What's the lamest setting and why is it steampunk?

>>51179800
Correction - there is always LARP

And steampunk LARP

This has been answered multiple times but IMO it's probably the disconnect from it's Victorian aesthetics but completely lacking the social aspects like the wedge between the bourgeois, noble classes and the poor, etc
No one wants to play a street wretch that gets his legs caught in a thresher
Or just add gears to everything xdd

>>51179800
Because it's nothing but a shitty aesthetic. Cyberpunk has themes and lessons about society.

Steampunk is just LOL COGS AND BRASS AND CORSETS XD AMI ORIGINAL YET GUYZ?

Because it became an aesthetic that people added to things without explaining why it was there.

>>51179906
This is my biggest gripe with the genre, it's called SteamPUNK but everyone wants to play The Right Honorable Captain Ambrose Fortyscue V, when they should be play Gaz the oppressed street urchin fighting against the factory owners who killed his sister and gave him a hook for a hand.

>>51179800
Bastardization is a good part of it. Not all of it, but a lot of it.

Steampunk isn't even a setting, its an aesthetic that's been used well like 5 times.

>>51179800
depends entirely if they have a magic crystal that powers everything so wooden blimps cars get hand waved away as just functional.

If its a hard science setting in the 1870s and they only crazy thing is foreknowledge on how things could have went if they wanted to build crazy stuff. like cattle prod swords or say a sea train, but you still had to use whale oil and black powder and the villain wasn't magic, isn't in London and you don't meet famous real people, then OK I can see it working out ok.

>with a really crafty group and a smart GM, they can try to power game by building things like doc brown in back to the future 3. they just make an ice machine in the desert and find a way to export it via railway cars that runs off of this weird black goo that comes from a weird foreign territory that you gotta check out, but these people don't speak god's tongue and don't were pants. by Jove we have to sort this mess out and secure our shipments! send those fucking weirdos and Irishmen that hang out in opium dens.

>>51179800
Steampunk isn't a setting, it's an aesthetic.

>>51180978
So what would vaporwave steampunk look like?

>>51179800
But that's not cyberpunk.
Worst setting that attract the worse kind of trash when play online or during game day with strangers.
With at least steampunk, you often still get fun adventures but with airships but cyberpunk remove all fun and insert a lot of whining and bitching NPCs while making most sessions become a very thinly-veiled revenge wanking session for the DM with the players served as viewers.
Perhaps it attract only the worst kind of people as DMs but I only have bad experience when encountering cyberpunk when playing tabletop.

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>>51179800
Steampunk is not a bad choice for setting, it's just stereotypical aesthetic that makes it look bad. Steampunk can be done right if you are not trying to achieve feeling similar to what majority of LARPers and cosplayer think steampunk is.

If you will focus on social aspects (as >>51179906 already mentioned) in contrary to just spamming fancy machinery and wacky costumes, you can get a good type of steampunk, like Arcanum did. Trojka simply started developing setting with idea of industrial revolution in high fantasy setting and effect on society that it will cause.

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>>51179949
Can you get a pass if halfway through your campaign, your party of Captain Ambrose Fortscue Vs discovers they've secretly been working for the Man the whole time to deliver the crushing weight of robber barony and industrialized disregard for humanity down on the proletariat?

The second half of the campaign being the players' efforts to undo all the horrors they caused.

>>51181708
Seems like a simple bad luck to me. My favourite campaign was when we played SLA Industries (cyberpunk inspired by Margaret Thatcher's UK). It turned out to be a good mix of action, investigation and horror without being completely grimderp.

I would say that VtM attracts more weirdos, but it's not like you can't have fun with it if you choose your players wisely.

>>51180978

Agreed and it's an overdone and trite one because it's an anachronistic aesthetic that needs a story to function, thought there are some capable authors out there, the Aesthetic has an appeal to a larger group of dribbling cretins than one would perhaps expect.

>>51181708
Cyberpunk stopped being an aesthetic when it became reality.

The PEOTUS is advertising businesses on his twitter. It's not even a well-written cyberpunk setting.

>>51179800
>What's the lamest setting
The one I have to play in with such faggots as you, OP.

>>51181014
http://www.youtubemultiplier.com/5878b9834ba71-steamwave-vaporsteam-vaporpunk.php

>>51181773
If they are true to being Captain Ambrose Fortscue Vs, then they will have a cup of tea and shrug it off, beause why should they care about the low-lives, the literal cattle running the industry. They are here for top hats and weirdly looking guns.

In short - they ARE The Man. For their own big adventure(s), rather than giving a single fuck about people at the bottom.
Also, there is this great colonial campaign the GM just made for them, they they can mow down waves of natives with the great invention of Tesla gun (I will never understand how the fuck Tesla is steampunk), desacrate some holy ground and kill some wild life with large-bore hand cannons!
What a treat!

>>51181708
>I play with random nobodies
>It's the fault of the setting the game blows
Your logical lapses are kind of amusing

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>>51182374
Knowing my party, that is also an acceptable outcome. Very well, it's repressing the poors with old timey machine guns and four-bores all the way down.

As long as I get to speak at least one NPC voice in a pompous accent and invent lots of fun titles for nobility.

>>51182417
>anons players are as morally disciplined as pre 20th century nobles
Hilarious

>>51179800
Generic Medieval Fantasy. Steampunk? Hah. I'd rather endure the coggiest and foppiest of cogfops than endure another incompetent attempt to rehash Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones.

>>51179879
>LARP
>setting

>>51182374
There also those pervetred socialists and "noble" communists, poisoning minds of plebs with ideas of "Unions" "fair wage" and "bathroom breaks". They not all was from lowly workers.

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>>51182467
They're like a Tyranids crossbred with Mongols, led by Hedonismbot. I've long since realized that I can do my whole "telling a story" thing interwoven with that aim as long as the story isn't about the world, it's about THEM.

Making it about the Tyranimongols means that they're invested in the story being told, not just critting a slowed, stunned, burning child for 50,000 mega damage. Though it's also true that my worlds tend to have a lot of law and order, which cuts down a little on the murder rampages because the players want to be able to buy skooma, lockpicks, and poison when they're in town.

>>51182210
That's true of all aesthetics, though. Have you ever tried to read sci-fi or fantasy outside of the well-known breakaway franchises? It's a lot of sifting through shit to find a couple nuggets of gold.

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>>51179800
Steampunk is the worst and lamest setting because, unlike what many people (especially within the steampunk community) think it's not a setting. It's an aesthetic that people mistake for a setting.

The Chartist Uprisings of 1830, that's a setting. The Europe-wide revolutions of 1848? That's a setting. The German Empire? That's a setting. Belle Époque France? That's a setting. Meiji Restoration Japan? That's a setting. The Wild West? That's a setting. And guess what, every single one of them is compatible with steampunk, except all of them work differently... because of the setting!

