This nigga

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here's a blurry-ass bic of his miniature

>>51196727
Isnt he the Veilwalker harlequin?.

>>51196757
does he look like a fucking harlequin to you?

>>51196727
Cawl?

>>51196814
belisarius cawl

>>51196727
>-a pre-fall eldar hero (possibly Eldanesh

Eldanesh was murdered by a god about 60 million years ago.

>>51196899
what if it was a ruse?

>>51196914
Then I feel bad for Khaine who had to a hand constantly dripping blood for no reason.

>>51196727
>but probably not Yriel since he doesn't have a lance
He IS yriel, we know he's half dark eldar half craftworlder and he's being used by the arlequin veilwalker to unite the eldar

>>51196899
Ulthanesh then?

Who ever he is, he's a stone cold motherfucker.

Standing around like it's cool with that many BT's around. You know every one of them is just itching to murderfuck him with their swords.

>>51196727

Of those three I would go with a corsair, they are proud bastards with a taste for swag. Exodites are willing to dispense with their space elf Amish bullshit when it comes to war, but I have a hard time believing an exodite would haul his ass to Cadia. I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar heroes appearing just now - some might have disappeared into the webway and have since been pulling heroic appearances a la the Legion of the Damned, but again, I've never heard stuff like that mentioned.

I have heard the Veilwalker was involved in that stuff, maybe s/he is some eldar hero affiliated with the harlequin who still carries some proper eldar armor?

>>51199551
wrong
-Yriel always wields the Spear of Twilight. Not a pair of swords
-the Eldritch Raiders' colors are dark blue and yellow/black stripes. Not red and turquoise.

Whoever it is it's fucking cool looking.

It's Illic Nightspear in disguise.

>>51200051
the Veilwalker is a harlequin and all harlequins wear a mask
>I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar heroes appearing just now
it's the Time of Ending, innit? Sounds like a pretty appropriate time for mythical heroes to pop up.
If Belisarius Calw (who's been around for 10 000 years) has never heard of an eldar with that kind of armor then surely he's not your average corsair/exodite asshole.

>>51196727
It looks like he has two big ol' warpvanes sticking out of the back of his armor. It could be Eldanesh - risen from the dead as a wraith in his old armor.

>>51196727
Maybe he's Drazhar/Arhra? He's got the two swords thing going on and the back things fit.

>>51197102
>>51196899
>>51199705
Guys.

Remember how aspect warriors work?

They put on the armor of another aspect warrior and get all his memories.

What if some eldars found the armor of Eldanesh, and got one of their boys to wear it?
If it works the same way aspect armors do, then his personality would be effectively replaced with the remnant of Eldanesh's.

But that's just a theory
a gay theory

>>51200391
Eh, not really. He doesn't have the characteristic bits of the incubi apart from the wing-blades (and those aren't unique to incubi)
also let's not forget that Arhra IS A CHAOS ELDAR.
WHY WOULD A CHAOS ELDAR HELP THE IMPERIUM STOP CHAOS?
>>51200384
looks more like trophy blades than like warpvanes
also the armors of dead eldar warriors can be worn by another dude to effectively resurrect him, no need for wraith bullshit

>>51196757
For one, Veilwalker has a vagina. He is a she.

Two, she wears a mirror mask that reflects the face of the person who is talking to her or ripples and transforms into the face of somebody else.

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>>51200401
I dunno, the helmet with the t-shaped visor.

I agree it's a stretch, but it's about all there is that fits imo.

>>51200414
Ahra rejected Chaos in the end before he died or so his followers claim.

>>51199551
Yriel has a bionic pirate eyepatch.
that's where the emblem of the Eldritch Raiders comes from.

>>51200414
It's deep cover.

>>51200423
that's lame
and extremely unlikely

>>51200421
It's just the helmet of an average Kabalite warrior.
In fact it's closer to a Kabalite helmet than to an Incubus helmet since it doesn't have horns, and has a crescent moon instead.

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Who else?

loving that fluffy cape

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>>51200453
Illic, stop wearing Motoko's outfits you big drag queen!

Yriel is a descendent of Ulthanash isn't he?

Wouldn't he be buttmad as fuck if Eldanesh came back from the dead?

>>51200480
It's the end times dawg, sometimes you just gotta eat your buttrage and kill some spikey boyz.

>>51200480
>The Path of the Eldar ain't free. The House of Ulthanash gotta be litterd with the soulstones of autarchs. Eldanesh aka "Shilldanesh" is not my sire. he is khaine's enemy and probably dark eldar as well :DD SOULSTONES and wraiths not aspects and Vaul's blades ok. praise khaine.

>>51200375

Yeah, if the Veilwalker is confirmed to be a harlequin and not just someone who works with them, it's rather unlikely.

I still doubt that it would be some pre-fall mystical figure, though.And yes, it's definitely not just some regular Joe Eldar, but it could be some new character GW has not detailed yet.

>>51200543
Veilwalker is a chick with a harlequin mask

Who knows, maybe it's Malekith.

>>51196727
>both craftworlder armor and dark eldar armor

Aspect and Incubi armour specifically. It's fucking Arhra. How is this any mystery? There's only one character with a tie to both Aspects and Incubi.

>>51200051

>I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar heroes appearing just now

You've never heard of Phoenix Lords before? They're kinda fundamental to Craftworld society as well as the Rhana Dandra.

