Tyranid thread

anon in the other thread brought up something interesting, that almost every other faction gets some special rule that allows them to disregard or alter a key part of the game mechanics, whilst nids special rules actively punish them. I'd start with removing that. Perhaps incorporate some sort of 'without number' rule into a decurion style formation? Lots of simple tweaks are available, such as fixing Warriors and ensuring Tervigons don't nuke half your bugs when they die, but to actually make them decent and get rid of the underlying problems they've got to have some special 'thing' that doesn't hurt them.

All the models that are currently out should be put in the codex. (neurothrope, tyranocite, etc.)
We should be able to have 2+ armor and have stuff to deal with it effectively. Lots of things need to have their points values looked at. And increased toughness would be great all around.

>>50957355
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Codex_-_Tyranids:_/tg/_edition

>>50957355
Fighting against tyranids should feel like being overwhelmed.
I think at least one archetype of tyranids army should be able to produce lot of models.The opponent having to shut down your producing units quickly or be overwhelmed, forcing him to the offensive.
So fix Tervigons, add spawning pit or tunnels as fortifications, 'without number' rules here and there.
However it need synapse/instinctive behaviour to stay in some form, as a trade-off : you get free troops but may start losing control over them. Remove the 'eat himself' part, instinctive behaviours should make your troops dumb and predictable, nothing more.
It's also need a lot of models, shareholders will be happy.

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>>50957392
Nid baseline units like Rippers and all types of gaunts, including Gargoles should have "without number" by default, if they take no upgrades.
The biomorph upgrade system should be reverted back to 4th edition. All the upgrade bits in the old sprues should have rules again.

Tyranid Warriors should be toughness 5 and armor save 4+ that can be upgraded to 3+.
They also should get an upgrade that grants them Fleet of Claw.

Aso, in regards of Tyranid weapons, some should be tweaked.
Venom Cannons are fluff wise biological railguns that shoot venom crystals at incredible speeds.
Their rules don't reflect that.

Heavy venom cannons should be S 9 Ap 3 Salvo 2/4, while basic Venom Cannon should be S6 Ap 4 Assault 2

In general, the Nids should be made to be the most versatile and adaptive army of the game, like their 3rd and 4th edition versions were meant to be.

As for new units, I dunno, but I think that Hive Guards should be given an upgrade that grants them skyfire, so that Nids would have some land based Anti Air. I mean, these fucks don't even have eyes and they track their targets from the senses of other nids. There is no reason their guns should have harder time hitting flying targets when they can already home in on targets the Hive Guards don't even have a line of sight towards.

GW understand that tyranids are pretty shit atm, as you can see by how they made genestealers so much better in the cult book for the same cost.

pretty sure they will get round to nids eventually and bring them up to par

Genestealers just need to be replaced with pure strains, with shrouded until they shoot or charge instead of cult ambush.

Going against the grain here, but I for one do NOT want the return of massed biomorphs. Variable stalines for every creature and weapons just made using the codex a tedious exercise in bookkeeping. When preparing to play a game you basically had to write out every unit's stats out in full, thus defeating the point of having a fucking codex with all the rules in in the first place.

>>50957698
I agree on the variable stat stuff.
That shouldn't be brought back.
But the multitude of biomorph upgrades that granted special rules, and some of which even altered some stats of the units, should be brought back.

>>50957668

genestealers just need to be removed at this point and gsc be made battle brothers.

>>50957355
Swarmlord was a mistake, it should be removed.

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>>50957355

They need a godzilla tier nigga that is intelligent and can speak English

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>>50957781
>genestealers just need to be removed at this point and gsc be made battle brothers.
why remove something when we can expand, divide and apecialise?

hive fleet stealers
>genestealers
>genestealer warriors (larger-see space hulk deathwing)
>mutant genestealers (ymgarl's genes derived)
>specialised broods (with biomorphs and stable adaptations)
>broodlord

genecult stealers
>genestealers
>princelings (genestealers from the original brood of the patriarch that also grow in physical and psychic power)
>equipped sealers (genestealers receiving biomorph-like blessings grown from the patriarch bio-throne and other trinkets from the cultists)
>advent/eve sons (particularly blessed stealers born under the focus of the hive fleet nearing the planet, possess stable mutations, stronger connection with the hive mind and relay it to the broodmind)
>patriarch

>>50957355
>Should they get new units, and if so, what sort of units?
we need expanded infantry options
too many different big gribbles nowadays compared to the little choices in infantry

>>50957355
>What should be done to fix their crippled dex?

All middleweight creatures go up to T5. Warriors and Raveners also go up to St5.

Add a new army-wide special rule; "Rapacious Advance", which allows models to run and charge in the same turn.

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>>50957355
While I don't play 'nids myself, I play against them on a semi-regular basis. From what I've seen, they could use a Decurion (or at least more formations) and, like >>50957473 said, they should be able to field fucktons of models. Lower the points cost of most of their units (who are frankly over-priced anyway). and add formations that let you bring free or respawning gaunts/ripper swarms, or make Tervigons so they never stop producing Gaunts, things like that. Something like pic related would honestly be perfect for nids.

>>50958173
What middle weight creatures do they even have outside of Warriors and Raveners?
Most of the nid units are either tiny buggers, or giant monsters.

>>50957494
>In general, the Nids should be made to be the most versatile and adaptive army of the game
I like this.

>>50957562
Supposedly every army's going to be getting something in 2017, keep your fingers crossed and pray to the four-armed emperor.

>>50957781
>genestealers just need to be removed at this point and gsc be made battle brothers.
Genestealers are used as shock troops in a standard Tyranid invasion; it's not like they don't exist outside of GSC or something.

>>50958041
I like this.

>>50958173
Middleweight creatures do need to be buffed, but I'm not sure about army-wide Run-Charge. Maybe make that an upgrade, such as Adrenal Glands?

>>50958674
I like this.

>>50958679
>What middle weight creatures do they even have outside of Warriors and Raveners?

Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, Biovores, Pyrovores, Lictors. There's Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard as well, but I don't think they need their profiles altered.

