Warmachine / Hordes General - /wmhg/

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>Dead Game
>Mark 3 was a mistake
>Soles sucks

>>51026244
So what happened to the game?

>>51026681
Nothing a lot of fags just complain about it

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>>51026681

Autism happened

>>51026737

>Pretending the balance of Mark 3 was ok and not a shit show

Hi Hungerford, are you interested in my Skorne? Or Cryx? Or Power Throws? Or Una? Or High Reclaimer? Or Flanking? Or Madrak 2? Or Wurmwood? Or or or or or or

>>51025451
Been out for a couple years. Recognize Baldur, Kaya, and Kromac - who's the blonde broad in the middle?

>>51026681
Really bad fucking PR.

I honestly cannot imagine the butthurt and the rage being the current state without the insider or PP responses that have followed MKiii

>>51027529
New Battlebox chick

>>51026681
>>51027555

One of the factions had its players-base drafted into being toxic anti-promoters, whether they liked it or not. I'd avoided it online but then IRL somebody who didn't play the game asked me how he could get into Skorne too and I bluescreened right in front of the guy.

>>51026681
I agree with >>51027555 the mkiii roll-out was straight up awful.

I also think the game is just less complex in general, especially after the errata. The ability to target your guys with charges really added a lot of depth and now you cant even slam your own dudes

>>51028317
>The ability to target your guys with charges really added a lot of depth

Right, +3" movement due to what was clearly a rules oversight, so much depth.

>>51027563
Circle has a new battlebox? About fucking time. Is she any good? and do we still have a shitty Argus in the box?

>>51028330
The bigger investment was in units that got special rules or attacks at the end of charges. If a unit got Pathfinder on a charge, you could use it to retreat back to a point by charging your own objectives or units, or you could use it to slam your own models in order to open or empty out a lane.

Take a look at units like the Silver Shield Stormguard; You could run a model up to them, then charge that model and still get to be able to act in their faces. Now, you just can't do anything to them, greatly changing what they're worth and how powerful their ability is, because they've made the rules simpler and with fewer options.

Sometimes, that means good things, like no +3 movement or whatnot, but just as often it's taking away a tactical option that is, effectively, a nerf to many units and factions.

>>51028317
The only depth it added was making sure you couldn't deny assassination casters their own threat ranges and letting fragile casters hang out even farther back safely while still getting a ballbusting feat.

Removal of charging friendly models was only a good thing.

>>51028413
I'm all for having more options, and I do wish they'd at least leave throwing your own models in, because at least that kinda made sense, like I could see someone like Butcher commanding his 'jacks to throw him at the enemy. And I do hope they never take out attacking your own models, because there's some legitimately interesting/clever stuff you can do with it.

But charging your own models for extra movement has always felt extremely exploitative, much like "measuring your control range/command bubble" before premeasuring was properly introduced, and I'm glad it's gone.

>Silver Line Stormguard
Dude, they're still utter shit. Their only saving grace is the fact that they can't be charged, and even that isn't enough to make them worthwhile.

>>51028413
Yes, god forbid that a unit's ability not be trivially negated a hole in the rules.

There's more to argue about the friendly Power Attacks issue, but all it means now is that high DEF stuff actually has a purpose, and if you want to counter it, you need to bring your actual anti DEF shit. This serves to widen out list building and actually(slightly) prevent skewing.

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>>51028338
Every main faction has a new battlebox.

And yeah, Argus is still there, but I'm not sure about him being shitty.

>>51028520
Get your bullshit high def argument out of here. Knockdown was meant to deal with shit like admonition and enable hurting impossible to touch stuff instead of relaying purely on dice rolls to give you all sixes.

>>51028640
new argus is really good since the animus is assassination tool now

>>51028802
Every faction has some sort of answer to high DEF models, acting like there should be a universal answer every single army has access to is hilarious.

It's like wanting a +5 to damage rolls for any model you wanted in every single army.

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>>51028856
>mfw when I play trolls

yes, being able to make anything have a good damage curve was one of the best aspect of the faction. Now we are stuck with Madrak 2 or Ragnor 1 or bust.

Now fix our fucking animi PP.

>>51028856
>Every faction has some sort of answer to high DEF models
Wow this guy clearly hasn't played Skorne.

>>51028982
>CRA in faction on a 10 man unit
>CMA in faction
>MAT9 solo that can boost his attacks
>MAT8 solos that can boost their attacks
>Several casters with -DEF spells or feats
>You can still throw or slam enemy models
>Several casters give MAT buffs or ways to boost any melee attacks

As someone who's played exclusively Warmachine for years now and only ever looked at Hordes from a distance:

Is it just me or are your factions on average weaker than WMs? Whenever I look at your shit, I think to myself "Wow, I'd never pay that many points for this", even when it comes to the supposedly 'better' models. What gives?

>>51028982
>still using Skorne in conversation

Yes, we all know Skorne is fucked, we get it. Stop using it as an example until after the errata.

>>51029135
Pre-Mk3? Hordes was better than Warmachine

Now? Warmachine is better than Hordes.

>>51029063
>CRA in faction on a 10 man unit
That's RAT5 at base when everyone else's ranged units are RAT6, and we have no models that support gunlines.
>CMA in faction
CMA is a joke and you know it.
>MAT9 solo that can boost his attacks
Yeah and he's SPD4 and needs souls
>MAT8 solos that can boost their attacks
Yeah and they're SPD4 and need souls
>Several casters with -DEF spells or feats
Rasheth's feat, Xekaar's Mortality, and Hexxy2's Black Spot are the only DEF debuffs in faction. 2 of those casters suck dick, and the other needs his feat
>You can still throw or slam enemy models
Sure but you ain't throwing your own shit anymore. Yet another mark against the Titan Sentry
>Several casters give MAT buffs or ways to boost any melee attacks
Rasheth has a buff against living models, Zaadesh2 has his feat, Makeda1 (see: garbage) has Carnage, Hexxy1 (see: garbage) has Death March, and Makeda2 has feat

You're pretty much either playing a bad caster, or you're on feat turn. Rasheth isn't really part of the conversation because he's Skorne's only GOOD caster.

>>51029153
This nigger >>51029063 made claims.

>>51029168
>Pre-Mk3? Hordes was better than Warmachine
Wow, so Cryx used to be a Hordes faction?

>>51029188
I'm sorry, I think you made a mistake here. You assumed that current meta definitions of shit are universally applied. Just because some shit is bad now, it will be bad forever.

>>51029206
Oh look, a comedian. I'm talking about general trends, not set in stone laws.

>>51029135
Hordes was better than Warmachine in MK2. More open fists, transferring damage, and you could outspend warmachines with fury/focus by a ton.

MK3 added:
+ one free focus for all warjacks each turn
+ warcaster focus negates five damage outright
+ (sub-buff) warcasters don't need to hoard all their focus to survive anymore
+ warjacks are no longer disabled if knocked down in water
+ frenzy thresholds were reduced across the board
+ most warlock spells have either been increased in cost or are no longer upkeeps

Overall MK3's edge gives it to Warmachine factions.

>>51029310
>+ warcaster focus negates five damage outright
You understand this was a nerf, right?

>>51029310
>+ warcaster focus negates five damage outright
As opposed to negating 7+ per hit without expending any because all you do is camp focus every turn while your cheap weaponmasters kill everything?
>+ frenzy thresholds were reduced across the board
Factually false.

The big things that Mk3 added were free focus on jacks, and jack stats being MASSIVELY buffed.

>>51029336
Overall, it really wasn't. Squishy casters didn't benefit all that much from the ARM-bonus, and all casters can now be way more generous about spending their Focus.

>>51029387
>Caine2, Haley2, Denny2 and other assorted casters camping to ARM20+ on the turns where they were most vulnerable.
>Not benefiting

>>51029387
Casters are more generous about spending focus because they actually have something to spend it on. No one even brought warjacks in the first place because they were so much worse than weaponmaster spam.

>>51029135
Warbeasts are costed above warjacks across the board. Before power up, hordes had the much stronger battlegroup mechanic and beasts can still flexibly out damage jacks.

For example: a juggernaut had a pow 19 initial at mat 7, can buy one more pr charge, and now takes resources from your caster in order to buy attacks.

A Skorne gladiator, on about any turn within 9 inches of a beast handler, can charge has two pow 18 and a 16 initial, and can buy 3 more attacks at 18 without pulling any resources from a caster.

In a vacuum, warbeasts outperform warjacks on paper, and only need to heal one box per aspect to be at full capability, whereas a jack you might have to choose an arm to bring back, and if your cortex is out you've already lost your ability to give it resources to perform beyond advance and make initial attacks.

All that being said, they missed some marks with hordes in terms of caster power, what they can bring to the table, etc. In other areas, they completely disregarded the changes to recursion with the sentry stones and hellmouth. Both of these are hordes units, and the other options in their respective factions are considered not nearly as good as those options.

Overall the game is in a pretty good state, but there are some intangibles hordes is missing. Skorne is the most obvious example where they're individually costed like premium models with no regard to the high cost of their support. Circle retained a large stable of obviously powerful casters and is being carried by them Cryx mk 2 style. It's stuff like the hellmouth, sentry stones, and high reclaimer ignoring the new recursion mechanics, rulings on their rules forum being refuted in the next official statement or errata, unnecessarily nuking things likw cryx and mad dogs, and nonexistent nerfs to power options (storm lances buy buy buy) that piss people off.

