Star Wars The Roleplaying Game

>>50821200


ps: Pouty McBritish was awful. Her character was bad and she couldn't convey any emotion other than "slightly annoyed".

>>50821200
Personally, I like the FFG one the most. The quirky dice make all rolls two-dimensional, compared to the one-dimensional D&D approach. The main book for either Edge of the Empire or Age of Rebellion will get you started. Should hit the tone of a Rogue One style adventure easily.

>>50821359
I thought she wasn't that bad, at least compared to Ma-Rey Sue.

>>50821200

I'm honestly glad they all died at the end. The heroine was unbearable..

The only cool guys were Donnie Yen and the droid.

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>>50821200
FFG Star Wars or D6 Star Wars.

Keep away from the d20 star wars games, those suck major balls and don't feel "star-warsy" at all.
FFG would be my choice

>>50821200
Rogue One is literally an Age of the Rebellion adventure.

>>50821451
>The heroine was unbearable.
Why did you think this? I thought she was actually a decent character, with her own flaws.
Much better than Mary Rey Sue

>>50821471
What does d6 do that FFG does not?

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It was nice they finally included a gay character

FFG is great.

>>50821633
Krennic's gay?

>>50821422
>>50821471
>>50821633
FFG is so rules heavy though

>>50821713
His obsession with Galen is pretty homo

Am I wrong for being interested in playing a pro-CIS game? I always thought the universe treated it a bit unfairly.

>>50821519
>>50821422
Rey isn't a Mary Sue, wanna Know why? every fucking thing she did has a reasonable and plausible explanation within the story, Luke is arguably more of a mary sue than she is, and Anakin even more so than his son, but none of them are true mary sues, because everything all of them did is logically consistent within their narrative, go fuck yourselves, both of you

>>50821200
There's a Star Wars General; download Age of Rebellion's Beginner Game from the OP and use an online dice roller or download the dice roller app (or just buy the Beginner Game set) to get a basic understanding of how the game works.

>>50821529
Only real reason to choose WEG over FFG is because you want something with very simple rules to jump into. It's still a solid system, but FFG just gets the feel of the films down better.

>>50821716
It's really not that rules heavy. Using the Beginner Game, you can learn/teach everyone the most of the core mechanics as you play through a single session, with only another session or two for people to really start getting a hang of the symbols/what to spend them on.

>>50821716

You think so? I've been playing a campaign for several months now and the game feels really narrative to me. The skills system is pretty general even though there's a lot of them, so you can justify a lot of things through them if you're creative enough.

Combat doesn't even seem all that rules intensive compared to send or pathfinder, and it's by far the most rules intensive part of the game.

>>50821793
Ma-rey Suuuuue

>>50821793
> *triggered*
Luke and Anakin depend on other characters.
Rey does not.

>>50821839
Luke Skywalker Suuuuuuuuuue, see i can do it too. She's not a mary sue because everything she does within the story is explainable. All of her skills would be necessary for survival on jakku, piloting included. Her force-sensitive talents don't come out until some dumbass Solo decides to use the force on her and essentially show and tell her how to use it. Finally, the only reason he didn't murder her and Finn is because, um didn't Chewie hit him with, oh shit what was it again? Oh yeah, a Wookie Bowcaster Bolt, and unlike everyone else hit with it he survived and wasn't blown back like he probably should have been.
>>50821926
Rey Depends on her deuteragonist Finn, Han Solo, Chewie and a few random resistance fighters, as well as Leia. Lastly, consider that she grew up and survived completely alone, why would she depend on other people as heavily as Luke or Anakin?

>>50821200
Rogue One was a good movie, and definitely the best action movie in the Star Wars franchise, but unless OOOOH AAAAH PRETTY EXPLOSIONS AND LASERS is your only metric for how good a movie is it doesn't hold a candle to A New Hope or Empire Strikes Back overall.

>>50821793
>Rey isn't a Mary Sue

she survives by taking random junk parts.
- She can pilot a vehicle in 3rd dimensional flight and also do it against professional army pilots.
- She is 1st class technician who can bypass and reroute vehicle programs
- She can use the Force with no prior training
- She can beat a Sith in lightsaber duel. Even if he is an apprentice he clearly has more training.

Eat a dick anon. Force Awakens is a bad movie.

>>50822008

I hate Force Awakens and prequel trilogy and I liked Rogue One. There are some flaws but I was pleasantly surprised.

>>50822008
The first half an hour of Rogue One is complete garbage and looks like it was filmed by a student project.

>>50822062
>1
The force accounts for some of that preternatural ability, just like it did for Anakin, the rest comes from proximity to technology that any fucking idiot would make an effort to learn about especially if you're gonna tear it apart safely, also Crashed star destroyers, possibly with flight simulators for training exercises?
>2
She learned by doing literally the same shit Anakin Skywalker did growing up, he wasn't a mary sue.
>3
Throughout the legends continuity and even in the movies you don't need to be trained to use the force, you do to use it to your fullest potential.
>4
Ben was injured quite fucking severely by that point, and then stupidly reminded a clearly very high potential force sensitive that, hey you can use the force too! He was a fucking idiot and he deserved to lose that duel.

>>50822111
I strongly advise everyone to simply skip the first half of the movie. It's not worth it and it never will be.

>>50821451
The only thing I disliked was her taking the spotlight to make speeches about hope, that shouldve been cassians job.

Overall I thought she felt resonable and her scene with hologram father and guerra was pretty dope. But krennic really stile the movie for me, especially him being flustered with Tarkin.

>>50822062
>- She can pilot a vehicle in 3rd dimensional flight and also do it against professional army pilots.
She also crashes around while flying and basically survives thanks to plot armor, like every main character in a Star Wars.

>- She is 1st class technician who can bypass and reroute vehicle programs
She learned about ships by taking them apart for a living.

>- She can use the Force with no prior training
That's every Force user ever, though.

>- She can beat a Sith in lightsaber duel. Even if he is an apprentice he clearly has more training.
To be fair, Kylo Ren took a bowcaster shot to the gut only moments before his fight with Finn (where he toyed around with Finn until Finn got a lucky swing in) and Rey.

>>50822184
>Ben was injured quite fucking severely

Also, he's not a Sith.

ALSO, he's not even fully trained.

