/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

IGNORE APSEL

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Changelings are insanity powered otherkin
Werewolves are Rage powered otherkin
Beasts are psychopathic otherkin
Vampires have mommy daddy issues
Prometheans have Abandonment Issues
Hunters are kids with guns
Mages are kids with nukes
Mummy are amnesiacs with Nukes
Demons are marysue technophiles
Sin Eaters need to go on a diet
and
Deviants need to get out of bed its past noon

>>51103795

Monstergirl: The Meme splat when?

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>ABUSE ASPEL

the stupid fat tranny bastard

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>>51104091
Skinhead: the Curbstomping when?

>>51103795

why do Changeling shitposts have nothing to do with the game

Got Hunters Hunted in the post today. The postman is obviously an illiterate Aspel, because the large print DO NOT READ on the envelope was too difficult to parse. After I unfolded the book, I can gladly say this is the best 1st edition V:tM book I ever read. Good art, good fiction, useful items. Not hard to see why they revisited it for V20, but fucked if I'm paying ~$40 AUD plus postage for a shitty copy. I want to revisit the past, not reward the mediocrity that is Onyx Path Poo-ductions.

Fuck you Aspel.

>>51103618
>Why do you fucking inbred retards shitpost so?
I've been thinking about the Stryx as a metaphor for sock puppet trolling and/or identity theft.

What dread powers should I give them to be an Aspel tier abominationfrom the Dark Place?

>>51105211
Retard Strength
Horrid Visage
Infinite Shitpost

>>51105255
Dunce Armor:: 3/3 armor and +2 resistance to mental compulsions

>>51105211
Don't forget a Special Snowflake variant of Cruac that doesn't cap Humanity, because that's just totally unfair but don't call me whiny for complaining about it you whiners

>>51105211
>Supernatural Merit: Inanity of The Infinite Chan
>Aspel is literally blessed with an literal inability to see when he is literally talking out of his ass, literally. Unfortunately this literally causes a literal -3 to all social interactions, literally (not metaphorically, not allegorically, literally literally)

>>51103618
>>Question
>Why do you fucking inbred retards shitpost so?

Because I am Aspel's long lost brother, and I must uphold the family honor by shitposting in the name of all that is Aspel.

Literally.

>>51105743
The Storyteller may assign this merit arbitrarily.

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Seers are best waifu

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>>51103618
>Why do you fucking inbred retards shitpost so?
Anti-Aspel posting is the worse than Aspel at this point imho.

>>51105842
Agreed.

So how many of you make your Worlds of Darkness contain as many splats as possible? Do Vampires rule the dark while Mages sit in their towers, and Prometheans lurk in the edges while Changelings come to grips with their new lives?

>>51106720
>Vampires
>ruling anything

>>51106720
For CofD, everything except Mages and God-Machine affiliates exist, though some splats are less common than in the "official setting". The Uratha are pretty rare because the Shadow is a bit "quieter", but Sin-Eaters and ghosts are more common, for example. I also include some random beasties from Hunter and alternate versions of vampires and werewolves.
For oWoD there are only vampires, werewolves, weird demons and a few mages, but Imbued also show up.

>>51106782
Since you have a handle on rough numbers, what are some numbers for population? I know for vamps it's something like 1/50,000 or 1/20,000, but what for Uratha or Changelings and the others?

>>51106815
In CofD, "officially" vampires are maybe 1 in 10000, with a much higher ratio in cities, changelings more or less the same thing, werewolves 1 in 50000, mages 1 in 100000 and Prometheans number globally in the low thousands, from what I remember. It's been a while since I last saw the numbers. Supernaturals tend to be rarer in oWoD.

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>>51105842
Do you realise you're anti-anti-Aspel posting?
Anti-anti-Aspel posting is the worse than anti-Aspel at this point imho

>>51107015
https://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-217024.html

>>51107015
So basically in say, NYC, there's what? 1,800 or so Kindred then, plus 1,800 or so Changelings, plus just under a thousand Uratha, and then a few hundred mages

>>51107058
That's a median. Some cities might be weighted outliers, and NYC is a prime candidate for that being the so-called 'capital of the world' it makes sense if those numbers were higher to reflect that.

>>51106720

I fit in every single one in a setting but I don't have them necessarily appear in every single game in that setting. They're all dealing with their own issues to crossover regularly or at all a lot of the time.

They're all vaguely aware of each other, with some individuals closer than others, but usually the most another splat may have about the other is just general cautions like, "can enslave you with their blood", "will kill perceived threats to territory," and "asshole wizards, avoid at all costs".

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>>51107030
I, for one, am anti-anti-anti-anti-Aspel posting. Shame on you!

Has anyone ever done a Golgonda Chronicle (VtR 2e specifically, but I'll take 1e or Masq stories too). How'd it pan out? Any advice?

I'm going to rush five resilience and throw myself into comical situations to ruin the tone of this chronicle

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>>51108189
I'm playing the X Card on you. This is an official anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-Aspel post. I ask you to respect my personal boundaries.

>>51105783
The Abyss is the only waifu I want

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Life and Spirit yo

>>51108866
I don't understand your memes

>>51108304

Ruin it...or make it better?

>>51108875
They're forced down your throat by a fucking pleb. Don't they taste like shriveled dick to you?

Hey, so, I'm prepping up for a Vampire game, and I think I'd like to plan out the city a little more than I usually do when running a game. I've already got a copy of Damnation City, are there any other helpful city building books I should look at?

On a related note, would anyone know any lesser-known cities that would be around major military bases in the United States? I'm gonna go do the googling, but if anyone just happens to know some off the top of their head, that'd be cool too.

Does anyone know some good podcasts that go really deep into a game or that are particularly fun to listen to? I've gotten the urge to play this but I don't have the time or contacts to get an actual game going

I want to run a mage game that focuses on mysteries and self reflection rather than the salvation of the Fallen World or war with the Seers. Whats the best place to start?

>>51109152

If you don't mind Creepypasta as a thing, RPPR's Candlecove/Slenderman campaign is fun, though incomplete:

http://actualplay.roleplayingpublicradio.com/2010/03/genre/horror/world-of-darkness-candle-cove/

http://actualplay.roleplayingpublicradio.com/slender-man-campaigns-and-one-shots/

>>51109229
Unfortunately i've already listened to both of those. The Candlecove one was awesome though

>>51109194

2e Mage Core, then maybe pick up Astral Realms from 1e. You may want to pick up the Legacy books from 1e as well, since Legacies are all about self-discovery.

>>51109240

Have you tried the Insanity We Truth podcasts yet? There's a Mummy and a Werewolf one.

>>51109683

>Thai Cuisine

Every goddamn time, that never fails to make me laugh.

>>51109110
This is an ancient article, but it contains timeless wisdom on fleshing out a city;

>http://www.vtm.kismetrose.com/sc/storytelling/Storytelling23.html

>>51109152
This is amusing, if only because of how collosally bad the neonates screw the pooch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBr55_UCfik&t=7208s

>>51109683
Black Dog revival when?

>>51109884

Oh, this is good stuff, thank you!

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(OWOD)

Okay, so let's say I start characters as Mortals and they have to earn the goddamn embrace after a period of Ghoul-hood (free Potence!!).

What do they get added to their sheet when they get the Embrace? Just the Disciplines and Clan Flaw? Or do they get a few extra dots here and there to reflect that they are now More Human Than Human, thank you Dr. Rob Zombie?

>pic unrelated

I'm kind of pissed off at nWoD for not giving approximate stats.

Assuming I have a city of roughly 300,000 people and a fairly busy center of commerce (think Boulder or a less-tech-oriented Seattle), what kind of power should I give the following NPCs:
5 Primogen
1 Prince
4 Seer Minsters
5 Heads of the Pentacle
Head of Regional Division of TFV
Head of Local Branch of Cheiron Group

I was thinking of something like 5 dice for the supernatural without specialties, and 7 dice for their supernatural/specialty stuff? I dunno, vs a group of Mages/Hunters/Princesses, is that too OP or not enough? I've never ST'd nWoD before.

>>51110232
The entire point of CofD is to tone down the "this is the way the game is" stuff and turn up the "here are tools you can use or not, do whatever the fuck you want". If you want a well defined world you should take a look at oWoD

>>51110232

Specifically, I'm wondering what powers I should give the vamps. I've played Mage before, so I can eyeball them.

Like, how would a Primogen of the Ordo be different from a Primogen of the Ventrue from a powers perspective?

>>51110400

Nice dubs, but as I clarified, I would like to be able to say
"Okay, you guys deduced that you've pissed off a Gangrel biker gang, the Totenkopfen. Three of them dismount - two are wrapping chains around their fists, while the third is carrying a hefty tire iron. Another shadow steps out of the recessed doorframe. The atheletic man bows towards the bikers. "The Ventrue wish to inform our Gangrel brethren that we're going to assist them in their fight against the Enlightened and the Hopeful." With that he turns around to the group and smiles at them, fangs glittering in the night."