>>51029425
> rulings on their rules forum being refuted in the next official statement or errata

To be fair, having their rules stay consistent until they make an official change isn't a bad thing.

They just need to be very clear that that's why the decision is being made, instead of just saying "Working as Intended"

If they'd have said "Flank is clearly broken, we're going to fix it, but we don't want to create a situation where the published rules are wrong", I don't think people would have been nearly as angry.

>>51029425
>storm lances

Not really to the point, but they couldn't have nerfed Storm Lances. If they did, Cygnar would lose one of their 2 good units. The existence of Storm Lances as a good, largely caster independent unit alone makes more casters viable and keeps the meta at least somewhat fresh. Without them you'd just hamstring the entire faction.

And then PP would have to face the fact that despite great tournament performance, Cygnar is really a faction filled with underperforming crap units, which would mean a lot more work for them. It's just smarter to leave Lances as they are.

>>51029378
What was broken about flank anyway? English isn't my first language, so most of the errata looked like the same sentences to me, before and after

>>51028330
>>51028486
What can I say, I'm very concervative with my casters. It enabled my playstyle and now its gone

>>51029795
Originally Flank didn't work on enemy models that were knocked down.

>>51030271
ok, because KD'd models don't have a melee range and as such don't engage or what?

>cucks bitching about Mk3 release balance
>forgetting the bullshit of Iron Flesh Kayazy at the beginning of Mk2
>forgetting that Gaspy2 was almost impossible to beat at the beginning of Mk2 before an errata
>forgetting about the rampant Mk2 bullshit like Wold War/Krueger2 pairing, pre-nerf Haley2 and Body and Soul
>forgetting about Mk1

You have no idea how good you Mk3 babies have it. If lists like Wurmwood, Una2, Karchev Mad Dog spam, and High Reclaimer are the worst we get in Mk3, then it's in a good place.

My only gripe is the obvious lack of proof reading in the main rulebook. The main rules are more solid than they've ever been but holy fuck does PP look dumb with some of the stuff they have had to clarify in the Rules forum and Erratas

The only thing that's for sure gotten worse are these threads. We used to be able to talk about lists, lore, and try to force funny/unfunny memes. The worst we ever got it was having to ignore some Warhammer shitposters. /tg/ used to be the place to go for spoilers too, you could always reliably find stats and pictures easier than any other site here.

I used to actually look forward to talk about shit on the /wmhg/. Now we just have a bunch of fags that probably don't even play the game rile shit up with stale memes and pushing a game like Guild Ball even though GB Generals can barely stand on their own without the same three guys circle jerking until they get bored after 20 posts.

>>51030322
More specifically, because they couldn't be engaged.

Game is boring as fuck now.

They're slowly sandpapering all of the neat little niche items that made Warmachine Warmachine.

LGS is about dead on the game. I walk in and see Age of Fucking Sigmar and Infinity.

What a fucking shame.

>>51031363
Sorry to hear that. My local community is actually growing.

>>51030552
I like talking about Cryx's lore. The other thing that kind of sucks about mkiii is that they aren't putting out the lore with the books anymore. It is all going to be in novels and shorts put out by skull island. This is kind of lame because there is no guarantee that they will put out lore equally for all factions, not that they did before necessarily. With GW it is almost all Marine wank. I don't want it to turn into the Cygnar show featuring some cryx.

getting really poorly written novellas is not my idea of fun either, I mean Venethrax almost lost to a literal anthill. I mean come on.

>>51030552
>pairing, pre-nerf Haley2 and Body and Soul
Oh early Iron Gauntlet, you will not be missed

>>51029255
Actually if you looked at tournament results from MK2, you usually had more Warmachine factions at the top with some Legion, Circle, or Trolls (closer to the end) occasionally there.

>>51030552
I play the game almost every week and I can tell you it's very stale now.
List construction has become stale because a lot of the solos and niche units are overcosted, the game is less three dimensional with the loss of a lot of the non-linear threats (usually via throws), and playing against Khador jack spam is even more aggravating than playing against MMM back in MK2.
Yet I still play, I try to make list innovations, I try to put the solos that are rarely used in my lists, etc. because I really want to like the game.

>>51032042

I mean, if the game feels stale after an errata that shook up most of the boogieman lists in the game, then I don't really know what to tell you.

>playing against Khador jack spam is even more aggravating

I don't know what Khador jack spam list could possibly give you fits after the Mad Dog/Karchev nerf.

>>51032220
Our local players never used Mad Dogs and while Karchev was used he is not the only viable jack spam caster.

>>51032220
I assume by "jack spam" he means, "take more than two warjacks".

>>51032237
Usually 4+ at ARM20

>>51032042

It's because 75 in Mark 3 is like 35 in Mark 2.

Take your caster
Take your Beasts/jacks
Take one unit
Take one support unit

All of the solos just waive bye and sit on the shelf.

Man they fucked this game up.

>>51032298
Yeah that's the general feeling that I have as well. Taking anything situational (for example, Viktor Pendrake) feels like a mistake because of how expensive it is.

>>51029378
>jack stats MASSIVELY buffed
Fucking where? I know Cygnar jacks got some stat increases but not "MASSIVELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".

>>51032298

Uhh no. 75 points in Mk3 is quite close to 50 points in Mk2, just a couple points smaller so that you can't fill up on support pieces anymore.

It only feels smaller because Warmachine armies are forced to take bigger battlegroups now.

>>51026244
"I can't handle that I actually have to bring anti-def to games and that Khador is a real faction now, what a bad game"

>>51032236
>>51032250

>playing against Khador jack spam is even more aggravating than playing against MMM back in MK2
>not talking about Mad Dogs
>just 4+ khador heavies

What the fuck are you talking about?

>>51032522
Taking 4-6 ARM 20 30+ boxes jacks off the board is not an easy task for all factions.
I play Hordes so I usually have to put 1-2 beasts into a jack to take it down.

>>51026775
>Skorne
on the brink of being fixed
>Cryx
got some love and was always viable. Ever heard of Raiders and Coven?
>Power Throws
Yeah, DEF is finally a useful stat, what a stupid change.
>caster x is op
learn how 2 counter?

This game is what happens when you go out of your way to appeal to WAAC tourney fags.

In a way, you all created this mess yourselves.

>>51029415
See I know what you're trying to get at with bitching about "infantry-machine", but everyone took at least one jack. You'd be an idiot not to use literal free points.

>>51029512
Objectively false. Most of our units aren't all that worse than they were in Mk II, hell Trenchers actually are close to viable. Except we have the objectively better option of 'lances. That said, I'd like to see a minor nerf to 'lances but a buff to some of our other shit.

They still haven't done fuck all about Haley 2. Bitch is still half the reason Cygnar even makes it to tournaments.

>>51030552
Don't forget turn one kill lists. You could do that for a few years depending on faction. What I'm salty about with Mk III is the simple fact that we shouldn't be having these issues. We had Mk I, PP learned and had the field tests and everything. Then we had Mk II and PP learned more. Now we get to Mk III and I'm still seeing glaringly unbalanced shit running around without a peep from PP. They should have learned by now.

>>51032554
Are you actually that dumb? Khador's stick is to be hard to kill, but in return they are butt-fuck slow and expensive.

You're supposed to outmaneuver them (which is really easy) and take out as many as you can, prioritizing the ones that are the most annoying to your victory condition.

This kind of playstyle is new to people, because they're used to Khador being the worst faction in the game.

>>51032554

>I try to trade cheap warjacks with typically more expensive beasts

I've held this off the entire time, but git gud

>>51032639

>They still haven't done fuck all about Haley 2

As long as she has her current feat, TK, and Domination, she will be among the best casters in the game. Losing Decel for Force Field, and having Time Bomb apply the debuff to only the target directly hit is objectively a nerf though. So saying that "they still haven't done fuck all about Haley 2" when this is the third nerf she's gotten in a year is asinine.

>I'm still seeing glaringly unbalanced shit running around without a peep from PP.

Putting aside how balanced/unbalanced Mk3 is, to say that there's not a "peep from PP" is just not fucking true. Whether or not you agree with how they reacted to things, they've publicly acknowledged the issues people are having with the game balance right now, and they are plugging in the holes in the game quicker than they ever have before.

>inb4 PP shill

Fine, but you're still wrong.

>>51032809
They are not slow (most of their casters speed them up) and they are very inexpensive now. Have you looked at their jacks?
>>51032829
You can't not trade if you want them out of the scenario. You either have to take them off the board of kill them in order to actually score in most live scenarios.

>>51032466

Yes, so you're saying your Battlegroup is a larger percentage of your army? Like a 35 point force feels?

>>51032960
>You can't not trade if you want them out of the scenario. You either have to take them off the board of kill them in order to actually score in most live scenarios.

You know there are plenty of options to, push, slam, place models out of the zone right? I think your problem is that you're too caught up on beating Khador at it's own game when you should be capitalizing on their weaknesses.

