ITT things that tick you off

>>51150453
>http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/removeCurse.htm
>Certain special curses may not be countered by this spell or may be countered only by a caster of a certain level or higher.
And your GM is a jackass.
Also
>Expecting D&D to have a magic system consistent with any setting not specifically designed to play D&D in

>>51150453
Chop off the fighters hands

>>51150453
Ugh, I know, right? How do so many GM's fail to grasp that not all difficulties classify as a valiant struggle. Just because the GM makes your life hard, doesn't mean it's an inherently good thing for the game. Too many of them get trapped in a juvenile headspace of "I can make this so COOL by fucking with them!" And it's 99% not fun zone

>>51150453
I feel like OP didn't bother to read the rules before deciding to make up a story about a thing that might happen in a D&D game.

>>51150453
The whole "you can't take off the cursed item" always seemed a bit dumb to me.
How about instead making cursed shit more powerful than non-cursed shit, but with heavy drawbacks.
Like a Greatsword that strikes true (+x to hit and damage), but every person you kill with it reduces your strength by one, permanently.
Though I can think of a few ways to game that mechanic, it is just an example.
Hell, maybe it's a good thing that curses have loopholes, to reward the players for being smart?

>Midway through campaign
>Playing bard
>Party has to help a giant win a duel against another giant without interfering mid-duel.

Tell the group OOC that my bard still knows vicious mockery and even though it's 1d4 it'll at least help out a tiny bit

>"No anon! We can't cast spells!"
>"But it's verbal only. And there's a crowd of rowdy onlookers. Of course people are going to be screaming stuff"
>"The giant would know you're casting magic dumb ass! He's taking damage!"
>"It's 1d4 damage from words. I don't think he'd notice that over our giant trying to punch him in the face to death"
>Entire group jumps down my throat

It was just a passing idea and I didn't care too much one way or the other but it baffled me that they all thought it was a bad idea

>>51150958
>How about instead making cursed shit more powerful than non-cursed shit, but with heavy drawbacks.
Can we make the thread about this now?

>>51151115
>Cast vicious mockery anyways
>Giant immediately stops fighting and picks you out of the crowd and crushes you instantly.

>>51151115
>I'm going to get stoned before going to the game session/class/work/church/grandma's/place-where-it's-socially-unacceptable!
>No anon, don't. It's a bad idea.
>It's fine. Nobody will know, because reasons!

Just because you have a totally legit reason to think you will won't get caught, doesn't mean anything.
Ask every criminal ever filmed on a Dumbest Criminals show.

You have to weigh the benefits versus the risk.
Violating the rules of a fight between giants that's important enough for you to want to cheat vs. 1d4 damage to a giant
Your party was right.

>>51151115
Holy fuck, that's autistic. Vicious mockery isn't casting spells, it's just shouting. You are just so good at it that your enemy gets so embarrassed it's hurtful.

>>51151814
Oh.
I didn't know that
Nevermind this >>51151800
Your party is stupid.

>>51150549
>The fighter cannot shitpost in casters vs. martials threads if you disable his hands

>>51151633
I'm planning on doing this with my players. AN important plot piece is in fact a really old cursed weapon. Make it better than all the other weapons but its slowly reducing the users saves

>>51152016
As long as the curse is, at least in way, identifiable, that's cool.
Since it's an important plot item, you could make it difficult to identify if you wanted, but not impossible.

To me, the whole fun of cursed items is the balance between caution and desire.
When GM's seemingly curse for the sake of cursing, it feels spiteful.

>>51151633
Ooh, reminds me of a magic item in my campaign
>+1 magic greatsword that belonged to an enemy of the party
>It gives weird visions of the future to the party member that carries it, visions that may or may not happen
>Secretly an evil sentient sword trying to corrupt the party

>>51151847
Its a fucking spell.

>>51153593
>Spell's only component is to shout insults.
>While standing in a crowd of people yelling, screaming, and shouting at the battle
>Is somehow not the perfect opportunity to stealthily cheat the fight.

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>>51150549
sounds like a plan famalam.

>>51153648
And its still a FUCKING SPELL. It's still fucking magic.

1d4 isn't fucking worth that. That's Snidely Whiplash stopping 5 feet from the finishing line because he just HAS to cheat.

>>51153756
And why is that a bad thing? Like, there's nothing else to use that specific spell for the rest of the day and you need to take every advantage you can.

>>51153756
>That's Snidely Whiplash stopping 5 feet from the finishing line because he just HAS to cheat.
No, its Snidely Whiplash knocking over a few 2x4's into his competitor's path to buy him an extra second or two to win the race.

>>51153756
>stopping
How is casting the spell in complete stealth at range from concealement with no way to track it back to you to help your side win a fight a bad thing?

>>51153932
>>51154048
Think about it. To try and get a TINY advantage in the fight you introduce huge risk to yourself and the group by getting DQed from the fight.

Magic is detectable. It's not disguised. Sure, it might be hard to tell what a given spell is from incantation alone, that's what Spellcraft is for, but it's obvious when you're doing it. That's like saying you can't tell Inspire Courage from regular music. Of course you can. It's an insult that literally deals the damage of a solid punch, or a dagger blow. There's no way it could be mistaken for mere banter.

Hell, even if it needs a check to spot, you want to test a group of a hundred people vs your one roll?

>>51154119
>huge risk
Really?
>Magic is detectable. It's not disguised. Sure, it might be hard to tell what a given spell is from incantation alone, that's what Spellcraft is for, but it's obvious when you're doing it.
Except the components for the spell are literally just shouting something at a target and only the target would take damage. And unless you have dozens of high level wizards everywhere it'll be incredibly unlikely that anyone is going to bother wasting a spell slot on something so undetectable. That is, unless you're a railroading GM that refuses to let the players interact in any way with pre-planned events.
>Hell, even if it needs a check to spot, you want to test a group of a hundred people vs your one roll?
One, only like a max of eight people could be close enough to even hear the character with everyone around them, and even then they'll take massive penalties due to all the noise and the fact that they're paying attention to the fight and not to what the random person in the crowd a row behind them is shouting.

