Warmachine/Hordes General

>>51069965
Wow... don't quite know what happened with half of that. I'll blame posting from a phone.

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>>51069965

Good lord that is a beautiful Warjack! This, to me at least, is what a Mentoth Jack should look like. Just comparing it to some of my old plastics and it makes them look ugly....

Anyways, finished another pig for my growing horde list.

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So apart from how I don't think his eyes came out of the mould particularly well since they didn't seem to be there, he is finished!

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>>51070266

>>51070281
The only lamp I have is a small LED one that I use to help me paint. I intentionally turned it off because it was basically doing what flash does.

>>51070266

From what I can tell, I like it, but its hard to judge the photo due to reasons given >>51070281. Even a fool can manage to take good photos if they follow these instructions.

So I checked out Discount Games and was surprised to see Cryx having won/placed top three some tournaments.
What's up with that? I though Cryx was trash

>>51069965
This is a new PoM Character Jack right?

Are Skorne elves or human or something else?

Because they sure look like really ugly elves to me.

>>51071572
Yes, it's Malekus character Jack, the Eye of Truth. Got some kind of fire eye laser, can grant blessed weapons and I think it even had built in Oracular Vision

>>51070798

It's almost like public opinion isn't objective truth. Wait, tell the press! This is fucking huge!

>>51071674

Officially, according to PP, they are entirely their own race. They existed alongside the Elves for a long time but, ultimately, they are just "Skorne."

What their actual history is however isn't really known. They have no Gods and lived a harsh life before coming fully into being a civilized people, other than that we got no clue where they came from.

>>51071770
And why are they so pissed at Cygnar even after Vinter kicked the bucket?

>>51071713
He looks like Anson's Jack.

>>51071838
Because Vinter was able to unify them for, really, the first time in their history. Now that Makeda is in charge they want to try taking over other peoples instead of fighting each other.

>>51071838

They aren't. They went after Cygnar because of Vinter but after they figured out that Vinter was sabatoging their conquest because he was planning on taking the throne and then wiping them out afterwards, they got rid of him and shifted their focus towards going after Ios to settle some old grudges.

They only stick around in the iron kingdoms for general "conquest." They are just trying to take more land and fuck shit up really. Their real beef is with the elves.

>>51070798
If you play with some tournament level players instead of whiny bitches, they will show you that Cryx are still fine (we have a guy in our meta that plays Cryx and he defeated a Caine2 list the other day down to just having Caine2 alive)

Really sick of PP's shit. Next week's theme force batch won't have any Mercenaries themes because they already have Cephalyx, Kingmaker's and Rhul, but Pirates are literally impossible to play right now. Doesn't PP understand that Pirates needed a theme force the most because even in Mk2 there was only one way of playing them (A Pirate's Life)?

Most of us don't care about pirate bruh, don't play mercs and use only 20% of the faction.

>>51070798
Coven and Satyxis are really fucking good.

>>51072183
They aren't impossible to play, man.You can run them just fine.

And beyond that, welcome to Mercs. If they'd done pirates and now Dwarves, there'd be people bitching about that instead. You've gotten three lists in the time most factions have gotten one, simmer down.

>>51072183
I don't get this. Is your meta ultra competitive? Is it Haley2/3, Wurmwood, Tuna, HR and shit all day? Don't people play subpar casters and field subpar units? Why aren't there people that want to play some games with their jank units or maybe dusts some stuff off and finally put it on the table again?

>>51074295
No one actually plays these lists, we just complain about them.

>>51074489
Assholes in my game group do, its annoying, and then when they play something else and its a bad matchup they decree they "have" to only play the good casters

>>51069965
> Protectorate spoilers!!
For some reason I read that as Protectorate yourself !!, which is really fitting since this guy seems to have triple plating and a ribbed loincloth

>>51071674
They're the IK's version of hobgoblins.

They have the same ears and forehead ridges of gobbers, they're just human-sized.

>>51074864
Huh, you're right. Weird I didn't notice it earlier.

>>51074580
We're late. The Trollblood stuff got leaked Friday night before release.

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>>51074580

You gotta check yourself before you Protectorate yourself.

>>51075156
B-but I wrack from there, Scrutator-sama....

I'm thinking of getting into Gatormen as my first Hordes list, what's viable and what's not? I'm a CoC player, so I don't have a lot of experience with mercs or minions.

What can I do with three goraxes?

>>51076342
Play three Circle lists simultaneously.

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Behold pic related, today's scenario, the one with two big circle objectives. Basically, on turn 1 I can get a Gladiator, aka. the yardstick to Skorne heavies, 17" up the table. Now with my 10" charge range, I can threaten something that's 27" up the table on turn 2. The problem? If my opponent just toes the zone with his shit, there is NOTHING I can do about it. I cannot clear a zone on turn 2, and if his threat range is bigger than 10", I just can't do anything at all. It's like on this scenario, Skorne is at a huge mathematical disadvantage because of the size of the circles.

I played this scenario today against Amon using Rasheth, and honestly it wasn't even close. Mobility is absolute fucking horseshit on its own but holy shit he has Synergy on top of that? If I come up against a Menoth player at the Steamroller coming up in a few weeks which I'm likely to, I am using Makeda3, choosing to go 2nd, slapping my army smack bang in front of his, and going for a hardcore assassination. Like nigger my assassination will be a thing of legend. Because it's not like Skorne can win any other way. Don't even get me started on Dervishes.

>>51076582
Or two circle lists and one Arkadius list. That means he could play with himself!

>>51069965
I really don't get the hate mark 3 got. In my opinion it fixed all the major problems mark 2 had such as all of the cheap weapon master infantry spam or the fact that only menoth could effectively run jack heavy. All in all I think Mark 3 was a huge success other than killing off Vinter.

>>51076603
You may have heard of the 89 changes in the Skorne errata coming this month?

>>51076703
Mark 3 is shit, because premeasuring is stupid when it's not from the caster's control range and being unable to circumvent the DEF stat by throwing things at it ruined the game forever.

>>51076907
>Soon™

>>51076958
Mk3 would be fine if certain models weren't glaringly weak while others go around crushing people.

>>51076971

So you're saying MK3 is just like MK2 except Jacks are better now?

>>51077268
The relative buff to war jacks and the nerf to beasts makes hordes wayyyyy weaker then warmachine.

Mk2 power lvls:
Cryx

Legion, Circle, Cygnar
Menoth, Trollbloods,
Skorne, Khador,
Ret

Minions/Mercs

Now it's :
4 lists are S tier

Warmachine
Hordes.

>>51077368
Allow me to fix your lists.

>Mk2 Top tier
Cryx, Cygnar
>Mk2 Mid tier
Everyone else
>Mk2 Shit tier
Minions

But yeah, Mk3 is being dominated by specific lists, not factions. Wurmwood didn't crush because he was a Circle caster, he crushed because he had a stupid feat and some insane spells. Amon doesn't crush because he's a Menoth caster, he crushes because he has 2 of the best spells in the game and a strong feat.

So that troll book, where's the PDF?

>>51077368

Yeah. I do agree with that.

I think it's reached a point where Fury isn't that huge of an upgrade from Focus. So they need to start bringing the price of Warbeast heavies down across the board and maybe increasing the cost of some very cheap heavy warjacks.

A 1 to 2 point drop on probably 2/3rds of heavy Warbeasts actually seems appropriate.

As for your ranking, I actually don't think it's "just 4 lists." People haven't really even explored what they can do yet and there are people out there using different stuff. We just have limited info right now. They've already started hitting the worst stuff as well.

As for "Warmachine > Hordes." What about Circle and Cryx? Legion and Trolls remain fairly competitive and Circle is top tier where as Cryx is pretty near the bottom. It's really just a matter of cost changes that will make Trolls and Legion fine. Skorne is getting a rework which could go either way.

Right now the worst thing going is Cryx. Everything else doesn't actually seem that bad except for the extreme examples which are already starting to go down in stock.

Hell, even Minions/Mercs are pretty good right now. Just wish they would get some new casters.

Plus, it's not like most of MK2 didn't have a small handful of S-Tier casters that showed up constantly. The difference is that, for all it's faults, PP has made an actual effort to not let it be that way for 5 or 6 years without much change.

I am just not really as salty as everyone else seems to be I guess.

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>>51077646
>where as Cryx is pretty near the bottom

>>51077646
Circle is only top tier with Wurmwood.

I rank the factions not on their ability to field a competitive steamroller pairing, rather on the quality of choice in the faction.

Cryx took the biggest hit because no one owns the models that are good right now, they may have gotten a nerf hammer rather then the bat, but i think PP will fix that.

For Example PoM is my faction and for the most part is always a mid tier faction say a B- Rating, but because PoM requires so many different parts to make the army work, you can always field a decent list baring a few casters and models.. Cryx in mk2 had 3 S tier casters that everyone played and played the same way, when the nerf in mk3 gutted those casters all the cryx players that play because cryx was good left.

Jacks are just so much better in mk3 then beasts IMHO Cryx still out performs most Hordes factions.

>>51077885
Um, have you heard of Una2?

>>51077935
I knew I was forgetting someone, I've never played una2.

>>51077885

Tanith, Krueger2, Kaya2, Morvahna1 and 2 all still exist. Plus Wurmwood only changed his feat.

I'd say Circle is in a pretty good place honestly. They have a lot of good casters.

>>51077268
And internal balance scale is way too fucking all over the place.