What we associate with "steampunk" scrapes the bottom of the barrel in terms of worldbuilding/setting because it's simply the easiest. It's always upper class England in the 1880s, no deviation from this formula. Do you know why? Because this allows them to play around with le wacky inventors and le top hats and le faux British accents. 1820's England? Fuck that, I'd have to read up on history and fuck history amirite? How about 1880s France? Fuck that, I'd have to read up on what they were doing at the time AND probably learn a language. Do you know how impossible French is? They like, pronounce words entirely differently! What a nightmare! Alright, we stick with 1880s England but we actually look at significant events going on in the UK and the effects it had on various social strata other than the upper class. How about that? FUCK THAT, because that would mean actually studying the setting, and why waste time on that when I could be sticking more cogs on my codpiece?

tl;dr: Cogfop is a combination if ignorance and the desire to be a special snowflake
tl;dr 2 - steampowered boogaloo: Steampunk.Is.Not.A.Setting.

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>>51179800
Here's the harsh truth:

Medieval fantasy is as much a shitty aesthetic as Steampunk is. The reason why it's more acceptable is because medieval times are further removed from modern day than steampunk is.

>Be Brit
>Big family, many of whom have been in the military
>Able to trace our family tree fairly well back to around 1800 due to military records
>Invited to a '''steampunk''' campaign
>Make a dock hand who lost his hand to one of the monsters in the Thames and had it replaced by a hook
>Imagine Captain Ahab but on a smaller scale
>Everyone else is playing nobility
>One guy uses pic related as a his character art
>"Except he's got a robotic arm replacing the missing one. He lost it in the Crimean war."
>This guy is literally playing one of my ancestors
>This guy doesn't understand anything about how Victorian nobility acted, operated, or functioned
>Can feel my ancestor rolling in his grave

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>>51182750
Forgot pic

>>51182690
Same could be said about every genre with defined aesthetic. Special snowflakes are always special snowflakes no matter what setting we're talking about.

>>51182746
>The reason why it's more acceptable is because medieval times are further removed from modern day than steampunk is.
Here's some perfect examples
>>51182750
>>51182690
>>51179920
>>51179906

Meanwhile, your generic medieval fantasy setting grossly combines several post-ancient settings into a hodgepodge of nonsensical concurrent technologies/lifestyles and misses all of the social aspects of those times.

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>>51182746
>Medieval fantasy is as much a shitty aesthetic
Unlike steampunk, medieval fantasy is an actual setting style, not an aesthetic. There are tons of variations on the aesthetic of medieval fantasy that are still recognizable because of the swords and wizards. I don't think you really thought your opinion through at all.

>>51182746
No, it's acceptable because a medieval world requires more worldbuilding. It has to do with it being futher removed from us, but not only in time but in mindset. You can't just play an excentric rich guy, because that means you're either a noble (which confers you certain rights and obligations) or high bourgeois (which means you DON'T have certain rights).

Both are generally horribly thought out and horribly fleshed out, but at least some thought goes even into the blandest medieval setting. Even if that's just ripping off Tolkien and Arthurian tales.

>>51182768
True, but steampunk somehow appears to be a very easy target for these snowflakes.

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>>51182779
>Unlike steampunk, medieval fantasy is an actual setting style, not an aesthetic
That's bunk. Medieval fantasy is exclusively Tolkien aesthetic settings.
>still recognizable because of the swords and wizards
Which is exactly the same as cogs and airships in terms of depth and function.

>>51182781
>it's acceptable because a medieval world requires more worldbuilding.
No, it doesn't. There's nothing inherent about it that requires more world building. Medieval fantasy is "there are knights, kings, magic and no guns" full stop.
>You can't just play an excentric rich guy, because that means you're either a noble (which confers you certain rights and obligations) or high bourgeois (which means you DON'T have certain rights).
That's bullshit. The limits you put on this mode of fantasy don't exist outside of your mind.

>>51179949
Polite reminder that the -punk in steampunk never meant anything and was pure marketing.

>>51182825
>There's nothing inherent about it that requires more world building
Oh?
>Medieval fantasy is "there are knights, kings, magic and no guns"
>knights
You've proven yourself wrong. The very existence of knights already implies something about how politics and society works. As does the existence of kings justified by means other than popular sovereignity.

>The limits you put on this mode of fantasy don't exist outside of your mind.
Except they exist, you double nigger. Of course you can deviate from that formula, but that's... worldbuilding! If your knights work differently from knights in a 'standard' faux-Western Europe medieval setting, you're building up the word.

reminder that post civil war america makes a better steampunk setting than england during the same time period

reminder the cyberpunk and steampunk are both retarded because there's nothing punk about either

reminder that punk lifestyle and ethos is fucking shit

>>51182779
So what medievalpunk would look like? Peasant uprisings and protestant leagues against Spanish papacycracy?

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>>51182909
> So what medievalpunk would look like?
French Revolution.

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>>51182909

>>51182887
>Oh?
This sums up the quality of your stance.
>You've proven yourself wrong. The very existence of knights already implies something about how politics and society works.
No, it means "dudes in full plate armor with swords 'n sheeit".
>Except they exist
In your head.

>>51182909
>ACTUAL history
Yeah...nah. Medievalpunk would be girls wearing lavish dresses and men in armor speaking faux-shakespearian to eachother and challenging eachother to duels all the time. Oh, and sometimes the princesses challenge knights to duel because muh strong independent womyn because why fucking read up on medieval history?

>>51182746
>Medieval fantasy is exclusively Tolkien aesthetic settings.
Does pic related look like Tolkien to you? Think before you post.

>>51182930
for >>51182825

>>51182921
>This sums up the quality of your stance.
Inquisitive curiosity?

>No, it means "dudes in full plate armor with swords 'n sheeit".
I've never really seen that, but if that is truly the case then it's as much armorfop as steampunk is cogfop.

Though now that you mention this, it does sound vaguely remeniscent of LindyBeige's reasoning in some of his videos. "This didn't work for my LARP group ergo it wasn't real"

>>51182909
>>51182919
Or rather, years immediately leading up to French Revolution.

Robespierre knew what was up when he removed filthy royalists from the premises.

>>51182840
Funny thing is, it originally did. Gibson wrote a cyberpunk novel in the Victorian age, it got snowcloned into steampunk, and shortly thereafter the term -punk lost all meaning when people jumped on the Victorian bandwagon rather than the high-tech low-life focus it originally meant.

>>51182958
That's a common misconception. Steampunk was coined in the 80's, before the difference engine was published.

>>51182928
I suppose more focused stereotypical theme would work better.

If we talk about ladies and men in armour, how about chivalry-punk? There are already a ton of chivalric literature like "Parcival", "Tristan and Isolde", "Quentin Durward". It's focused and all about aesthetic.

>>51182988
Chivalric romance? Like the sort of thing de Cervantes was mocking when he wrote Don Quixote?

>>51179906
Wait, that's how people are playing their Steampunk games? But it's incredibly fun to be leading factory strikes and getting into street rumbles with rival gangs over turf. Sure, the occasional jaunt into a skyship is fun too, but doing grimy back alley work is what made my current campaign so enjoyable.

>>51183010
Yes, like romances.
A lot of people mock steampunk too (Just like now). There are a lot of space for stereotypical special snowflakes. It's easy to come up with content. Plus a lot of romances has made up geography despite having a real world as a base.
It's like a poetry, it rhymes!