>>51154119
A giant wouldn't notice a human punch in the midst of a battle. Why should it notice a magically-damaging shout in the midst of a crowd? Both by setting logic and by game logic it makes sense for the giant not to notice; it's like expecting a galloping horse to respond to a flick of the finger, and it's only a very small portion of the giant's maximum hit points. As players, you are distinctly aware of the abstractions of hit points and damage, but that isn't the case for NPCs -- nor, as long as you aren't metagaming, even the PCs.

>>51154432
Not that guy, but you really don't get it, do you? Look at the scenario. You have giants fighting, obviously stronger than the PCs as they don't just kill the challenger outright the night before and solve the problem. Casting anything would incur the risk of getting smashed by a giant. Even if it's a low chance of detection, don't think there isn't a chance. And the 'help' you'd provide is merely 1d4 damage, enough to be noticed by the reciever as not coming from his opponent while not really helping at all the fight, as they're giants and probably have a lot of HP.

The thing stupid players don't get is that a small chance is still a chance. Don't pretend there won't be spot checks after you cast a damn spell in public, no matter how "sneaky" you think you're being. "I have a 10% chance of causing a near TPK, but it's worth taking down 2% of his health down!" is a retarded line of thought. If you account for the fact that you'd have to cast it multiple times to have any real impact, it becomes clearly suicidal.

>>51153756
>That's Dick Dastardly stopping 5 feet from the finishing line because he just HAS to cheat.

Fix'd

>>51150516
>Sometimes this spell just doesn't work based on your GM's whim :^)

Again, why does it exist in the first place if it's not going to do anything half the time? It's pointless mother-may-I bullshit.

>>51150958
I put in a cursed item for my players, and the paladin found it. It was a powerful longsword that was initially a +1 Flaming burst, but came with a curse that was too high for them to know at the time, since they were level 2.

Every time you kill a target, I would take a tally for just that person, and after every five tally marks I roll a d100 to see if their character has a dream. If they do, I ask them in private to roll a will save. It's not a high will at first but gets progressively moreso the more tally marks they acquire. Every failed willsave begins to make their character act more irrationally, believing this ancient sword is a legendary device useed by the gods to banish nonbelievers. Slowly, the target slips into madness and undergoes alignment changes.

Remove curse does work, but the caster for it needs to be 14th level or higher. They managed to rid the paladin of it, the curse, when lifted, in its dismissal deals 1d6 WIS and 1d6 CHA drain, that then has to be removed with a following remove curse of the same faith.

Truthfully, my party loved it. It added a moral conflict to the group when the pally was teetering on the edge of falling.

>>51154629
So. What were the players supposed to do during the fight? If they weren't allowed to interfere in any way the GM should have just wrapped it up by saying "this giant won." Besides, there is literally no chance of getting caught in this scenario. How would they get detected? Why would the giant stop mid-battle and run to attack the audience because he felt a tiny bit more of a punch timed with him getting hit in the face? Why is it that one person shouting is instantly singled out and discovered among a lively crowd of spectators?

>>51150958
I had something like that in one campaign. The Aegis of the Dutiful Warden. Really nice if well worn set of armor that fits the aethetic of the most uncivilized or criminal person in it's vicinity when not owned. It made the wearer immune to backstabs and other 'dishonorable' combat maneuvers, as well as better DR vs attacks from criminals and other wrongdoers, but gradually made the wearer more and more compelled to follow the law and to place themselves in the service of a ruler, and also gradually shifted into whatever form of armor is associated with law enforcement, justice and righteousness in the region. They were essentially created to trick barbarians and ne'er do wells into using it and becoming upright members of society by an ancient king

>>51155031
What's the downside?

>>51155074
Essentially if you don't find a way to remove it, you basically turn into a dredd clone who treats whatever the law of the land is as an unbreakable geas. Plus, most people don't really care to have their rogue/barb turn into a were-paladin

>>51154119
>Hell, even if it needs a check to spot, you want to test a group of a hundred people vs your one roll?
Are you the kind of imbred that would think if someone is walking around with an excellent illusion spell for a disguise, every single fucking passerbyer who isn't trying to particularly observe shit and just wants to go on with their day has to make a roll because they have a chance to notice it?

Ya I haven't fucking pulled this before, but your a no-fun faggot, a stupid one at that, plain and simple.

Logically put (to back up why you're such a fag), my scenario isn't even equivalent to yours(mine has the magic user more likely to be discovered honestly), because in anons case no one is even paying attention to the humans because they're all too absorbed watching a fight between other giants.

Plus, the very description of the spell says Vicious Mockery says it involves subtle enchantments. Not some great fucking display of flames or lights or noise or shit, subtle enchantments. Do you know what subtle means retard? It means; so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyse or describe. As in, something that normally wouldn't be simple to catch, but definitely wouldn't be recognizable unless it's very actively being looked for in a a roaring and load crowd of giants.

>>51151115
Anon, does your GM punish you guys actively for trying to be creative? That's a pretty solid idea you have, that disadvantage on a cantrip is definitely worth it. If he isn't proactively beating you guys for creativity, then you're group is just comprised of chickenshits.

>>51151115
You know, a very similar scenario happened in a campaign I was playing in. It was the party Fighter that had to win the duel against a giant. Guess what the Bard did.

Of course, our GM had established that there was a reasonably levelled spellcaster ready to punk him when he tried something. He still tried something, though.

I personally couldn't resist going one step further. When our Fighter ran out of hit points, I used Polymorph and turned him into a giant ape (with its own HP, you see). Out of character, the table thought this was a pretty cool thing to do. In character, the Fighter now thinks that's just a thing he does when he almost dies. I used the same trick later, so technically he's right.

>>51155190
You've convinced your fighter that he's Goku. Good shit.

>>51154833
Learn to read.
>>Party has to help a giant win a duel against another giant without interfering mid-duel.
Buffs, borrowing wondrous items the party might have, giving some tips on how to fight this particular giant, maybe even scrying to know how he fights and how to counter it. Stop acting as if you can only talk and nothing more unless you're in combat. You're just a shitty player.

