D&D armour is boring

Two types:
Rigid armors helps to deflect blows, increasing AC.
Flexible armors absorb blows, by giving you extra HP.

The "include AC to class" is a lazy way, because you're removing options. A game should always be about choices.

Remove Armor from AC calculation and have it do something else. There is no other option. As long as armor is going to be the ultimate say on what your AC is, the highest boost will often win over save for certain cases in which a class has better options available to them through design or limitations. The second Armor becomes less about AC and more about something else, it can become interesting again.

>>50896648
AC still trumps here, because more HP does jack and shit when large numbers of damage come at you. Not being hit at all is still the optimal path, so the choice is really a pointless one unless a class is only tied to flexible armor by some reason or another.

>>50896648

If an option isn't a real choice, removing it is a good idea, reducing bloat.

>>50895692
>You always go for the heaviest your class can wear unless you have some specific ability to get a bonus for wearing lighter armour.

Or unless you have a set of magic armor that is of a lower grade, but its enhancement bonus makes it as good as the heaviest armor you can wear; i.e., half-plate +1 is just as good as full plate for a fraction of the weight.

Or unless you have a set of magic armor that provides a worse AC bonus, but its magical effect is good enough/cool enough that you don't mind the lower hit; i.e., I don't care how much better off I'd be in full plate, if I get my hands on a set of dragon scale, I'm wearing it.

Side note, how in God's name have you people not remembered that fucking magic exists in D&D? You're going on about class benefits and stuff while completely forgetting boss stuff like Efreeti chain, armor of the deep, the aforementioned dragon scale armor, and so on.

>>50896887

The whole point was making mundane armor choice matter without magic.

Related question:

In the context of D&D and its offspring, how would you "fix" armor without also having to rewrite every NPC stat block?

>>50896939
That's only a problem in shitfinder.

>>50896648
> AC deflecting blows
> more HP
don't perpetuate the cancer

>>50895692
The two most obvious options would be either different resistances for different damage types, or more exact and significant impediments from wearing heavier armors.The fact of the matter is that irl plate did ultimately take over until guns rolled around, and actually in OG D&D it was stated that most adventurers didn't bother with heavy armors because magic effectively had the same impact on the development of armors as guns did; which is why it's armors sort of piddle around with minimal differences between the two, and then suddenly jump up to the "Platemail," which was not just a misnamed suit of plates, as many people erroneously assume, but indeed more of an iron-man situation where the plates were all fitted and fastened together.

A summarized version of my house-rules would go something like this:
Padded
> DR 2/Blunt, Piercing, Energy. -0 AP
Leather
> DR 4/Blunt, Energy. -1 AP
Mail
> DR 8/Blunt, Piercing, Energy. -2 AP
Plate
> DR 12/Blunt, Energy. -4 AP

With DR being halved against any listed damage types, and AP being subtracted from any check rolled for actions related to mobility, subtly, or spell-casting; climbing, running, sneaking, and of course casting spells.

>>50896887
Yeah but Pathfinder removed all the unique armors and magic marts were a requirement in 3.pf games. Armor means more now because it takes a while to afford it and magical armor isn't just applying any benefit to any armor. I have had the same experience with other games that do armor right.

That said, I think D&D should wildly change their HP calculation. HP should be a combination of Constitution, Class, Armor, and Enhancements. That way armor is *both* an abstraction for how hard it is to land a blow and damage reduction (by increasing HP). It also removes some of the HP abstraction complaints - X HP threshold is your armor, Y HP is your class, and Z HP is your toughness. It also allows shocking grasp to be "ignore metal armor HP" and damage could be split between pools where only your Constitution pool being at 0 means death.

>>50896938
The whole point is that no one is going to wear mundane armor if there is a magic armor choice that is around as good.

>>50896992
>Yeah but Pathfinder removed all the unique armors

I gots me an SRD says different.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/magicItems/armor.html

Banded mail of luck, demon armor, dragonhide plate, mithral full plate of speed, all of them are listed there, and I presume that there's more beyond just the core rulebook.

However, you should be playing 5e, not Pathfinder.

> It also allows shocking grasp to be "ignore metal armor HP"

You do know that even in a suit of full plate, the actual metal isn't touching you, right? Except possibly in the helmet. Otherwise you generally wear several layers of cloth underneath the armor that is perfectly justified in negating any additional damage from shocking grasp.

Though on that note, metal only conducts electricity, it doesn't enhance it in any way. And it's actually not nearly as good as conducting electricity as the human body is regardless.

You're getting a bit too granular, is my point.

>>50895692
Heavier armour was always better irl, at least for battle itself. There's literally nothing wrong with that, if anything what D&D and a lot of other games do wrong is making you wear an inferior armor fo reasons not related to price or availability.

Since level zero every character should always be able to wear the heavier armour he can afford to pay and find. Only in situations unrelated to combat should lesser armor be considered.

>>50895692
Not to mention that armour makes no sense to begin with. Ring mail and studded leather???
And the illustrations make little sense as well. Research is not the strong suit of their artists.

>>50897049
I'm using a classic D&D example. In reality full plate armor would be safer than light leather armor with magical lightning, but here we are.

I'm just saying making HP more granular fixes the AC and HP abstraction complaint and opens more mecanical interactions. For example:

Your "toughness" HP = 10 + your constitution modifier.

Your class gives HD (or average) each level. When this pool is at 0 you have some debuff condition like exhaustion.

Your armor gives some HP, let's say 20 for plate. At 0HP there is damage to the armor requiring time and effort (or magic) to fix.

The heavy armor could also replenish itself for 4HP/round even at 0 armor HP, while light armor could replenish at 1HP/round. Class abilities/spells could ignore armor or deal double damage to armor. Magic enhancement could fiddle with armor HP, special materials could increase regen. Stuff like that.

The key is in making sure HP as a whole is lowered to make room for armor HP and not just add it on top.

>>50897127
>Your armor gives some HP, let's say 20 for plate

So it's only good for about two hits?

>The heavy armor could also replenish itself for 4HP/round even at 0 armor HP, while light armor could replenish at 1HP/round

...the armor regenerates?

I think you're better off making the armor add DR rather than HP.

