethal damage equal to the number of dice you were rolling
>6+ Paradox: Take some lethal damage and lose 1 permanent Willpower point.
>Botch: Reality violently snaps back at you and something terrible will happen, subject to Storyteller fiat and related to what you were trying to do. A demon popping up to try and eat you is encouraged.

>>51253301

The mess of "coincidence" and consensual reality existed since the first edition of Ascension, and lasted over 20 years with multiple editions and over 100 supplements.

Brucato is a fool, but he's not responsible for the problem. If it was so easy to solve within the game's setting, it would have be done many years earlier. Brucato's sidebars were simply an overview of just some of the myriad of problems with the spellcasting and paradigm system.

>>51253197

It was an exemplar that might have created the universe. And it was forces 9 and prime 9. Regardless it makes Cain & the Antediluvians look like chumps. Celestines are also stronger than Exemplars. Mages can also become them. The last option is the Oracle.

>>51253246
>>51253298

Why should any earthly god be supreme when the universe is already so big? The technocracy has encountered alien civilizations before.

>>51252957
99% of reality believes supes is a marysue so guess I win then. Belief makes reality Right? I believe I am right therefore I win. Consensual reality in action

>>51253362
I believe you're wrong therefore you lose.

What now?

>>51253319

My god, even without the consensual / coincidence problems, the old difficulty number shifting and varied target number mechanics were a fucking overbearing, time consuming mess.

>>51253357
Are you proposing Azathoth be the supreme god of OWoD?

>>51253388
It's a nice thought.

>>51253373
Yes thank you for helping me demonstrate why Consensual reality is Shit

>>51253388

Would that be so bad?

>>51253375
I just want to cast Magic Missile at the Darkness Why is it taking ten mins for a six sec combat action, That's up to GM fiat anyways?

HOW DO WE USE YOUR MAGIC SYSTEM PHIL YOU FUCKING HACK

>>51252902
Phil Brucato officially hates you now

>>51253443
Yes, I wouldn't be able to make all of my OWoD chronicles very heavy handed Judeo-Christian allegories.

>>51253357
So mages are stronger than the god that cursed Cain? That seems a bit much.

>>51253512
Well unlike oWoD God mages aren't dead so there's that

>>51252747
>Sleepers allow Vampires and Werewolves to exist because some part of them still believes in fairy stories, and such beasts have become part of human culture.
This is bullshit. Mages are just as much part of human culture as those monsters (perhaps even more), and you don't see vampires struggle with everyday Paradox of existence or every time even they use a discipline.

>>51253512
Simply accept 'Mage Supremacy' into your heart, and cast aside all lesser splats. Especially those only useful as lawn-chairs.

>>51253512
Did you miss the 20 some odd years of head-scratching of why Tremere took a downgrade in power for an inconvenient form of immortality?

>implying global warming is real

Other than being a mana battery what are some other useful things I can do with a familiar?

>>51253580
>implying blacks weren't fit only for slavery

>>51253563
The only possible explanation for exchanging *PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER* for gutter-magic and a sun allergy is mental retardation. Tremere was simply a retard.

>>51253549
The Universe hates mages, it doesn't give a shit about the other supernaturals.

Everybody hates mages.

Even other mages.

>>51253591
You can use them to spy, distract, attack, and you can have them use their numina.

>>51253612
meh. maybe he saw the avatar storm coming and didnt want to be booted out of this world.

>>51253607
>implying vaccines are not a technocratic ploy to cause autism in the people to better control them

>>51253689
>implying fluoride isn't put in the water to create a more susceptible and docile populace

>>51253659
If true, you gotta give him props for having the courage to decide to live as a cripple.

I'm gonna become a Mage and reign over all other supernaturals

>>51253555

I loved reading this.

>>51253362
>99% of reality believes supes is a marysue

I'd love to see your proof of that, particularly since he regularly ranks within the Top 5 of any surveys about peoples' favorite superheroes, and is never not in the Top 10.