Also, you're so certain your spell would be "undetectable!", without any real proof or reason to believe no one would ever roll spot even passively. Would you like to take a Stilled Save-Or-Die in the middle of the street? No, that's wly you have perception AND the save. If you at least cared enough to Silent Spell it, you MIGHT pass it off as another guy near you doing the trick. It packs the punch of a dagger for fuck's sake. You'd be mad if the GM said "and misteriously, you take 3 damage" every round if you were the one dueling. You'd scream bullshit and railroading, and yet here you are, trying to pull the retarded stunt. Your party was right and you should feel bad.

>>51151633
Not really considered cursed, but I did give my players an item that has a risk-reward mechanic attached. Basically, it let's the wielder cast a spell with negative effects on the target as a bonus action, but the spell also hits the wielder. For example, cast fireball as a bonus action and the wielder has to save for half. Gonna have to do a lot of on-the-spot rulings on less straightforward spells, but hopefully it won't end up monstrously overpowered.

>>51155241
The spell's description is literally 'subtle'. Also, these are fucking commoners. Even if they hear something strange they won't immediately run away to the Magic police because someone was yelling weird.

>>51154629
>"I have a 10% chance of causing a near TPK, but it's worth taking down 2% of his health down!" is a retarded line of thought.
This.
This whole post.

>>51154833
>What were the players supposed to do during the fight?
Excellent question.
Possibly distract the enemy giant, inspire their giant, or provide an environmental advantage or access to an improvised weapon?
It sounds a bit like a puzzle.
But without further detailed information about the scenario, I'd have to agree that "the GM should have just wrapped it up"
Even so, bad GMing doesn't make a stupid idea less stupid, just more understandable because of the boredom.

>there is literally no chance of getting caught in this scenario.
Objectively false.

>How would they get detected?
Why would they have a "no spells" rule with no way to monitor or detect for it?
Why would they advertise how they were detecting it and allow you to circumvent it?

>Why would the giant stop mid-battle and run to attack the audience because he felt a tiny bit more of a punch timed with him getting hit in the face?
Something about being viciously mocked so badly they take damage?
If, by spell description, the target has to hear and understand the mockery, then the giant would have reason to turn from the fight.

>Why is it that one person shouting is instantly singled out and discovered among a lively crowd of spectators?
I would put the difficulty to target the right shouter pretty high unless the giant had some clear means to do so.

>yfw you get swatted by a dumb giant because the bard wanted to expend a spell slot.

>>51155348
"That strange clown-like guy with shiny trinkets is saying strange stuff and the giant felt something hitting it. Looks like witchcraft and he's cheating." GUESS WHAT HAPPENS.

>>51150453
>I want to circumvent all challenge to this game
>Every roadblock can be solved with the click of my fingers

>>51155387
Just kinda lurking. but you're wrong about one thing. For vicious Mockery, the target just has to hear the mockery, not understand it.

>>51155422
That is false. More like
>That normal looking guy yelled such an insult at the giant that the giant visibly winced!

>>51155467
And only the giant would have an inkling of knowledge that something happened, but if they timed it to the other giants punches, I don't think it'd notice.

>>51155387
>>Why would the giant stop mid-battle and run to attack the audience because he felt a tiny bit more of a punch timed with him getting hit in the face?
>Something about being viciously mocked so badly they take damage?
>If, by spell description, the target has to hear and understand the mockery, then the giant would have reason to turn from the fight.
Then that giant gets hit by an AOO from the other giant currently trying to kill it.

>>51155387
>Possibly distract the enemy giant, inspire their giant, or provide an environmental advantage or access to an improvised weapon?
That sounds like interfering mid-battle.

>>51150453
Calling a magic item greatsword +2

>>51155511
The twist:
The greatsword is enchanted so that every time you hit someone two further enchanted "Greatsword +2" are created
Every time
with everyone

>>51155587
Hey, instant army-supplier.

>>51154700
I always remove it if I have a chance.

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>>51155450
Ah.
That's why I said "if".
So, the giant wouldn't be the one doing the detecting.

>>51155490
>Then that giant gets hit by an AOO from the other giant currently trying to kill it.
Yep, but it seems like the only distraction would be 1d4 damage, which is not likely to distract a brawling giant.

>>51155508
>That sounds like interfering mid-battle.
"How do help but not interfere?" is the puzzle.
Allowing opportunities for your giant to help himself might be midway enough, or not.
Tossing them a giant sword is interference.
"Accidentally" knocking over a stool so it falls within gripping range is less obvious.
Ask a judge.

>>51155610
>everytime you hit someone
>they probably die from the hit since it's a magic fucking greatsword
>2 swords now
>1/3 of the army is dead, but the other 2/3 has a magic greatsword

Is this advantageous or not? I can't tell

>>51155701
>I hit my friend lightly with the flat of the greatsword
>Zero damage, 2 more greatswords
>Repeat as needed.

>>51155701
>using replicating sword on YOUR ARMY
My got I thought all the retards went to /mlp/.

>>51155723
I assume he meant like, a good solid hit, man

>>51155738
GOTTA SUPPLY FAST THE ARMY IS MARCHING ON OUR CAPITAL

>>51155190
>In character, the Fighter now thinks that's just a thing he does when he almost dies. I used the same trick later, so technically he's right.
Your fighter is a good player, and so are you. God speed.

>>51155786
Then just have that person wear anime-tier thick pauldrons to hit over and over again. You have to remember that just because you rolled below the AC doesn't mean that your hit mysteriously completely missed the target. Most misses are hits that just don't do any damage.

>>51155832
fucking, FINE, man you're no fun

>>51153756
>And its still a FUCKING SPELL. It's still fucking magic.
So the fuck what? Does every commoner in your game have maxed out ranks in spellcraft? Does every person get a spot check to notice every single thing within 200 yards of them? You're exactly the kind of faggot that would get booted from any game anyone I know would run or play in immediately.

Go back to BG2. You clearly can't handle creativity.

>>51155786
>>51155701
This is another "All dem dead babies" moment.