>>51200689
>You've never heard of Phoenix Lords before?

They are not Pre-Fall. They are formed from a group of Fall survivors.

>>51200700
>They are not Pre-Fall.

Learn the basics of the lore.

>People saying it's Eldanesh
>People not recognizing Incubi armour
>People not knowing who Sylandri Veilwalker is
>People not knowing what Yriel looks like
>People saying Phoenix Lords didn't pre-exist the fall

No matter what, /tg/ will always be bad at xenos lore. Always.

>>51200712
I have, you idiot. I read Gav's "Hand of Asuryan". Asurman was a Fall survivor so was Jain Zar who was his first student. He found the rest and trained them.

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>>51200718
You need to die screaming in pain for acting smug while being clueless.

Asurman in his mortal life was a fuccboi during the Fall. After the Fall happened he transformed himself into Asurman by mediating in Asuryan's temple amidst the ruins of his home world.

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>>51196899
More than once, if you put the different Eldar myths together though whether you're supposed to is another matter. Khaine started the War in Heaven when he killed Eldanesh, but at the climax of the war, after Khaine defeated Vaul and claimed Anaris, Faolchú retrieved the sword and delivered it to Eldanesh to fight Khaine with.

(Of course, that can be explained with pre-Fall reincarnation for those who want to rationalise it in such a way.)

>>51199964
They're like that.

>Slau Dha stepped forward to face Alpharius. The Astartes followed him with their weapons, but he ignored the threat.

>‘Well?’ he asked, in halting, thickly accented Low Gothic. ‘What is your response, mon-keigh? Do you have the strength to make this choice, or are you just as weak and self-serving as the rest of your vermin species?’

>>51200737

The book that gives a detailed account of Asurmen living pre-fall? The book that has him living before everything goes wrong? The book that has him see the rise of pleasure cults? And yet you're saying he's NOT prefall? You're an idiot.

>>51200767
Asurman as a person lived before the fall. Asurman as a Pheonix Lord didn't.

>>51200767
He pretty clearly said the the Phoenix Lords were not pre-fall, not that the people who would become Phoenix Lords were not pre-fall.

>>51200767
HE WAS NOT ASURMAN back then, you idiot. He was a random pleasure seeking fuccboi with no real combat experience.

Asurman is what he became AFTER his medoidation in Asuryan's temple AFTER the fall. You fuck.

>>51200767
You don't know anything about Eldar lore. Go away.

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>>51200780
>>51200776
>>51200784
>>51200788
>>>51200753

>Asurmen doesn't count as pre-fall because that was his first life

Way to shift goalposts. Their first lives count and are the bedrock of who they are. If you bothered to read the basic fluff you'd know PLs never change identity no matter how many lives join their spirit pool.

>>51200825
>PLs never change identity no matter how many lives join their spirit pool
But that's completely irrelevant to what we're saying.

Asurmen and all the other lords aren't pre-Fall heroes because they weren't heroes before the fall, and the guy you were arguing with clearly acknowledged their presence before the Fall, referring to them as Fall survivors right here >>51200700

>>51200825
You're the one shifting the goal posts. The original post clearly said "They are not Pre-Fall. They are formed from a group of Fall survivors." He's not talking about the people, he's talking about the titles and organization. None of that existed pre-Fall.

>>51200825
Look at the goalshifting.

The PL and their system did not exist back then. They were entirely different persons. More so in the case of Asurman who had a large portion of what he was removed and sealed within his ship.

>>51196727

New eldar shrine when

>>51196727
that fucker doesn't look like an incubus

he looks like a random kabalite warrior with two trophy blades

in fact his helmet looks like one of those in the kabalite warrior sprue

>>51200843
>But that's completely irrelevant to what we're saying.

You argued that he didn't exist pre-fall and that he Asurmen didn't exist until post-fall. I've demonstrated the first identity is the dominant identity.

>They were entirely different persons

Read the codex sample already provided that outright contradicts you.

>>51200844

>They are formed from a group of Fall survivors

How does one survive the fall without existing before it. You're splitting hairs like a madman.

>>51200855

>that fucker doesn't look like an incubus

/tg/ please... Just look at an incubus and look at him. Two obvious design features shared.

>>51200873
This has got to be bait at this point.

>>51200873
>You argued that he didn't exist pre-fall and that he Asurmen didn't exist until post-fall. I've demonstrated the first identity is the dominant identity.

Asurman persona, his system and teachins that he invented, and everything related to him did not exist prefall.

And again, the guy who would become Asurman mutilated his personality and soul becoming a different person.

Read the novel, it BTFO.

>>51200884
Eldarfags are and were always cancerous.

For example, this >>51200755 guy insists that necrodermis is not living metal

>>51200884

>Asurmen was completely different!
>Here's lore that says his 'mind is forever unchanged, driven for eternity by the dominant personality'
>T-that's b-bait!

Great contribution!

>>51200890

>everything related to him did not exist prefall.

Except his first, dominant identity and all the pre-fall PL weaponry.

>>51196727
Who is that? I mean, is this some fluff dropped in wd, or what?

>>51200873
>You argued that he didn't exist pre-fall and that he Asurmen didn't exist until post-fall. I've demonstrated the first identity is the dominant identity.
These two identities (which weren't even what I was arguing) are Iliathin and Asurmen, not Asurmen and all the Asurmens after, still making it completely irrelevant.

