What went wrong?

>>50935140
Nothing, they just need to talk about their victories a little bit more for the tyranid fans and to update the rules to make them a little bit more competitive and not a monobuild

>>50935173
>implying an NPC race can have victories

I fully expect by the next codex that Hive Fleet Kraken will have even less victories, let alone leviathan. I bet they'll even make the orcs defeat the nids.

>>50935140
My only contact with tryanids is watching hundreds of MWG batreps with them over the years. Matt does very well with them so I never quite understood the moaning. They always seemed like a high mid tier army.

>>50935274
>TYRANIDS
>HIGH MID TIER

Maybe with the garbage tier flavor flyrant lists

I WANT REAL NIDS BACK

>>50935217
that is the problem, they are cool faction who has fans care about them winning. They don't need to take out the utras they just need to almost kill them and then eat a few more planets while jobbing some random chaos warband.

>>50935468
i mean its understandable why fans were upset by a big story about THE TAU OUT ADAPTING AN ULTRA-ADAPTIVE TYRANID FLEET (WITH NEEDS LITERALLY BEING THE RACE THAT ADAPTS TO SHIT FAST AS FUCK)

IN THEIR OWN FUCKING BOOK

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>>50935140

>>50935546
REEEEEE

>>50935546
I can't even begin to rage at this, I just hope he does not write the next one and am glad he stays away from the cool models.
>>50935503
My point, but hey at least GSC are kicking some ass.

>>50935598
>tfw your splinter faction is more successful than you are

>>50935274
Most people don't understand the moaning until they go to write a list themselves.

The failings of the codex become quite apparent at that point.

>>50935627
come on anon don't you like fliers.

literally just fliers.

How about the nigh unavailable +2 saves huh

You like that

Worthless overpriced core units like carnifexes? Is that more your shit?

don't forget that Tyranid Warriors are literally useless.

Fucking great 10/10 codex.

Gotta love the large array of monstrous creatures that are utter garbage compared to other race's monstrous creatures.

>>50935626
Cheap rending is good while the fact that the list for pure nids has only a few good units.Flygrants, venomthropes, malanthropes,Zoanthropes are good. Tervigon and Exocrine are ok. Termagants are filler and cheap.

>>50935709
>tervigon
>ok

>termagants
>cheap.

I miss invulnerable saves. And 'nids should have templates somewhere.

Also, something something warriors should be competitive with marines.

Does GW sell wings yet? Because when they made fliers viable, they didn't. They barely sold Gargoyles.

>>50935503
More of a problem with tau than tyranids.
Wish i could prank every tau player from the face of the earth.

>>50935546
I hope he gets to do the next Tau and Eldar update.

>>50935740
More of a problem with the codex being written by someone that clearly hates the race imo

>>50935140
Well, in the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

>>50935754
This. Why the FUCK would you let someone write rules for something they hate? Was it Kirby's last "fuck you" at the players?

>>50935782
More like GW's "fuck you" at the nid players who bought 3rd party spores.

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>>50935682

>>50935782
who knows, nids just have gotten shit on by the Cruddexes.

like 5th was bad but it had some cool shit

but then MUH 3RD PARTY MODELS happened and they literally lost a number of neat things for fucking PYROVORES.

>>50935753
heh.

>>50935715
It is a monstrous creature that makes little dudes at an ok point range. It does it job well but could go down a few more points or get some better stats. termagants are not that many points as well

>>50935877
Termagants aren't even worth the 4 pts per model they're so fucking useless on the table, and Tervigons are living bombs within your swarm that kill you, and are 100% RNG reliant.

i miss without number.

>>50935936
Yea they should be the price of conscripts for the imperial guard or cheaper

>>50935983
they cost more than conscripts and are worse at shooting

its crazy.

>>50936016
They should be 2 pts per model really

>>50936034
>>50936034
we used to pay 7 pts per model for Without Number Termagaunts back in 4th ed and they were great.

>>50936098
True but they don't need to kill anything, they just need to die in the way.

>>50936098
actually they were 9 pointsand they were great because they were garunteed value and even if an entire brood got wiped the fuck out in a turn, they could come back

You could have a brood of 32 gaunts get wiped and come back 3-4 times in a game, it was amazing

They were also helped by the fact that the instinctive behavior rules were good and warriors were relatively ok at their jobs (completely powercreeped to worthlessness now though.)

I'll fix Tyranids with three things

>All synapse providing creatures are immune to instant death
>Creatures within synapse get an extra d6 of movespeed
>Synapse providers get an extra d6 of movespeed if 12 or more synapse receivers are in range

Problem solved, warriors don't get instantly ded and gaunts can get close to the enemy while keeping synapse.

>>50936257
i'll do you one better

>4th edition instinctive behavior rules

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>>50935140
>no Martian laser beams
>Genestealers don't facerape
At least suck some energy if you're not impregnating your enemies.

>>50935140
Tyranids were simplified in concept and execution, as well as had far too many Hive Fleets added in a vain attempt to offer a sense of DOOM.

Thematically the Tyranids were at their best when the only recorded Hive Fleets were Behemoth, Kraken, and Leviathan. Each individual fleet felt threatening, most especially Leviathan (especially with the implication that the prior two were nothing more than vanguard / outriders, with Leviathan an actual incursion / fleet in full). Not only because of the sense of dread provided, but because they came from an era wherein the Tyranids were explicitly driven by a will that belonged something much greater than a simple beast.

Those days are gone now. Tyranids are barely anything more than mindless beasts with the odd near-sapient Hive Tyrant and a Hive Mind whose mental gates might as well be a revolving door. Forget doubling and tripling down on "lol throw more bugs at it until its dead", we're up to quadrupling of such methods being their pinnacle with basic military tactics the exception instead of the norm. Hive Fleets are chewed up and spat out in systems throughout the galaxy, the successful fleets' paths of carnage reduced to simple statistics. Their adaptive talents that allowed them to eat one salvo of virus bombs only to spit them back (with improvements) the next time around has almost entirely been forgotten in half the fluff, likewise their capability to learn and avoid falling for the same blunders multiple times.

Basically they became Generic Space Dino-Bugs in all of the worst possible ways.

>>50936574
pretty much this yeah

>>50935682
Carnifexii?

I run fucking SHRIKES, get on my BAD

>>50939365
>he runs Shrikes

M A D M A N

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>>50936379
>Genestealers don't facerape
they don't?

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>>50939365
I will never forget my first and only experience with shrikes.

I was but a wee lad back in the days of 6th edition, naive to the evil of this world.

I had spent weeks converting custom shrikes from my warrior boxes. 3rd party wings, converted rending claws into talons, molded them into action poses etc

I was so excited to see them tear shit up in melee with their boneswords.

I put them on the table and as soon as they left cover my "friends" long fangs shot a few missiles at them and just like that they were but dust in the wind...

Now they just collect dust in the bottom of my bits box.

R.I.P in peace shrikes. I never knew ye.

>>50935768

RIP ;_;7

when they dropped zoats

>>50940281
What was their swansong

I spent similar amounts of effort on mine, brother.

https://youtu.be/5i7qZxICwgQ

I have 13 beautiful carnifexii that haven't seen the light of day in 5 years.

>>50936098
The game has changed a lot since 4th Ed

>>50936574
>Their adaptive talents that allowed them to eat one salvo of virus bombs only to spit them back (with improvements) the next time around has almost entirely been forgotten in half the fluff, likewise their capability to learn and avoid falling for the same blunders multiple times.
>t. didn't read any of the shield of baal campaign books

Tyranids out adapted the imperium and the weird environments of the planets they fought on in a matter of a day. they then spent the next 2 days absolutely BTFOing the Cadians and the Sisters of battle, and completely destroyed a very well guarded imperial system. It took the blood angels and their successors working with the Necrons and their super weapon to finally defeat that swarm. The fluff specifically mentions that the hive is learning and adapting and is far more dangerous now than it was in the wars against the ultramarines or ichor iv.
>le tau out adapted the tyranids maymay
The tau, decades ago, kept up with the tyranids long enough for the imperial guard fleet to wipe out the hive ships and prevent the tyranids from sending in massed reinforcements and newly adapted beasts. The swarms adaptive capabilities are much better now, the tau would be absolutely fucked

>>50935274
>a monobuild works
>CODEX IS OK GUYZ

This is the shit mentality that brought us to the shitshow we are all in today.

>>50935753
Vetock and Kelly will never allow him to ruin their pet armies.