>Every time
>with everyone

>>51155899
Would you kindly answer the following questions, sir angry anon?
Feel free to take a moment to breathe and also accept that I am not that anon.

>>51155387
>Why would they have a "no spells" rule with no way to monitor or detect for it?
>Why would they advertise how they were detecting it and allow you to circumvent it?

>>51155387
You sound like every DM who should never run a game. Go back to gaia and freeform your novel with the other 12 year olds.

>>51155883
Well if you wanna do it that way...
>Butchers kill the animals with a greatsword
>Hire adventures to all use these swords to route out a local Goblin village.
>Give someone one gold piece for 100 chickens and slaughter every single one of them.
>Or maybe you could just use the single one you have as a way for people on Death's row to contribute back to society. Chop off extremities as quickly as possible before they bleed to death.
>Use the 100 you do have to supply people in the war. You'll get thousands after a single battle.

>>51155958
>You sound like every DM who should never run a game.
How so?
Because I apply reason?
Even if there were unseen mages scrying to detect magic, they wouldn't be infallible or even high level unless this fight were super important.

I admit I didn't know the rules involved, but I'm not running that system.

>hey let's risk DQ by cheating
>don't worry, the cheating will be so minor that most likely no one will notice

Then why are you even cheating? You're risking the entire plan on something that's main virtue is "will have little effect."

>>51156029
Because you're actively restricting the player's options and giving entirely undeserved punishments in return.
>Pop a 1d4 ranged damage spell that has the 'subtle' description while in optimal conditions to avoid it being noticed.
>>Giant turns around and smashes the stand you're in, killing over two dozen people and ignoring his incredibly dangerous opponent in favor of vengeance against an unknown 2 points of embarrassment damage.

>>51155956
>Why would they have a "no spells" rule with no way to monitor or detect for it?
>Why would they advertise how they were detecting it and allow you to circumvent it?
Here let me answer your questions with questions:
>If their magic detection is so infallible as to be inviolate, how are the PCs supposed to be involved in the scene?
>If the PCs can't use anything they have at their disposal to actually alter the events unfolding in front of them, why are they watching these events and instead of doing literally anything else, in or out of character?

If you put a giant fight in the game and say "you need to make sure this giant wins", you can't just shit all over the party's available methods of altering the outcome. If you do this, you are shit. Period, end of discussion, go home and fuck yourself to death with a plunger.

Chiming in here, this whole debate seems really fucking silly to me. It's a clever way to subtly interfere into the duel - since the spell is described as subtle, only involves shouting obscenities and can greatly change the tide of the battle by granting the giant a disadvantage, the player should be rewarded for quick thinking, not punished.

>>51156029
>Because I apply reason?
You don't apply reason, though. You apply your own biases and a stultifying amount of binary assumptions to an event and declaring anything that isn't "the way you planned it" happening as impossible.

90% of the fun of running a game is making a problem and watching in horror/glee/confusion as the players come up with some plan you never would have. If you can't let the players play, then kindly sell your books and buy Diablo.

>>51156020
Why just limit it to a greatsword and just +2? Let's have +4 rusty dagger! And +3 longswords! And hell, let's throw on a +5 arrow for Infinite recovered ammo.

>>51156135
Wouldn't that result in a total collapse of the weapons trade due to anyone being able to access infinitely replicating weapons?

>>51156084
>>Pop a 1d4 ranged damage spell that has the 'subtle' description while in optimal conditions to avoid it being noticed.
Still magic.
Still a non-zero chance of getting caught.
Still a big downside with very little upside.

>>>Giant turns around and smashes the stand you're in, killing over two dozen people and ignoring his incredibly dangerous opponent in favor of vengeance against an unknown 2 points of embarrassment damage.
Maybe, low probability if the rules had worked that way "What'd you say 'bout my manhood!?"
Depends largely on the giant in question.

The swatting was a joke.
Like anon said, if it did happen, the other giant would get an AOO while the giant tried to figure out who said he was hung like a halfling. Then the fight would go on, mischief managed.

But the rules don't work that way.

>>51156086
>it is impossible to influence the duel beforehand, the party's only option is to personally participate

>>51155241
>You'd be mad if the GM said "and misteriously[sic], you take 3 damage" every round if you were the one dueling.

Out of character, yes. If I was a giant with more than 60HP and having a one on one duel with another giant I would just feel like he's hitting me harder than I thought he would.

Turns out that some people play these games to role play instead of being metagaming piece of shit contrarians like you.

>>51156234
That non-zero chance is so close to zero it doesn't even matter. Besides, every point matters when you can fight at your fullest all the way from 1000 to 1 HP.

>>51156234
Do you happen to be autistic by any chance? Not even trying to offend, just asking.

>>51156086
>>If their magic detection is so infallible as to be inviolate, how are the PCs supposed to be involved in the scene?
Perhaps by not using magic?
Perhaps by the methods I suggested in that same post?

>>If the PCs can't use anything they have at their disposal to actually alter the events unfolding in front of them, why are they watching these events and instead of doing literally anything else, in or out of character?
If that were the case, which it might not have been, then the GM should have skipped the fight.
Like I suggested in that same post?

>If you put a giant fight in the game and say "you need to make sure this giant wins", you can't just shit all over the party's available methods of altering the outcome. If you do this, you are shit.
I didn't.
The GM in question might not have.
Stop ignoring all non-magical options.
Stop being a silly sausage.

>High seas piracy game
>Playing as a member of the royal navy
>Catch my nemesis, lady swashbuckler
>She pleads her belly and gets off, to back to piracy again

Happened awhile back and I'm still fucking pissed. As if we didn't have enough shit now with the ghost pirate player.

>>51156120
>greatly change the tide of the battle
>1d4 damage to a giant
Pick one
Otherwise, I agree.

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>>51156332

>>51156130
>You apply your own biases and a stultifying amount of binary assumptions to an event and declaring anything that isn't "the way you planned it" happening as impossible.
Point out where I did that.
Then point out on this doll where I touched you.

>>51156313
So I should instead whip out a bow with invisible arrows and start sniping from a distance?