I've considered cutting armor out all together save for magic armor. There seems little point to it really, since nothing seems to work well for my tables needs.

>>50896648
>you're removing options. A game should always be about choices.
And 3.pf's biggest problem is that it has "choices", but some of those choices are objectively wrong and do not actually work.
The entire AC system in 3.PF is shit.

>>50896739
Fucking this.

Trying to force choices and subsystems everywhere begets more complex mechanics. Unless you want to try making the game more simulationist (and although I dislike that, you're free to have that preference), there's really no point in adding more mechanics for the sake of a mechanic that already does its job well. There's a reason armor and weapon rules have been becoming more and more simple, as the editions went.

That said, if I wanted to do it...

Since I'm a gamist shit, my idea would be for the player to set the "weight" of the character (either by selecting how heavy armor he wears, or leaving that up to the narrative); heavy characters move slower, but resist forced movement effects better (including shit like traps that try to slide/push you down into spikes), and possibly move others better (including busting doors open).

This'd make their actual fighting/adventuring style different, instead of it just being a shitty blunt/piercing/slashing RPS.

HEMA D&D reporting.

My best answer is that if you want to just balance, impose a strength requirement. If you want armor as a better function of what it is, you have the overhaul the whole thing because DC is a fast mechanic but it's retarded.

Better option is the make your armor a modifier of evasion (which it is now) and also a modifier on damage taken/ ease of attacking.

Example. Full plate is best for deflecting arrows, swords, and spears, which can do almost nothing unless you call shot or have a feat for grappling with your weapon. Full plate has a damage reduction against hammers better than being bareskinned, but its not a lot better than leather against blunt, and it has a hitpoint pool. When the pool runs out, armor is broken and now doesn't block well and slows you more. Nothing has armor against normal or heavy crossbows. Full plate gives you a slight disadvantage when you attack, maybe a -2 without trait and a -1 with trait, representing limited range of motion. Leather doesn't have that, but doesn't deflect normal arrows and takes damage from swords and spears the same as plate takes damage from hammers.

In short, lots of specific beardy rules, or a hard and fast one that encourages minmax.

>>50896939
You don't.
You just don't
If you want to fix a thing, you get to rebalance for it. Don't be lazy.

>>50895692
>A basic idea would be trying to make everything on each Armour tier (Light/Heavy, or Light/Medium/Heavy) roughly equivalent. Even if some have higher AC than others, the other armour available has alternate benefits and bonuses to even up the difference.
In other words weaken the warrior class even further.

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>>50895692
Would the rest of this be of interest?

>>50897196

You could jack the system from Star Wars Saga where you have some inherent AC bonuses from your class and character level, and when wearing armor you either use the armor's bonus or your own AC. Armor in general is also expensive, but provides some cool shit like DR to energy or environmental protection.

Fuck realism. All armour is Light, Medium or Heavy and provides the same AC bonus.

Each armour subtype is given traits. Maybe full plate gives you DR, whatever.

There you go. Balanced, creates choices, each armour type has its own identity. It'll make the people whining about realism furious, but fuck realism if it creates interesting choices for characters.

>>50897174
I just threw a number out there, and considering all HP should be greatly reduced 20 isn't a bad number for nonmagical armor.

The armor regenerates as a function of damaged armor still being useful. In real life damaged armor results in a bunch of problems and likely means you are injured too, however the armor isn't useless because one spot is damaged. This represents that.

>>50897357
No, I think he's talking about all Heavy (or Medium, or Light) armor being more or less similarly. (So, like, Leather armor has roughly the same AC as Padded armor, but maybe padded has +1 AC but it sucks when trying to climb?)

>>50897384

*All armour of the same tier provides the same AC bonus

To clarify

Half the suggestions in this thread just seem vastly overcomplicated and pointless. I'd prefer removing the mechanic entirely than that layers of HP shit.

It works fine as a simple abstraction, just leave it as that.

>>50895692
>I've never seen a version of D&D where choice of armour is actually meaningful. You always go for the heaviest your class can wear unless you have some specific ability to get a bonus for wearing lighter armour.
>There's no real choice there, there's basically always an optimal choice and as time goes on a few armour types remain relevant while the rest go unused.
Isn't that the fabled "realism"? There's plenty of people here who say if you're not covering every square inch of body in french heavy cavalry full plate, you'll certainly die at a sharp glance.

I think resistance/vulnerability to certain damage types coupled with imposing advantage/disadvantage on certain things are probably the easiest way to meaningfully differentiate armours in 5e.

>>50895692
D&D is a glorified wargame, the HP and damage mechanics make any meaningful realism when it comes to armour completely out of place.

Keep them abstract or play something else, otherwise you're like one of those autists who think that kids cartoons would be better with more gore, without remembering that there are plenty of options already available for grownups.

>>50895692
>The question is, how could you fix that?

By deleting Kike Mearls, Monte Cuck, Sage LaTorra and Adam Kuckbels from the universe.,they have fucked up role-playing games with their reckless faggotry. Gygax is already dead and I hope there is a hell and he is in it, same with Dave Arseson and the other fuckcocks who made Ad&d. The 3.5 devs all hopefully will get brain cancer in the next few years in return doe the cancer,they have caused on the RPG community. Same with SKR and the nu male cunt who based weapon cord rules on his faggy inability to flip a mouse cord around. I hope they all get multiple,sclerosis. Fucking pieces of shit.

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>>50898113
An insightful and meaningful post, Anon.

>>50895692
You want to make a minigame out of picking armor. You want the various kinds of light/medium/heavy armor to be different without any being better or worse than the others. The problem is that that's impossible. The minigame of which armor to pick will be quickly solved, and the end result will be more complexity for no benefit to enjoyment of the game.

>>50897868
Remember that one UA article they wrote about feats? It had something in it that I agree with a lot: be extremely careful of introducing a new rule that will make every single turn more complicated. A feat that makes every attack require three dice rolls instead of two is a badly designed feat. Similarly, making armor more complicated, with every kind of mindane armor having weird unique properties that can't be expressed as one number, bogs the game down. It's not a matter of new players being dumb, though that is something to consider. It's the fact that this shit takes time for everyone, from the brightest to the dullest, and is a waste of time for everyone.