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http://www.warpshadow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=165311#p165311
>For whatever it`s worth Phil also had a strong hand in the development of this dex. So blame both of them if you like...

http://warpshadow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=205724#p205724
>I talked a lot with people including Phil Kelly himself about my thoughts of the codex and I was interested how and why it was so badly written. Everybody at GW knows that codex tyranids was bad - they don't deny it which I haven't expected. When I talked to Phil at Games Day Germany he told me the following:

>_________________________________________

>ME (after some random chat about nids) : Can I ask you about the overall acceptance of the latest codex?

>PHIL: Yeah I know what comes now
>ME: No I dont wanna bash I am just curious about what thoughts were behind the codex. I know many people bash it and I heard sales went down extremely,too. For example the Pyrovore is a unit many people don't see viable.
>PHIL: Yeah I know - and I can tell you that the people at GW know about this. The problem is this: Nids in 4th were pretty strong and many people thought they were way to powerful. Nidzilla and these times upset many players because they felt they had no chance against a tyranid army. When the 5th edition codex came around we tried to fix this issue. The so often talked about balance is the hardest job at GW. Its like a pendulum. We try to fix stuff but sometimes the pendulum goes to far to one side, making an army a little bit to strong or vice versa. All we can do is playtest but there are just to many combos, gear etc. We have no time checking all of them no matter how often we play. Sometimes this is ok but sometimes the result are super hard combos with have not foreseen. To crazy stuff will be dealt with via an FAQ but you know this sometimes takes a while.

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>>50942221

>ME: Wow Phil I have to say I am speechless. I haven't expected that much insight. Could you tell me anything about the new planned codex? I know you can't say much.

>PHIL: Yeah, I can't comment to much but I can tell you this: We are working on it and we want to get that pendulum back in the middle!
;^)

http://warpshadow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=205737#p205737
>thanks for posting that ! I was asked to offer feedback during the development of the last codex. With hindsight that has been a rather frustrating experience because I did catch quite a few of the problems (still got the notes), but my advice wasn`t very influential in the end.
>Oh, how I fought to get the Lictor back into fighting shape...(and obviously I suggested calling the "Tyrannofex" an "Exocrine" - and look what`s hatching now).
>Never got the chance to talk to Phil about that though, so it is very interesting to hear what he said...

Is there something Kelly wrote that had no balance problems in a way or another?

>>50936016
Conscripts- bs2
Termaguants- bs3

Yet another victim complex tyranid player

>>50935274
They took away all there fucking options
The previous codex had a great list of fun mutations you could give your models new one has fuck all.

>>50942221
>>50942229

Its interesting because they talk about balancing each faction and giving them strengths and weaknesses, but its really clear some factions are favorited moreso than others which is to be expected but not by such a massive margin. So many armies have cheap access to powerful weapons which fire at long ranges

What should really be done is allow tyranid players to customize their models like 4th ed allowed. Let us give our carnifexs 2+ saves at 20-30pts, give it more toughness or strength at a price. If we want to spend 5 pts on Without Number then that's our issue.

>>50936574
At least they have that one story about the single nid i forget the type of sending that leader crazy by killing his guards every night.

>>50942316
Not that anon, but did you read the Fall of Shadowbrink story in 6th? That was a Tyranid story done right.
Tyranids face opposition against daemons, so they adapt and evolve to fight the enemy on their terms

>>50942294
Every codex went through this though.
That part isn't specific to tyranids.

And to be fair, most of those lists were fairly pointless gameplay wise as most of their options were never taken.
But they gave some flavour to codex, even if those options were never taken, they were there.
They tried to sacrifice this illusion of choice to streamlined the game and facilitate balance, but fail to deliver.
Illusions are nice sometime.

>>50942370
>Illusions are nice sometime
This

I think there are several problems with nids, but the biggest problem is that other armies have thematic special rules which let them ignore fundamental rules in the game, and tyranids have the instinctive behavior tax which is almost exclusively negative.

The best tyranid units are, unsurprisingly, units which are flying, provide synapse or don't need it to use their gimmick (mawlocs). Otherwise there just isn't synergy. Tau can move all over the place and have multiple units shoot overwatch, SM have ATSKNF which makes assault fucking irritating and irrelevant, IG can ignore cover and ID monstrous creatures with beast-hunter shells, and then there's rerollable armor and jink saves, and demons and GSC can vomit free units--an ability nids used well in 6th but tervigon were nerfed because "muh spess mareens lost one game bawww". That Phil Kelly interview really illustrates how whiny fat autistocrats can get an army nerfed, and it's pretty sad.

Also tyranid WL traits fucking suck (thank goodness you don't have to use them), not being able to use other psychic disciplines when your powers are just "pretty okay" sucks, the named HQs are too expensive, the drop pods don't provide synapse and/or aren't assault pods and despite being MCs can't fire 360 degrees thanks to the FAQ, and MC ICs can't join other units now thanks to the FAQ, effectively deleting tyrant guard special rules (RAW).

Anyway, I could go on and on, but TLDR:
basically I blame whiny fats who have no perception of what constitutes a broken rule, poor rules writing, and a bad 7th ed assault phase.

>>50942488
Jesus fuck marine players. And it goes the other way around too. Shit too powerful is dismissed saying "come one there is grav for that"

As orks had grav.

>>50942488
Oh and nid firing range...holy fuck is it short. One of the best ranged weapons is the bio-plasma cannon on every 'nid LoW (except the scythed heirodule), so you have to spend hundreds of points just to get that 72"--something many armies can obtain cheaply, and the only LoW worth taking is the Harridan, which is an FGC so it doesn't need the range anyway.

>>50941914
Piece of shit Tyranid fanboys I sear to god.

>The tau, decades ago, kept up with the tyranids long enough for the imperial guard fleet to wipe out the hive ships and prevent the tyranids from sending in massed reinforcements and newly adapted beasts. The swarms adaptive capabilities are much better now, the tau would be absolutely fucked

Don't lie.

Both Imperials and Tau worked together to defeat the Tyranids ON THE GROUND. Equally. It wasn't all the Imperial credit. In fact, it was all the Tau credit since the Tau figured out the weakness of Gorgon's adaptation. The tides of the war were already turned on the Tyranids before the Imperials arrived. The imperials prevented nothing, you bitch. The text just says that the combined forces of Imperials and Tau were too much for Gorgon to adapt against.

We have the text with us, motherfucker, it easy to fact check you. So why do you lie like this? Why do you do this? What's your agenda? Do you hotglue your fexes?

>The swarms adaptive capabilities are much better now, the tau would be absolutely fucked

No, it ain't. Gorgon was unique it ins super adaptive abilities. If the Tau face any Hive Fleet, Leviathan, Behemoth, Kraken, etc, the Tau will out-tech much much easily.

>>50940111
Hot!

Source?

>>50942566
Lol "piece of shit tyranid fanboys". I'm not the guy you're replying to, but calm the fuck down. As I understand it, Tau introduced a virus that gave nids an evolutionary dead-end, is that correct? Seems like Tau and Necrons are pretty savage nid adversaries.

>>50942488
>vomit free units
That's really the most thematically appropriate gimmick for tyranids, "shot them now or be swarmed."
Instead, it's tyranids that are pressed by time, and that's completely backward.
I'm even relatively ok with instinctive behaviours being punishing, but tyranids should have multiple methods of reinforcements forcing the hands of their opponents.

>>50942488
>>50942562

One of the Tyranids biggest weaknesses has always been a lacking in the long range department with high AP weapons. Its meant to be offset by the fact we are deadly in melee, but you need to get there and still be in a condition to fight which isn't happening. Some decent firepower would help this. I'm not expecting we get las cannon strength weapons, but would it be too much to ask for the Exocrine to have a 36' range, or make the Rupture Cannon AP2 (the damn thing is meant to be comparable to a ShadowSwords main gun)?

Every other army also has lots of ap1-3 weapons at decent prices, we either have to spam zoanthropes or buy a MC at 200pts. Not too mention units with decent armour/invulnerable saves and access to EW which we don't have. Only thing with a 2+ is a Tyrannofex, and that unit alone is enough to highlight the problems with the codex.

We shouldn't have to buy Lords of War to have decent firepower

>>50942567
Alien Vs Predator 2:Requiem

>>50942566
dude you have to relax. Walk a bit outside, breathe, and then come back.

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Speaking about adaptation. The Tyranids failed to adapt to the Necrons weaponry deployed in Shield of Baal.

How many swarms did the Burning One kill over the course of the war? Not a single mention of Tyranids gaining fire resistant adaptation. Instead we are given details about how each swarm that fell under the C'tan's sight was turned to ash in moments.

And this Hive fleet is Leviathan which is second in adaptation only to Gorgon.

>>50942566
Mate, I agree with your point but seriously calm down.
Save your anger for the battlefield

>>50935217
I have some bad news for you. In canon, the orks do beat the nids at Octarius.