>>51155131
>were-paladin
My sides

>>51154700
Welcome to the Martial-town casterfag. We have to play Mother-May-I to even try to keep pace with you and you bitch at us for even daring to try.

>>51156468
The part where you say that any and all magical interference, no matter how subtle or undetectable, will be incredibly risky and have very little effect on the battle overall.

>>51156492
Meant to reply to >>51156436

>>51156270
>That non-zero chance is so close to zero it doesn't even matter.
What are you basing this assumption on?
The magical protection involved in the giant fight remains an unknown.
What sort of things can detect "subtle" spells?
How can the PCs be certain those things aren't present?
Answer those questions, and we're closer to being effectively zero.

>Besides, every point matters when you can fight at your fullest all the way from 1000 to 1 HP.
True enough.
But is it worth the risk?
We don't even know what was riding on the situation.

>>51156521
The fact that it might also cause the next attack to miss is a good risk. That's anywhere between 2d6+4 to 3d10+8 damage NOT happening to your giant.

>>51156292
>Do you happen to be autistic by any chance?
Nope.
I just think.
And when I think, I don't stop halfway.

Was it my use of "non-zero chance" that prompted the question?

>>51156521
Why do we assume that Vicious Mockery can even be detected by an outside party, when no such means, to my knowledge, exist in 5e?
Why do we assume that giants - people not known for being a race of intricate spellcasters - have the means to discern subtle spells from shouting? Is it because you pulled those possible means out of your ass?
Why do we assume that if there's "some" risk of those means both existing and being present, we shouldn't take this risk? Is it because adventurers are known for being wusses, not taking any risks at all, or shit MIGHT happen?
Why are you such a faggot?

>>51156562
Sure. %20 chance its detected by some magical doohickey. Is a %20 chance of failure worth the chance to make an opponent gain disadvantage on their next attackwhen each attack tears off great chunks of HP?

>>51156358
Ah, thank you.
I stand corrected.

Guys
Guys listen:
Unless we know the entire context of the situation (what mages where there, what kind of giants they were, what could have been done beforehand, etc) we can't decide on jack shit

>>51156590
Wait, don't most magic detection spells only work on magic objects?

>>51156468
>So I should instead whip out a bow with invisible arrows and start sniping from a distance?
How do you know if they have True Seeing or other means of detecting them?
Do the arrows stay invisible after reaching their target?
Can you retrieve them unnoticed at the end of the fight?
Are you actually incapable of actions that don't involve any magic?

>>51156586
>Why do we assume that Vicious Mockery can even be detected by an outside party, when no such means, to my knowledge, exist in 5e?

Because it has Verbal components and causes 1d4 damage and Disadvantage. Surely the giant being targeted would get some kind of roll to notice he's being magically influenced, even if he can't tell where from.

>Why do we assume that giants - people not known for being a race of intricate spellcasters - have the means to discern subtle spells from shouting?

Most giants have average Int, and Cloud Giants are innate spellcasters.

>Why do we assume that if there's "some" risk of those means both existing and being present, we shouldn't take this risk?

Because the benefit is d4s of damage and Disadvantage on a failed Wis save (something most breeds of giant don't lack in) at the cost of being caught-out doing the ONE THING you've been EXPLICITLY ASKED not to do.

>>51151115
Should've done it anyway

>>51156667
How do you know if this kobold isn't actually Tiamat in disguise? She could wipe the floor with you, you know.
Yeah, I know that the odds are really low that this random kobold in a god forgotten ruin is actually Tiamat, but what if? I mean, you never know, right? Tiamat probably can polymorph into kobolds, so there's a non zero chance of her being that kobold. So why don't we just go home instead of fighting those monsters?

This is how retarded you sound right now.

>>51156492
>The part where you say that any and all magical interference, no matter how subtle or undetectable, will be incredibly risky
What later explained to be "subtle" magic still *can be* and *might be* detected and that is *a risk*.

>and have very little effect on the battle overall.
The one spell we were discussing, you delusional ape, dealt 1d4 damage to a giant.

Plus also a disadvantage in the next attack roll, apparently.
Making it a bit better.

>>51156702
But this isn't a cloud giant. The target doesn't even need to be aware about the shouting to be effected, just hear it. If you time it right he'll be so distracted by getting hit with a sword he won't notice the headache he got.
>Verbal components
The verbal components are literally insulting words. How is that different from what a crowd of onlookers would shout during a battle like this?

>>51156746
Oh, so you didn't even know what vicious mockery actually does. Tell me, why should your opinion be even listened to, if you know fuck all about the system?

>Be in middle of crowd, nobody is paying attention to you
>Do thing
>Everyone knows you did it

Yeah, you're fucking stupid. Or do you think shit like Hex and Bestow Curse auto fail when used outside of combat?

>Want to Hex a guy because reasons
>Do so
>He stops what he's doing, looks right at you from where ever you are and says "stop that man!"

Again, no. Fuck you.

>>51150453

>At session 0
>Players say they want a certain style of game
>Sure!
>Now let's make some characters!
>Characters generated are completely unsuited for the sort of game they just said they want to play.
>Point this out to the group
>You are a shitty, railroading, control freak GM.

>>51156586
>Why do we assume that Vicious Mockery can even be detected by an outside party, when no such means, to my knowledge, exist in 5e?
Can "subtle magic" be detected in 5e?

>Why do we assume that giants - people not known for being a race of intricate spellcasters - have the means to discern subtle spells from shouting?
Unless the PCs are all giants, unlikely, there are non-giants present, some might be monitoring the fight.
Why have a no magic rule and then not enforce it?

>Is it because you pulled those possible means out of your ass?
Magic can be detected.
Spells can be detected.
Large portions of the scenario are unknown.
I am just stating there is risk.

>Why do we assume that if there's "some" risk of those means both existing and being present, we shouldn't take this risk?
>>51156702
>Because the benefit is d4s of damage and Disadvantage on a failed Wis save (something most breeds of giant don't lack in) at the cost of being caught-out doing the ONE THING you've been EXPLICITLY ASKED not to do.
This

>Is it because adventurers are known for being wusses, not taking any risks at all, or shit MIGHT happen?
Clearly the case with the rest of his party, wasn't it?