The other Anon is right, Khador jacks ARE slow, and though the caster can speed them up, that's resources they are spending to make them like that. Consider options that will force your opponent to play conservatively with his focus or risk getting assassinated. Also Khador jack speed buffs is commonly something like Boundless Charge, so anything that can prevent them from charging can really fuck with them.

This would be better if you just told us which Hordes faction you play.

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>>51032594

You read like pure autism

>>51032902
>Haley 2
What I'm getting at is that they haven't done enough. I don't want her nerfed into fucking oblivion, I just don't want every tournament list to start out "Alright Haley 2, season to taste, now who do I want to experiment with?".

>PP response
Yeah, haven't heard much out of them. Maybe the last couple weeks they've spoken up more, but they haven't had near the presence on the forums like they used to. Plus the whole never mentioning why they ignore shit like 'lances or other fucked stuff. Would be pretty damn nice just to hear "well we weren't sure how to balance but didn't want to fuck tournament viability". I just want to know that they are actually aware of the various issues.

>>51032960
Speeding them up to a 10" threat range. Wow, call the errata police, that's broken.

A 12 point juggernaut is still 2 points over a 10 point battlebox heavy beast.

Furthermore, keep in mind that Khador jacks can't piece trade unless you fill them up (and depending on how heavy the target is, spending a focus for a charge ruins the math even further).

In case you didn't know, it's not great/possible to fill up your entire 4-6 jack battlegroup in order to trade with your opponents 5-7 beasts battlegroup.

>>51032996

Have you ever actually tried building a 35 point list in Mk2?

>>51033094

I've been around since Mark 2 autist.

It's funny you are arguing against this. I've heard it also said on two different podcasts, both Muse and Hand Cannon.

Guess all those tourney players must be wrong too? What's your credentials so you can tell me to 'git gud'?

>>51033143

Typo
>I've been around since Mark 1 when Vlad could top of 1 you and two units of Bane Knights fighting each other was hell on earth

>>51033037
>What I'm getting at is that they haven't done enough. I don't want her nerfed into fucking oblivion, I just don't want every tournament list to start out "Alright Haley 2, season to taste, now who do I want to experiment with?".

You know you could easily just not take Haley2 if you don't want to? If they just nerfed Haley2 to a B- caster tomorrow, it wouldn't change the pool of other casters that you can take.

You're the worst kind of fucking tryhard. You bitch and moan that you can't take the casters you want to play and so resign yourself to taking the "obligatory" tournament caster in order to feel like you can compete. If Haley2 was nerfed you would just take the next best thing anyway because you're too much of a pussy to just play the type of toy soldiers that you actually like for fear of losing some games in your tiny pond meta that no one gives a shit about.

>>51032902
Changing Decel for Force Field is a pretty big nerf for her. She doesn't protect her army on the way in now, and more importantly, she doesn't protect her arc node anymore. And she super needs her arc node.

>>51033143

>listening to Muse and Hand Cannon

kek

>>51033168
Oh, I'm talking to a literal retard. Okay.

>>51033143
List construction now is vastly different from anything in Mk2. The main difference is that you actually have to take jacks now and can't just spam whatever busted infantry unit your faction has. This is a good thing. Nobody wants to play against Cryx with 60 dudes

It's a new game, your playstyle and lists need to adjust

>>51033305
Not the anon you're replying to, just want to point out he's right dude. Play whatever you want anon and get good with that.

Disregarding the meta and forums is the best way to actually have fun with this game

>>51033582
This.

I saw this one guy at a small local tournament play Strakhov recently and watching him do nonsense was the greatest thing.

>>51033582
Oh I have plenty of fun when experimenting after new releases or errata. I've found some pretty fun combos that way. But are they good enough for when we hold tournaments? Fuck no. It's a vicious cycle of everyone having to bring their A game and there is no way to "break it" outside of diversifying viable options. Which PP hasn't done and I expect much better of them when they've gone onto their 3rd edition of rules.

>>51033654
Your meta sounds like a shit hole anon. If it's all serious business no wonder no one has fun.

The ironic answer here is litterally play what you want and actually get good playing it. You can win any local Steamroller with pretty much any caster on the game, even current Skorne, if you're good enough.

If you only pay whatever the current broken meta list is you're never going to actually improve your game

>>51029425

Obviously we need to go back to Mk1 rules where warjacks shut down as soon as they have 3 crippled systems.

>>51033516
>Nobody wants to play against Cryx with 60 dudes
I was actually fine against it because I played Legion. With tools like Ravagores, the Vault, Saeryn, etc. we really didn't have much problems with them.

>>51033654

You know unless you're Tom Guan traveling to every single major con, I can say with confidence that it absolutely doesn't matter if you play the absolute best casters your faction has to offer. If you practice what you like then you'll be able to chalk out more wins against the people in your meta who just band wagon hop on to the latest fad.

You said it yourself, it's a vicious cycle of everyone having to bring their A game. Nothing PP does is going to change that. In every game that has ever been made or will be made, you will have options that are straight up just going to be better than others. You will have people taking those options in order to get every edge they can on their opponent. If you want to be one of those people, then more power to you. Just don't try acting like you're some poor victim that can't take the stuff he wants to tournaments because the only person stopping you from doing that is yourself.

>>51033628
Honestly, there's even real merit to the Darkhorse element as well.

If you play shit no one knows how to deal with because they never see it, you're going to get wins on your opponent not knowing your shit.

>>51033886

You have no idea how many people I just smoked with arkadius when I would just show up to local tournaments with pigs in mk2

>>51033751
While that might be true in your area the only time we aren't going serious is when we're teaching, running leagues, or seeing how new models/errata affect the game.

>>51033778
Like I said, with better balance they can diversify the viable options. Will it magically make every single option perfectly viable? No, I doubt we'll ever get to that level of balance. Could we reach a point where every faction is facing very difficult choices as to what they will bring? Absolutely. Right now we don't have that.

>>51033925
I liked Carver more. 5d6 charge on feat turn with Slaughterhousers, as long as the target was damaged. Which wasn't that hard to do. Set it up right and you'd clear a board pretty easily.

>>51033998
>While that might be true in your area
I live in one of the most competitive metas in the US. You can absolutely play whatever you want, but you have to actually be good at the game and be good with the units you put on the table.

>>51031416
Same here

>>51033998
Look man, I like in a 50+ player, hyper competitive meta. People still play and win with jank, because even with all the shit, a large portion of this game is player skill and knowing what your army does.

>>51032612
Except mk3's problems stem from the fact that they went for a larger audience.

>>51032809
Khador jacks are NOT expensive. Juggernauts are still insane at 12 points. If I want a MAT7 heavy I have to pay 18 points.

>>51035907
Speed 4, DEF 10 and does nothing else save for crit freeze.

Compare to the Slayer, Crusader, Ironclad and so forth. They are either cheaper to balance their shortcomings or have more (and better) special rules.

>>51035979
>Compare to the Slayer

A worthless piece of junk that loses its arms as soon as someone waves a boosted POW12 in its direction?

>>51035997
You mean the boosted POW 12 that misses, because the shooter was debuffed to RAT -15?

>>51036046
The majority of Cryx casters don't have any way of debuffing RAT, so nice try.

>>51036046
What in Cryx debuffs RAT other than the Withering?

>>51036133
>>51036139
>taking RAT debuff literally
>what is coven

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>>51035979
>Speed 4, DEF 10 and does nothing else save for crit freeze
Like are you fucking cereal right now? My SPD4 DEF10 heavy costs more, and has lower PS attacks even with support. It's like your shit is so good you don't even know how good it is anymore. "But it ONLY has crit freeze!" like wow fuck you.

>>51026244
one of those 3 statements is true.

But the game isn't dead, and Mk3 was going to happen one day or another, it isn't as bad as it seems.

>>51026744
He would have been a great character in "the office" series

>>51028969
Your animi are working as intended, son.

>>51036205
So Slayers are usable with Coven. How many casters are Juggernauts usable with?

>>51033037
>I just don't want every tournament list to start out "Alright Haley 2, season to taste, now who do I want to experiment with?".
Well we are already at that point. It's now "Haley3, season to taste, then think about your other list"

>>51036258
>more attacks
>animus
>3-4 special abilities

Dude, come on. Of course the thing that does more things than hit real gud costs more. If you want to compare, then take something that fills the same slot of most basic beatstick with zero frills.

For example, Crusader - Juggernaut would be an apt comparison. Gladiator - Juggernaut is not.

>>51029255
Yeah, but he's funny and has a point.
Tournament results trended to show
Cryx > warmachine factions > Legion > hordes factions > mercs > minions > ret

>>51029336
not really a net nerf, more like a decent balacing idea: as noted tanky casters became less tanky, and squishy casters became less squishy.

>>51035907
>If I want a MAT7 heavy I have to pay 18 points.
Well the ones at 18p and 20p suck, so the actual MAT7 heavy costs 22p.

>>51029480
I get the impression that the infernals pick out these rule bending fucking retarded rules interactions: like saying "works as intended" about not being able to charge kd models
or melee range not being tied to the front arc.
stupid shit like that.
Infernals make a point to bring it to light so that pp senpai notices just how much stupid ass crap it is, so they can fix it.