> but I'm not sure about army-wide Run-Charge

I don't understand this. Assault in 40k is fucked. Shooting armies have gradually become capable of throwing out more and more firepower, while assault has been crippled by specific nerfs (no assaulting out transports, overwatch, etc) and hampered further by other changes (directional casualty removal, making it harder to close the distance). But as soon as someone makes a suggestion which would meaningfully help redress this balance, people immediately start backing off and claiming it'll be too much. It feels like they only want a few token changes that won't actually make it easier for melee armies to...you know, get into melee.

Yes, Assault was overpowered in 3rd and 4th edition. But the pendulum has swung so far back in the other direction, shooting is now even more overpowered than assault ever was. Something needs to change if we want to make armies like Orks and Tyranids viable again, and that means looking seriously at concepts which would have broken the game in half back in the earlier editions.

>>50959019
Also; there's a limit to how much you can reduce a model's points before collecting the army simply becomes stupidly impractical. Termagants are 4 and Hormagaunts 5 points; two 30-strong broods of each is 540 points. That's about a third to a quarter of your army and it's 120 models. Being able to bring MORE units doesn't help, because past a certain point your models end up blocking each others movements, are forced to deploy so deep in your deployment zone they'll struggle to get close enough to do anything, and still have to contend with all the problems footslogging melee units do. Quantity over quality is a valid theme, but these units still need to be good enough to fulfill their roles on the tabletop.

And then you've got the actual cost of buying so many models, the difficulty of transporting them, and so on and so on. Just making things cheaper isn't a solution.

Bring back Without Number. Any unit that has Without Number ignores the effect of overwatch.

Make Synapse give actual benefits to the creatures that are within its range, and make the penalties of being without it less terrible.

Make Warriors usable.

>>50959019
I don't have a problem with run-charge, I'm just saying it should replace the Fleet part of Adrenal Glands or something similar. Because otherwise, you could very easily field an army where everyone has both Fleet and Run-Charge, which would be absurd.

I don't think Assault armies problems in 7e come from the edition's rules, but that the Codices for assault-oriented armies are just bad right now, and vice versa for shooty armies. Just compare the points cost of Tyranid and Ork units/upgrades to other army's equivalents. Not to mention that both armies have weapons/psychic powers/warlord traits which are rarely useful and sometimes dangerous to their own side, which is something else that most other armies don't have to deal with. The lack of formations doesn't help either.

>>50959102
So give them free reinforcements or something, like >>50958674 said. It's a way of buffing the army's numbers without actually increasing the number of models in play.

Fluffwise, exactly how good is tyranidadaptation? it seems pretty shit since they're still being taken out by the same weapons and tactics as before

>>50959562
In old fluff, it was somewhere between great and god-tier depending on which hive fleet it was. Tyranids were a swiss army knife of destruction.

Modern "can't learn from anything" stories are just Cruddace bullshit, and part of the problem with Nid dexes in general. They're the only codex that has their faction lose over and over and over in their own book.

>>50959595
Have you read the shield of baal campaign? the tyranids are adapting faster than ever before, to the point where gorgons adaptation was pretty standard

>>50959623
This was the book that finally made Tyranids scary again for me.

>>50957355
Make all gaunts beasts and give them acess to psychic powers again.

>>50959595
Is it true that Cruddace hates Nids because he got shitstomped by them in a tourney?

adaptation is great and all, but you can't really adapt to getting shot in the face with lasers

>>50957355
>Should they get new units, and if so, what sort of units?
The fuck? The last thing they need is more unit bloat, the Codex already has like half a dozen more than it ever fucking needed.

It needs an overhaul from the ground up that redesigns the core units to actually function the way they are intended in the fluff.

It needs rules for tyrannoformation the same way daemons have a warp storm table to represent Tyranids always fighting on a homefield advantage.

It needs a proper Hive Fleet Decurion with Formations that aren't complete ass.

It needs Warrior sized bugs being brought up to S/T 5 like they deserve. It needs small-sized bugs with built-in WON. It needs large-sized bugs with built-in IWND and access to tons of biomorphs again. It needs biomorphs out the ass for everything actually - we're talking the race that is supposed to be the most customizable in the game by original definition. Where are my leaping Warriors with blinding venom, where are my thornback and death beetle Carnifexes from 4e? Where are all my options for Genestealers still in the kit like acid maw and flesh hooks and implant attack?

Why don't Trygons have an invuln save from their electric field?? Why is their tunnel rule so utterly shit? Why is the WS so low on all these assault creatures that were originally designed with very high WS? Why don't Tyrant Guard have Feel No Pain when they're literally just born to eat fucking bullets to the face? Why can't Lictors charge immediately when they've been lying in wait for days for the perfect moment to strike? Why isn't there a new rule for Living Ammo?

I've got more too.

>>50959741
Yes. His armoured list got wrecked by Carnifexes.

>>50959769
How about proper representation of Synapse being not just fearless but the fact that it means all Tyranids are operating as a single being? Like one Tyranid in synapse having LoS to a target should mean all Tyranids have LoS to that target, if a Tyranid in synapse is charged all Tyranids in synapse range within 12" should be able to counter-charge, if a synapse creature is shot at and standing within 2" of ANY friendly instinctive behaviour creature it should be able to Look Out Sir, all synapse creatures should be psykers and they should have multiple unique psychic tables like the Eldar book, Shadow in the Warp should actually fucking DO something and should be one of the most feared anti-psyker abilities in the game (and it should be global, not locked to synapse range).

Onslaught should be changed to be the Psychic Stimulus power in Broodmind, Catalyst should grant the unit the Death Frenzy rule that Wulfen have, The Horror should give the unit -2 leadership AND force a pinning check AND make them treat all Tyranids as having Fear, not just take one pinning check at -2.

Individual Hive Fleets should get rules like Traitor Legions that restrict your build options but add tons of flavorful buffs on top.

Oh, and all the fluffrape special characters like Swarmlord need to be fucking deleted forever. I should be able to just build a Swarmlord out of the Hive Tyrant page if I want.

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>>50959642
>This was the book that finally made Tyranids scary again for me.
I loved the scene with the psychic wave of nids
particularly the valkyrie one

>>50959841
>Oh, and all the fluffrape special characters like Swarmlord need to be fucking deleted forever. I should be able to just build a Swarmlord out of the Hive Tyrant page if I want.
What if Tyranid special characters just become upgrades you can give to units rather than standing on their own? Like one Hive Tyrant in your army can be upgraded to the Swarmlord?