>Why are you such a faggot?
I post on 4chan

>>51156771
We don't know what kind of giant this is, OP never said. It's different because it's causing damage and Disadvantage. Why wouldn't he get a check to notice? He's making Will saves against it. Even if he doesn't know it's specifically the Bard, knowing that someone somewhere is casting spells on him is probably enough to violate the one and only rule you fucking had, "don't interfere with the duel."

>>51156590
>Is a %20 chance of failure worth the chance to make an opponent gain disadvantage on their next attackwhen each attack tears off great chunks of HP?
This is the question.
I dunno.

>>51156724
Listen man, if you have checked and are fairly certain there are no enforcers there or that they can't see or detect your invisible arrows that dissolve into the air after hitting the target, go for it.
Good plan. I hope it works out for you.

But pretending the world is stupid because you want your character to do x and succeed?
Prepare for disappointment.

>>51156880

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/65159/how-visible-noticeable-is-psychic-damage-and-spells-which-inflict-it

The answer in there. On a failed save you don't even know you're being attacked.

>>51156777
Because I applied reason to the situation and qualifying statements that preserved the integrity of my assertions, as well as my being clear on that point the entire time.
My points remain valid.
Whereas you just get angry and insult, pointlessly.

>>51156771
>But this isn't a cloud giant.
[citation needed]

>>51156835
Yeah, I'm the not-autistic guy people are fighting with over this, and I admit the only risk is not from the crowd or the giant (now that I know) but from whoever is in charge of making sure no magic is used.

>>51150549
>>51151877
>>51156488
I knew we should have chopped off his hands

Things that tick me off?
GMs that constantly throw dangers at you while being frugal with rewards. Like my last group:
>Party is around level 2 at the start and get to level 5 before a TPK.
>Constantly set against 4-5 encounters per day even while in a "safe" city.
>Literally every night we are woken up by random unrelated assassins with class levels and every afternoon we are ambush by another unrelated group of people with class levels.
>Seriously, we have done nothing yet everyone wants to murder us for some reason.
>Each encounter is at +1 CR at minimum in a party with only one caster (a cleric who is forced to healbot or we will all die).
>Almost no loot to replenish used supplies.
>the EXP is nickel and dimed before being split six ways (4 PCs, 2 NPCs).
>Ends up with a TPK and the GM blames us for being reckless. This is after we hide in a building with constant surveillance but fail to see a poison-bolt crossbow sniper and the dozen barbarians surrounding the building.

>>51157035
Your link goes on to say that, below half health, your insults are causing the target to bleed from their ears and nose. That seems pretty obvious.

>>51157059
Cloud Giants are most often not in the material plane and even if they were it would make more sense for a normal hill giant or mountain giant to be the one fighting in an arena to the death for cash.

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>>51157114
Heh
As if that's stop them.

>>51156702
>Because it has Verbal components and causes 1d4 damage and Disadvantage. Surely the giant being targeted would get some kind of roll to notice he's being magically influenced, even if he can't tell where from.

If we go with a 5e Hill Giant, their Int is 5 and their Wis is 9, not nearly good enough to get a roll on that.

>Most giants have average Int, and Cloud Giants are innate spellcasters.

Solid point. We don't know the variety of giant in question. I doubt it was a Cloud Giant given their brawl.

>Because the benefit is d4s of damage and Disadvantage on a failed Wis save (something most breeds of giant don't lack in) at the cost of being caught-out doing the ONE THING you've been EXPLICITLY ASKED not to do.

Looking at the rules, most giants DO lack in Wis.

>>51157151
>Giant is bleeding from ears and nose
>He was just recently hit with a club heavier than my horse. It was probably from internal bleeding.

>>51157151
I agree, seems up to how the DM would fluff it. Depending on the length of the fight I don't really see why a bloody nose would seem to strange in an ogre fistfight. I'd have a hard time ruling this as dangerous for the party because of the way the spell is described, and according to that ruling. I'd allow it for sure. It's subtle, spellcraft doesn't exist anymore, and detect magic in 5e either takes 10 minutes or last a few rounds at best so it would probably mostly be used for detecting magical items on the combatants.

The only response to the GM acting in this situation, (I do this but only in high magic cities)
Arcane Spell towers all throughout the city, with Detect Magic and scry on at all times so they can detect every spell being cast and who cast it.

2. How smart was the receiving creature? An int of 5 or 6, even 7 would NEVER allow the giant to be smart enough to pick out one person from a crowd who was shouting with everyone else, as it would not be smart enough to even know that person was using magic. Its Wisdom would not be high enough for it to think that there's magic involved in the first place. Your GM was being a whiny shitbitch about this whole situation.

>>51157158
>material plane
Assumption

>it would make more sense for a normal hill giant or mountain giant
Assumption

>fighting in an arena
Assumption

>to the death
Assumption

>for cash.
Assumption

Granted, assuming that's true, you're totally right; it's probably not a Cloud Giant.

>>51157151
I mean, he is below half health, in a fight with another giant. Bleeding from the facial areas seems par for the course.

>>51157238
Regardless, every OTHER giant is severely lacking in the mental stats department. So let's not assume that the Giants in question are the exception and not the rule.

>>51157186
>implying the martials that argue in caster vs martial threads are smart enough to do that

Here's how I would do it.

>ogre fight!
>after a couple swings, vicious mockery starts happening in the crowd
>no spellcraft, no reason to be suspicious
>no detect magic, no reason to be suspicious
>either bad guy ogre notices and protests with no proof, making him look like a wuss and the crowd turns on him
>or bad guy ogre doesn't notice, and the only person who knows in the caster of vicious mockery

It would be a really good time to let that player shine for a bit with a creative solution to a problem. As long as cheating is within his character.

>>51157213
>It's subtle, spellcraft doesn't exist anymore, and detect magic in 5e either takes 10 minutes or last a few rounds at best so it would probably mostly be used for detecting magical items on the combatants.
This one sentence has done more work to sway me than a dozen posts of witless whinging.

Is there a way in 5e for concentrating spellcasters to detect any spells cast in an area, even subtle ones?