And having said all that, how do I know:
>what powers they have
>what dicepool to use
>what do the powers do
>etc
Mind you, this is assuming I don't want to full flesh out the NPCs with a character sheet.

What I do have is someone else system where I assign a rating of 1-5 for NPCs, and they get their rating in skills they're not good at, and 2x their rating at skill that they are. But it still doesn't answer my question of powers and power results.

>>51109683
Me on the left

>>51110227
Well if you go with the 6/4/3 and 11/7/5 spread that humans and ghouls get then yes you should give them some extra points

But then again humans and ghouls don't get 21 freebies?

>>51110501
>What powers do they have
Gangrel have the following disciplines: Animalism, Protean, Resilience
Ventrue have: Animalism, Dominate, Resilience

Animalism allows them to command animals. Typical dicepool: Presence + Animal Ken + Animalism
Resilience makes them resistant to damage, i.e. increases Health and it allows them to soak. No dicepool, just Vitae expenditure.

Protean allows vampires to shapeshift (into bestial things). No dicepool, just Vitae expenditure.

Dominate allows them to hypnotize and mind fuck their victims. Usual dicepool: Presence + Persuasion/Intimidation + Dominate vs. Resolve + Supernatural Power Stat. Usually no vitae expenditure required. But they do get penalties when they use it in combat.

As for dicepools, that sort of depends on how competent you want them to be. I'd say: neonates 4-6 ancillae 6-8, and elders 8-10. (This is for disciplines)

Vampires can furthermore:
Heal damage by expending vitae (1 vita: 1l/2b).
All mundane sources of damage only deal Bashing damage to vampires.
They can spend vitae to enhance a physical dicepool with +2 for a turn.

There's also a neat trick called Lashing Out, but if you're not interested in reading up on shit to much, I wouldn't bother.

>>51111053
I'm sorry, add 2 to those dicepools, I'm being retarded.

>>51111053

Oh shit, thanks so much!

But I'm still salty that Onyx Path/White Wolf just didn't include something like this in the Storytelling thing in the core Vamp book.

Whatever. Thank you!

>>51111261
Well, you're simply a lazy fuck. But you're welcome anyway.

>>51111292

I would question that harsh judgment. I don't feel I need to read the whole Vamp book and then generate full NPCs to represent the enemies in a crossover game. The vamps are there to be the "bad guys" of the campaign.

>>51111435
True, you don't need to read the whole book. You could at least scan the disciplines to figure out what they do generally and what kind of dicepools are involved. You could at least have a look at the clans to see what their spread is. You couldn't even be bothered to do these basic things, judging by your request. So, no: that wasn't a harsh judgement. You're a bit of a lazy fuck. But that's alright. The best STs usually are.

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>>51111555

Your blessed quad-trips fill me with confidence.

I am trying to read as few rules as possible so that I avoid the pitfalls of D&D. I take your blessing to heart.

Have one of the NPCs, who is a sister of one of the PCs. She's a cop and likes to be tied up.

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>>51111261
The assumption is that you'll have familiarized yourself with the book first.

>>51111627
I don't see how reading as few rules as possible will help you avoid the pitfalls of D&D. Reading as few rules as possible is a terrible way to run a game, as it means you don't actually know how to run the game.

>>51113600

The assumption is that a narrativist game can avoid the pitfall of D&D that instead of looking up the actual rules for grappling, I can say "all right, Dex+Brawl." The only thing I was having an issue is that I didn't want to read yet ANOTHER book, considering I already read Core nWoD, MtAw, Vigil, and Princess. 4 books is enough, considering I only wanted the vampires for antagonists.

What's the general opinion on Genius: The Transgression? Good ideas with bad execution? Too unfocused thematically to make it stand out? I'm all ears.

>>51114814
Shit

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Should I sleep with the probable Seer agent?

>>51115165

You wouldn't be the first Pentacle member to do so. Why the hell not.

>>51115165
Become a seer agent.

Loyally serve your Exarch overlords.

>>51114805
CofD isn't narrativist, it's just not super crunchy. I'd call it rules medium.

> I only wanted the vampires for antagonists.
Then Vampire: The Requiem isn't a book you should read. Give the vampires whatever singular powers you feel are reasonable. Vigil already gives you rules for creating monsters. If you were playing 2e, the Chronicles of Darkness corebook also gives monster creation suggestions.

Is there a Discord or the like for oWoD?

>>51115165
They say a man's semen has a lot of correspondence

I'm feeling like playing a game. What should I play?

>>51117279
*Running a game. What should I run?

I made a strawpoll to check interest on games that I might want to run. Come vote if you want to play.

http://www.strawpoll.me/12072083

>>51117527

>no demon

what are you, gay?

>>51117787
I just had a Demon game run down due to the holidays and people bailing. Not interested in repeating.

>>51109683
Which book is this from?

>>51113600
ignore x

>>51118262

Subsidiaries: A Guide to Pentex, specifically the Black Dog Games chapter.

anyone have that pdf where someone reads through and summarizes days of fire?

>>51118331
Anon, what part of that post do you feel needs to be ignored?

Hey /wodg/,

My group will at some point, when we get done with the current arc in our Pathfinder game, be playing Mage: The Awakening. The only experience I have with WoD is Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines and reading the White Wolf wiki. The only experience I have with TTRPG period is 4 sessions with this group in Pathfinder.

Where do I start when making a character?

>>51118676
Are you guys playing 1e or 2e?

>>51118676
You can start by creating a mortal character, forgetting about the mage part entirely for the beginning. Then you can pick a path based on your characters background and ideals which determines what kind of magic you can cast.

Or, start by choosing what kind of magic you want to play around with, what kind of symbols your character uses, and figure out what path that corresponds to. For example a healer would be life, so normally a thyrsus. Then you can look at the stereotypes of thyrsus and build the character accordingly.

The book has a fairly clear char creation guide

>>51118735
I'm not 100% sure yet, I think 2e, but like I said not 100% sure. Is there a severe difference?

>>51118676
Characger concept.
Have a good idea for a character and go from there. However there to be fluid in your concept, as there will be elements you won't be able to replicate in the system.

Mage has the potential to provide horrendously broken characters, so it's important to keep your design in mind, when faced with the various bullshit powerful options.

Try to make the game more than a blatant masturbatory power wank. Though the fact your group is coming from Pathfinder doesn't really instill me with much confidence with regards to that.

>>51118763
Ok, that sounds good. I was reading through the various paths and different arcanas and I was getting a little overwhelmed. That seems like a good way to focus things.

>>51118767
>Try to make the game more than a blatant masturbatory power wank.
While I'm not trying to make a guy who can't do jack shit, the actual roleplaying aspect interests me far more than just blasting shit with magic.

>>51118798
You literally aren't allowed to spend some of your xp on anything except magical abilities anyway so you can't really be useless. You would have to work hard to make a character concept that was really weak.

>>51118764
Very severe. What does the book look like? It should say "second edition". If it talks about Obsessions and Beats, it's 2e.

But as other people are saying, having a character concept is good.

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Stupidest idea ever?

>>51117527

you should probably do another poll with only the most popular options of the first poll, imo

>>51119630
This is just an interest check, I'm not just going to take the most popular one and run it.

>>51119683

do you have any preference for gamelines that you would run?

I voted Mage because it's the best game ever and I'm basically a Mage

>>51118915
Gotcha.

>>51118956
We play over roll20 and at this stage he's just emailing about it.

>>51119711
Minor ones, enough that it's within the top 3-4 instead of just the top one or me choosing.

>>51119724
>and I'm basically a Mage
You're a giant asshole?

>>51118735
>Are you guys playing 1e or 2e?

For the big 3 (mage, vampire and Werewolf) 2nd. For changeling 1e, 2e is utter trash.

>>51120068
Correction, incomplete, utter trash.

>>51120068
>For changeling 1e, 2e is utter trash.
My african american compatriot

>>51111555
>boohoo, how dare you start conversation about world of darkness stuff on /wodg/

I'm so glad you prefer Aspel's shitposting.

>>51114814
It's basically Mage Lite, without all the interesting magick parts.

>>51117527
>http://www.strawpoll.me/12072083
>no oWoD

Pfffft pass. I'd rather not support mediocrity.

>>51118659
Oh, the part where Aspel makes chimpanzee noises and flings his own faeces.

>>51107801
>"asshole wizards, avoid at all costs"

Why did the Prince decree that this one measly wizard not be disturbed, and why does he have so many lawn chairs strewn across his yard?

>>51119215
No, naming a feature of Chrod after the place gay men met in the 70's to suck each other off was the stupidest idea ever.

