How can their society even conceivably function?

>>50890070
>Can a more cartoonishly evil socity even exist?

Drow give them a run for their money

Warhammer and Warhammer 40k have tons bullshit favoritism that allows them to continue to exist and be cool in their own material while the rest of the writers ignore it and push their own faction.

They breed stupidly quickly and their leaders aren't stupid.

File: dunmer.png (28KB, 481x399px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 481x399px

>>50890070
Probably because they have enough population that probability is on their side. Also this >>50890129

That's just the sort of shit a society can tolerate when it produces mature adults at 3000% of what humans can manage

Im gonna repost something from that last Skaven thread we had.

Is it just me or did it seem like Skaven kinda seemed like one of the writer/creator's at GW's personal Mary Sues but literally no one else, other writers/creators and players included, gave a shit and paid it any mind? Fluffwise all you hear about is how numerous the Skaven really are, and that they have tunnels and by-ways into every other race's most secret places and vaults, that their intelligence gathering was second to none and the Council of Thirteen knew EVERYTHING that was going on in the world as it was happening, that if they ever got even close to fully unified that every other race would be simultaneously fucked six ways from Sunday.


Then everyone else just said, "Shut up and fuck off, ratfags"

>Backstabs each other at the slightest provocation.
>ALL addicted to radioactive meth.
>ALL of them are cowards, lazy and general assholes of the highest caliber.
>Rampant plagues that they are not immune to.
>Presumably all sorts of inbreeding going on.
>ALL of them have egos the size of the universe.
>Not a single attempt at long term harvesting.
> They die at the age of 20 without magic and are naturally stupid.

Man that is some hardcore racism bait. I could put any nationality and it would be goodbad.

>>50890215

Anon its only racist since you think of everything is a political reference

>>50890210
probably the same guy who decided he loved anime enough that the Tau had to be a thing.
Somewhere in GW headquarters is a very persistent weeb-furfag.

>>50890129
>>50890188
That's not how reproduction works and we all know it.

>Skaven: we breed breed really fast!

>Rational outsider: How do you feed yourselves? Everywhere you inhabit seems like a total wasteland.

>Skaven: um.....we eat EVERYTHING! Even other skavens when they die die!

>Rational outsider: Have you ever heard about thermodynamics?

>>50890238
so you're saying the truth is racist?

>>50890438
Do you often try to rationalise fictional societies of non existent beings?

Probably would have been more interesting at least logistically if they had genders, rather than just towering pillar of breasts giant females.

Like their entire lives consist of warring, slaving, and humping, and there's so many plus the usual skaven lack of value for life that even pregnant females aren't afforded any better privledge and still prodded forward to die in droves like the rest.

Though the towering breast pillar does win points at least for making them even more abnormal.

>>50890506
>Faction gets to be the epitome of Chaotic Stupid and yet not only maintains a sustainable population, but also wins an incredible number of against foes that are superior in almost every way and has Sci-Fi level Technology.
>Person asks How can this be explained aside from author favoritism?
>"H-hey man, t-their just fictional, s-s-stop being so critical."

This is a Wargame, and Wargames (in a perfect world, or in a well written one at least) shouldn't have designated protagonists, antagonists, or other such things that only manage to function the way they do because of plot armor. If you want your super-duper evil Rats to being intimidating or even notable with such a stupid social structure, you better have a damn good reason for it.

Also, wasn't there an Anon who was writing something in the last thread before it died? I wanted to see the rest of it.

>>50890070
>Can a more cartoonishly evil socity even exist?

Well, the W40K Imperium exists, so, yes. Yes it can.

>>50890238

Everything is political on the internet. EVERYTHING.

File: 77876ff8046b75dea9153dd02f91b345.jpg (32KB, 564x433px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 564x433px

>>50891374
Posts like this sustain me. I'm like a reverse troll, I lurk here to here intelligent shit.

I feel like a lot of the skaven bullshit can be explained simply by warp magic bullshit.
Dumb warp rat favors them and makes them able to survive from them doing anything and everything he wants.

>>50890438
Skaven grow crops though.

>>50890070
>>worships a god of EVIALS!!!!

To the Skaven he is a god of Skaven supremacy.

>Backstabs each other at the slightest provocation.

No. Though they may entertain the thought they won't backstab unless they're sure to succeed or desperate enough.

>ALL of them are cowards, lazy and general assholes of the highest caliber.

Not true. They vary in personality. Queek is not a coward. Ikit is not lazy.

>ALL addicted to radioactive meth.

It's more of an upper class thing. Thanquol was addicted but most Skaven won't get the chance to consume warpstone regularly.

>Rampant plagues that they are not immune to

They have good resistance to most contagions.

>Presumably all sorts of inbreeding going on.

Why would you think that? How would inbreeding affect monster ratmen anyway?

>ALL of them have egos the size of the universe.

Not true. Main characters tend too because it's funny, but the seething masses are quite subservient.

>Not a single attempt at long term harvesting.

They do harvest. Black corn is a Skaven crop that they can grow in the marshes around Skavenblight.

>They die at the age of 20 without magic and are naturally stupid.

They don't need to live long to accomplish things when they mature quickly, and Skaven are actually quite intelligent, being one of the most technologically sophisticated races.

How did industrial Britian survive? It's the same thing, but less evil.

>>50891908
>less evil.
india, hong kong and tasmania all say hi

>>50891937
Hong Kong was almost non-existent before Britain, and India did benefit, its pre-Britain rulers were every bit as assholeish as anything Britian could muster, only Tasmania has any right to really call Britain evil.

>>50891937
>imperialism was bad
When will this meme end?

>>50892200
Hong Kong was chinese land that was literally bought with a boat full of Opium. Worlds biggest drug deal, and calling that anything better than morally ambiguous is pushing it. India did benefit, but the actions of the british were definitively evil-millions were killed or starved, all productivity was based around exporting anything valuable, etc. It brought India crashing through to modern technology at the time, but it certainly was evil. Tasmania was straight up genocide. They were a genuine Evil Empire. Nothing wrong with that today, but still

>>50892268
>Hong Kong was chinese land that was literally bought with a boat full of Opium. Worlds biggest drug deal, and calling that anything better than morally ambiguous is pushing it.

The land was practically empty so it's not like any unfortunate natives got pushed out.

>>50892263
Me too, don't get me wrong, parts of it were bad but i'd wonder what kind of state india would be in if it didn't happen for example.

>>50892268
china was selling a bunch of goods to britain in exchange for stirling currency. losing all of that specie in a one-way flow of trade was considered an existential threat to the economy by economists and financiers of the time, so something had to be done to correct the trade imbalance. something the chinese would buy with their specie. hence, opium. not saying that it wasnt a dick move, but the empire at the time actually tried to justify it as economic self defense.

>>50892263
It wasn't evil, but was meant to only benefit the homeland not the colonies. Also racism developed as part of the superiority/inferiority thing.

>>50890070
>>50890093

I think the Drow win as they are so stupidly evil their God has to intervene from time to time so that they don't murder themselves out of existence

>>50890210
Story goes as it was told to me was Jess Goddwin and a few of the other sculptors at GW back in the late 80s were having a night at the pub after work, so they're shitfaced and talking shit about work when one of the other sculptors bets that Jess can't sculpt a rat-goblin, he takes the bet and goes home later that night, the next morning he rocks up to work with the proto-Skaven in tow and shows it off. The other guys are impressed and this then eventually leads to a whole range of what became the Skaven.

GW was a very different beast back then. Very different. I'm pretty sure that the Fimir came about after a round of bong hits.

>>50892459
>REPRODUCE BY RAPE
Probably.

But seriously, here's a nice article on them.

http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2014/04/07/bizarre-bestiary-fimir/

>>50890070
>Last I checked rats in real life are actually, smartie social animals
Fucking this. If the Skaven got a retcon where their society was based closer to what rats are actually like they'd be far more dangerous and scary. They'd also be the best friends you could ever have if they were on your side.

>>50892326
I get that part, but not sure why Hong Kong was brought up alongside other nations, Hong Kong wasn't fucked over, China was but then looking at Chinese history they are every bit as cruel and decadent as Britian, perhaps moreso.

>>50891435
>Everything is political on the internet. EVERYTHING.
I like candy bars.

>>50892636
Fucking liberal propaganda
>candy bar = chocolate often
>chocolate = black
trying to normalize race mixing with your (((candy bars)))

>>50890070
Is this warhammer only, or just stupid BBEG species in general, because I've been trying to get more into the star wars rpgs lately and im having a hard time figuring out how the sith ever managed to be a real threat to anyone.

>>50892617
They're supossed to be the scary half-mythical rats that cause plagues and sink ships. What sort of animal that was really evil would you have made into the numerous backstabbers?

>>50890438
I was under the impression that they're meant to become extremely desperate from a lack of food, so that they attempt to raid the good guys just to feed themselves.

It seems kind of depressing from a lore perspective.

>>50892617
They live in a society akin to rats in a utopia situation, there was a pretty famous experiment preformed with rats where they were afforded unlimited resources but limited space. This caused them to basically degenerate into hyper violent gangs or lethargic loners obsessed with aperance they would eat their own children and purposefully eat spoiled food in groups. Eventually there was no going back and every rat either dead alone or killed each other till none were left.