These are good ideas though, I especially like the idea of Hive Fleets having Chapter Tactics-esque rules. Keep 'em coming.

>>50959868
I loved the entire SoB arc with the PTSD canoness having to deal with a lictor.

>>50958770
>I'm not sure about army-wide Run-Charge. Maybe make that an upgrade, such as Adrenal Glands?
Everything that could sprint could do this once. Often with a 12" charge range. Stop being a pussy.

>>50959958
>Everything that could sprint could do this once. Often with a 12" charge range.
When? Random charge distances were introduced in 6th edition, which is when Fleet was changed from Run-Charge to it's current iteration.

>>50959404
>where everyone has both Fleet and Run-Charge, which would be absurd.

Why? Fleet lets you re-roll the dice to Run OR Charge, not both. All the re-roll really lets you do is nullify duff results or have a go at very long charges in desperate situations, and in the latter case, you still suffer Overwatch fire and have a below average chance of pulling it off.

>>50959562
Fluffwise good enough to be immune against lances in space battle after 3 days of fighting.

In short think Necrons, but with organic tech instad of anorganic tech.

>>50959769
>Why isn't there a new rule for Living Ammo?

Fleshborers and Devourers (including their variants) get Shred, but half their Strength vs Vehicles. Gives Termagants a nice buff, actually letting them hurt things instead of just being a shitty tarpit blob, and ensures Brainleech Devourers aren't the default 'why wouldn't you pick this?' upgrade for Monstrous Creatures.

Note that this should come hand-in-hand with a buff to Venom Cannons to pick up the slack in the anti-tank department. St7 AP4 Assault 2 for the regular one and St9 AP4 Assault 3 for the Monstrous Creature-sized version.

>>50959741
Half, his coauthor wrote the 4th edition Nid codex and thought he made them too strong.

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>>50959990
>Fleet lets you re-roll the dice to Run OR Charge, not both.
Not unless that got FAQ'd. The rule states that you can re-roll one or more dice for Run AND Charge moves, not either or.

>>50960021
I'd really like to see venom cannons become meta. I like twin linked devourers but, damn it's the only option on most big bugs

>>50959981
Up until the 4th edition. Hormagaunts could move up to 24" in one round: moving 6", sprint d6, charge 12".
Warriors, too if upgraded with leap.
Rough Riders of the IG could pull this too.

Lictors deepstriked into cover and could attack in the same round. Representing their insane infiltration skills.

Carnifexes could have up to T7 W5 and a 2+ save. (Sadly they were still worse than a phantom lord for half their points)

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Nids need a GMC on their codex seems like most other factions either have one or can ally one in easily.

They have nothing truly fuck huge outside of Forgeworld.

>>50960147
Everything with 6 Wounds should be Gargantuan.

>>50959981
Were you seriously not around for Leaping?

>>50960271
Nope, I got into 40k in 5th edition.

>>50960129
>Hormagaunts could move up to 24" in one round: moving 6", sprint d6, charge 12".

And the funny thing is that Hormagaunts were still considered to be a pretty garbage unit back then as well. They were a fast tarpit, but so horrible at causing damage anything worth tarpitting would chew them up in short order.

>>50957355
I think a new game mechanic should be introduced that Tyranids can benefit the most from.

Effectively a mixed unit with a large creature and small creatures fighting together in an optimized form.

Astra Militarum (Guardsmen/Sentinels), Eldar (Guardians/War Walkers), and others could also benefit from the mechanic, but the Tyranids would use it most effectively.

>>50960147
>They have nothing truly fuck huge outside of Forgeworld.
The new models are actually starting to eclipse the Hierodules in size....

>>50957355

Change how they work fundamentally.
You get 3 unit types. Synapse emitter. Synapse recipient. Non-synapse.

Synapse now extends 12 inches from creature with rule.

Synapse applies FnP. Any creature within 12 inches gets a FNP on a 6. Any creature within 6 inches gets FNP on a 5-6. Any creature within the same melee get it on a 4-6. This offsets the insanely poor armour 90% of units get without giving them obscenely tanky.

Synapse also confers automatic morale passes on ANY phase where the amount of wounds applied before FnP is lower than the combined synapse of all creatures in range.

That means if you have 3 Warriors as a centre piece rocking 30 combined leadership then you need 31 wounds to force a morale check with no modifiers.

Also need a new rule to allow the 'tactical' side of the Hivemind like 'only the first unit that runs into an Overwatch will trigger the effect' which means a smart player will barge something like a small unit of Gaunts into the combined Overwatch of bunch of units before throwing in his assault units. Obviously this has drawbacks due to the synapse morale rule but it also allows what is normally a fairly assault heavy army with low armour to achieve their key objective.

Also allow Warriors to be taken as 'sergeants' for any small creature unit. This would allow a guaranteed synapse range for alot of creatures.

Other than that it's just a case of Nids being behind in units/cost but hey ho.

>>50960710
>but the Tyranids would use it most effectively.

It would also destroy a lot of their mechanical flavour. The Synapse/IB rules are riddled with problems at the moment, but the interactions between them are supposed to be core to the way the army plays. Being able to shove a Tyranid Warrior into every unit basically just makes the whole army Fearless.

Like I get that this segment of their rules needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, but that doesn't mean it should just be thrown out.

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>>50957355
Honestly? Nah. Nidfags and Chaosfags both deserve their shitty rules, in turn for being "MUH ULTIMATE BBEG FACTION" in the lore. I don't shed a single tear for the faction as a whole. Heck, I own Tyranid mini's, but I still dont give a hoot, despite them being some of their best miniatures in their entire range.

By virture of existing, both Chaos and Tyranids diminish the overall impact of the setting. They make every struggle worthless and pointless, and add nothing, especially with their gloating about "Muh 12 galaxies" or their "We outnumber Orkz" schpeel. They act so fucking arrogant and constantly go on and on about how the Galaxy is fucked, and how nobody can stop them, and how they are super adaptive, and are basically the BEST faction in the whoke galaxy, and how they even beat Chaos.

So yeah, I can honestly say that every time they get shat in the fluff, I feel no remorse or pity. Serves them right for being a "Unending tide of flesh and bone that will devour the entire galaxy."