>>50822218
Nice, at least one other person is halfway reasonable on this board about star wars i'm
>>50822184
>>50821970
>>50821793

>>50822184
>he wasn't a mary sue.
Anakin was a major Mary Sue, though.

>little kid
>but he's a genius with robots
>and an ace pilot
>also a prophecy about how great he is
>gets a super hot chick despite zero chemistry
>youngest jedi master ever
>probably youngest jedi knight ever, too, considering it took kenobi like 30 years to get knighted

>>50822230
Those were not needed to make my point, but yes technically he's just a Dark Jedi, but soon will be a Sith, and yeah.

>>50822250
He's a Knight of Ren, not a Dark Jedi.

>>50822246
he never reached Master rank, and considering a Mary sue is this- A mary sue is someone jammed into a different person's story and explained by the writer as being the best.- Not Luke or Anakin Or Rey qualify.

>>50821724
CIS scum

>>50822270
He is a Dark Jedi, that distinction doesn't go away just because Snoke decides "i'm gonna call my force buddies Knights Of Ren", just pointing that out.

>>50822271
True, he was refused the title but he pretty much was a master since he was on the Jedi Council.

>>50822250>>50822270
>but soon will be a Sith

I mean, maybe. I don't know if Snoke is a Sith, but even if he is I'm pretty sure he's going to turn out to be a Sith in the same way that Luke is a Jedi: he's got the combat training but, because of his accelerated learning, is missing a lot of fine details on Sith culture and practices.

Like someone claiming to be a Celt because they've seen Braveheart and can showcase some vague Scottish/Irish ancestry. He's a Sithaboo, and Luke is a Jediboo.

>>50821793
Why are people so fucking upset when someone accuses rey of being a mary sue? Is she your waifu or something? Mary sue's always been a contentious term but now it's just ridiculous.

>>50822008
>>50822111
>implying Rogue One's main strength is not how much it shows us of the SW Universe
Did you skip the shot of the crowded market street?
Or the awesome holy Jedi temple town?

>>50822246
Nah, half the people in the story (notably most of the Jedi council, who are obviously only keeping him around because of the prophesy) treat him like the douche that he is, and the universe justly punishes him for being a colossal fuckup.

>>50822298
Nah, he's a Knight of Ren, not a Dark Jedi.

Same way Vader was a Sith, not a Dark Jedi.

>>50822321
But he was only on the Council because of Palpatine pulling strings and ordering that he be placed on the Council. And even that was not because of his abilities, but rather a part of Palpatine's plans to make Anakin hate the Council more since Sheev likely knew that he wouldn't be made a Master.

>>50821970
I don't see how she needs anyone (in the movie). Of course fighting for survival on a dessert planet would have imbued her with certain skills, _some_ technical aptitude (no Watto to train her) and basic melee/hand-to-hand not the least among them, but flying better than TIE fighter pilots (without prior training), shooting better than Stormtroopers (without prior training), besting Kylo on several occasions (without prior training), feeling no mistrust whatsoever of Fin/Han/Leia/anyone at all, when reservation would surely keep her out of the hands of slavers (moreover making fast friends with absolutely every non-evil being) and generally being the center of attention whenever she's on screen.
Just try to explain all of this away...

>>50822194
>taking the spotlight to make speeches about hope, that shouldve been cassians job
The greatest thing about that scene is that she made her speech, and she failed. They were like 'fuck naw, I ain't killing myself for some deluded twat'

>>50822322
Abrams has straight up said that the Sith are done and that these new guys are not Sith.

>>50822184

>1 proximity to technology, Crashed star destroyers, possibly with flight simulators for training exercises

Because you are really trying so hard I'll go with your logic on this one. If there was a crashed star destroyer with functioning power, people would inhabit it. Not loot it for scrap parts

>2-3 She learned by doing literally the same shit Anakin Skywalker did growing up, he wasn't a mary sue

Anakin had "spidey-sense" but it was so minuscule (and they said Anakin was walking "god" because of the potential he has. No one came near his level.). She literally learns stuff in 2-3 minutes tops. Anakin spent years in jedi order.

>>50822340
A Dark Jedi is someone who has received Jedi training but turned to the Dark Side, without becoming a part of some other order. Not every Dark Side user is a Dark Jedi.

A Sith is a specific order of Dark Side users. So are the Knights of Ren. On the flip side, the Jedi are a specific order of Force users. "Jedi" is not a generic term referring to any Force user.

>>50822337
Huh? The only one dickish to him on the Jedi Council is maybe Mace when he doesn't let him take the title of Master, which is really only Mace being a dick to Palpatine and saying "you might run everything but you don't run the Jedi."

>>50822062

Luke did every one of those things except win a saber duel against a superior opponent, and his only saber opponent was Vader. If he had a jobber who's entire character was based around not being as good as other villains and crying about that fact, Luke probably would have beat him too.

Anakin also did those first three things in Phantom, and he was 10.

Your entire argument for Rey being a Mary Sue is based on her winning a lightsaber fight, which is a really shit argument.

>>50822236
>Nice, at least one other person agrees with my opinions about star wars
FTFY

You're pathetic.

>>50822362
>She literally learns stuff in 2-3 minutes tops

Apart from mind trick (which is never stated in the series to be hard or easy) and fighting an injured, emotionally unstable boy, what did she learn in 2-3 minutes tops?

>>50822371
Nah, a Dark Jedi is a Jedi. Both Vader and Kylo Ren abandoned being Jedi. Therefore, they aren't Dark Jedi. They're a Sith and Knight of Ren respectively, as well as both being Ex-Jedi.

>>50822390
>apart from nuclear science, what did she learn in 2-3 minutes tops?

Threadly reminder that having an explanation for being a Mary Sue does not exclude your character from being a Mary Sue

>>50822321
If he was refused the title, he was never a master.
>>50822322
Maybe I'm waiting to find out.
>>50822329
I fucking hate Mary Sue talk in general, none of these fucking characters are Mary Sue's and i really wish people would stop misusing a valid literary criticism incorrectly because not only is it fucking annoying, it reeks of stupidity, and shows only a persons ability to feel inferior to a character with abilities greater than their own.

>>50822402
A scathing rebuttal, sir.

>>50822380
Ma-rey Suuuuue?