>>50890070
All a cartoonishly evil society needs to thrive is for good society to do nothing.

File: IMG_1208.png (959KB, 1063x794px) Image search: [Google]

959KB, 1063x794px

>>50892509
>WOW THIS GENERIC LIZARD RACE IS SO CREATIVE
>UM RAPE IS HORRIBLE THO YOU GUYS, IT RUINS THE MONSTERS LORE

The rape monster lore is literally what makes them interesting. It's unsettling and reveals they are a race of demonic spawn. That writer is a fag

>>50892832
>All a cartoonishly evil society needs to thrive is for cartoonishly good society to do nothing.
>and lots of anvils.

FTFY

>>50892320
>Me too, don't get me wrong, parts of it were bad but i'd wonder what kind of state india would be in if it didn't happen for example.
Literally the Middle East but 10x worse.

>>50890070

>Start to 1:39
https://youtu.be/0dv2VZU4Q3w

>>50892833
Actually the writer points out that it's intended to be part of a strong connection to Celtic myth. It just also sounds like something made while high.

>>50892833
>THE MONSTER RACE SHOULD NOT BE DOING ANYTHING MONSTEROUS

I hate these faggy SJW types.

>>50892940
celtic myth itself mostly sounds like a collection of stuff made while high, so i can see why anything based on it would lead to speculations about drug use

>>50892636
Fuck off you snicker-licking cuck

>>50890070
>are naturally stupid.
Where does it say this?

>>50892268
>Tasmania was straight up genocide. They were a genuine Evil Empire. Nothing wrong with that today
Wat

>>50892674
>trying to normalize race mixing with your (((candy bars)))
Oy vey I've been found out it's a chocolate shoah with a nougaty Nazi center

>>50892985
It does suck that they weren't popular. They're deeply rooted in myth to the point where it's exotic and interesting, unlike most of Warhammer which is surface level "DO YOU GET IT THEY'RE LIKE FAE FOLK" sort of shit.

>>50890210
So basically Chaos?

>>50890070
Warhammer Dwarves have a society that should have collapsed a long time ago.

>>50890093
Drow get micromanaged by there god
Both keeps them from getting to stable and stops them slipping into total anarcy

>>50892798
moar please

>>50892621
Definitely more so, no one in Britain ever forced children to bind their feet so they couldn't run away from arranged marriages when they grew up.

>>50893104
>Warhammer Dwarves have a society that should have collapsed a long time ago.
yea, no

>>50892798
[Citation Needed]

>>50893180
It's called the behavioral sink. The most well-known experiment involving the concept was called Universe 25.

It's also the inspiration for The Secret of NIMH.

>>50893104
Dwarves know more than any other race how to prevent collapse. They build the best mines.

>>50893209
They start generations-long blood feuds at the slightest provocations and do not believe in compromise or negotiations. They've raised an army then razed a city over a payment dispute of a single gold coin.

fantasy societies defined purely by being EVIL are generally stupid, yeah. as are ones that define a broad set of arbitrary moral/character traits/norms that ALL abide by without question.

the skaven society isn't entirely without real life mirror, though. firstly, they're a parody of fascism, and fascist governments tend to have a lot of similar traits (relentless infighting, shitty super science stuff, racist/nationalist ideology full of doublethink, etc). There are also prisons/criminal societies, which also have similar traits (very "shame"-based, social position maintained by violence, "clans"/gangs and offshoot gangs, drug use, male, most members die very young, TONS of posturing). So, Skaven society isn't really that far off from what is seen irl, just inflated and made into a caricature because that is more fun.

Individual skaven, imo, aren't "evil", and that's not a very descriptive term anyways. A lot of their nastiness can be ascribed to cultural shit, but they're still prey-minded and appear to have innate problems; the pressures of survival, however, force the vast majority to adopt something akin to a survivalistic "street" ethos that encourages violence and paranoia that accentuates their predisposed nastiness. There are skaven that buck the trend, and skaven that do "unskaven" things like seek profit via smuggling drugs to humans, or operate with unusual tenacity or loyalty. Its hard for a clan to really step out of line, though, since the grey seers serve as ideological purifiers that intentionally promote socially maladaptive traits since it keeps the clans from uniting (another fascist-style trait).

there's also just a lot of their society that isn't brought up or noticed since its a wargame and they're meant to serve as a particular archetype. But they do have boring things like bureaucrats.

some of this is my own fan wank shit, some of this is actually covered in the WHFRPG book "Children of the Horned Rat"

>>50893221
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink

http://www.lse.ac.uk/researchAndExpertise/researchHighlights/Environment/rats.aspx

>>50890093
So does Bretonia.

what is clearly needed to oppose the evil fascist rats and their broken system is a commurat revolution: its time for the common skaven proletari-rat to overthrow the corrupt ratocracy, and cheese the means of production from the lying seers and their warlord thugs!

>>50892414
The thing about Drow is that their goddess is a strange half-ancestor-deity half-demon-lord who constantly corrals them into doing fuckstupid things for her amusement, and instead of helping the race flourish she gives them power just to watch them topple each other (and occasionally scratch out at the surface) for her amusement.
Lolth is some shitty girl playing with her dolls and smashing them into the things she build instead of actually aiding them like the other gods, who give their power to proper champions and heroes.

>>50891374
here's the damn good reason:
it makes thematic sense

>>50891374
>aside from author favoritism?
It's not favourism. It's making a fantasy army concept without thinking about possible ramification.

>>50890070
they're addicted to radioactive meth, it's made them stupid

Also even in real life societies there are counter-cultures, the Skaven are just counter culture and use Evil as their own word

Beings don't do what they think is wrong, they do what is right to them and acting the way they act while calling it Evil because Evil is a word their enemies use is mocking

>>50893323
No, they aren't described as "forced by society to be assholes".

They're described as inherently narcissistic, rapacious, cruel and hypocritical.

>>50893480
Skaven never describe themselves as evil though.

>>50893440
That was actually a subplot in one of the Gotrek and Felix novels, it ended about as one would expect with the leader of the commurats getting delusions of godhood within the first ten seconds and then they all die because Rat Stalin was only about half as smart as he thought he was and half as brave as he needed to be.

>>50890070
Skaven society is a tyranny moderated by assassination.


It works because most skavens are more cowardly than they're ambitious, and the most ambitious skaven are never quite paranoid enough to avoid assassination forever.

It's a very fragile equilibrium of power that also relies heavily on how much resources they can plunder from other races and on how strong their devotion to the Horned Rat is.
Expectedly, Skaven history is full of massive civil wars that are only stopped when they come across a new plentiful resource or when their god directly intervenes to make them stop killing each other.

>>50893499
if you want to analyze at a fictional rat society in a wargame on a sociological level, you have to be able to draw your own conclusions, because the authors don't actually give a shit about realism (and really, realism can take a damn hike when it conflicts with what the authors want: if its not real to have a race of starscream idiots, then well i guess its not real????). it can be fun to flesh it out but that requires either being an official GW canon maker or just kind of fuckin along with what you think makes sense.

I think having a race be "inherently x" or "innately y" because Reasons is boring and is going to always result in societies that don't really make any sense when analyzed, and I think its worse when the work goes "well actually ALL members of species x are y". Human societies can produce incredibly broad changes in behavior without having to say that x or y is "innate". So, I look for real life societies and subcultures that are similar, and extrapolate from there. take it or leave it.

>>50893512
ha ha noice.

pretty close to the actual arc/fate of some proto-communist uprisings in China, actually.

>>50893611
>I think having a race be "inherently x" or "innately y" because Reasons is boring and is going to always result in societies that don't really make any sense when analyzed, and I think its worse when the work goes "well actually ALL members of species x are y". Human societies can produce incredibly broad changes in behavior without having to say that x or y is "innate". So, I look for real life societies and subcultures that are similar, and extrapolate from there. take it or leave it.

You're wrong to think that and your approach of worldbuilding sacrifices thematic purity in favor of character diversity. Which is not appropriate for a wargame with clearly defined factions

>>50893663
I don't think that the two things are inherently in conflict. There are plenty of wargames based on real life conflicts where the sides can fill thematic roles, without having to ascribe innate characteristics to their members: you just don't consider that sort of thing since it is largely irrelevant to the gameplay, rather than undermining it. And character diversity can serve to reinforce thematic points, as well, as those characters are defined by their relationship with the theme and the rest of their group. In Warhammer Fantasy, I think part of the appeal is based on being able to put your own personal touch and twist on your own troops, and demanding conformity to arbitrary traits can just undermine that principle and deny the ability to explore a thematic archetype.

>>50893507
Because they don't bother themself with such human concepts but if you actually manage to put a Skaven into a conversation and explain what the word evil means they probably would agree that they are evil.
Not that it is any kind of insult for them.

>>50893752
if a member of isis sat down and told you what evil was, i doubt youd agree with their conclusions

>>50892414
I think that you forgot to add the detail that their god is also the god of backstabbing.

The chaotic evil god of treachery and backstabbing has to stop their own people from treachery and backstabbing.