He's also now a Mary Sue. Raw power is not what makes a character a Mary Sue; what makes them a Sue is whether or not they ever face any actual challenges in their stories, and if they ever learn and grow from those challenges. Superman is challenges, even beaten, all the time. Within the limits of the medium - comic book characters are relatively static - Superman certainly learns and grows.

But why am I bothering, you don't read comics and your total exposure to Superman is probably the godawful Man of Steel and the even worse Batman v. Superman. On the outside you may have watched the Justice League cartoon. The point is, you're almost certainly talking out your ass.

>>51253549
Again, I think the difference is that vampires are products of the Consensus and acting according to the Consensus, part of which involves weird bullshit magic powers. Mages, meanwhile, are trying to actively subvert and override the Consensus. So they get slapped with Paradox.

Wasn't there a comment upthread about Sorcerers, mortals who could use Magic that took a lot longer than Mages' magic, but is Paradox-proof? Sorcerers are probably what you're thinking of: Consensus-Approved magicians.

The thing is that Mages aren't simply trying to cast spells. They're actively trying to change reality itself.

>>51253749
>He's also now a Mary Sue.

*not a Mary Sue.

Mea culpa.

>>51253749
To be fair, 99% of idiots think Clark is a mary sue.

>>51253722
>implying the syndicate aren't jews

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>>51253749
>Consensus for vampires involves weird bullshit magic powers
>Consensus for mages don't

>The thing is that Mages aren't simply trying to cast spells. They're actively trying to change reality itself.
And? If reality itself resists change, what the fuck is Consensus all about? If Consensus resists change, why the fuck I can't just call God for help, given that more than 50% of world's population does believe in Judeo-Christian God?

>>51253798
Because mages are apparently stronger than god.

>>51253749
>Superman is challenges, even beaten, all the time.
Could you please introduce me to the story there Superman suffers real, lasting defeat at least one time?

>>51253798
Well, I can think of two possibilities.

1) God exists, God is all-powerful bar nothing, God does not care about the Consensus, God exists regardless of what the Consensus thinks. Whenever the Consensus tries to conjure up a ConGod, actual God just gets rid of him. Either that or God just absorbs all that belief in the first place, so a ConGod never comes into being in the first place. That being the case, God has better things to do then deal with whatever your problems are.

2) There is a Consensus God, but part of the Consensus belief is "God helps those who help themselves". When you call upon God, make a check, and get enough successes to succeed, that's Consensus God helping you. When an enemy fails or botches a roll, that's the Consensus God helping you. The point is, Consensus God does not act overtly, because the Consensus is that the Almighty does not act overtly.

>Consensus for vampires involves weird bullshit magic powers
>Consensus for mages don't

Again, I think you're missing the finer detail. It's not about what Mages do, it's about how they go about doing it. It's not that Mages are casting spells, it's HOW they're casting spells: by forcing their Paradigm onto reality, irrespective of what the Consensus has to say about it. That results in Paradox.

If they learned Sorcery - i.e., Consensus-approved magic - then they could cast magic without ever having to worry about Paradox. But Mages aren't willing to do that, because a) it takes a long time, and b) Mages don't simply want to cast spells, they want to actively change the Consensus so that their Paradigm is how the world works, the result of which will be that people who try to do something like split the atom or build a working car engine or something get smacked by Paradox instead of them.

>>51253591
>other useful things for familiars

The love that dare not speak its name

>>51253902
Don't listen to this guy. Mage supremacists have spoken. God is nothing more than another lawn chair.

>>51253945
Excuse me but I'm a seventh day haightist. My god is an ashtray.

>>51253902
>part of the Consensus belief is "God helps those who help themselves"
Not really. Otherwise there would be no such thing as prayer.