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>>51182988
>Chivalrypunk
>Everyone walking around in armor
>15th century suit of mail with a Crusader Greathelmet
>Chainmail with just a tabard combined with a bascinet
>They all waggle around like gigantic geese, as if their suits weigh a metric ton
>Random interjections of "Lo", "hark" and "m'lady" in conversation
>Fucking indoors on-foot jousting matches

>>51183136
See, it works!

>>51179949

It's honestly boring to play as the dirty unterfolk. I'd really rather play as a gentleman explorer, soldier or Flashman type.

I mean, the poor don't even have costumes. I rather play the oppressor than the victim.

>>51179949
>>51182374
>>51182532

No more coal for their machines until we secure bread for our sons
[the internationale intensifies]

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>setting has ~15th century plate armor
>but no cannons or gunpowder at all

>>51182374

> Also, there is this great colonial campaign the GM just made for them, they they can mow down waves of natives with the great invention of Tesla gun (I will never understand how the fuck Tesla is steampunk), desacrate some holy ground and kill some wild life with large-bore hand cannons!

Those are great, actually. My favorite campaign was about a group of explorers to the New World, and it ended in a desperate, greed-crazed flight into the jungles with all the cash we could grab.

>>51179949
I played a bio-augmented Mary Shelley seeking revenge on the wealthy businessmen and nobles who had her husband murdered. Does that count?

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>>51183248

>>51182778
>Anyone who hates steampunk must play D&D clones with cuttie-cutter setting based on it or being a heatbreaker of it
This is yet another reason why cogfop fags are so videly hated.

>>51183438
>how dare you insult and broadly generalize my preferred aesthetic!?
>that's my job!!

>>51183438
Are you unironically accusing him of doing what you're doing literally right now? Do you have ANY self-awareness at all? Or am I being rused?

>>51182919

The Reformation. Literally.

>>51183573
No, you are just being retarded

>>51183871
Ah, so it's that you have
>no self-awareness

>>51179800
There are still much lamer settings.

>Vampires exist in secret, nothing changes whatsoever urban fantasy
>Zelda
>Slice of life, I live with a mean robot and a kangaroo person webcomic
>gritty Hollywood Alice in Wonderland or fairytale reboot

>>51184109
>Zelda
>American McGee's Alice
>lame
I'll cut you, bitch.

>>51179800
It's only bad in the minds of the people who are compelled to shitpost about it on /tg/ once per month.

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>>51183136
uuugghhh

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>>51179800
It can be and was done well.

>>51182513
could be cool. In fact, I kinda want to do this now. A game where the players make LARPers with 8s and 10s for ability scores and all have shitty foam weapons. Maybe they've got to fight off some cool dudes who show up to make fun of their LARP.

>>51182909
>>51182919
Well, what's the biggest societal conflict we can pin down there? I can think of two.
>the role of religion and religious fragmentation on day to day life
>class structures you can do nothing about
So a good Medivalpunk story would probably involve one or both of these themes. So yeah, the French revolution.

>>51183208
>Flashman
And the fifth time you betray the rest of the party to their doom I think the other players would have words with you. Lots and lots of words.

>>51182919
>>51185034
>French Revolution
>medieval times

???

>>51179800
Anyone heard of Age of Aether?

>>51179800

While I agree with you that steampunk is lame, it's not a setting. It's a fashion/aesthetic.

>>51179920
This. This right here. Steampunk isn't a setting at all, it's just fashion.

>>51182746
>debating aesthetics
nope. that's pointless. but thanks for your angle, anon.

>>51182690
To be fair, French is a fucking stupid language when it comes to pronunciation. I know Latin, and grew up around hispanics. If someone is speaking Portuguese, most Italian dialects, or hell even Romanian, I can get the basic gist of what they're saying. But French is a bunch of fucking goobledygook.

>>51179906
>Not wanting to be 'Ironshanks' John, the factory worker who lost his legs in a machinery accident, the factory owner having an idea to test his new prototype makes him a deal, he has to go through the painful experiment for the new robotic legs but in return he can keep them for free and return to work the next day.

>>51189551
Your post is bad.

>>51190066
but i don't feel bad
czech'd

>>51180978
>npbp

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>>51179800
It can be done pretty well if you go light on it. If you focus on cogs and gears everywhere it gets really screwy and stupid.

However, focusing on the actual themes of exploration and the edges of mainline society "out West," and things like Imperialism and what is and is not civilized behavior "back East," and only use the steampunk aspects to introduce things like more advanced technology either as fun or to make "back East," seem more distant and decadent, then you're good to go.

It all depends on how it's done. Don't focus on the aesthetic, focus on themes of the approximate historical eras that inspired Steampunk in the first place.

Personally I'm more a fan of the American West--in particular as a fictional pseudo-setting--than the amalgamation of European Imperialism that made up the rough Victorian Era, but they often go hand-in-hand a lot better than you think.

>>51182921
Given relative cost of armour and weapons compared to standard peasant/serf income levels, it does show that the social structure is very effective at concentrating wealth into hands of a ruling class, eg. Feudal system.

>>51182919
>>51185034
ITT the 18th century is medieval.

>>51192318
The social structure of the modern world is very effective at concentrating wealth in the hands of the ruling class. And yet I'm pretty sure there's no remaining societies organized along feudal lines.

>>51192524
Well "medieval" is roughly halfway between earliest civilized settlements and present day.
Now when you apply that reasoning on American continent it indeed comes to 18th century.

>>51189696
>To be fair, French is a fucking stupid language when it comes to pronunciation
That's English, and that's coming from someone who speaks both non-natively at at least B2 level. French pronunctuation is counterintuitive going in, but once you get the hang of it, you can pronounce anything. If you can pronounce pareille, you can automatically pronounce Marseille, veille, oreille et cetera. Compare English, where here rhymes with ear but not with there, or bear does rhymes with there but not with dear, and let's not get started on however the fuck you're supposed to pronounce Gloucester, Worcester and Thames, all three of which are downright impossible to pronounce without prior knowledge of the proper pronunctuation. Unlike a certain someone I won't call English a "fucking stupid language" or "a bunch of goobledygook" and simply state facts: French was standardized by the Académie Française since the 1600s with focus on rational grammatical rules and consistency (even recently they changed the spelling of oignon to be more consistent with how it's pronounced: ognon). English never had such a trend (there were proposals to do so somewhere in the 1700s but nothing came of it) so it developed as a highly inconsistent language.

How about you drop the francophobia?

>>51192318
>Given relative cost of armour and weapons compared to standard peasant/serf income levels
Only if you specifically model your setting like that. None of that is inherently tied to medieval fantasy, which is primarily a fantasy aesthetic rather than any coherent attempt at simulating actual medieval history.

>>51192637
>let's not get started on however the fuck you're supposed to pronounce Gloucester, Worcester and Thames, all three of which are downright impossible to pronounce without prior knowledge of the proper pronunctuation.

REEEE, Ephraimites get out

>>51192634
So the United States of America was, at its founding, a medieval society?

No, that's bollocks.