>Read the codex sample already provided that outright contradicts you.
Literally where does it say that Phoenix Lords existed before the Fall. Go ahead and highlight it.

If we followed your guidelines for what a pre and post fall hero is, then a WW2 vet born in 1916 also counts as a WW1 vet because they were alive during WW1, except they don't, because that's a complete failure of reasoning.

>>51200881
ONE
and not even an obvious one.
Eldar big bosses often have two banners, or wings or warpvanes in the back
dark eldar voivods often have at least one trophy blade in the back

it's not an obvious indication that he may be related to the incubi.

>>51200911
>Except his first, dominant identity and all the pre-fall PL weaponry.

Nope, his personality splintered. Take it like his it's like the situation with the Unnamed Namekian. Asuryan split his soul in half. One which is good which is Asuryan as we know him now (Kami). Two, the guy who is sealed inside Asuryan's ship who represents the darkness within the guy (Piccolo).

Two separate entities emerged from the same person.

>all the pre-fall PL weaponry.

No, Asuryan and Jain Zar left their home world with a pack of soulstones and IIRC some swords. They were survivors dressed in rags by that point.

>>51200931
>dark eldar voivods
Slav detected

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>>51200920

This is kinda sad. I've posted it right before your eyes, but you're doing everything you can to avoid the fact the first personality is the dominant one and remains unchanged. There is so much mental gymnastics going on... I'll leave you with more pre-fall Asurmen shenanigans.

>>51200937
oh yeah they're called archons in britbongland
whatever

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>>51200936

Asurmen created Stormlance post-fall so that has fuck all to do with anything. It says right in his codex entry his first personality is dominant and all you're interpretive bullshit doesn't change that.

>No, Asuryan and Jain Zar left their home world with a pack of soulstones and IIRC some swords. They were survivors dressed in rags by that point.

More stuff easily refuted by the codex.

>>51200959
I think he's quoting the new book, but I haven't read it so I wouldn't know.

This seems like a case of new lore superseding old lore.

>>51200938
That's a legend and the Eldar own codex says that Eldar legends are contradictory and allegorical.

Even the Wotdm Maugan Ra says that legends surrounding him are all over the place and that they change wildly with each telling.

But you know what beats legends and hearsay? Things spoken from the character himself.

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>>51200963

>Novels superseding codex

No one gives a fuck about BL.

>>51200938
Here, I'll link my premise to you again so you can actually dispute it:

>>51200843
>Asurmen and all the other lords aren't pre-Fall heroes

That's it. I don't care about autismal disputes about personality or whatever else, I'm saying that Asurmen isn't a pre-Fall Eldar hero because he only became a hero after the Fall, (or during depending on whether you define Fall as the exact moment of birth or as all the events that happened shortly afterwards).

>>51200971
>But you know what beats legends and hearsay? Things spoken from the character himself.

You mean like where he talks about him doing stuff pre-fall?

>>51200973
Well, given everything that's happening it seems like a new Eldar Codex is probably in the works. It'll clear things up and we'll see which canon it decides to go with.

>>51200911

You and him are arguing the same thing, but different perspectives...

Right, so, I was born in the 80s. Today, I murder your entire family. Is it a 21st, or 20th century crime?

Obviously, its 21st, me having been born in the 20th century has absolutely no relevance to that specific context.

Asurmen existed before the Fall, but he was not a phoenix lord, he was the man who would become one later.

Saying that there are no prefall shrines, is correct, they were built, their roles created, after the fall, regardless of Asurmen being pre-fall.

>>51200975
>That's it

Yeah, and it's demonstrably wrong as we have them remembering their lives before the fall. You couldn't just say "soz, I'm wrong" and tried to squirm around the fact by arguing the original personality doesn't count. Then you got BTFO when it was pointed out the original personality is the most important. So suck my dick buddy.

>>51200959
>entry his first personality is dominant

Which was created post-fall by splitting the originally personality into two making Asuryan not the same person he was before.

>More stuff easily refuted by the codex.

Nope, these either scavenged after the fall or created later.

>>51200993

>regardless of Asurmen being pre-fall.

That right there was the entire argument though.

>>51200998
were their lives before the fall heroic?
If not, they are NOT pre-fall heroes

that's all

>>51200998
You're still not paying attention to what he's trying to argue.

He certainly did stuff before the Fall, because he was alive then, but he didn't christen himself as a Pheonix Lord until after the Fall. He was kind of a random jamoke before the Fall too, if people quoting the book are to be believed.

>>51200979
As a different character who has nothing to do with fighting or aspect warriors. P-Lords as they are post-Fall did not exist.

>>51201003
No, the argument is whether or not the phoenix lords were already badass armored dudes before the fall or not.

>>51196727
He's an incubus incubii need to kill an aspect warrior and incorporate it's armour into the suit

>>51200963

What new book?

>>51200998
>we have them remembering their lives before the fall
They lived before the Fall but only became heroes after the Fall. They are post-Fall heroes. They were not heroes pre-Fall, only post.

>arguing the original personality doesn't count
I'm not even arguing around personalities here anon, this is simply a strawman.

>Then you got BTFO when it was pointed out the original personality is the most important
See above

I'm still waiting for you to present some sort of counter-point here. Do you have an example of these people being heroes before the fall?