It's so blatantly obvious what each faction's ideal pairings are that, matchups have become very stale. With more restrictions between model interactions being introduced, it's becoming harder and harder to take stuff that's objectively weak for jank success.

I like big fat and chunky units, like MMM and jackspam.

What faction should I go other than CoC?

>>51079869
Any faction with a MAT7 PS18-19 heavy that only costs 10-12 points.

Oh wait that's fucking all of them.

>>51079931
Menoth only has a Mat6 PS-18 heavy for 10-12
;) 21 with EoM and Chior for Psevy

>>51079931
Are memers'o'war finally viable?

>>51080025
You mean a MAT9 PS23 heavy because Amon is the only caster you should be running.

>>51080038
Shocktroopers are actually pretty strong. But then again you're talking to a Skorne player whose equivalent unit costs more for lower armour, less boxes, and less weapons. And our UA costs more.

>>51077935
My HR was a good answer to Una2. The Reclaimer knows a good receipie for hot fried griffon wings, sadly he wont tell you.

>>51080178
Does Flashing Blade target the models it hits?

>>51080101
Good!

http://conflictchamber.com/#b31b0f7w7u8t7Qgd7S7W7T8q

Khador Army - 75 / 75 points

(Old Witch 1) The Old Witch of Khador [+18]
- Scrapjack
- Behemoth [25]
- Spriggan [19]
Kovnik Jozef Grigorovich [4]
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max) [16]
- Man-o-War Shocktrooper Officer [4]
Winter Guard Infantry (max) [10]
- Winter Guard Rocketeer (3) [6]
- Winter Guard Infantry Officer & Standard [4]
Man-O-War Kovnik [5]

Does this work more or less?

WinterGuard Death Star(still good?)+witch to eat small units, melee behemoth that gets there fast with apparition and same for spriggan to pop enemy cans, and Shocktroopers and kinda solo-ish for objective taking?

>>51080217
If you want the Spriggan to use against enemy heavies, he's generally overcosted. The Juggernaut is probably not beatable efficiency wise if you want to trade it into other heavies and even then the Spriggan is not that impressive stat-wise. Just take a quick look in the Khador pdf, it's in the trove (link in OP).
WGI has mostly been phased out for the Rifle Corps with Kovnik Joe added

>>51080212
Flashing blade makes an attack against every enemy in melee range. The attacks follow normal rules, and the first step is targeting.

>>51080217
>Does this work more or less?
>"you're talking to a Skorne player"
Frankly from what I've experienced in Mk3 so far, it doesn't work because you don't have enough heavies. Iron Fang Pikemen are strong because MAT7 PS13 is stupid, but otherwise you shouldn't really be bothering with Khador infantry when their heavies are nigh-impossible for some factions to deal with. It's that extra point of ARM you get for free just seriously please PP.

>>51080278
Bleurgh. I was hoping it would function the same way Magic functions. "Can't be hit by melee attacks and gets +4DEF against ranged and magic attacks" seriously whose stupid idea was that? Can't even throw a friendly directly away to land on them anymore. But hey, I can bring a beast with Spiny Growth as an animus, right? The Razor Worm and the Rhinodon are totally great beasts.

>>51080283
>I only parrot whatever I hear on /wmg/
Check this Irusk 2 list out:
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/966

Irusk 2 [Armory]
Irusk 2
Torch
Juggernaut
Winter Guard Mortar Crew
Winter Guard Rifle Corps (max)
Winter Guard Rocketeer
Winter Guard Rocketeer
Winter Guard Rocketeer
Man-O-War Shocktroopers (max)
Man-O-War Shocktroopers Officer
Iron Fang Pikemen (max)
Iron Fang Pikemen UA
Jozef Grigorovich
Man-O-War Kovnik

It even has the MoW Shocktroopers. If you check Discount Games for like 2 minutes you will see quite a few Khador lists with 2-3 premium or simple quality jacks and then filled with infantry (mostly WGRC but whatever, as long as your meta not always mirrors high end tournaments, you're fine with MoWs)

>>51080343
Is this Una? Magic while in the same melee doesn't get the +4, sprays ignore it too.

>>51080424
Wait I was under the impression that spells cast into melee were the same as ranged attacks. Or do you mean say if you crowd my caster with birds and my caster throws spells, THEN there's no +4?

>>51080378
Nigger that's a WTC list from when Wurmwood was the big bad boogeyman. Irusk2 gunlines were THE counter to Wurmwood because Irusk2 doesn't actually care about a fuckhuge forest. That list is a heavy meta call from before the errata, so if you take it to your LGS you'll probably get your shit pushed in and feel bad for spending so much money on infantry in Mk3.

>>51080178
I used Cleansers with Hand of Fate and the Aim command. 20 Hp Arm 13/14 Models cant stand flamethrowers.

>>51080101
>Only caster
BOIIII If you don't

Amon is for sure a top 5 PoM caster but he's not the only one to run.

>>51080521
Then what about this crazy fucker here?
http://www.discountgamesinc.com/tournaments/players/view/1320
All three lists meta calls?
There's definitely infantry around (see Cryx lists that are also winning, despite bringing more infantry than jacks, but I guess that's because Cryx are just that much garbage).
If there's top lists with infantry around, why can't it be around at more casual levels?

>>51080649
He's a Skorne player, so his mad jealousy and inferiority complex will make him overestimate other stuff by a large shot.
Protectorate definitely seems like it has the most viable stuff. The only glaring problems seem to be Errants vs Idrians and heavy infantry being bad in general (not just Cinerators&Bastions).
Blessed be those that walk Caen in the name of the Creator.

>>51080649
Rush is considered a top tier animus. It's 2 for +2" and pathfinder. Meanwhile Amon can give his entire battlegroup +2SPD and pathfinder for 3. Mobility alone makes him strong as shit, but then he has Synergy on top of it. MAT10 PS18 Dervishes? Like nigger that's some Mk2 Molik Karn levels of stupid. Pop feat, upkeep Synergy, cast Mobility, bam you've got 2 Dervishes that can on average murder any yardstick heavy in a non-Khador faction that's within 12". And the cunts ignore free strikes. Amon is easily the best caster in Menoth, with the High Reclaimer not far behind.

>tfw your entire faction is so overcosted that making back your points requires too much butt clenching to have fun

>>51080745
Yeah I'm upsettii my Errants got shit on considering I don't like Idrians *Kreoss is my favorite Caster and K2 is my favorite variant.*


>>51080754
Have you tried killing the support models when fighting PoM?

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>>51077451
>mk2 mid tier
>Khador

>>51080966
>Have you tried killing the support models when fighting PoM?
Honestly that's what I spent my entire last game trying to do. An arced Breath from Rasheth took out 2 Choir members and a Vassal because he bunched too hard, then my Shaman and Raider no but seriously if no one's using infantry these cunts are insane with Rasheth picked off the remaining 2 Choir from that side of the table, but the problem was the other side of the table where Amon and like 3 heavies were pushing into a zone. Everything had a bigger threat range, everything had huge damage output. Even if Orin could've gone anywhere near firing a bolt at his other Choir (his jacks couldn't be hit by spells all game), he knew to position in such a way that the lightning would just arc away into jacks after the first hit.

I couldn't have done more to take out his support, but taking out his support 1) costs time, and 2) requires me to come forwards. How do you beat an army that has bigger threat ranges and much higher damage output?

>>51080754
I play a lot of Amon. I don't think Dervishes are worth taking over 10 pt MAT 9 PS 23 Crusaders.

I love watching people pop a defensive feat and still have their colossal wrecked.

>>51081093
Dervishes are a cheap way to get Synergy maxed out, and with multiple initials, sidestep, and parry, can find themselves in weird situations killing things they really shouldn't be killing. Your opponent has to always bear the threat of assassination from them in mind. They might not seem like a lot, but MAT10 PS18 will kill a caster.

>>51081049
Assassination

>>51081169
Honestly that's already become my plan since that game today. My pairing is Rasheth / Makeda3. So I pick Makeda, go 2nd, dump my entire army in front of his caster, and run the pain train on his asshole. It's great having a caster that hits like a truck and has parry because everyone's terrified of triggering battle driven.

>>51081049
How do you beat any alpha strike armies? You have to eat the strike and either grind it out or break through to hit the key parts. Go for an assassination run if you can't fight it out.

What the fuck is wrong with Trolls. I bought into them as my first faction because the models look sweet but the numbers dont match. Big bubble of +2ARM and +1STR for 12 points sounds awesome, as long as you dont notice how every model in your army is 2ARM and 2 STR too low for its cost, so you effectively end up with -12pts. Shit sucks. Also, rage on a 15 pts beatstick. Awesome. If it wasnt for how all your heavies are >15pts and have 16 P+S on average.

>>51081266
Oh, and the only other damage buff available is primal on a 21pts character heavy and +2STR with beatback for one model from one warlock.

>>51081201
Skorne plays the opposite of mk2 menoth now,
mk2 menoth had to win on scenario most of the time, now skorne has to assassinate to win.

>>51081266
Example, I don't know all the troll stuff off the top of my head,

10 points for the Crusader
Speed 4
Mat 6
PS: 18/14
Arm 19
Def 10

>>51081306
>now skorne has to assassinate to win.

This is true. You have to make like you are obviously going for scenario and trying but failing to conceal your actual attention to win by attrition, and then kick in with your real plan of pulling off an assassination before you run out of guys.