What the fuck is wrong with drow?

>>50892833
The frequent typos were what put the shits up me, but this passively offended tone when it gets to the "rape monster" part of the mist dwelling daemon blooded rape monsters is fucking annoying. Yeah, it's awful, it's meant to be, they're fucking monsters!

>>50893712
This is fantasy, and it's fiction, the advantage of fantasy is being able to make characters that perfectly fit an archetype, instead of just hinting at it on a collective, cultural level.

I don't just want a faction whose theme is "evil", or a faction whose role is that of the villain in a story, I want a faction of evil dudes.

And that is optimally achieved by saying "all my dudes are innately huge assholes" because it leaves no room for niceness in the faction.

If you just say "skaven are assholes only because their society/living conditions drive them to be assholes" then you can always say "oh then if they had different living conditions maybe they'd be nice", and that undermines the theme of the faction, because it makes their evilness purely contingent. Whereas if you say "skaven have a shitty society because they're assholes", then a nice skaven wouldn't be a proper skaven, and the skaven faction becomes purely, strongly evil, and that's much better in the context of that wargame.

>>50893781
I don't see how this is an accurate counter example.

>>50893278
But note they rarely fight offensively except for feuds and oaths, and their socities are mostly self-sufficent and have little strife or corruption.

>>50893781
Members of ISIS have a precise concept of what evil is. Skaven don't. In fact Skaven have no reason to reject that designation because the concept of "something that should never be done no matter the circumstances" is alien to them.

That comparison is terrible, proves nothing, and is a very transparent attempt to derail the conversation into a gratuitous circlejerk about how evil ISIS is.

>>50893875
get a grip, i used isis because if i used "nazi" for the stand-in then someone would have probably chimed in that the nazis were right

and yeah itd be alien as trying to tell a Roman or Mongol that they are "evil". they got a might makes right mindset. the point is, they'd view your beliefs, norms, and conduct as "weak", "stupid", or whatever their equivalent to "bad" is, rather than agreeing with you.

>>50893910
Then use romans or mongols as an example next time, instead of a culture that knows the concept of evil.

>>50890601

But gender is a social construct.

>>50893836
I suppose my own view is that "evil" as an archetype is a meaningless term. It doesn't do anything to explain why or how a group operates like that, and instead it just winds up coming off as very bland. I like to know the "why" of a group's behavior, since it helps get you into the mindset and motives more.

I don't sympathize with the argument that even the very idea an individual can be distinct in any way gets in the way of things. That doesn't even match GW canon about the rat bastards: there are skaven described as "unusually" brave and loyal, such as the council guard or various clans like Mange, and does describe how the various different levels of skaven society have different beliefs and attitudes due to circumstances.

I could go on, but I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this issue. I think "inherently evil" as a faction's hat is completely meaningless and thematically random and flat, and doesn't let people "get in the head" of the faction as well, and limits creativity or expression on the part of the player. And I don't think it really impacts the outcome in terms of faction theme insofar it matters at all for a wargame, aside from having arrived at the same location via a more organic process.

They're actually smartie social animals. The description is propaganda designed to make them look bad, but they're clearly not actually that way, since that society wouldn't sustain itself.

Because big K. And sotekh are taking a nap.

>>50894202
Who let that Skaven in?

>>50893383
It's pretty much Bourbon France with Arthurian trappings. About as evil as the Empire.

>>50894738
hav u ever throught that MAN is the real monster??

File: 1454470439642.jpg (38KB, 165x424px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 165x424px

>>50894750

File: unclevolodya6.jpg (17KB, 620x465px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 620x465px

>>50890070
Social darwinism.

Works pretty well in Russia.

File: seriously, bitch.png (244KB, 295x353px) Image search: [Google]

244KB, 295x353px

>>50892509
>>50892833
http://www.terminally-incoherent.com/blog/2013/08/19/gender-representation-in-fantasy-settings/

>WAAAH, WHY DON'T FICTIONAL RAT PEOPLE FOLLOW OUR STANDARDS OF GENDER EQUALITY!!!

Where do these fucking people crop from?

>>50893323
If you took a skaven babby and raised it in a human household, would it still turn out to be an evil asshole?

>>50895288
yes

>>50895294
Why?
Is it in their genes?

Is there any lore on how Skaven that have been brought up outside of Skaven society act like?

>>50890070
They only "reproduce by spores" if you're one of those jizz-guzzling idiots that GW feed their bullshit to that believed that literally everything that GW produced must somehow be 40k, because that is precisely when that explanation became most widely accepted, and eventually it led to an alternative to Warhammer Fantasy where the old Skaven aren't really a thing.

If you are one of these people, Skaven are not in 40k and thus literally nothing you have an opinion on about this particular subject matters.

>>50890210
Read "Skavenslayer".

>>50890210
Literally every race or faction is SOMEONE'S "Mary Sue" faction, as you might put it.
Archaeon for example read like a shitty edgy 12 year old's first fan fiction character for his favorite faction but holy fuck they could NOT stop jacking it to him.

>>50895315
Orcs in WHFB reproduce by spores just like their 40k counterparts m8.
Same probably applies to AOS orcs as well.

>>50890093
This

>>50890129
So Skaven are basically fluffy ponies but with some sort of super-Smarty Friends?

>>50895336
I guess it depends if you're a snot-nosed baby who grew up on the new fluff or not, but back in the day there was no such fuckin' thing, and it was better because it didn't reek of 40k writers trying to turn every fucking thing into 40k even when 40k's own fluff is so frequently in the goddamn shitter.

>>50895309
i think raising a mutant rat baby in a warhammer human household will result in things being fucked up regardless of intent or genetics

>>50895352

Orks that reproduce by spores is far, far better and more unique explanation for how they reproduce, than the previous stupid shit both 40k orks and Fantasy orcs had, and I am glad that GW applied that explanation to all of their orcs.

No other setting has orks that works like GW's.

>>50895309
>Is it in their genes?
they were either created magically by an insane sorcerer, or a mutation caused by wyrdstone

in either case "being an asshole" would be hard wired into them, because that's what magic and wyrdstone do

>>50893440

Rattacus is canon skaven, you know

>>50895364
Yeah, except that as a endless breeding race that is greenish and stupid and lives to make war their orcs are literally EVERYONE'S orcs these days and in fact were largely the originator of the modern orc as much of the modern "hulking green brute" comes from WarCraft which was originally inspired by/going to be (depending on who you ask) Warhammer Fantasy and everyone copied it.
It's like saying your car is super ultra different because it has solid bronze hubcaps; sure it's an odd little thing that's unique and may surprise amuse the easily impressed, but functionally speaking there's no difference at all.

I'm actually NOT opposed to the 40k explanation in 40k because it makes sense in 40k, as much as anything makes sense in 40k does.
But the primary reason why it makes sense in 40k is often stated to be the same why it makes sense in fantasy, and yet that largely displays a frankly unsurprising level of ignorance about the subject matter in question.

>>50895401
it makes no less sense in fantasy than it does in 40k.

File: IMG_3701.png (42KB, 360x300px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 360x300px

>>50895401
To whit; THIS was everyone's orc back in the day, inspired directly by Tolkien's own descriptions and copied by D&D which was kinda one of the more prevalent and widely-consumed fantasy media of all time.

>>50894101

>why

Skaven average lifespan is 3-4 years, they constantly suffer from hyperoverpopulation (one of the few reasons they go at war), are constantly on the brink of famine, have a tyrannical government of immortals

Wonder how they could be assholes

>>50895413
Okay; why does it make sense in fantasy, in so far as it makes any sense at all.
Chances are I already know the answer.

>>50895422
yeah and thats cool and interesting.

did you think i don't agree with this?

>>50890070
Welcome to the shitty world-building son, where "edgy" wins with everything else.

>>50895425
Not him, but population?
Like how else could they sustain fighting numbers otherwise? Especially given that they live in pretty harsh areas.

>>50895425
Why doesn't it supposedly make sense in Fantasy?
It is simply a reproductive solution that allows the orcs to exists as they are, without stupid shit like female orcs.

>>50895430

Yea so what the hell is your argument? This is all codex canon.

>>50895437

Skaven live everywhere and suffer from the opposite problem. Skaven females are mutated beasts that shit out more skaven than they can support, so they periodically go to war to curb population.

Skavenblight is heavily farmed, like every other skaven territory. They also are fish breeder (clan Scurvy, at least)

>>50893809
She's also the one that enforces them being such backstabing dickholes, and if they aren't, SHE starts killing them too.

Its a very odd sysem.

>>50895236
>Doesn't understand that Skaven are supposed to be the worst traits of man distilled.

He should be smothered in rats.

>>50895447
that I like "assholes because reasons" instead of "innate assholes regardless of circumstance" as a point of preference in fiction?

idk why youre getting angry about it

>>50895437, >>50895439
Called it.
Everyone gives that explanation, but it largely shows a complete ignorance of Renaissance-era population dynamics and how big armies actually WERE.

Armies of 3000 soldiers (not including support and noncombatants) seems like not much to modern eyes, but back in the day you could EASILY sack an entire city and raze it right to the goddamn foundations back in the roughly 16th century time period the Old World is in.