>>51201020

You have it all wrong

Incubi need to incorporate the SHATTERED SOULSTONE of an aspect warrior into their suit.

a soulstone is normally worn over the heart or on a harness. Either way it's one big soulstone

this guy here has plenty of gems, but they don't look like soulstones.

>>51201002

>Which was created post-fall

Gee, now you're just outright lying and trying to pretend his first life wasn't pre-fall. The personality is never shown "splitting" in the scene in Asuryan's shrine. He simply prays and meditates and comes out stronger. You're just making shit up now.

>>51201017

No, it was "are PLs pre-fall". Read the thread.

>>51201003

Nah, no one here, well, aside from the ones going on about the soul splinter/meld technically, is saying he isn't prefall, is well established he was alive before the Fall.

But shrines, aspect warriors, PL's, the tactics and roles used, even if the weapons existed before (irrelevant), are all post-Fall.

its a bit like saying "Templar Knights exist since the bronze age because back then there were swords, shields, and horses", ignoring that the weaponry is not what made a templar knight, but the philosophy, creed, traditions, tactics.

>>51201041
Nope, his first life was a fuccboi was prefall.

But at some point Asuryan split his personality and threw the darker part of it in his ship making "the dominant personality" nothing like what came before it.

>>51201049
No, you read the thread.

>I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar heroes appearing just now

The emphasis on the hero bit. Were they heroes before the Fall? If not, then they are not pre-Fall Heroes.

>>51201049
It was brought up in relation to the possibility of Arhra wearing a pre-fall armor.

Therefore, the implicit, relevant question, is "DID THE PHOENIX LORDS ALREADY WEAR A BADASS SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE ARMOR BEFORE THE FALL?"
You know, an armor that looks even more ancient than what craftworlders and dark eldars wear, but similar to both.

Like the dude this thread is about.

>>51201061
Ad that's the point we are trying to reach and hammer into the Eldarfags head.

There are Admech, custodes, perhaps marine characters, and Orks with more combat experience than the PLs.

Setting-wise, the PL and aspect shrines are fairly young.

>>51201061
actually the only thing that's relevant to this thread is the armor and weaponry.

Why would there even be heroes pre-Fall? Wasn't the entire army made up of super-drones and automated systems and basically all Eldar spent every day fucking for literally millions of years?

>>51201091
IIRC.

In the Ultramarine plague series, a flashback shows a group of pre-Fall Eldar adventurers stopping a Nurglite outbreak. They count as heroes.

>>51201091
Because eldars weren't always lazy fucks with tons of robot slaves.

Once upon a time they were a powerful race of real badasses who fought gods and stuff.

We're talking ANCIENT heroes here

>>51201037

>They lived before the Fall but only became heroes after the Fall. They are post-Fall heroes. They were not heroes pre-Fall, only post.

This is complete goal post shifting. The original point of dispute was the claim "They are not Pre-Fall" despite existing and acting Pre-fall and being defined by surviving the Fall.

By your argument there are no pre-fall Eldar characters, because pre-fall was a time of peace and galactic dominance. No one was arguing if they were "heroes" during the fall. It was an argument if they were pre-fall at all, and some faggot couldn't admit defeat.

Also. everyone is conveniently ignoring the lore inconsistencies that has Asurmen being a Pre-fall hero: >>51200938.

>I'm not even arguing around personalities here anon, this is simply a strawman.

Many posters are arguing PLs don't count as Pre-fall because their original personality doesn't count. No strawmanning, that is literally their argument and it's been beaten.

>>51201106
That would be potentially tens of millions of years ago wouldn't it? How would any of them be alive?

>>51201085

Hey, I'm an eldarfag and understand that perfectly fine.

Blame it on the particular individual, not eldarfagness.

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>>51201108
Everyone is arguing if they were heroes before the fall except for you and one other idiot, you fucking idiot.

>>51201108
>despite existing and acting Pre-fall and being defined by surviving the Fall.

The point is that the PL as heroes and warriors and their system did not exist, you idiot.

>Also. everyone is conveniently ignoring the lore inconsistencies that has Asurmen being a Pre-fall hero: >>51200938.

You
see

>>51200971

>>51201110
webway time travel bullshit?

Reincarnation?

don't forget that one of the things the Fall fucked up was the eldars' ability to reincarnate on their own, and that aspect armors are just one way to do that artificially.

>>51201089

To the thread, not to the big discussion right now.

Regarding the tech, its likely the tech is all pre-fall, considering the clusterfuck it was the Fall.

Did they create that much tech after it? had the impression Dark Eldar were more advanced exactly due to this, being the 'original" eldar, and not the Path eldar.

>>51201119

Let's read the fucking thread dipshit:

>>51200700
>>51200712

Wow, reply chains sure are hard!

What's the source of the image and story? Also can anyone give a general background as to what occurred with our mystery elvish friend

>>51201123
>The point is that the PL as heroes and warriors and their system did not exist, you idiot.

That was never the point. The point was they are pre-fall. You lost that argument and tried to shift goal posts to save face and when you lost that argument too you dismissed it as myth because it contradicted you.

>>51201154
the big discussion right now needs to stop if it's off-topic and you need to swallow back your pride and stop arguing if you aren't saying anything relevant to the thread's topic.

>>51201108
>The original point of dispute was the claim "They are not Pre-Fall"
No, the premise was that they are not pre-Fall HEROES. I've never denied that they lived before the Fall, I've only repeatedly insisted that they only became heroes and operated as heroes AFTER the Fall, making them heroes of the post-Fall period of Eldar civilisation, aka post-Fall heroes.