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>>51182919
>>51185034
>>51192634
>/tg/ is THIS bad at history
Brah

>>51182746
If you ignore D&D and the like that there are plenty of games, stories etc that depict a fantastical but authentically medieval world.

In fact you've made me consider that there's actually nothing wrong with steampunk in principle, and I shouldn't be so prejudiced.

>>51192800
Not any of those anons, but honestly Medievalpunk would be like if the French revolution happened a few centuries earlier.
Or, rather, it would be set in the tense times leading up to it probable.

To be fair, the French Revolution is probably the most well known republic vs monarchy revolutions.
If you wanted to go more in depth do stuff like the Commune of Rome, if you spun it as a doomed experiment of sticking it to the (lordly) man

Either that or medievalpunk would be just post-medieval technology with medieval european values and social structures

>>51192931
I mean there were plenty of peasant revolts in the actual medieval period, they just usually ended with the peasants on the receiving end of the ensuing massacre.

The word punk is problem. Cyberpunk without punk is just science fiction aesthetics. What should steampunk and dieselpunk be called of we want to name the aesthetic and not have the punk aspect?

>>51193011
What is Dieselpunk rebelling against anyway?

>>51193047
More efficient fuels?

>>51193047
The thing about Dieselpunk is that if you stick to there needing to be "punks," they're focused on things that were the focus of the early- and inter-war periods.

Things like labor unions, the growing globalization, things like radio and electricity bringing convenience to those on the outskirts of civilization, but also a degree of awareness of how some have much while most have little. Political struggles are often growing, and the conflicting ideals are not afraid to get dirty with each other in the streets or on the global stage; extremist leaders and demagogues are not only common, but often encouraged by growing nationalism on the backswing of mass Imperialism.

Unlike Steampunk, where greater technology is often the realm of the rich or the inventors with investors, Dieselpunk has that technology being given to most; if they can afford it. Mass production is now far more the name of the game, and that's often where labor aspects come in. Industrialization has been rife with problems in most nations that experienced it; bring those problems to the forefront, but with a grander scale and a much better pseudo-art-deco aesthetic.

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>>51193047
Massive industrial progress that dehumanises the workers into numbers, reliant pollution that chokes the young and elderly, the widening gap between the wealthy and the poor.

>>51192637
English gets a pass cuz its a pidgin of Germanic and French with slight Celtic influence

>>51193145
Never heard it described that way before.

>>51193145
Yes, and French hatched from an egg right?

>>51193047
Anarchist thugs, tools of the 3rd international, new deal fascism and the end of the progressive era.

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People focus on the -punk a bit too strongly.

If you are going to view steampunk within the vein of cyberpunk you have to look at the common factor and theme (industrialization and the social changes it causes) in chronological order.

Cyberpunk is the dystopia. The high-tech/low-life diaspora where the protagonists are the downtrodden rising up against the cold, uncaring corporations.

Steampunk is the same but the protagonists usually flip. The heroes are the eccentric inventors, noble investors, and brilliant engineers forging a path forward in the newborn industrialized world. The founders of progress, filled with hopes and dreams to blaze humanity through the dark of the old world into the future. They square off against unscrupulous business rivals and the unwashed ludites that seek to abuse or stifle scientific endeavor.

Then you hit the dieselpunk genre where those hopes and dreams burn out as the visionary founders have died off taking their values with them and the state of the world bends industrialization to war and misery. Your protagonists can come from both ends easily as the social boundaries have blurred during the world war themes of dieselpunk as everyone is stuck in against "the enemy".

That finally progresses to cyberpunk where the corporations that may have roots in human progress have long since forgotten their founders' visions and have become desensitized to the plight of the masses, exploiting them no longer for the purpose of progress but exclusively for the bottom line.

The -punk genres have always had the class struggle to it but it's a roller coaster of perspectives over a 150 year window.

>>51193145
English is structurally almost entirely Germanic. Incorporating large amounts of foreign vocabulary has not changed the language that much.

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>>51192089
>>51193129
>>51193231
These guys get it. It's a matter of theme. The aesthetic is often secondary.

>>51193199
French is much closer to its root language, which was mostly phonetic.

>>51193140
But that's not fiction.

>>51193231
What would come before steampunk chronologically, or is that when the divide between technology and normal people really starts to grow?

>>51193305
Its root language being Gallo-Roman, which is what happens when you smash the various languages of the native Gauls and Latin around for about five centuries and dash a sprinkling of Frankish on top of it with a few German loanwords here and there (and even then there are about seven different dialects).

Like I said, the key is that French was standardized about a century after it was made the sole language of governance (ousting Latin) where as English never had an Académie-like institution regulating the language. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just explaining why the languages differ so much in terms of consistency. And it's not because English is a special snowflake language.

>>51193325
I don't think he means it's a literal timeline. Thematically though, probably. I mean, the Industrialization that Steampunk focuses on began in the Renaissance, but not quite in earnest just then. Beforehand, it was cottage industries and themes that could usually be handled by most fantasy, depending on what you were looking for from a storytelling perspective.

>>51193231
but cyberpunk fails at being punk because the characters within it are mercenaries, deluding themselves into fighting against "The Man" when their fucking employer is a different "The Man"

even in the Gibson books they were always hunting for a payout, but that payout has to be bankrolled by somebody and that somebody is always "The Man" but three times removed so the dipshits can feel good about themselves

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>>51193304
>These guys get it. It's a matter of theme. The aesthetic is often secondary.
Reality begs to differ. Cyberpunk, Steampunk, Medieval Fantasy, Space Opera... It's pretty much all aesthetics at its core.

How can I prove this? Easy. You can look at an image and tell what genre it belongs to. No descriptions, no narratives. Just pure A E S T H E T I C S .

Damn, this thread makes me want to run a game where all the players are fabulously wealthy turn of the century British socialites who go on pointlessly extravagant adventures, fucking with, at, and on all manner of savage, peasant, and other less wealthy person than them.

>>51193445
That would actually be a ton of fun. Probably for all the wrong reasons, but still...

>>51193418
Fair point. I should have said "the aesthetics should be secondary."

>>51193129
Labor union conflicts could be pretty cool for a campaign. Street fights against Pinkertons. Gun battles against the Mafia in abandoned warehouses. Dealing with corruption, spies, and traitors in the union. Doing various types of dirty work for different companies, crime organizations, and political organizations. All while having to deal with PR to keep the press and the public on your side.

>>51182374
>(I will never understand how the fuck Tesla is steampunk)

Hipsters like both.

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>>51192637
>even recently they changed the spelling of oignon to be more consistent with how it's pronounced: ognon
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA FUCKING YOUTH NOT BEING ABLE TO LEARN A SINGLE WORD SO THEY HAVE TO CHANGE IT I SWEAR

>>51193384
And now you realize why punk is dead.

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>>51193553
You now realize this is literally the exact reaction of the Romans to the development of Vulgar Latin.

>>51179800
steampunk is just a dumb setting in general. its like a society that capped out technologically and is now just stagnating, or a society that devolved, which almost never happens.

>>51193445
It'd be like playing Rogue Trader without all the retarded 40k-isms.