>If they learned Sorcery - i.e., Consensus-approved magic
Sorcery is highly specific. Consensus doesn't have any specific views about mages. Sorcery could be a Consensus-approved magic only if there existed, well, consensus about how does it work. There isn't one.

>then they could cast magic without ever having to worry about Paradox.
Consensus doesn't care about inner nature of the working - otherwise Technocracy shit wouldn't fly. Consensus care about appearance. By Consensus, Order of Hermes and Verbena shouldn't suffer any Paradox at all, because their works are stereotypically - Consensusually - wizardly/witchly.

But What If God Was One Of Us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Gx1Pv02w3Q

>>51253869
>Could you please introduce me to the story there Superman suffers real, lasting defeat at least one time?

I can't do that for any comic book character, because that's not how the medium works, and you know it. Comic books are slaves to the monster NOHAMOTYO - No One Has A Memory Over Two Years Old. NOHAMOTYO dictates that comic heroes will go through the same shit over and over again and never really, fundamentally change from anything that happens to them, but rather will change to fit with the reader base of the time and what the industry thinks will sell (hence 90s anti-heroes, for example).

However, I suppose the iconic example is Superman failing to save John Kent, Clark's father, from his heart attack. The story's been retold a few times, and it's not part of his backstory - there's canon continuities where Pa Kent is alive and has been alive for years even as Superman does his thing in Metropolis, and Clark goes back to Smallville to visit his folks, get their help integrating Kara or Chris, and so on - but ultimately in any continuity where Pa Kent is alive, he's going to die of a heart attack sooner or later, and for all his powers, for all that Superman is a physical god, Superman can't save him.

It's the most important thing that happens to Superman, because failing to save John Kent teaches Clark the most important lesson of his life: that Superman CAN'T save everyone. There was nothing Superman could have done. It teaches humility and perspective.

(And it's part of why Man of Steel is so godawful...the tornado just does not work for that lesson's purpose)

>>51253976
We'd turn him into a lawn chair. Serves the tosser right.

>>51253980
>Superman is a Marysue
Ah thanks for clearing that up

>>51254011

I concur.

>>51253980
>failing to save John Kent teaches Clark the most important lesson of his life: that Superman CAN'T save everyone
That's supposed to be a moral lesson now? Wow. Just... wow. This is Captain Obviousness level of obvious and shallow of the moral lesson.

>>51253591
That reminds me. Having enough points in spirit and a familiar would give you effectively infinite mana right? Unless there is a limit for how often you can channel essence into your pets.

>>51254030
Please explain what you think a Marysue is.

>>51253965
Again, you're still missing the fundamental point: it's not what they're doing, it's the way they're doing it.

It's one thing to use Sorcery to make a tree grow via Consensus-approved magic. It's quite another thing to tell REALITY ITSELF to shut the fuck up and grow a damn tree.

It's the difference between making money by working a 9 to 5, and making money by robbing a bank. Either method can net you money if you succeed at them. One of these methods, however, might end up with you shot and bleeding out.

To modify the metaphor somewhat:
- Sleepers are people who walk into a store, pick out the items they like, buy them at the cash register, and walk out, without thinking too much about any of this.
- Sorcerers are people who cut out coupons, ask for coupons while in the store, hunt for deals, complain loudly about prices to get a discount, be super-nice to get a discount. All of it's perfectly legal, though.
- The Technocracy are store security, who like the first group of customers, and are frustrated by the second group but unfortunately there's not much they can do about it. They're looking for a way, though.
- Mages are those people on tumblr who think that shoplifting is an inalienable right. They steal stuff from a store and, when caught, have the audacity to claim that they're doing nothing wrong by shoplifting, that EVERYONE should shoplift. In fact, they believe so strongly about it that they're willing to KILL people over this idea, including and especially store security. And if bystanders get hurt in the process, who cares? AT LEAST THEY'LL GET THEIR FIVE-FINGERED DISCOUNT!! And if they themselves are killed in the process of doing this? THEN THEY ARE GLORIOUS MARTYRS FOR THE DAY WHEN EVERYONE WILL PRACTICE THEIR RIGHT TO ROB STORES ARE GUNPOINT AND SHOOT ANYONE WHO DISAGREES!