>By your argument there are no pre-fall Eldar characters
That's another strawman, it's a severe misrepresentation of my argument. I've never claimed that no Eldar before the Fall were heroes, and I also never claimed that the only Eldar heroes were Phoenix Lords, and I never claimed that the only characters were heroes.

>Many posters are arguing
But I am not, and I'm not asking you to argue against other people's points, I'm asking you to argue against mine. By what standard are the Phoenix Lords pre-Fall heroes? Please respond without dropping out the word heroes, because that's an essential part of the premise, not some unnecessary prose.

>>51201156
>I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar heroes appearing just now

Go farther back you mongoloid. You did the original goal-post shiftery.

>>51201170
The point was the PLs pre-fall? The answer is no. The beings they were before the fall were pre-fall. That's it.

And I dismiss myth because the codex tells me so. Eldar legends are not to be taken literally,

>>51200855
>Kabalite hears story about Ahra
>"That dude is rad!"
>Doesn't get accepted into incubus school
>"Oh well, I'll just make this helmet that looks like him, that's bitchin'"

Because symbolism is so uncommon amongst eldar

>>51201173
>No, the premise was that they are not pre-Fall HEROES

No it wasn't. Argument started here:
>>51200689
>>51200700

You've added the heroes caveat to avoid admitting they are pre-fall. It's irrelevant. There wasn't even any wars to fight. Their armies were psychic constructs and some legends attribute their existence to Asurmen (lol).

>>51201173
there's this bit here
>>51200938
it says that Asuryan (who was eaten by Slaanesh during the Fall) gave Asurman cool stuff.

So surely it had to take place before the fall and Asurman was already a cool enough dude for the biggest Eldar god to give him stuff

>>51201189

Fuck me, we're going in circles. You'r bringing up a counter argument that's already been squashed: >>51200825

Their original essence remains unchanged.

>>51201197
>You've added the heroes caveat to avoid admitting they are pre-fall.

Nope, by saying they are Fall survivors it was acknowledged the guys who would become PLs were pre-fall. Then the next post >>51200753 shows that the transformation to Asuryan happened post-fall.

You are the only one who shifted the goalposts.

>>51201197
You're liking to posts that PROVE that the argument IS about them being pre-fall HEROES

>I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar HEROES appearing just now
>You've never heard of the phoenix lords?

>>51201209
It's about essence, it's about titles and stuff they did. A veteran is not retroactively a veteran in all the earlier parts of his life.

>>51201209
You

see

>>51201223
You are the only one going circles

>>51201223
>saying they are Fall survivors

In order to survive it, you need to exist. You're just agreeing that they are pre-fall in different words.

>the guys who would become PLs were pre-fall

And as we've established MANY times now, the original personalities are the dominant ones.

>>51201228
anyway, we have an account of Asurmen interacting with Asuryan

that can only happen pre-fall, and if Asurmen was badass enough to get stuff from Asuryan

>Eldrad is the CWE representative
>Sylandr Is the Harlequin representative who is also on pretty good terms with the second largest Kabal
>People don't think it's going to be some sort of Dark Eldar so GW can do a Eldar triumvirate

Calling it now the Gate will open in Commorragh destroying most of the city and all the eldar unite to fight off daemons

Also another point is look how bullshit the Eldar version of the Imperium's formation is going to be with 10 point HQ's as tax and as many scatbikes as you want

>>51201246
No, because as mentioned, the legends in the Codexes are probably highly inaccurate, as also stated in the codex.

>>51201228

Never were having that argument though. We were talking about if they pre-date the fall, which they do. It's more like saying a doctor didn't exist before the new millenium, because he only became a doctor in 2005.

>>51201239
>In order to survive it, you need to exist. You're just agreeing that they are pre-fall in different words.

They did not exist as PLs. They existed as a group of Fall survivors with no combat experience. They were not PLs, They were a group of Fuccbois and one derpy girl.

>And as we've established MANY times now, the original personalities are the dominant ones.

Does not matter. They were not PLs Pre-Fall. They were Fuccbois.

>>51201239
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE PERSONALITIES

it's about being HEROES BEFORE THE FALL

Phoenix Lords were brought up in this thread as examples of pre-fall heroes coming back after the fall.

And there's one piece of evidence proving that they were already heroes before Slaanesh ate up their gods
>>51200938

>>51201257
Oh then in that case Asurmen might as well be born in M38.

>>51196727
Eldanesh? Ulthanesh?

Maybe some kind of pre-Fall royalty?

>>51201274
No, because that lore isn't presented as a legend.

>>51201265
>it's about being HEROES BEFORE THE FALL

You can keep forcing this other argument, but I'm not falling for goalpost shifting. The original argument was are they pre-fall.

>>51201283
There is no goal shifting. You just dumb.

>>51201282
Everything concerning the Phoenix Lords is presented as a legend except the fact that they exist.

>>51201274

The novel has him witness the rise of please cults, which puts him at M20 according to the deldar codex.

>>51200689
>It's fucking Arhra.

Arhra is obviously Drazhar.

>>51201286

Please read the thread.

>>51200689
>>51200700

>>51201283
R E A D
>>51200051
>I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar heroes appearing just now
>pre-fall Eldar heroes
>heroes
>heroes
>heroes
>>51200689
>You've never heard of Phoenix Lords before?