>>51033032
it might be soles himself?

>>51036291
>>more attacks
I should hope so at that price.
>>animus
In Khador they just printed a better version of that animus on half the casters' cards instead.
>>3-4 special abilities
None of them matter aside from Open Fist. Oh no wait, none of them matter.

>>51035907
>still trying to beat Khador at their own game

The game doesn't work like that you retard. Khador jacks are big, beefy, hit like a truck and are very point efficient. But they're slow as fuck and painfully easy to hit. You just don't beat Khador at the jack/beast melee moshpit game, you play around it.

Complaining that you pay more than the faction whose entire thing is that their jacks are cheap is fucking retarded.

>>51036291
The Gladiator's special abilities all revolve around slams, AKA. the most useless of all power attacks by a long distance considering Skorne has very few ways to move models around reactively like Admonition from Morghoul1 or countercharge from Zaadesh2 which even then require your opponent to volutarily trigger them.

And while you can cry "MUH ANIMUS" all you want, an animus doesn't actually kill anything. All Skorne heavies boil down to beatsticks. A local Menoth player recently proclaimed, "Why would I take a MAT6 heavy? It'll just miss the target too much".

>>51036354
Nigger I wasn't making a statement about quality. The abilities aren't great, sure, but comparing a jack with an empty card to a beast with four abilities is fucking stupid.

>>51036363
>Khador jacks are big, beefy, hit like a truck and are very point efficient.
I kind of remember when you could say the same about Titans. Back then that wasn't just Khador's game.

>>51036374
When those abilities are utter garbage it doesn't make any fucking difference.

Did I mention the fucking thing is 10/19/30? Because that's fucking worse than the Slayer at 13/17/30. I mean it's still slightly better than Dragonspawn at 11/18/30 but it's pretty fucking terrible. Also MAT6 on every fucking beast below 18p (and on 2 at 18p). So complain about your oh so terrible Juggernaughts once there are beasts as good as it at less than 10p extra.

>>51036375
Spoiled Khador brats also seem to forget that Titans also dropped down to DEF10 from the lofty heights of DEF12, making them as easy to hit as Khador, except with less ARM. Hilariously this also punted Mordikaar into the shit tier pile along with our other 5-6 unplayable casters.

>>51036258
>Skorne complaint before errata hits
>lol

Besides, how many attacks do you get out of a Titan? 7? 8?

>>51036285
No, with Coven they are excellent. Without Coven, they are still moderately-hard hitters with DEF 13, SPD 6 and come dirt cheap.

>>51036409
>still using Skorne in polite conversation

We get it, Skorne is shit, stop bringing it up until after the errata.

>>51036425
>until after the errata
Would be nice if they released the fucking thing already. The changes have been locked in for ~3 weeks now.

>>51036425
>We get it, Skorne is shit, stop bringing it up until after the errata.
Just trying to give Khador shitters some perspective.

>>51036418
>Besides, how many attacks do you get out of a Titan? 7? 8?
7 for an average of 34 damage against an ARM20 target. If you miss a single swing (you need a 4 to hit), you won't kill it.

If you charge in, it's an average of 32.5 damage.

>>51036440
Same goes for the faction card PDFs.

I can't stand reading the leaked Cygnar and Trollbloods shit.

Skorne crybabies shouldn't focus on complaining about others being overpowered, they should complain about themselves being totally underpowered.

Khador (and others) getting strong didn't make Skorne shit, Skorne becoming shit made Skorne shit.

>>51036467
Skorne is no perspective, it's just shit. There's nothing to gain by pointing at a steaming turd and saying "See? This pile of shit is worse!"

Wait until after the errata and stop being a salty bitch until then.

>>51036467
A charging Juggernaut does ~28 points against an ARM 19 target on the charge if everything hits.

>>51036474
>[Skorne players] should complain about themselves being totally underpowered
Are you new to these threads?

>>51036550
I have literally never seen a salty Skorne player who said "My faction sucks, they need to fix it".

Instead, they always go "Why is your stuff so OP, while our stuff sucks? What a shitty game, pley guildball lolz"

>>51036585
Everything is relative. Saying Skorne sucks alone means that everything else is better, so it's the same thing really. Just with an added lament over how much better everyone else's stuff is by comparison.

>>51036469
Why? Is it that bad?

>>51028520

You must play Cygnar.

Considering how trivial it is to negate other defensive techs like stealth and tough by just bringing the right models; negating anti-charge with positioning and model sacrifice isn't any worse.

>>51030552
I dont complain about balance, even though my faction went from going 50-50 against everything to 30-70 against anything other than cryx and skorne (I play trolls). I complain about lack of shenanigans, which were what made the game the mest wargame out there for me. I want cmd checks, power attacks, wreck markers and terrain back to how they were at the end of mk2. I would trade buffs to my faction for this any day.

>>51036936
I would have liked cmd checks to be changed, not removed from the game, that's for sure.

What are some of the more mediocre Protectorate casters?
I've mostly been playing Sevvy1, but I want to branch out a bit. However, I'm mostly playing casual games, so I don't want to subject my friends to top dog casters.

Furthermore I have a question regarding melee range (or ranges in general). If something is 2" away from one of my models with 2" reach, is that guy in my reach? The question came up against Nemo3 with his Electrify spell, which pushes attackers 1" away. I charged B2B with the buffed model, but we weren't sure if I'm out of range after 2 attacks or 3 (because after the second attack I would be pushed 2" away, which also was my melee range).

>>51036831
It absolutely is different, because you have to bring those models.

That's my argument. straight up: if you want to counter something, you need to bring the models. You should not get to counter a models defensive tech just by existing.

>>51037722
>mediocre Protectorate casters
Kreoss2, Feora1, Feora2 (sadly -- she was my jam in Mk2)
>rules question
We've always played that scenario here locally as you would still be within 2 after 2 hits if you were B2B.

>>51037722
You'd still be in range at that point, provided you were B2B with the model when the initial attack hit.

>>51037722
>>51038054
Dude, what?

If the rules require your target to be within 2" of you, and there are 2" of space between you and your target, then it can't be within 2" now, can it? So no, if you have 2" reach and get pushed 2" directly away from your target you can't attack it.

>>51038111
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?19536-2-inch-Repel-Effects-and-Reach&highlight=electrify

get rekt

>>51038111
Exactly 2" away is within 2" by the rules.

>>51038096
Can you give me a rules reference to somewhere in Prime? Would make it hella lot easier, because as >>51038111 demonstrated, it can be viewed in another way, too.

However, how do ranges on guns and special abilities work? If I have a Handgun with Range 12, do I need to place the model 11,9" away from my target to shoot at it? If there's E-Leaps around, can I place my dudes 4" apart and it prevents them, or do they need to be 4,1" apart?

>>51038139
You don't have to do any of that, he's wrong.

>>51038129
>no infernal ruling

Am I supposed to be impressed? Sorry, I'd rather refer to logic than some chucklefucks on the PP forums.

>>51038138
Now I'm interested too. Can you point me to the exact and official ruling for that?

>>51038147
Then what about my assumptions here concerning E-Leaps and guns? >>51038139 for reference

>>51038147

You're supposed to realize you're incorrect. Infernals don't rule on threads where there is no question.

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?192890-Reach-And-Repel

Here's another one, with no Infernal saying "Hey, that's wrong!"

>>51038161
Well, going by common sense, "within" means "within", so as long as any part of the model is physically inside the range of the effect, it can be targeted.

>>51038147
Also, page 12 of the Prime Rules Digest:
"A model is within a given distance when the nearest edge of its base is within that distance. If two models are exactly a certain distance apart, they are considered to be within that
distance of each other."

>>51038190
Looked it up, you're right, I suppose I did get rekt.

>>51038204
No worries -- I fuck shit up all the time. I was just pretty sure about this specific case.

>>51038054
What about Casters like Harbinger, Thyra and Vindictus? I haven't seen much talk about them in mkIII

>>51038317

>Harbinger
I haven't played Harbinger enough in Mk3 to tell you honestly whether or not she's mediocre. Logic says she probably is, due to infantry being far less effective in Mk3 and the beating Bastions took in the edition change.

>Thyra and Vindictus
I've played both of these casters and they're actually fairly powerful due to good personal defensive stats and threat extension. Vindictus's Mk2 feat on an upkeep spell is actually pretty good, and he protects his army on the approach very well.

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Playing my first few games tomorrow.

Any ideas on how I should play?

I own:

>Gaspy1
>Venethrax
>2x Slayers
>Reaper
>Cankerworm
>Deathripper
>6 man Bane Warrior unit
>2x Pistol Wraiths

>>51038408
Assassinate with Asphyxious.

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>>51036281

Oh my god it's so easy to make Skorne models playable. Watch this:

>Willbreaker
Gains Black Arts (one free upkeep)

>Cyclops Raider
Can choose which spiral/column its damage goes to

>TyCom
Swaps Reveille for Stir the Blood

EEEAAASSSYYYY

Was somebody arguing the juggernaut was overcosted today?

That's...next level.

>>51039767
Sure was, Khador trying to justify their bullshit faction is cute.