>>50942630
>>50942615
No, I WILL NOT CALM DOWN. Feeling angry is fun.

> As I understand it, Tau introduced a virus that gave nids an evolutionary dead-end, is that correct? Seems like Tau and Necrons are pretty savage nid adversaries.

Wrong place, time, and fleet. That was Farsight Enclave vs a splinter of Kraken. They created a virus that killed off the whole splinter fleet the moment the ship feeders sucked up the biomass.

>>50942629
...and DESU, the bio-cannon isn't that great. You get two and they're S10 assault 6, but they're AP3, and you have no blast options.

>>50942656
>Feeling Angry is fun
Ahhh, autism.

Thanks for the clarification, though.

>>50942639
A: They did adapt to be a lot mroe fire resistant. That just wasn't enough.

B: It was obvious that resisting the Burning One wasn't , so they didn't waste resources on it.

C: Adaptation may see them manage hotter climate, be less susceptible to some forms of biological or chemical warfare, etc. Not surviving a fucking napalm bath.

It's not fucking Borg style plot armour.

>>50942615
Horde armies in 40k are often defeated by some more or less bullshit heroic actions anyway.
Never ending tides of orks? Kill the warboss and this all over!
All hell is vomited upon a world? Close the warp portal and all demons get back home.
Tyranids get macguffined to death, it's how it is.

Because otherwise, that would mean long campaigns with logistics and all sort of thinking stuff, and not the Heroes saving the day. And only FW want to write that.

>>50942667
Remember when you could argue the Heirophant had a 3++ save due to a wording issue between codexs?

Instantly made you That Guy, but it was funny in friendly games to have such a monster running around with a 3++

>>50942654
To be fair, killing orks just makes more orks. Killing Tyranids doesn't make more biomass, just turning existing biomass from moving to not moving.

>>50942654
The nids and orks were made for each other, though. I love reading the fluff where they fight.

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>>50942276
Is there something any GW developer wrote that had no balance problems in a way or another?

>>50942615
>>50942630
>>50942649
Welcome to Carnac.

>As I understand it, Tau introduced a virus that gave nids an evolutionary dead-end, is that correct?
No, in the original 5th edition version they just learned to Shoot the Big Ones, which hurt Gorgon especially because it had less and struggled to replace them quickly enough. The current codex dropped that though.

>>50942654
They beat one wave, thanks to Ghazghkull's arrival, and now they're dealing with the next one.

>>50942639
C'tan actively break physics to their own whims and Necron weaponry in general is extremely difficult to adapt properly against, Gauss in particular basically ignores any measure of protection except density due to how it works.

It's not a matter of the Tyranids being bad at adapting, it's a matter of Necron tech being top-tier.

>>50942699
Wording issue? I thought the first apocalypse book just literally said 3++, but my memory's fuzzy. I feel like the heirophant needs something but I can't figure out how I'd make it good.

Internet Nid players are the worst.
We have 1-2 guys at our store that stomp people frequently.

The biggest issue I see from nid players are the same I see with kdk players....they upgrade too much of their shit. You do not need a million options, you are a hoard army.

Another mistake is thinking "My whole army will be x". That is bullshit netlisting and it does not work, you need variety.

FFS the gargoyle formation is fantastic, a base fex is still amazing, and you have flyrants.....not to mention the mama nid that spams more nids?

Get creative and quit bitchin.

>>50942748
>a base fex is still amazing

The Flyrants are good, the gaunt-spawner is good, the malenthrope is useful, but Carnifexes are terrible these days.

>>50942729
Actually reading the fluff in you pic, I have to say...it's fine.

>>50942748
Haha, ohhhkayy. I think it depends on your local meta--we have a ton of 40k players at the store so it varies wildly between super-competitive and not at all. In the "not at all" games, nids can be tons of fun, in the competitive games it's rough, and I think tournament results illustrate this. What army/armies do you play?

>>50942748
The "mama nid" basically kills all the gants around her within 12" when she dies...which she will with so many armies having ignores-cover.

>>50942762
The malanthrope -can- be useful but ignores cover easily negates all its usefulness.

>>50942748
> a base fex is still amazing
uhhhhhhrrghblblblbllll

>>50942839
Agreed, wtf. It has 4W and basic spess mereen armor. It's not fast, it has 6LD so psychic scream is very deadly to it and it's WS/BS3. Sure it's S9, but you need to keep synapse with it or the unit eats itself.

>>50942839
Well, I look at its rules and I'm amazed. I guess it makes amazing?

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Quick question. What makes the 40k universe so appealing to people? I've suddenly become pretty invested in it and I can't exactly figure out why

>>50942876
>>50942909

aghhhhhhhmmmblblblblblblbllll

sorry I was trying to talk out of my ass that guy did.

>>50942746
Outside of Imperial Armour, we only had rules for the Heirophant in Apocalypse rulebook which come out just before we got 5th edition.

The rules for it said something like "A Heirophant has the Warp Field psychic power as listed in the Tyranid codex", naturally when we got 5th edition Warp Field changed from a 6++ to a 3++ because it was meant as a Zoanthrope only power. But without any FAQs, reading the rules as printed implied it got a 3++

The new Imperial Armour rules for it give it a much needed boast allowing players to purchase upgrades such as a hellstorm bio plasma attack, transport capacity, and skyfire options. Though I'd still reduce it's points by about 250-300 if it were me, a War Hound Titan is 750 and has D weapons

>>50942748
Flyrants are easily killed, Tervigons look daunting but die just as easily and wipe out most of your gants. The carnifex really isn't good, its lost it's ability to deal damage to cover it's costs.
I also think you're forgetting no other army has such severe restrictions on them, literally half our army will eat itself if someone doesn't tap it on the shoulder each turn whilst the other half hide

Alot of the issues with the tyranids isn't so much the codex (which isn't good by any standard) but by the power creep that has infested the game. Other armies are just too powerful and their gimics beat ours hands down

>>50942909
What about it amazes you? I am legitimately curious. I really want to know now what army you play.

>>50942918
I dunno. I agree it sucks you in... I wouldn't say the writing is good but having such a quantity of story is really nice.

>>50942918
for me is
- chaos. chaos make it a buddhist setting with a gothic aestethic
- ayy lmaos are cool and different
- tragic but not pathetic
- references to a period of pop culture I adore

>>50942947
>What about it amazes you?

not that guy but I think it was ironic

>always kinda wanted to do Nids
>always loved raveners
>almost bought into Nids when the Trygons released
>didn't because money and friend played Nids
>skip to now
>subterranean swarm exists
>not worth the money
>have no one to play with anyway

>>50942934
That's right, I remember now! Such lazy writing not to just come up with a new term--"Bio field" or something.

I didn't realize you could give the heirophant skyfire, but that's my fault for using BattleScribe instead of buying the book (which I saw is finally back in stock).

>>50942617
> Tervigons don't kill gaunts as they die
> Spawning pit as fortifications, so the enemies have to get close if he want to stop you from spawning free units
> Without Number because why the fuck not

>>50943024
Tervigons killing gants when they die feels redundant because it might be the only synapse you have for those gants anyway. I like pairing a malanthrope or venomthrope with them and sitting the whole mess in ruins on an objective, but that's the only time I've seen them shine. I guess that and giving them the dessicator larvae or shredder-shard template is pretty great also for WoD.

i really don't get the point of gants, you can't leave them on objectives without a shepherd so you pretty much have to run them at the enemy to tarpit them. but to do that they need large numbers and they aren't any faster than other nids resulting in them just getting in the way

>>50942629
I ran a list with 3 dimechaerons and 4 fexes (2 units of 2) in it against a somewhat competitive DA list, and it was a lot of fun. I won but the game was close and we both enjoyed it. At least the dimechaerons make assault pretty fun again.

>>50942918
Vastness. You have nearly thirty years of canon. It doesn't matter that many things are contradictory, badly written, retconned out of existence, nonsensical and sometimes outright dumb. The sheer scope and and density of the lore draws people in. There are few settings that can rival 40k in the sheer amount of stuff that has been written about it.

>>50942918
it's a setting based on creative artists, tested tropes and grimderp

it just werks

>>50943092
One trick is to have them go to ground after purposely moving out of synapse. A blob of gants is hard to remove from an objective. Rippers are innately fearless so you can't go to ground with them and spore mines don't have obsec. I'm not saying they're great, but I've had some success using them that way.

That or podding in 20 (or mix and match) with devourers. Since you don't test IB the turn they come in, they get to level a unit of cultists or conscripts or whatever and, again, go to ground if out of synapse. They can be fun

>>50943169
Correction...spore mines can't hold objectives at all.