Needs a fundamental rework of how the whole AC system works. Whether a hit lands or not should come down to agility/parry/blocking from the defender, which heavier armor would moderately impede. If you roll a hit, barely making it would let the defender choose a good place for the hit to land, and making a hit with lots to spare lets the attacker choose where the hit lands. The type of armor covering the place where the hit lands then mitigates damage. You hit someone wearing a breast plate in the chest, it does little to no damage, as if they were wearing full plate. You hit someone wearing a breast plate in the arm, it does damage like they had no armor at all. (Good chance it disables that arm)

TLDR: Armor becomes DR for the body parts it covers, but if anything makes it easier to hit in the first place.

>>50898293

But can't that logic be applied identically to... Basically every choice anyone ever makes in RPGs? All of them are 'solved' sooner or later, but that doesn't mean nobody ever uses the non-optimal choices. If the gap is small enough, you'll get a pretty even distribution.

>>50898424
t. Armchair HEMA nerd

So what's the best armor and damage system out there in terms of meaningful decision making?

>>50898823
Depends on the person making the decision.

>>50895692
>You always go for the heaviest your class can wear unless you have some specific ability to get a bonus for wearing lighter armour.
>There's no real choice there, there's basically always an optimal choice and as time goes on a few armour types remain relevant while the rest go unused.


That's called realism, m8. Wear as much armor as you possibly can up to the point where it becomes too encumbering, then stop.

>>50898922
>Implying there is no objective best system
I'm not asking for opinions, bud.

>>50898966
The metrics for determining which system is 'best' vary from person to person.

You're asking for opinions, you just didn't realize it.

>>50895692
I had a party who believed in this train of thought and 4/5 decked themselves out in the heaviest armor they could find.

They failed to take into account how the armor affects your speed, climbing, swimming and how enemies could take advantage of this inherent weakness.

>>50899150
Not to mention you can't sleep in that shit and it takes two to out on a set. Sure they ran in and took volleys of arrows from brigands like it was nothing to steal some loot but a lot got away due to the players restricted movement.

Then the brigands followed them back to their HQ while hiding in bushes and shit, sneaking around them until nighttime. When lights went out they made their move and were spotted, not that it mattered because the parties ac as a whole was shit because they weren't given 45 minutes to don't on their armorm

>>50895692
Cut out the badly suboptimal armors and provide a big table of historical equivalents for the 6 or 7 you're left with. D&D isn't a detailed enough simulation to go much further -- if you want to introduce more mechanics, they're going to feel awkwardly bolted on.

While we're at it, change the speed reduction shit so that the athlete in a breastplate isn't slower than the 7 str wizard.

>>50895692
In OD&D you cross-referenced your opponents weapon against your armor on a chart to find the AC.

>>50895692
It only takes a couple of house rules to make suits of armor feel differnt than others. Give platemail DR 10 against slashing, DR 5 bludgeoning, and no DR against pericing. That's just the first example that comes to mind, I'm sure you can work that out for every suit across the board.

>>50899307
>While we're at it, change the speed reduction shit so that the athlete in a breastplate isn't slower than the 7 str wizard.
You should play 5e

>There's no real choice there, there's basically always an optimal choice and as time goes on a few armour types remain relevant while the rest go unused.

But that is how it works in real life too.

If everything in D&D worked like in real life, EVERYONE except rogues would be walking around in full plate. There is NO REASON not to use full plate, because full plate is superior to EVERYTHING.

>>50899659
The only meaningful distinction in armours is where full plate limits your range of movement (you can no longer raise your arms above you head completely) but grants you no restrictions in actual moving (you can run marathons in full plate), the thinner but looser armours like mail, brigandine etc. give you a greater range of movement (because they're little bits of metal instead of a full metal exoskeleton) but they hang from your shoulders, thus slowing you down when you run.

>>50895692
I´m working on a homebrew.

Long story short, there´s both wounds (actual damage you can take, PCs will have 2-3 with 1 or 4 being only fringe cases) and Stamina (PCs tend to have 12-19). Stamina is a mix of energy, luck, enthusiasm, etc., and when it reaches 0, then you start losing wounds. The way you take damage is different for both..

Now, you can also use Stamina to boost dice rolls. Challenges, attack and defense rolls. I´m not sure about damage rolls yet.

Wearing heavy armor reduces significantly Stamina loss (you shrug off hits much easier) and SIGNIFICANTLY reduces your CHANCE to suffer wounds, and also tends to make the wounds you do take a little lighter (it´s hard to get hurt when wearing armor, but if something does go through it then you´re still getting hurt).

Wearing armor reduces your maximum Stamina, the heavier the armor the more Stamina you lose. This allows light and fast characters to move around like crazy or to dodge a lot, and heavy bulky guys to hold their ground much more easily but at the cost of reduced mobility/flexibility of options.


What do you think?

>>50895692
Holy crackers, this image is wrong

>>50895692
Metal conducts magic, similar to electricity. Therefore, wearing armours with metal in it, starting with studded leather (ew) all the way to plate, gives increasingly large penalties to spellcasting and magic defense.

Make it provide damage reduction and penalize AC.
Different weapons have different armor piercing values, adding an extra layer of diversity when it comes to weapon choice.

>>50900654
That's just needlessly punishing martial and hybrid characters.

>>50900682
Aye, but it WOULD make picking armour a meaningful choice.

Caster imbalance is a problem that needs to be fixed in most DnD clones anyway.

>>50896682
I vaguely remember back in ad&d there were rules regarding weapon type vs armor type

>>50900727
It pretty much ruins any hybrid class. Bards use metal weapons, paladins and rangers would be fucked, magus would be shit in a bucket.

It doesn't make the choice meaningful at all. It just punishes people for trying to use both magic and metal for no mechanical benefit to the game.

>>50895692
The problem is that D&D works better as an exploration game than a combat game in most editions. Bloating combat options doesn't really play to the strengths of the game imo, which why I don't really like 3.PF and 5e. 4e, being designed for combat, doesn't have this issue.

>>50895692
Any decent GM will include scenarios where your players need to disrobe fast, or face certain doom. Normally, lighter armour is easier to don and take off.