>>51076958
Premeasuring has pretty much created a game of perfect threat ranges.You either need to be able to shoot, have a longer charge range than your opponent, have access to non-charge threat extemsion (i.e. Hellmouth) or be able to eat a charge and counterstrike. The first two options are available to nearly all factions (nearly, mind you), but the third is limited to only a few factions, and eating a charge is equally lacking unless you have huge numbers of boxes or single wound models with ARM of 20 or higher.

>>51082093
It was almost the exact same thing with command range measuring though. Yes, you would have to guess a bit and might've been off by an inch a few sometimes. But almost of the time, it was so easy to "cheat" your units into perfect distance anyway.

Cleaning that up was both better for newer players and fixed a loophole everyone needed to abuse in order to play the game.

I'm normally against pre-measuring (see; Warhammer 8th), but in a game in which it always existed anyway, I make an exception.

>>51082093
Basic geometry and command checking gave most players the tool to know the distance anyway now the game is streamlined

>>51081266
Trolls numbers look gank because if the enemy only buys into numbers he will find your army obnoxiously good at not dying.
Tough is easy to play around but they do still get milage out of it.
Also most troll models can eat most non warmachine models if I understand things correctly.
A troll heavy with a buff will trash most things you need to trash. Then again, in the short time I've played I feel like actually attacking a khador heavy jack is usually a bad idea. Slam it or something if you cannot go around.

Trollbloods are make up for being jank by conventional measure by being annoying to kill and being gaining buffs from each other.
They sorta rely on lots of jank shit piled together till it is unstoppable. Like a much less elegant protectorate.

This is if I understand things correctly on paper. I don't get to play often enough to ACTUALLY know what im talking about.

Hey, I was curious about how good you guys felt Fury was inherently vs Focus.

On the one hand, at their core Fury works better than Focus. Focus has to be allocated at the top of the round, and if the round for whatever reason fails to play out the way you expected, your focus is right where you left it. Fury can be generated in response to circumstances though. If your heavy's dice are hot he can use less fury than you expected freeing up space for others to go nuts.

That said, the generation/leeching game looks really hard. Especially because from the cards I've seen, warlock fury is usually lower than warcaster focus. This means unless you spam fury managers you will have trouble actually doing as much stuff as a fully operational Warmachine army (when their plan pulls through).

I'm pretty new, but I'm kinda looking to see whether or not I'm completely off base.

>>51083484

Basically.

Both are action economies, and have advantages and disadvantages. Fury lets you choose where to generate it on demand, and lets you run "hot" (with substantial risk) and go over your Fury management abilities by risking Frenzy checks.

Their defensive abilities are different -- Fury is (as long as you've got a battlegroup left) better at keeping your caster alive, but at the same time damage transferred from Fury goes somewhere, while (the typically smaller amount of) damage soaked by Focus just goes away. Focus does have an advantage here that you can camp (i.e., sit with more on your caster to use defensively as opposed to spending it) more without hamstringing your action economy on the next turn.

It mostly boils down to both Focus and Fury are "action points" of a sort, and Fury gives you more *maximum* "action points" to deal with, while Focus (thanks to Power Up) tends to give you more *safe* "action points" to deal with.

And then Warjacks (Focus-base) tend to be cheaper at similar levels of competence as compared to Warbeasts (Fury-based), so that while Fury is *probably* better as a mechanic than Focus, it doesn't make Hordes armies as a whole necessarily better than Warmachine armies.

>>51083484
Fury was undoubtedly more powerful than Focus in mk2, because Fury management was so good threshold so high, that it didn't involve any risks, hence the nerfs.

In mk3, I would still say that Fury is more powerful, but Warbeasts are worse than Jacks, so it doesn't seem that way.

>>51084175

Threshhold was never high. Frenzy just had a more forgiving version of "lose an activation" in mk2. Losing activations matters, and losing activations to no effect/own-goaling your own models is that and more.

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>>51069965
*Gatecrashes Behind You* Nothing Personal, Kid

>>51069965
Who is this steam dream?

>>51076603
So, not to be a dick or to state the obvious or nothin, maybe use something other than a gladiator to get into the zone first?

I like keltarii for first wave into a zone, they tie them up really well.

>>51081332
Well warbeasts are more expensive than warjacks, but I do believe the mauler is well worth its point in comparison to the crusader

>spd 5
>mat 6
>p+s16
>arm 18(20)
>def 12, which is pretty relevant
>fury 5
>rage
I'm sure I've forgotten something since I don't have the cards on me


Hell the bomber probably compares favorably to the vanquisher for a really similar point investment.

>>51084969
I hate that I think he's cool. I even like his model. Fucker.

>>51085732
Two fists is super relevant.

>>51085785
nah he's my fav too, I was reading Blood of Kings and there's a moment where Caine does something like that

>>51076163

What's not viable: Gatorman Posse, Boneswarm, Bull Snapper in most cases

What's viable: Everything else they can take

>>51081139

Synergy doesn't care about multiple initials as far as getting it maxed out. The boost stacks for each friendly model that hits, not each time a friendly model hits.

>>51086183

A spd5 model with mat 7s with sidestep is more likely to get in the hits that start a successful Synergy chain than a spd 4 with mat6 and little else.

It's nice to have a Crusader or some other heavies for that oomph at the end of a Synergy chain, but Dervishes do set it up better and cost fewer points. Most lists run a combination.

>>51081093
>>51081139
>>51086183
>>51086632
Someone actually used that against me and my janky Old Witch list. What an asshole.

>>51086183
It's more that synergy is better with more attacks, so if it's maxed, the Dervish gets more use out of it than most.

>>51086887

What were you running with Old Witch?

>>51081306
Skorne doesn't HAVE to win. Rasheth is fine at handling objectives, it's just that Skorne as a faction can't control large circle zones by the end of turn 2.

>>51087303
>Skorne doesn't HAVE to win
-on objectives. That was some Freudian shit right there.

>>51087339
Oh wait I meant by assassination. Damn it's early.

I just found an unopened satyr kit in my desk. Should I make a riphorn, shadowhorn, or gnarlhorn?

>>51087187

Old Witch
- Scrapjack
- Behemoth

Iron Fang Pikemen max
-Officer and Banner

Greylord Ternion

Koldun Lord

Kovnik Andrei Malakov
-Destroyer

Widowmaker Scouts

Widowmaker Marksman

Eiryss1

>>51087425
Magnetize it. Gnarlhorn is trash, but Riphorn and Shadowhorn have their niche.

>>51082093
The game was EXACTLY the same before. Just because your threat range is shorter doesn't mean your opponent is going to magically fuck up.

(Makeda 3) Makeda & the Exalted Court [+24]
- the Exalted Court
- Molik Karn [20]
- Titan Gladiator [14]
- Titan Sentry [15]
- Aradus Soldier [18]
- Agonizer [7]
Paingiver Beast Handlers (max) [7]
Swamp Gobbers Bellows Crew [2]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Paingiver Bloodrunner Master Tormentor [4]
Void Spirit [4]
Void Spirit [4]

So how's my assassination list? Void Spirits threaten to deal massive damage to most casters, the Soldier can drag a heavy away from the shield it's shielding, the Sentry and Agonizer go first to soak up the brunt, and Makeda + Karn get the work done.

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>The Skorne errata could drop any day now

>>51083036
That is how they are supposed to work. In reality you end up with 20 points of support and overprices regular models on top of that so you are heavily outnumbered and losing even one support piece will mean that your other models wont be able to perform on their point level. Fennblades to do as much work as iron fangs or sentinels or any other melee 10 man in a good faction need stone w/ua, chronicler and fell caller . That is. 18-21 points from which only one model can fight. Our heavies need the stone w/ua and maulers (15pts, hits about juggernauts combat capability) animus to be able to survive shooting and maybe, MAYBE kill a heavy jack.

>>51087854
It's supposedly not coming next week and it won't come out today.

>>51088038
I thought "Mid January" was the announced goal, so my guess is somewhere between the 9th and the 20th.

>>51089180
Themes are Tuesday or Thursday, so probably sometime after that.

>>51089256
Is everyone getting a theme? I've been doing a shit job keeping up.

>>51089389
Every faction that doesn't have one already.

>>51089410
That should tide over the Skorne players for a few days. I don't know why PP feels the need to sit on the errata if they have it ready to go though

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I really want a Khador Wilds theme force.

Widowmakers, Kossites, Manhunters and the Old Witch are my favorite models in the game and it's so sad that they all suck, save for the snipars.

>>51089421
Because they want to have developer notes and Q+A ready for the release. Apparently those take multiple weeks to arrange for. But I understand why they are holding it back. The release needs to be handled as carefully as possible to contain the inevitable shitstorm.

>>51089448
Manhunters don't always get their points back, but they can be super fuckin useful every now and then.

I hope we get new info on the new hordes faction soon. I have a small number of Cryx models with a few mercenary solos. To me Hordes seems more interesting though (animus especially) and I'd like to see what this fancy new faction is.
If i were to grab a few mercenary models would i be able to have a lot of crossover between Mercenaries and Cryx in the models i use?

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>>51089493
They aren't necessarily bad, they're just so much worse than Eliminators and cost almost the same.

If Manhunters were 3 points, they would be amazing.

>>51087303
Maybe something changed (is there a turn limit) but why do you have to control the zone by turn 2? Your opponent just can't control the zone. If you're not playing to scenario you can just hold off the opponent.