>"Beat".

>>51119683
>runs a popularity contest
>says he's going to ignore the most popular option

why the fuck are you even bothering? Who are you, Aspel?

>>51120282
I thought it was named after, you know, story beats?

>>51120302
It's an interest check, not a popularity contest. The purpose is to determine which gamelines have the most interest in them compared to the others.

And I may or may not pick the most popular option, it hasn't been determined yet.

>>51120323
only applies to films or plays. This is a game of play pretend with magical menses-sprouting undead dicks, and male pregnancies. Haven't you read the sidebars?

>>51120344
Why don't you find the players first, and then ask them what they want to play, instead of wasting your time being an insufferable dickhead?

>>51120370

There's really no need to be upset about this, it's just a game.

>>51120370
Why do you care so much?

U mad bro?

>>51120402
>presuming this is what I'm upset about

Guess again, John Edwards. Maybe if you weren't being such a prat I'd be more "convivial".

>>51120422
I don't give a shit. I'm just giving him some advice, like "why don't you rip off your cock, shove it in your own ass and fuck yourself right off".

>>51120431
Are you... Actually retarded? I'm so sorry, I didn't know. Please stop your autistic screeching.

>>51120068
>>51120105
>>51120123
>ITT: Shit opinions

>>51120355
>Haven't you read the sidebars?

Zhe too busy saving planet to read sidebars.

>>51120355
Anything with a story has story beats.

>>51120224
See >>51120177

>>51120246
>lawn chairs

M20 reference

>triggered<

This may be the worst thread in weeks and I don't think Aspel has even posted.

>>51120556

Even if Aspel's away, that stench takes weeks to disperse.

What's so bad about 2ED Changeling?

>>51120601
It's written by David Hill

>>51120601
It plays to Changeling's themes, which is something people don't like. Also >>51120958

>>51120958
Do you mind elaborating? I don't know a lot about the developers and their writing histories.

>>51120068
>For changeling 1e, 2e is utter trash.
2e crunch is better. The correct course of action is to use 2e rules but 1e fluff.

>>51120370
His methodology seems sound to me.

>>51120988
My problem is it lacks any subtlety or nuance with its themes.

>>51121112
Oh Anon, there's nothing wrong with a game based on modern human trafficking

>>51120601
It's much too dark.
Changeling was the splat about beautiful madness.
Now all of the beauty is gone.

I mean, the rules are tight for the most part.
I don't particuarly like how Seeming is defined by escape, and how Contracts are now one-off purchases, rather than progression (which from the examples I've seen has done nothing but disconnect them further form the phenomenon you're contracting with).
Oh, you've also got to define your own fucking Triggers, which make you remember shit from Arcadia, which horrifies you. But you get to determine when they happen. For some reason.

It's... Not good.

>>51121263
Changelings are physic vampires kidnapped and soul fucked in new forms on he whims of alien minds. and then incentivized to disconnect from humanity to a more alien mindset(possible becoming the alien who kidnapped them in the first place) for more and more power. And tricking mortals into emotionally draining drama plays that they now feed from. The darkness was always there Anon

>>51121551
No shit sherlock.
However darkness without brightness isn't Changeling.

IDK every changeling game I've been around was a race to the bottom for bleak abuse stories.

>>51121606
That's not exactly against form for your Durance, Anon. Arcadia isn't a nice place.
Did they at least progress beyond trying to one-up one another in their suffering during play?

>>51121582
Good thing there is brightness? What fucking brightness was there in 1e?

Every complaint I see about 2e makes me wonder what Changeling 1e these people were reading.

>>51121263

>Changeling was the splat about beautiful madness

I'm going be honest. That tagline honestly felt like a bunch of empty nonsense words compared to the game itself. I'm not looking forward to Changeling 2e, but dumping that tagline for something (hopefully) more fitting will help.

>>51121023

This is probably what I'll end up doing, maybe with more Court variety.

>>51121637
Not in the slightest. The game sessions tetered between "Dare you enter my Magical Realm" or Law & Order:svu urban fantasy edition. I gave up on it which is a shame because I like the idea of changeling.

>>51122788
>Law & Order:svu urban fantasy edition

That's more Forsaken, or even Awakening.

>>51123048
I think he's more talking the Special Victims Unit part than the Law & Order part.

So, what supernatural creatures in chronicles can see past the mask of a Changeling? I'm planning to have my setting have a shared space between vampires and Changelings but wanna be sure the vampires actually are able to see the Changelings with out ensorcellment.

The werewolf walked to the other side of the road to literally get to the other side of the road.

Joke ended.

>>51123048
>>51123129

Timmy, everything will he all right, just point to the spot on the fetish where the spirit touched you...

>>51123219

Read the draft of C2e that DavidH released.

"Fae beings, ensorcelled mortals, and other supernaturals with mystical senses can see through the
Mask. In the mirror, a changeling sees herself as she truly is, and not how the world sees her. She sees
other changelings in their fae mien, and only with great effort can see another’s Mask. This extends to
objects woven with the Mask, such as a sword forged out of a dragon’s claw or a gown spun only of
perfect snowflakes. The Lost see these objects as they truly are, but to mortal eyes these things are
mundane, if exceptional in some way. The Mask only covers objects and beings from the fae world,
and not any mundane clothing or items a changeling might wear. Fae tokens and objects retrieved from
the Hedge almost always resemble their real-world counterparts (or closest counterparts, in the case of
Hedge beasts whose like is not found on Earth). For example, a bloodstained battleaxe might look like
a fire axe with a rusting head, or a princely crown becomes an ornate hat or headband. Such items,
crafted from the strange stuff of the Hedge, serve as status symbols as well as useful articles for those
with not-quite-human forms

>>51123308
>other supernaturals with mystical senses can see through the Mask
How strong do the mystical senses need to be? Does every Mage see through the Mask? Any Vampire with Auspex? Or do they need to actively use their powers?

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>>51123519

Here's the playtest compilation.

>>51123519
Doesn't say, but as it's a concealing power, I'd probably say you'd need to actively be using your powers to detect it, and it would likely provoke a Clash of Wills.

With any power capable of dispelling a mind-affecting influence capable of contesting it.

How bad of an idea would it be to try to find a normal Camarilla VtM game online?

>>51120505
Oh, did I shit all over your pretty day? I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that. By all means, please, develop a massive aneurysm and die vomiting blood. I invite you.

>>51121091
That's because your parents are siblings.

>>51123219
The ST

/thread

>>51123219
>>51123519
Beasts can naturally see through the mask.

>>51123242
A jew, a rabbi and an Israeli walk into a bar and Aspel died of ass-cancer.

>>51123267
Aspel swears he left him by the river.
Aspel swears he left him safe and sound.
Aspel needs to get back to the river,
and leave this old Nebraska town.

>>51120556
Your face is the worst thread in weeks.

BOOM

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>>51120534
The sidebars don't go far enough. Players need comprehensive re-education and gender reassignment surgery. They must be coerced into sexual relations with all cummers, and have every vote in the next ten elections entered on their behalf.

Promethean Question: How do they age?

>>51125164
Page 170: "Prometheans do not keep the fire burning forever. After about a century in her condition, the fire quenches and she ceases to be if she has yet to attain true mortality. Additionally, this clock resets if she Returns (see p. 169). This could add another theoretical century to her life."

What to do about that player that is completely uninterested in the setting and doesn't read the corebook even if you smear it in his face?

>>51125362
Tell him to read the fucking book, or take a hike.
Not your job to deal with a purposefully ignorant character.

>>51125368
All his characters have been variations of the archetype "dude that doesn't care about anyone or anything". Y splats are completely uniteresting for him, moreso if they don't give inherent mechanical advantages.
How to make him realize that a setting without philosophical/political outlooks just isn't a setting?

>>51125421
Tell him.
Honestly though, odds of him ever internalizing it are low.

>>51125362
What setting is it?

>>51105168
>a shitty copy

It's clear you've never actually read Hunters Hunted II.

>>51125421
>All his characters have been variations of the archetype "dude that doesn't care about anyone or anything". Y splats are completely uniteresting for him, moreso if they don't give inherent mechanical advantages.

Tell him to fix his act or fuck off. You shouldn't waste time and effort on people who aren't interested and don't want to play the game you're setting up for them.

That's not to say that you should immediately boot anyone who's got constructive criticism or shit like that, but this guy just sounds like he's being an asshole because he thinks he can get away with it.

>>51125362

Either a) Let his ignorance of the setting and mechanics hit him IC. "oh you, didnt knew that you shouldnt eat humans in werewolf? Thats too bad *character get executed*

b) Made them make a "just turn in" supernatural and explain the setting IC.

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>Carthians can't be fascists

>>51125362
Kill the boy

>>51125713
Pretty much says in their book multiple times Carthian Fascists exist.