>rupture canons create implosions that can turn tanks inside out
>can't touch power armor

I am playign mainly tau but i also play my sister tyranid army since she prefer to paint and desing then play


most tyranid are overpiced for their strenght...

no armor save +2 on any units or a unit that can take a lot of beating before dying.

no more mutations to create custom army units

warrior are too costly too easy to kill a 6hp squad cost more than most exo armor/sentinels squad

troops arent cheap enough, they could be a bit weaker but be more numerous, I mean tis hard to have as much model as an imperial which is bullshit.

Finally nyds dont have good rules, for exemple tau are costly but their unit are overloaded with special rules.
Empire have order and the cheapest units
Marines got no truly bad units
ect...

>>50943204
Is your sister hot?

>>50935140
Adding Swarmlord, all nids are slaves to hive mind, except uber tyrant called swarmlord he can think for himself and is so unique there is only one in uniwerse(but he can die and be reborn).
Hivemind super genius, so leviatan will spread at half galaxy and lose everywhere instead of 1 or 2 mega big tendrils with will destroy everything.
Also
>biggest threat ever.
>get rekt by everyone, even tau

>>50943577
I wish they'd write a book about tyranids before they entered the galaxy--something set elsewhere where they can eat everything (or not) and it doesn't have direct 40k implications.

>>50935468

>they just need to obliterate one of the strongest space marine chapters and then make chaos looks good okay XD

fucking kill yourself

>>50942654
The Octarius canon is changed every edition.
Sometimes the Nids win. Sometimes the Orks. Once did the Eldar win...

>>50942918
I think it's the scope and action. You have a nearly infinite universe, and there's possibilities for combat everywhere. Not to mention the variety and characterization of each faction.

>>50943577
>Nids are slaves
Try cells of the body that is the Nid race.
The whole race is a single super organism traveling through space, nomming as it goes around.

>>50943774
No, it isn't. It's one continuous story.

>>50943774
No one wins, fights go on, Ghazgkhul deafited nids and nids send new tendrils of hive fleet.

I remember reading somewhere that the hive mind is purely made of psychic energy...does anyone have the fluff to confirm? I still secretly hope there's a planet-sized abomination out there which gives a physical presence to the hive mind rather than being the collective mental power of hive tyrants and other synapse creatures or whatever we're supposed to believe.

>>50943994
A hive mind doesn't mean the same thing as one brain that controls everything. Every nid has access to all the thoughts of the other Nids

>>50943994
Kinda, it's a minor chaos god so could break through to reality

>>50944066
Sure, but it's never clarified afaik, and even if they call it the hive mind, some shit needs explaining... for instance, can fleets communicate with each other? If they can, how? If there are answers to the above, why is actual synapse range so short in-game? Where does the hive mind deposit all its genetic knowledge? So many questions!

>>50943994
I'm sorry anon, but I really hope they don't do that.

>>50942639
How do you adapt to atom-disintegrating weaponry?

Also that fire is of obvious magical nature, I ain't gonna explain shit.

>>50944503
That's fine, but why's that? I have yet to meet someone that thinks the current (lack of) explanation is good. What would you rather see?

>>50935217
Tyranids are one of the three races that can actually win.

The other two being Chaos and Necrons.

>>50942918
How absolutely different it is from any other sci-fi.
It's outright marinated in masculinity, grimdarkness, edginees, sheer over-the-top 80's sci-fi (that's been evolved to the modern era), along with the fact that every faction can be described perfectly with a string of four to five nouns and adjectives.

Catholic space knight monk posthumans
WW2 soviets with WW1 tactics in space
Alien football hooligans
Ancient space elf bullshit fuckery
Edgy space elf bullshit fuckery
Satanic space knight barbarian posthumans
so on an so forth

>>50944738
Ok I know this is bait but...
Win Conditions:

Tau - surviving, being all communist and shit. Pretty likely.
Imperium - surviving. Not as likely since the emprah is veggies and everything hates them.
Ad Mech - hoard tech, stay alive. So far so good.
Orks - eternal war. You'd think war has to end eventually, but so far winning.
Eldar - be poncey elf faggots, totally winning.
Dark Eldar - Same as above but edgier
Chaos - can't ever win... gods hate each other, even if all other factions were wiped, they'd still be fighting themselves.
Nids - eat everything. Possible, but someone else would need to beat necrons.
Necrons - take over? It's less clear since old cron "take over everything" mentality is gone.

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>>50935140
>What went wrong?
They are so flipping cute that I would field them knowing I'd lose most games.

>>50942292
Coscripts fire more shots at longer ranges than Termagants

even with BS2, they're more likely to get a kill because they have more dakka

>>50942748
you're either lying, or everyone at your store is fucking incompetent.

>>50943092
they were great wqhen you had infinite numbers at them to throw at enemies as a meatshield

those days are gone, instead we get tervigons who explode and kill our entire swarm of gaunts

so fun.

>>50943535
its just a fact that all girl 40k players play nids.

>>50945300
Aren't termagant gun's significantly better, though? Lasguns are pretty much a joke, and rely entirely on weight of numbers to kill something (because even if only one in three shots hits, one in three of those wounds a space marine, and on in three saving throws fails, conscripts are cheap enough that you can throw enough shots to reliably kill one or two marines a turn), while I recall fleshborers actually having decent stats (around equivalent of bolters, so wounding marines half the time and ignoring the armour of most non-marine basic infantry).

>>50943861
which still means the swarmlord MAKE NO SENSE

fuck i hate the current nid fluff

>>50943994
Its the collective minds of all the tyranids, mostly the Dominatrixes. Its quite literally a hive mind.

If it had physical presence, it'd lose all value of being a hive mind.

>>50944287
Dominatrixes

they are the answer to all your questions.

>>50945424
No, Fleshborers are 12 inch assault 1 bolters

While 4 str is nice, usually beamspam from Conscripts is much much better because their weight of fire is better, and Termagants need weight of fire to kill anything anyways

Back when they could re-roll wounds, Fleshborers were THE FUCKING SHIT.

Bring back 4th ed, Make nids great again.

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>>50945418
I saw a girl who played Space Wolves today, and my friend's girlfriend has Chaos (although only because that's my friends original army that he gave her to play with when he switched to Orks). Other than that, though, every female 40k player I've met has had Nids. Well, one mostly palyed Eldar, but still also had a Nid army.
Nids do seem to be pretty popular with the ladies for some reason.

>>50945490
BECAUSE THEY'RE FUCKING ADORABLE.

too bad they're garbage. Pls GW just give us back 4th edition its all nid players want it was the best codex.

>>50945444
Would love to see a 40k dominatrix come out. GW doesn't seem to give a fuck about scale anymore so why not?
>>50945418
My girlfriend plays Necrons...

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>>50945507
But they have!

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>>50945502
I played Nids in 4th edition, and while the book would be a MASSIVE improvement over the shit they have now, I don't really think it was that great overall.

For one, it didn't really play like I feel Nids should, ie. hordes of little bugs being controlled by synapse creatures, with big bugs acting as linebreakers and centerpiece models. Instead it was "take warriors (since they're the cheapest HQ), two mandatory troops, and ALL THE CARNIFEXES". Biomorphs were awesome idea, but in practice 90% of the cool pieces in the carnifex kit were useless. The heads with huge tusks or long tongues, the huge crushing claws and scything talons, and the tail attachments or looked cool as hell, but if you wanted to make a viable fex you'd always give it that ugly +1bs head and either two pairs of twinlinked devourers (which looked really dumbe since you'd end up with four really tiny arms on the thing) or a barbed strangler and venom cannon.
And while eternal warrior while in synapse was great, it also made no sense fluff-wise. The explanation in the codex was that the will of the Hive Mind keeps the Nids fighting through injuries that should kill or cripple them, but isn't that what feel no pain is supposed to represent? It doesn't reall make any sense that the will of the Hive Mind doesn't have an effect on how many bolter shots it takes to kill my warriors but somehow lets them survive a direct hit from an orbital strike with minor damage. As a side now, have synapse grant feel no pain in the next Nid codex. That alone wouldn't fix nids, but would help since now the MCs would get some kind of save against most ap 3 or 2 weapons.

>>50935140
Faction of jobbing minibosses used to make flavor-of-the-week character look good.

>>50945644
Except Horde-nids were literally the best they have ever been in 4th ed because of great rules.

fex lists were cheesy, but not all that great compared to the absolute horror level of swarms you could do

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>tfw I got to talk with Andy friggin Chambers about the creation of the Tyranids, including their origins, aesthetics, and the design philosophy behind their rules.

They were intended to be the polar opposites of the Eldar. They were made to the most adaptive, and versatile army in the whole game, an army, which could be built so that no two squads of the same unit type, were entirely the same. The biomorph upgrades were a way for you to basically customize all of your units to your needs.