It's simply a matter of population density and logistics of the time period; the listed populations for places like Altdorf is around 100k, which means MY middle-sized city outstrips the population of the Empire's largest metropolis by around 30k.
Now let's be REALLY generous and assume 5% of that population is a soldier or has soldier experience, even though that's a huge number for the time. That's just 5000k people, which seems like by 40k standards or people who don't understand military logistics to not be a suitably epic number, but it's a fucking CRAZY amount of soldiers for the time period.
Orcs don't NEED to be an endless horse race that breeds just by existing and getting angry because a relatively large horde of 4000 would have a solid chance of obliterating one of the Empire's largest cities of it had no backup by destroying it's military force.
Orcs don't NEED to be endlessly respawning like a Call of Duty player because even orcs being an entirely militarized society would mean they could dominate or cripple most major forces. In addition, the conditions that the orcs survive in only seem impossible to survive in idiots who seem to magically discount the orcish toughness for the purposes of winning their arguments.

An easy way to explain orcs having more people? They reach physical adulthood faster and tend to have shorter pregnancy terms. That alone is a massive advantage to any species.

>>50895529
Nobody said they need it, just that it is a fine explanation and lets you avoid shit like pregnant Orcs and child rearing.

>>50895529
My argument had nothing to do with numbers dumbshit.
It was about orks reproudcing spores is a way to GET RID of female orks, that in no way, fit the race, and only serve to pointlessly make them more human like.

>>50895529
Some more basic math.
Back in the Middle Ages, roughly 3 to 4% of the population was a trained soldier and on average it was something like 15 adults to every professional soldier just due to supply logistics.
Levies were semi-common, but most "peasant levies" as /tg/ thinks of them were more like Army National Guard soldiers; they knew how to fight and had training, but it wasn't their actual job or anything. This is largely because completely untrained civilians in a fight are pretty much more damaging to YOU then the enemy; they immediately run when shit gets hard which ruins your infantry line and means you spend all that food on them for nothing and probably ruins your line of battle and exposes whatever flank you had them on.
The heavy usage of giant numbers of infantry only really started right around the time musket warfare became a thing because you needed absurd numbers of people to make the tactics work at all.
>>50895552, >>50895555
Why do you not need female orcs?
Do you have a logical reason, or do you just not like them? The opinion-based thing is totally acceptable because opinions are subjective.

>>50895555
It would also make them a little like the LotR film's Uruk-hai, which I thought were super cool.

>>50895578
Interestingly, the novel's Uruk-hai were tall for an orc because they were ALMOST as tall as...an average human being.
It's hilarious what time and misinformation can do to a visual representation.

>>50895575
>Why do you not need female orcs?

They look like shit and don't contribute anything to the race.

>>50895575
>Why do you not need female orcs?
Because they are not necessary for Orks to work as a concept, and in many ways, make them far too human like for my liking. Having females and children muddles up the core concept of warhammer orcs, which is warlike green barbarians that love destruction, mayhem and wanton violence, by forcing the writers to think up how orks raise their kids, how they court their mates, how they protect their families and offspring from the wanton violence they so enjoy etc.

Orcs reproducing via spores allows the orcs to stay more focused in their core aspects, without involving unnecessary complications to their society.

>>50895585
Right, but I'm more talking about the weird breeding pit scene. That's basically how Orks reproduce, which I would honestly be okay seeing go to Orcs.

>>50895592
Neither does the fungus part.
The only "function" of fluff is contribute background to the wargames, which is the only "function" in the entire franchise. Everything else is just icing on a game rules because it's mutable and you could literally write literally anything and then have orcs and play them in the game.
You could say "orcs are shat out by other orcs" and it would be stupid but equally "functional" because the fluff exists like GW paint's exists to paint the models; they make it less dull then playing with blank ones and beyond that have no practical effect whatsoever.

So opinion is what you have then, not a logical argument.
This is completely valid and I won't argue it.
>>50895597
This also is an opinion, and thus I won't argue it, though I could go into a spiel about how pretentious it is to assume anything GW ever does anymore is about core "themes" beyond fucking their customers up the ass so hard that they shit blood for the rest of their lives and then demand they pay them 50% bucks for the privilege of it.

>>50895575
There is also the issue that most armies didn't have logistics in the way we think of today, with them "living off the land"(systematically looting and razing everything) rather than shipping food around to sustain a army during a campaign.

File: 1478710224102.jpg (32KB, 640x533px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 640x533px

pic unrelated but I want one for camping
>>50893453
kill your son, do it, do it, do it... oh wow, you were going to do it: whatafag, love me bitch.
>>50893875
>Members of ISIS have a precise concept of what evil is.
yeah, everyone who isn't them
>>50893910
>someone would have probably chimed in that the nazis were right
They were asholes but they weren't entirely wrong. Here they are at play; note all the headscarves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6wbKV4Fou8

>>50890070
>Almost 2017
>Amazed that some element of Warhammer is shit
>Actually surprised the setting is illogical and stupid
How new are you?

>>50895630
>Neither does the fungus part.

The fungus part serves a purpose in allowing them to act silly and hyper violent all the time while not going extinct.

>>50895632
This is mostly a confusion caused by the behavior of later armies and assuming it's how earlier ones worked.
They did live off the land SOME (in the "taking from farms" sense), but they didn't need to raze farmland for food and the like until military forces got terribly unwieldy for the lack of logistics at the time and led to horrible situations like the 30 Years War where ultimately the entire thing was pointless as the land the armies had been fighting over had been stripped bare to uselessness to feed the people fighting the wars constantly.
In fact there's some examples in earlier eras of hangings for soldiers taking food off land to be won because that was stealing from land that a lord that was fighting over said land, and since most medieval taxes are paid for the produce of said land you're effectively devaluing it before he even gets to enjoy it himself.

>>50895652
It also explains why they always eventually come back even if they suffer crippling defeats, have their forts and camps raided and every living ork put to the sword.

>>50890506
>Do you often try to rationalise fictional societies of non existent beings?
This is an extremely stupid thing to ask on /tg/ of all places.

>>50895652
The entire SETTING is silly and hyperviolent and makes no sense. It's a fantasy setting filtered through 80's metal albums and Michael Moorcock works though most players don't even know who that IS anymore, sadly.
And it's only fiction is to provide paint, so to speak.

It has literally no bearing on the actual rules, and in fact GW has shown it is willing to be rather flexible when it comes to fluff (read; they ignore it whenever they feel like it and write new shit instead) and write whatever rules they feel like irrespective of whatever goes into the books.

>>50895675
Another explanation is that humans tend to largely avoid orc homelands.
The orcs are largely focused in the mountains (more Night Goblins then orcs in this case) and the southern Badlands and the Dark Lands over the World's Edge.

All of which have no human settlements.

>>50895685
In all fairness, were ARE already wasting time on a waste of time talking about our personalized wastes of time.

It's pretty hard to get more stupid and trivial then we already are just by being in /tg/.

>>50895690
>The entire SETTING is silly and hyperviolent and makes no sense.

Not really. Things are exaggerated but other races don't live to fight and have brawling as their main pass time.
Men, Elves and Dwarfs obviously have nurturing and loving sides, while Orcs having the same would harm their thuggish personality.

>>50895740
Like I said; I won't argue with your subjective opinion because it's a subjective opinion.
It's as legitimate as my annoyance with GW's management changes and willingness to screw over it's consumer base so hard since the 90's ended.

>>50895778
>subjective opinion because it's a subjective opinion.
It's not subjective if it makes the setting better.

>>50895597
Aldiss had a necrogenic species in his hellicona books, herd animals that die and the offspring comes out. That was pretty cool/weird as a concept. Good series actually, was very interesting reading as a boy.

>>50895786
And there we go. Subjectivity.
Let's do it this way; WHY does it make the setting better? In fact, let's go even smaller then that, make it easier.

Why does it make JUST ORCS better?

>>50895796
Like >>50895597, >>50895555 said, it makes them less human and helps distinguishes them from other fantasy orcs, and removes female orcs.

>>50895810
Very good. These are true.
And why do these things matter to objectively improve things, in a tangible way that affects the physical reality of the game?

>>50895796
>Why does it make JUST ORCS better?

It strengthens their character by removing the need for courtship and child rearing and the associated behaviors.

>>50895820
By distinguishing it's fluff it makes it more notable in the industry, makes it more successful.

>>50895820
>And why do these things matter to objectively improve things

By making the race more appealing and therefore attracting customers who will spend money on products which in turn allows the company to exist.

>>50895827
Possibly, but also impossible to prove.
GW is successful because it was the among the FIRST fantasy models wargame akin to D&D being the FIRST P&P game; the age and brand name automatically creates success, and when it started there was no real serious competition so you can't actually collect meaningful data.
This is especially true when other fantasy settings like WoW have proven much more publicly well known and financially successful despite if anything being even more generic then the generic parts of WF's setting, but that's a harder and less fair comparison to make given the media style differences between them.
So while it's POSSIBLE it's true, you have not enough data to prove it, while I can sufficiently prove with very little effort that establishes franchises can very easily be quite successful regardless of actual originality.