>>51201296
No, Arha reincarnated as Farsight.

>Ahra burns with the dark flame of Chaos
>Farsight will become the "Mont'shaar" aka "The Terror That Burns Dark"

>>51201296

Confirmed different people by Path of the Incubi.

>>51201310
incubus

>>51201302

Read - >>51200700

>>51201282

Literally all PL lore in the codex is presented as legend. It's their entire premise.

>>51201331
Already been addressed. That post meant the PLs as they are post-Fall did not exist Pre-Fall. They were not heroes Pre-Fall. End of story.

>>51201331
Understand.

Understand that this statement is only relevant in regards to the phoenix lords being heroes before the fall
since this is the statement it responds to.


If, having understood that, you still insist to argue exclusively about their date of birth, you need to fuck off from this thread because it's not relevant.

>>51201339
And the point of the novel was to cut through the bullshit and hear an account from Asuryan himself about his past. Viewing his memories.

>>51201346
>That post meant the PLs as they are post-Fall did not exist Pre-Fal

That's already been rebutted by the fact their original identities are fixed.

>>51201346
what about this then?
>>51200938

>>51201360
Doesn't matter. Utterly irrelevant. They were not PLs Pre-Fall. They were civilians. End of story I said.

>>51201357

The novel missed the premise of the characters then huh? Probably why Thorpe novels keep getting retconned when they try to change war-masks into being independent of the physical helmet. Probably why no one cares about BL fluff and sticks to codex, rulebooks and supplements.

>>51201360
Understand the following:

by "as they are post-fall", we do NOT mean "with the personality they had post-fall", we "as badass heroes with big armors".

If they had badass armors and did cool stuff before the fall, then who cares if they were called "phoenix lords" or not?

>>51201366
A legend. Nothing more. The Eldar codex says that Eldar history is a strung with each other myths and legends, and not historical fact.

In the Maugan Ra lore the legends about him are conflicting and they change with each retelling.

>>51201380

>Them existing pre-fall is irrelevant because they had different titles

You see, your post might actually be relevant if anyone was arguing their titles existed pre-fall. Too bad the argument was that if they existed pre-fall.

>>51201400
In that case Asurmen may as well be born in M38, since the only part of their background that's not mythical is their respective equipment and names.

>>51201395
>we "as badass heroes with big armors".

At no point was anyone arguing this or even hinting at it. The argument was started with the claim they aren't pre-fall. Anything after that is bullshit squirming.

>>51201411

As someone already pointed out, he witnessed the spread of pleasure cults which has a very clear point on the deldar timeline.

File: Magnus.jpg (1011KB, 958x1796px) Image search: [Google]

1011KB, 958x1796px

>>51201393
Who are more shrouded in mystery than the primarchs? Little else.

Hey, if the Primarchs are having their histories revealed one by one, then why wouldn't important characters like the PL have a similar treatment?

Xenosfags always wanted more content

>>51201436

Almost as if BL misses the entire appeal of these characters.

>>51201422
The argument started when someone said they are pre-fall heroes and someone then pointed out that they were not.

The squirming is on the them being pre-fall heroes part.

>>51201450
Do you want an actual developed character to enjoy or a cardboard cut out character that you can project into like a manchild?

>>51201422
R E A D
E
A
D
>>51200051
>I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar heroes appearing just now
>heroes
>heroes
>heroes
>pre-fall Eldar heroes
>heroes
>heroes

Then the Phoenix Lords were brought up as examples of
>pre-fall
eldar
>HEROES
as a point of comparison with ELDANESH
who was a hero before the fall.

Therefore, the argument is
"were they heroes before the fall"
like Eldanesh was.

If you are trying to argue about something else (such as their identity or date of birth) you need to stop arguing.

>>51201452

Seeing as not a single post disputes if they were heroes or not, gonna have to say no on that one. There's a very clear point of disagreement on their existence. Then there was a stupid argument that their personalities were different. Only after that was lost did people start quibbling over whether their titles existed or if they were heroes back then, and there was evidence even for that. We've been through about 3 or 4 arguments, but the original point of contention was the unequivocally worded 'They are not Pre-Fall'.

>>51201460
developed characters are usually unenjoyable, because they're way too close to real people.
Primarchs and Phoenix Lords are cool when we don't know much about them because we CAN'T relate to them or project on them. They're distant figures, they're alien, superhuman, not fully comprehensible, and badass.

If you start giving them a detailed psychology and some depth, they become relatable, you can project onto them, and they stop being impressive, because you realize that they aren't psychologically very different from the average XXth century nerd.

>>51201460

>BL
>Developed character

Not only are they incapable of that, they're incapable of understanding that mythic characters are enjoyable precisely because they are mythic. Take away the myth and you're left with nothing.

>>51201484
Nope, the personality bit was goal shifting and trying to deflect from the fact that PLs didn't exist back then. They were not Pre-Fall heroes. See >>51201467

It's obvious for everyone. The discussion ends here.

>>51201484
>I am unable to understand context
let's say that you're right.
If you are, then why are you still arguing? Clearly, trying to defend the idea that Phoenix Lords existed (even as civilians) before the fall is fucking irrelevant to the thread itself.

Nobody's even arguing against the idea that the PL were born before the fall.