>>50961241
t. Cruddace the Supreme Faggot

>>50961241
>the best way to represent incredibly strong factions is to make them incredibly weak
>it makes better storytelling!

>>50961261
Call me what ever you want, but the Guard is a million times more intresting and colorful than space cockroaches whose only intresting facet is their adaptability.

>>50961269
That's not even my problem with the nids. Its that the Tyranids are far too strong a faction in the fluff, and encourages faggots to go "Y-You may have b-beat me, but in like, uh, 100 years, the main fleet will come and eat you all up! 12 GALAXIES MUTHA FUCKAS". Until.they fix the lore, Tyranids deserve their shitty rules.

>>50961315
>somebody was a fag to me one time
>now I must be a fag forever too, out of spite
This is not a sustainable solution, anon.

>>50961315
That's not the point dumbass, the point is having an army on par with the others, like you would have for any game. We're not discussing changing fluff.

>>50961315
>space cockroaches
You clearly don't understand the concept of Tyranids.

>>50961315
>but the Guard is a million times more intresting and colorful than space cockroaches whose only intresting facet is their adaptability
What makes you think your one bad opinion means shit?

Tyranids have more devoted fans than most Factions in 40k, they certainly sell more than Guard do.

>>50961241
What kind of dumbass thinks fans of a faction deserve to be punished because of how GW writes the end game?

>hurrr you think space dinosaur bugs are cool, therefore you should have to waste money on a useless army

Its a wargame, there is no excuse for unbalanced armies. Anybody who even tries to justify it is an idiot, a spiteful child or a GW employee.

Increase armor saves and toughness. Simple really.

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>>50961241

>>50957355
nids were fucked to death not by their codex.
they were fucked by the basic rules.
their codex was fine in 4th
then later editions of the main ruels came out and RUINED everything that nids did.
fleet
multiple combats
swarming
charging

all you gotta do is add back the stuff that the main rules took away. then they will be ok again

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why does GW refuse to make warriors a functional part of the army? its been what.... almost 20 years since warriors have been fieldable.

why cant they give warriors eternal warrior? thats all they need to be good. thats it. all nids used to have eternal warrior anyway. its super fluffy too, who doesnt want to see nids blown in half but still crawling toward the enemy trying to kill them.

dumb. GW is dumb. their employees are intentionally dumb and retarded

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>>50961241
this must be that necron faggot. you really are pathetic dude.

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>>50957355
A better question OP, is how can they be defeated?

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How could they make Old One Eye decent again? keep in mind no drastic changes will be given to him, just slight tweaks.

His biggest problem is wasting a HQ slot, and then being expensive and kind of shit.

>Scrap the Warlord trait
>Just make him a Heavy support
>Or better yet, upgrade Carnifex like RT
>Return his 2+ save
>1+ wound and weapon skill
>FNP as standard
>Leadership 10
>Add fleet
>Same Points cost.

I'd kill for this. it wouldn't even be very good but god it would make him not just painfully shit.

Thoughts?

>>50961729
>nids were fucked to death not by their codex
I'm assuming you haven't actually read any of the post 5e nids codexes.

>>50962046
Agreed. OOE should just be the most indestructible distraction carnifex of all time.

>>50962046
Honestly I'm not a big fan of Nid special characters period. Old One Eye is cool, but there's no real reason for him to be a playable model rather than just a cool-ass story in the codex. Characters take away from the whole endless-swarms-into-infinity thing, and they tend to promote shitty writing, like Swarmlord or Draigo etc.

I'd be much happier with customizable Fexes so I could craft my own tankbot rather than having to pick a premade one.

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>>50961241
>They make every struggle worthless and pointless
That's the point, you dolt. None of the other factions matter because they'll ultimately lose. Meanwhile, Chaos is inherently self-defeating, while the Nids are unsustainable because more biomass requires more biomass and they have to run out of galaxies to eat eventually.

>>50962226
>I'd be much happier with customizable Fexes so I could craft my own tankbot rather than having to pick a premade one.


True, but Gw like characters, or selling them.

I'm just beng real, we ain't seeing the custom fex again i don't think

>>50962258
Biomass doesn't require biomass.

>>50961241
>every struggle worthless and pointless
No fucking shit, Sherlock. That's the whole point of 40k...

I know this is most likely bait, but I have meet people who seriously don't understand this

>>50961778
They don't even need EW they just need Toughness 5 and the ability to Look Out Sir on gaunts.

It makes zero sense that fucking OGRYNS can be T5 but Tyranid Warriors cannot.

>>50962423
How do you figure?

>>50962457
Has the Earth's ecosystem ceased functioning due to not receiving more biomass from an outside source (disregarding the globally irrelevant amounts deposited by meteorites) over billions of years? No?

Then why would a Hive Fleet?

>>50961778
They were fieldable in the 4th edition codex. There every synapse creature had eternal warrior without the fancy name.
They could not get instantgib'd.

>>50962442
>they just need Toughness 5 and the ability to Look Out Sir on gaunts.
Not really. Like he said, they would be perfect the way they are if they had something to protect them from ID

>>50962569
Yes, it's called Toughness 5. Protects against ID from everything except S10 and special weapons that specifically have ID, against which mooks like Warriors should NOT be protected. EW is for legendary heroes.

Besides, Warriors should be tougher than Genestealers, they're twice the damn size.

>>50960453
Aye, their only job was using their speed to force some of the enemy gunline into close combat.

If you wanted to kill shit with troops you used Genestealers, if you wanted to swarm/tarpit you went with the other gaunt derivates.

>>50962587
>Yes, it's called Toughness 5
Which would be a buff to a unit that doesn't need it when there are options like EW out there

>>50962587
Except that the EW variant Nids had in 4th also protected them from s10 and force weapons, but didn't make them super-resistant to small arms fire the same way T5 does.

>>50962645
EW is not an option for a basic Troop. Contextually it is used on legendary and heroic individuals just like contextually FnP (6+) tends to represent specific things, like bionics, rather than just giving Skitarii and Iron Hands more Toughness instead.

>>50962657
And yet Warriors being vulnerable to S10 and Force weapons but more resilient to small arms makes more sense for them.