>>50822411
True, but 90% of the time someone accused of being a Mary Sue, isn't, by any reasonable definition of the term. Remembering that, I'm more inclined to presume innocence until guilt can be shown.

>>50822342
To be fair, the Jedi Council was flat out scared of Anakin and how good he was with the Force. With a few years of training, he was on par with or better than people who had been on the Jedi shit all their lives.

>>50822413
>and shows only a persons ability to feel inferior to a character with abilities greater than their own.
You really are reading way too much into it, why are you so incredibly defensive of characters you presumably had no part in creating or financial stakes in the success of? Why do you care so much if people think Rey's a mary sue?

>>50822389
Go fuck yourself, Anon, I'm just severely disappointed that people aren't nearly as smart or perceptive as I give them credit for.

>>50822413
>If he was refused the title, he was never a master.
Sort of? I agree that he never had the title, but that really was little more than a formality given that he sat on the Jedi Council.

It's like if some company said "we're not going to give you the title of CEO, but you're going to be paid like and have all the powers of a CEO." I mean, yeah, technically, you aren't a CEO, but really, you are.

>>50822426
Which nevertheless means he wasn't a Master.

A core component of being a Sue is that people just seem to inexplicably like you, but as we see Anakin has plenty of people who don't. His only real non-droid friend was Obi-wan and Padmé, and he was banging one of those two.

>Rey uses the Force in fear/anger to save Traitor McChicken
>Nobody ever gives a shit, no danger of falling to the dark side
>She suddenly goes all I CAN BATTLE MEDITATION NOW BOIega I AM CALM AF


I hope she falls to the dark side. She won't.

>>50822436
Different Anon here.

I care when people take a stance that can be demonstrated as being wrong. Doesn't matter the context, whether it's Holocaust denial, being wrong about the historical facts of Ancient Egypt, claiming that clam chowder should be made with tomatoes, or calling someone a Mary Sue when they're not.

>>50822423
>by any reasonable definition of the term
What is a reasonable definition though? I'd think any character that just doesn't face any real challenges and the whole story's just a kind of power fantasy for them (like Rey) would qualify but then some people claim it can only apply to fan fiction or something idiotic like that. There doesn't really seem to be any kind of agreed upon definition.

>>50822447
I'm severely disappointed at the fact that'd you'd actually make such a nauseatingly self-congratulatory waste of a post. What in the fuck is wrong with you?

>>50822436
Because she is not, it annoys the fuck out of me when people misuses terminology they don't actually understand well
>>50822469
Basically this
>>50822450
I know, i was just being pedantic.

>>50821200
>Rogue One
>literally the best of all of them
>I'M WITH HER:ed protagonist
>best

>>50822470
>What is a reasonable definition though?

I go by the original one, obviously adjusted for the fact that the term has expanded beyond Star Trek.

>Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.

>>50822246
And those are the shittiest movies in the franchise?

>>50822469
>comparing arguments over whether or not someones a mary sue to holocaust denial

There's no objective standard for what even is a mary sue, let alone what objective evidence for it would be. Who gets to decide what a mary sue is, who gets the final say?

>>50822478
>it annoys the fuck out of me when people misuses terminology they don't actually understand well
You're just gonna have to get used to it buddy, that's what people are like. No offense but you must be either really young or really autistic to not understand this.

>>50822470
Read the thread I put a very reasonable definition literally in this thread. Also, that was self deprecation not congratulation, I was noting that I am far too optimistic about other people's intelligence.

>>50822453
Which characters don't like Anakin?

Anakin's kid friends - all seemed to like him fairly well
Anakin's mom - obviously loved him
Jinn - loved him
Padme - loved him
Kenobi - "he was a good friend"
C3PO - "father"
R2 - they were pals
Yoda - mentor to him
Mace - indifferent
Palpatine - took him on as an apprentice
Watto - liked him as much as he'd like anyone he owned

I guess maybe Sebulba didn't like him?

>>50822492
>>Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to join the Resistance at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from lightsabre fighting to engineering, including force power usage and advanced piloting abilities. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Han, Leia, and Luke], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.

Yeah she's a mary sue.

>>50822413
>>50822478
> it reeks of stupidity, and shows only a persons ability to feel inferior to a character with abilities greater than their own.
Nice ad hominem, bro.

"A Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities. Often this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment."

- idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character
- a young or low-rank person
- saves the day through unrealistic abilities.
- character is wish-fulfillment.

Checks alls boxes, except maybe the last one.
> no mary sue here

>>50822493
That all depends on your point of view but no, that would be the Ewok movies and the Clone Wars movie.

>>50822246
That a character is extraordinary is by no means sufficient for him or her to be a Mary Sue. Someone always is, and why would a matinee adventure be about some random slob instead of the guy at the very end of the bell curve?

A Mary Sue is a self-insert in a story that's all about making the author feel good by proxy.

This of course isn't to say that Anakin's character was a good part of the prequels, merely that the problems lay elsewhere. Lucas wasn't making a self-insert wank fantasy (), he was merely shit at writing.

>>50822497
i'm 25, i know people are like that and it needs to stop, my generation and the one coming up (millenials right?), are going down the fucking tubes because people are choosing to avoid learning at any cost and nobody wants to call them out on them on this.
>>50822519
She is not idealized, she's an orphan abandoned to her fate on a world littered with imperial starship wrecks

She has no rank so you got that one

Her abilities as noted before are not unrealistic to have in that universe and specifically in her unique situation.

She isn't wish fulfillment for any of the writers or the director of the film and while a grat many people might wish to have her powers, they do do not wish to BE her.

>>50822480
>using buzzwords instead of actual criticism
top tier post, /pol/

>>50822497
If we're to be able to communicate then some degree of consensus, silent or outspoken, must be reached regarding what words and phrases mean. Everyone understands this, or you wouldn't bother typing instead of juastgp d8aAS<RFEwesgfr aw3 24r, but I guess it's much more fun to chug that postmodernist jenkem whenever someone has actually bothered to learn somethign you haven't.

>>50822507
Most of the Galaxy ended up being less than friendly towards him.

>He WAS a good friend.

>>50822519
>Checks alls boxes, except maybe the last one.
>- character is wish-fulfillment.

You're saying you're NOT SURE whether "SQUEE A GIRL JEDI AND SHE'S MUCH BETTER THAN ALL THE SMELLY BOOOOYSSS~" is wish fulfillment? Are you crazy?