The only political ideology they couldnt be is monarchist. Socialist, Nationalist, fascist, Natsoc, Libertarian, Anarchist, Neocon, Paleocon, Liberal etc etc are all fine for Carthians.

>>51126192
Constitutional and parliamentary monarchies are a thing though. Moderate Carthians supporting a reformist Invictus Prince is doable.

>>51126268
This is also true. I forgot about those.

I live in Australia too and we have one of those so thats real fucking embarrassing.

>>51125441
We mostly played Requiem and Forsaken, gonna restart Forsaken in a new setting.

>>51126314
An idea would be having everyone be a ghost wolf at first and slowly introduce them to werewolf society. It might change his perspective. He does kind of sound like an asshole though.

>>51125362
Get them interested. Be a good storyteller.

>>51125473
Perhaps I should clarify:

Hunters Hunted, for those of you cunts that still actually buy fucking books instead of pirating them, comes in two versions. A shitty version on paper like you get from a photocopy store for $40 plus postage, or a "professional" print on decent paper for over $50.

Why pay $50 when I got Hunters Hunted for $25 plus postage? Hell even then I got ripped off, some dude in Germany is selling one for $15 and $5 postage.

>It's clear you've never actually read Hunters Hunted II.

I trusted Onyx Path to do a decent job with Mage 20th. I'm so badly burnt by that horrible, horrible hatchet job that I've abandoned ship on anything they do. Rose Bailey and Rich Thomas can suck my hairy Australian balls.

>>51126268
>Moderate Carthians
Literally worse than Fascist Carthians

>>51125713
>>51126192
My problem isn't that "it's not a thing that could ever happen" so much as "the book mentions it, but gives no clear indication of how or why such a thing would come about".
Authoritarianism is sort of contrary to the core Carthian ideology. I mean, Fascism isn't much different from Monarchism.
Right Wing Carthians just don't make much sense, and the Invictus is already there for when you want Right Wing political theory to be the villain. Or hero, I guess.

It blurs the themes between the two, and if you're going to use that kind of thing, there should be a good reason. Carthians generally embrace from (left) Libertarian, Socialist, and Liberal groups. They're not just about "let's use mortal government", they're about breaking up the hierarchical structure of most cities. Their two core traits are "Power to the People" and "Change is Necessary". Adopting a political ideology that actively undermines your core traits is just weird and unreasonable. You don't see any local Circle of the Crones who think a comfortable life is best, or Invictus who don't think mortals are of any use.

It's like wanting paganist Lancae et Sanctum, or a Catholic Circle of the Crone. Actually, I'd say those two are easier, due to the historical overlap, but that would fall under having a good reason for the subversion. I don't actually know what the Nawlins setting in Requiem 1e was like, but I can imagine a Lancae et Sanctum and Circle of the Crone that are very similar to each other, thanks to the syncretism between Catholicism and things like Vodoun and Santeria.

tl;dr:
> they believe that every man can and must have a voice, in death as he did in life, and that voice must be heard in order for peace or justice to prevail in the system — any system.

>>51124566
VtM is garbage and attracts a similar caliber of people so it'd be a pretty bad idea.

>>51126539
I wouldn't call it garbage. It does attract edgelords, like most WoD games, both old and new.

>>51126539
Requiem would be nothing if it hadn't ripped off everything good in it from Masquerade. All that's left, all that's original, seems set to pander to those people that hang around Universities and never graduate.

Pol Sci student? Plays Carthian.
Ultra Feminazi Wiccan-wannabe? Plays Circle of Crone.
Catholic Bible-basher who plans to smuggle bibles into China? Plays Lancea Sanctum.
Right-Wing Trump Supporter that believes Trump should shoot Hilary dead? Plays Invictus.
Creepy bastard that got in trouble for fishing around in the tampon disposal in the women's toilets? Plays Ordo Dracul.

Or you could join the Furfags for a game of Forsaken, I suppose.

Or, you can join the egotistical Cocaine-addict kids for a game of Awakening.

Or, you can join the creepy medical students in a game of Promethean.

Just don't play Beast. Ever. It fucking sucks, and it's broken as fuck.

>>51126720
I'm reading 1ed CoC covenant book and I don't get to much of the feminazi vibe. What did I miss?

>>51126815
You missed the fact that it's bait.

>>51126839
Yeah I guess.

However this opinion seems to pop up from time to time so maybe there is some stuff in Secrets of the covenants or 2ed that I haven't had time to read yet

>>51126720
So Hunter's okay then?

>>51126720

Do we have to pull out the "Masquerade clans map directly to 80s high school cliques" again?

>>51126720
Why is Beast broken? Do you mean overpowered? If that's what you mean, I have to disagree. This thread explains why Beasts are not overpowered:

http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/main-category/main-forum/the-new-world-of-darkness/beast-the-primordial-aa/842010-beasts-overpowered-try-underpowered

So speaking of beasts. Do you guys use them as NPCs in your games. Do they fill any niche that can't be occupied by various "nonmainsplat" creatures described in other CofD books?

>>51126906

If they're underpowered, that means they're still broken.

>>51126939
They are not really underpowered either. They are more like Jacks Of All Trades, as the thread says.

>>51126720
What are Demon and Mummy, in this analogy?

>>51126977

That sounds really boring to play.

>>51126939
It doesn't matter. Beast is pretty bad and almost no ones plays it.

>>51127011
I admit Beast is far from perfect, but I don't get why so many people dislike it so intensely.

>>51127057
It's the way it's written.

>>51127057
It's just completely uninteresting and its fluff is stupid.

>>51126869
Yeah, actually.

>>51127057
It's insipid justification for people abusing those around them, just to pamper the ego's of people who had a rough trot in fucking High School?

>>51127057

Bad early PR, a central metaphor that doesn't quite work like it used to, a document leaked due to chan drama, a KS document that only had some parts cut, a percived general drop in quality compared to the last line (Demon), and a new draft that couldn't quite please anyone and still doesn't really address the main issues of gameplay.

Should Beast recieve every little bit of vitriol hurled at it? No. The game's mediocre and pretty ham-fisted, though made with the best intentions. But White Wolf fans are drama hounds, no matter which setting they like, and will take very opportunity to fight.

>>51126906
By "broken" he means that if you take a specific combination of skills and get to the highest level of Lair possible, you can throw a skyscraper, if you ignore both the fact that Size doesn't actually correlate to weight and the fact that skyscrapers don't hold together when lifted by human sized hands.

>>51127057
/wodg/ says to hate it, so /wodg/ hates it.

>>51127439

>The RPGnet, Something Awful, OPP, and Giant in the Playground CofD communities do not exist
>Beast's reception was only negative here

Come on now.

>>51127475
That's why this thread hates it.

Honestly, the whole thing is manufactroversy by the same people who said all of Reddit is pedophiles because r/creepshots existed.

More Deviant spoilers when?

>>51126516
>implying there arent left wing authoritarians. Those two concepts are not mutually exclusive

I have faith that a 2ED Genius is possible, dammit. We're not just polishing a turd.

>>51126516
>Socialism
>Not authoritarian
What a big meme

>>51127631
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics
>Left-wing politics supports social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy and social inequality.[1][2][3][page needed][4] It typically involves a concern for those in society whom its adherents perceive as disadvantaged relative to others (prioritarianism), as well as a belief that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished (by advocating for social justice).[1] The term left wing can also refer to "the radical, reforming, or socialist section of a political party or system".[5]
???

Stop getting your knowledge from PoliticalCompass.org

>>51127802
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
>Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production;[10] as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment.[11] Social ownership may refer to forms of public, collective, or cooperative ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these.[12] Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[13] social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms.[5][14][15]
???
Stop getting your knowledge from 1950s era propaganda.

Ya'll should stick to vampire politics instead of human ones.

>>51127836
Seizing the means of production requires authoritarian methods to forcibly take someones private property.

>>51127878
Drop it. It's either Aspel or a troll impersonating him.

>>51126720
a game with a wiccan, bible-basher and trump support sounds entertaining, they generally wouldn't be in the same group

>>51127932
That sounds a lot like my group

>>51127878
Or, you know, the working class rising up against their capitalist oppressors.

This is literally how the vampire politics work, you understand those, right? Lots of Neonates trying to reclaim the night from the Elders? It's the same thing except with factories.

>>51127932
Not really. I have pretty diverging political, religious and social opinions with my friends, but we get along just fine.

>>51127531

People coming to their own conclusions about a game is manufactored controversy? And what would the purpose of this manufactured controversy be, then? It's certainly not boasting the game's sales.

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>>51128090
People coming to conclusions about a game based on people making wild accusations like "anyone who likes this game is probably a pedophile rapist serial killer" is manufactroversy. Not manufactured by the game's creators (though they did kickstart more than successfully), but by people who don't like the game and also don't understand that even if you like a game where you play as a shitty person (and the game doesn't force you to do that in the first place) it doesn't make you a shitty person.