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>>51193384
You know, I actually like this as an idea for a cyberpunk campaign. The PCs are a group of mercenaries working for a group of rebels trying to take down "The Man". It's a highly organized and professional group, led by an extremely cunning and well-connected woman who knows exactly how to strike at the weak points of the establishment. They eventually succeed and bring about a new revolution, but then discover that their boss was actually running the rebels like her own PMC and is using them to consolidate her own power, and rule through her own corporations (which she owns under a pseudonym). She might even invite the PCs over to a banquet, politely thanking them for their help in making her the de facto führerin. If the PCs decide to rebel against her, she will laugh in their faces.

Might make for a good villain, pulling the old bait-and-switch on the PCs. It will also give the PCs a really solid reason to utterly hate her: people don't like being tricked. I freely admit that I made the BBEG a woman because strong, powerful women who have become wealthy through their own efforts and look good in business suits are my fetish.

>>51193649
They can advance all they want--in fact, advancement is often a major part of the story--but it all runs on the same power source and all uses the same aesthetic.

So what the fuck are you talking about?

>>51193325
It's where the class divide stops being peasant/noble and instead peasant/faceless-business-non-person.

>>51179949

It's supposed to be that way because at the time, the punk was generally seen as a villain and the inhibitor of progress. Only two world wars in dieselpunk and the dawn of the information era later is his position vindicated, and by then it's difficult for him to gain traction, but it also becomes possible for him to use the very means of technology itself in order to combat it.

For you see, punk is thematically tragedy, and if the punk won during the steam era, there would be no cyberpunk setting for later. Hence, he has to lose, and lose again when his words have more weight during the era of diesel, before he can win.

>>51193678
>but it all runs on the same power source and all uses the same aesthetic.
thats not how technological advancement works. if the people were smart enough to make a steam powered flying machine, they would be smart enough to create a more reliable and efficient fuel source.

out of all the "punk" settings, cyberpunk is the only one that actually makes sense, because it could very well be our current worlds not so distant future.

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I want more pike & shot fantasy, personally.

>>51193654
If you are running Rogue Trader with all the 40kisms you are doing it wrong from the start. All that stuff should be faint references a couple of hundred light years away while you fumble around the howling dark with a flashlight looking for the glint of gold and not get eaten in the process.

While wearing a bitchin' hat.

>>51192637
Fucking this.

English is objectively a stupid language and a bunch of goobledygook tho.

>>51193699
How is that going to work in a TTRPG that isn't a wargame?

Pikes aren't really a good weapon outside of formations, and neither is dedicated musket warfare. At best you'll get regular medieval fantasy parties but the fighter has two pistols he shoots before charging in with his greatsword.

>>51193699
>rock paper scissors, the warfare.
I wish pike and shot fags would leave 4chan, you shit up every conversation you get in with your autistic garbage, especially total war general on /vg/

>>51193695
>technological determinism: the post
You're one of those dudes who says that technologically stagnated fantasy worlds are shit no matter the context, are you?

If steam works for the society and they're still exploring how far they can push it, why bother finding a new fuel source? That makes no sense. It's like arguing that medieval European society makes no sense because they used wood as a fuel for so long; lazy bastards never invented coal as quick as they should have.

>>51193678
His argument makes no sense on any level.

>>51193695
>if the people were smart enough to make a steam powered flying machine, they would be smart enough to create a more reliable and efficient fuel source.
It's fantasy. I don't see you complaining that medieval fantasy commonly depicts plate armor yet ignore cannons and handcannons which were developed over 200 years beforehand.

>out of all the "punk" settings, cyberpunk is the only one that actually makes sense
Because it is ultimately the one that is most removed from our time period. Medieval fantasy is generaly unscrutinized because its so far removed from our current day. Steampunk is getting shit on ITT because it's too close to modern day and people can better spot the fantasy idiosyncrasies. Cyberpunk gets a free pass because its time period doesn't even exist, so it's much harder to point how fucking stupid its predictions about the future are.

>>51193699
>>51193726
Not the original poster, but pike and shot adventures are just cape and sword.

Do anglos understand what cape and sword is? Wikipedia doesn't have an english version for the article on the genre.

Sigh, I wish it would be like the old times when steampunk basically meant Arcanum by Troika and not this gay fashion.

>>51193767
>cape and sword
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_de_cape_et_d'%C3%A9p%C3%A9e
The English page translates it as "Swashbuckler". I guess I can kind of see it, assuming a swash is some sort of cape.

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>>51193695
You have to remember that tech development has been exponential for only a brief time period. Victorian Era is when the modern scientific methods really started being applied that has led to such advancement.

It took over 600 years for someone to invent a self-contained cartridge for firearms since the gun's inception much less the development of gunpowder.

Necessity drove scientific investment for most of the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. "More efficient" developments on tech that works just fine is a fairly recent behavior.

>>51193726
Are you seriously implying that a pike & shot setting is literally just about pike & shot combat and not about a specific post-medieval time period?

>>51193736
>I don't actually understand anything about how war was conducted in this time period but let me grossly simplify it with a shitpost

>>51193741
>If steam works for the society and they're still exploring how far they can push it, why bother finding a new fuel source?
I don't know. Why don't you ask real life? By your logic, they wouldn't have developed electric generators anytime last century.
>It's like arguing that medieval European society makes no sense because they used wood as a fuel for so long; lazy bastards never invented coal as quick as they should have.
You're actually implying that they didn't use coal just because they didn't want to, instead of the technological and logistic factors that prevented its significant usage? You're just as bad as the fool you're arguing with.

>>51193802
Well, I looked for novels in the spanish one, not films in the french one, so that explains why I didn't see this swashbuckler thing.

>>51193805
>It took over 600 years for someone to invent a self-contained cartridge for firearms
No, it didn't. Paper cartridges have existed for firearms basically since their inception. It was only until they could mass produce brass casing and develop a sophisticated gas-ignition systems for bullets that allowed them to make modern day bullet designs.

>hurr durr people wuz stoopid in da pass they din know science n sheeit

>>51182909
You mean water-, wind- or horse/oxpunk?

Gigantic mills that are used in elevators and pseudo-trains. Big industrial complexes for mass production. Big cities, bigger castles and huge churches for feudal wankery. Even more war because of the manpower increase caused by more efficient/upscaled farming.

After writing and thinking about it I have to say that it seemed a lot cooler when it first crossed my mind

>>51193811
>Are you seriously implying that a pike & shot setting is literally just about pike & shot combat and not about a specific post-medieval time period?
Well, if you go at it like that the 30 Years War (or whatever the equivalent is in whatever setting) would be a pretty awesome time to run around. You're just running around in Germany, fucking shit up on the paychecks of various nations. Today you might be fucking up Bavaria on the paycheck of France, tomorrow you might fuck up Brandenburg for Austrian coin. Today you set a Würtembergian opera house on fire for the Swedes, tomorrow you blow up a Hannoverian arsenal for the pope. All while pretending to be a good CathoLutheCalviProtestAnglican.

>>51193741
but it does make sense for "medieval" era fantasy settings to stagnate, especially if magic exists, simply because they haven't yet discovered anything that would allow them to create huge advancements. if you've already mastered steam powered flying, then you likely have advanced mathematics underway, and fairly decent understanding of other fine sciences, so it just doesnt make sense that you would stay in the steam powered era for more than a hundred or two hundred years.