>>51039767
But it's only 2 points cheaper than a Gladiator, except the Gladiator always has access to its full damage output AND gives you access to Rush ;^)

>>51039868
The Juggernaut has way more staying power than a Gladiator, especially when you take into account certain caster buffing that up (like Harkevich or Kozlov on feat turn)
Also "only two points" means you can fit another thing into your list (especially once you consider the fact that most of the jacks are a few points cheaper, which means you can fit a whole lot of stuff)

>>51039868
>>51039989
Also you are ignoring the fact that MAT 7 on a cheap heavy is a big fucking deal. MAT 7 is usually reserved to character beasts in Hordes that cost a lot more points. Being able to hit reliably means that you need to spend way less resources in order to hit a target that has DEF 14

>>51039767
No, the point was more along the lines, that it's fine for 12 pts, especially when you compare it with the other basic beat sticks from Warmachine.
However, it was mostly a comparison between Warmachine and not towards Hordes and especially not with Skorne, because anyone with half a brain would finally have stopped comparing them to anything until the errata drops.

>>51040138
Let's compare it with Minions then, which are considered one of the better Hordes faction in MK3.
How many MAT7 beasts do they have? 0, unless you primal them which means you need to use resources to get them there and they are a wasted activation next turn.
How many POW 19 beasts do they have? Again, 0 unless you rage or primal them for 2 fury or use the dial on the War Hog for 1 fury to get it close enough (and then they take 1D3 damage on an already more fragile body). This takes out a lot of the potential threat of the beast in question when you consider that.
What are the 12 point or less options in Minions?
Blind Walker (12 points) - a self damaging arc node/shield guard that has a mighty P+S of 14
Boneswarm (7 points) - a useless beast you will never see and it's even worse now with less infantry on the board
Bull Snapeer (5 points) - He used to be an animus bot but now he can't even do that and if he does use the animus he has no fury left.
Battle Boar (7 points) - Primal bot, that's all he is there for. If you happen to get him in range of a unit that's really close together he can do some work if their DEF is low or if you primal him and hope he doesn't need to boost.
Gun Board (9 points) - a decent gun on a super fragile body but that's fine
Razor Boars (7 points for 2) - At a mighty p+s 10 (12 on a charge) they really don't see the board with less infantry in the game
Splatter Boar (8 points) - Really got nerfed in MK3 and I find that in general it's better to spend the 1 extra point to get a Gun Boar for the superior gun.

>>51039868
I'm so fucking sick of the "warbeast has full output every turn bullshit"

It doesn't.

There's nothing that just magically removes fury every turn for every beasts to pull that shit.

>>51040509
>There's nothing that just magically removes fury every turn for every beasts to pull that shit
Mk2 Handlers ;~;

This is also the very reason that 7+ fury casters tend to be the better ones. The more you can leach back, the easier your beasts are to handle. This is one reason why Rasheth and his fury 8 sits atop the Skorne pile.

>>51040509
It's not like the beast survives anyway so might as well use everything - that's your fury removal.

>>51040541
So you're trading away a 14+ model for a 12 point model?

>>51040394
You could've just said that Beasts are currently behind Jacks stat-wise and probably anyone would have believed you.
So yes, Jacks currently have better stats than jacks.
However, if you want to balance this out, it's probably smarter to adjust beasts than to adjust Jacks, because, as already mentioned, Jacks are mostly balanced against each other already.
The changes to Skorne will reveal if PP is going to adress this or if it's going to be a longer lasting problem in this edition.

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>>51040556

>>51040563
Even if it changes for Skorne (doubtful by enough), it will take them a long time to address the rest of Hordes. Don't forget we are also getting a new faction this year which is sure to have problems that will need to be addressed

>>51040509

If you're taking 4 warjacks in a faction without empower mechanics (like khador) they aren't going to have full output every turn either.

The bigger problem with the focus/fury assymetry that nobody ever talks about is you can load up a 'jack and send it off to piece trade well outside of your 'caster's control area, which you can't do with a beast since they need to stay inside the warlock's control area to be forced. That's honestly one of the bigger reasons that it's baffling that beasts are so much more expensive than jacks.

Why not just disregard mk3 and play mk2?

>>51040702
Yeah, while a 5-6 fury Warlock has to make sure he activates before he sends a beast in to make sure it stays in, a 5-6 focus Warcaster can just make sure the Jack is in his control at the end of the turn (if he thinks he will survive at all) which allows him to activate when he is needed most.
>>51040732
Because unlike GW games, Warmachine is a tournament game and most of the people that play it participate in them. It's like you can make your own Steamroller rules unless you play in your basement.

>>51040753
>It's like you can make your own
you can't*

>>51040556
>>51040594
This is actually a bit misleading though.
Every Beast grants an additional spell and fury is still a more flexible ressource than focus. This has to be somehow accounted for in their cost.
I'm not denying that there's a problem with jacks vs beasts, however it's ridiculous to assume that beasts can be costed solely on their stats alone.

>>51040615
That sadly makes sense. However the public playtests may speed up the process with which models get adjusted. The Skorne errata seemed to have sucked up a lot of ressources, given the size of the errata for the rest of the game. The public playtest will hopefully improve this

>>51040770
I agree that animi need to be accounted for but as it stands a lot of the animi aren't even been used because of how bad or expensive they are (or both in the case of Spiny Growth in Minions where the only one that might use it is the caster if he has nothing to do with his fury)

>>51040770
>Every Beast grants an additional spell and fury is still a more flexible ressource than focus. This has to be somehow accounted for in their cost.

They accounted for a lot of them already by making them not worth having. Not hyperbole.

>>51040615
I'm not so sure. If I were a betting man the new faction will beast pack and unit heavy. They've been described as working like their own little ecosystem.

Not super sold on beast packs, but I would like to see an effective battlegroup centric list that contains every base size.

>>51040956
That doesn't mean they won't need to be fixed, seeing the current PP track record.

What's the difference between a MK2 token set and a regular token set?

>>51041218
Probably nothing, the new ones do come in faction colours though

>>51038147
If there is exactly 2" between two models those two models are within 2" of each other. Seems you don't really like referring to logic.

>>51039762
But the Willbreaker is already amazing.

WIth the Tycom I'd really like the standard to get some sort of ability. Anything is better than nothing.

6 days until the Protectorate book. Who's got scans?

>>51041735
>But the Willbreaker is already amazing
At what? It doesn't have Herding so you can't leach back through it which means extending control range is pretty much worthless. 4 points for Puppet Master or Tough is overcosted to the point where Cataphracts are just having Tough stapled onto them.

The standard bearer has an excellent ability though. He makes a great target to land a Breath of Corruption exactly where you want it.

>>51041889
Hell with scans. I'd take pics of relevant info. Unfortunately it's probably going to be a few more agonizing days tho

>>51042160
That's what I meant, desu. Only need four pages -- Feora3, Eye of Truth, and the two themes.

Do you think that the new approach (public playtesting and the like) could have big impact? Or just small polishing? Like if all the playtesters told them to bring back power attacks against own models would PP just tell them to fuck themselves?

>>51042448
You have to remember that no developer in the world can possibly compete with the rigorous scrutiny that the public can put their game through, so public NotBeta testing is likely to have quite a big impact on the game. I don't get what that has to do with the power attack change though.

>>51042735
The connection to power attacking your own model is bait, so that we can have the discussion about how to make def irrelevant vs interesting and unusual tricks again

>>51042808
Then the Skorne players can jump in and talk about their already irrelevant defense and how the Titan Sentry's Steady is much less relevant now.

>>51042808
Throwing wasn't only used to knock enemies down, it was also used to extend threat ranges. I used a throw against Lylyth3 for example not to knock her down (because you can't) but to get the few more attacks I needed to kill her. Without throws, threat ranges in a lot of factions is now more linear again which is boring.

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>>51043305
>snek is sad now

Throwing your own shit for knockdown was a weird interaction that got lost in the shuffle.

Throwing your own shit for threat extension was bullshit, and I say that as a player who has won tournament games peddling said bullshit.

>>51043305
Ok, but from what I gathered is that it wasn't just once or twice but was straight up abused a lot. When the situation is like that, it makes sense to me to ban it.

>>51043454
I agree that it is bullshit but I also think factions should have more non-linear threats. The more they remove them the more the game feels 2D

>>51043475
>Change Serpentine to say that the model also can't be thrown
Snake tossing fixed without taking half the game with it. Why use a sledgehammer to crack a walnut?

>>51043524
Then it would still be in the game for dudes like the High Reclaimer to abuse. The errata they did is effective and workable. If you want the rule for fun or maybe some additional depth then you can just ignore it in casual games.
For a tournament it just makes more sense to have a clean cut and not a bunch of dudes which you can throw or not or whatever. This makes it more easy to handle for both players and designers because they don't have to learn/create a bunch of rules for each models

>>51043524
Because they're fixing the issue of high DEF not being worth shit, either on a caster or an important solo.

>>51040732
Even deader game

Theme forces next week, it seems.

>>51043636
Holy shit, enough of your high defense conspiracy

>>51043712
Notice all the people bitching and moaning because their armor skew focused lists all of a sudden don't have an answer for high DEF?