What we are then left with is your subjective opinion which is difficult to verify and support with facts.
>>50895823
Please anon, at least >>50895827 provides an answer grounded in reality and not obvious subjectivity.

>>50895868
Oh, in addition to all this GW's exclusive focus on their model game lines only happened in the early 90's.
Prior to that the company also made quite a bit distributing existing traditional games to the UK population rather then focusing on original content, so it's still not inherent to the company's success since it kind of got it's start differently.
>>50895838
Answered this already, but I'll just point out that clearly they didn't care THAT much about it because they canceled the game line.

>>50895868
>Please anon, at least >>50895827 provides an answer grounded in reality and not obvious subjectivity.

It's not subjective though.
Money earned is an objective measure of success for a company.
For money that sells mostly on the strength of its IP, themes and character are like genes.

>>50895898
Except, like I said, that's based off of evidence that's difficult to correlate with GW's success because they were such an early example of fantasy wargaming as to be nearly unique.
Does this newly added (because to be sure, the idea that orcs are fungus in fantasy is post-2008) bit improve it?

Possibly, but they already WON a huge fan mbase with the setting's originality before you started playing and quite likely before you were even BORN if you're under the age of 30, so it clearly wasn't necessary at first as it is a retcon and by the late 90's it had enough of it's own franchise steam to not even really need anything else to keep going as long as sales held up.

>>50895954
To list the other franchises before Warhammer Fantasy Battles (1983);

>Warlord (1983)
>Royal Armies of the Hyborian Age (1975)
>Middle-Earth Wargame Rules (1976)

It's not like it had stuff competition for needing originality at first, and at first if DIDN'T since 1e Warhammer had half-orcs as army options straight out of 1e D&D, and only dropped it in the early 90's at which point it was already quite successful and wouldn't add the "fungi orcs" explanation in WFB for another decade or so.

>>50895954
>Except, like I said, that's based off of evidence that's difficult to correlate with GW's success

Not really. GW knows what things sell.
They're not omniscient, but if they decided that Orcs are spores based then they did so for a reason.

>>50892459
>GW was a very different beast back then. Very different.

I believe the term is 'Fun'

>>50895661
As far as a know, burning crops and the like was a very common tactic during medieval times, both to hurt the enemy economy and supply the soldiers(that were more or less state-funded bandits).

>>50895998
>Not really. GW knows what things sell.
This is ALSO not true.
In fact their communication with both their customer AND shareholder base is particularly bad, and when anyone asks questions (even people who own a financial stake in the company itself) that literally refuse to give an answer!
http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop%3A-denial
http://www.iii.co.uk/news-opinion/richard-beddard/games-workshop’s-revenue-problem

In addition, the changing of the fluff has nothing to do with game sales and everything to do with who's writing the game books at the time, which has literally nothing to do with model sales but rather is a response to a desire to write a new edition to sell more models and rule books and thus is based purely on whoever is assigned the job of writing said fluff in the book, which means the fluff is not collectively decided on by the employees at their home office but by the whims of precisely one guy doing his job.

>>50896004
Again, this effectively destroys the reason you want the land at all; it's crops. Taxes were paid by peasantry via their land production they farmed for their lords, so damaging it was counter-productive if you wanted the land to be valuable.
You're thinking of chevauchée tactics which was first used in the very late states of the Medieval period largely as a response to the increasing numbers of infantry (the so-called "Infantry Revolution"), and in fact was first used i the 100 Years War by Britain largely as a way to equalize their match-up with France, which had more land to farm and thus more people and thus more knights and thus more professional soldiers.

Basically they came upon the bright idea that even if they damaged a shitload of the land they were fighting over it'd still be a net gain for Britain due to size differences in addition to depriving France of valuable resources.
The tactic at the time is so famous because it was widely regarded as incredibly vicious, and checked Edward the Black Prince's rep forever for using it.

>>50896113
To elaborate; it was not NEVER used, but it was hardly regular practice.
The 100 Years War just made it much more standard strategies as sieges became the name of the game and thus depriving your enemy of resources useful in a siege became as much or more valuable then actually fighting him.

>>50896113, >>50896132
Actually I could elaborate a lot more on this and it's long-term consequences for European warfare, but that's pretty well off-topic.

This thread makes me sad sad.
Man thing doesn't find us fun fun anymore.

>>50896176
I do.
I'm just sorry what your company has done to you in the meantime.

>>50893466
>Thematic sense
You mean that thing Chaosfags start crying about whenever some one questions why the least liked faction gets to autowin the setting, despite the fact that In their quest to make Chaos edgy and supercool, GW has abandoned what would have made such a scenario poetic and thematically meaningful in the first place.

Thematic Value is a stupid justification that can be argued for literally anything if you can bullshit hard enough. If you're abandon logic for "rule of cool", at least admit it before you do so (or in GW's case, make sure what you're trying to implement is actually cooler than what you already had).

>>50896176
Sorry man, but you aren't as cool as you used to be anymore.

>>50896181

I fear to ask, but what has gw done to skaven in AoS?

>>50896208
>Implying Chaos was the least liked faction

>>50895211
So a bunch of backstabbing people that are the main reason why their country has serious problems?

>>50896232
Basically nothing.
Skaven are unchanged except for the fact that they have moved locales.

>>50896208
Can you get more annoying with whining?

>>50896279
>*with your whining

>>50890438

>eat everything including their dead
>point out "flaws" as if skaven exclusively ate their own dead

shit poster.

>>50895529
>Armies of 3000 soldiers (not including support and noncombatants) seems like not much to modern eyes, but back in the day you could EASILY sack an entire city and raze it right to the goddamn foundations back in the roughly 16th century time period the Old World is in.


It really matters as to when and were if a Army of 3000 could do just that. There are two really big factors. First the size of the city. A larger city is more area to encircle and a larger workforce to patch the walls. Most of the time the besieging army needs to be around 1/5 or more of the population of the city to make reasonable progress. A well fortified and garrisoned city moves that to 1/4 of the population or more.

The second factor is the balance of artillery to defense engineering. In the mid 15th century the balance heavy favored artillery. There was one case during the First Italian War that 1400 took a city 9000 ( or was it 11000?, long time since reading up on the subject). Wall design did improve to the needed level to go back to the old way of things.

>Now let's be REALLY generous and assume 5% of that population is a soldier or has soldier experience, even though that's a huge number for the time. That's just 5000k people, which seems like by 40k standards or people who don't understand military logistics to not be a suitably epic number, but it's a fucking CRAZY amount of soldiers for the time period.

The issue here is that the urban population is very small compared to the rural population of a area. North Italian states had 18% of their total population in urban centers in the 16th century. France had 11% and Poland had 8.5% respectively. Altdorf is the largest city in the empire, but far from the only big city. Germany at the start of the 16th century had 10.8 million people. The Empire has a larger land area but does not have control of all of its lands. Ball park it at half maybe?

>>50896476
I think half might be a little generous.
Those forests they live in are pretty goddamn hostile what with all the beastmen and minor goblin and orc tribes hiding in them at any given time.
Also, recall that even if the Empire's population IS that great they can't call upon too much of it at once because of how the Elector System works and how each province is it's own tiny country basically.

>>50890506
Yes since It's the prime objective of well done world building.

>>50890070
You successfuly described America.

>>50896630
Well memed, dork.

Care to explain what God of Evil us burgers are worshipping?

>Inb4 typical yuro response of muh capitalism.

>>50895529
>It's simply a matter of population density and logistics of the time period

Those logistical limitations were much more practical and administrative than they were technological. States weren't centralized enough to maintain huge arimes and there was no pressure to force them to get that centralized until fortification technology really took off and everyone had to have heaps of trained guys on hand at all times.

The warhammer world did not face the same incentives as ours. Threats there are constant, and can regularly appear in force with no warning whatsoever (a rare fear indeed in our world). Levies and conscripts are even more worthless too. Even a moderately disciplined mecenary unit is questionable in the extreme. Such units dominate OTL warfare for a long time, but they were deployed facing other moderately disciplined mercenaries. How long do you suppose a stranger from a city half continent away who maybe knows how to thrust a pike past someone's shoulder without fucking up the formation and really is only here because thicc peasant chicks wouldn't fuck him back when he made a living as a candle maker is going to last when instead he faces a wizard calling forth the dwellers below, an ogre who starts eating his comrades right on the battlefield, a shrieking hellpit abomination, a battalion of dark elves wearing leather cloaks made exclusively from human faces, or literal rape deamons?

No, every city in Warhammer world would have needed a large permanent garrison of professional troops. You need a fighting force fit to defend the place at the drop of the hat because beastmen might start boiling out of the woods half a days march away with no more warning than a missing woodsman or too, and that fighting force needs to be ready to deal with some real shit and be 100% to give their lives or more to hold the wall.

That means standing arms. Big ones.

>>50896232
they shoved them ass first into the mainstream chaos faction in an effort to shore up how painfully lame they've become, making skaven less cool by association.

plus because it's AoS they got gnawholes in the stormwyrp or whatever the fuck.