>>51193766
thats because theres a very fine line between medieval and dark ages, that line being gunpowder. If you have a medieval setting without guns, thats actually the dark ages.

>>51193811
Not him but just call it early modern age fantasy instead of pike & shot. Anglos not having an actual separate term for the époque moderne and the époque contemporaine and having to use this "early" adjective is annoying but you can deal with it.

>>51193811
>why don't you ask real life?
Real life isn't relying on themes and aesthetic to maintain a status quo. It's kind of like how in Warhammer Fantasy one of the authors was quoted as saying "there are as many elves as the plot requires."

In Steampunk, steam-driven technology will literally go as far as the author needs it to go. There's no limit to it. And especially in a setting where inventors are often driven by results-oriented investors (because in Steampunk inventors rarely ever have enough money to help themselves; it's an Industrialization "the few and the many," thing) they have no reason to look for a new fuel when their studies and efforts suggest steam will take them as far as they need to go. Unless, of course, the plot demands they come up with or find something new.

>you're just as bad as the fool you're arguing with
I was trying to show him the error in his logic. Wood worked as a fuel for many peasants, so they never thought to find a new one; many were busy trying to handle their own shit. Now I will certainly admit to not knowing how it was discovered that coal acted as a fuel, but when it was convenient--or when wood-burning wouldn't work any more--I do know that many industries switched. I don't imagine literally every person ever switched to coal because it was better, and that's what I was trying to illustrate.

>>51193695
Good kind of steampunk is more about exploring implications of industrialization on society rather than sci-fi powered by steam.

>>51193811
look man if you wanna role play as the three musketeers be my guest, pike and shot fucking sucks.

>cavalry counters gunners
>gunners counter infantry
>infantry counters cavalry
>this is in no way rock paper scissors warfare.

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>>51193874
>that's because there's a very fine line between medieval and dark ages, that line being gunpowder

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How many times are we going to keep making this exact thread?

It's effectively "solved" at this point, more so than even edition wars and 40k bitching.

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>>51193855
I would play the shit outta oxpunk.

>mfw revolting against those pesky nobles and knights in the name of the good king

>>51193912
What about cannons?

>>51193923
Except it's not, you retard. Otherwise we wouldn't have some of the discussion we're having.

Go shitpost somewhere else.

>>51193892
>Not him but just call it early modern age fantasy instead of pike & shot.
No, fuck you.

>>51193912
War is never as cut and dry as you're describing, you gamist historical retard.

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>>51192524

More then you would believe.

>>51193920
yea nice picture my dude, lets hear the difference between medieval and dark ages then. It's just the invention of gunpowder and the widespread of adoption of monotheism, thats it.

>>51179949
This is a gay idea, and theres nothing wrong with playing a Jules Verne inspired character.

>>51193912
Aye, on the mass combat level.
On the personal, small-group vs small-group level, it's not as true.
Early Modern guns are only game-changers in massed numbers, and even then, a Rogue with a brace of pistols is pretty neat, aye?

Also, if army vs army combat is very rock-paper-scissors it makes it simpler if the players end up operating on that level

>>51193946
artillery is mushrooms, it beats pussies that don't have as much of it as you, and who don't know how to advance.

>>51193954
Nice argument, faggot. Pike&shot is not an historical era, it's a combat formation and a videogame. Don't fucking call it that if the combat formation is not gonna be related with your story besides sharing a timeline. There's even a better term, swashbuckler, if you don't want to use an historiographic term.

>>51193954
>War is never as cut and dry as you're describing
sun tzu would like to have a word with you

>>51193975
I think it depends on the tone of the game.
You could run "you're all bored, wealthy playboys" and "you're all down-and-outs" type games within what most people would understand as "steampunk"

There's even room for variance, with stuff like Mr Birling-esque new-money rich folk and nobles who have fallen from their status

>>51193976
true enough, table top games wouldn't be operating on an army vs army level 90% of the time. So with that in mind I suppose you could have a fun time in pretty much any setting. but if you wanted to do pike and shot, why not just add in magic and do a warcraft style setting?

>>51193874
Actually majority of high fantasy settings portray magic (of wizardy kind) as science and technology relying on natural laws just like our technology. Most clever ones do explain why magical industrial revolution hasn't happened or is just bad idea, but sadly that is very rare.

>>51193925
I bet they don't even kno what a good season for crops is. How can people like them hope to be good leaders to us?

>>51193970
The primary difference--among fucking many, because there is no such things as "the dark ages," and anyone who claims otherwise is fucking ignorant--is the socio-economic and leadership situation in Europe.

What you refer to as "the dark ages," was an era of dismay and petty warlordship. Rome had just fallen, the Near East was flourishing, and in Europe the lack of centralized leadership guaranteed a degree of rampant warfare and crime.

What you're likely referring to as "the medieval age," is when we saw a boost in health, agriculture, and centralized leadership in the form of Kings and "Emperors," as opposed to petty warlords. Most of this change was felt best by about 1000-1100 CE.

Though why I'm correcting your retardation is because "the dark ages," weren't really a thing. Most of what I described took place mostly in Central Europe. For a lot of Mediterranean, Iberian, and even Northern Europe, this time period went on--and in the cases of some cultures, vastly improved--completely as normal.

Good Christ, go read a fucking book.

>>51194034
>warcraft style setting

Pretty sure anon wanted to keep it a bit "historical", at least on the aesthethics, besides the magic thing.

>>51182754

I'm glad his wife died, and I wish he would follow her to hell.

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>>51194034

Warcraft is thematically closer to the early 20th century then it is to the medieval or even Victorian era.

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>>51194045
>because there is no such things as "the dark ages,"
If I can be pedantic, a "dark age" is a historic term to refer to a period we have very little information on. The Egyptians had a Dark Age, the Ancient Greeks had a Dark Age and the Middle Ages had a Dark Age, not because everything went to shit but because we know little to nothing about those periods. That term started becoming an entirely different thing among layfolk

>>51194045
>and centralized leadership in the form of Kings and "Emperors," as opposed to petty warlords
, which is why historians now avoid it.
>"Emperors"
You'd best be talking about Charlemagne

>>51194067
Blizzard just follows with WoW the 40k philosophy of "everything fits this setting if I say so".

>>51193874
>>51193970
Good god, this moron. Please don't ever discuss history again. You're at the stage where you need to just shut up and listen. First off, the traditional descriptor of the dark ages covers the 5th to 15th century. This is a time of massive technological progress, especially metallurgy, construction materials and even technologies like mechanical clocks and the fucking printing press. Even if you want to restrict the dark ages to the early medieval era, you're still looking at things like the blast furnace, huge advances in farming technology and even industry, like the water hammer or horizontal loom. There were numerous technological and social evolutions that made them very distinct time periods.

>>51194045
so gunpowder, monotheism, and warlords becoming feudal kings. you sure showed me.

>>51194080
>if I can be pedanctic
At least you admit it. Otherwise, stop that silliness young man. I knew what period he was referring to, because every retard does.