>>50898113
t. Forgefaggot

>>50895692
You have to really envision these specific armors as a DM to make them work in interesting ways within the campaign.

I once had a Ranger get stuck on a spike because the spike had pierced through his chainmail and was now "tangled" within it.

Plus plate armor is PLATE ARMOR, it's heavy, bulky, and massive. I usually have penalties to trying to get up after being knocked prone and of course in places like chasms and caves the footsteps echo and create all kinds of noise.

I also add in a basic durability system with heavier/more expensive armors costing more to maintain than simpler ones.

>>50901137
>it's heavy, bulky, and massive
It really isn't but this is d&d so who cares I guess.

>>50901168
Have you ever seen people move in plate armor? It's incredibly awkward.

>>50901137
You might want to visit a museum or something.

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>>50901137
>Plus plate armor is PLATE ARMOR, it's heavy, bulky, and massive. I usually have penalties to trying to get up after being knocked prone and of course in places like chasms and caves the footsteps echo and create all kinds of noise.

Yes, plate armour is heavy, bulky and massive. No it doesn't immobilize you when you fall you fucking retard, because plate armour supports itself. It is rigid. It is only heavy when you are carrying it unassembled. When you don it on, it is lighter than any other metal armour because IT FUCKING CARRIES ITSELF. You can run in it. It was a common thing for knights to dick around in plate armour on ladders for shit and giggles.

You're right about it making noise though.

>>50901207
And it was a common tactic that when a knight was knocked from horse back he could be easily silenced because he had a harder time getting up than someone dressed in lighter armor.

I like how Ryuutama lets you take penalties on armor to make it cheaper. Like you can pick up a hauberk for a song, but then everyone makes fun of you because it's rusty and a decade out of fashion.

>>50901221
That has nothing to do with the armour, you retard. Falling off a horse hurts.

In fact, heavier armour would make it easier to get back on your feet because the padding stops you from BREAKING YOUR FUCKING SPINE.

>>50895692
Leather armor? Studded leather? No gambeson? No lamellar armors? A fucking steel shield and no round shield?! I'm fucking triggered, lucky I never touched D&D ever!

>>50901221
please stop talking about things you know nothing about.

>>50901201
I have and it's nowhere near to what you're describing. A penalty to get up might be appropriate if you're fighting in wet sticky mud or something but not under normal conditions, that's for sure.

>>50901201
>Have you ever seen fat unfit American nerdy man-pig-people move in cheap LARP plate armor? It's incredibly awkward.

>>50901201
Not nearly as awkward as you make it to be. How would you combat in armor if you couldn't move normally? You think people would have used plate armor, if it had been incredibly hard to move in it?

>>50901262
Don't get me started on the kiteshield being called tower shield...

>>50901308
That's it. I'm making sure I will burn every single D&D book I ever see from now on.

>>50901251
Excuses and dodging reality. You can wear 50lb of equipment in modern times and believe me, you will feel the weight of it.

>>50901263
Great response faggot.

>>50901265
I would like to see you in full plate armor get up at the same speed and grace as someone unarmored.

>>50901294
Europoor.

>>50901305
I'm saying that when it comes down to the basic principle of dexterity, someone who is not wearing armor vs. someone who is wearing 50lbs+ of armor is going to have an advantage when it comes to dexterous based movements.

>>50901201
The only awkward thing about moving in plate armour is that you lack some range of movement in your limbs - which is as much a negative as a positive, because NO ONE can dislocate your arms and legs because the metal plates will not allow your limbs to bend that way.

>>50901265
>A penalty to get up might be appropriate if you're fighting in wet sticky mud
Such a penalty would be appropriate regardless of what you're wearing.

Plate armor is light, comfortable, and allows for almost a full range of motion. Unless it's jousting armor. Which should never be worn in a field environment. note that I said jousting armor, not cavaliers armor, they're different things.

It is, however, loud as shit. You're not sneaking up on anyone unless you're walking on loam and they're occupied by a skald trying to learn how to play bagpipes.

>>50901327
>Excuses and dodging reality. You can wear 50lb of equipment in modern times and believe me, you will feel the weight of it.
You retard. How do you not understand that plate armour is RIGID and CARRIES ITSELF?

It feels like you're wearing nothing at all!

>>50901327
Please stop talking about things you don't understand. Your willful ignorance physically hurts.

>>50896992

To simplify what you're saying, give armor its own HP and have the HP be deducted from it when penetrated like in Dwarf Fortress. That way, you don't run into the issue of potions of healing "healing" your plate.

Then again, 5.0 made it so that constructs (or at least warforged) are effected by healing, so what do I know.

>>50901327
>someone who is not wearing armor vs. someone who is wearing 50lbs+ of armor is going to have an advantage when it comes to dexterous based movements.

That I can accept, but don't go around thinking you couldn't be dexterous in armor. What should be the most critical aspect is endurance, since in the long run that extra mass is going to be insane combined with the fact it's hot as hell to combat in full set.

>>50901353
You're right 50lbs of armor has 0 effect and bearing at how agile you can be.

>>50901370
Fag European

>>50901385
In order to balance out the way the armor classes I work it is necessary to instill some penalties regarding dexterous based actions while donning heavier classes of armor vs. someone in lighter/unarmored classes.

I never thought to include endurance, but that could be next level.

Well out of historical accuracy, it's important to note the TRUE weaknesses of plate armour.
Heat, and (lack of) vision.
Plate armour is okay when you're not wearing a helmet, and it's doable when you're wearing a helmet with your visor up.
But when you put your visor down - oh boy. You won't see shit, and you'll be sweating like a pig in a sauna. All that heat will be trapped inside that metal shell.

If a wizard asks you what kind of enchantments you want on your plate, be smart.

Ask for air conditioning, and for some kind of "true vision" blabla bullshit on your helmet so you can see straight through the thing as if you're wearing nothing at all.

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>>50901327
i'm not even particularily fit and i can run 5km with a rifle, plate carrier, ruck, sleeping kit, stretcher and my medical shit without too much of an issue, that stuff usually clocks in at 35kg total, plus ammo.

obstacles courses don't become impossible either, and i've even managed to swim like 50 yards in it. and modern armour is way worse fitted to your body than memeieval shit.