>>50822467
>BOIega
>>>reddit

>>50822620
She only checks one box on his little list, as i've already pointed out here,>>50822572
, not three so definitively by his definition she is NOT a Mary Sue.

We're pretty horribly off-topic, and only a few people have really answered the OP, so I'll throw my hat in.

>West End Games Star Wars
One of the better Star Wars games out there with a ton of material, but pretty much all that material is pre-prequels (which is also good if you're into that) and you'd probably have a hard time finding takers.

>Star Wars d20
There's essentially two versions: original/revised and saga. Revised sticks the closest to 3.5E D&D, whereas Saga tries to be something different. Personally, I think Saga is the better edition of the two, but if you're a 3.5 fanboy, you'll probably like revised more.

>FFG Star Wars
Currently the most popular of the games and what I'd recommend to you. Grab a beginner game (if you want something like Rogue One, go with the Age of Rebellion beginner game) and give it a try. The biggest newbie hurdle to that game is the special dice but if you can overcome that, I think you'll enjoy it.

>>50822572
>She is not idealized, she's an orphan abandoned to her fate on a world littered with imperial starship wrecks
>slumdog millionaire does not present an idealized version of reality

>She has no rank so you got that one
She is young.
>Also, homeless people are not low ranking in civilian society.

>Her abilities as noted before are not unrealistic
I still contend they are.

>She isn't wish fulfillment [...]
Do you even read? I admitted that she might not be wish fulfillment on the authors part. Moreover this isn't even necessary: "_Often_ this character is recognized as an author insert or wish-fulfillment."

>>50822620
J.J. is many things, but a girl he is not.

>>50822617
>Most of the Galaxy ended up being less than friendly towards him.
They didn't hate Anakin. They hated Vader.

>>50822497
>Who gets to decide what a mary sue is, who gets the final say?

Me, obviously.

>>50822689
>They didn't hate Anakin.

I don't recall any Jedi singing his praises outside of Obi-wan and Qui-Gon.

>>50822467
Did you not see the rage on her face before the chasm pulled her and Ben Solo apart? she was in danger of falling maybe that wasn't clear to you, but it was to me, also that wasn't Battle Meditation that shit affects whole fleets, that was simply focusing and using the force as all force using lightsaber wielders do, she didn't have any training which is why all of her strikes were amateurish, but fuck did fuck did the force help her put the hurt on the severely injured Ben Solo.
>>50822685
You can contend her abilities are unrealistic all you want that doesn't make it true. I know you didn't say she was wish-fulfillment for J.J. that refutation was for other Anon's benefits because as you noticed others are saying she is.

>>50822721
Yoda and Mace both admit he's the most powerful Jedi and none of the other Jedis in the movies have all that many lines.

Also, them not "singing praises" wouldn't prove your wrongful assertion that they "hated" him.

>>50821422
>I thought she wasn't that bad, at least compared to Ma-Rey Sue.

She was basically Rey without the benefits of the force.

>>50822380
>Luke did every one of those things except win a saber duel against a superior opponent, and his only saber opponent was Vader. If he had a jobber who's entire character was based around not being as good as other villains and crying about that fact, Luke probably would have beat him too.

Also if Vader had been shot in the gut and slashed in his sword arm prior to the fight, Luke might have stood a bit more of a chance.

And even with that shit in her favor, Rey was running away up until she let the force take over.

>>50822685
>J.J. is many things, but a girl he is not.
>author insert OR wish-fulfillment
Rey is the latter, ie wish fulfillment for the audience, not an author insert. She's pandering as fuck, just not to JJ Abrams (although frankly, I wouldn't put it past him to want to be the little girl).

>>50821200
>this is what Star Wars is now
>an endless parade of shitty identical Mary Sue Disney princesses in hacky franchise vehicles, forever
I really wish Lucas hadn't sold it, this shit makes the prequels look great.

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Things Like foes in Ep 4

-complain about his chores
-get raped by a sand nigger
-decide to rescue a princess to get some poon
-sneak around a ship following someone else's lead
-get rescued from his own rescue
-watch his mentor die
-shoot down some TIEs who were being retarded on purpose
-nearly crash his x-wing and kill himself
-make a shot with the Force after a bunch of people die to give him the chance, Han saves him, and a ghost tells him what to do
-give his sister tongue

Things Rey does in Episode 7
-be the best scrapper on a planet whose entire culture is scrapping
-mountain climb a super star destroyer
-tool around in a hover bike she built from garbage
-beat up some toughs who try to bushwhack her effortlessly
-start the Falcon even though it hasn't flown in years
-out fight and out fly modern fighters in atmosphere in a wrecked ship effortlessly
-save some dude like 4 times
-resist a force adept's mind probe with no experience, counter-probe him
-mind trick a guy with no experience
-easily evade capture despite having no disguise or help for hours and everyone looking for her
-force pull a lightsaber with no prior experience
-win a lightsaber duel with no prior experienced against a force adept who leads a knightly order

Ma-rey Suuuuue?

>>50822507
Sand people hated him.

>>50821793
I liked TFA a lot and even I thought Rey was laying it on a bit thick with the Sue

>>50822847
So you wish or if not female, assume 18-25 yr old women wish to be an orphan, abandoned by your parents to no care at all by any adult of any sapient species, be chased and battered and broken by forces unknown to you previously, mind-raped by a cringy sith wannabe, than be nearly killed by that same wannabe after he has nearly killed your first true friend in the galaxy, the only awesome part is the force, and that doesn't balance out all that horrible above it.

>>50822792
I'm not the Anon who said that they hated Anakin. I am the one who said a core component of being a Sue is that people inexplicably like you, whereas Anakin seems to have plenty of people who don't like him: >>50822453

You can not like someone without actually hating them. You can also acknowledge the technical skill of someone without actually liking them or singing their praises. Anakin was, from an objective standpoint, the most powerful Jedi. That didn't make him the best, and in fact Yoda and Windu seem to pretty clearly believe that there's much more to being a Jedi and especially a Jedi Master than simply being strong in the Force.

>>50822765
So, you conceded the points of idealization and youth/low rank. If you continue to claim that her abilities are explained by her back story, riddle me this: When (in the movie) did she ever fire a pistol before?