I remember people acting like Matt was an abuser because they read Beast as apologetics for abusers, as opposed to a ripoff of VtM.

>>51127966
are you suggesting they generally would be in the same group?

>>51127947
You mean the people who took the risk of starting a business and gave people jobs are not entitled to the fruits of their labor?

>>51127947

Which will need to involve the seizure of their means of production, which, in this capitalist system, is considered private property. Also, in order to prevent a counter-revolution, aspects of free speech from the higher economic classes will need to be curtailed. This is only the starting point to establish a new economic system in favor of the working class.

It's not just "rising up", the working class would need to commit heavy, forceful action against their oppressors. Whether or not it is actually just, it will be seen as authoritarianism. If the revolutionary government becomes corrupt, turns on its people, and then cannot be challenged and thrown down, then it in fact does becomes an authoritarian state, since the working class is once again oppressed.

This is the inherent danger of all revolutionary politics no matter the political position. Leftist revolutionaries are just as suceptible to this sort of corruption, no matter what ideals they claim to aspire to.

>Lots of Neonates trying to reclaim the night from the Elders?

How do you think they would do that, and how do you think they would keep the Elders out of power? What do you think happens when someone decided to abuse the authority they created in that revolution?

This isn't a matter of Red Scare nonsense, it's understanding the flawed actions of people and how this can send revolutions spinning wildly out of control.

The issue is that you seem to think people always act out of their values, a telling example of the Liberal underpinning beneath the seemingly Leftist veneer of your ideology. "But they don't beleive that, why would they do it?" is a highly naive question to ask about a political movement when we can see examples in action around us in history.

This is especially important when remembering that Vampire is all about the risks of inherent corrpution, and what would happen if it occurs.

>>51128337
As in being all members of the same covenant? I don't really see it. But they'd get along just fine.

>>51126906
They can completely bypass any need to feed by watching another supernatural creatures feed I'd they take a merit.

I won't say broken but that rule is pretty abusable unless your setting is the rare outlier with no mages, werewolves or vampires

>>51128495
This is a well though and clearly well informed response. Studying history really shows the downsides of revolutionaries.

>>51128495
I think you might be confusing authoritarianism with use of force (which can be thought of in some sense as exerting authority)
If some system suggests that persons a private property, a countersystem that suggests forceful escape from slavery is not 'authoritarian' simply because a dominant or even existing element deems it unethical.
Authoritarian characterizes a political philosophy.
overall though, since I don't know where carthian hardlines start and end, it's true you can have left authoritarians (and equally true you could entertain political arguments about whether or not they are legitimately left), it doesn't seem that carthians would entertain authoritarian ends or rhetoric except by subversion or deceit

>>51128279
>I remember people acting like Matt was an abuser because they read Beast as apologetics for abusers, as opposed to a ripoff of VtM.
Mostly do to the ooc justifications and the strawmaning of antagonists. Both of these are chalked to bad writing, over a product he was just handed and told Make it work. Both of these can be fixed but it would have required another pass at the draft, but the development cycle didn't have the budget or time. A comedy of errors to be sure.

The Anthology had some good ideas so maybe the up coming supplements can salvage some of it

>>51128473

If they don't exploit the people they gave the jobs to in order to gain some of those fruits, it's fine. A business with a healthy relationship with its labor union or preferably a well-managed co-op isn't a huge problem. The problem is that our current economy encourages people to exploit their workers to diminishing returns. A stronger worker voice or workers taking production into their own hands is a solution to this problem, though naturally getting to that state has its pitfalls and potential abuses.

>>51128279

But what about the people who clearly read abusive behavior in the example actions of a Beast, and can even point to how it reflects on the abuse they suffered?

They do present a strong case that Beast has a reading that is uncomfortably close to abuse apologia. Of course the developer isn't an abuser, nor are any of the writers I would hope, but a written work can and will stumble into unintentional but supported readings.

>if you like a game where you play as a shitty person, it doesn't make you a shitty person

Of course not. That still doesn't mean that potential problematic aspects shouldn't be called out and examined.

>and the game doesn't force you to do that in the first place

And this is the root of it, I think. Your ethical system seems to be quite different from the critics. That's worth discussing, but that is no justification for calling the controversy "manufactured".

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>>51128473
>Exploitation
>The fruits of their labor
Capitalist pls go.

>>51128495
>>51128758
It's not informed, it's propaganda. It also uses a super ridiculous definition of "authoritarian".

And saying "studying history shows the downsides of revolution" is ridiculous considering the revolutions that form the backbone of modern government. Any American especially who thinks Revolutions are bad hasn't paid attention.

>>51128789
Honestly none of that bothers me so much as the utter lack of focus or direction. And also the fact that >>51128633
>They can completely bypass any need to feed by watching another supernatural creatures feed I'd they take a merit.
You don't need a merit. It's not broken, it's the theme. It's also unfortunately at odds with other themes. And arguably the "you must feed your dark desires" theme is bigger.

>>51128907
Co-ops are generally the kind of thing Marxists like.
>But what about the people who clearly read abusive behavior in the example actions of a Beast, and can even point to how it reflects on the abuse they suffered?
They're not wrong. But it's still just fiction. I feel like most Onyx Path fans realize that, especially since "you're playing abusers" has been the schtick of these games for ages.
I'm also all for calling out problematic aspects, but none of the ones here weren't present elsewhere.

>And this is the root of it, I think. Your ethical system seems to be quite different from the critics.
It literally doesn't, though. I'm a person who generally gets full of piss when someone talks about how you can be a vampire who never hurts anyone, but as a Beast that's literally a possibility. Which is frankly shitty design in their "you have to hurt people" game.

>>51128758

On the other hand, of course, revolutions can also bring great good. It's high risk, high reward, and occasionally necessary for survival. It's just an undertaking that can lead to some serious pitfalls.

>>51128784

Subversion and deceit are quite common in the world of Vampires, to the point where their spotlight antagonist in 2e is dedicated to those very purposes. It doesn't mean that every deployment of the Movement should be authoritarian, but it should certainly be a threat from within.

>>51129159
Has anyone used the Strix to run The Thing but with Vampires?

>>51129125
>Anything I don't agree with is propaganda

Whatever lets you sleep at night buddy

>>51110232
>Never ST'd nWoD before
>Running a mixed game
>Running a mixed game that includes Mages
>AND a fansplat
You're fucked no matter what you do senpai.

>>51129125
>I'm also all for calling out problematic aspects, but none of the ones here weren't present elsewhere.
It's mostly the tone. Vampire's books have never pretended Vampires aren't horrible abusive assholes for whom going to take a sunbath is probably the most moral option.

Beast's book bends over backwards to portray them as justified in everything they do.

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>>51129125
I was expecting autism what I got was well thought out understand of theme, points and discussion. Is it the Anti-X? Is the End NIGH?!

>>51129404
One would say Vampire books work really hard to convince you that all vampires are horrible assholes. It's like reverse Twilight/True Blood

>>51129125

Revolutions having potential downsides and becoming corrupt doesn't make them bad. It just means that there are threats and issues that a revolutionary should keep in mind. These same threats and issues would apply with the Movement.

>Co-ops are generally the kind of thing Marxists like

I know. Hence, "preferrably".

>I'm also all out for calling out problematic aspects
>But it's still just fiction

But if you are for that, then you know that it's not "just fiction". If the way Beasts feed can touch on ways that actively affect people's lives to the point where someone can point to a character and go "hey, my ex did that to me, what the fuck?" and the book just seems to gloss over that and focus on how they're just doing what it takes to survive, that's something that should be discussed. It's just a little bit too close to actual real world events and real abusive actions or some people.

Elsewhere in the games, there's a clear showing that the writers understand that they're writing about some heady things. Vampire 2e doesn't shy away from the very real harm it's characters do to people. Beast, on the other hand, only really has players shift uncomfortably in a game example, or a scene in the example adventure where the players can tell the antagonist that they might be doing something bad. There's simply not as much self-reflection or acknowledgement in the out of character section of the book, and that can lead to some unintended and unhealthy readings.

Of course the writers did not set out to write abuse apologia, or a revenge fantasy game. That it ended up reading like one anyways is an issue, though tragically one that wasn't going to be solved in a quick re-write of the game.

>But as a Beast that's literally a possibility

Again, this seems more like a matter of your ethical system than an objective fact.

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt aspel when you said "fascist carthians dont make much sense" but then i actually read the book and for someone who blindly defends every turd NWoD makes you really dont know shit about the carthians do you?

So as with your gender you are half right.

>"the book mentions it, but gives no clear indication of how or why such a thing would come about".