>Charlemagne
He was a man ahead of his time, but it doesn't change the fact that he was one king who happened to own a lot of modern France; when he died, his retarded culture's form of succession and his singularness in being so ahead of his time immediately ruined everything.

>>51194045
As my ancient and medieval historian friend likes to say "the Ostrogothic kingdom was really just sad Romans"

>>51194095
This, thank you.

>>51194101
Okay, so you're just shitposting. Thanks, you had me going for a while.

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>>51194003
>don't call it pike&shot because that's combat
>but call it swashbuckler
Eat shit, padre.

>>51194012
Go tip your fedora elsewhere, douchewad.

>>51194080
Not him, but most modern scholars do avoid the dark ages term for any of segments of the middle ages. Not even for the early middle ages. If only because no specialist likes his period to be associated with the connotations that "dark ages" has, among layfolk or elsewhere.

>>51194107
>when he died, his retarded culture's form of succession and his singularness in being so ahead of his time immediately ruined everything.
I cry myself to sleep every night over this.

>>51194110
Can you elaborate on this to someone who doesn't really know a lot about the Ostrogoths (other than that Odoacer dethroned Romulus Augustulus without using violence because he already de facto ruled the Roman Empire)?

>>51194067
Warcraft is just typical fantastic fantasy where tech level is intentionally inconsistent to allow more variety and imagination although it's more generic than imaginative setting.

>>51194128
A fair enough assumption, but my history degree didn't focus on "the dark ages," and even I know that title was bullshit.

One uppity socialite calls the era dark compared to his own, and now everything thinks is was just plague and murders everywhere.

>>51194057
well if you take away all the blizzard wank and warcraft lore/history, and just look at the setting itself, its pretty dam close to a pike and shot era with magic. maybe 100-200 years off in our own historical timeline.

Stormwind and iron forge are european style, kalimdor is a mixture of asia and "the new world", pandaria is just china, and northrend doesn't really fit because vikings would have been gone for hundreds of years.

>>51194124
>I don't know what the word "if" means

>>51194157
>I don't know what an aesthetic is
>I don't know how to describe a fantasy setting
>I don't know what eat shit means

>>51194095
aesthetically none of that offers anything to the game table. people still dressed the same and ate the same food, acted the same way, and had pretty much the exact same cultures they'd had for hundreds of years.

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>>51194178

>>51194124
there are a plethora of actual generals that have written throughout history that war is a very simple matter. but im sure you have a much better understanding of it than they did.

>>51194149
>kalimdor is a mixture of asia and "the new world"
Based purely on World of Warcraft, Durotar and The Barrens feel vaugely reminiscent of the Sahel to me. I guess it's just a mishmash of everything Europeans started colonizing?

>>51194131
I'm a filthy STEM degree myself, but from my understanding, its that A. the majority of people in the Ostrogothic Kingdom were ethnically Romans and B. the Ostrogoths adopted Roman customs, with their own spin.
Generally speaking, a foreign ruling class becomes more like their subjects than their subjects become like their rulers.

>>51182750
>>This guy is literally playing one of my ancestors
fucking keked.

>>51194142
The basic point was "no, not really, most scholars do not use those words". The last sentence was just an addendum, adding a reason to those contributed by other anons.

I do prefer Late Antiquity (before islam) and Early Medieval (after islam) and I don't understand why would anyone ever use Dark Ages.

>>51194195
yea ill just call up my homie from the 1100's to confirm what I said, gimme a few years for the mail to arrive cause he doesn't have a phone yet.

>>51179800
The steampunk aesthetic is cool, especially before it became popular. Games like Thief or to a lesser extend morrowind had cool steam-punk-ish vibes. The idea of steam powered machinery in a Victorian or Edwardian time of gas lamps is technically pretty cool.

Also steampunk isn't really a setting, more of an aesthetic. There is no one steampunk canon, mythology, cities, maps, creatures etc.

>>51194208
Yes that's basically it. The same happens with virtually every other germanic kingdom touching the mediterranean.

>>51194208
*culturally (maybe ethnically too, but that's less relevant)

>>51194219
Mine was mostly 18th- and 19th-Century Americas and Europe, with some obvious focus on the American West, Africa, and other places touched by Colonialism and Imperialism.

>>51194207
To be honest I wouldn't even try to analyze the influences. It's a setting based on all kinds random (including other fictions) things and trying to tie it to specific historical period is probably impossible.

>>51194207
its definitely a mish mash of places that were not next to each other in our world. I always found orcs to be a mixture of mongolian/eastern tribal warriors, they're a lot more organized and sophisticated than warhammer orcs. Tauren I believe represent North American aboriginal tribes, while trolls are Caribean and Night Elves are well...very unique, almost like a mixture of celt and arabian.

>>51182224
Where is my cyber deck and bionic limbs? I still have this shitty "smartphone"? We have the punk with none of the cyber.

>>51194275
I meant as a word, late antiquity and early middle ages (which often includes a good chunk of the former) are the acceptable names for what some people likes to call the Dark Ages.

For a setting, all periods of human history are good since most good stories can easily be adapted (specially if you're not playing a 100% historical campaign).

>>51194354
I wasn't disagreeing, just making a statement regarding my own focus to put context to some of my posts.

I've never known anyone--including actual historians I became familiar with when in school--who is comfortable trying a "full historical," game. We just don't know enough, especially in a lot of the earlier periods that people find quite romantic or engaging. Some anachronism is necessary to help players connect a bit better.

Also none of us wanted to to do the book-keeping that it would entail. The moment players do Player Character Things, you're in alternate history and might as well not give a fuck.

>>51194340
It's coming up with cyber limbs (currently inferior compared to natural ones though) being already available to those who can afford them and early virtual reality already working out pretty well.

>>51194149

Stormwind's frontline infantry unit is a helmet-wearing, radio-equipped, rifle-totting soldier who looks a lot like a Great War infantryman who is in turn supported by mechanized cavalry and aircraft, as are the Gnomes' (a bit they look more like Napoleonic infantry wearing space helmets) and Goblins'. It's as though these races in Warcraft continued to advance in military technology without advancing at all culturally, which given the breakneck speed that technology is advancing (much of it following the "solution looking for a problem" mindset of development), is probably not too unreasonable.

It's like Tsarist Russia immediately before the revolution, where you had dudes with pikes and chainmail running around with tanks and cossacks like a bad game of Civilization.

>>51194207
Durotar, Mulgore and the Barrens were basically your classic north american western desert in Warcraft 3. Durotar stayed basically the same in WoW, while the other two got changed probably for variety. The Barrens got Sahel'd, probably in order to justify fauna like lions, giraffes, etc. Mulgore was made way more green in order to better justify why the tauren went there and to follow the ever increasing amerindian vibe of the tauren (that, granted, was already there in WC3).

>>51194418
It's hard to pin down what the actual tech base of Warcraft is due to the devs saying that they add in things because it's cool, not because it makes sense story wise. There are things that are included in gameplay that show up once and never again, like flying a hovering plane that has machine guns and rockets that can annihilate entire infantry regiments.