>>50822808
She failed to rouse the rebel leaders. Never displayed skills she couldn't have. Characterization was okay.

>>50822847
>wouldn't put it past him to want to be the little girl
kekked

>>50822915
Oh, and fix the Falcon effortlessly, thinking well ahead of the real owner.

>>50822946
>She failed to rouse the rebel leaders. Never displayed skills she couldn't have. Characterization was okay.

Until they were inspired by her actions to do exactly what she wanted them to do to begin with.

>>50822937
She didn't have all that much time to be developed, Fuck Ankin had six movies of development even if people didn't like the early years, luke had three, she's only had one so far, she isn't a Mary Sue, she is cutting it fairly close but no, not a Sue, she has more movies to prove herself, at least in my book.

>>50822362
>Anakin had "spidey-sense" but it was so minuscule

So minucule? He was literally a pod racer. Something the movie states that no human has the reflexes to do. Not only was he a pod racer he was a pod racer who won in his very first race ever even AFTER sabotage by his opponent.

>>50822915
>be the best scrapper on a planet whose entire culture is scrapping

Is she? We see her turn in some scraps before meeting BB8, she doesn't seem to earn any more or less rations than anyone else.

>mountain climb a super star destroyer

Anyone can do that with practice. She'd been living there for a significant portion of her life.

>tool around in a hover bike she built from garbage

It's not shown whether the bike is good or bad in comparison to others.

>beat up some toughs who try to bushwhack her effortlessly

So?

>start the Falcon even though it hasn't flown in years

The Falcon is a special beast, and you know it. If anything is a Sue in this thread, it's her.

>out fight and out fly modern fighters in atmosphere in a wrecked ship effortlessly

It's not effortless, they bang into tons of shit, and also she had Finn giving her advice, including sticking low to the ground since it messes up their tracking.

>save some dude like 4 times

So?

>resist a force adept's mind probe with no experience, counter-probe him

Again: so? Anakin was the only human who was capable of podracing. The Force lets people who are strong in it do extraordinary things, even without training. This is canon fact.

>mind trick a guy with no experience

The Force has a strong influence on the weak-minded. And don't forget it took her three tries.

>easily evade capture despite having no disguise or help for hours and everyone looking for her

What's this "easily" stuff? We don't see how easy or hard it is.

>force pull a lightsaber with no prior experience

Right, that thing Luke did in V, what with Obi-wan being dead and thereby having no one to teach him.

>win a lightsaber duel with no prior experienced against a force adept who leads a knightly order

Who had just been shot in the stomach with a bowcaster, slashed in the arm with a lightsaber, killed his own father, was an emotional wreck, and had incomplete training.

>>50822987
>no human can do it
>except this little kid
>because midichlorians

>>50822620

Wait...so by that definition any female character who outdoes male characters in an area is a mary sue because it's wish fulfilment?

>>50822980
>her actions

By this, you of course mean the actions of Jyn, Cassian, Bodhi, Baze, Chirrut, K2-SO, and several dozen Rebel commandos.

>>50822946
No I refuted the idealization, she is not idealized at all, her life was fucking horrible and will probably be for the foreseeable future, youth and low rank was the same point, so yeah i conceded that one.

>>50822946
>When (in the movie) did she ever fire a pistol before?

She also fucked up and took time to actually work out how to fire it when she first tried. I mean, yeah, she killed a few stormtroopers once she did work out how to fire but 'Killed a few stormtroopers' isn't exactly a high star wars bar. It's sorta the minimum for being a protagonist.

>>50822915
>Things Like foes
Is this supposed to say "Luke does"?

I only ask because everything else in this post is 100% accurate so I'm confused how this could be wrong.

>>50823032
This is me. What this guy>>50823042 says is correct.

>>50822939
>whereas Anakin seems to have plenty of people who don't like him:
>>50822507

Characters who didn't like Anakin: Maul (kinda tried to kill him), Dooku, Grievous, and Sebulba. Those are all bad guys, though.

You can maybe stretch and say "well, Mace didn't like him because he was kind of indifferent towards him" but that's being generous, and Mace was nonetheless impressed by Anakin and willing to admit his power in more than one instance, which kind of defeats trying to use him as an argument for Anakin not being a Mary Sue.

>>50823097
Star Wars Clone Wars the cgi tv show show's plenty of characters that dislike Anakin, It is canon, and is a pretty fucking good show.

>>50822915

>win a lightsaber duel with no prior experienced against a force adept who leads a knightly order

The major thing is that 'Every single time that Ren had emotional control and focus, he was a monster'. At the start, he had focus and stopped a blaster bolt in mid air.

In the first match where they went against each other he made a single gesture and the battle was instantly over.

The interrogation failed because he angry and his focus was clearly shaking.

The final battle he had nothing resembling focus left and it cost him hard.

Kylo Ren is REALLY shitty at that whole 'Using rage as strength' thing and is better the more jedi-like he acts.

>>50823157

Mind you, that's also like 2 more movies and an entire TV show more than Rey has gotten so far.

>>50823050
Shitty touchscreen, but yes.

>>50822987
>his very first race ever
WATTO : ...but what would the boy ride? He smashed up my Pod in the last
race. It will take some time to fix it.
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Phantom-Menace.html
Nigga, please.

>>50823032
>her life was fucking horrible
And yet she is kind, caring, without a shred of mistrust...

>>50823042
>'Killed a few stormtroopers' isn't exactly a high star wars bar
This is true, but only for the original cast of Luke (killed Wombrats), Han and Chewie (smugglers) and Leia (foster parents involved in the Alliance from its inception). Wiser men like Obi-Wan cirumvented Stormtroopers, if possible. Ordinary Rebels get killed.

>>50822350
I like how nobody responds to this

>>50823157
It's pretty clear we're talking just about movies here.

>>50823215

And she was shown right near the start of the movie being someone who's quite regularly in fights there.

>>50822518
Damn, that's pretty harsh.
But also true.
Anakin was also a Mary Sue, but he also got served a triple serving of missing limb with a side dish of gone forearm by the end of his three movies and is obviously the bad guy, so I give it a pass.
Finn was hands down the best fucking character in Awakens.

>>50823026
>By this, you of course mean the actions of Jyn, Cassian, Bodhi, Baze, Chirrut, K2-SO, and several dozen Rebel commandos.