Except on page 12 that says "For fascist Carthians, this might mean strict authority held by a rotating dictatorial council." or the RCC explained in page 34

Page 40-41 "Example: Tenesse" shows how a Carthians came to power and fell into a fascist/totalitarian rule.

>>51126516
>Their two core traits are "Power to the People" and "Change is Necessary"

Wrong thats no the core precepts of the of the carthians, those are
"Tolerance within reason"
"Collective action"
"Individuals rights"
"The duty to be a complete being"

Can then Carthians be fascist? Sure they can because any form of goverment that dont follow the one of the invictus and respect the 4 tennets can be carthian. The core tenets of Fascism are Nationalism, Totalitarianism, state regulated economy and direct action.

All of those perfectly compatible with the carthian ideology.
Nationalism in the sense that the movement is a "nation" or joining the whole city as "nation" against external threats.

Totalitarism and individual right can coexist when there is a bigger fish to fry which the book even mention that a successful carthian government is one that unites when there is a bigger threat but collapses as soon as there are no enemies around. The tenets of individual rights refers more to practices, interest, obsessions and crusades all of which can be given a free pass from the Fascist carthians so long as they remain in charge and you pay your dues to the movement.

So I'm just learning the ins and outs of Requiem, 2E, and I have been on the lookout for finding some folks online, but the ones that recently found as close as to my timezone as possible seem to be a bit... unstable? I'm not talking about their personal stuff, it's just that their characters seem like That Guy stuff waiting to happen. There's basically one (((girl))) with her Daeva, who has some kind of sidestuff about being in love going on, then there's the Mekhet who from what I've read is a Lasombra in all but name (and minus Obtenebration of course), and then there's the Gangrel who's trying to RP as Damsel. It's just... should I just take a pass on this one? They're just a group of randoms, nothing special.

Seriously though, where could I possibly find some okay people just to play the game with and not feel dread when I take a look at their characters?

>>51129929
Just reuse your DnD red flags. How much Drizzle are we talking about? An impression or flat out thief ?

>>51126516
>Fascist Carthians
Easy to do and justify by Italian Fascism's crazy-ass standards.

>Kindred are all one nation, not as individuals.
>Princes and primogen have become degenerates, serving only their own selfish desires, willing to betray their fellow Kindred to advance their own individualist desires.
>Only the imposition of a strong ruler untainted by the decadence of the failing Danse Macabre system with the backing of strong, Kindred-centric Law can save the Kindred Nation.
>At the same time this Carthian Caesar must also defend the Kindred people from the degeneracy of secret societies, and weakness of cleaving too closely to kine ideals.

Think a less murderhobo version of the Sabbat, with snazzy uniforms and inherently self-contradicting ideals.
>> they believe that every man can and must have a voice, in death as he did in life, and that voice must be heard in order for peace or justice to prevail in the system — any system.

A Fascist Carthian would believe they represented the voice of the *collective* Kindred Volk as opposed to the selfish desires of individuals. No one said a covenant couldn't engage in doublethink.

>>51129404
>>51129438
Honestly I feel otherwise. I haven't exactly kept a list, but I've gotten a lot of a "sure, we're monsters, but we have a right to exist!" vibe from Vampire

>>51129343
"Revolutions never work" is literally part of the propaganda that the United States ran during the Cold War, when the CIA was using revolutionaries to undermine foreign nations.

>>51129409
No, it's X.

>>51129578
I'm well aware revolutions are dangerous. I mean, ask the French. But a Carthian Movement in an area is rarely going to be autocratic, since their whole schtick is to oppose autocracy. Where they are autocratic, it's likely to be more of a de facto than de jure, with charismatic leaders with lots of sway, as opposed to investitures of power. This is doubly true considering "Fascist Carthians" comes from 1e, and in 1e they had this kind of silly thing that Carthians could never ever run a city because of... I don't know, the Curse of Harlan Sanders.

>Re: Beast
I'm aware that Beasts are shitty and problematic. But at the same time, like I said, none of it has really seemed out of line with the usual World of Darkness stuff. It's also worth noting that I don't remember much of Vampire talking about players being uncomfortable at all like in the Hunger scene examples. Though I can't remember if it was in the original draft.

I also do remember places where Beast acknowledges that they're shitty. Although on the subject of rewrites, that one bit about Sin-You the Beast is... hilarious. (I don't know whether Sin-You is East-Asian or just a hilarious name). Instead of killing the shitty trucker it's just... "bet you won't be a jerkface anymore huh!"

>Again, this seems more like a matter of your ethical system than an objective fact.
No, I mean that within the mechanic of the games, you are outright encouraged to feed outside of your Hunger. It's the Family Dinner mechanic. You watch another super feed and it gives you Satiety. It's on page 90. It's literally voyeurism.

>>51130083
>"sure, we're monsters, but we have a right to exist!" vibe from Beast

Fixed that for you

>>51130082
Some Covenant Stereotypes for Cartho-Fascists
>Invictus are the feeble purveyors of slave morality
>Lancea et Sanctum uphold Tradition needed to ground the Kindred Nation, but they must be watch closely, lest they divide the Kindred Volk.
>Ordo Dracul are one of those secret societies that undermine the natural order. While each Kindred deserves to be able to pursue their potential, the Ordo Dracul teaches subversive doctrine that suggests vampires aren't already the pinnacle predator.
>The Circle of the Crone might hold onto ancient Tradition like the Lancea, but they're even more degenerate, spreading the practice of modernist promiscuity mixed with barbaric frivoltry. Should these elements be purged, it could make a perfect tool to spread Cartho-Fascist ideals.
>Cartho-Fascists must always be on guard against traitors in their own ranks, remaining vigilant to physically remove, so to speak, the democrats and socialists from their ranks.
I put way too much thought into this.

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>>51130106
You put just enough thought, good sir

>>51130171
Thank you. I hope I've inspired a few Storytellers who've gotten bored of the whole 'Carthians as Anarchs' thing.

It would be kinda cool to run a chronicle in a Carthian-controlled city based on Swing Kids.

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>>51129854
Neither of those examples really explain anything, which is what I said. They make mention of them, but that's about it.

>Wrong thats no the core precepts of the of the carthians, those are
https://vgy.me/vRbb77.png Not even going to bother saving and uploading it. Page 47/48 in the VtR 1e corebook.
Maybe try reading the books?
Hell, here's this one from page 95 of the book you're literally reading.

Tennessee doesn't describe fascism, it describes the kind of leftist boogeyman I keep saying to use. "Groupthink" is what Status Quo Warriors would call it.

The book keeps using the term Fascist, but only seems to be using it a boogeyman sort of way, like US politicians.

>>51130082
See, it's the Autocracy part that Carthians aren't likely to tolerate, not the "purge the thoughtcriminals" part.

>>51128907
>That still doesn't mean that potential problematic aspects shouldn't be called out and examined.
As much as I dislike Beast, I do have to say that's a flimsy argument. I've always been thought that the Author's Intention or your best, educated guess thereof always needs to be factored into any critique, lest the Critic invent whatever reading they want.

Is that the same thing as creating a "manufactured controversy?"

Not necessarily, but false readings still ought to be avoided.

>>51130105
No, see, we're talking about Beast. I'm saying that I get that vibe from Vampire as well. It was stronger in 1e, though. 1e did have more IC shit, like the clanbooks.

>>51130341
>It would be kinda cool to run a chronicle in a Carthian-controlled city based on Swing Kids.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swingjugend
???
Also, again, it's the Autocracy part I don't see Carthians falling for. You've basically described the Invictus, you just called them Carthians.

>>51130356
What is hypocrisy? Wouldn't be the first nor the last time the masses were swayed by con men into a political system they didn't sign up for

No one votes for a Tyrant King, thats why they were the mask of the every man. until the real decisions come up. then they fuck over their political and business rivals, and use propaganda to obfuscate it all away

>>51130454
I always like the endgame of Carthians just basically recreate an Invictus-like power structure because true democracy is impossibile in a supernatural population where age determines not only power and influence but also supernatural prowess

>>51130356
>See, it's the Autocracy part that Carthians aren't likely to tolerate, not the "purge the thoughtcriminals" part.

That's the thing about Autocracy, history tells us that people can and will overlook it if:
>it gives enough pretense to say it represents the will of the people (both Stalin and Hitler claimed to rule according to the will of their people) Indeed, 'The Will of the People' is an easy thing to fabricate, given the right means of thoughtcontrol
>and if the obvious authoritarian actions are taken against anyone but you, and in incremental steps ("First they came for the Socialist, etc.")

>>51130446
>The author will be babysitting you through your reading
Then whats the point of writing the book? I don;t understand why you're having such a hard time calling out bad writing? Unless you actually don't find a problem with the writing or subject matter which then makes you an apologist

The premise of Beast isn't that bad, but it was written really badly. They even had to rewrite it.