>>51043747
No.

>>51037988
Huh? They would still need to get a friendly close to your chargeproof unit to use that rule gap.

So, anyone have any thoughts on how to spam properly with Kaya3?

I realize we haven't seen her card, but we know:

>Field Marshal: Reposition 3"
>Synergy
>Feat that adds some sort of defense and allows walking through models and ignoring free strikes to battlegroup, speculated to be Parry/Acrobatics or Ghostly/Incorporeal

(which, honestly, is enough to be playable by itself, but she'll probably have other spells, too)

So, what's going to be good with her?

She's going to want a Primal caster so either cheap beasts can wreck heavies or expensive ones can wreck colossals.

Sentry Stones are too good to pass up, and give amazing infantry clear in a list that looks like it's going to want to run battlegroup-heavy.

Candidates for inclusion:

>Warpwolf Stalker
>Pro: 2" Reach, optional Berserk, Pathfinder, max PS 23, FURY 4
>Con: Expensive for a caster who has multiple whole-battlegroup abilities

>Rip Horn Satyr
>Pro: Free charges, 4 initials (3 + CA: G&S, but Hard Head makes most chain attacks full PS), Bulldoze
>Con: SPD 5, no pathfinder. Not exactly cheap.

>Gnarlhorn Satyr
>Pro: Cheap. Counterslam. Great defensive animus. Grand Slam & Follow Up.
>Con: SPD 5 No pathfinder. Two initials only :'( max out at PS 19

>Shadowhorn Satyr
>Pro: Cheap. Bounding Leap. 3 initials + chain throw.
>Con: No pathfinder. Maxes out at PS 19 (with initials being 18/18/19).

>Scarsfell Griffon
>Pro: Long Leash, 3 initials, Stealth, Flight
>Con: Just fucking play Una2

At the moment I'm thinking a battlegroup of a Gorax and a stack of Gnarlhorns, and picking up my old trig text to figure out how to lay them out to make Counterslam work.

Is there a single standard bearer in the game that does anything anymore except give +2cmd?

>>51044170
Well, some of them manage to keep their weapon (Stormblade UA flag bearer for example). Although no flag bearer per se, Legion has some funky UAs where the flagbearer is switched out for something cool

>>51043789
Then pay more attention.

>>51043809
Given that the SLSG are meant to be out front, that's not really that difficult.

>>51028519
>much like "measuring your control range/command bubble" before premeasuring was properly introduced

Confirmed for being new or just not reading the rules. Using control area to premeasure was absolutely an intended part of the ruleset. You "play as" your warlock and they have a degree of preternatural sense throughout their control area in addition to sharing the senses and thoughts of their beast. It was flavorful and interesting. You could measure your control area from your warlock to any point in it any time for any reason, the measurement was just public knowledge for you and your opponent and it was vital for making sure feats, etc worked.

Command range, on the other hand, was much more limited. You could not measure it the same way you could measure control area and many people did try to use to CHEAT not just "exploit". You could only measure a unit's command range during the unit's activation and ONLY measure from the unit leader to a single model in the unit (to make sure you kept models in your leaders command range) you absolutely could not "sweep" or measure generally like you could with control area. If you let people cheat by not reading the rules, that's as much your fault as it is theirs.

>>51044406
That's fine in theory, but all it did was make high FOC/FURY casters even more powerful than they already are.

>>51037988
So you want list building to be more important than play on the table? I'm not saying list building isn't important and would even say that it should be 50/50 between the two, but removing on-table tactics and replacing it with "LOL DEF" isn't the right answer to a couple exploits. Over-fixing is PP's MO though.

>>51040541
If beasts are supposed to be more epxendable than jacks, then they should be cheaper and toned down to reflect this. I'd rather toss POW cheaper, lower POW models at Juggernauts than overpriced ones that don't even match the Jugg's POW.

Can someone give me 10 pts list for Vayl and Lilith? Playing against Trollbloods and Cryx mostly.

>>51044565
List building is already incredibly important. This, in fact, serves to make list building less important, because it encourages more take all comers/balanced style armies. Not by much, but it's still a move in the right direction

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>>51044864

Haven't played Vayl in Mk 3 yet, but did use Lylyth for a "make-you-own" Journeyman league. The Ravagore is the only weak link if your opponent brought fire immunity so you could swap him for another NBT and 8 points of whatever. Maybe minimum Grot Banshees or Annyssa Ryvaal.

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I only just noticed that Rasheth has nipple tassles.

Something I wish to see for Warjacks is more broad rules that affect them. The change to Grievous Wounds was already a good change, but it just seems that beasts get a lot more rules that stop them or are vulnerable to (anatomical precision, ashen veil among others). Only the Devil Dogs have kept Jack Hunter, which is quite sad.
I'd love to see more stuff that has a bonus versus constructs.

>>51045151
Plenty of stuff does, and Disruption exists.

>>51045453
What's plenty of stuff?
And Disruption is too faction specific (it's mostly cygnar and a bit in ret and maybe mercs), but stuff like Anatomical Precision isn't tied to a specific faction.
I guess Snipe exists too, but that works equally well against beasts and jacks.

>>51044913
Removing on-table options doesn't encourage all comer lists IMO. It just creates another hard counter situation to add to the expanding list of problems modern list building has. And since most of these problems are due to skew it doesn't matter if a small portion of your army can handle it since it won't make a real dent. We currently see this with ARM/box spam, LOS blocking, shooting, and anti-melee so now add in having to counter high DEF and fit it all into two lists. It's possible, but just further building towards every faction having to run those perfect list pairs with all other models being a waste of money and time.

It's worth noting I'm not just picking on DEF and the power attack errata, but the state of the game's high-end in general.

>>51045634
The help I'm seeing is that a lot of the common skews, like high ARM/box spam, aren't so great at dealing with high DEF stuff. Harder to skew while still needing to answer your opponents skew now. The more possible skews there are, the less viable each one becomes.

>>51046194
High DEF stuff is worse at dealing with high ARM stuff than the other way around. High ARM heavies can just boost a headbutt and proceed to stretch your asshole wide open.

>>51044170
Kriel Warriors Standard Bearer has Granted: Rise

>>51036418
I prefer the Inflictor to the Slayer. Its arm 19 def 13 and has reach. You miss out on a tusk attack and one claw is like pow 15 or something.

ITT:
>cmd range measuring was flavorful, pre-measuring is dumbing the game down
>I want to play muh box-spam, so let me throw stuff at DEF 20 casters again
>My warbeast gives me a spell and deals 35 damage in one round, while a Khador Juggernaut only deals 30 and does nothing else. Fucking overpowered warjacks.
>Jacks are overpowered, because their casters can buff them


Laughing at all of you.

http://conflictchamber.com/#bc1bd8d7d7dBd9d9dFdu

Convergence Army - 75 / 75 points

(Axis 1) Axis, the Harmonic Enforcer [+30]
- Cipher [16]
- Cipher [16]
- Corollary [6]
- Inverter [15]
- Inverter [15]
Transfinite Emergence Projector [19]
- Permutation Servitors
Reciprocators (max) [18]

thoughts? I'm thinking of making it a walk-as-a-line situation, where Axis uses his Field Marshal: Countercharge to break enemy lines and defend the TEP while it tears into enemy units. Not sure if I want Recips or Perfs yet though, or if I want to swap it out entirely for a Galvanizer, SSP, and an Optifex unit.

>>51048218
Perfs are terrible, don't use them. Either Eradicators for infantry clear or Recips for armor cracking.

Two Ciphers feels like too many. Swap out for some other stuff, like a Diffuser, some Steelsouls, a Conservator, or even another Inverter.

>>51048218
Needs moar TEP, and btw the point of them with axis isn't just for the counter charge to protect the teps, if you get a good feat with him your enemies heavies can't charge for a turn so you just avoid threat completely while boosting the trip of the tep to 17 (it's pretty guuuud)

>>51045520
and Minions and anyone that can take Eiryss or Thrullg

>>51048092
This is Hordes Greivances General, adopt a suitably mournful tone or take your leave. Laughter and merriment are double forbidden.

>>51049027
/WMG/ is all about whining about Cryx/Hordes now. Maybe because all the tier list isn't: Cryx, [ALL HORDES FACTIONS] and then a smattering of warmachine factions, then Khador. Hordes babies are just crying because they aren't all King Shit of Fuck Mountain anymore.

>>51049704
Look at actual tournament results from MK2, the top were usually Warmachine factions, not Hordes.

>>51049859
I'm looking at mk2 Tournies on DGI right now, and I can say 100% that you are patently false. There are the odd Warmachine factions in there, but the winners at actual events are all either Cryx (because everyone can agree that Cryx was busted) and Hordes.

>>51049917

*different anon, quick check*

You're full of shit, anon.