Because if the character in the OP pic does indeed have a pre-fall armor, then what we need to know is whether or not the PL had armors before the fall.

>>51201522

It was never the point of contention. If the crux of the argument was about them being heroes pre-fall why say "they are not pre-fall. Why not clarify that two posts in? Why shift to making stuff up about the original personalities not counting and claiming they were completely different people? Why keep posting even when evidence of them being heroes pre-fall?

>>51201555
Because there's no need to!

There's no need to use autistically precise wording like "the phoenix lords are not pre-fall heroes" if you're responding to a post that points them as examples of pre-fall heroes.

Unless you're talking to a context-deaf idiot who can't infer the meaning of a statement from its place in an argument.

Even if the guy above was ACTUALLY saying that the phoenix lords were born after the fall, then it's not enough to contradict him, you must ALSO prove that they were heroes before the fall because the argument started EARLIER when the PL were brought as an example of pre-fall heroes.

>>51201542
>Nobody's even arguing against the idea that the PL were born before the fall.

When someone explicitly says they are not pre-fall and that immediately leads to an argument, how can you possibly be confused as to what the argument is about? You have multiple posts saying outright "they are not pre-fall" then that they were "entirely different persons". Those two statements were proven wrong. That's the end of it, but there's a lot of quibbling over something that never received ANY opposition and was irrelevant to the thread.

>>51201555
It was clarified in the posts showing Asurman transformation and that their PL training happened post fall. Meaning that they were not pre-fall heroes.

The personality business was raised only by you. I disagree with it and argued against it. But the fact remains that PLs were not heroes post fall and that argument was assumed to be resolved butt hat anon proved to be too much of an idiot.

Then that anon posted a legend about Asuryan. Despite him claiming to know about Eldar lore he neglected the part that says that Eldar legends are not based on historical fact. Repeatedly ignored the bits that say that legends about the individual PLs are conflicting and prone to change all the time with only the PLs themselves knowing the truth.

>>51201607
>When someone explicitly says they are not pre-fall

The fact that anon said that they were Fall survivors acknowledges that they existed Pre-Fall albeit as not heroes aka PLs.

Dumb as a brick.

>>51201598

>Because there's no need to!

You realize no one knows what posts belong to who right? I never responded to the guy talking about heroes. I responded to the guy that said they weren't pre-fall. Two different statements.

>Even if the guy above was ACTUALLY saying that the phoenix lords were born after the fall, then it's not enough to contradict him

If someone says they aren't pre-fall and you demonstrate they are then it's enough to demonstrate that point. Your problem is you think someone was taking issue with a completely different post.

>>51201643
Anon, you are an idiot.

see >>51201630

>>51201607
the argument started earlier

>I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar heroes
>You've never heard of Phoenix Lords before?
THIS is the "point of contention".
THIS is the "crux of the argument"
why do you choose to ignore this and arbitrarily decide that the argument stops once you've determined that the Phoenix Lords were born before the fall?

>>51201643
the argument started earlier

>I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar heroes
>You've never heard of Phoenix Lords before?
THIS is the "point of contention".
THIS is the "crux of the argument"
why do you choose to ignore this and arbitrarily decide that the argument stops once you've determined that the Phoenix Lords were born before the fall?

>>51201609

>>The personality business was raised only by you

If only that was true. Here you see many posters saying his original personality was a different person:

>>51200780
>>51200849
>>51200890

They tried to distinguish Asurmen from his first life and this was proven an irrelevant distinction by the codex fluff stating that the first life is the dominant identity. Same person. So yeah, quite a few posters argued irrelevant shit and didn't talk about whether they were heroes.

>>51201676

It's ignored, because it was never disputed. A completely different post and statement was disputed.

>>51201707
Whatever his main personality is doesn't matter. Pre-Fall he was not a hero. So you mentioning him among the Pre-Fall heroes is false.

>>51201726

>So you mentioning him among the Pre-Fall heroes is false.

No one was ever saying he was a hero pre-fall, therefore not relevant. People were however, as that post you're replying to demonstrates, trying to argue he didn't count as pre-fall because his personality was different. So that IS relevant.

So I take it you agree with me they are pre-fall and were the same people before and after?

>>51201712
It was not a completely different post.

Here's the thing

this is what everyone is discussing (except you)
>the Phoenix Lords are pre-fall heroes

one guy tried to prove that it isn't true by saying they aren't pre-fall.

And you, without giving a shit whether or not he was talking about their date of birth, or about their heroic status, decided to prove him that the PL were born before the fall, as if that was enough to settle the argument that had begun before.

But it's not enough.

And when people pointed it out, you immediately started panicking when you realized that you didn't know what we were talking about.

>>51201754
>No one was ever saying he was a hero pre-fall
yes
>>51200689
>I've never heard of pre-fall Eldar heroes appearing just now
>You've never heard of Phoenix Lords before?

this guy was bringing up PL as an example of pre-fall eldar heroes

>>51201765

I wasn't discussing that post you're talking about, so yeah, it is a completely different post stating something I never took issue with. Do you understand now?

>>51201783
Do you understand that, by not discussing the posts I'm talking about, you aren't discussing the post you claim to be talking about, but only ONE POSSIBLE interpretation of the post you're talking about, and not an interpretation that's relevant to the argument it was a part of?

If you understand that what you chose to argue about was in fact NOT the crux of the argument, you may express your regrets now, and ask us to forgive you.