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>>51130573

>>51130083
>Where they are autocratic, it's likely to be more of a de facto than de jure, with charismatic leaders with lots of sway, as opposed to investitures of power.

Not entirely true, as their book says

"They believe in systems of governments rather than individuals of power. Carthians salute the office, for example, while the other covenants salute individual Kindred. Carthians respect titles, they defer to them, whereas the less progressive institutions of Kindred society historically grant titles to the individuals they want to have power.

>>51130083
>But a Carthian Movement in an area is rarely going to be autocratic, since their whole schtick is to oppose autocracy.

No, they oppose A type of autocracy.

>>51130083
>and in 1e they had this kind of silly thing that Carthians could never ever run a city because of... I don't know, the Curse of Harlan Sanders.

Except you know, those examples of Functioning carthians cities that their book provides. Colombia (victory for the moderate carthians), Tennesse and Ontario.

What their book does say though is that a Carthian government without enemies is gonna start fighting within.

Do you even read the books you furiously masturbate into every night?

>>51130454
>???
I meant this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swing_Kids_(film)

>You've basically described the Invictus, you just called them Carthians.

Oh absolutely. That was the thing about the Fascist Movement: it claimed to be revolutionary and anti-conservative, and yet- at the same time- supported Traditional structures and hierarchy.

Here's a good analysis of the inherently contradictory nature of Italian Fascism by Umberto Eco.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/

>>51130454
Beast specifically has ooc justifications and strawmen

Vampires had Its "rad to be bad" as the theme in character.

One has the author dictating to the reader what they should be feeling. The other lets the reader decide how to take the information

>>51130454
>>51130625
Also, never underestimate the tendency for revolutionary and populist movements to fall under the sway of eventually Authoritarian Caesarism.

>>51130654
The most successful revolutions are those that kill off the extremist factions on both sides of the haves and have nots. Then the Moderates on both sides come into a more equalized state. But like in all conflicts they're be causalities of third parties

>>51130356
>Hell, here's this one from page 95 of the book you're literally reading

Thats A style of Carthian goverment (when carthians go democratic), not the tenets of ALL carthians. The tenets of all Carthian are on page 30.

All carthians can ignore the tenets of carthian pure democracy and still be Carthians. No vampire can ignore the Tenets of page 30 and still be carthians.

>>51130356
>Neither of those examples really explain anything, which is what I said. They make mention of them, but that's about it.

What more do you want? You have an example of how a fascist carthian came to be, how it keeps it power and how it justify itself. What exactly do you need as an example?

>>51130083

>their whole schtick is to oppose autocracy

Which can be subverted or outright corrupted by the inner nature of the Vampire, regular human materialistic desires, or the outside forces of the Strix. There's also good old fashioned doublethink, as >>51130082 demonstrates.

"But they wouldn't tolerate that!" only works if people act directly from their values, which is never the case, even in revolutionary politics.

As for Beast, what makes it out of line is that even the out of character narrative voice seems to make justifications for what they do. That this is for the splat whose means of feeding tend to be the closest to real world abuses and crimes can leave a bad taste in a reader's mouth. It almost seems like an overcorrection for how potentially awful a Beast could act in-game, something that Vampire never needed because of how up front it was about the bad things Vampires do.

When a Vampire says they have the right to exist, it's explicitly out of selfishness and self-preservation, and the book knows that. When the book says Beasts have a right to exist, it just puts a period there and hopes the reader will put in the correct answer, though the second draft slightly corrects this.

>Family Dinner

I am aware of the mechanic. It doesn't change how the Beast feeds by default, which is what people who make those criticisms are focused on. That there's a handy Escape Clause doesn't make the issue go away, nor does it seem like the majority of Beasts in-fiction take advantage.

>>51130446

I see where you're coming from, and I do believe in false (or at least flimsy) readings, but the issue with a game corebook is that you have to ask who counts as the author. Is it the developer? Is it the writers of the individual portion? How do we figure out authorial intent with a highly collaborative work? Unless we can get access to the Beast bible and design discussions, Reader Response seems to be the only way to approach criticising the text.

>>51130454
>Also, again, it's the Autocracy part I don't see Carthians falling for. You've basically described the Invictus, you just called them Carthians.

Thing is you could put system of goverment that function just like the invictus but decides who is in charge by lotery and it could be a Carthian experiment.

>>51130712
Perhaps, but that describes an ideal system. The real world doesn't always work with ideal outcomes- the World of Darkness, less so.

>>51130770
>the issue with a game corebook is that you have to ask who counts as the author.
Fair point.

So....does anyone have a pdf of Hurt Locker?

>>51130803
>killing
>ideal
K Didn't know the Death Panels were still a meme going around

>>51130928
>[enter your political leaning here]-Wing Death Squads
>not ideal
What are you, some kind of lolbertarian?

>>51130966
Are you saying libertarians don't have death squads? They have some in Bioshock.

>>51130966
Privatizing Murder isn't going to solve the underlining problems with the electrical budget and relincing death chairs. What we need is an increase in public awareness of death implementation tools and safety courses. Elsewise it's the just plain koolieaid incident allover again. And if you just going to shut down the gun shows without putting anything in it's place. Thats not going to solve the problem for the working class.

>>51131115
Well, Death Squads all around then. It's what the people want.

>>51130498
>>51130549
>>51130593
"Killing the guy who's holding you down" is basically carthianism 101, though. Hell, they aren't above turning on former allies.
>Carthians salute the office, for example, while the other covenants salute individual Kindred. Carthians respect titles, they defer to them, whereas the less progressive institutions of Kindred society historically grant titles to the individuals they want to have power.
Exactly why it would be hard to hold power as a Carthian autocrat. Down with the king, long live the king.
I'm not even sure you know what autocracy is at this point...

>>51130559
Anon, it turns out there's more than just two extremes.

>>51130625
>>51130654
>>51130770
I knew what you meant, I was being funny
Also, the thing about the actual Fascism movement is that I honestly don't think it would have worked in a system where you can't even fill a school auditorium.
Carthian Fascism wouldn't really be fascism (which, admittedly is a super poorly defined term to begin with). It'd be more like... Well, more of an oligarchy, for one. Like a Carthian quorum dictating the rule of the rest of the Kindred, who's voices are *heard*, but not really listened to. But for people *within* the movement? I can't see them bowing to actual authoritarians, outside of cults of personality that aren't official leadership. I'm trying not to use it as an example because someone whined last time, but 4chan's idea of how Tumblr works is a good example. Or, really, how 4chan works.

>>51130712
Moderates are historically useless. It's people on the extreme end who get things done, for good or ill.

>>51131115
Those aren't death squads, those are private citizens retaliating against you after you violated NAP with your parasitism.

>>51131187
>I honestly don't think it would have worked in a system where you can't even fill a school auditorium.
Well, I mean, you could if you ghouled an entire School Auditorium's worth of people.

>>51130793

>CHANGE PLACES: the Vampire government

This would be gloriously terrible. I love it.

>>51131187
>I can't see them bowing to actual authoritarians, outside of cults of personality that aren't official leadership.
Actually, that would make a lot of sense for Cartho-Fascism. A cult of personality could easily form within a group like the Carthians, and easily remove it's ideological opponents before becoming dominating faction within the Covenant.
Based on the city-focussed nature of VtR, it wouldn't be hard to imagine a Fascist faction based on Kindred nationalism taking over the local Carthian Movement, and becoming *the* expression of Carthianism within the city.

>>51131187
>Moderates
are historically the most stable and willing to compromise for continued betterment of all involved. Because they don't demonize the other side and practice empathy without needing to rationalize extreme dogma. So yeah fuck you Aspel, you uncreative cunt. Go castrate yourself if you're that cuckolded

>>51131414
>willing to compromise
Well, they do compromise with whatever faction that eventually takes over, so neither of you are technically wrong...

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>>51131218
I meant that Kindred governments are by necessity rather small, so it's a lot harder for a small group to maintain control. The whole group is already small.

>>51130793
>>51131308
Lottery based everything/CHANGE PLACES the government would be an interesting way to implement the Veil of Ignorance.
https://youtu.be/P3gWGtf_w_s

>>51131315
See, I can see that working, but a core component of Fascism is a lack of democracy and an authoritarian head. For Carthian "Fascism", it would be more like the Carthian Movement *as a whole* is the Autocrat for all of Kindred society, possibly lead by a de facto thought leader. And, of course, a thought leader who's head is on the plate if he doesn't lead the thoughts right.
Think mob rule mixed with that trope of cargo cultists sacrificing their "god".
Or basically a Carthian Clique running the All Night Society.

>>51131414
You mean they're the ones who compromise with the Right in ways that prohibit change and growth, and often restrict the rights of minorities, pic related.

Well, at least this one's got fairly close to the bump limit before going to shit.