>>50890070
This is just human society though

>>50896817
How does Bretonnia survive though? They have a distinctly feudal system, despite everpresent Ork and Beastmen threats. If you gather some knights together they might defeat some tougher stuff, but their peasant levies are not only badly equipped and trained, but their morale is horrible - they aren't even well motivated like some real world medieval levies could be, like in Scotland.

>>50897761
>How does Bretonnia survive though?

Soggy broad magic, Empire propping them up, authorial fiat.

>>50891374
>Wargame faction needs to make sense.

Not really. An army of magitek using insane ratmen is super fun to play, but difficult to justify. I'd like to see someone try to make half the factions even remotely "realistic", and see how boring they get.

>>50895416
Check your bullshit.

DnD orc is pig headed, very much different in stylistic fom Warhammer Orc archetype that was incorporated into Warcraft.

Tolkienesqe orcs are completely different. They have knack for tech and are more or less fantasy Germans (so word evil is reundant), as he often stated.

>>50897761
The peasants are inbred to the point of being almost completely subservient in most circumstances and typically live only to grow and harvest their crop, which is of course given to the local Lord as tax. The nobility, while not as numerous as the peasants, still poses strong numbers and are more or less ubermenschen. A great many male nobles will never move past Knights Errant, so at all times you have an assload of well-trained, reasonably-well equiped and healthy mounted knights roaming the country, hoping to make a name for themselves and attract the favor of anyone that might grant them a fief. Put that on top of the Lady, who actively protects them on home territory, and Bretonnia tends to fare pretty well.

>>50897761
Adding to >>50898071 , peasants often willingly join militias on account of it offering them higher status, pay and so forth, and the chance of dying in the name of the Lady, which gets them a better spot in the afterlife. If they're really lucky, they can become Pilgrims and carry the corpse of a Grail Knight around and into battle.

>>50898071
Inbred, stupidly poor peasants always seemed stupid to me. I prefer the idea of peasants that are heavily taxed and ill-educated, but are about as good physically as Empire peasants, and have enough wealth for small-time trade wih nearby towns and villages and to support some craftsmen.

>>50898168
Well, you're not too far off, they do most of the things you described but they remain inbred. It's not to like... Fundamentalist Mormon/Jehovah's Witness levels, where "children" are born as piles of sludge (at least it's not stated to be that bad). By in large it's because all the peasants in a given area have been there for many, many generations, and beyond collecting taxes and occasionally requesting men to join the militia to fight against whatever is a problem, the nobles actually leave peasants alone. Peasants have their own law and court system, and their own traditions, holidays, religious practices (nobles focus exclusively on the Lady, who is their patron, but peasants also recognize several gods that you'd find in the Empire) and the like. The inbreeding just means they're typically more docile. Don't complain about their status so much and more readily accept what nobles give them. It also means they look goofier, on average, than Imperial peasants.

File: IMG_0363.png (1007KB, 900x1281px) Image search: [Google]

1007KB, 900x1281px

>>50890070

An alternate direction that the skaven 'could' have gone would have been to up the potency/relivence of the skaven fear factor up to 11. Instead of having a lord about how hugely MEGABAD!! They are. Instead make a lore about how they cannot be allowed to reach global domination because they would kill every other living thing in 'self defence' and then be forever be stuck in a loop of paranoia induced infighting For the rest of existence. Bring to prominence that it's actually rather tragic that an otherwise decent group has to be killed before they kill you.

>>50898247
So what is goofier? Are they mutants?

>>50898661
No offense but that's really fucking stupid and the normal Skaven interpretation is a lot better than that shit.

File: 1470588543714.png (209KB, 1342x1190px) Image search: [Google]

209KB, 1342x1190px

>>50893453
Drow are North Korea.

>>50899320
Side note on the food situation; my Forgotten Realms character is a dark elf who was raised among and by humans, and so growing up had a far more robust diet than any dark elf ever gets, plenty of fruits, vegetables, dairy, meat, and starches.

As a result, she is 5' 5'' tall, and also somewhat heaver than is typical for elves of that height at a little over 120 pounds, which means she is positively gigantic by the standards of drow.

>>50890070
That´s not too far away from Brazil and they´re doing relatively OK.

>>50890484

Are you our resident /pol/tard? You're not red pilling anyone acting like an evangelical pastor.

I voted trump and I think you're a loser.

>>50890070
>ITT: People genuinely surprised Warhammer is a shit setting that makes no logical sense

>>50893611

I liked where you were going until you said realism can take a hike yet need diversity because muh realism

>>50890070
So....if I am correct, you're asking how human society is still not extinct?

Well... look around.

File: 1480716765457.jpg (24KB, 480x300px) Image search: [Google]

24KB, 480x300px

>>50892263

>>50900130
Don´t forget the Aztecs where also enforcing systematic genocide, and the neighboring tribes raised in arms as soon as the newcomers gave them the slightest promise of getting back at them.

Then making all those natives citizens and shortly after recognizing that they were indeed humans with full rights and souls.

Fucking British propaganda

>>50900130
You know a lot of imperial powers more or less thought it wasn't possible to raise up the natives beyond saving souls, right? Or the dominant whites were all 'if the natives gain power and political influence, we lose wealth/free labour/ our social status' and did their best to keep the natives down, and created most of the causes of today's current strife, because infrustructure was organized for getting valuable resources out instead of for a self-sufficent country, and an ill-educated bunch of locals kept down by distant military power suddenly got left on their own without any attempt by former colonial empires to guide them into being a proper country, instead dropping them like hot potatoes?

>>50892263
>Implying it wasn't
When will /pol/ get the fuck out from /tg/?

>>50890210
Are you fucking daft m8
Skaven snuff literally exists in every single army book. Their entire premise is they're like cartoon bad guys- despite their superior numbers and doomsday devices they still lost, but they'll "win" NEXT time! You'll see!
They're a neat concept with goofy army mechanics. That's pretty much it.

>>50900130
>Spanish
>Taught anyone anything
>Especially sanitation
Anon...

>>50900130
how are those silver mines doing?

>>50900130
Incas were alright though. They had a pretty fucking gigantic empire given that they only had foot messengers. Spaniards fucked them right over.

Also, encomienda.

Not that the Spanish Empire wasn't an accomplishment for its time, but if you want to talk about "enlightening the populace," lolno. They enslaved them all and just went "welp, time to hit up Africa" when they died of disease.

>>50900021
wasn't really going for realism as a justification. my point was that an author has a particular design goal when making a fantasy society but that if you want to analyze in a very /tg/ fashion, then you have to recognize that youre going to have to come up with your own interpretations.

in my own subjective opinion, i think that, in lieu of monobehavior, i like it when characters have motive and some level of rationality behind their actions; even in an absurd caricature society you can have actors that are "realistic" without having to be boring about it. i compare to real life groups as a means to figure why a character might behave in a fashion without it being reduced to "well they're just dicks".

i also read history books and sociology shit for fun so i might just be fucked in the head, so w/e

>>50900236
>You know a lot of imperial powers more or less thought it wasn't possible to raise up the natives beyond saving souls, right?

were they wrong?

>>50890210
>if they ever got even close to fully unified that every other race would be simultaneously fucked six ways from Sunday.

Literally a more impossible win condition than dwarves had.

File: IMG_1047.png (164KB, 786x570px) Image search: [Google]

164KB, 786x570px

>>50893383

>>50900396
>They enslaved them all and just went "welp, time to hit up Africa" when they died of disease.

That's the English in North America. South America wasn't genocided like that. They certainly were enslaved though.

>>50890438
you've never dealt with a real rat infestation, have you

they

eat

everything,

stupid

seriously: you think thermodynamics is going to be the limiting factor here?

let's review:

they live underground in such stupidly large numbers that their own heat and moisture would become sources of heat and moisture for the colony as a significant factor, so they genuinely don't need to worry about freezing to death or dehydration (of which more later, but bear in mind rodents require very little water daily, and not just because of their small size)

they breed fast: real rats are sexually mature at 6 weeks; they have a gestation of 6 weeks and average litters of around 7 rats (and up to double figures) and live for around 2 years, so a single breeding pair gives you 40 rats average in under 20 weeks, and at the end of the first year (because they seriously give 0 fucks about inbreeding) - around 286,036 rats have been born

lots it's true die to attrition, inter-nest competition, and so on, but they're born - from a single initial pair - under ideal conditions; by the end of the second year, as the progenitors die of old age, you have millions

there is no reason to assume Skaven are any less prolific, or take anything like as long as men to reach maturity

>food

rats literally eat shit: they're what are known as hindgut fermenters

you ever hear a rodent gnawing on the rafters? they're preparing next week's meals, as well as grinding down their teeth

the first pass derives a little nutrient (including, occasionally, a little trapped moisture) from the wood; it also imparts bacteria from the rodent's long intestine (where mammals have the highest concentrations of bacteria but the lowest ability to absorb certain types of nutrients) to the fecal waste; this digests the cellulose further, releasing water (as it's a hydrocarbon) and creating simpler sugars which, on re-ingestion, the rodent gains the benefit of

you can't even eat grass, let alone wood

>>50898247
Jehovah's Witnesses are not born as piles of sluge nor are we inbred what are you talking about?

>>50890070

>worships a god of EVIALS!!!!
Not really a problem : plenty of wrathful gods across History.
Some civilizations thrive for centuries worshipping those.