Mages are terrible people.

>>51253306
pssst, you're confusing a roleplay game with real life again. It is astounding how many of you have that problem.

>>51253307
Yes, and immediately discarded it for something that worked for my group.

You should all be doing the same for White Wolf / Onyx Path products, before you disappear in a haze of dickeggs.

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>>51253902
>>51253945
>>51254088
>Consensus-approved magic

I don't believe you know of what you're talking about. Sorcerers don't experience Paradox because their magic isn't powerful to pull at the Tapestry, so it just fails, it doesn't implode. It has nothing to do with their magic being more approved by the Consensus.

Also Mages are god-tier and the rightful rulers of the world fight me irl Taftani for LIFE.

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>>51254080
Its more fun seeing you try explaining away Sun God Superman.

>>51254144
I don't care about Superman. I just want to know what you think a Marysue is.

>>51253438
Well "I believe" you can lick my balls.

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>>51254047
>This is Captain Obviousness level of obvious and shallow of the moral lesson.

Keep in mind that you're saying this as a normal human being, not someone who can see atoms, fly many times the speed of light, vaporize oceans, and crush mountains. This in addition to hearing, everywhere, all the time, people shouting "save me!" and knowing that, maybe, if you wanted to, you COULD. Or you certainly could...maybe...re-organize the world's governments and society so that it could happen. Maybe things would be better if a physical god was in charge, right? Then you COULD save everyone. Right?

Learning that you can't, no matter how hard you try, because some things are beyond your control, is a rather profound lesson when viewed from that perspective. It's the lesson that cemented (not created, but was rather the final proof of) Superman's belief that no, he wouldn't be better as dictator of the world.

>>51254144
Who cares about Superman? Everyone knows Marvel is better than DC.

>>51254124
Beast will never be a part of my World of Darkness, just like how the existence of Exarchs will never be definitely proved in my World of Darkness even though they do exist

>>51253549
>Mages are just as much part of human culture as those monsters (perhaps even more)

Really? I must have missed the chapter on the Sons of Ether in Mother Goose.

>>51254114
>It's just a game argument

Just applying the literal metaphysics of the game to the story it's trying to tell. excursive those brain muscles elsewise you'll become another sheeple

>>51254161
>Superman has to overcome Hubris
Hey we aren't getting so far off topic after all.

>>51254167
>>51253549
Actually they do, its just their static powers trigger Paradox in very precise constant ways. Why do you think sunlight hurts vampires?

Or at least, thats the in-story theory of several mages in a sourcebook I read once. That the weaknesses of other factions have to do with Paradox effecting them.

>>51254167
>never heard of Frankenstein or Mad Science

>>51253612
It was the early days of Paradox. Mages called it "The Scourge" and the House of Tremere panicked and over-reacted, partly because their old spells no longer had as much bang, partly because now people hemorrhaged out of their eyes when they threw fireballs. Remember, Tremere and his posse were Order of Hermes, their motto is "go vulgar or go home".

You'd know this if you spent five minutes reading the WW Wiki or a fucking sourcebook

>>51253612
Also, Immortality in Mage takes Life 9.

Versus a pint of blood.

Hmmmmm.... centuries perfecting the art without getting blown up, or a pint of blood.... which one is easier.... hmmmm.... gosh, this is so HARD!

>>51254190
>>51253612
Not only this, but he didn't even let himself get bitten. He distilled a potion that was supposed to give him and his apprentices all the benefits of vampirism without any of the drawbacks [like getting your Avatar shredded].

Needless to say, it failed. Now as to why he didn't test this potion on someone else before using it, THAT can be attributed to retardation. Or hubris.