So who was the best artist in V:TM?

Personal favorites: Ken Meyer, Jr., Joshua Gabriel Timbrook, Christopher Shy and Timothy Bradstreet.

Leif Jones a shit.

>>51126469
>I trusted Onyx Path to do a decent job with Mage 20th.

That was your first mistake: don't trust 'em to do a good job with anything, but relish the rare opportunities when they get their shit together.

By all means, being skeptical and waiting to see whether it's worth buying is wise, but when they *DO* manage to make something awesome, you'd have to be pants-on-head retarded to not pick it up.

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>>51126469
>I trusted Onyx Path

>>51131739
brom

>>51131187
>I'm not even sure you know what autocracy is at this point...

First thats at least 2 anons you are responding to.

>>51131187
>"Killing the guy who's holding you down" is basically carthianism 101, though. Hell, they aren't above turning on former allies.

Your understanding of the Carthians boils down to "i read their blurb on the core" or even more accurately "i only read the anarchs of Masquerade but i dont wanna admit it". Get out of the masquerade closet Aspel, we know you like it.

>Exactly why it would be hard to hold power as a Carthian autocrat. Down with the king, long live the king.

Your understanding of Fascism or in this case Autocracy is lacking your keep harping on an singular individual. In the case of the quote of the book, you "curiously" miss the following paragraph

"For fascist Carthians, this might mean strict authority held by a rotating dictatorial council."

You quote means that carthian can function in fascist/autocratic form of government in which the office on top is the one who dominates. The system makes it as 1 office hold the power but the office survives the officer.

>>51131187
>Like a Carthian quorum dictating the rule of the rest of the Kindred, who's voices are *heard*, but not really listened to. But for people *within* the movement? I can't see them bowing to actual authoritarians, outside of cults of personality that aren't official leadership.

Lots of implying there. Implying that the Carthians in that Fascist Carthian government would have anything to say, when most likely they get the best cut from the pie. Why ignore the voices when you can keep them content while strengthening your position.

Carthian fascist government could favor all the carthian in it while the oppression is felt to the rest of the city.

>>51131739
>Leif Jones a shit.

He is not as bad as Ron Spencer though.

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>>51131739
>Leif Jones a shit.

*Some* of his pics in V20 were alright, like the one of the Ahrimane bloodline. From what I've seen, he sucks at making any vampire look human or civilized, but he does have some slight skill when it comes to the more savage stuff.

As for personal favourite, I kinda like Jackson's work.

>>51131855
>First thats at least 2 anons you are responding to.
Yes, and I specifically meant the one in the part that was quoted. Which also seems to have been you.
But, again, I don't think you actually know what fascism or autocracy are. So I don't really think there's a point in arguing with you.
Hint: A rotating dictatorial council is not actually fascism.

Alright, based on the stawpoll I've decided on Mage (which coincidentally happens to be the winner). Come make a character and apply for the game. https://app.roll20.net/lfg/listing/66261/the-flower-city

>>51130083
>Sin-You
Fan fact. It's an actual creature of Eastern myth, responsible for brutal justice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin-you

>>51131604
>See, I can see that working, but a core component of Fascism is a lack of democracy and an authoritarian head.
Well, I'd argue that Carthianism isn't necessarily democratic in modern sense. While it is usually presented as egalitarian, it doesn't have to be ideologically pure. It's end goal is to remove the 'unjust' control of Elders and their neo-feudal control over the All-Night Society.

For Cartho-Fascism to work, it would have to contain an element of egalitarianism and include a measure of anti-feudalism.

Both of these can be answered with Kindred Nationalism and Corporatism. What do I mean by this?
>All Kindred are 'equal' in that they are the predators that deserve to rule over Kine
>All Kindred, while members of different clans are still all extended family within the bounds of the Blood
>The Elders and their Feudal system run counter to these principals
>They subvert the Will of the People, and profit off of them without returning anything to the nation

Now, this probably sounds like socialism at this point. Now you add a dash Corporatism and the justification for hierarchy into the ideological stew we have simmering.
>Kindred, while 'equal,' are not identical
>Just as the body of is made up of organs and cells, each with their own tasks, so too does each member of the Kindred Nation have their own function in the All-Night Society
>The Brain thinks for the body, but it does not betray it. So too does the Leader lead the Nation, without enslaving it.
>Each organ has its own tasks. Some organs are less vital than others, but each has its own place, as appointed by nature.
>So to are some kindred put under the authority of others, but so long as each acts in a way that benefits the All-Night Society, all are equal in its survival.
>However, even the most fit body develops cancer, and so too can the Kindred Nation
>Therefore cancers must sometimes be purged
>The Nation is the sum of it's parts, so if one organ fails, the rest will soon follow.

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>>51132007
Shuyin?

>>51132007
Ah! That makes a lot more sense. I thought it was a human name, not his Horror. The new version also gets rid of the horn-through-the-heart thing, and instead has him cut the guy's cheek like Dexter.

>>51132041
I think this could work, so long as you keep in mind that Carthians are willing to cut their own head off and replace it. It's like a stereotypical high school clique. They've got someone giving the orders even if they're all ostensibly even, but if the queen bee falls or upsets the balance, a new queen will take over.

>>51132041
Con't
So, with that as the ideological basis, you have a picture of a Carthian City that pursues it's core goal applying a form of equity to Kindred Society, while still having a paradoxical justification for authoritarian hierarchy.

Also, it gives a reason for Carthian Law: Carthian Law isn't just some form of 'blood magic,' it's the proof positive of 'Nature's Eternal Cartho-Fascism'.

>>51131971
>Hint: A rotating dictatorial council is not actually fascism.

Someone hasnt read southamerican fascist governments.

>>51132120
>Carthians are willing to cut their own head off and replace it.
>if the queen bee falls or upsets the balance, a new queen will take over.
If I didn't know any better, I'd say that's decent chronicle hook right there.

>>51132054
I don't know these characters. Does any of them resemble a pissed off Quilin?

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>>51132316
Maybe

>>51115490
No one knows? I'd be a bit surprised if there wasn't one.

>>51132435
I'm sorry. It's like you're speaking a different language.

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>>51132471

>>51132600
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP0sqRMzkwo

Going to make a CofD game in Argentina
Help pls

>>51133045

First and most important question: do you live in Argentina?

>>51133045
>Going to make a CofD game in Argentina
>Help pls

What line?

>>51133254
I did

>>51103618
I'm pretty new at this. Can someone help me to identify a creature we had to face today?

He was a tiger headed dude from an asian suplement. He had a sword and different "weaboo fightan magic" skills. He was not a weretiger but a demon from oriental hell.

>>51133590
What gameline?

>>51133605
Old world of darkness sorry. I think he's from a hell related splatbook for the oriental world of darkness book.

>>51133260
Vampire

>>51133590
Basing this off of nothing I've ever read from a WoD supplement but it sounds like a Rakshasa

>>51133770
I googled it and apparently White Wolf uses this word in a completely different way than D&D.

>>51131731
that's because it started as shit

>>51133757
>>51133590
By asian and oriental I mean what I've found it's called Kindred of the East. We're not Kuei jins though.

>>51126720
>Forsaken
>Furfags

Wow, you don't remember how much Apocalypse actually says 'YOU CAN PLAY A WOLF AND YOU SHOULD FUCK WOLVES IF YOU DO AND YOU CAN HANG AROUND IN YOUR MURDER FORM TO TALK LIKE A FURSONA!' type shit.

>>51126868
Secrets of the Covenants isn't worth shit. It's a bunch of fiction, that doesn't talk about how the covenants work except through specific character lenses, and then shitty mechanics.

>>51133590
Doesn't mean it has to be from a gameline. It could just be usng existing powers 'cause your ST went 'I want a tiger monster'.

>>51134073
Nah, he was specifically reading a book and even showed me the picture. It was the one that deals with the asian hells (Yomi it was?).

>>51134114
I think it's a Corpse Tiger Demon, a higher servant of the Yama King Wu Hua. (Thousand Hells, p.98)

Is there anything else you want to know?

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>>51134114
Was this the image?

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>>51127836
>Stop getting your knowledge from 1950s era propaganda.
>The Soviet Union wasn't authoritarian

>>51134407

>>51134239
Yes it was this guy and therefore probably >>51134214

I would basically like to know more about him. I got to chat a bit while fighting him, but I got nothing from it except that he's educated and kind of honorable (still refused to use a normal sword like me instead of a magic one). The battle was left unresolved and now he likes/hates me and I will meet him again for sure, so I would like as a player to have a general notion of who the fuck is my new rival.

>>51134019
What do you think about the Clanbooks?

>>51134791
I replied in the new thread, >>51134608

>>51134392
The Soviet Union wasn't Left, but it still seems to be the only thing you associated with the Left.

>>51134870
>No true Scotsman