>>51194379
I've been in some historical games (often one shots). None of them run by an actual historian. The DM is always either someone who doesn't give a shit about history and treats it just like another setting (like a novelist or a movie maker would) or your classic guy obsessed with a period and does the book-keeping for fun. The first kind gets a bit shy and intimidated if you mention you studied history in any form (before you complain or anything). The second is better but sometimes doesn't understand why you don't know jack shit about WW1 guns, even when you insist that your specialty is on ancient history.

>>51194556
All of my historical-based games are the former. In fact, I often introduce low-key supernaturalism (no blantant wizards or anything like that, but I'm not afraid to introduce a Cherokee Medicine Man who's ability to speak with the spirits MIGHT actually be real in an American West game, for example) where possible to encourage my players to not worry about creating alternate history scenarios.

I've never been in a game run by the latter. I imagine it would be a bit irritating.

>>51179949
What would you call an adventure that was literally "Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea"? Big steam-powered submarine, crazy sea monsters, combat with a warship of the day, visiting ancient underwater ruins, etc.

Captain Nemo is/was actually a champion of the downtrodden (befitting your interpretation of "*-punk"), but it's more described as backstory, rather than being a focus of the book's adventures themselves.

>>51194604
>All of my historical-based games are the former. In fact, I often introduce low-key supernaturalism where possible to encourage my players to not worry about creating alternate history scenarios.
Yes I do more or less the same. Depending on the players I don't include actual supernaturalism at all since I've met a lot of people uncapable of understanding the middle ground between no magic and fireballs, but that's it. But I always make the point that they can change history whenever they want (and so do I).

>I've never been in a game run by the latter. I imagine it would be a bit irritating.
It's okay as long as you don't mention you have any historical background until the game has finished, and let them have fun DMing. I can of course empathize with people being passionate about a period and you sometimes learn a couple of things.

Also I'm sure there's someone out there obsessed with period but sensible enough to understand that not all historians work on the field he likes.

>>51194307
Nah, Night Elves are pretty explicitly Korean in everything from their culture, their architecture, and their food. However, the Highbourne were basically 100% Greco-Roman.

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>>51194739
>a lot of people incapable of understanding the middle ground between no magic and fireballs
Ew.

>>51194604
>but I'm not afraid to introduce a Cherokee Medicine Man who's ability to speak with the spirits MIGHT actually be real in an American West game, for example

That sounds much worse than The Wild West,But With Wizards. Do a fantasy setting or don't.

>>51194761
im not seeing the Korean thing. I said Celt because of their culture actually, druids and priestesses, worshipping animal gods and the moon, hunter/gatherer/warrior mentality +living in the woods. I said arabian because of their general look, the jewelry they wear, they ride giant tigers and excel in ranged combat/assassination. Granted I know jack shit about Korea so maybe you're on to something.

>>51194848
See >>51194827. Variety is the spice of life, and sometimes a middle ground can be quite nice.

>>51194739
>>51194827
Conan the Barbarian is a perfect example of the middle ground between no magic and fireballs.

>>51194625

He was not a champion of the downtrodden, he was an Indian prince with a god complex rebelling against the British occupation of India.

Jules Verne was french and had no problem writing about that but most of the first English translations leave out those little details because...well. The English and hail the Empire.

>>51194887
I like real life "supernatural" (that very likely isn't supernatural at all) more, ie. ghost stories.

>>51194917
But he also provides help to Greeks rebelling against Ottoman rule, and takes pity on a poor pearl-diver with zero equipment by giving him a lifetime's worth of pearls. I'm not saying he's Charity incarnate, but he's not your "whip the peasants" type Lord.

Besides his personal megalomania, he seems to have had a fondness for poor people rebelling against unjust political tyranny (his own tyranny as captain notwithstanding). Is his situation that much different from a jacked-up street samurai leading a crew of operators with equipment costing more than the average neo-city downtrodden pleb will see in their entire lifetime? The same crew that, yeah, takes on some jobs for the corps, but on the other hand probably longs for the corps to fall and crumble to pieces, and does whatever they can to see that happen?

Remember that not every social rebel necessarily comes from the bottom of the slums; many of the world's most famous social revolutionaries were born in relative privilege, and contemporary authors liked to include them in their stories; for example, the main character Hugo in Sartre's Les Mains Sales ['Dirty Hands'] is the son of a wealthy businessman, but is a member of the Communist revolutionaries (although he is a poor fit, it's more because of his own mental failings and naivety, not his situation of birth).

>>51194866
Kimchi-eating, hanbok-wearing, animist-but-most-offer-reverence-to-a-single-deity, Torii-building hermits whose warrior-leader fought at the frontlines in the style of their people's famous horseback archery. And their buildings are pretty much just Korean/Japanese buildings made more fantastic, and tigers are a cultural icon for Koreans.

They have almost nothing that actually relates to Celts other than "muh nature worship" bit, in terms of their greater culture. And Arab is just wut.

>>51194625
I thought that the Nautilus was powered by electric batteries, which was considered ultra futuristic?

>>51195300
My bad, it was. But all the other ships at the time would have been powered by sail or steam, and the interior of the Nautilus is decorated in a lavish Beaux-Arts style, commensurate with the age of steam and early electricity.

>>51195191
well like I said I know jack shit about korea, but that does all check out and makes a lot of sense. I can't help but still see the celt influence in religion, because Elune definitely isn't their only revered god. But based on what you said there I would say hands down highborn are 100% korean. Kaldorei and Sindorei branched out slightly into other influences.

>>51195434
Wut. The Highbourne are 95% Greco-Roman. It's the Kaldorei that are Korean. Also, no, Elune isn't their only revered god, but other than RIP Cenarius, they have no other deity, simply Ancients which they venerate. Which is pretty much 100% of Korean spirituality works, especially out in the country.

A decent amount of the population -- moreso than any other East Asian nation -- gives at least lip service to Christianity, while a third of the population actually considers themselves actively Christians. But even that group still gives respect to Sindo, and the village shaman is one of the most important roles in any rural Korean community. And while both genders can be a shaman, a female shaman do have certain rites that are exclusive to them, and over the past several centuries, they've come to overwhelming outnumber male shaman. To the point that the term in modern Korean for a male shaman is "male shaman," while women are just "shaman."

Other than using the word druid, there's really not much that really has anything more than a passing resembling to Celtic polytheism.

>>51194625

Pulp.

>>51195638
Well, I should say Korean with some of the trappings of Norse paganism. But that's pretty much limited to the World Tree. But that's a really just for the same, since that's far from an exclusive idea. Even the Koreans have their holy sandalwood, probably loosely inspired by the Chinese Jian-Mu.

>>51194866

On religion, the Night Elves' faith is actually the closest thing Warcraft has to Christianity, not necessarily thematically, but on a mechanical level they worship a singular Goddess that they believe to be the creator of the universe whose presence on earth was known through her demigod son. And recent materials in legion hint that they might possibly be correct. Notably, it's starting to gain traction with the citizens of Gilneas and other human individuals, who believe the light to be an extension of her will in a kind of holy trinity.

It can be done much more tastefully. Imply a boiler, but don't go overboard with pointless exposed gears.