>>51157191
I also doubt it was a Hill Giant, given that their brawl was apparently scheduled ahead of time, and if it wasn't a Cloud then it definitely wasn't a Storm. That leaves Stone, Fire, and Frost, none of which are the -1 Wis that other anon probably had in mind.

>>51157283
Hill Giants are dumb as bricks, Frost Giants have 9 Int, and Stone Giants have 9 Cha. Every other kind has average mental stats at worst.

>>51151115
Reminds me of the bard in my group, who constantly tries to cast charm person on everyone.

Even in front of other people who would be hostile to it. And on people that we needed to deal with on a long term basis, who would be pissed that the bard used a charm person spell on them.

Then the bard acts surprised that anyone would have a problem with it.

>>51157397
>Then the bard acts surprised that anyone would have a problem with it.
Just ask him if he's comfortable with someone mind controlling his character.

>>51157300
I can't think of anything that does. Magic in 5e is usually obvious, either through the need for components, flashy lights, that sort of thing. This spell specifically just has a verbal component of jeering at the target angrily. In this particular case, I can think of nothing aside from a guy walking past at just the right time after casting detect magic that would get him caught.

Of course, there is always homebrewed stuff. Or the most likely alternative: threatening a punishment in the hope that the threat is good enough when the ogres have no way to enforce that rule.

I'd turn it into a minigame. Have the player roll to pick out patrolling magic detection guys and not shout when he is in their cone.

>>51157300
All I can find is Detect Thoughts, but even then, it's a self cast spell, so you'd detect everyone around you's thoughts.

>>51157341
That's true. I would think they were hill because they were doing the brawl at all, because most giants aren't total savages, but that depends on the DMs setting and the two individual giants, not so much on standard D&D stuffs.

>>51157300
> Is there a way in 5e for concentrating spellcasters to detect any spells cast in an area, even subtle ones?
For spellcasters? Sure. While concentrating on something else? Nope.
And for a non-spellcaster like a giant or really anyone without spells of their own, they would have zero ways of detecting a spell being cast.
Non-spellcasters are effectively unable to notice magic unless it's flashy.

You're all dumb as shit.

Your logic is that vicious mockery will be stealthed because of the screaming, but the screaming would surely effectively silence the spell, it needs to be heard to take effect.

And even if the giant did hear and did pinpoint the source, he would carry on with his immediate threat opponent i.e. the other giant, at worst screaming to the crowd that you were spellcasting meaning you have to deal with whatever authorities are present.

>>51157423
He says it just looks like him being charming and no one should be able to know that he's controlling them.

>>51157469

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous
You unleash a string of insults laced with subtle enchantments at a creature you can see within range. If the target can hear you (though it need not understand you), it must succeed on a wisdom saving throw or take 1d4 psychic damage and have disadvantage on the next attack roll it makes before the end of its next turn.

This spell's damage increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4), 11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).

>does not need to understand
Technically, he is hearing the entire crowd, the caster a part of it. He can't discern exactly what is being said, but that doesn't matter as per spell description.

>>51157428
Honestly, that minigame idea seems fun as fuck. Makes it entirely dependent on the player and character actions for success rather than dice rolls.

>>51157513

Honestly, if a player could keep up with it, I would let a bard use vicious mockery as a reaction every turn if he wanted, at the expense of increasing damage.

I'm imagining a valor bard sword fighting some bad guy and instead of relying on heavy armor he just spits insults and gives his opponent disadvantage every turn.

Hell, I'm thinking Inigo Montoya with a potty mouth sub class for bards or rogues.

>>51157513

I think it's very much up to the GM, personally I'd say that language doesn't matter because it's the 'soundwaves' that become enchanted, however the presence of other noise could disrupt the enchantment's power as it risks being distorted in some fashion.

I think the idea's fine and not that dangerous but likely not that helpful. Be better off doing something else.

>>51153958
Really, Snidely's car was fast enough that if he really wanted to, he could easily win any race.

He just doesn't because he absolutely refuses to win legitimately.

>>51157589
That's basically the special ability that lore bards already have.

So regarding the giant fight, we’ve determined that:
If there were spell casters actively casting to detect spells cast, or other more homebrew methods clearly in place, then the bard’s suggestion would have been risky, otherwise there’s not much risk.
My position had been that if those in charge of the fight forbid magic, they would have a way of enforcing it.
If there is a clear homebrew mechanism in place for any spell detection, the bard should take a different action.
This seems unlikely, but possible.

If there are spell casters, the bard should determine if they seem to be actively casting.
If so, take other action: High Risk
If not, go for it: Low Risk

If there are no spell casters, the bard should determine if those in charge are using mysterious unknown methods of spell detection or if they are just bluffing. Perhaps a knowledge check and/or a Sense Motive check?
If the bard is convinced those in charge have something up their sleeve, go for it only as a last resort and hope you are too subtle for their trickery: Medium Risk
If otherwise, go for it: Effectively No Risk Unless Your GM is a Dick or You Missed Something

But the most important thing we’ve determined is this:
>>51151115
>"The giant would know you're casting magic dumb ass! He's taking damage!"
The rest of the bard’s party were cowardly, stupid, and wrong on at least this point.

No QTDDTOT thread, so I'll put it here.

How do you guys feel about homebrew magic items in your games? I'm thinking of giving a warrior character in my game a weapon that gives him an additional +1 to hit every time he misses, and once he hits, it is expended and starts over again from 0.

>>51155131
>>51155031
Pretty cool, anon.
That's a curse done right.

>>51151633
>>51153486
There's a PRC in 3.5 that basically is a cursed PRC, it's a massive risk but if it works out or can be reined in it's absolutely nuts

Frenzied Berserker get something called, well, Frenzy. It can be triggered manually or automatically triggers on a failed save on damage, and it STACKS with Barb Rage. So you can have a Barb with +10 strength and an extra attack per round but the problem is that you can't differentiate between ally and enemy, so you could theoretically kill every enemy before your frenzy ends and immediately garbage-can your party. It's the kind of risk/reward I appreciate

>>51150549
>>51151877
>>51157114
>>51157186
>>51157283
>>51157341
>>51157438
If only you didn't play shit games like Pathfinder.