According to Chambers, they were nerfed over the different editions because the original vision was too easy to exploit

>>50945644
I agree, though I didn't play Nids I do remember them in 4th edition (I play Dark Eldar). There weren't really many effective ways to play them against a decently constructed army besides Nidzilla. Swarm was a nice concept but basically it boiled down to whittling enough of the frontliners so I could get a clear LoS for my dark lances to poke the synapse creatures without needing a Ld test. Wasn't really that difficult with a disintegrator ravager that I brought for marines.

I think the main problem with the 5th edition codex is that it continued this trend, tervigons excepted (another MC!) and all the hoopla about the new units turned into backlash when said units by and large sucked.

tl;dr Nids were almost monobuild even before their shitty 5ed codex.

>>50945744
3rd edition chambers dex is the very best dex in that terms

4th ed is great too though.

>>50945752
except swarm lists were literally doing their best in 4th edition, yes Nidzilla existed we get it. But it was also the time when swarm lists were actually good because of Without Number and good instinctive behavior rules

Why nids are weak?

>>50945812
because their units are shit unless you play flying circus which is fucking gay.

>>50945803
>good instinctive behavior rules

Thank god they fixed that

>>50945785
I wonder when we will get a new dex, and who will be writing it.
Better not be Cruddace again.

I wonder if Kelly could do them justice and restore some of the 3rd and 4th edition greatness.

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>>50945817
This.
I will never fucking use flyrants, or other nid fliers outside of gargoyles, because they look like SHIT.
Also, Hive Tyrant should be an implacable, towering alien conqueror that marches along the hordes of nids, decimating everything he sees with bioweapon fire and swift blows of his bonesword, not a giant fucking lizard bat dual wielding what amounts to organic smgs.
Flyrants are not dignified at all.

>>50945871
Yeah now nids just turn utterly retarded. So much fun.

>>50945895
It'll be Cruddace.

>>50945920
sorry your hive tyrants are just shitty version of the Swarmlord, who is the best hive tyrant but still gets his shit raped by every other character in 40k because i guess the nids are just retarded now and the swarmlord still makes NO FUCKING SENSE.

Are Tyranids still decent in Kill Team?

>>50945895
Given the current trend, probably not in a long time. Their current philosophy seems to be to release supplements with new units and minor rule updates instead of entirely new codices. The Tau book was the last "proper" codex they've done, and even that was just the old book with the stuff from the campaign book added and a lot of the fluff pages replaced with army colourschemes. And apparently the only reason they got that was because the change in design philosophy came after they had already contracted a printing company.

It's not a massive problem for books like Tau or Marines, where the basic rules are good or at least decent, and even Chaos got lot of the shittyness of the book fixed with the addition of the legion-specific rules from the new supplement, but for Nids, who would pretty much require a complete overhaul of army-wide rules and point costs, the future looks bleak.

>>50945424
Rapid fire and cheap cost means conscripts are very annoying for nids to play against. If the gants are close enough to fire, the conscripts are in rapid-fire range. They can easily kill charging gants/gaunts with overwatch.

Let's do math--1 conscript vs 1 gant.

The gant fires 1 shot at 12", hitting on 4s means a 50% chance of hitting, and wounding on 3's (S4, AP5 vs T3) comes out to a 1/3 chance of the gaunt wounding the conscript.

The conscript fires 2 shots BS2 so has a 2/3 chance of hitting. Then he wounds on 4's so that's now a 1/3 chance of wounding BUT the gant gets his 6+ armor save so that means the conscript wounds ~28% of the time. The conscript costs 25% less points than the gant, though, and when you factor that in, the conscript is better.

Also having had one of my hive tyrants shot out of the air by conscripts first turn before I could dent them really changed my view

>>50945619
That made me laugh way harder than I should've. Thanks anon

>>50935140

They are a villain faction that isn't chaos.

More importantly, they arguably represented a greater threat to the galaxy than Chaos did.

Since GW is increasingly chaosfag, the nids had to be retconned into being much weaker and more useless.

Kinda like the Necrons in that respect.

>>50946040
Kind of? You have to take warriors or you'll get fucked. Warriors and gants/devilgants, that's your list.

>>50946146
What is wrong with Lictors or genestealers then?

At least warrior brood with gaunts is a fluffy and fun list.

>>50946166
lictors are hard garbage

Stealers are ok

>>50946166
Lictors cost 50 points and get eaten by spawn or shot or flamed. Genestealers don't have guns and fucked in similar ways. For the points warriors are better in hand to hand, shoot, and take better advantage of specialist traits. You're pigeon-holing yourself taking pure melee, and each model is a unit, so being good at assault and getting shot next turn after you kill that one guardsman isn't really that great.

>>50946246
Warriors are still garbage though <3

>>50946252
In regular 40k yes. In killteam they do work

>>50946040
The Nid issues are arguably even worse in Kill Team, because for some reason, the rules writers didn't decide to get rid of Instinctive Behavior like they did for Orks with Mob Rule. So most lists require synapse. However, Zoanthropes don't work in Kill Team (because of the issues with Brotherhood of Psykers), meaning the only viable synapse source is the Warrior, so 90% of all Tyranid KT lists have the same core. I'm really fucking salty about this -- it would've taken 10 minutes worth of thought to make Tyranids vastly more interesting in the new format, but GW couldn't be arsed to put in the work.

>>50946264
it doens't even make sense, wouldn't the hive mind create specialized units for kill teams that aren't synapse reliant like lictors and genestealers?

the answer is yes, yes it would

fuck GW

>>50943668
I think he's saying that Chaos will job to the Nids, not the other way around.

>>50946264
I totally agree. There is no viable synapse unit other than warriors in KT.

Actually, just letting Zoanthropes be psyker lvl 1 would help mitigate things. We did this a couple of times before realizing "no brotherhood of psykers" didn't mean "you have no psychic level at all" and I won once and got facerolled the other time.

I still enjoy killteam, but after experimenting over and over, nothing beats 4 bone-stock warriors and gants.

>>50946413
*as far as a nid list goes. A single hellhound will rape it to death.

>>50946413
Whoops. *did mean, not didn't.

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>>50946264
Who are you playing Kill Team with?

And are they completely insensible to saying "Oh, yeah, that makes sense. Sure, we'll just get rid of the synapse thing."

Or go with the Heralds of Ruin rules.

>>50946497
Other anon, but people I play with like to see what happens when I lose synapse, and it's like a sub-game for them to try to make me lose it, I think.

>>50946831
how is that fun.

>>50946497
That would never fly in kill team league

>>50946882
Shautenfreude? The same fun someone gets from pushing the first domino over?

>>50946264
To be fair, synapse means you don't take break tests, because fearless. This is a big advantage.

>>50935140
After Blizzard made their organic Zerg, GW had to make the Giger-ish Nids turn into Lizard Bugs.

They were still good until Cruddance nerfed them little by little.

Now they regained some of their awesome, but they really need to buff back the Swarmlord.

>>50935546
Speaking of the devil...

>>50947018
>buff the swarmlord

no they should remove him from the game, nids shouldn't have special characters.

>>50946978
Not really in the face of >kill your synapse unit now your unit might as well not be on the board.

>>50947034
>nids shouldn't have special characters

THEN MAYBE REMOVE NIDS AND SIMPLY BE DONE WITH IT!?

FORGET IT!

In fact, I'd want them also to remake Old One Eyed, Deathleaper and the Red Terror rules-wise (to be efficient) and have new models.

>>50947076
??????

Explain to me why a horrifying swarm of utterly alien creatures that are all part of a greater being would have 'special characters'

Answer they wouldn't and it was retarded. The Swarmlord is the epitome of this retardation because the thing has NAMES. Which is fucking STUPID.

4th ed dex remains best.

>>50947076
Deathleaper would be amazing if he conveyed his "you can only fire snapshots at him" rule to units he joins.

>>50947098
Specialized Bio-Morphs for very special jobs.

Also agreed that 4th ED dex is best dex.

>>50947120
That would be very useful against shooty armies.

>>50947098
But nids evolve, anon.

>>50947147
>nids evolve
>RANDOM SMART HIVE TYRANT THAT IS SMARTER AND THERE'S ONLY ONE AND HE HAS NAMES AND HE'S THE BESTEST BUT PAPASMURF STILL BEATS HIM EVEN IF HE LOSES ONCE

retarded

Tyranids exist to remind us all that Chaos doesn't have a monopoly on whiny ass bitches

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>>50947076
The hell are you talking about, removing the Swarmlord would improve them to no end. Those unique monsters make sense, the Swarmlord is just dumb.

His gimmick reminds me of that villain from the shitty Evolution cartoon who just came back every time the good guys killed him.