>>50897080
They took it from C.H.A.I.N.M.A.I.L and other wargames. Those games differentiated between lightly armored mobile forces and heavily armored shock troops, such as the French men at arms which advanced at Agincourt. Many men were aggregated into a single battle unit, from which we get Hit Points, Armor Class, morale, and other concepts. They were always aggregate, so they will forever be spotty when applied to individual characters, especially Weirdfinder races. Playing a single character should grant you much more detail than this, except that the DM then has to manage all that detail fairly, and it would be too hard.

>>50901387
Are you some twelve year old from some third world country? Because I get the idea that you don't understand what we're saying at all.

>I've never worn armor before, the posts.
For the love of Christ guys.

You wanna know why someone would choose to wear "leather armor" (which is nothing like the BDSM tier garbage fantasy games present you) instead of just steel plate when both are available?

Money.

Steel plate is for professional soldiers and the wealthy. "Leather" is for serfs and thralls.

>>50901444
>kg
listen europup but all of those items are banned in your """country""" anyways so not only are you lying but you are probably only wearing 500 lbs in bodyweight because no clothes will properly fucking fit you.

>>50901452
blown out

>>50901428
I wonder how in gaming aspect the visor should be included. Technically in war people just threw the fucking thing away when closing in melee combat?

>>50901407
Ahh, the quest to balance game mechanics and realism. I'm not sure what are the rulesets in D&D, but basically in armor you should have penalty in dodge, since that can actually be restricted. Otherwise in fight, almost any moveset necessary can be done in armor, because it wouldn't make sense to not be able to do them. Would be pretty shitty armor, if you can't execute parry/strike sequences.

Now, if you have dodge penalty, blunt weapons are your cryptonite. Basically any slashing weapon is 0 effect against plate mail and spears pretty much need critical to do damage. I wonder, if half-swording is a thing in D&D.

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>>50901207
Plate armour may also end up feeling lighter than many other forms of armour (mail, lamellar, etc) with the same degree of coverage simply on account of actually being lighter. (Not always of course, individual specimens of all types of weapon and armour can vary immensely.)

It may look massive due to all those plates, but all said and done it's a rather efficient way to cover your body in metal.

>>50901262
Well, there are buff coats, sometimes with pants as well. A bit late for DnD perhaps, but hardly the worst anachronism around.

Studded, yeah...

Looks like the splint mail would be lamellar, and padded armour the gambesson if we make a coat out of it.

>>50901327
>I would like to see you in full plate armor get up at the same speed and grace as someone unarmored.

A battle is not about getting the most points from a panel of gymnastics judges for your "bounce back after falling form a horse" routine on a prepared and reasonably kind surface.

If it was, then light workout clothes with a touch of padding and extra abrasion resistance would probably be what people went for.

It's not though. Simple being able to get up in a timely manner will be quite adequate. And while you're not going to find me falling off a horse very often, I ave a feeling that the problem with standing up again afterwards is mroe due to the fall, than simply the challenge of standing up. I mean most of us have that part figured out well before we're out of our diapers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMuNXWFPewg

https://youtu.be/NqC_squo6X4?t=35m16s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm11yAXeegg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kKLgSTkCEo

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>>50901479
Depends, after the renaissance, munition plate became a thing. Mass produced plate armour for the "poor". Ill fitted and not very reliable against crossbow bolts and bullets, but hey... better than nothing.

Also, leather armour didn't become a thing for the poor until the early modern period. In the middle ages and the renaissance, leather was so labour intensive to make, that only the rich could afford leather armour. Leather armour was used as a breastplate underneath mail in the transitional era between mail armour and plate armour. At one point, someone decided to make breastplates out of metal instead of leather.

And then later on, in the early modern period, leathermaking was made easier, and leather became a common thing for common soldiers - still too expensive for serfs and thralls.

You see that brown shit the guy in the foreground wears? That's a buffcoat. That's leather armour.

>>50901327
>I would like to see you in full plate armor get up at the same speed and grace as someone unarmored.
Nowhere did I imply something like so don't try to put words in my mouth. It of course goes without saying that if you're not wearing an extra 20 or so kg of armor that you're going to be faster but the difference really isn't that much

The real drawback of plate isn't its weight or any marginal loss of mobility. It's sensory deprivation, risk of heat stroke, high maintenance cost, high production cost and so on. And guess what? The magnificent protection it offered was still worth it all. The only reason why you wouldn't wear plate to battle is if you couldn't afford it or had to face some really specific situation like a swamp or something.

In the end, this thread is about gaming. Will you be slowed enough to warrant a penalty in game? Especially D&D where your characters have superhuman strength and endurance? No, and it would be absurd to suggest otherwise.

>>50901479
Yeah, but leather armor is not a thing. Leather is soft and easily cut and stabbed through, both qualities that make a shitty shield against any weapon. You could argue you would use boiled leather, but it's not much better.

But you know what is actually very effective and cheap armor? Gambeson.

Also studded leather armors you see in medieval pictures are supposed to be plate armor, where plates are INSIDE the leather vest and studded in place. The actual armor is plates, not the fucking leather.

>>50901525
Sometimes yes, they could also just flap them up. Historically visors were attached at an angle to helmets, so you had to use force to either close or open them. This allowed visors to remain on the helmet even when you moved around a lot, because the visor was essentially jammed and wouldn't move unless you put a lot force in it.

In (bad) modern (LARP) replicas, visors are often attached at a straight angle, so if you move around they end up falling down etc.

>>50901551
>>50901582
You'll both notice how I used the terms "leather" and "leather armor" with a set of these " "

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>>50901525
>Technically in war people just threw the fucking thing away when closing in melee combat?

Some visor could be easily removed.

Others would have spring-loaded pins to keep them in place when raised, or simply get a good deal of friction between helmet bowl and visor.