Who did it because of her speech.

If she hadn't made her speech, there would have been no final act.

>>50822519
>- idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character
>- a young or low-rank person
>- saves the day through unrealistic abilities.
>- character is wish-fulfillment.
That... describe pretty much half of fiction, save from the last one. In particular, all of "young adult" fiction.

>>50823232
Because there really isn't any comeback.

Rey isn't a Mary Sue, not because she doesn't act like one (she does) but because she isn't who she appears to be. She is one of those mysterious past characters and whatever happens in VIII you can bet your ass we will eventually learn that she had prior training that she is merely remembering.

Either that or stupid shit to explain away that she is so powerful.

>>50823195
yeah thats why this whole she's a Mary Sue thing is bullshit.
>>50823215
It's possible for someone to be like that and have a horrible life, look at Dave Pelzer for instance.
>>50823233
No, we're talking about Star Wars, th only reason movies has been brought up is because that's all Rey has so far 1 movie to all this other shit for both Luke and Annie.

>>50823246
> Who did it because of her speech.

Literally impossible. We Jyn immedaitely after she made her speech. Cassian has ALREADY gathered up the commandos. In his own words, "they were never going to listen." It had nothing to do with her speech; he had already decided to gather up a force to take to Scarif.

>>50822987

It wasn't his first race. It was the first won he ever won.

But yeah, as you pointed out, he did it even after his pod was sabotaged. A pod he built from complete scrap by himself. And the race happened to be the biggest race of the year.

It's like some 11 year child laborer who's an amateur racer who's never placed in a race winning the Indie 500 with a car he built himself after it suffered a malfunction.

>>50823282
This. Her speech is shit but it's redeemed by the fact that the council actually tells her to fuck off.

All that happens afterwards is mostly because of Cassian's arc.

>>50823274
>No, we're talking about Star Wars
No, we've been talking about the movies, and your post was pretty much the first post in this thread to even mention stuff outside the movies (and even then, only in the vaguest of terms, without any real clear examples given).

To clarify this, I am saying the Anakin of the movies is a Mary Sue.

>>50823289

Yeah, I fucked up on it being his first race.

For some reason I recalled them getting pissed off about him lying about being an experienced racer.

>>50823282
As an addendum, none of those commandos were there to hear Jyn's speech. Nor were Baze, Chirrut, or K2-SO. The only other main character in the Rebel council room when Jyn gave her speech was Bodhi.

>ITT: ELMINSTER ISN'T A MARY SUE

>>50823232
The only reason I didn't is because he and I are using the same points albeit at different times, and because i agreed with his assessment.
i'm this guy>>50823274

>>50823304
Anakin says that he's the only human who can podrace and generally builds up his skill and implies he's the best around, or at least very good. Later, Padmé is shocked when he admits that not only has he never actually won a race, but in fact he's never even FINISHED one. Which, properly speaking, he never actually said that he had.

So what he said was true...from a certain point of view.

>>50823303
Anakin isn't a Mary Sue because he's the chosen one. However powerful he may be this has been prophetised and is actually the main drive of the plot.
Not to mention how he fails at the end. And needs a whole trilogy to finally be redeemed.

Hopefully from now on, Rey will be more grounded though.

>>50823303
That was me talking about the no longer canon EU/Legends, and no he isn't he isn't self insert for Lucas, that was Luke.

>>50822808
But that's the thing, Rey's normal development and character arc was fine, they just rushed the force development a little too fast.

>>50821359
The character wasn't badly written, but the actress didn't quite emote enough in some scenes.

>>50823337

Right, that's it. He never said he finished one.

Sorry about the fuckup there. Been a while since I willingly watched those movies.

>>50823342
The whole prophecy thing isn't a defense against him being a Mary Sue because it actually makes him more of a Mary Sue. It makes him super special, the most super special, more super special than any other character, without ever "earning it." That's Mary Sue crap.

>>50823232
Thank you, it was my privilege.

>>50823236
Melee/hand-to-hand. Sure. No blaster in sight.

>>50823264
>That... describe pretty much half of fiction, save from the last one. In particular, all of "young adult" fiction.
Sadly, it does. :(

>>50823274
>It's possible for someone to be like that and have a horrible life
I never denied that possibility, but you and others have been wont to attribute every positive quality about her as a result of her upbringing. Yet she doesn't bear scars. Neither physiological nor psychological. So hard could that childhood have been?

>>50823358
SO WHAT? she's 19 years old and she didn't display anything but visions in the force until Kylo opened her up to the force, and pissed her off so her emotion (which are very powerful motivators and focuses for the force) driven force usage is excusable.

>>50823375
Is Jesus a Mary Sue? Is Superman? Is Elric?

Some characters are innately powerful, that doesn't make them Mary Sue. The point is that it has to make sense in the story.
Rey's abilities wouldn't be a problem if they didn't breach my suspension of disbelief.

>>50823370
I actually really like Episode I. It feels like a Saturday morning cartoon, but then, that's what it's supposed to feel like. It takes place during what is overall a good time for the Republic and the Galaxy as a whole.

It's comfy.

>>50823242
He also wasn't...really liked by anyone. Dude acted like a school-shooter in training, starting in movie 2.

>>50823232
It's cause a lot of people like star wars because of either nostalgia or cause everyone likes it.
The first three movies are good, the second one being really good, but the series gets WAY more praise than it deserves.

BEING THE MAIN CHARACTER IN A MOVIE DOES NOT MAKE YOU A FUCKING MARY SUE. IT MAKES YOU THE MAIN CHARACTER.

>>50823386
Did you see her naked? Cuz I didn't, also they have bacta, which completely heals wounds? no visible scars, doesn't mean they aren't there. Please try to remember basic human psychology that in stressful situations psychological scars are rarely evident, and the whole movie was one for her.

>>50823386
>Melee/hand-to-hand. Sure. No blaster in sight.

Yes and she fucks up getting her blaster working when she needs to use it. She needs to duck down and work out how to turn the safety off before she can use it.

>>50823407
>Is Jesus a Mary Sue?
Yes sir.

>Is Superman?
Hard question to answer because there's so many stories and so many authors. To a certain degree, in general, yes.

>Is Elric?
Who?