>>50947186
Wanting your army to actually be worth playing, especially in a fluffy way does not make you a whiner.

Their codex is a joke and you would have to be a complete asshole to criticise someone for having a problem with that. There is a reason both Chaos and Tyranid players remember 3rd/4th fondly.

>>50947228
Seconded. Whining implies there's no justification.
>>50947186
You mean CSM. Chaos demons are one of the best armies in the game anon.

>>50947186
Every single sub-fanbase of 40k is a bunch of whiny fucks. Every. Single. One.

>>50947098
I'm fine with some special characters as a showcase of the hyperadaptation the Tyranids are meant to have, leading to the occasional one off monstrousity that earns a name for itself from the terror it sows among the other races that have to go up against them and the legends they spread about them. Old one eye, the red terror, the parasite of mortrex, doom of malantai and deathleaper are all good in my book, not special characters in the way other armies have them as their great heroes, just particular nasty horrors that managed to prey on the fears of their foes. The Hivefleets might deploy copies similar to these creatures when its appropriate, but most of the time they're too hyperspecialised to be used, so they stay as stories rather than officially classified strains.

The Swarmlord is definitely the way not to to do it though, it's written as just a Hive Tyrant+ so it makes no sense they fleet wouldn't just make all Tyrants that good.

>>50943161
I just started reading the Foundation series by Asimov, and holy shit people were not kidding when they said 40k is a ripoff

>>50947340
>>50947188
>>50947098
I wouldn't mind him if he didn't suck complete butthole. Being forced to add 1 to my reserve rolls and calling the rule "alien cunning" must be an ironic joke.

>>50947188
BUT THAT'S THE POINT OF HIVE TYRANTS IN GENERAL. They are to some point individuals that exist to get a planet/system/sector/whatever for the Swarm to eat.

The Swarmlord happens to be a more powerful and cunning Tyrant that also is something akin to an avatar of the Hive Mind. Not to mention that there are more than one Swarmlords thus he's not some special snowflake.

Though they should expand that creating/re-creating the Swarmlord is something akin to a special investment that costs the Hive Mind a lot of power to manifest.

Also gonna need to look at that Evolution cartoon.

>>50947345
40K rips-off a lot of genres. A LOT.

>>50947397
thats wrong and retarded

>>50947420
Whatever.

>>50947397
>HIVE TYRANTS
>INDIVIDUALS

BUT THATS WRONG YOU SHIT

>THE SWARMLORD HAPPENS TO BE A MORE POWERFUL TYRANT

THAT MAKES NO SENSE YOU IDIOT, EVERY TYRANID EVER CREATED BY THE HIVEMIND IS MEANT TO BE AS POWERFUL AS POSSIBLE, THEY HAVE EVOLVED THAT WAY.

>SPECIAL INVESTMENT THAT COSTS A LOT OF POWER

???
what fucking power? Its just fucking biomass.

Jesus fucking christ this is so retarded you should jump off a bridge.

>>50944589
Collective mind is fine, I would hate personification and hives are funnier without queens.

>>50947470
>Never heard about the Dagon Tyrant

Also tried to fall of the bridge.

The concrete absorbed the fall.

The bridge failed to kill me.

>>50947470
>every tyranid is meant to be as powerful as possible
Please explain pyrovores and the haruspex anon

>>50947504
I want to die

>>50947502
Kill me.

>>50947532
How can I kill you when you're probably on the other side of the world?

>>50947546
i don't know, find a way.

>>50947553
THE SENTENCE IS LIFE.

BEAR IT FOR THE REST OF YOUR DAYS.

>>50947567
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>50947575
You want to die?

THEN MAKE THE SWARMLORD MAKE SENSE.

Then you have my permission to die.

>>50947340
>The Swarmlord is definitely the way not to to do it though, it's written as just a Hive Tyrant+ so it makes no sense they fleet wouldn't just make all Tyrants that good.
Probably just an efficiency thing.

>>50947470
>THAT MAKES NO SENSE YOU IDIOT, EVERY TYRANID EVER CREATED BY THE HIVEMIND IS MEANT TO BE AS POWERFUL AS POSSIBLE, THEY HAVE EVOLVED THAT WAY.
>>SPECIAL INVESTMENT THAT COSTS A LOT OF POWER
>???
>what fucking power? Its just fucking biomass.
Biomass conversion loses energy to heat. Maybe the adaptations burn out full blown "Swarmlord" level bodies faster than standard Hive Tyrants/

>>50947593
i don't want him to make sense, I want him not to exist

>>50947603
But its better in every way.

Every. Way.

>>50947614
>I want him not to exist

THAT'S NOT AN OPTION.

YOU EITHER MAKE HIM MAKE SENSE OR LIVE FOREVER BEGGING FOR DEATH.

>>50947636
BUT HE MAKES NO SENSE

HE MAKES NO SENSE

THERE IS NO WAY TO MAKE HIM MAKE SENSE

>>50947614
It can't fly and it thinks there's a tactical advantage in waiting to use reserve troops. It might be unique but it's not better, anon. I agree the fluff saying it's "smarter" doesn't make much sense, and it doesn't have a personality.

>>50947660
I mean in universe its better

mechanically its garbage which is even funnier

>>50947653
There always is.

Everything can make sense if you revamp them.

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU? A CONSCRIPT THAT GOT A CRASH-COURSE IN LASGUN USE?

QUIT WHINING AND START WORKING ON IT!

>>50947666
It's true. Nice trips. I think it'd be funny if the tyranid ICs were just regular units that were mistaken for each other by imperials who can't fathom the idea of a hive mind.

>>50947716
thats pretty much what they were at one point but the modern fluff does not reflect that

>>50947691
there's no way to make a 'tyrant+' make sense especially not TACTICAL GENIUS tyrant+

>>50947716
Or somehow the psychic energy created by fear actually created exceptional traits in one nid, somehow.

>>50947764
but no one nid should ever have 'exceptional traits'

Nid ICs make sense as one-off evolutions designed for a very specific purpose, like the Deathleaper, the Doom of Malantai, and the Parasite of Mortrex

>>50947603
>But its better in every way.
>Every. Way.
Every Way in combat, not logistics.

>>50947782
Ehhh agreed but with that logic OOE almost makes sense because he was isolated.

>>50947794
>nigh infinite biomass
>caring about logistics
>literally will throw millions of gaunts at defending forces to run them out of ammo
>logistics

You really underestimate how few fucks the nids give about logistics.

>>50944968
>Chaos - can't ever win because they fight themselves
wait, what ? Them fighting amongst themselves isn't a proof that they can't win, it's just another aspect of chaos
Not saying that chaos will win, or that it could win, but this is a pretty dumb argument

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>>50946890
Why not?

Also, build your own league, or run a campaign with friends.

Alternatively, is winning games that important?

>>50944893
>posthumans
Nah, just super-humans

>>50947970
But anon, "chaos" doesn't literally win if the concept of chaos spreads--each god has its own agenda and afaik can't be killed, and they can't kill everyone because psychic energy sustains them. They are fluffed to fail.

>>50947974
Because league is basically a long-running tournament, and it'd be like bringing an unofficial Codex.
>Is winning games that important?
No, which is why I'm not saying other people should change the rules for me. I don't follow your logic.

Not too close to tabletop 40k but the swarmlord always did strike me as real weird in a negative way. I'm fine with the others like old one eye since you can fluff those as being far enough away from the hivemind that they funded their own evolution in a very specialized way that they thought was relevant and the reason its not reproduced is simply formation/gestation time. Having 5 ravenors right damn now might work out better in the Hive Mind's eye than 1 really good one in a little bit. But there is zero reason for there to be only one swarmlord unless the fucking Hive Mind somehow lost the damn recipe when it will always result in a net gain in biomass by way of being the fucking swarmlord. Unless the thought of gestating it for a planet will take too long to the point where its not even needed which might work but why would hive tyrants be produced at such a faster rate that they can be in these fights that a swarmlord couldn't make it to?

>>50935140
The shorter thread would have been "what went right"

>>50948111
no that's always bothered me too. old one eye and the red terror were solo operatives, more or less. same for deathleaper even though he was introduced in 5th ed. doom of mal'antai can be justified as one-time warp fuckery, and the parasite of mortrex literally showed up once.

but the swarmlord doesn't make a lot of sense to me because if you can make one and regenerate it as needed, why not make a bunch?