Then again, some people would probably also consider the risk of foreign objects intruding into their faces the main issue at hand, and keep the visor in place, or use a helmet that covered the face on a more permanent basis.

please pick one kind of armor to resist piercing damage
one kind of armor that resists slashing damage
and one type that resists bludgeoning

if you're interested in a bonus round, please pick one kind of armor to resist ballistic type damage

heavy armor should be shit in the context of adventuring

it was ideal in real life because agility was useless in a crowded battlefield where swords or spear points could come from any direction at any time

the same is not true of most D&D battles, where facing more than six or seven enemies is relatively rare if you're on a standard encounter table

>>50901638
can you explain how "ballistic" type damage is somehow not one of the above types

>>50901627
Do remember that Poe's law is strong force. But yeah, fair enough.

>>50901627
Dude, just let me sperg out about buffcoats, I never get to talk about buffcoats.

>>50901641
d&d battles very often have you facing much larger opponents, as well
how does that effect your armor thoughts?

or rather "armor made in a world where you'll frequently have to battle larger, inhuman opponents"

>>50901650
in some rpgs, 'ballistic' is exclusive to guns, giving them a different type then everyone else

>>50901672
Tell me about buffcoats anon.

>>50901676
It's to the same effect. In the face of overwhelming force, the only good defense is to not get hit. Plate armor should provide no more effective defense to getting stomped on by a colossus than it would to a steel girder falling on you.

>>50901582

On the contrary, the Zulu Impis used leather shields to great effect up until they hit guns, which no contemporary shield design would have stood up to anyway. It's all about being tough enough to deflect a slashing blow, which is the same principal cloth armour works on.

Though evidently, cloth makes a more economical choice for cheap armour than leather.

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>>50901505
thanks now i know to tell the guys at the depot that what they're doing is illegal

>>50901382
What if it worked like temporary hit points? That way spells help out the unarmored or deeper into a fight instead of up front.

>>50901327
>I would like to see you in full plate armor get up at the same speed and grace as someone unarmored.
They wouldn't have time to stand up, because someone would shove a spear through their faggot chest, because they were stupid enough to show up to a battle with no fucking armor, and their spine would be broken so they wouldn't be moving anyway

>>50901757
Yeah, but then, nothing should provide a defence to getting stomped on by a colossus besides moving out of the space that it's stomping on.

>>50901757
so armor making would make no changes, despite you usually fighting against non-human foes?
>>50901801
why can nothing be engineered to help?

>>50901801
Yeah, and who has a better chance of evading a colossus stomping on you? Not the guy in plate.

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>>50901638
Plate armour does very well against the first three, and with properly hardened and tempered modern steel you could probably get the breastplate and helmet to keep you safe from most pistols and many rifles of today.

Mail will do a bit against piercing and bludgeoning, though hardly brilliant. Does very nicely against sharp cutting edges though. A layered gameness on the other hand should be very significant when blunt trauma is the worry, and will tend to be surprisingly effective against piercing attacks that don't involve a sharp edge.

So, if you happen to be wearing both...

Still, the main point here is most likely that real life doesn't quite seem to have been as rock-paper-scissor happy as games can be. If you wish for such for game design reasons, then a sacrifice in realism will probably have to be made.

>>50901777
Or... Or... Or... You use the Armor as Damage Reduction alternate rules that Wizards and Pathfinder both have for 3.PF instead of making it ridiculous?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/variants/armorAsDamageReduction.html

Hell, technically armor already has it's own HP in the first place, but people forget about it because nobody remembers that Sunder rules exsist because no one ever uses them.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm

>>50901816
The typical fantasy world doesn't have the technology to make such a solution possible, at least by non-magical means anyway.

>>50901820
In reality, I doubt the disadvantage would be negligible. According to D&D rules, there's really nothing you can do because it's the colossus' turn and you can't move.

>>50901871
>I doubt the disadvantage would be negligible
Shit, double negative.

I went for "I doubt the disadvantage would be that much greater" but changed direction halfway throuh

>>50901864
why not
and why wouldn't they have developed with that in mind, in the first place, considering that that's their primary opponents?

>>50901849
The DR rules do not scale with damage output past level 8, anon, and don't even begin to account for the damage a half ass optimized pc can dish out.
Further, it skews the game towards the cancer that is twohand power attacking being the best option further.

>>50901887
what could they possibly make?

>>50901207
it looks like the middle guy told the guy on the left how to climb ladders incorrectly, as a joke, and the guy on the right is amused by it

>>50901909
I don't know
I wasn't raised in a world where humans have been constantly fighting larger and different enemies their entire existence
(the existence of which completely invalidates any understanding or knowledge I have, without even touching 'magic')

>>50895692
>how could you fix that?
PF added a variant rule in which you could build your armor, literally piece by piece, from top to head, from shoulders and collar to shins and toes, etc

It ended always being better than the default armors sometimes even for silly combos

>>50895692
>There's no real choice there, there's basically always an optimal choice and as time goes on a few armour types remain relevant while the rest go unused.
Not really
See Breastplate, all people will say breastplate is the best medium armor, and I say, really? Pick a Sohei (monk who can wear light armors) and pick a Mithral Breastplate, even with Mithral it still gives you a -1 penalty, which translates to attack because you aren't proficient with medium armors. So is it the best?

Now pick Kikko, another medium armor, that has 1 point lower in AC than breastplate but also 1 point lower in penalty, make it mithral and it becomes the best armor for Sohei.

There's always going to be a best choice for your character, sure, but that choice might not be the best for another character

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>>50901637

Some helmets, like the close helmet, Dealt with that issue by having a split visor, that could be "set" for horseback lance fun, on-foot sword fun, or open face easy breathing fun.

>>50895692
As I understand it, that's pretty realistic, though not super fun.

Personally I like it when heavier armor slows you down a bit (something like Dark Souls), but the only way I can think of for that to work is to have armor be DR and give an AC/Ref penalty and that would require a bit of tweaking to cram into D&D at all well.

You could potentially also come up with something that each type of armor does better than anything else, whether it be something simple like each type of armor having one damage type it's best against, or something more complicated (though aside from purely meta, gamist stuff like an extra healing surge or a non-4e equivalent I have no ideas there).

My god, all the sperging over realism in this thread. D&D was never realistic in the first place, why demand it of the armour?

>>50897290
Paladium/ rifts has an aweosme armor system that allows you to damage the armor and weaken it dropping your ac

>>50895692
Not a bad idea... agood balancer would be certain armors offering resistances. i.e., chainmail offers resistance to slashing, plate offers resistance to piercinh, padded offers resistance to blunt, etc.