>Backstabs each other at the slightest provocation.
That might be a problem but, really, it's probably not that big of a deal the higher you go on the ladder, as the top guys are just too strong, too wise and too paranoids to get killed easily.
Wasn't there a piece of lore saying something about the dudes on the Council of 13 not having changed for at least 2 centuries or something ?

>ALL addicted to radioactive meth.
Not an issue if they die faster than the meth can ravage their body anyway.
Average lifespawn of a slave is pretty short.

>ALL of them are cowards, lazy and general assholes of the highest caliber.
And most don't get the chance to exhibit the magnitude of these traits because of the whip.

>Rampant plagues that they are not immune to.
Most don't die of said plague.

>Presumably all sorts of inbreeding going on.
When we work with high enough numbers, the herd is thinning itself of the worst abveration.

>ALL of them have egos the size of the universe.
The worst case get killed by their superiors pretty quickly. The others learn.

>Not a single attempt at long term harvesting.
We rarely hear about dwarves and elves farming.
Doesn't mean they ain't doing it.

> They die at the age of 20 without magic and are naturally stupid.
See early human societies : most people barely reached their 40s and were pretty ignorant.

Rats in real life are assholes to each others, with constant domination plays that only go worst as the pack's size increase.
Either there's enough food and the pack keep expanding until all social bonds collapse (see Calhoun experiments)
Or there isn't enough food and the weakest rats run away before competition kills them.
They can be smart, playful, ect... but they can also be nasty and vicious when needed.

>>50900857
>most people barely reached their 40s

Not true. Atrocious rates of infant mortality skew the numbers. If you didn't die before age 10, you could expect to live to 70 or so.

>>50900454

I would think rationality could be justifiable in any situation.

>What is rational to you? Is the apple red or green? Perception. Blah blah blah metaphysics blah blah.

If your God tells you to do stuff, you do it. That leaves us with a divine beings motives and we know how those assholes are.

I'm no stranger to lore autism, but I think that individualism has no real place and to do such would be a massive undertaking in fleshing out a universe with all your snowflakes. Besides, if anything could be anything, what's the point of anything?

File: 1373205578733.jpg (27KB, 362x469px) Image search: [Google]

27KB, 362x469px

>>50892509
>Unfortunately not all tropes are positive, or worth perpetuating. Using mythology as the source of inspiration does not excuse perpetuating rape culture in fantasy fiction.

Is this real life?

>>50900971
I find it weird how he makes no mention of that earlier in tue article, and then pulls that twist. Wouldn't even run them in his games since he won't homebrew no rape.

>>50893183
That's not related with the empire though. Britain, China or any country would bind feet or not bind feet regardless of their imperialism.

>>50900914
i dont think a massive undertaking would really be needed? even in real life, most people in a defined group are basically the same. sure, everyone's their own snowflake with distinctions and little stories, but there's still a very overriding habitus that defines self and behavior that binds them. you don't really need to overcomplicate things when writing the actors, just remember that people generally do things for reasons, even if theyre just stupid ones

with fictional characters, I think its pretty obvious when a character behaves without clear, remotely sensible, or relatable motives. its one of the many reasons people shit on Archaon, for instance. People's judgements and justifications can be wrong, contradictory, hypocritical, and so on and so forth, but it still grants them a motive and a purpose to the things they do.

and yeah i wanna be clear that i don't like homogeneity in fantasy and it really grinds my gears the way shit like WoW or Guild Wars 2 tramples all distinction between factions or character mindsets. I think it stems from a similar lack of creativity: "well if these guys aren't evil, they must think just like me!" (or worse, they're "good" and thus run around blindly and arbitrarily promoting whatever the author's cause that day is). and i mean shit that ain't even true in real life: people in the past or in foreign countries, are "just like us" in that they're human beings but they sure as hell ain't some modern day westerner in a funny costume with cute little morals.

>>50900604
t.skaven

Go back to your hole you vermin filth. For Sigmar,FOR THE EMPIRE!

>>50900604
>what is Entropy.

>>50895236
>Where do these fucking people crop from?
Read the article which suggests that the opening scene of saving private ryan should have featured female soldiers because gender equality is more important than historical accuracy.

It's fucking hilarious.

File: 70b7ff0614c664c14e89dab19c4522ad_400x400.jpg (21KB, 400x400px) Image search: [Google]

21KB, 400x400px

>>50892833
This. Faggots don't know that rape is where it's at. A species that don't rape is like Anal without the A.

>>50900913
this man speaks the trurth!

>>50895331
Thats because he is.

Fortunately GW are aiming for that audience

>>50902203
>fortunately

>>50902203
When has anyone liked what GW is doing

>>50901580
Do you have a link for that, damn you!?

anyone wanna yiff a ratman

>>50890070
Religion, birth rates, and insane technology.

>>50896607
Worldbuilding can have any number of objectives and if you think different your head is too far up your ass.

Worldbuilding can just exist to make your setting appeal to the reader/watcher/player. Some amount of internal consistency helps with that, but isn't the be all and end all.

video found of nefarious skaven plotting in action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_hwrBr0T00

>>50907653
sleepy rat unpredictable, never know what could be planning

File: 1481726925638.png (73KB, 1056x869px) Image search: [Google]

73KB, 1056x869px

>>50900260
Never. I swear that they have a pathological need to fuck up threads.

>>50900260
>>50907916
>muh pol boogieman

File: image.jpg (483KB, 780x1144px) Image search: [Google]

483KB, 780x1144px

Well real life rats when crammed, overpopulated and with food shortages. Behave like Skaven.

They turn murderers, rapist, angry, coward and paranoid.

All though I think it was a happy accident from the writers since the study was done way later than the skaven lore.

>>50890093
Also the Imperium, the faction just as likely to shell their own people as their enemies.

>>50909624
Well the Imperium is not actively trying to nuke its people. It happens but not like the Drows where they gods intervene a lot to prevent them from genociding themself to extinction.

Imperium destroy worlds to prevent the shit from spreading or to prevent the enemy from having them. Even then calling an exterminatus is a political suicided for anyone doing it.

>>50909611
the rat psychology talk makes me wonder if skaven would laugh if you tickled their belly...

>>50909826
Maybe. If the reason Skavens are so batshit insane is the same as the real world rats.

Maybe if you could end with lovely rats with super warp technology. Assuming you uncram, spread the population and have food for all.

>>50909611
Rats have been around for quite some time, anon. Surely people have seen this kind of behavior in rats before.

>>50890070
Only the high ranking can breed with the select harem, low ranks cant breed or they die. To attain rank you must be cunning and brutal. Its a very natural selective society. With a caste system for trash, warriors, crafters, priests and chieftain.

>>50907916

Wait, if I can't REEEEEEEEEE in /tg/ where the fuck can I?

:'''(

>>50909992
Funnily enough. Unless you put them in this situation rats are very friendly with each other.

In the naturally environment rats will often die way before the skaven like situation happens.

Skaven find a way to fuck themself into this clusterfuck.

Rats do not tend to go full human in their livings as in putting as much human possible in the smallest place possible. Things like the hive city of china that got demolish are not a thing rats will do.

But with Skavens having some what human intelligence the hive city situation might be more likely to happen.

>>50901573

...Not a really relevant concern/constraint in the timeframe we're talking about?

Unless you're saying that eventually we'll all die, the universe will dissipate out to something amitotically approaching empty and heat death will result which will imply the death of Skaven. This is true I guess, but that's not usually a factor in this sort of discussion?

>>50890210

Now let me tell you a thing.

In end of times, their fucking creator god appeared and said "time to get a grip, shitheads".

They all got together, got clan Pestilence (which is heavily disliked by every other skaven) into razing lustria, and the second all of pestilence main force was in lustria, THEY DROPPED A FUCKING MOON ON THEM. EVEN IF THEIR OWN GOD TOLD THEM NOT TO DO IT.

>>50907653

Our sleeper agent are finally reaching their targets!

The man-things are dommed-dommed!


WAIT, YOU GOT IT WRONG, STUPID-STUPID, YOU DON'T HAVE TO SLEEP-SLEEP!

THIS IS THE LAST FUCKING-FUCKING TIME WE GET DISCOUNT ASSASSINS FROM THE ESHIN CLAN

Anybody remember the name of that comic where post-apocalyptic London has been taken over by rats? It even had giant immobile breeder rats.

Had a very strong skaven feel.

>>50900130
>implying that Christianity is not simply a tool of domination

>>50910275

Maybe The Rats? It's a book though: http://www.idontevenownatelevision.com/2016/10/16/066-the-rats/

>>50910288
No this was definitely a comic, a guy travels through the rat infested city to find his wife and daughter.

>>50896148
Please do.

Comparing medieval and roman logistics is particularly interesting to me, and topic derailing is one of /tg/'s finest practices.

File: 1415886032640.jpg (165KB, 1291x533px) Image search: [Google]

165KB, 1291x533px

>>50910385
Reminds me of Caesars book about the Gallic war.

>>50900396
The foot messengers were a necessity. Their huge road system was built on mountains, and was as much stairs and rope bridges as normal roads.