>Some characters are innately powerful
All good until your character is innately better than every other character, despite those other characters spending their lives to being good at whatever their thing is. Anakin starts out with more midichlorians than fucking Yoda. That's Mary Sue crap.

>>50823386
>Melee/hand-to-hand. Sure. No blaster in sight.
This is another stupid thing about Rey. Do you have ANY IDEA how hard a teenage girl gets taken down in a fight with a man? There's a reason every girl outside the western world is either sheltered as fuck or totally cowed or both. And that's human men, let alone some gigantic alien rhino-man or some shit.

>>50823396
I said it was a little rushed, I didn't mind it too much especially if they have a good reason for it in later movies.

>>50823430
That's a little trickier when that movie takes place in a multi-writer multi-director universe. Neither of them were all that bad at all.
>>50823215
>Luke (killed Wombrats),
Now that's a scary monster idea.

>>50823447
Oh, and

>that scene where the trained, experienced, adult pilots who probably spent all their lives training to be a pilot are struggling in the fight against the doughnut ship
>meanwhile kid anakin "tries spinning (that's a good trick)" and effortlessly blows up the doughnut ship

Mary. Sue.

>>50823447
I'm sorry, but you just don't understand what a Mary Sue is.

It's supposed to denounce bad writing, not power creep.

Anyhow your point is moot: Anni has flaws.

>>50823433
>Jakku
>hellhole where you have to trade a day's labor for one portion of food
>however, little girls can score a bacta tank with ease
You need to stop smoking those death sticks, Anon.

>>50823449

That's less a 'Star Wars' thing and more a 'Fiction' thing. It's not like Star Wars ever really had stuff like that.

>>50823447
i think he means Edward Elric and Jesus is the Ur example of a Mary Sue.
>>50823449
he was not taking care of her at best she was his employee at worst his slave.
>>50823460
Oh I thought you were the anon I was arguing with, sorry my good man. i was the one who said So What? in all caps
>>50823487
I didn't say it did, but those crashed Star Destoyers definitely did. maybe she got lucky one day found some still useful bacta and healed her visible scars and wounds.

>>50823480
You're using the exact language and arguments Mary Sue writers use when defending their Mary Sues.

Which isn't a surprise because you're defending Anakin, a big ol' Mary Sue.

>>50823407
>Jesus
He asks God to spare him the pain. Rages at the merchants in the temple. Consorts with whores and rough guys. Maybe, maybe not...

>Superman
Never read much DC, but sure seems like one.

>>50823433
>bacta
On Jakku? For free?
>>50823433
>in stressful situations psychological scars are rarely evident
[citation needed]
As far as I know PTSD can be triggered very easily.


>>50823440
>work out how to turn the safety off before she can use it
What a klutz.

>>50823449
While I agree on the bigger point with you, Rey wasn't sheltered.

>>50823449
Sure.

Now, a young woman who has been trained to fight - which everyone fucking ignores, I note, because she uses that staff like an expert - who is fighting against a badly wounded, exhausted, and mentally fucked up man whose faith in himself and his own power is actually not working properly?

~I~ could have beaten that fucking weak ass man-child.

>>50823407
>Elric
Elric isn't a Mary Sue, but shitloads of goths sure reimagine him that way to jack off to anyway.

Canonically though he's a congenitally weak shithead who first uses drugs extensively to stay on his feet, then uses a sword that consumes people's souls while they yell about how horrible it feels, and everything he does ruins people's lives, including the ones he loves.

He's definitely a giant edgelord for edgewankers, just not a Mary Sue.

>Jesus
Jesus is LITERALLY GOD and one of his followers still ended up hating him. And it makes a more credible story to boot.

>>50823522
It's possible if unlikely, she found some in the med-bay of a SD, as for the PTSD, she shows no symptoms of that as of yet but not all scars of a mental nature are PTSD.

>>50823539
>Jesus is LITERALLY GOD and one of his followers still ended up hating him
Man, we're on 4chan. It should be obvious that people can hate anything.

>>50823539
That's the job of the Eterna Champion is all his incarnations - correct the balances between Law and Chaos, which means he does not get to be happy, rested, or have anything go right for him, ever, because if things go well for him he's failing at his job.

>>50823539
>"If even one character doesn't like the Mary Sue, they're not a Mary Sue"
But Anon, that's wrong.

>>50823492
>That's less a 'Star Wars' thing and more a 'Fiction' thing.
Modern pop fiction, and yes, it's a severe flaw in a great deal of pop fiction. I wish everyone would stop doing it, but that doesn't make it any less retarded when Star Wars does it-- especially since Leia spent a lot of time hiding behind pillars and firing a gun and/or getting cowed by gigantic aliens.

>>50823522
>While I agree on the bigger point with you, Rey wasn't sheltered.
Agreed, but that just means she ought to have been pretty subjugated in an environment as harsh as that.
Like, suppose she had been implicitly a harem slave but with spirit, who saw her chance and escaped the planet when the getting was good? Anyone could enjoy a story like that, and it wouldn't be retarded. AND it would've been more in line with the established setting of the original trilogy, which is actually pretty gritty.

>>50823530
>a young woman who has been trained to fight
BY WHOM?
>fighting against a badly wounded, exhausted yada yada
I'm not even talking about the fight with Kylo Ren, I'm talking about the scrap on Jakku. Where she gets ambushed by several large men and still wins? In the same movie series where an experienced bounty hunter shoots a guy under the table just because he doesn't like the odds in a fair fight.

>>50823601
My point exactly, which means it's *a touch implausible* that everyone loves Rey.

>>50823636
Which is the best SW RPG in your opinion, Anon?

>>50823636
>BY WHOM?
My gut says Obi-Wan.

Although maybe I extrapolate too much from a vision that says
>Rey
>These are your first steps

>>50823649
>everyone loves Rey
Kylo Ren didn't love her.

>>50823649
>everyone loves Rey
All the people at the place she worked seemed to hate her ass. Portions tries to get her ass kicked and has no problem finding some dudes willing to kick her ass.

>>50823636
By the fucking big huge elephant person she was left with, you moron.

Or did you not realize that Unkasr Pluttwas the person she was left with? If he wants to get her out of his hair, he trains her to fight so that the people who left her with him can't say he neglected his duty, then kicks her out when she can hold her own against a junk trader or two. It's not a fucking plot hole, you stupid smarmy self righteous asshole.