>>51087695
I don't play Skorne so I'm just going to ask questions and see if you have the answers for it
Also 75 points?

How do you deal with an Infantry screen that protects a heavy hitting second line? Khador and PoM come to mind.

How do you deal with a counter assassination list? Think Ret quick hard hitting units and solos, what if your Void Spirit's get ganked early?

How do you handle infantry swarms that are going to play the objective? Vindy, Irusk, Kreoss, Sytixas lists from cryx?

>>51089551
His problem is that he can't threaten the entire zone bottom of 1. This takes a lot of scenario pressure off the opponent.

>>51089448
Are kossites still shit?
Also
>Old witch
>Ever bad
SUKA

>>51089661
I probably sound pretty stupid, but if I go back and look at his example here >>51076603 again, the distances he can go seem to be what you get with SPD 4+buffs or SPD 5 heavy jacks/beasts, which are most of them.
So who or how can you actually threaten whole zones bottom of 1? Maybe with stuff like Telekinesis and shooting, but straight melee jacks/beasts with +2 will always have trouble getting there (especially when there's some terrain)

>>51089720
They are actually a lot better than before, but unfortunately really bad in this meta.

7 Points for a unit of 5 that threatens a 12.5" charge or 5 pow 10 shots at 19" from any of the side table edges is super neat. You can hold them back until very late too, just to block (or optimally score) a flag/zone. Squishy support solos/units hate them (you can run-engage a menoth choir 15" away from either table edge for example)

The also gained prowl, AD and one point of ARM and DEF.

If this game was a little more like mk2, they would be really cool. But sadly, they hardly ever find something to annoy between all the warbeasts and jacks.

>>51089661
>>51089725
Just Toe the Zone bottom of turn 1 with a shitty unit that the opponent has to to clear to control it and counter charge with your big hitters.

>>51087987

>Buffable pow 16 initials only let you MAYBE kill a heavy jack

You skorne and Troll players keep saying this, I'll just keep playing thornfall and crushing heavies with my 'no base POW over 16 beasts available at all' and laughing at you.

Why is the new battle college so pessimistic? Everything that used to be described as high P+S is now medium amlnd what was medium is low, despite the values themselves not changing. Very high arm and boxes went to just high as well etc.

>>51091299
Battle dialed war hog deals on average more damage to a heavy than mauler who was forced for rage

>>51086989
Dervish gets the same number of attacks as a Crusader, and the one you buy extra of is +5 POW.

I've played both, and while I don't think Dervishes are *bad* with Amon, I prefer doing Crusader chassis jacks (8 Crusaders or 5 Crusaders + 2 Templars) because then *everything* hits like a truck *and* is ARM 19+ with 32 boxes. Having Dervishes exposes a weakness because they're easier to kill than Crusaders.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

>>51092037
I do 5 Crusaders and 3 Castigators, for a little anti-infantry and I like them. Amon is pretty much the only one that makes them work.

>>51089632
>How do you deal with an Infantry screen
Makeda3 can surf on infantry, then a beast of hers (Karn) can surf on infantry too.
>How do you deal with a counter assassination list?
My caster is pseudo 15/22.
>How do you handle infantry swarms
See my first point, Makeda3 can surf.

What is the tankiest faction in hordes?

>>51089725
>So who or how can you actually threaten whole zones bottom of 1?
You play Amon, friend. With Mobility, a SPD4 jack with RNG2 can threaten the entire zone bottom of turn 1 going 1st. There's a reason why Mobility is considered one of the strongest spells in the game.

>Go to SPD6 with Mobility, run 12", you're 1" into the zone
>Next turn with Mobility you have an 11" threat range, letting you reach right to the back edge of the zone

>>51093603
Circle. Don't be fooled by these plebs who think ARM is how you tank hits. I've had an enraged Molik Karn and Gladiator fail to kill a single Warpwolf. 14 is a VERY relevant number of DEF oh a heavy.

>>51093610
But that's one Warcaster. Apart from him, there's Vyros1 and Asphyxious3 with Mobility. That's 3 casters where I have to bait or sacrifice some units into it (like said >>51090036).
I don't really see the problem here. Especially that when the Amon player does this, his choir has to run at least one turn, which is also nice.

Is Karchev still viable after nerfs

>>51093908
Harkevich has Mobility too. Note how all factions with Mobility are Warmachine. But oh wait, Xerxis2 is getting Mobility! You know, Xerxis2, that currently-bottom-of-the-barrel caster with a fury stat of 5 on a colossal sized base so he's impossible to screen from gunlines?

>his choir has to run at least one turn
So you just do it turn 1 because your opponent can't really do anything to your heavies on that turn anyway if you're going first. Compare this to the support in other factions. Beast Handlers do nothing on turn 1 but cost more points, Krielstones do nothing on turn 1 but cost more points. All of the autoinclude support does nothing on turn 1, so the Choir doing nothing when they don't need to do anything doesn't mean you're somehow winning. Or you could just have the Choir off to the side of deployment and walk up first, sing, then the jacks run past them. Next turn they can still walk up and sing.

>>51094029
Yeah.

>>51094139
Xerxes 2 has mobility right now, he's getting the hordes version of Escort instead, so upkeepable and +2 arm, krea's aura going back to +2 def/arm vs shooting, he's going to be a tough one to crack

>>51094029
Of course. Mad Dogs wasn't his only viable build. And the feat nerf hurt, but it's not like the boosted attack rolls were a cornerstone of his strategy. Just take shit with decent MAT instead of spamming shitty jacks and you're fine. He still does everything else he used to do.

>>51089536

Honestly, a lot of solos could loose a point. Armies are so strapped for points outside of warjacks that we loose out on a whole lot of smaller combat and support solos that feel expensive for that they do.

>>51094567

I am so looking forward to this by the way.

X2 was so so close to being really good at the end of MK2 and the MK3 switch over bumped him just out of that with a lot of small changes like the Krea, Mobility and Molik Karn nerfs. Him having "Mobility" really feels like it shifts a lot of that back and makes him pretty cool again.

Just hoping the changes to OTHER stuff in Skorne is enough to make up the slack.

Any spoiler for the new PoM Theme Forces?

I saw things that were deleted afterward but...

>>51091960

>than a mauler who was forced for rage

If you are forcing your own mauler to rage itself you are a bad player.

Like, that's just the end of it. That's the whole thing.

>>51094139

Carver has Mobility. Carver isn't warmachine. Carver's heavies are even spd 5 base, and road hogs can force for +2 on their own.

>>51095993
Now this is hogracing!

>Circle players say they have some bad warlocks and units
>Look at Mohsar
>Fury 8
>Some decent spells
>Feat that shits all over warnouns
>Look at the Druids of Orboros unit
>A FUCKING KNOCKDOWN SPELL ON EACH ONE OF THEM
My god some people don't know how good they've got it. A fury 8 caster with no feat, spells, or abilities, would STILL be good purely because they could handle a big battlegroup at big distances. Whose stupid idea was it to tie control range, leaching, and magic ability to a single stat?

What if every warcaster/warlock would have 12 control range and focus/fury wouldn't matter?

>>51096390
Focus and Fury both have drawbacks and positives we've had this discussion before.

>>51096508
Kinda fucks over casters with debuff feats.

Going to be in Tucson for three nights. Are there any stores around there that do WMH? Interested in stopping by even if there's no gaming going on to check out the area since I might be moving there.

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Does any body know any more about the new faction for Hordes?

If they are generally Lovecraft themed then PP can just take all of my money.

>>51097227
The best guess is something to do with Grymkin, the Iron Kingdoms fair folk equivalent.

>>51097227
Is that a spider in a trenchcoat?

>>51097227
All I know is that they should stop their angsty teen stage and spoil a bit about the actual faction.

>>51097602
Well it has tentacles for hands there i assume.

>>51097618
Agreed, this blue balling is getting bad.

>>51097227
That looks like a spooky Gunmage! Finally! Hordes will have their own Cygnar! More gunlines!

Are Brennos and Morvahna2 worth buying?

>>51070293
don't you have sun where you live?

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>>51096888
>Meanwhile in Skorne, 10" debuff feats

>>51097227
Holt, what did they do to you?

So if Kryssa is ass and I want to give my friend a sporting chance at having a fun battlebox game, who should I give him instead?

>>51098991

Vayl 1 is good

>>51095941
It's like fury 5 who really gives a fuck it's still overkill.

>>51097924
to be fair, Morghoul is pretty damn safe during the debuff feat.

His stats are high enough that you want/need boosts but his feat prevent that.

>>51097227
That has to be a Gentleman Stranger.

They're a kind of Grymkin that disguise themselves as nobles, then attempt to commit murder against nobility, especially those that boast or brag of some achievement.

>>51101106
As someone that doesn't know about Grymkins, what do they do that's different?

>>51101367
In the Grym Kin gdoms of Iron, there is only steam

>>51101367
Nothing really special. They've got insane bonuses to illusion magic based around disguises(constant disguise self, +20 to maintain it, pretty high CR to see through it). Beyond that, they come with charmed staff that will fight to the death for them, a general slew of at will charm and illusion magic, spider climb and jump. They had one other ability which lets them recreate the spell crushing despair, flavored as their mocking laughter.

They were more a plotline driven villain though, rather than a monster to defeat. So it's super open ended what they would be capable of. But the little bit they have in there is straight up their methods.