>>51254190

Tremere was said to be rather weak among the other masters. He was also an utter dumbass.

>>51253798
God left after Adam and Eve made applesauce, never to return. This is verified in Revelations of the Dark Mother as well as Demon the Fallen. You'd know this if you spent five minutes reading the WW Wiki or a fucking sourcebook

>>51254162
False dichotomy. You can like both.

>>51254176
Superman's stories are rarely about whether he has the physical capacity to overcome a problem. They're about a god who was raised as a human trying to reconcile his essentially divine power and the responsibility that comes with it - the power to not just save people, but to actually help guide people into building a better world and being better people - with his desire to live a normal human life on the farm or as a reporter, loving his wife and raising his son, but while STILL being a good person and trying to make the world a better place.

Basically Superman's best stories are set to "What if God Was One of Us?"

>>51254199
>centuries perfecting the art without getting blown up, or a pint of blood. which one is easier

Ascension which is what you should be working towards instead of turning every fucking vampire in the county into a lawn chair.

>>51254199
I would really rather die than be a WoD vampire. No joke.

>>51254167
>missed the chapter on the Sons of Ether in Mother Goose

The *really* scary lost chapters of all the fairy tales and nursery rhymes are in the library at the chantry. You should take a look one day, it will blow your mind. Those stupid sleepers really have no idea.

>>51254199

Life 9 isn't immortality. It's TRUE immortality. It explicitly states that only another god/Celestine can kill you. Nothing can end you. Literally. Not even antediluvians.

There are also a crap ton of mages who are immortal. Medea is 2000 years old. Porthos and Voormas are 500ish. The Unnamed might be older than Cain.

>>51254208
Never heard of Goratrix? I'm starting to think you can't trust backstabbing wizard vampire

>>51254225
>turning every fucking vampire in the county into a lawn chair

Some mages are just humanitarians.

>>51254227
You can get used to it. Liking it on the other hand is purely optional thou

>>51254199
There are other ways of being immortal. It's one of the many reasons cited when it comes to Tremere's relatively low intelligence.

>>51251592
how is all this loli?

http://bennewmanart.blogspot.ca/

>>51253965
>>part of the Consensus belief is "God helps those who help themselves"
>Not really.

"Indeed Allah will not change the conditions of a population until they change what is in themselves." -- Qur'an 13:11

Pretty black and white from where I'm sitting, pal.

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>>51254249
Yeah, but to be fair we'd be a lot better off without half or at least a third of the other supernatural splats running around. Time to open up a furniture store

>>51254241
>The Unnamed might be older than Cain.

Not if he's human he isn't, unless time travel is involved. There are only two human beings older than Cain: Adam and Eve. Maybe Lilith.

Now, if he's not human, then sure. Or if time travel is involved. But otherwise, Cain is the third human being (our fourth, if Lilith is included), and since the World of Darkness allows for evolution and the real passage of time (i.e., there really were dinosaurs 65 million years ago), then Cain is roughly 200,000 years old. Or maybe "just" 50,000 if we only include anatomically modern homo sapiens, and not simply the first known homo sapiens.

Also, I don't think any of those guys you mentioned could defeat Caine, the vampire. Because I don't know what their stats are, or how powerful they are, but Caine does have officially-published combat stats:

You Lose.

No exceptions, expansions, explanations. Doesn't matter what you have. Just, You Lose. End of discussion.

>>51253965
>Consensus doesn't care about inner nature of the working - otherwise Technocracy shit wouldn't fly.

It increasingly doesn't. Both Revised Core and Guide to the Technocracy state that hypertech toys fail outside of strict lab conditions. You'd know that if you spend five minutes reading the WW Wiki or a fucking sourcebook

>>51254278
Someone needs to add fangs to a lawn chair and use it for the OP picture in the next thread.

>>51254278
A good reason why the OWoD had terrible metaplot. There's no reason to suggest that other supernaturals exist when the Technocracy rules the world.