>>50947098
>Explain to me why a horrifying swarm of utterly alien creatures that are all part of a greater being would have 'special characters'
Because basically every creature that composes it is slightly different than it's brothers ? I thought this was one of the basics of the nids, you know, their ability to adapt

>>50948331
... Are you just retarded? How does that justify the swarmlord you stupid fucking nigger

>>50948036
>they can't kill everyone because psychic energy sustains them
I'm pretty sure the reason that the warp truely emerged (before slaneesh) was that the old one's souls were so potent that them joining the realm of souls caused the balance to be broken

However, if you're actually saying that chaos fighting the rest of the universe is actually undermining them when saying "chaos is fighting themselves", then I'm sorry, I thought you talked about them actually fighting themselves (which happens but isn't by itself a problem to their "win")
If that's the case, then we agree, I don't believe in their win either, chaos would only serve as a boost for the imperium if it was fixed/balanced again, and that's pretty much their only future except simply being there

>>50948111
but since the swarmlord is immortal, doesn't that makes it a good reason for being only one swarmlord ?
I'm not talking about the swarmlord's physical form being immortal, but his mind, if it wasn't clear

>>50948471
you missed the point, the poster that I replied to wanted to know why special characters would make sense inside of the Tyrannid armies, to which I answered

>>50948537
Not really. A swarmlord is a superior hive tyrant. Anywhere a hive tyrant appears there should be a reason why its not a swarmlord since it will always get results. Unless keeping the 'mind' is such a fucking massive strain on the Hive Mind in which case it should drop the swarm lord and use the freed up hard drive space for more other shit so it can sweep the smaller planets even faster.

>>50945920
I like the way Flyrants because in the "fantasy in space" setting of 40k, they pulled off a "space dragon" fucking beautifully. I would go so far as to say it's one of my favourite GW models.

Though to be fair I vastly prefer them with scything talons.

>>50948571
Somewhere there are thousands of gaunts whose only purpose is backup storage for the Swarmlords consciousness.

>>50948571
Sorry if I'm wrong here, but several hive tyrants exist at any given time, right ?
From what I know, the swarmlord is one speshul tyrannid mind that is somehow seperated from the hivemind and also happen to be a tacticool genius. Idk if he is actually physically stronger than other swarmlords, but if that's the case, it may be bullshit
Now hear me out. From what we know, the 'nids come from another galaxy, and may well have visited (read, eaten) a few others. The whole universe may even have like 30% of it eaten already. Now, if you had like one, or a few very special generals, that not only are stronger but also smarter and also cannot die, would you throw all of them on a single conflict ? Of course not, you try to make the best use of them across the huge territory that you try to swallow. There's no proof that the swarmlord, or any potentially similar creatures aren't aboard the latest hive fleets, but we will probably never see them because GW are faggots
Now, this is only how it makes sense to me. It's not cannon approved, and it certainly needs a few fixes in order to be so, so I'd like complains about stuff so that I could try to find excuses reasons

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>>50942748
>a base fex is still amazing
Against helpless vehicles? Sure, but other than that...

>>50948773
which is retarded.

>>50935140
give them something that can charge out of deep strike, give some of their MC an invul save. they're fine otherwise.

>>50935682
>Tyranid Warriors are literally useless.
but they can have poisoned attacks and rending claws, get good.

>>50949007
no they're not

It really boggles my mind that the 40k community is so adamantly against house rules and fandexes. On the other side of the /tg/ house we employ house rules aplenty to fix up the myriad issues that RPGs have and entire games (Fate's aspects, Exalted's charms) have extremely core systems that fully expect the players to brew up their own stuff.

>>50942629
Having the Extended Carapace biomorph back would be such a boon. Personally from a flavour perspective I'd like to see non-Synapse units each have a different bonus for being in Synapse. i.e. Hormagaunts in Synapse get to treat one of the dice on their charge roll as a six automatically.

>>50949040
and yet they're still garbage in their current form because they die easy as fuck

>>50936574
thats just your opinion tho. My buddies dad started playing 40k about 2 years ago and he loves the nids. He grew up watching all the alien movies when they first came out and just loves the idea of the nids. he says nids are the most advanced xeno "bug" species in any sci fi setting, they blow zerg, aliens, and the bugs from starship troopers outta the water. hes got a fucking huge army of them now and always goes on about the lore, its good times.

>>50949060
>40k community is so adamantly against house rules and fandexes
Not for nothing but its not like 40k is played purely with other fa/tg/uys. If you're just heading down the the local game shop you have to convince everybody not only that your army is weak enough to deserve a fix, something we're having trouble doing with a couple dummies here, but that your homerules will actually fix their problems without making them broken.
Now some people may love to help you test through it but others just want to play the game so you'd have a real hard time making anything of it.

>>50949054
its an all melee army with limited but effective range. if you don't know how to play that kind of army then pick something else.

>>50949062
yea they die too easily, thats basically the nids big weakness right now they just get shot to pieces. If you gave them formations that let them charge outta deep strike and tossed a few invul saves, or at the very least some cover saves here and there, it would help them alot without changing the flavour of the army.

>>50949060
>It really boggles my mind that the 40k community is so adamantly against house rules and fandexes.
thats why you gotta just play with your buddies. you can't expect someone you just met at the shop to play by your custom rules.

>>50949140
>nids
>all melee

????

All you do with nids is flying circus you shit anything else is garbage.

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>>50948190
>why not make a bunch?
Because it has a "soul".

>>50949215
yes literally all 100% melee with 0 ranged weapons available, you fucking autist

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Nids should be made more swarmy again.
Also, these niggas need to be buffed.

>>50949245
But nobody does assault anymore

BECAUSE ITS GARBAGE

Literally Nids are a flying shooty army right now, it sounds like you literlaly have no fucking idea what you're talking about

Why the fuck would nids ever get into an assault?

>>50949255
they just need eternal warrior and +4 saves as default

>>50949412
Meh, just make them toughness 5.

>>50945744
>Meanwhile Eldar and Tau players can exploit theirs like there's no tomorrow
>this is somehow fine

Chambers deserves a squad of Hormagaunts up his ass.

>>50949466
do something at least holy fuck

>>50949485
Chamber's isn't the one that nerfed them you moron.
He only made the third edition dex.

>>50949255
warriors are in the same boat as termies. yes termies can take heavy weapons and come with power fists, yes they can deep strike. but 200 pts for a 5 man squad thats only t4 and 5++ save just doesn't seem like a good idea, and thats before upgrades. with the amount of ap1-2 weapons that people have access to I haven't used terminators in a very long time.

>>50940111
It's from the first Alien movie when Ripley and Parker are the last ones left in an escape pod and Ripley has a dream.

>>50945644
>nd while eternal warrior while in synapse was great, it also made no sense fluff-wise. The explanation in the codex was that the will of the Hive Mind keeps the Nids fighting through injuries that should kill or cripple them, but isn't that what feel no pain is supposed to represent?
I always imagined it as the hive mind kept the body moving, even if it should not anymore. Like a remote controled zombie.
Whereas feel no pain is just shrugging off painful wounds that would hinder you in battle.

The former gets practically torn to pieces and somehow still moves and kills shit.
The latter gets torn to pieces and is dead.

>>50949523
Crudd and Chambers did the 5th.
Chambers also did the 4th with Kelly, he was mostly responsible for the nerfhammer that was the 5th

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this is how i play my tyranids

always loved swarm armies with large monsters intermingled.

and ives always loved genestrealers, the genestealer cult book finally makes them usuable.

>>50949689
>CHAMBERS DID THE 5TH

rofl now you're spouting bs he didn't even work for GW at that point

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>>50949825
>That cramped Elite section
Gets me every time. I need Zoans for Synapse and Venoms/Malans for Shrouded, but I never have room for Hive Guards or any other Elites

>>50944580
probably with reactive repeated directional nuclear explosions.

>>50949689
Crud, is that you? Pretty pathetic trying to shunt the blame; just admit you were a little bitch about being outplayed, and that giant murderachnids should be able to merc a tank--especially if you were stupid enough to let it get hit.

You fucked with a fun, flexible army and made it un-fun--everyone knows it, and everyone hates you for it. Maybe man-up and admit your mistake and apologize. That'd go a long way towards turning things around.

Then, let someone who isn't a partisan hack design the next codex.

>>50949825
>2005 points
What kind of game are you playing that it's 2005 points?

>>50950016
A 2005 pt game?

>>50949825
>2005 pts
surely there is something you can remove or change to make it an even 2k. I never have any problems hitting my exact points limit, and seeing people do that kind of stuff triggers me.

>>50940111
I hate myself for this but
>myfetish.gif

It's appeared in my magical realm often enough I'm actually a bit worried.

>>50947034
>>50947076

I have to say that while there are some cool special nids characters I agree that it shouldnt be a hero like for eldar or space mangs. Rather it should be a rare legend of a monstrosity, e.g. The Red Terror. The swarm lord is cool but he has to much character to him.