>>51201782

>They are pre-fall eldar heroes
>They were Eldar heroes pre-fall

See the ambiguity? Poster never argued they were heroes before the fall, just that they were pre-fall.

>>51201806

>>If you understand that what you chose to argue about was in fact NOT the crux of the argument

Right back at ya.

>>51201820
The crux of the argument isn't what you chose to argue about

it's what the people before you were arguing about.
>>51201808
There's no ambiguity.
A pre-fall eldar hero, as pointed out before, is NOT an eldar who was born before the fall and became a hero after
it's an eldar who was a hero pre-fall.
The two formulations are STRICTLY interchangeable and equivalent.

>>51201877

>>51201806

Anon, do you notice how the statement "They are not pre-fall" has posters arguing for/against? Yet, for the argument "they were heroes before the fall" there isn't a single post to be seen in favour of this? Almost as if one these arguments didn't actually exist.

>>51201838

>There's no ambiguity. A pre-fall eldar hero, as pointed out before, is NOT an eldar who was born before the fall and became a hero after
it's an eldar who was a hero pre-fall.


Really? Because those two sentences have completely different meanings. 'pre-fall eldar hero' can be a hero who is from before the fall. When he became a hero is left ambiguous in that sentence. However, the sentence "eldar who were heroes pre-fall" is not ambiguous is it?

>>51201310

Where was it confirmed in the book? I felt it just reaffirmed that they were the same?

So what was the consensus? Is the guy in red an incubi?

Aside from lacking horns, he shares a lot in common with the Andy Chambers book art. The trophy wrack, helmet, shoulders, and such all look close.

The crescent moon on his helm could place him as a Incubi retinue to a specific Archon. Dark Eldar lack both plastic Incubi and a large model so it's possible we'll see a Dias of Destruction type kit come out which could deliver us ornate Incubi retinue.

>>51202165
It's Illic.

>>51201085
>There are Admech, custodes, perhaps marine characters, and Orks with more combat experience than the PLs.

The only one to whom that is true is perhaps orks.
Admech, Space Marines, nor the Custodes didn't exist before the formation of the Aspect Shrines, the first which were founded few decades or so after the Fall.

>>51202624
Cawl has been an Admech for 10K years.

And I am pretty sure the Custodes predate the Fall.

>>51201360
WHAT THEY WERE BEFORE THE FALL IS FUCKING IRRELEVANT, BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T FUCKING PHOENIX LORDS BEFORE THE FALL.

ASURMAN WAS A PARTY LOVING HIPPIE DIPSHIT THAT IGNORED HIS OWN BROTHER'S WARNINGS ABOUT THE INCOMING SHITFEST THAT WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN, AND WITNESSED HIS OWN BROTHER GET KILLED BY DEAMONS WHEN THE FALL HAPPENED.

HE THEN RETREATED TO A SHRINE OF ASSURIAN WHERE HE HID, MEDITATED AND HONES HIS BATTLE SKILLS IN ORDER TO DEFEND HIMSELF FROM THE DEGENERATE JUNKIES THAT STILL ROAMED THE STREETS OF HIS HOMEWORLD, AND DEAMONS.
THERE HE ENCOUNTERED THE ONE WHO WOULD BECOME JAIN-ZAR, WHO BACK THEN, WAS JUST A DEGENERATE DRUGGIE THAT ASSAULTED ASURMEN BUT WAS DEFEATED.

ALL OF THOSE EVENTS TOOK PLACE POST FALL, AND THOSE EVENTS WERE THE ONES THAT BEGAN THEIR TRANSFORMATION INTO THE LEGENDARY PHOENIX LORDS.

PHOENIX LORDS, DID NOT EXIST, BEFORE THE FUCKING FALL, JUST LIKE BATMAN DIDN'T FUCKING EXIST WHEN BRUCE WAYNE WAS STILL A GOD DAMN KID.

GET IT TROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL, YOU GOD DAMN MONGOLOID!

>>51202650
>And I am pretty sure the Custodes predate the Fall.

Nope.

The Custodes were created after the Fall blasted away all the Warp storms generated during the Age of Strife and Big E could start up his master plan.

>>51201085
Daemons and necrons exist for millions of years yet they are wrecked left and right.

>>51196727
exoditesI still use tech.

>>51202650
Just because Cawl has been part of the admech for that long, doesn't mean that he didn't spend his first 1000 years as a glorified secretary to some more important characters.
In fact, it is very likely that he spent most of the last 10 000 years climbing the convoluted hierarchy of the admech.

Not to say that he is inexperienced at combat or shit like that, just that the mere fact that he has been part of the admech for that long, doesn't necessarily mean that he has that many years of combat experience

>>51202723
I was under the assumption that the Space Marines legions were already complete when the warpstorms cleared.

>>51200394
That's how an Exarch/Phoenix Lord works, but yes.

>>51202816
The timing of when the warp calmed and the specific events of the War of Unification is pretty hazy And I hope it stays that way.

>>51201197
New poster. By this point in the discussion I really hope your carer has taken away your crayons and strapped on your helmet.
Absolute idiot.
The other guy has the patience of a saint

>>51201712
I think every one on this thread realized that 'heroes' was mistakenly missed from the quote in that post. Except (you)

Does anyone have a download link for the pdf/epub?

>>51202717
>someone unironically wrote this post.
Lul