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>>51101106
If it's a Gentleman Stranger, then PP's really done a massive overhaul in the design. This is the original version.

>>51101367
Grymking are basically the Iron Kingdoms version of Fair Folk. They come in all forms and all seem to target mortals in some specific way. Gremlins that get into and sabotage machines, Boatmen that pose as ferrymen then drown those that get aboard, the Gentleman Stranger that integrates itself into polite society and then murders nobles in ironic ways, Rusalka who use illusions to lure men into bogs and swamps and drown, etc.

>>51101500
It wouldn't be the first time they've done a big overhaul, go look at the original version of the Mammoth.

And honestly the monster is such a non-entity in terms of anything concrete beyond it's methods, and the poem is pretty much exactly what they do.

>>51101500
>>51101476
So probably a faction with a lot of weird tricks

>>51101558
Who knows, to be honest. They refuse to tell us anything at all about the faction.

They've yet to tell us why Grymkin would bother to organize or fight.

>>51101581
Because they need more models to sell

>>51101581
Leylines and fairies go hand in hand. They know things are getting bad after Blighterghast injected lizard AIDS into the lines. Maybe they want those dragons fucking gone and wouldn't mind clearing out some human filth while they're at it

>>51102043
I don't really think so. Leylines are tied pretty heavily to the Wurm and to Dhunania, which Grymkin have nothing to do with. Indeed, the IK fey seem more interested in simply being murderous dicks, given that basically every example we have of them is just that.

>>51101683
I don't mind a new faction, and I don't think many people do. It's just their choice of topic that seems to be the issue.

The more jaded answer would be that they choose the Grymkin so Soles could jack off about horse skulls some more.

>>51101683
What confuses me is that there's 3 factions ATM that don't get much support at all, Mercs, Minions, and CoC (and Cephalyx, maybe, which shouldn't have been a Merc add on), which I think is because PP has their resources stretched too thin balancing 9 other main factions.

Adding yet ANOTHER faction makes me think its probably going to be a limited release like CoC, and if that's the case, why release another faction at all?

>>51070147
I like that pig, the blue lights are amazing.
Are pigs viable as a faction yet?

>>51102735
Yes they are, the addition of Primal to the faction really helps them and Brigands are pretty great as well.

>>51102277
I wouldn't really say Mercs don't get support. I think it's more than people think of Mercs as a bunch of distinct factions, instead of one big faction.

If you look at it as one big faction, they've gotten a shitload of support.

They've also said the new faction is a full release, and not limited faction.

>>51102770
Sweet.
>>51102043
It seems plausible, how we know than Grymkin aren't sons of Dhunia and the wyrm?

>tfw PP will never support Cephalyx ever again
>tfw no chance of getting a Cephalyx Colossal

why even slave?

>>51103313
>no chance of getting a Cephalyx Colossal
Even Minions still have nothing and they have been a faction for way longer. It's pretty dumb that CoC has 2 Colossals but Minions have nothing.

>>51103313

Anon you'll get one. Right before the heat death of the universe.

>>51103313
They're supposed to get a third caster

>>51103356
CoC is the faction that invented all the shit. Why wouldn't they have a Colossal?

And beyond that, the other factions are welcome to the Conflux, it's dogshit, a middle finger from PP.

>>51103378
I am okay with them having one but having two and pigs/gators having none is pretty dumb

>>51103422

Yeah where the fuck is my mega hog? Or super croc?

>>51103378
Casual who doesn't play multi caster 3x3 team games detected.
Just need to run a couple next to zapdos and n3mo.

>>51103356

I've been playing minions almost exclusively since carver was released and I don't want a fucking colossal.

>>51103559
I have been playing them a lot as well and I would like one just to add more options to the faction.

>>51103497
They're still dogshit at that point, because Nemo3 can bring something that does the same thing for cheaper.

>>51103587
You know who got a lot of options this edition?

Skorne.

>>51103689
#DesignSpace

>>51101683

It's my biggest beef with those PP assholes, get your fucking production in order shit munchers, so players aren't waiting for models that they had the rules to for over a year. Great, release a new faction; I'm sure the players will be thrilled in 2020 when everything is finally released for it.

And they should stop being fucking drooling mongloid retards that balance shit with theme forces in mind and then don't release the fucking themes.

>>51103834
>And they should stop being fucking drooling mongloid retards that balance shit with theme forces in mind and then don't release the fucking themes
I agree, if the game is balanced around Themes then all of the themes should have been out day 1

>>51103834
>
And they should stop being fucking drooling mongloid retards that balance shit with theme forces in mind and then don't release the fucking themes

I can't defend this.

>>51103844
>>51104047

I get the idea that they want to sell rules books but, the book system seems to be fucking terrible currently. I feel like it's something that just needs to go away as a business model. I like Infinity who releases new stuff piecemeal and simply puts out books for large scale expansions that usually revolve around fluff. Yeah they have flaws but I like that system way better.

They have an app designed to replace all the cards and books already, I don't know why they don't just release stuff digitally. They might loose some money on books but cmon, they make most of their dosh off of models.

PP really should give up on book releases if they are planning on moving fluff strictly to their novels and have a rules app. It's just a big ass waste. They should just make a browser based version of WarRoom to round out peoples access to the rules. Even if they make it cost money.

>>51104187
Book releases in the game have never related to model releases. Honestly, people thinking it does or should has caused more than a few issues in the past.

>>51103834
They should stop being drooling mongoloids by firing Soles and reemploying DC.

How am I expected to win as trollbloods against warmachine if I have to buff a model with multiple sources for it to TRADE against CHEAPER models that are NOT buffed. Even skorne invests less in support and can deal with its loss.

>>51105426
You can't trade at all. You just go for the gooey center or take low hanging fruit.

PP has basically fucked up trolls beyond repair at this point.

>>51105426
Use their deadly light beasts and ranged infantry

>>51105450
I thought that trolls were the attrition faction.

>>51105480
>ranged infantry
Sluggers are actually good now and Fire Eaters have always been amazing. So I think we can stop saying that ironically.

>>51105756
Sluggers are plain bad and fire eaters cant be considered truly ranged as they cant form a gunline and are charging in 9 out of 10 times.

>>51105756
If there is something that could make troll ranged infantry good it would be a scattergunner solo that allows them to choose between using their spray or a big bonus to pow. Call it scattergunner sharpshooter or whatever.

>>51105857
>scattergunner sharpshooter
Or in other words "shotgun sniper"?

>>51105889
The quote on scattergunner card implies that it can be accurate in the right hands.

I hope we get those protectorate spoilers later today. I'm dyin over here

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>>51105889
>>51105909

>>51100501
Too bad they nerfed his stats. His main problem in Mk2 was knockdown effects negating his DEF17. So for Mk3 they gave him Steady. Then they dropped his DEF for another point of ARM anyway. Not like it matters because Side Step is strictly worse than Overtake on a model with 14 attacks.

>>51077846
Many people misunderstand the Cryx being shit part, they aren't that bad from competitive perspective Coven, Skarre1, Denegra1, Gaspy3 are kinda decent, it's just that Cryx is now fucking boring and uninteresting to play with narrow field of competitive choices and very little synergy.

>>51107953
Competitively Cryx is entirely limited to Coven plus something else, and on the scale of faction-carrying power casters Coven is mediocre and only propped up by the fact that the meta they answer is the hot stuff right now.

>>51105909
quotes on cards? That's Mk2 talk

>>51108290
Can't argue with that, you are correct.

>>51105426
This isn't quite the case. An unbuffed Mauler will thrash most other unbuffed heavies in the game pretty reliably. Once you slap any kind of buff on it it's trashing typical heavies with ease and is even taking down Khador arm/box jacks with decent reliability.

Furthermore, most other jacls will struggle to kill the same targets unbuffed due to lower volume of attacks. The real problem is in Trolls is overcosyed heavies AND lack of variety in heavies. We have not gotten a non character heavy since Mark 2 first came out. I'm really not sure why the Blitzer costs MORE than a Mauler. Honestly, the Blitzer and Earthborn should both be 13 points and the Earthborn should get P&S 16. Or, they could leave the Earthborn costed as is but give him back adaptation and FURY 5. Furthermore, I think everyone of our character heavies needs to be at LEAST tweaked in some way.

The gelding of Trolls by stripping FURY 5 hand completely fucking up the entire faction by destroying the way animi function was criminal.

>>51108619
Man, I'd play a lot of Earthborn if it cost 13.

>>51108619
What's wrong with Trollblood animi?

>>51108714
There are two good ones and a whole boatload of crap ones.

Which is one good animus more than Skorne.

>>51108763
Another troll anon here. You're not wrong, but I count 3: Rage, Rush, and Rok has Primal, which is also pretty good.

>>51108763
>>51108807
Alright, but he wrote something about how they changed the way animi function and that fucked Trolls over. What happened there?

I'm very, very new to Hordes in case you haven't noticed.

>>51108714
Kind of everything. Animi were a central source of synergy and buffstacking for the faction in MK2. Without exception every animus was changed to a worse version of itself or made less effective.

Trollbloods can't buff warrior units/solos with animi anymore. Rage was made warbeast only, Flaming Fists range self and Acidic Touch removed from the game. Trollbloods still suffer from anemic gun ranges of 8-10". Only Two models received a 2" buff to range and one (maybe 2, I can't remember) LOST 2" of range and Farstrike is now only range self.