>>51048783

>thrullg
>relevant to anything, anywhere, ever

>>51050113
>That time it was in every Hordes list as a B&S counter

>>51049917
Let's take a look (going by event order on the last few MK2 events)
Circle Orboros - 9
Legion of Everblight - 7
Skorne - 5
Trollbloods - 5
Minions - 2

28 Hordes

Retribution of Scyrah - 5
Cryx - 10
Protectorate of Menoth - 5
Khador - 8
Convergence of Cyriss - 3
Mercenaries - 2
Cygnar - 10

43 Warmachine

As you can see from the last few MK2 events (going all the way back to just after 2015 world team championship because I didn't feel like continuing) there are way more Warmachine factions at the top.
If you look at the numbers for specific faction wins, the top 5 factions are:
1. Cryx and Cygnar at 10
2. Circle at 9
3. Khador at 8
4. Legion of Everblight at 7
5. Skorne, Trollbloods, Retribution of Scyrah, and Protectorate of Menoth at 5
So, even in this case, 5 Warmachine factions (accounting for 38 wins) and 4 Hordes factions (accounting for 26 wins)

>>51048092

So if there is a special place in hell for people that normalize their warjacks are the new broken arguments to juggernaughts, what do they have left for people that say hordes is making something out of nothing, but reference juggernaughts to make an argument?

>revoke their GD and send them back to 8th-grade math class, you'd figure

>>51050797

I think the Muse guys were on to something when they said it was better when cryx infantry were the king of the hill. Every faction could fight weapon master infantry spam; it sucked that you had to reserve a list and learn how to play it just for that circumstance, but it could be reliably countered by everybody that cared to do it. Had another head-shaking moment over how the fuck am I suppose to fight khador jack spam reliably.

Holy shit, I miss the bane spammers.

>chinaman has viktor/ conquest, man-o-wars, behemoth, madbersekragers, clamjacks, groliaks, oh my.

Gonna be a busy year.

>>51051968
I don't really see the point. I can already buy more models than I can paint. And I don't really have any deep-seated resentment for PP.

>>51050844
Feels like the only way to counter Khador heavy spam is to bring an assassination list.

ITT:
>people who don't go to national competitive events posting stats with no sources.

>>51053308
I went to Warmahordes night, I played against Stryker1, Old Witch, and Jakes. There were six active tables and everyone was playing a fun list. One person was running Cryx, one running Cyriss, and there was even a fully painted SKORNE with gargs.

Game is ded rite? :^)

>>51053662
>le anecdote faec ;^)

>>51041735
>>51042149
Both the Willbreaker and the TyCom are valuable. No arguing that they bring good value for their points. The problem they both have is that Skorne suffers badly from support bloat. They can buff units to insane levels, but you have to invest so many points to do it that you'd be better off just getting more units instead.

>>51049859
>>51049917
The "hordes won everything" claim is wrong, but in any case it's an incomplete picture. If you want to talk about faction power during Mk2, it's basically as follows:
1) Cryx was a power faction for basically the entire edition.
2) Cygnar entered contention early with the release of the Stormwall, and was able to stay near the top of the pack thereafter.
3) Legion was probably the strongest faction at the beginning of Mk2, but started to drop back during the last couple years.
4) Circle maintained a spot near the middle of the group for almost the entire edition, except for the spike in the graph that was Wold War.
5) Menoth hovered around the midddle of the pack for basically the entire edition.
6) Trolls, Khador, and Mercs were all down near the bottom for the first few years, but started to come into their own in the last couple years of the edition (thanks to new releases and theme lists).
7) Cyriss grabbed a spot mid-pack when they were released, and stayed there.
8) Skorne and Minions basically stayed at the bottom for the whole edition, bar a couple small skew-list related popularity spikes.

If we are talking about factions that consistently kicked ass 2010-2015, I'd say it's a pretty even split - Cryx, Legion, Cygnar and Circle. Everybody else spent at least half the edition wallowing in the mud.

>>51053921
>Both the Willbreaker and the TyCom are valuable. No arguing that they bring good value for their points.
>The problem they both have is that Skorne suffers badly from support bloat
They clearly aren't bringing good enough value if you need to bring lots of support. 4 points to hand out Tough on a model that can't even make an attack? If Tough is worth 4 points, then PLEASE strip those 4 points off Nihilators and let me take an 11 point unit of them without it. And like nigger, the TyCom? Really? Besides Rasheth, who actually has a use for it? It was neat in Mk2 because you could get Incindiarii further up the table, or extend Fate Walker distance. 6 points is a lot for a single melee support model in a world of gunlines.

What's the latest story in Mk3?

Khador go through with their invasion plan?

>>51054393
What's their plan? Send Orsus in? That's a pretty good plan.

>>51053662
A fellow Old Witch main, spotted in public? You've seen a fucking unicorn my friend.

>>51054745
The Old Witch is fucking awesome and haters need to...respect? I'm not up to speed on the lingo.

>>51053662

Gargs, plural?

I knew every meta's one skorne player was insane, but that's a new one.

>>51054927
Must've been proxying a Desert Hydra using someone else's Garg.

>>51054052
>Trolls, Khador, and Mercs were all down near the bottom for the first few years,
>Khador
>what's DEF spam, the thing that dominated the early days of MK2

>>51054745
I have a guy that uses Old Witch in my meta as well, she is pretty solid if you want to have a more "tricky" kind of gameplay that forces people to come to you.

All cards and stats can be used online now.

Sauce: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?266853-OFFICIAL-Guidelines-on-Stat-Card-Use-for-WARMACHINE%AE-and-HORDES%AE

Hopefully this will revitalize Battle College. I really liked it during the short time I played mk2 and now having access to it and the real stats right away sounds amazing

>>51056063
Khador was very low tier at the end of Mk2, competing with Skorne for a position on the totem pole.

DEF skew may have been strong early in Mk2, but it quickly lost its luster with the release of battle engines and colossals and the myriad anti-infantry techniques that came along with them. DEF only matters if your opponent has to roll against it.

>>51056218
Read the quote again.
>Trolls, Khador, and Mercs were all down near the bottom for the first few years,
>near the bottom for the first few years,
> for the first few years.
>FIRST few years.

>>51056235
Ok, so the dude made one mistake, what is it going to change? Was Khador mediocre/bad during mk2 or not?

>>51056422
You do however have a chance at an amazing fighting art if you have the right innovations

>>51057257
wrong place! ignore

5 days until the Protectorate book drops and no scans yet? Surely we can do better than that!

>>51057392
The hope is that distributors are getting it today, so maybe later we'll see spoilers

>>51054211
this shit is why people don't take skorne players seriously. he gives out tough to model/unit AND he has puppet master.

>>51057999

YOU CAN ONLY DO ONE.

(different anon)

>>51057999

The shit that nobody *ever* got about skorne no matter how much we tried to pound into your skulls before the entire faction finally spun in and crashed with no survivors was that PP kept giving up conditional buffs on support models and then costed all of our shit as if those buffs were in effect all the damn time. What that meant is that if everything goes right, you have *parity*. We didn't have things with the potential to perform better than their points, we had things with the potential to perform equal to their points. It couldn't go on forever.

>>51059016
I don't play Skorne, but this comment highlights a lot of their problem with costing models.

I do play Trolls, and we suffer from this also (albeit to a much lesser degree)

I'm having trouble /tg/...

It used to be my group played at a regular basis, at least every Saturday! We started out Warmahordes when mk2 hit the grid, mostly due to the fact that our "main guy", the dude who usually took upon himself the role of leader (gm for years upon years in our youth for instance) bought a lot of the internet´s complaints on 40k (no matter your opinion, its not the essential of the post, just a side note).

Well, we all enjoyed it like crazy. Played more miniature wargames than ever before. Hell, I even painted my first fully painted army with the warmahordes system I thought it was so great (to be fair, you can never really be "finished" painting GW... theres always to much to paint!).
So anyway, we had a blast. And though never admitting to playing WAAC, our main guy always strode towards the teams with a high win factor. He had Cryx (which he repeatedly mentioned he hated the models fore... so he didn't play them enough), he played Orboros and so on. But when the mk3 came, and Cryx got the nerf bat and privateer press finally admitting "well, its obvious Fury is better than Focus" and switched the power scale on just about all things Fury driven (including animus), our guy just quit... Well, not all openly, he just gradually stopped playing the game. And with him, 2-3 other guys quit, and with those guys a couple others. Now its just me and one other guy, who has a hard time to get games together.

I just feel like its so bad. What should I do? Hell, I have even tried to buy of some of his models/teams for a fair price, giving him the option to start over. But no... Is there ever going to be a way in to the game for me again?

>>51059136
The Protectorate choir tax is also still in effect (although there's no real reason to complain here)

>>51059640
Was that the only group in your area? Have you checked Facebook or looked for the Pressganger (the dude that organizes stuff) of your region?

>>51059677

I think protectorate is alright though. Even with having to buy Choir, we have some really cheap but effective jacks. The Reckoner is still pretty good for it's cost and we have 10 point Crusaders. Most of Menoths jacks are pretty fairly costed honestly.

Skorne however has exactly the same problem, they have to take paingivers (who are more expensive) BUT their beasts are also fairly expensive in a world where, beasts lost power and jacks got better. This hurts doubly when you consider that Skorne is a very beast reliant faction AND a lot of their beasts ate weird nerfs in the MK3 transition.

I really think that a lot of beasts across all factions need a 1 to 2 point reduction and maybe some of the cheaper heavy jacks need a 1 or 2 point increase.