Again, Ogryns are Toughness 5 and Genestealers are Toughness 4. Warriors should not be less tough than Ogryns by any stretch of the imagination and they should clearly be more tough than Genestealers which they share biology with but tower over because they are scaled up.

>>50962615
In 2e this wasn't the intention. Hormagaunts were supposed to kill other equivalent troops in combat and tarpit elite forces, Genestealers were supposed to kill elite forces. There was a whole tactics section that said things like "don't charge basic space marines with your 16 point Genestealers because it's a waste when you can slaughter them with 8 point Hormagaunts instead."

>>50960107
>>50960021
give fleshborer hive rending!

>>50962705
>Contextually it is used on legendary and heroic individuals
C'mon anon, don't be gay like that. EW would fix them cleanly and with no effort

>>50962705
I'm perfectly fine with the Hive Mind nope-ing force weapons, because that's what the Shadow in the Warp DOES. I'd also be fine with T4 Warriors instead of T5 ones, provided they had the ability to get a decent armor save and weren't overcosted, because they're still going to have 2+ wounds. The point value of warriors is part of their problem, even in 4e, because they seem to get a "synapse tax" placed on them that a number of other synapse-generating units don't have to worry about. If you wanted to give them flying it was even worse.

I would be perfectly happy with larger squads of less-elite Warriors, or smaller squads of more-elite Warriors, so long as they're costed appropriately.

>>50962800
The easy fix and the correct fix are not always the same thing.

You could also fix them by cutting their points cost in half, but it isn't correct.

There are unwritten conventions that dictate where and how special rules are used to represent things. Eternal Warrior is not something that can be thrown around willy-nilly, it's usually reserved for one-per-army Relics, Lords of War and unique hero Characters.

Toughness 5 on the other hand doesn't only fix the problem but it also is something that feels lacking just from a fluff perspective. It is actually the cleaner solution, you're just stuck on trying to go with something that had written precedent in 4th. And yet, T5 had written precedent in 2nd.

>>50962844
>I'm perfectly fine with the Hive Mind nope-ing force weapons, because that's what the Shadow in the Warp DOES.
It should do this by virtue of making the psychic power more difficult to manifest, not by granting blanket immunity to Instant Death including forms of ID not caused by psychic powers.

>The point value of warriors is part of their problem, even in 4e, because they seem to get a "synapse tax" placed on them that a number of other synapse-generating units don't have to worry about.
In 4e they were actually quite cheap at 14 points base, it was just that the upgrades tended to make them expensive if you piled them on. Also they SHOULD have an upcost for Synapse, otherwise running all Synapse becomes the more point-efficient way to build an army, which is part of the current problem with Codex: Flyrants in a way.

>I would be perfectly happy with larger squads of less-elite Warriors, or smaller squads of more-elite Warriors, so long as they're costed appropriately.
I think the proper way to do this is start them cheap and have a large selection of biomorph upgrades to scale just how "Elite" you want to make them.

>>50962909
Not having enough different upgrade biomorphs is basically the biggest problem with the current codex. When Tau have 5 dozen ways to kit out a crisis team, being able to choose poison or adrenal glands just isn't cutting it for an army that should be very customizable with what sort of units you want.

>>50962859
>you're just stuck on trying to go with something that had written precedent in 4th
Not really. I advocate EW because it would not only fix them, but it doesn't chance them against weapons that don't inflict ID. Warriors are a perfect troop choice IMO if you don't count ID as a factor and I see no need to change them beyond that. Maybe allow them to change their devs to claws for free, but that's it

>>50962909
Customization is glorious, but I highly doubt we'll ever get something as grand as the 3.5e Chaos or 4e Tyranid codexes again. GW has just moved too far away from that sort of listbuilding.

In a way it makes sense, because it was tricky to determine whether your opponent's list had 300 extra points of wargear in it at a glance, but it's still a damn shame.

>>50962965
>but it doesn't change* them against weapons that don't inflict ID.
There's no reason to hold anything in the current Tyranid Codex as sacred. Usually the goals of simple and elegant design says change as little as possible but when you're working with something as utterly broken and representatively poor as the Cruddexes, it's much better to throw everything out and start from scratch.

In a vacuum where Warriors are a new model and have never had shitty rules, Toughness 5 is a better fit for them.

>>50963059
>it's much better to throw everything out and start from scratch.
Don't break what hasn't been broken

>>50963094
>Don't break what hasn't been broken
The entire codex is broken, though. So you're actually agreeing that we should ditch the whole thing and start over.

>>50963094
>Cruddace Codexes
>not broken
You seem to be missing the entire point of this thread and all the threads like this one that crop up all the time.

Everything about the last two editions of Tyranids has been fundamentally broken.

The last edition to do Tyranids any justice was 4e and the conventions of that era of the game no longer apply, so to modernize them properly with a real update even 4e cannot be relied upon for exact precedents, only precedents of intent.

>>50963128
>>50963129
I'm talking about Warriors and I have already made clear of what I think of them. I would rather make a minor adjustment that results in a major improvement than to throw everything out and start from scratch

>>50963180
And what you think of them is a poor analysis. They are not "fine".

The proper fix to Tyranids is to throw out everything that's been written about them since Cruddace got his grubby paws on the Faction and start over from Chambers' and Goodwin's original conception.

And adding Eternal Warrior is not a minor adjustment in terms of external consequences. In a vacuum it gives a small buff to Warriors but it breaks the modern conventions set around what that rule is allowed to be used to represent, and the last thing we need is less consistency of crunch-to-fluff translation.

If a presented a brand-new Tyranid beast to you that was halfway in size between a Strength 4 Toughness 4 5+ save Genestealer and a Strength 6 Toughness 6 3+ save Carnifex, what stats do you think would properly represent its size, muscle mass and durability?

>>50963243
>Strength 6 Carnifex
Sorry ignore that oversight, let's pretend I meant Hive Tyrant

>>50963180
But throwing everything out and starting from scratch is the only way to fix the dumpster fire of the current nid codex

>>50962940
Not just very customizable but was intended to be the MOST customizable, by definition.

In other words, whoever is in charge of writing the next Tyranid Codex needs to look at all the other Codices out there and set the goal of having more customizability in their book than any of them.