They did know wheels, but people and lhamas were the only actual practical options for such conditions. Not even horses would solve that.

They might adopt wheels if they had made the leap insight of wheelbarrows like chinese did, but didn't happen.

>>50900531
South american here. It was. We are still finding out how much.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/01/searching-amazons-hidden-civilizations

>>50910425
Logistics is one of the finest points of roman sucess. Mind you, the term "corn" there is synonim for "grains" and "cereals", not actual mesoamerican staple crop. The one that survived, because they had a lot more.

>>50895346
Ugh. They'd be even more hated if they adopted the speech impediment.

>>50910532

This is also why "corned" beef is called that.

>>50890093
>Drow give them a run for their money
I don't know about 5e but there used to be 'rebel' Drow gods that were neutral or good aligned. They had really small cults but they existed.

>>50892636
>I like candy bars
You sick fuck.

>>50893033
>Tasmania was straight up genocide
>Wat
The colonists exterminated the aborigines of Tasmania. No quarter, just ethnic cleansing of people that were there before you. They wanted the land and there were already people living on it.

>>50890093
The 40k Dark Eldar industrialised cruelty as a commodity.

>>50890070
The Skaven was such a ludacris concept in WHFB that they were disregarded as myths by people who knew for a fact that world ending warriors of demon gods is a real threat.

>>50910582
I had no idea corned beef existed. We eat charque around here.

Of course, we also eat lots of things I believe americans don't. Corned beef is american, right?

>>50910949
Well the USA is a strange place. For example their bread is sweet. You have to look up local bakeries to find a non sweet bread.

In some states I can buy a fucking grenade, but can't rent a car unless I'm 21. USA is a very odd place. Nice people though

>>50892509
I myself appreciate rape monsters in fantasy settings. It adds another different kind of layer of danger onto the setting. I can see why this might offend in Brittain, though.

>>50910909
The Skaven also spend a ton of resources to keep themselves secret. Plus a fucking spell they weave periodically to keep the world forgetful.

Aside from the "Ratcatchers" there are extremely few people who think they're real.

>>50910364
You got any more details to help search for this? It sounds interesting.

>>50910949

It's anglophone, generally considered an Irish-American culturally significant food?

>>50896208
>Chaos was the least liked faction

wew, that's some pretty thick confirmation bias you have got going for you there.

>>50911179

And their small (but vicious) dogs!

Started reading a skaven novel.

Now that I think about it It is one of the most fleshed out fantasy races with its own aesthetics on par with tolkien races.

>>50892414
Horned rat had to do it too during a civil war.

>>50911346
It is like GW can actually make good shit. Sadly the GW that care is long gone.

>>50890438
They also die really fast as well.

Given how their leaders behave it wouldn't be any surprise that their slave society exists as a way to check growth.

>>50911413
Their Undead fluff was pretty great before the 7'th edition.

>>50890215
>ALL addicted to radioactive meth.
There's a GWAR faction?

>>50910949
>>50911259
Its big with Irish-American communities because corned-beef used to hold the place that Spam now occupies- a relatively cheap meat jam-packed with preservatives to keep it edible.

Times have changed, though. Now its treated like a pricey delicacy for special occasions...which is weird, because this "delicacy" is usually served with cabbage, potatoes, and carrots. Very simple food, with little to make it ornate

>>50899426
Drow max height is something like 5'7", so your drow's not particularly huge in the tall department.

>>50911413
it is not GW. It is some fanfiction from reddit.

I'm only at the first 10% and the writing is not stellar. So I don't feel liek recomending it to you yet.

>>50911621
Why do you this to me?

File: Skaven.jpg (102KB, 1280x905px) Image search: [Google]

102KB, 1280x905px

>>50911633
https://www.reddit.com/r/rational/comments/5k1kjs/rtffc_warpspawn_by_roysten_crow_a_warhammer/

Make your own choice.

>>50910099
Well yeah, Clan Pestilience is undeniably the biggest Clan of assholes. They were the one to start the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Skaven Civilwars, and were notorious for ruining everything by simply being near it. Clan Pestilence are shit head, plague high, traitors

>>50911495
Simple and hearty is rather novel in this day of either junk foods or elaborate health food dishes

>>50897900
Everything, at all times, must be realistic

Anyone buy the skaven team for bloodbowl? Was fairly pleased with the aesthetic but would've liked more chainmail facecoverings, those cages over the eyes and why are stormvermin just called blitzers now?

>>50900260
So you dislike /pol/ but if someone differs In political opinion you all cry boogeyman?

>>50911997
Not him, but I would prefer that /pol/ memes stay in /pol/. A lot of people don't go to /pol/ so they are not in on the joke and it can end up derailing threads.

>>50893927
This is a very stupid comment.

>>50890070

>Backstab each other at the slightest provocation

Works for humans.

>all addicted to radioactive meth

Everyone has an addiction.

>all cowards

So are people.

>rampant plagues

Yep they are nearly human.

>all sorts of inbreeding

You'd be surprised.

>egos

Yep. Pretty human.

>no long term harvesting

But they do. Smart ones have schemes in the works for years.

>die at the age of 20

Humans don't live that long without medicine. Skaven are pretty much humans at base level. It's just they are more open about it.

One of the things I really like about Warhammer is how dangerous magic is, Warpstone has always been interesting to me since its basically radioactive solid magic.

Do any other settings have such a thing?

>>50895778
How is men, elves and dwarves having nurturing sides a subjective opinion?

Now you're just repeating a word as a get out of jail free card

>>50912189
But one race is retarded rats that got magical mutation, the other is humans that actually accomplish worth while things

>>50912304
Tunnels all over the old world. Super warp science. DOOMWHEEL

For a backstabbing men rats they are the most competente faction of the old world. Maybe Lizardmen are better, but mostly due to dinos with Aztec/maya theme.

>>50912408
Rats are not better then humans, fuck you

>>50912742
Rats didn't make Age of Sigmar

File: ANGRY ABOUT CHINESE.jpg (882KB, 1425x4413px) Image search: [Google]

882KB, 1425x4413px

>>50890070

>>50912408
pretty sure the dwarf could've destroyed the skaven empire, were it not for the fucking scalies and their own distrust of technological progress

>>50893478
Ratification

>>50912775
Could have fooled me.

File: shoulder_shrug.jpg (175KB, 442x550px) Image search: [Google]

175KB, 442x550px

>>50890215
>Backstabs each other at the slightest provocation.
[Spoiler]Black people.[/spoiler]

>drug addicts
[Spoiler]Black people.[/spoiler]

>ALL of them are cowards, lazy and general assholes of the highest caliber.
[Spoiler]Black people.[/spoiler]

>Rampant AIDS.
[Spoiler]Black people.[/spoiler]

>Presumably all sorts of inbreeding going on.
[Spoiler]Black people.[/spoiler]

>ALL of them have egos the size of the universe.
[Spoiler]Black people.[/spoiler]

>Not a single attempt at long term harvesting.
[Spoiler]Black people.[/spoiler]

> They die at the age of 20 and are naturally stupid.
[Spoiler]Black people.[/spoiler]

>>50912803
Does anyone have that greentext with the guy telling college kids to never learn Mandarin, because then you'll have to deal with Chinese people, who are the worst people on earth?

Involved stuff like a guy with a broken skull being tossed out of a hospital because he didn't have enough cash, and Chinese companies just cheating everyone constantly.

>>50911647
hmm.

I thought you were talking about this piece of fanfiction, not the one you were actually referring to.

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8908623/1/The-Enfant-Terrible-of-the-Horned-Rat

>>50913871

Messed up your spoiler tags, bro.

Also, (You)

>>50914084
pretty long.

Is ti worth it?

File: 1463876695802.jpg (17KB, 225x240px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 225x240px

>>50915367
Did I?

>>50913871
kek, also this post is finally 3 post away from reaching bump limit and disappearing forever.

>>50915859
If you like long in universe about fantasy racism and the debate between nature vs nurture then you'll love it.

I need to give a special mention. to the portion of the story where the protagonist is recovering in a cottage and sees his reflection after being cleaned and the scene where he contemplates suicide after realizing that his life will expire in ten years.

It's great by fanfiction standards....but most things are. My only complant is that The humans are not nearly xenophobic enough.

>>50892798
The experiment you're talking about was known as Universe 25. The main concept drawn from it was that when rats were given an unlimited amount of space, and food, the structure of their society collapses. Pretty interesting stuff, but I'm not sure it applies to Skaven entirely. Skaven have a fuck huge population, but limited space and food. They also have a rigidly structured society, with the Council at the top, the grey seers below that, and so on.

>>50890070

310th post. Thread's hit the bump limit.

>>50890070

OP here.

Go to the new thread and continue where you left off.

>>50895555
>>50895597

Not having females themselves, and indeed not being sexual creatures, also makes them immune to the 'Orc Rape' and 'Half-Orc' tropes.

>>50900130

Aztecs were cunts, their neighbours all agreed and saw the Spanish as a far better option,

What happened to the Inca, however, was tragedy.

>>50910759
Those exist. In the FR, there's Eilistraee, she's pretty great.

>>50896000
This. Now it's all about teh moniez.