>>50902415
Roll a 20
1 to 5 = miss
5 to 12 (random ac) = hits armor and does integrity damage
13 to 20 hits you

The armor has a 3 part health system
3/3 = you're good
2/3 = - 2 ac
1/3 = - 4 ac

>>50901262
>>50901322
It's not even from a D&D book, dips.

>>50895692
Create two types of Defense, Dodge and Parry, and change armor stats to give a specific penalty to the Dodge defense.
Dodge is the AC as it is, but in Parry you use STR instead of DEX.
Dodge works like AC, but Parry can only be used against melee attacks from other medium sized weapons. If you have a shield you can use Parry against ranged attacks and natural weapons from medium monsters.
What happens is that armored characters can invest a lot in STR for good attack bonus and defense(a soldier, a gladiator, a duelits), but they become vulnerable to ranged attacks(unless wielding a shield) or big monsters. The source of choice comes from the fact that Parry will never defend attacks from Large+ creatures or weapons. If the character is going after a Troll, or Giant or Dragon, his high Parry will be useless as those attacks will be made against his Dodge, so in those cases he will need to choose for a more agile armor to get a better Dodge defense.

This house rule creates a bigger distinction between the tough mundane soldier like fighter who specializes on fighting against other armed and armored opponents, and the adventurous fighter, who will value a balance between avoidance and mitigation because he will face all types of enemies, and he can't mitigate being stepped on by a Titan.

>>50897049
>The whole point is that no one is going to wear mundane armor if there is a magic armor choice that is around as good

I'm pretty sure anon's point was that, if some mundane armor type is best for you, then +1 (that armor type) is going to be better for you than any other kind of +1 armor.

If you don't have magic marts in every town for custom gear it comes down to what the random loot table says you get, but even then it's primarily what gets you the highest AC.

>>50901221
Agincourt was the only time I am aware of of armor making it hard to get up, and it only did so because of the mud being stuck to the smooth surface so you sink in and get stuck, and if you did get up your feet would sink down into the mud like regular shoes do now. Basically in any other conditions you were probably better off with the armor than without.

>>50904355
Muddy conditions on a battlefield is not a far-fetched scenario.

>>50904568
then I guess no one ever used horses for war

>>50904644
nah, that'd be silly

inb4 Poe's bullshit

>>50901849
Armor as DR only works for low hit point games, period. DR is a cancer in D&D because it greatly increased the difficulty of an encounter without being figured into CR well at all.

The armor as DR rules in 3.pf are also terrible because you can pump your DR into the stratosphere and it means too much compared to pumping AC in the game. It also makes saves being the only decent target for attacks worse, and makes weapon choice even more skewed - so it is two bad things made worse at once.

I'm advocating reducing hit points and making part HP calculated with armor, you know the thing good editions of the game do with NPC statblocks (i.e. low AC creatures have more HP). I'm also spitballing some mechanics with it because there is more that can be done than with DR.

>>50895692
>The question is, how could you fix that?
By not playing D&D and playing a system with beter and more interesting armor and rules in general.

>>50901137
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvCvOC2VwDc

1:10. Shows getting up from both face up and face down positions.

Doesn´t look limiting.

>>50896971
>The fact of the matter is that irl plate did ultimately take over until guns rolled around, and actually in OG D&D it was stated that most adventurers didn't bother with heavy armors because magic effectively had the same impact on the development of armors as guns did

Just so you know, plate took over WHEN guns rolled around. And the impact of guns on the armor development for a pretty long time was making it thicker.

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>>50907299
>Armor as DR only works for low hit point games, period. DR is a cancer in D&D because it greatly increased the difficulty of an encounter without being figured into CR well at all.
It actually works pretty well with old school D&D.

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>>50898113
How's Dungeon World treating you?

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>>50912622
It actually doesn't significantly change the game.

>>50912622
It works OK for basic, and only because damage was also increased making it sort of fuzzy that anything was going on at all even though it feels fine. Basic also has like 1/2 the HP of WotC editions.

>>50901849
I've actually thought for awhile about a character based around sundering but I figured it'd piss off other players when a good chunk of loot gets broken.

>>50895692
>I've never seen a version of D&D where choice of armour is actually meaningful. You always go for the heaviest your class can wear unless you have some specific ability to get a bonus for wearing lighter armour.


The solution is, much like some OSR does, make armor heavier, enforce encumbrance penalties and movement speed restrictions, and have the GM give harsh penalties for wearing armor for prolonged amount of times in hot weather and similar.

>>50896887
Not worth it with magic mart and exponential costs.
It's usually more cost effective to sell a +X and buy the +X-1 if the base armor is better.

Compare the bonus of a Splint Mail +3 to a Full Plate +2 for instance.

make AC damage based without it being a simple damage reductor, maybe give a boost to weaker armors but also to stronger armors

example: an AC 8 armor deflects any damage 8 or lower but 9 or higher bypasses it and the wearer takes full damage.

This way you gear armor towards defense against specific weapons.


You can also base it on material alternatively, have leather be slash and bludgeoning resistant, have chain-mail be piercing and bludgeoning resistant, and have plate be piercing and slashing resistant. Historically boiled leather could withstand sword slashes better than chain or even plate, but it took a long ass time to make.

Blunt weapons could always bash trough platemail with sheer force however.

Refer to the AD&D armor rules, they had this concept although basic.

>>50898026
This, with damage high enough to kill a peasant 50 times over armor can't be realistic. Neither negating it nor the alternative have any reasonable explanation for how the armor was not damaged by a dragon's claw. You can't refluff it as dodging shit when wearing plate mail.

Maybe it's too convoluted and complex but I feel it could neat to have some sort of damage reduction/conversion, like full plate converting slashing and piercing damage below a threshold into bludgeoning and reducing bludgeoning and/or converting it into subdual damage up to a set threshold. You could additionally have different armors giving constant skill modifiers like bonuses from specialized equipment.

>There's no real choice there, there's basically always an optimal choice and as time goes on a few armour types remain relevant while the rest go unused.
Yes. This is how real armor works. You choose the strongest armor you can, because none of it weights a significant enough amount to make a difference. You're not going to see a 16th century knight going into battle with anything less than platemail. The only reason infantry didn't wear plate is because plate costs so much to make, as it does in most editions.