One important thing that can be done to aid this is greatly reducing the cost of upgrades across the board. As bad as the base points costs are in the book, some of them would be tolerable if their biomorphs weren't two or three times more expensive than they should be, especially when the core rules keep hammering the USRs with nerfs.

>>50963329
>USRs
Gah, I almost forgot about these. I understand why they implemented them, but they were a mistake and ALWAYS a mistake. There's no inherent bad with having a consistent ability within a codex, but it's unnecessary for them to be completely universal. It could easily have been avoided by having unique naming conventions between armies, since the original "problem" was that Eldar and DEldar fleet of foot worked differently.

USRs introduce an external point of failure into a codex, because they invariably get changed when a new edition comes out, and tend to break an army one way or another. It's garbage, and would only be permissible if all of the codexes were released on the same day that the new edition comes out. The slow codex makes USRs a tremendously bad thing to have.

>>50963280
Not with warriors. Without ID they're quite capable shock troops, synapse creatures and they pack a punch with high WS, A3 and access to a pretty wide arsenal considering the book they come from

>>50963407
They aren't point-efficient, though, even discounting the fact that they require a synapse tax.

An ideal Tyranid Codex would be internally balanced around taking the new Purestrain Genestealers, sans the Cult Ambush/RttS special rules, and replacing the current Tyranid Genestealers with them, then balancing everything else around it.

In that case, 30 point Warriors with no superior combat stats or survivability doesn't make any sense. Increasing their S and T gives them a role at which they can actually perform better outside of purely ranged.

make twin linked devourers rending and be done with it

>>50964065
>buffing the already soley used competitive weapon
Eat shit and die

>>50964176
hahaha
I mean there is so much wrong with that codex already

name 5 tyranid units that should not exist. either codex, FW or white dwarf
>merging units counts too

>>50964192
Pyrovore
That spore fortification
Haruspex
Maleceptor
Mucolids

>>50964344
You forgot the Tyrannofex and the Toxicrene, but I guess you were only asked to name 5.

Basically all the very large monstrous creatures other than the Tervigon and Exocrine are total garbage and the exocirne is best as part of a living artillery node.

>>50964433
>toxicrene
Yeah
>tyrannofex
Um...why? Could be a shooty version of a trygon

>>50964530
It's an expensive shooting unit that can't hit the board side of a barn so you pretty much always have to go with acid spray but then if you needed an anti-infantry unit there are better, cheaper choices that aren't total bullet magnets.

So you guys know the weak units can be modified and given purposes and niches to justify their existence right? Instead of screwing over anyone who has the models of whatever you guys want removed.

>>50964344
>>50964433
The real answer is that most things should just be upgrades for various units. 80% of the monstrous creatures in the Tyranid book could be Carnifex variants.

>>50964962
This, while the Codex possibly could have been better off without bloating it with tons of unnecessary units that cat is now out of the bag, so a properly designed nid Codex needs to find a way to make them all uniquely useful.

>>50959562
God tier.

>>50965033
Which is another thing that's not really represented in the rules. Nids should have the unique ability to list tailor by design - in other words, they should have upgrades that are prepaid for in sets but aren't picked until after deployment when you've seen your opponent's army list.

Look at the 4th edition nid codex

Do what it does.

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>>50965051
Eh, not really, nids don't adapt on the fly, they send a wave in, watch how it dies, and then build a new wave thats better at not dying to said thing. It should be more represented in the insane variability of the tyranids themselves, to the point where if you come across two of the same creature, they could have entirely different capabilities.

If only there was a codex that did this

Tis but a dream i suppose.

>>50965094
>they send a wave in, watch how it dies, and then build a new wave thats better at not dying to said thing
That's exactly what I'm saying, except that the game you play against your opponent is assumed to not be the first wave if you paid for those adaptations.

>>50965109
I personally would rather not deal with people differing about with their lists before a game.

>>50965109
i think changing model stats during a game is a bridge too far

just bring back without number and be done with it

>>50965131
They're not actually changing anything on the lists, just picking the upgrades they want from sets they already paid for.

It's no different than deciding what psychic power tables you want to roll on during deployment.

>>50965109
I dunno if I'd support full list-tailoring on the fly. Maybe as a specific Hive-Fleet strain that's super good at adapting, if one were to give army-wide rules similar to chapter tactics.

That said, I would like the starting point to be Tyranids capable of list-tailoring at all before getting into how much they can switch up on the fly. Right now if you have a Tyranid army, I don't even think there's an easy way to swap everything from anti-horde to anti-tank as easily as some other armies.

>>50965141
Which is already a pain, I don't want to do it for every unit in the opponents army.

>>50965156
>Maybe as a specific Hive-Fleet strain that's super good at adapting, if one were to give army-wide rules similar to chapter tactics.
Definitely would fit for Gorgon.

>>50965131
>>50965141
>>50965157

I could get behind it if it was a specific 'variable' Biomorph upgrade. Like, pay X points for this, pick benefit A, B, or C during deployment.

>>50965094
>>50965109
well with a working living tide ruleset (coming in on 2+'s or somehting) and more variation in gaunt upgrades and biomorphs this could be a thing.
wave of gaunts die, they respawn with equal value in upgrades but they are picked upon respawn.
that way they wouldn't even need to adjust the costs too much.
I'd like them being able to charge out of a trygon tunnel or outflank or something too so you aren't constantly losing huge ground. otherwise people would just pepper your units and you woulnt be able to get respawns until turn 3 or 4

>>50965174
nids shouldn't need to reserves roll for without number, they should just come back next turn

thats the entire point. Its an endless swarm.

>>50965174
>>50965189
Yeah. Besides, odds are entire Gaunt squads won't be dying off that fast, so the least you could do is let it be automatic.

Outflanking or some form of getting the reserves across the board is also important. The Trygon tunnel would be a better option if it was like a drop pod so it could come in turn 1 and if it could allow more units through.

>>50965189
This. Also they should never grant Kill Points, because lol they're worth less to the Hive Fleet than the opponents ammunition is to them.