>>51254286
Forced Meme is Forced

>>51253965
>Sorcery could be a Consensus-approved magic only if there existed, well, consensus about how does it work. There isn't one.

But there is, fairy stories and the like. QED

>>51253976
What if God Smoked Cannabis?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-P6SQbhgg0

>>51254302
>I have no idea how the Consensus works: the post

You'd know that if you spend five minutes reading the WW Wiki or a fucking sourcebook

>>51254295
but you don't know the conspiracy BEHIND the conspiracy! Friend computer has taken over the Technocracy while also being co opted by Neifandi, while also getting flake from the higher ups Null threat. And I think there are some furries or something in there. Yeah this is turning into a confused meta mess

>>51253980
In the old Lewis and Clark series, Luthor hammered the point home by literally killing people at multiple points across Metropolis at the exact same second, threatening to continue unless Superman retired. In the end, his parents told Clark the same thing; that you can't save everyone, but the point is that you do something, you try to make a difference.

>>51254312
>lotus flowers

>>51254283
The unnamed would pick Cain up and spank his ass, sorry. Read Masters of the Art.

>>51254329
Or as Amazing Spider-Man put it, "If you have the ability to do good, then you have the moral responsibility to."

Best phrasing of the "with great power" line, in my opinion.

>>51254329
Seems like the thing to do there would be to kill Luthor.

>>51254338
I'd rather not, but I'll admit to an intense curiosity as to what beats "You Lose", and what The Unnamed plans to do when struck by the Sevenfold Curse even if he does manage to land a blow, let alone kill him.

(Gehenna added that Caine has the sevenfold curse mentioned in the Bible: whomsoever striketh Caine shall be struck by God seven times, and whomsoever killeth Caine, shall himself be killed seven times (i.e., seven times more painfully)).

>>51254144
>I know exactly what a Mary Sue is. I just want to make sure you know what a Mary Sue is, so... uh.... why don't YOU tell me what a Mary Sue is and I'll tell you whether, um, whether.... whether you're right.

Your ignorance isn't cute, fuckwit.

A Mary Sue, originally, was a homebrew Star Trek original series character that was clearly a personal avatar for the writer's ego. For some bizarre reason, the Cadet in question was usually named "Mary Sue". They were always the youngest to ever be in Starfleet Academy, the best and brightest, everyone loved them, they have awesome adventures that are all about them but they struggle against a world that can't accept how amazing and beautiful and intelligent they are, so Mary Sue sacrifices herself to save The Enterprise and only when she is dead do people really appreciate how truly wonderful she is.

A metaphor for a solar diety != a Mary Sue

>>51254351
"With great power there must also come great responsibility" is the original line and by far the best, imo.

>>51254365
Cast Nine Lives spell before ripping his heart out? I mean he may kill me once, and his death curse will eat 7 of my 9 re spawns, but that nets a cool one life to finish the boss fight with

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Could somebody put a title on this?

>>51254283

We're talking sphere 9-10 abilities here. Forces 9 can end the entire Tellurian. Mind 9 is the instant win ability that turns every mind in existence into a single mind. Entropy 9 is complete control over destiny. The Unnamed has Entropy 10.

Cain can't tank beings that can hurl the universe at him.

>>51254338

A bit of an exaggeration but appropriate nonetheless.

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>>51254367
Slightly off on your definition. You're right that the term originates with Star Trek fanfictions, published in fan magazines from the 70s, and what a Mary Sue is. However, the original Star Trek examples had different names, as the author chose.

The original Ensign Mary Sue was in fact a PARODY of such characters, from a fanfiction parody only a few paragraphs lone, however the parody was so on-the-nose accurate, and displayed the symptoms of the bad characters so perfectly, that "Mary Sue" became the term used to refer to all of them.

Full original Mary Sue fanfiction, "A Trekkies Tale", can be found in the pic.

>>51254225
>turning every fucking vampire in the county into a lawn chair.