>>50895692
Why not incorporate damage resistance into armor? Different types of armor are used to protect you from different forms of attack, right? For example, chainmail is light and Very good at stopping swords(DR 5 against slash). Full plate offers more complete protection, but is susceptible to warhammers and the like (DR 7/bludgeon), as well as restricting your move speed and dexterity. Leather would be only mildly protective, but good against blunt attacks and be more suited to sneaking about. Mind that these numbers are just wild ideas, and you can apply DR, bonuses nd penalties as you see fit.

>>50914067
Armor doesn't impede your movement that much.

>>50912637
Better than D&D and Shitfinder are treating you.

>>50916869
truth.

>>50895692
make armor cosmetic only

actual armor physics would slow down the game too much, and it would boil down to everyone wearing gambesons anyway, since real armor would be heavy and a pain in the ass to wear while traveling on foot. Someone specialized in armor might carry a mail shirt, but they wouldn't wear it unless they expected to encounter danger.

Thick gambesons were actually pretty good armor, and mail was even better. There is a reason mail was in use for hundreds of years.

Leather cuts easily and is penetrated far too easily to make good armor, and putting metal studs in it does nothing at all. Leather looks good though, and is somewhat resistant to scrapes. A leather jacket might be nice for traveling, but it wouldn't do much during a sword fight.

Scale mail never saw much use in the real world because it is too easy to bypass, and takes a lot of metal. Regular chain mail is better and easier to make.

I think by "banded mail" they are referring to things like brigandines. Brigandines were very good armor made from tightly overlapping plates held together on a vest that opened in either the front or back, but they were neither cheap or light. Good for a war, but bad for an adventure across the countryside unless you have a horse cart or something to carry your gear.

Large solid metal shields would be really really heavy.

>tl;dr d&d depictions of armor are bullshit, but fixing it would ruin the game. Remove it entirely.

>>50901826
god damn no, no, no
modern ballistic plates are THICK and heavy as fuck, compared to relatively little sheet metal you need to stop a sword swing. If you took a modern bullet to the plate armor, you'd just end up with a chest cavity full of shrapnel in addition to fucking bullet
those plates in your pic? approx. 7.5 pounds a piece, and what you cant see in the picture that it's relatively tiny, barely covering your stomach and top of the sternum. Also it's ceramic, steel ones weigh even more, 8lbs and up. Much more than a bit of sheet metal over a chainmail.

>>50923862

People don't seem to realise just how much firearms have really progressed. Plate could deal with musket balls in its day, but modern firearms are virtually incomparable to the archaic form.

I've designed the armor system for a homebrew to be a pointbuy, piecemeal armor "builder" where armor is DR. There are 8 hit locations and 6 armor locations (Head, 2 arms, 2 legs, 3 torso acting as one). It gives incentive to use different armor types for different things and also gives support for historical outfits like breastplate+shield, gambeson+chain, and of course full plate.

I also plan on having different styles of armor (cloth, chain, plate) provide different amounts of DR to different damage types (your standard blunt/slash/pierce), but I haven't solidified on some of those numbers yet as the rest of combat isn't finalized.

>>50895692
Clearly you don't play with weight rules, or meaningful amounts of loot, or with the actual negative modifiers to armor.

>>50895692
In DD, why the fuck is padded armor worse than leather or HIDE?

I've got the perfect armor system with maximum realism.

Your armor has two stats. Percentage of body covered, and level of protection. So for example, while a solid breastplate made of quenched steel will be liable to shrug off literally anything in the game, it will be expensive as fuck and your enemy can simply elect to strike at a different area of your body for a very minor debuff to their strike's accuracy. The skill to hit unarmored parts of the body is related to weapon dexterity, to simulate stuff like half swording. So for example, somebody with lots of points dumped into longswords can crowbar his way into plate armor, because he's striking where the armor isn't.

But back to the point, so a high quality breastplate is expensive as fuck, but it isn't really high quality armor because of how little it covers. Now while padded armor might not be as durable (sure as fuck ain't stopping a poleaxe), it is actually more effective than a breastplate because a padded akerton covers around 75% of your body.

This system actually helps push players to buy what is normally seen as "lower quality" armor, without the armor sucking, but also being better than a single piece of really high quality armor. It also makes sure that regardless of HOW FUCKIN L33T your daemonically enhanced uber armor of 5+++ is... it's not going to do jack shit if you've just got a single piece. It also makes enemies realistically hard as fuck for players to kill unless they dump a shitload of points into the dexterity of a specific weapon to master it.

So at the start of the game where you aren't some rich noble, it not only makes your players more likely to wear simple armor over most of their body for the coverage stat, but it also ensures mooks don't instantly die. Padded armor allows mooks to typically survive a couple hits from really powerful weapons if they don't bother to aim their attack, and can even survive shots from armor piercing arrow or bolt heads.

>>50924530
This could work if there was hit locations.

What if weapon die is for hit location? A dagger deals fixed 2 damage but rolls a d4 on a table:
1 - left arm
2 - right arm
3 - torso
4 - torso
(Crits allow the attacker to choose the location)

You could even use the same table for every weapon, with weapons that have higher die being able to hit more locations, like legs. This way you allow the complexity needed for armor made of multiple parts without the need for one additional roll.

>>50926012
That defeats the purpose though. The point of armor coverage is that it forces the person to make a skill check to strike the unarmored area. Choosing hit locations is MORE complicated.

>>50926412
Skill could allow to move in the table. So a fighter could step one up or down in the table.

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>>50901221
>Easily silenced

It usually involved pounding the ever loving piss out of them until they were crushed inside their tin can. If you could open their helmet then you could gab their face up until they die but in the heat of battle good luck being precise, calculated, and efficient.

>>50901327
I'm a physically disabled crippled who has had multiple leg surgeries to correct malformed feet and fucked up muscles.

I'm not the most agile motherfucker around and completely out of shape, yet I can easily pick myself off the ground in full harness. And I wear fucking ahistorical corazzina that doesn't even let me fucking bend!