>>50965189
>>50965203
yeah, that would be nice too, or be able to have a bullshit 2+ with re-roll access. I think it would be nice to make it the main strategy to shove gaunts into enemy guns like the lore.
where sacrificing gaunts to the right units are whats important. I mean Nids would be nice if they were an elegant playstyle like aspect eldar. but horde based

>>50965245
oh man if only there was a codex where playing a true horde of nids was actually effective because you could throw literal endless numbers at them and use the insanely fast Hormagaunts (which were pretty ok in 4th ed at 10 points a pop) to get into combat with the gunline in one turn and slam them with 3 attacks on the charge

Oh wait now we have overwatch and the assault phase is dead

no fucking hope boys, the entire ruleset of 40k isn't about armies anymore, its about big giant robots and tanks duking it out. Nids are fucking dead because GW hates them

>>50965277
I'm fine with overwatch, infact I think its extra fluffy for nids to be getting overwatch shot at them. if that makes sense.
assault phase is dead because of other reasons than overwatch.
frankly its the shooting power levels that have killed its viability. melee hits on 3+ at best shooting is 2's thats the base problem as I see it.
and the lack of running and charging in this edition

>>50965349
overwatch needs its shit nerfed.

>>50965349
Assault can work fine in theory and Overwatch definitely isn't the biggest issue, the problem is that the core rules nerfed assault while the Codices targeted nerfs at assault armies at the same time. Complete overkill considering it was never even really too strong (Eldar was a top army in every single edition and have always been shooty based).

>>50965365
I've literally never lost a game because of Overwatch.

I've lost games because my shit gets utterly pushed in while footslogging across the board before it even gets to make a charge at all.

>>50965375
its just adding insult to injury

your assault units already got shot to shit, and now they can finally assault, oops, more shooting

>>50965423
It would have made sense if they didn't also remove every possibility of charging out of reserves.

The two of them at the same time was retarded.

Overwatch should be returned to the superior 2e version where you had to give up a shooting phase to go into OW but then when you triggered it on the opponents turn you fired at full BS. That made it an actual tactically interesting decision, especially combined with unit facing mattering.

>>50965370
yeah assaults often win tactical objective games and such, they could easily be viable if the assault codexes werent nerfed as well, like you said.
delivery mechanisms (not to bring up vehicles being nerfed, and fucking grav existing) need to be more common in melee armies. as well as a reason to be more than +1WS than an opponent. this game is build like everyone has bruce lee evasion.
>>50965365
yeah tau and DA have serious problems. but I don't think its really that bad in general. the bigger problem is that it hurts too much to lose units at their current costs in horde armies.
>>50965375
this is basically what happens

>>50965365
Overwatch is only game breaking in armies that can do it at higher BS for whatever reasons. In all other situations it's completely fine.

>>50965365
Either Initiative or Leadership test to overwatch (maybe nerf wall of death and templates in general?)

>>50965836
something like that

Reminder that the Pyrovore exists.

I've been thinking of ways the codex could be fixed, here are my thoughts:

Synapse: Bugs within Synapse range should receive a bonus, I like the idea of being able to run + shoot/charge. Gives them a bit of a speed boost.

Instinctive behavour: Should be split into two types and should restrict control over the units but not make them useless or eat themselves.
lurk: unit must move towards nearest cover, can shoot but not charge
hunt: unit must move towards the nearest enemy and must charge, cannot shoot this turn.

Shadow in the Warp: Maybe make psychic powers harder to cast, but dont suffer perils? Psykers in range suffer -3 leadership.

Guns: Venom cannon should not be blast. Regular should be s 7 ap 4 assault 2 (make it an autocannon) Heavy should be s 9 ap 4 assault 2. Deathspitters should use small blast.
Bio plasma should use the flame template. Rupture cannon should be s 10 ap 2. Weapon ranges should be kept as they are. Make shooting powerful but close ranged.

Meelee: Scything talons re-roll 1s. Dual boneswords needs a new rule or something so that lash whip+bonesword isn't just better.

Biomorphs: all tyranid units have access to the following: Toxin sacs (poison shooting + cc), Adrenal glands (fleet + furious charge), Extended carapace (+1 sv), Flesh hooks (assault grenades, remove ranged attack).

Hive tyrants should have access to an invuln (maybe restrict this to walkrants). Monstrous creatures should have at least ws/bs 4. Warrior sized bugs should be at least s/t 5.
Lictors should be able to charge from deepstrike. Gaunts should be able to purchase without number. Tervigons shouldn't nuke gaunts, make them fall back instead.


The whole codex really needs to be re-written though. I hope GW gives all armies a proper update on 8th ed release. I wish they would re-do everything from scratch for 8th so
that all armies are on a level playing field.

>>50966455
They would be decent if they were cheaper.

>>50967909
>Maybe make psychic powers harder to cast, but dont suffer perils?

I like this idea. Change it so enemy Psykers within Synapse Range only harness warp charges on a 5+. If they Perils, they just take a single automatic wound with no saves of any kind, to represent the maddening effects of trying to push through the shadow.

Which leads on to something else I'd like to see. Tie Tyranid psychic powers to Synapse range. So Catalyst goes from affecting the caster and another unit within 24" to everything within Synapse Range. The Horror and Psychic Scream hit all enemy units within Synapse Range. I like the idea that the Hive Mind should feel palpable on the tabletop, forming a wall of weird, creepy psychic powers that advances ahead of the army itself. It also makes Dominion much more useful, since casting it increases the range of your other powers.

>>50968563
No, not really

>>50957355
reduce the points of everything by 25%

>>50969781
all this would do is make players wield more flyrants.

>>50970117
there's still an HQ limit dumbass.

>>50970521
Not when you can fill your minimum Troops slots with 15 point Mucolid spores and take an infinite number of Combined Arms detachments.