They removed the ability to buff armor with an animus as well as nerfing the the anchor piece of the old beast brick into the ground (Mulg) removing the wall (so even with the old EBDT animus an armor buff would be harder to access) and making the cost of support increase drastically. The stone used to cost the same as a cheap light, now more expensive than our most expensive (and overcosted) light and the same price or more than other factions heavies.

Basically, by making all animi range self, functionally useless, or limiting the available targets for them they destroyed one of Trollblood's defining features of synergy and buffstacking. It used to be the any model, with the right buffs, could become a threat until the end of the game. Not anymore. They destroyed the classic beast brick and the high armor multiwound heavy infantry list (MMM) as well and kind of left Trollbloods with none of their signature style in tact. They weren't even ever a top faction anyway. Middle of the pack throughout most of MK2 with a few spots in the limelight. No idea why they caught in the crossfire so bad.

>>51108834
Most of the animi in mk2 that could target other models were changed to self only (such as Far Strike, Flaming Fists, etc.)

>>51108807
I'd argue primal is kind of a crap animus in trolls. Other factions make great use of it, but I'd almost always rather have rage, especially when it comes on a 15 point beast rather than a 21 point beast. Primal has it's place and isn't worthless, though. I'd like it a lot more if Trolls had decent cheap heavies to piece trade with.

>>51108834
I don't mean a fundamental change to the way animus works as a game mechanic, but more PP's stated design philosophy behind HOW factions should use and receive animi. They said in some insider going into MK3 that they wanted to give each faction far fewer animi, repeating the same ones throughout the faction on multiple warbeasts.

This design philosophy and the changes to the rules of individual animi hurt trolls a lot.

>>51108882
>>51108895
I see, that does suck a lot. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm asking because a few friends and I are starting to get into Warmahordes, and a buddy considers going Trolls. Are they just a really bad pick or can there still decent matches be had, assuming roughly equal skill level?

>>51108807
I forgot about Primal.

>>51108834
In the edition change a lot of animi got stricter target restrictions. Like being unable to target warriors or outright going to target:self. Some animi (like Locker) also got removed or massively nerfed (Trainwreck, oh I'm sorry it's called fucking Puissance now; didn't think they could nerf the name harder than the animus).

>>51108882
Besides rush. Rush is the same. And I think Dozer's animus stayed the same too.

>>51108946
It's my opinion that most of Hordes, besides Circle, is seriously gimped in comparison to every Warmachine faction. As a Hordes player it sure looks like the Warmachine factions were edited with care for MK3 while Hordes were done lazy and sloppy. Even Cryx, despite their huge nerfs, had such a long way to fall they really are not in that poor shape.

Furthermore, I think at low levels of play for beginners this kind of balance indiscrepancy is not that noticeable. Maybe after 6 months to a year of regular play and practice you will start to notice stuff, but unless you're getting into this game specifically with the play in competitive events I would not worry about faction strength too much. The fact of the matter is that most factions are still pretty well balanced in casual sense. Even the worst offenders won't give you games like some matchups in 40k for example.

For a lot of us, though, who have been playing this game for 5, 6, 7 years it's hard not to be salty at the way some things have changed.

>>51107953
>>51108290
That's almost every faction in MK3.
Minions are Rask+X
Circle (pre nerf, not sure what it's going to be now) are Wurmwood or Una2+X
Skorne are Rasheth+X (maybe will change after the errata)
etc.
Pretty much every faction has been locked into a few options in the competitive arena because they have one or two pretty good/great options and then you take a list to cover the weakness and there you go.
Most of the game feels "solved" now so it makes list creation very stale (with usually only 2-3 variations on a "base") and as a result, the game itself becomes more predictable.
I really wanted the errata to make some solos and units cheaper (or make some units better to be a consideration) so that list variety will come back but right now there are only a few good options per faction and the whole competitive meta is built around that.

>>51105835

>10 points for 10 RAT 6 POW 12 Range 10 shots on models with boxes is bad

This is how spoiled troll players are. I would much rather have sluggers than Brigands.

>>51110516
>This is how spoiled troll players are
It's really just how stupid people parroting everything some top US players say are.

>>51110516
They only got one box and low def and speed with range 10, which means that the opponent will get to shoot first and your 10 shots tourn into 2.

>>51110516
Sluggers are decent now with RAT 6 and points decrease. Despite anon saying stuff I think you will start to see them more.

Also they are POW 13 not 12 and they only have a single box now, not multiple. They problem they face is having 12/14 victim stats, low range and low speed with no defensive tech. The unit is only 5 bodies so for every one you lose a lot of punch from the unit. Very easy for enemy ranged units to render them useless.

Furthermore they get D3 shots, not 2 each. People dislike them for their unreliability. Sometimes they will punch above their weightclass, sometimes they will drastically underperform for their points.

I really think 10 points is a great price, though. Grim2 and Gunnbjorn can do good stuff for them and if Jarl wasn't so shit I think Tac Supremacy has potential on them as well.

>>51110516
One of the above troll anons here -- I really like Sluggers at RAT 6 10 pts.

I also don't subscribe to the forum groupthink, so make of that what you will.

>>51110516
Also Sluggers are POW 13 :)

>>51110834

Whoops my bad on the boxes/pow.

Would still take them over brigands 100% of the time.

Spd 5 and 12/14 just puts them on par with brigands, which also have rng 10 and can't dig in and don't have snipe in faction and cost more and people like to pretend are the best infantry in hordes despite not fielding them while they work for everyone in hordes.

>>51076958
>>51082093
I've seen this claimed a lot about premeasuring, but not on the table. The interactions between all the different threats and possible placement is still very complicated even without the random element.

And with regard to simple stuff like "Is X in charge range of Y" or "Can X move and get LOS to Y", it's exactly the same as it always was. Mk2 Steamroller gave you fixed reference points all over the table at known distances. Anybody with even a rudimentary grasp of geometry was already "premeasuring" in Mk2. All that legalizing premeasuring in Mk3 actually changed was to level the playing field for the people that DON'T have a rudimentary grasp of geometry.

>>51097227
>>51097439
So... that's pretty interesting, but didn't they flat-out say that the new faction wasn't going to be Grymkin or Infernals. Like.. it was supposed to be "something new".

It doesn't really jive with the fluff anyway. Grymkin don't seem like they work together. They're just fairytale monsters. They feel like the basis for a Malifaux faction maybe, not a nation-scale entity that would be fielding whole armies.

I could absolutely see Grymkin showing up as Minions models, or solos in a force that could conceivably recruit them. Maybe that's what this is.

>>51111299
Grymkin have already shown up as Minions models -- the Gremlin Swarm is a Minions Grymkin solo.

>>51103834
>"stop being fucking drooling mongloid retards"
I feel like there really needs to be a word for the thing where a poster makes spelling errors while deriding someone's intelligence. There's just something magical about it that I wish I could sum up in two or three syllables.

>>51111299
No, most of the preview stuff they've shown relates back to the old MMs(as does most of the models in the game, in fact, outside of warcasters), and a huge amount of them are Grymkin.

>>51111474
I've got it -- "SKREEONK"

Honestly, I think most factions lost a shitload of their unique identity in the transition to Mk3, besides maybe Cygnar.

I mean, hell, Convergence lost one of it's two major playstyles in the switch, which is hilarious.

>>51111567
if you mean recursion, basically everyone that had that lost it.

But you're not wrong, everything is way more homogeneous now..

>>51111640
I do mean recursion, and while everyone lost it, it's not as if CoC has much else to run with.

But yes, it's less that factions got gutted as it is that factions seem to have gotten boring. The irony is that they seemed to be trying to make factions more distinct: PoM getting nearly all the upkeep hate, for example.

>>51111640
>everything is way more homogeneous now..

IE boring as fuck. Game lost its flavor.

Protectorate spoiled! ChainAttack facebook page. No justice for the Exemplars....

hey guys, i am newf to this thing and i would like to know if there is any race that consists of beasts/nature forces in this game?
I really like that theme.
I mean Hordes, that is the fantasy one yes?

>>51112473
I think there's an oval of boros or something that might be close to that description.

>>51112473
Hordes is the side you're looking for, with a focus on bestial magic and drawing power from wild animals.

The factions are:

Trolls: A loose confederation of people who are basically getting shit on by forces far more powerful than them, they combine traditional fighting with their priests controlling giant trolls in battle, with some movement towards modernization(guns and the like)

Circle of Orobous: Think traditional druids, they're trying to keep a balance between nature and progress because if they don't the world will get destroyed.

Skorne: Desert dwellers who have a couple issues related to gods and the afterlife(their afterlife is to suffer for eternity because they have no gods to protect them) They're the most advanced and largest of the Hordes factions, honestly as powerful if not more than even the IK factions, and most of their power comes from warbeasts they capture, torture, and train. If you give a shit about balance, wait on these guys, they're in a major period of being terrible that might or might not change shortly

Legion: Dragons in the IK setting are more akin to abominations than traditional dragons, and Legion is about a dragon who's had his body destroyed, and now works through corrupted elves, ogres, and twisted spawn they create from their own(and others) blood and flesh.

>>51112266
Please post it. Some people don't have facebook.