Did anyone in this thread mention inspiration or cutting words as an alternative?

>>51154703
Nice.

>>51159595
Does that +1 per miss also apply to damage?

>>51154700
Because a spell that completely removes all of [problem] no matter how powerful it is should probably not be available at low levels, but if that's the case then you can't really hand out cursed items at low levels without basically just deus ex machina-ing a high level caster in after a little bit of time.

That said, your DM is an ass because (assuming your story is true and not leaving out anything important, this is the internets after all) he just wants the Fighter to suck and asspulls ways around any solutions the players come up with. Even if that clause hadn't been in the spell's description he would have said it didn't work.

I don't think it really matters if the giant notices. The fact is if anyone notices. This includes whoever is officiating the fight, the crowd surrounding you, and anyone working the venue.

Spell casting is obvious. While the giant may not notice the crowd surrounding you likely will.

Or whoever is watching the stands to ensure no interference occurs (because if it is a controlled fight as it seems to be there should be someone watching the stands).

So while it may work there is tons of inherent risk. The giant noticing is the least likely and the least worrying. Whoever is running the fight noticing is the most, fellow spectators is second.

Really I would need more info about the venue before judging. While not all the spectators will hear those near you (within s few squares) are a big risk. You need the crowd to hide you as well from officials.

Maybe if you found members of the crowd who supported your giant and didn't care about cheating? Then used their noise go disguise hour spellcasting from officials. Of course if they're detecting magic or seeking thoughts or something else then you're boned.

>>51161997
>Spell casting is obvious.
How? Why?

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>>51150453
Can you take the sword to a smith who removes the blade, then get a blessed blade that counters the effects of the cursed sword and fix that onto the hilt? Or failing that, make a blessed blade that slips onto the cursed blade.

>>51150549
This. If you can't drop the sword, then his hand is already as good as gone.

Guys, if interfering before the fight is disallowed, then the obvious solution is to interfere before the fight. Poison the other giant's food, disturb his sleep, make him step on a not-LEGO, anything. As long as it's not during the fight, it's allowed.

>>51162970
Typically it is.
It is described as such.

But this particular spell is described as "subtle" and the only components are verbal ones that would completely fit in with the crowd, so that guy is a bit off.

>>51150516
That's supposed to be the exception for plothook curses.
Like, breaking the curse is the whole plot, you can't do it with just a spell.

The DM IS a jackass because that kind of curse is the run-of-the-mill bullshit curse, take up an item, oh no it's cursed, not the your-ancestor-was-cursed-by-a-god-beseeched-by-an-abused-nymph, now you gotta find items related to his and her lives, and sacrifice yourself to experience the same abuses, to break it.

>>51160578
>implying I've played Pathfinder in years and would ever play it again

I thought I'd write some cursed items.

>Circlet of Nightmare's Swiftness
While you sleep (8 hours), you can travel. You travel from the location you slept, and any other location within 8 hours ride. You are impervious to harm while travelling. Anyone else who hears or sees the black horse that carries your sleeping body will be unable to sleep restfully for [1d8?] weeks.

>Gloves of Flesh Binding
The fabric of these gloves feel like your own skin. When you touch the flesh of another [Sapient Humanoid] with these gloves, it latches onto them. The gloves will then digest the humanoid at a rate of [X lb per minute] or [Y damage per round]. An attached creature must make a strength check/save to tear their own flesh, or cut the attached sections of skin free. If the wearer of the gloves dies while attached to another creature, the gloves attach to the other creature and then proceed to digest the corpse of the former wearer.

>Mask of Vigilance
Gain a +1 to [Perception] while wearing this mask for each eyeball of a [sapient creature] that has been embedded into its surface. You may see through the eyes of any living creature who has had their eye implanted in the mask. While you wear the mask, you are aware of the exact location of all living or undead individuals who have worn the mask before, and some general details on their health and disposition.

>>51150958
One of TWO good elements from LotFP's module Death Love Doom was the idea of the magic item that increases in value whenever you try to destroy it.

Yes, it's a horrifying monster in an amulet that destroys any love or happiness it senses. BUT, if you find a rich enough merchant to sell to, it's not your problem. Besides, it's only going to massacre a bunch of spoiled nobles...

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>>51150453
>"Hey guys, want me to run a sci-fi game about space exploration?"
>Yes! It will be so much fun!
>"Excellent! Here is a random guy I found that wants to GM a game about being confined in a generic cyberpunk city."
>Wait, didn't you say you'll be the GM?
>"Nah, I don't like GMing."

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>>51163836
Pic related would be my reaction to that.
I mean, I'm even unnaturally angry at the random guy.

>be random guy
>just want to run a classic cyberpunk game
>other guy says he has a group onboard to play
>start game
>most of the players are pissed for some reason
>one guy goes apeshit about wanting to play space exploration and have the other guy GM
>fucking crazies over the internet
>the guy who introduced me seems cool still

>>51150549
Why not just steal the sword from the fighter instead? That way he cannot be forced to use the cursed item.

>>51156867
Are your players redditors by any chance?

>>51150453
"Okay, you see two doors in front of you. Ones a men's bath the other's a woman's bath"
>I enter the men's bath
>I enter the woman's bath
Keep in mind, these are two dudes ingame
"Um, so you enter the men's bath and there's a skeleton there with a towel. He bows to you and gestures to a large bath"
"You enter the women's bath and the skeletons look at you oddly before attacking you with brooms"

See, the key here is that the players should do stupid things for bad stuff to happen. Don't worry about them avoiding bad stuff, they'll find trouble no matter what.

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>>51164783
I was too tired to be pissed off. I got extremely angry the next day though, sent the "GM" a note that what he did was as shit as him and notified the actual GM (a bit more respectably) what are my reasons for leaving.

Then I had no game for three months.

>>51155422
>the giant felt something hitting it
You're either just shitposting to bait or you're an illiterate retard.
The damage is not something "hitting" someone, it is mental damage from embarrassment from the magical insults.