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>>50970521
This is a bit under 1850 pt list with -25%...

so how can we safe the poor carnifex? at the moment necrons can get 2½ tomb spyders for a single fex and the spiders are better in every way

>>50971843

The carnifex is 80 points base and has fnp

its initiative gets bumped up to 3 so it's faster than tau and necrons but still slower than marines

it can now be taken in broods of 5, and has 5 wounds base

fixed

>>50972248

also, change living battering ram to an AP 2 auto hit against vehicles/MC's and d3 AP4 autohits against infantry/vehicles

GMC's/SHV's/buildings get d3 AP2 autohits because fuck them

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The maleceptor's psychic special ability should be replaced by one that works as follows

Warp charge 2, focused witchfire

your opponent must make d3+1 leadership checks, for each one which fails a model is removed from the field with no saves of any kind allowed

if it is manifested with 2 warp charges your opponent chooses the models removed, if it is manifested with 3 warp charges you choose the models which are removed

then give it a formation with zoanthropes which lets it harness warpcharges on a 3+ and lets neurothropes share the warpcharges gained from its psychic attack among the formation as a pool that any psyker in the formation can use and make psychic shield a 4+ across the board (that hive tyrants can buy) and we have fixed the maleceptor

>>50968905
this is almost brilliant. as long as it didn't affect witchpowers
>>50971461
OMG 9 flyrants! if only if only
>>50972276
also make pairs of biomorphs count as 2 weapons. pair of scything talons+pair of crushing claws= +2 attacks
>>50972381
maleceptors need to have acces to (cheaper) AD glands and have access to a biomancy like table
honestly nids would be amazing at the moment if 2 things were true (everyone will hate me for this)
1.you can go from swooping to gliding and charge that turn
2.access to biomancy

I know it would make flyrants/flying circus insane, but goddammit it would feel good

>>50972480
>maleceptors need to have acces to (cheaper) AD glands and have access to a biomancy like table

I don't like the idea of making the Maleceptor just another melee beatstick, especially one that's reliant upon rolling Iron Arm or Warp Speed to really do its job well. It should be a midline support and debuffing unit IMO. I'd probably give it a passive Ld debuff to enemy units, and a battery of Psychic Powers that play off Ld effects. The Horror and a few from Telepathy, probably.

>>50971843
>Same profile as in 5th ed but with BS2.
>Option to upgrade to BS3 for 10 pts.
>Talons allow re-rolls like they did in 5th army wide buff.
>Regeneration costs 15-20 pts
>Any Carnifex maybe upgraded to the OOE
>Living Battering Ram gives +2I on charge

110 pts/model

i would honestly just scrap regeneration or just make it give fnp

there is no way to really assign a cost for something so rng based

>>50973554
>there is no way to really assign a cost for something so rng based

Confers It Will Not Die, costs 20 points.

>>50973451

Let's start with the Dreadknight and work backwards. They might be a sin against aesthetics, but I don't think anyone can say that DKs are ruining the game in the same way that Riptides or Wraithknights are.

> 130pts
> WS5
> 2+
> 5++
> I4
> Deep Strike
> Force Weapon

Even assuming that the guns and Teleporter don't count because they are upgrades, the Dreadknight is such a ridiculous improvement that it beggars belief. This is a 10pt difference we are talking about.
I'd say that the Carnifex might not deserve to be the best 1-vs-1 monster going, but it is the iconic monster of the monstrous faction and it deserves to be aggressively costed.
As a minimum:

> ScyTals give +1WS per pair
Good luck blocking/parrying a Carnifex. A Screamer-Killer with WS5 seems natural.
> A4 base
See Dreadnoughts
> Devourer cost inflated or replaced with Poison
Carnifex should have always been a melee ram
> A double-talon Carnifex with Bio-Plasma should still run below 100pts

>>50968563
>living bombs in your own army
>decent
>ever

if nids weren't completely worthless without Synapse and Warriors were useful, no one would ever field a tervigon

>>50971843
make it 4th edition like everything else

Honestly why is anyone being like WE NEED TO FIX THE NIDS when in reality they just need to have 4th edition dex back.

That dex has all the fixes.

Are Tyranids at least worthwhile in Zone Mortalis?

>>50973791
A lot of the weak stuff was still weak in that codex like gaunts and raveners

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Reminder that a TH/SS Wulfen will statistically kill a Carnifex.
Not a squad.
A single Wulfen.

Tyranids will not be a real melee race until they can defeat actual melee units. IE- Better than a Tactical Squad.

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>>50973791
We need 4th edition 40k back in general.

Flyers, superheavies, formations, the increase in army sizes and the rest. All of it is strangling the fun out of the game.

>>50973765
People actually field Tervigons?

>>50974060
if they want scoring troops yeah.

>>50973907
????

Gaunts were great in 4th ed.

Raveners sucked but thats because they're a deep strike unit supposed to go far ahead of the army and are reliant on synapse.

>>50973914
Squad of fucking Repentias can do it too.

Melee fucking Sisters of Battle.

Then again Repentias can destroy Knights

>>50974225
Even hormas?

>>50974469
they did their job pretty decently, you could give them frag nades, and they had 3 attacks on the charge, and could get across the table at insane speed.

They were great at their job of 'get in there and bog down a shooty unit forever' because they got there fast and there were a lot of them, and they had a fair number of attacks so they might actually score a kill

Plus IB rules back then made them significantly less shit outside of synapse.

firepower armies are able to put out is much higher now than in 4th edition. using 4th edition nid dex will just get you shot off the field

>>50973791
The game as a whole is no longer in the place that it was when that book was released - it was the best book we've ever had as a Faction but that was for it's time. A modern Tyranid fix needs to be just that - modern. The game has evolved.

A proper return to form for 'nids would be both nostalgic - recognizable as drawing elements from their roots - but also fresh and new, containing things that haven't ever been seen represented before in the rules. It needs to advance and update the fluff and fix all of the damage done by the Cruddexes, and contain hitherto unseen levels of customization like if the Tau Codex had an Angels of Death/Traitor Legions supplement all rolled into a single book with it. It should be the largest Xenos faction book ever produced by GW, so that it can stand on its own, entirely isolated from Allies other than Genestealer Cults, or core rulebook Psychic Powers, or Fortifications, and do justice to the original concept of Tyranids as the most insanely mutable Faction in the game. It needs a CUTTING EDGE level of internal balance so that no few particular power builds stand out from each other and become solid elements of the meta. An opponent preparing to play against Tyranids without seeing the list beforehand should have no possible way of knowing exactly what they're going to be up against.

>>50976946

could I get fries and a coke with that as well

Introduction of the mainfleet (still working with the all the current nids in the milky way are splinterfleets). Add a shitload of new units and rules that would reflect the main fleet having countless adaptations from fighting and consuming multiple galaxies.

Good way to move lore, sell dank minis etc.

>>50976946
Perfect balance in a codex and/or the game as a whole is literally impossible or so i am told
If so then whats the point of this whole mess?

>>50977086
Doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to be competent.