Does anyone remember the long-ago summer of 2016 when we were all skreeonking merrily, unaware of what was to come?

>>51060036

The only real complaints I have are Skorne being shit and Cryx being under tuned.

Everything else is still better than the end of MK2.

I was digging through my storage, and realised that I have two unopened stone keepers in addition to the painted one I already have. Is there any reason to hold onto them, or is it safe to get rid of them?

Haven't played in ages. Did Mk3 give Menoth any major changes? Who do I need new stat cards for?

>>51060665
All cards changed in mk3. PoM is in good shape. Amon and High Reclaimer are S-tier, K1, K3, Sevvy1, Sevvy2, and Reznik2 are all S-tier. Idrians are awesome now.

>>51033516
What about my 60 man Kreoss2, I'd drop into 60 cryx guys and ill win.

>>51060713
Er, that should be Amon/HR at S tier, the rest at A tier.

>>51060898
As of this moment there's no Crusaders of Sul theme, and with the points changes, you'd be hard pressed to get 60 guys anymore. You're required to take more jacks.

>>51059911
>>I really think that a lot of beasts across all factions need a 1 to 2 point reduction and maybe some of the cheaper heavy jacks need a 1 or 2 point increase.
Why the stupid double buff&nerf though? Just decrease beast cost first, watch how it pans out and then consider general cost increases for jacks (except for stuff like gun bunnies, they can definitely get nerfed tho)

>>51061050
That was talking about mk2. I haven't been able to play any mk3

Anyone have a pdf of the troll command book?

>>51056422
Pretty much yes.Somehow the faction that seemed designed around being slow and tough was instead the faction of speedy ninja dudes. Unless you abused DEF, Khador was pretty shit.

>>51061489
There's almost nothing in it. We've seen Madrak3, Horgle2, Sea King and both theme forces already. Fluff is kinda just there.

>>51060107

Tell that to 2/3rds of the models in the game.Every single faction is basically riding on a handful of casters, beast/jacks, and units while the rest have been rendered garbage or just outclassed by better options. If you already own or liked those models, great, otherwise you're stuck having to buy new ones or be subpar while hoping PP fixes them (unlikely).

>>51062218
I kinda wish PP finally learned how to design factions.

You don't have two models in a faction where one is just strictly better than the other at the same things. And yet they do that in every fucking faction. Every faction has the problem of "why would I ever take X when Y does the same thing better?"

Make models more unique, for fucks sake. As long as every model doesn't bring something unique to the table you'll always end up with factions that are 2/3rds crap.

>>51062346
Even if units have a different purpose, the one that's generally better is going to be the better unit to bring most of the time. Sure Keltarii are designed to be hard to shoot until your opponent realises he can just CRA and delete them but even once they get in, they're only MAT6 with a relatively weak weapon. They don't stand a chance against Invictors, the very kind of unit they should be murdering. So why not just bring Nihilators/Karax? Or better yet, fuck infantry and bring another Gladiator.

>>51060963
Amon is honestly retarded. Mobility is one of the best spells in the game, Synergy is one of the best spells in the game. So how about we staple them onto a caster that's got a bunch of decent spells besides that and a solid warjack feat?

>>51062538
Why is noone crying for nerfs to him then?

>>51062565
Because every faction has to have that one autoinclude caster. Even Skorne has Rasheth.

>>51062112
Khador's never been a slow faction.

Khador was the infantry focus faction, and a huge part of their issue in Mk2 was that every anti-cryx list tended to ruin Khador as well, and Khador only really having a single tactic(infantry support) for a long ass time.

>>51062538
Some people have been, but he was overshadowed by HR. Personally, I would love for every caster to be two great spells, a few more good spells and a great feat rather than the glut of casters with mediocre everything.

>>51062674
>Morghoul2 has Flashing Blade, Ghostly, and a single target nuke that needs to deal damage to have an effect
Some casters would love to have one mediocre spell.

>>51062596
This is true. Khador has always been able to create impressive speed, mostly in their jacks, but they just never seemed like a faction that should have been defined by Kayazy or whatever. Winterguard with Joe were about as close "Khador" as it got and being good while IFP and Man-o-Wars were terrible for the most part in Mk. 2. Black Dragons and the IFP solo helped near the end at least and MoWs are decent in Mk3, but that's also due to the faction finally being allowed to have good ARM.

>>51062584
>Rasheth
>anywhere near auto-include
Oh, it's meme-anon again.

PoM Player here,
Out of the following jacks where would you rank them? Using the S-F tiers.

Avatar, Reckoner, Templar, Crusader, Vanquisher, Revenger, Devout, Vigilant, Repenter,

if it matters, my casters are PSevy, EKreoss, PReznik, and Anson

I Know my KEE got hit with NERFbat and Choir, Vassal, The Book are still pretty much staples, I'm just not sure about what jacks to use and with who.

>>51062931
A
Reckoner, Templar
B
Crusader, Devout, Vigilant
C
Revenger with some bits slapped on so you can call it Blessing of Vengeance for Sevvy
D-
Repenter, Vanquisher, Avatar

>>51062931
I don't really like using grades, but the Avatar is pretty okay with Severious1 and Kreoss3 and Thyra. Reckoner is okay with everyone, flare is nice. Templar is an okay shieldguard. Crusader is a great cheap beatstick. Vanquisher isn't really worth its 17 pts, two Sunbursts are better and 7 pts cheaper. Revenger is okay, but you can pay 5 more points for the Guardian, who's awesome. Devout is okay, sevvy doesn't need him. Vigilant is cool, every caster in danger of being shot likes it. Repenter is hot garbage.

>>51063211
>>51063198
I feel like the Avatar is just way to expensive to be justified in taking, IS that why he's not nearly as good as he was in mk2?

>>51063593
Random Focus, his jackpoints not coming from your caster, Power Up favoring battle groups with more models and the awesomeness that is Scourge of Heresy make him rather undesirable

>>51063593
He's still good, and the random focus can be mitigated by vassals, but he wants a caster that doesn't need him in the battlegroup. A lot of our casters have field marshals or battlegroup only spells so don't want to take him. Harbinger, Sevvy 1, Kreoss3 and Thyra are probably the only ones who could want him, and still despite that being forced to take 2-3 jacks on top of that usually pushes him out.

>>51061076

Because, to be completely fair, some factions have undercosted heavies.

Khador in particular has some really cheap shit that actually should cost a bit more.

>>51064598
Hey, quick question about army lists in very low point games.

A friend of mine is trying to get into Legion. He has the battlebox for them. Its a Bolt Thrower, a Neraph, 2 shredders, and Thrysaa; Conviction of Everblight.

The list I've been playing while I get into warmachine has been a small smattering of Khador, but when I played against him I went
Kommander Sorcha, Destroyer, Juggernaut, War Dog.

I'm pretty sure I technically cheated, but it looked to me like a fairly fair matchup. I ended up winning, and neither of us played our best, but I certainly felt in control of the game the whole time.

Am I worrying about bullshit that aint there?; or am I That Guying my friend by playing best faction and stomping?

>>51065536
Just play with mk2 rules and cards and get assclapped

>>51065536
Well, it looks like you were playing 3 points up on him, so that's something.

>>51065536

If you're new to the game, it's not particularly a big deal anyway. The battle box level games are typically a crap shoot anyway. Once you guys get some more models and figure out the game a bit better, it should even out a bit more.

Legion does have a bit of a handicap simply because their Battlebox caster is pretty bad.

Yeah, Khador is technically one of the better factions out there right now but that really matters more to higher level play than the average player. The only really "handicapped" factions right now are Cryx and Skorne but both can still be played effectively. They just really struggle in higher end play because of being under tuned for the new edition.

Legion might be a bit worse off but they still have a lot of good stuff. Don't feel to bad about winning your games, odds are once your friend gets a Hellmouth and figures out some of his armies stuff, he will be giving you some grief.

>>51066034
I was down Warjack Points. 3 point dog vs. 3 unused warjack points to his 0 unused points. Unless we were wrong there.

I honestly just love the dog model. But it was something I was worried about. Sorta putting a big block in front of the win condition for him. Cause fighting 2 Khador Jacks seemed like a bad idea given his models.

>>51066208

Yeah, I don't quite understand the Legion box. Even with Kryssa's feat, the Neraph only goes up to P+S 18. The best option you have is assassination by feat/ Quickness threat extension. Otherwise they aren't going to do well against anything really beefy (I.E. most other heavies).

Legions has way better heavies and ways to crack armor.

File: 12512.jpg (19KB, 320x299px) Image search: [Google]

19KB, 320x299px

>>51025451

Holy fuck, can that art BE more generic?

It's actually sickening. That's not a good first impression for the franchise.

>>51066411
What are you, an art critic? It looks fine. Except for Kaya's weird spear.

>>51066039
Making a battlebox lock have continuous fire are part of her gimmick is a pretty terrible idea. the Protectorate caster is only moderately better since at least the damage gets upped by his feat.

>>51068333
I actually saw that and thought it was kinda neat for a win or die assassination run. bought attacks autohitting sounds nice on paper to me. but im new.

Course I liked the Neraph. I imagine it like a woodpecker pounding a warjack to slag with its tail wrapped around it for auto hits.