>>51112699
nice thanks for info anon
>Circle of Orobous: Think traditional druids, they're trying to keep a balance between nature and progress because if they don't the world will get destroyed.
awesome

>>51112982
Circle Orboros

Feora3
Spd8
MAT7
RAT5
Def14
Arm18
CMD9
FOCUS6

Heavy Flame Thrower SP10 ROF1 POW12 Continuous Fire
Apocalypse RNG2 P+S14 Continuous Fire
Mount POW12

27 WJ points
Assault
Cavalry
Reposition 3
Immunity Fire

Flame Trail - When this model advances into base to base contact with an enemy model during its activation that model suffers the continuous fire effect

Feat - Clash of Flames - Feora casts incite without spending focus, additionally while in Feora's Control Area friendly models gain Flame Trail. Lasts 1 round

Spells
Banishing Ward
Fire Step
Incite
Molten Metal
Redline

>>51113185
Eye of Truth
Spd5
Str11
MAT7
RAT6
Def10
Arm19

Gaze of Justice RNG8 ROF1 POW14 Continuous Fire, Magical
Shield RNG1 P+S13 +2 ARM
Holy Wrath RNG2 P+S18 Continuous Fire, Magical, Flame Burst

Immunity Fire
Ashen Veil
Bond [Malekus] - While this model is bonded and in control, Malekus can channel spells through Eye of Truth
Holy Light - While within 5" of this model friendly models ignore spells that add to an enemies armor or defense
Oracular Vision - Spend a focus to prevent damage from an attack

20pts
32 Damage Boxes

File: topfire3.jpg (202KB, 1053x941px) Image search: [Google]

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>>51113292
Menoth Theme 1
Protectorate Casters
Non-Character Warjacks
Flameguard Models/Units
Choir
Reclaimer Solos
Vassal Solos
Wrack Solos

For every 20 points of Flameguard Models/Units gain a Flameguard Command Attachment or 1 small based solo.

Warjacks gain Girded

Up to 1 Daughters of the Flame unit gains Ambush

this time the pic without full on retard

>>51113357
Menoth Theme 2
Protectorate Casters
Non-Character Warjacks
Avatar of Menoth
Vassal Models/Units
Choir
Visigoth Rhoven
Covenant of Menoth
Hierophant Solos
Initiate Durant
Wrack Solos
Protectorate Battle Engines

For every 25 points of Battle Engines and Warjacks add 3 wracks or 1 other solo to the army free of cost

Solos and Choir gain Reposition 3

Friendly Models can begin game with upkeep spells in play.

>>51113387
>>51113357
>>51113292
>>51113185
Thanks!

>ARM18 heavies can get shot off the board
What a time to be alive.

>>51113185
Looking at the whole package of Feora3 and I have to say I'm neither surprised nor impressed. Apparently this time they used Flame Trail to show how much Feora just LOVES FIRE, wheeowhee.
Redline feels kinda awkward here, but is a nice spell nonetheless. With just 6 focus she will probably want to cast t1 to upkeep it, but then the jack definitely takes damage, so better keep a mechanik handy.
The feat is okay I guess.
The real meat is probably Fire Step on a SPD 8 Cavalry Caster, which can get around quite a few corners.

>>51113292
Looks really nice, however at 20 pts can it really compete against something like Scourge of Heresy, if you want to pick up a high quality jack? Built in Oracular Vision is really great though - you won't take this guy with Sevvy2 however.
For Malekus himself he feels kinda meh, RNG 8 on his powerful cannon hurts a bit. The Reckoners' gun is also POW 14, got 4 more range and is 4 pts cheaper. Although the gun has coincidentally the same range as scourge and it's an arcnode

>>51113357
Okay, so Flameguard. Since Idrians and Exemplar Knights are our go to heavy hitter infantry, this theme looks kinda weak for infantry centric lists.
However, lists that mostly use Flamebringers could get some value out of this, plus one unit of Daughters for that sweet, sweet ambush. Girded can also keep Flamebringers/Daughters alive, so blast damage doesn't scatter them off the table immediately.
Mostly there for the flavour dough.

>>51113387
Now this, well, since we just talked about Amon in this thread, well it looks like the Creator himself stepped in and made it for him. His Jacks start with mobility and he gets either some vassals, wracks or maybe a Nicia for free. The Reposition on the Choir makes much easier to maneuver.
However, outside of Amon, I don't really see another caster that can get a lot out of this, since even Durst or Durant2 often bring some infantry

>>51113933
Mobility isn't an upkeep, anon. He'd start with Synergy and Fortify up.

(He's casting Mobility T1 anyway)

>>51114014
Whoops, still a neat little upside for him.

>>51113933
All casters that wanted lots of jacks has a good shot at utilising theme. Menoth doesn't play spells like Battlelust that require you to bring infantry.
Sev2, Durst, Durant2, Feora2 can all be made better than they are currently with this theme.

In fact it can theoretically benefit them more than Amon. Amon gets 1 garbage jack worth of points from this theme when he already has a sea of garbage jacks. Meanwhile something like Sev2 or Durant going from 4 quality heavies + unit (which is meh) to 6 (which is jack spam territory) and not requiring to cut support for it is a big deal.

Also note that Amon doesn't have a character to bring in theme.

>>51113933
The theme doesn't allow Nicia.

>>51111043
>can't dig in
Brigands do have Dig In but if they use it it means that they will not get to shoot anything before it's in their face.

Wow trolls really got fucked over in their command book compared to menoth.

Are we the worst faction now?

>>51115753
Yes it is, all your beasts are overcosted and underperform, your animi are garbage and your whole infantry has victim stats, can't be delivered and can't deal wither either ARM or DEF.
There's your (You)

>>51115376
Nicia is a Flameguard solo

Larry Correia, author of the Malcontents stated that the final book "Into the Dark" won't be releasing in 2017

>>51115876
The dude from >>51113933 here, I actually was retarded and mentioned Nicia in the Jack Theme, not the Flameguard one, so that anonymous dude is right

>>51115886
dang

>>51113387
Woo what about this

Protectorate of Menoth - Amon Theme

Theme: No Theme Selected
84 / 84 Army


High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza - WJ: +29
- Hierophant - PC: 3
- Castigator - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
- Castigator - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 12)
- Castigator - PC: 12 (Battlegroup Points Used: 5)
- Crusader - PC: 10
- Crusader - PC: 10
- Crusader - PC: 10
- Crusader - PC: 10
- Vanquisher - PC: 17

Vassal of Menoth - PC: 3
Vassal of Menoth - PC: 3
Wrack - PC: 1
Wrack - PC: 1
Vassal Mechanik - PC: 1

Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4
Choir of Menoth - Leader & 3 Grunts: 4

>>51113357
I'll get this in Conflict Chamber soon, but I'm out of town at the moment and my internet access blows.

>>51117250
why not dervishes?

>>51115409

That is exactly what I meant by 'can't dig in'

when do the cryx themes come out? I want to know when I can officially quit the game.

ONE SIMPLE CHANGE TO EACH SHIT SKORNE CASTER TO MAKE THEM WORTHWHILE

>Naaresh
Blood tokens last a round from when Naaresh was last hit.

>Hexeris1
Swap Obliteration for Hellmouth.

>Mordikaar
Feat is now +4DEF and Poltergeist

>Xerxis2
Swap Ignite for Fury.

>Zaal1/2
Make infantry worthwhile.

>Makeda1
Revert Fate Walker.

Honestly I'd be happy with these single changes. The Zaals are about to become a lot better with Swordsmen going to MAT7 with minifeat WM, but Naaresh takes too much of your support to remain pumped up, Hexeris1 lacks a single spell worth casting, Xerxis2 is just meh, and Makeda1 can't protect herself while still providing Carnage.

>>51117671
I only own one, and generally I'd rather have heavies. More boxes and more armor for people to deal with.

>>51117727
Ah sorry, I misunderstood you

I never thought I'd get into this game, but found Grind for like $8 in a local discount store. Can I start playing Warmachine with just the models in the box?

>>51113387
>battle engines
>no infantry to use gate of judgement with
I don't even understand how this one is thematic

>>51113357
I think feora 2 might like this one. Her jacks do most of the heavy hitting, so taking a bunch of flameguard isn't such a liability.

Although if you go all in on flameguard stuff (tfg+ua, daughters and flamebringers) you get Pyrrus and Nicia for free, which also seems pretty nice.

>>51118335

>Naaresh
I actually just want to give him the Spell Carnivore. That way he can get back health he lost to get tokens by having a unit (probably Nihilators) kill enemy infantry.

>Hexxy1
Never thought of that, sounds interesting. Still, I think Hexxy1's biggest problem is always his feat that SEEMS good but is actually horrible.

>Mordikaar
I would actually keep him the same except make Revive cost 2 OR let Revived models make actions again (and maybe give Haley3 a different revive spell).

>Xerxis2
Actually seems fine to me once they give him Battle Host. Only change I would say is maybe give him "Attuned Spirit (Skorne)" so he can cast 1 free Animus a turn again.

I actually don't think either of the Zaals are actually bad. Like, you said, Skorne infantry needs some work but they themselves are fine. If the Swordsmen changes they revealed comes through, then it might be enough.

>Makeda1
New feat really. If I had to make 1 small change, it would be to let models revived from her feat move and attack like normal. If not, I would change her feat to give her some kind of large dmg buff for infantry.

A lot of the other warlocks require way deeper changes.