Stop telling me what to do with the sourcebooks I paid actual real money for, Brucatto. I'm turning the entire crowd in Elysium into fucking garden gnomes, and neither you nor that damnable Agent Smith can stop me!

>>51254367
u mad bro just think WWSD

>>51254395
Perfect. slap the title card on top and we're done

>>51254365

I keep replying to these things.

Cain's "You Lose" sheet only relates to vampires. It was also a joke. It's a very questionable character sheet.

Masters of the Art suggests exemplars have caused the big bang. Either through Prime 9 or Forces 9. Life 9 also prevents Cain from doing any harm to the archmage. It explicitly states that only another god can harm him.

Can we stop discussions like these please?

>>51254400
but that would require giving you a working system with measurable success and difficulties; when really he's just That GM that will artificially increase the difficult of the next ten encounters if you order Dominoes Pizza

>>51254383
>Cast Nine Lives spell before ripping his heart out?

Well, yeah, but you still haven't overcome the "You Lose" part.

>>51254396
Gehenna provided that the Antediluvians had "Discipline 10" abilties, with "10" being simply "plot device". Anything you can relate to the Discipline, the Antediluvian can do.

Caine is two steps more powerful then the Antediluvians, and is not less than 50,000 years old or so; V20 states that a Vampire should have a number of Discipline dots equal to the square root of its age, which in Caine's case would be not less than 223. At the least he can be expected to have the 8 core Disciplines at 10 (if not higher - it would be reasonable for him to be able to hit 12 based on the Discipline progression) and still have enough dots left over to fill in literally most if not all the remaining major Clan Disciplines in Vampire, including having 5 dots in several Thaumaturgy and Necromancy paths.

Animalism 10, he can reduce anything to a slavering beast.
Auspex 10, he can see anything.
Celerity 10, he can dodge anything.
Fortitude 10, he can soak anything.
Potence 10, he can punch apart anything physical
Dementation 10, he can erase anything's mind
Domination 10, he can dominate anything's mind
Obfuscate 10, he can become absolutely undetectable

And so on.

And that STILL doesn't deal with "You Lose".

>>51254431
No because we have stat blocks and a character sheet where's unnamed's character sheet? Don't you know Anon Samuel Height is the only man who can kill all Mages

>>51254455
Question Can both Lose? At that point we just need a martyr will to take the blow

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ITT: Reasons why old world of darkness is Meta Blood Gods Trash

>>51254455

Are you really trying to pit planetary threats against universal ones? It's only by using "plot device" that you have any argument at all. Literally.

10 dot disciplines are already defined. And I'm not impressed. 9 dot spheres are already beyond them. For example: Ennoia can move tectonic plates at 10 dots by melding into the earths core. A forces 7 mage doesn't need to meld into the earths core at all, and can simply stick his staff into the ocean and move them.

At Forces 9 the archmage can turn off gravity in the entire universe. Causing every star to go supernova. This is literally was ""Alter Universal Forces"" does. You're going to pit Antediluvians against the universe itself? Good luck with that.

By the way. I mentioned this earlier. Mind 9 turns every mind in the universe into a single mind. That's an instant win.

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>>51254466
I suppose no one said that Caine must win, just that whoever fighting him will lose. One of the Gehenna scenarios actually dealt with Lilith trying to get a sacrificial martyr to kill Caine for her - Malakai, Malkav's twin sister and Apostate Antediluvian (an Antediluvian who never sired a clan and who decided to side with Lilith against Caine), who was also affected with insanity like Malkav but in a way that warped reality; it basically combined Dementation and Chimerstry and was referred to as Phantasm. And she had it out to 10.

For the record, if we abandon the idea that Caine should not have actual stats, this is what Caine's stats could reasonably look like.