Here is how I say you fix nids.
Every enemy you kill, you get his points worth in new nids.

just give nids the ability to infest things instead of destroying them so they can take control of enemy tanks and shit.

>>50950278
This is me being subjective and I should add I dislike many things in Starcraft, I think this is a bad idea for nids.

>>50950323
not all of them but would be cool if one unit could do it. or just beef up genestealer cults model range to get nid players to use them more often.

>>50950278
thats pretty lame

>>50950048
>>50950016


just remove a lashwip and its 2000.

>>50942918
I always like settings where humans kill the aliens instead of trying to befriend them and 40k is all about that.

Seriously though. Can someone give me an actual reason for why girls love nids? Empirically I know this to be true but am curious as to why.

>>50950920
Well, I got no vagina, but I like tyranids because giant space bug-dinosaurs are cool. So it's probably that or tentacles.

>>50950920
they're dorbs.

>>50951050
I think it's the tentacles though rippers are actually quite cute.

>>50951077
I hate to say it but you might be right.

They're also the faction that gives you the most freedom in how you paint them.

>>50951118
Of course im right its why i play them

they are dorbs as fuck

>>50950920
They like the idea of being a brood-mother of an intergalactic alien swarm that is set out to devour EVERYTHING

>>50950094
Worried about what?

Also, there's a certain website that rhymes with "sad flagon" that sells a specialty toy just for this.

>>50952059
actually that thing isn't a bd toy not that i'm an expert or anything nope not at all

>>50952103
Oh yeah, you're probably right.

>>50952461
I'm absolutely right

>>50949104
The thing is, Tyranids use to be much more than they were.

The blurb in the Genestealer Cult book about them attacking your logistics lines and whatnot at the same time? It referred to Tyranids as a whole originally. Into the Belly of the Beast involves either the Hive Mind or some sort of sapient Synapse psyker within the vessel making mental contact with a Space Wolf and trying to turn them against their peers with the promise of individuality and greater potential within the swarm (At the same time probing their defenses so as to know how best to distract them long enough to eat regardless of their reception). Extensive biological warfare (millions of tonnes of various spores) would be dumped in the atmosphere long before the ground forces proper made any sort of planetfall. Specialist weapons could be distributed within broods (instead of broods of solely one weapon type), as well as the odd thing like Synaptic Gaunts or such.

Also, a tangent, but there's more advanced bugs in other Sci-Fi settings. One of the more obscure but obvious examples being the Vortex in the Ecco series. Surprisingly eco-friendly, too, as far as intergalactic locusts come.

>>50942918
It combines familiar concepts from space opera (psychic powers, hyper space, galactic empires, etc) in unfamiliar ways. Most especially it is a grim setting focused on pointless conflict, while much of scifi is hopeful and progressive. Human beings have a darkside. We like conflict and destruction; 40K panders to that shamelessly without dressing it up in petty rationalizations and moral justifications.

>>50952922
too be fair 3rd ed was a little too weird and allowed things like swarms of Rippers with venom cannons

>>50935140
Short Answer: That dumbfuck Cruddace.

Long Answer: I could write a fucking 30 page thesis paper on this.

There is no Codex in all of 40k that needs to be completely scrapped and overhauled from the ground up half as badly as Tyranids.

I mean what DIDNT they get wrong? Anyone have an example of something they did right? Anything?

>>50953319
the exocrine is ok?

>>50949689
Literally what the fuck are you talking about.

Chambers wrote the 2nd and 3rd ed dexes, Phil Kelly did the 4th ed using the fluff written by Chambers but even at that point Chambers was no longer working for GW.

Cruddace is the cockmuncher that came along in 5th and completely ruined them and then did it harder again with the current Codex in 6th.

Phil Kelly is basically our hope that they get fixed in 8th since his 4th edition Nid Codex was one of the top 3 best rulebooks ever put out by GW.

>>50953342
Exocrines in the fluff are supposed to be extremely long range artillery bombardment organisms, like the equivalent of an IG basilisk.

It has a fucking 24" range.

>>50953363
Phil Kelly got some help from Chambers on 4th if i remember

But holy shit 4th ed codex is perfection

>>50953382
i know but its at least useable unlike the other shit that was added

>>50953393
He credited Chambers with helping with the 4th because he basically copypasted all his old fluff into it from the previous dex and then added some more on top, but for the most part it was his.

>>50953400
"Usable" doesn't mean they got it right, I don't want the bar being set that fucking low.

>>50953429
to be fair he also streamlined the 'make your own hive fleet system' and mostly incorporated it fully into the codex proper under entries.

3rd ed codex provided excellent foundations for 4th to build off of, and 4th executed masterfully to create probably my favorite codex in all of 40k.

>>50953453
Pretty much this, yeah.

I think the fact that 4e Tyranids was such a masterpiece is why it hurts so much more that Cruddace brought them to ruin with the next update. There's falling from mediocrity to trash and there's falling from thing of beauty to trash.

>>50953472
Cruddexes are so fucking bad

>>50949273
>Why the fuck would nids ever get into an assault?
So they can get their asses pounded by the armor save ignoring invulnerable save and/or feel no pain having, high initiative assault units that actual assault armies have because you want to lose?

>>50953600
haha oh yes how could i forget

The literal army of close combat bug monsters that has exactly 0 viable close combat units

Thats the good shit

>>50953472
Also, PYROVORES. I cannot stress that enough. It was literally just a heavy flamer. In an elite slot. For like 70 points.

It's the true proof that absolutely nothing in the 5e codex got playtested even a little. Even though they tried to make all of the new models must-haves (like Hive Guard) so even longtime collectors would have to buy more stuff to stay competitive... pyrovores.

Pyrovores, man.

>>50953639
Hive guard have been around since 3rd ed though.

also

>pyrovores

Don't you mean counts as biovores because holy fuck they make good looking biovores

>>50953630
Genestealers and Hormagaunts are both okay and in a push a tervigon can sometimes kill some stuff in an assault.

But their "high end" close combat units are hilariously bad.

Will we ever get a 7th ed Nid and Guard codex or has GW completely abandoned them?

>>50953673
Tyrant Guard have been around since 3rd. Hive Guard were new with 5th.

>>50953673
Hive guard suck. BS3 kills their effectiveness.

I think it's unfair to hate on the Hive Guard when units like Maleceptors exist.

>>50953745
>>50953730
oh right right

>>50953745
They suck NOW. When 5e first came out they were pretty much the best unit in the book, and everyone had at least 6 of them. Which led to one of the primary complaints about the 5e book, which was that it existed for the sole purpose of making all the 4e staples garbage and the new units amazing, just to sell models to oldfags who already had 8000-point armies.

>>50953720
We probably won't get updates til after 8th so they aren't invalidated by the new core rules.

>>50953786
i find it hillarious that the hive mind, and the tyranids, who are supposedly the pinnacle of evolution, have a bunch of absolutely worthless units that are never ever worth playing like the pyrovore and maleceptor and haruspex and just like fucking everything.

>>50953962
I don't even understand what the three units you mentioned are even supposed to be for.

>>50953716
>Genestealers and Hormagaunts are both okay
All Genestealers should be what the Purestrains in the new GSC Codex are, and have access to Flesh Hooks too.

Hormagaunts need to be significantly faster, like +3" to move, run and charge not just run, and they need their WS 4 back.

>>50954011
neither does GW

>>50953630
The dimechaeron may be FW, but it's great in CC anon. I have 3.

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>>50954011
The pyrovore should be a torrent flamer platform, but until the FAQ it was literally a bomb waiting to go off.
The Haruspex should have been a great distraction carnifex, eating huge messes of troops. Instead it's WS2 and takes up an elite slot. Great model though--one of my faves.
The Malaceptor should have been a heavy support psyker to give psyker she in every slot...instead...well it's utter shit.

>>50955204
I need to stop taking vertical pictures

>>50955204
Haruspex is WS3, but pretty spot on nonetheless. It's mostly a case of units that can't do what it says on the tin. Tyrannofexes can't implode tanks, genestealers suck at MGSing their way around the enemy, Warriors are the most vulnerable nodes in the swarm....The list is endless.

>>50950920
Horse dick guns

I played Tyranids from 2nd to 4 or 5 months into 6th. My friends and I felt that by 6th the game just hadn't been fun in a long time. I broke down and sold my army when I was going through a rough patch and needed some money. I haven't kept up with 40k much since, I've moved on to a different game. This thread made me nostalgic and very very sad. I hope one day you all get the relentless alien dread you deserve.

>>50948474
That is what I meant.

>>50955748
They can still be fun Anon. Just play them on a Zone Mortalis board.

This was a good thread. Thanks OP

>>50935468

Did they not almost take out the ultras on some snow planet? Then the ultras made nid hunters of the remnants?