>>51118924
I don't think Feora2 works that well with the Temple Flameguard or Cleanser.
Sure, her jacks do most of the work, but she does nothing for infantry. TFG is just so much better with a Def or Arm buff and cleansers want some help with their to hit.
You'd rather want a (min) unit Flamebringers and a unit Daughters (ambush on them just seems so dirty) and grab Nicia. This gives you strong anti infantry and okay-ish contesting and control units

>>51119153

>Never thought of that, sounds interesting. Still, I think Hexxy1's biggest problem is always his feat that SEEMS good but is actually horrible.

Hexxy1's biggest problem was that he doesn't actually do anything coherently outside feat turn, and they didn't have the balls to make him support his feat to catastrophic effect.

>I would actually keep (Mordikaar) the same except make Revive cost 2 OR let Revived models make actions again (and maybe give Haley3 a different revive spell).

I think that's a unit nerf thing. Mordikaar worked fine and would work fine if his feat managed to get the same net effect. Fuck, I'd make it +5 DEF and Poltergeist, and shrug it off if anybody complained. Feats should mean something, that one should mean that when something attacks a Skorne model on that turn, it's probably going to miss.

>I actually don't think either of the Zaals are actually bad. Like, you said, Skorne infantry needs some work but they themselves are fine. If the Swordsmen changes they revealed comes through, then it might be enough.

Pretty much, but it's still an issue. Zaal2 needs Skorne constructs to do more than shuffle towards the midpoint of the table and almost get there when the enemy Alpha hits. Zaal1 needs skorne models to be recosted so that model-for-model attrition against armor-spam doesn't mean Skorne autoloses.

>>51118924
>I think feora 2 might like this one. Her jacks do most of the heavy hitting, so taking a bunch of flameguard isn't such a liability.

I've been running Feora2 with a pair of redeemers, 2 units of daughters, Nicia, Choir, and 5 Crusaders.

Between a pair of Redeemers laying down flaming templates and Daughters bouncing everywhere, infantry lists are not an issue.

And 5x cheap speed 6 jacks trade well with heavy-centric lists or can at least eat a charge while the Redeemers and Daughters put pressure on enemy heavy support and casters.

I played it into Horgle2. Opponent thought he was safe from Feora since his whole army was immune to fire. He was wrong.

>>51118924
>>battle engines
>>no infantry to use gate of judgement with
>I don't even understand how this one is thematic

Really, the Vessel can only use that ability once per turn so you don't get nearly as much out of infanty spam with it as you'd think. It's much more useful as a gun platform.

It works well with Rhoven, as his guards become two shield guards that can also turn into kamikaze missiles.

>>51117250
Fucking disgusting. Thanks a fucking lot PP.

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>>51113357

>Feora3 feat

>>51121244

But that 16" threat range with impact attacks, tho.

>>51118749
whats in the box? I looked it up on Amazon, and it looks to give you enough Warjacks to get going, but I didn't see any equivalent to a warcaster, so you'd probably need to pick one up or proxy one. Each faction has a few free ones on the app if you need rules.

>>51118749
No, Grind doesn't have the right weapons for the jacks, it was more of a sports game. However, $8 is a steal. If you buy a few multikits for Cygnar or Khador you can use the extra arms to make more jacks. Otherwise you also need a warcaster or two.

>>51118335

>Blood tokens last a round from when Naaresh was last hit.

Seems unnecessary. I understand why you want this, but it just muddles up a rule that works perfectly fine. The rule is definitely more designed for you to trigger it yourself, rather than waiting for your opponent to do it or "refresh" it. Honestly Naaresh's real problem is that his spell list is too lackluster and his abilities don't make up for it. Bleed is a shitty nuke, and Blur is a mediocre spell to begin with and is just completely dead with Skorne's current roster.

>Hexeris1
>Swap Obliteration for Hellmouth.

I don't care enough about Hexy1 to really argue, but trading a overcosted nuke for a slightly better overcosted nuke doesn't seem to fix anything. I feel like swapping Influence for Chasten would be much better. His feat needs to be completely redone, it was somewhat good when everyone was taking 20+ infantry models and in Mk3 it's just garbage.

>Mordikaar
>Feat is now +4DEF and Poltergeist

Seems fine. I can't believe Legion got a similar feat when they have Angels. I think they also really need to look at Revive, it's just not worth to cast at all as it is.

>>Xerxis2
>Swap Ignite for Fury.

What they're doing with swapping Mobility for Battle Host is better than fine. Xerxis2 has no issues offensively, the problem was he lost the Krea animus and Mobility became Cost 3. Sitting on a battle engine at DEF 13 ARM 19 while camping only 1 fury while just doing the very basic things your warlock could do was very very bad. Now he gets to romp around at ARM 21(23 vs ranged), consistently camping 3 every turn. He's going to be a monster when he gets Battle Host.

>Zaal1/2
>Make infantry worthwhile.

Agreed. Immortals/Ancestral Guardians should have been kept more or less the same, Zaal2's feat should have been left alone as now it's a super shitty version of Stryker1's feat.

>>Makeda1
>Revert Fate Walker

Give her back Savagery too, while we're at it.

>>51121244

A control wide +2+2 isn't half bad. When she can do it every turn and then can pick a turn to do it AND juggle Redline, it's really not as bad as you think. Feora hurts.

Hell, if anything it makes her a scary Mat 9 P+S 16 missile who can still buy 6 attacks if she needs to and it works on fucking everything. Any of our Cav or ranged models are going to love her.

She may not be an instant classic, meta breaker but she is pretty interesting.

>>51121959
>A control wide +2+2 isn't half bad.

Incite is Command.

I think she's pretty decent, B or B+ caster for sure. Her spells and abilities are good, the feat is pretty bad. It's essentially just 4 extra focus and Flametrail. It's good for having her camp a lot and making sure she doesn't just die the next turn, but it's a pretty bad for a feat.

>>51121558

Honestly, without the ability to hot-swap spells, Savagery isn't all that cool anyway.

Makeda1 needs a feat change for sure but, I also think if she got a dmg buff it would be sweet. Her feat really holds her down though. Even if they attached some kind of buff to it, (+1 Arm per model killed or something) it would have SOMETHING worthwhile.

I actually don't dislike the direction the Makedas went in MK3 but it really feels like they only went halfway. Gave them all new spell lists but, for the most part, kept both of their old feats, neither of which was fully great with infantry (which she was supposed to be supporting).

Really, if Makeda1 or 2 got Fury, it would make her pretty sweet.

Molik himself, I think, just needs to change. He needs to be more focused instead of just a nefred down version of what he used to do. Molik isn't going to be the hail mary assassin he used to be so they should just refocus him into being a yo-yo armor cracker (upping his P+S, giving back Fate Walker but maybe loosing Side Step). Let him be able to go in and piece trade and get out instead of just being this half and half beast that can't do what he used to do well and an exorbitant price tag.

>>51122008

Oh shit. You're right.

Fuck man.

I mean, it still lets her possibly become a cruise missile on her feat but that does kind of suck.

At least she CAN play pretty far up the board unlike Vayl1.

>>51122008

Madrak 3 looks on in envy

What happened, Menoth got even buffer than before?

>>51122540

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Really, they seemed to have toned down PoM's denial game by nerfing stuff like the Vassal and Covenant. I guess they compensated by giving out more buffs. In particular, Menoth casters seem to be way better off than before because they have to rely less on their battlegroup doing work without their direct input.

eMadrak ate a nerf because he could surf his way to a bullshit assasination, but cant Butcher2 do virtually the same?

>>51122879

1: Homicidal Maniac is not even close to as good as overtake for surfing a unit
2: Rage Counters cap at 3

Butcher 2 is not even close to eMadrak's pre-nerf feat.

>>51123092
Honestly my only gripe with his feat was how hard he was to kill afterwards.

Where can I find theme lists?

>>51123960
Wait until hopefully thursday, and then on PP's site.

File: abby2.jpg (332KB, 600x600px) Image search: [Google]

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I want to have sex with dragon lady.

(Absylonia 2) Absylonia, Daughter of Everblight [+28]
- Proteus [19]
- Carnivean [19]
- Carnivean [19]
- Carnivean [19]
- Carnivean [19]
The Forsaken [4]
The Forsaken [4]

Obviously, gonna wait and see what Theme Forces bring us this week, but, how's this for heavy beast spam?

>>51124103
>that
>spam

Try harder. This is Warjackspammachine, take your beasts and go home.

http://conflictchamber.com/#b21A171U1U1U1U1S1S24243B3B3B3z3z2_30

Protectorate Retarded Amon Spam Theme - 75 / 75 points

(Amon 1) High Allegiant Amon Ad-Raza [+29]
- Crusader [10]
- Crusader [10]
- Crusader [10]
- Crusader [10]
- Castigator [12]
- Castigator [12]
- Templar [15]
- Templar [15]
Wrack [0]
Wrack [0]
Wrack [0]
Vassal of Menoth [0]
Vassal of Menoth [0]
Choir of Menoth (min) [4]
Choir of Menoth (max) [6]

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>>51124146
Yeah, but I don't want to have sex with a smelly Arab.

>>51124182
Well too bad cause he's coming to fuck you.

>>51124146
Who thought this was okay?

PP pls why. How am I supposed to beat this?

>>51124232
Just spam heavies. Or Sentinels.

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>>51124146
>Mad Dogs are degenerate.
>Crusader spam with FREE Vassals and FREE Focus batteries is not.
God damn this list is gross.

>>51124300
>>51124300
>>51124300

>>51124232
Time for Armor Piercing.

>>51124182
Amon is sexy fak u.

Are there medium based ten mans outside of trolls?