>>51254457
The Unnamed has stats on the wiki you dumbshit

This is as riveting and meaningful as Star Wars vs WH40k vs One Magma vs Hovercraft full of eels discussions

>>51254522
The only difference is that mages are clearly winning this argument. How can you even remotely think otherwise?

>>51254522
In my defense, it's 5 AM where I am.

Must sleep...

Anyway, I'm at least right that The Unnamed isn't older than Caine, unless he did some time travel. He was once explicitly human, and he's not Adam or Eve, which means he cannot be older than the Third Mortal.

>>51254399
>Rigel XXXVII

Fucking lost it

>>51254544
I don't really care who wins this cripple fight.

I would rather read people character/npc/campaign ideas or whatever but guess we can't have nice things.

>>51254485
>By the way. I mentioned this earlier. Mind 9 turns every mind in the universe into a single mind. That's an instant win.
So, why hasn't this happened yet? This seems like it would fix this whole "people have a different opinion on how reality should function than me, and that makes me sad" problem for whichever wizard casts it.

>>51254544
No one wins against You Lose. I don't care what your sphere rank in whatever is. It's not better than You Lose.

The best The Unnamed could hope to do is draw, but that starts a semantics argument vis-a-vis whether getting a draw counts as "losing".

>>51254581
Don't bother asking questions like why a life/mind Mage hasn't set up shop making people's waifus real. White Wolf has never been that creative when it comes to what NPCs are doing with their powers.

>>51254577

This is all very silly, I agree. I just find it very curious when vampire fans are this biased.

>>51254586

So you're going to cling on to the only thing that even remotely supports your argument of Cain being the absolute best? Are you that afraid of mages being able to kill the original vampire? I don't understand vampire fans sometimes.

I gave you a list of powers exceeding the disciplines. If you can't accept them for what they are, then we're done here.

Besides everyone knows that the way to kill Cain is the Stop Hitting Yourself Gambit. Any injury inflicted on Cain is reflected sevenfold on the person who inflicted it which is also Cain so you build up a quickly accelerating feedback loop of Cain injuring himself until he's a pile of mush.

>>51249483
But a meteor hitting a city is completely natural despite being unlikely. How do you think we one-shoted that ancient vampire near Chelyabinsk?

>>51254619

People keep repeating the seven-fold god defense for Cain when it's really fucking easy for an archmage to work around that.

>>51251409
Created by a mage to run his shit

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What happens when you accidentally create someone with a Mary Sue backstory and the game has already started?

So, I basically made a female character for the first time. Being a female character, I didn't want her to be old so I made her a random age 20-30, 23. Then I suddenly decided that I wanted her to be a scientist, so I based her on a Touhou character and said boom-- physics. So easy-- a 23 year old physics student working on her PhD. So I made a character sheet for that and realized that I no idea where to put my freebie points, so I tossed 5 in fame, 5 in allies, 4 in resources, 2 in influence and I realized that I had to find a way to explain that. So it was getting late at night, and I decided, "Uhh, yeah, she graduated with a PhD in physics really young and published a bunch of journals that turned her into a worldwide sensation and modern-day Einstein". So now I'm playing a 23 year old model(4 dots in appearance) Einstein.

I usually run characters with 1 intelligence because I'm not the sharpest crayon in the box of knives. I'm confident I can roleplay the character well with effort and a lot of notetaking, but just reading the backstory makes me embarrassed. How do I not implode on my own failure to write a decent character in this Hunter's Hunted game with most likely a horror-mystery mood?

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>>51254678

>so I tossed 5 in fame

nigga

>>51254614
Because for some reason WoD fans adore the idea of equality when it doesn't exist. Nor will it ever exist. Mages won this argument as far as I'm concerned.

So....Do you guys use VII/Belials Brood/Bale Hounds/Banishers/Scelesti in your games? Or do you focus more of the baseline conflict like seers-pentacle or forsaken-pure/spirits?

If so do you use them as a more of a looming threat or more in your face no nonsense.

>>51254707

>mage supremacy