>>50823671
just you wait

>>50823655
Pre-Saga d20 with optional -4 STR rule

>>50823671
>implying
If he's not fucking her by IX i'm eating my hat.

Last round of comments from me.

>>50823551
>she found some in the med-bay of a SD
Which she then would have operated all on her own. Which I'm certain she also could have done, you know, like everything else.

On a side note: I thought she was some kind of bottom feeder. Only scavenging scraps that other scavengers deemed not worth it.

>in stressful situations psychological scars are rarely evident
PTSD was an example. Still requesting that sauce, though.

>>50823636
>subjugated
Why is she standing in the thick of battle? Hasn't she learned to keep her head down?

>>50823739
Yeah... That will happen, whether anybody wants that or not.

>>50823752
Why do you say that?

>>50823719
>anon points out that women are weaker than men
>you stupid smarmy self righteous asshole
Yes, this is a rational and balanced reaction, and not at all butthurt. Yes.

>>50823739
>>50823758
tragically accurate

they'll probably forget all about the genocide and murder he committed and all that shit as well

>>50823779
I know shge's weaker. But he was injured, fucked in the head, and exhausted.

I'm calling him a stupid smarmy self righteous asshole because it's obvious that if you want to get rid of some orphan kid without getting yourself strung up by potential bounty hunters, you teach her to fight and kick her out of the goddamn house, because you can't sell her into slavery, rent her as a whore, or kill her yourself without reprisal but you CAN teach her to fight and say "she left on her own with skills enough to survive, not my problem that she wanted out".

>>50823779
Ad hominem much?

>>50823670
>>50823636
Both of you are under the stuoid and very wrong opinion that to know how to fight you must be trained, she most likely learned by experience and necessity, and I'd also like to point out we don't know who the 'men' attacking her over BB-8 were or if they were men or an alien equivalent at all.
>>50823649
A touch implausible but that's not out of the ordinary by protagonist standards.
>>50823601
Judas loved Jesus, he just had to betray him because, I don't know, he wanted that cash maybe, or did Jesus tell him to do it Because god said he had to?
>>50823759
There are bacta injectors that do not require full immersion and are for combat use, well established in the lore,how fucking stupid can you be to assume that I meant a Bacta tank like Luke was in after Bespin.

And find that fucking sauce yourself it was in a book, about psychology that I don't happen to have on hand.

>>50823816
I'm not sure your butt can handle containing this large amounts of hurt for any significant length of time, relax or you might blow something out.

>>50822925
In the new Vader comics they end up worshipping him as a dark god.

>>50823396

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLKar19XhA

>From YOUR point of view, Rey isn't a Mary Sue.

>>50823832
>very wrong opinion that to know how to fight you must be trained
Most people can't fight for shit without training. You'd know that if you did any martial arts in between your shitposting.

An untrained fighter has pretty much no chance against a trained one in hand to hand combat, even more so with weapons involved.

And yes that also include guns. People can't shoot for shit without training.

>>50823876
This pleases the man.

>>50822111
So a bit like ANH then?

>>50823876
I mean, it's not like he doesn't fit the profile to a T.

>>50821793
While what you're saying is specious, she'd be a shit character regardless.

>>50822185
This is just retarded. And it comes from someone that considers R1 "meh".

>>50823850
Stupidity of that level makes me angry. "Who taught her how to fight?" Any number of people. Who taught Luke how to fly a T-50 and bullseye wamp rats? Who taught Han Solo how to smuggle? Who taught Lando Calrisian to run a mining operation?

It's a stupid complaint about an utter nonissue.

>>50823892
Blasters are different than projectile weapons - no recoil=point and shoot.

>>50823816
>>50823779
when the force is involved physical strength means very little.
>>50823719
this is certainly plausible, but not the only way to learn how to fight.
>>50823886
No from an objective point of view that I happen to agree with. How? because unlike you I grew up first with The OT, then with the prequels and all sorts of other books and movies and video games. I learned how to watch or play or read something and view it without prejudice or expectation. Life is much more enjoyable and so is fiction, if you don't put bullshit where it doesn't belong.
>>50823892
That might be true, but as laid out in this thread she is a hero and heroes are not and never have "most people", also, until Kylo Ren she didn't fight any clearly trained foes in melee combat, she fought a couple roguish characters, who didn't seem very well trained.
>>50823928
No it's not, and she's not even close to a 'shit character", you're just still pissed lucas sold you childhood memories away for 4 billion USD$.

>>50824018
Blasters have recoil you moron. They are plasma bolt projectors.

>>50823921
>>50823906
They burn a Sand-dude in a huge Vader wicker-man.

>>50824053
That's fucking hardcore.

>>50824035
Really? Show me where they recoil in any of the scenes of any star wars movie ever?

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>>50824053
>mfw
Yes... Yes... I can feel your anger

>>50824066
They have about the recoil of a blank for the blank-firing props and a small hand movement for the non blank firing ones (Used to indicate to the aftereffects team when each person is shooting) the minor recoil of an AEG airsoft gun is also about right, it's what they used for Rogue One.

>>50824066
Do you even know what Tibanna gas is for you pleb?

>>50824096
Not the anon you were talking to but

Not much recoil at all them, enough that a person who's never a touched blaster could reasonably fire an accurate shot at I think only one Stormtrooper

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>>50824057
Well Anon...

>>50823514
>Edward Elric
Less of a sue than Rey honestly.
Constantly gets shit on, gets his ass beat a couple times, a clueless idiot most of the time.
Pretty damn sue-ish despite all that, but less then what we've seen from Rey

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>>50824138
The whole run was kind of like that.

It had some issues but frankly, I liked Star Wars Saga Edition quite a lot. The rules were pretty simple and it was easy to run. I think it conveyed the Star Wars feel quite well too.

The newer FFG one has a core-book about twice the size and gimmicky dice.

>>50821970
the fact we have to actually prove that she isn't a mary sue kinda mean she is one, though
it's like telling my overpowered assassin is not op/gary stu because he was trained by the assassin god or things like that

>>50823185
>A sith that is shitty when he gets angry gets beaten by an angry (soon to be) jedi

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

>>50823409
>Dude acted like a school-shooter in training

Post YFW you realized the Star Wars prequels are Columbine IN SPACE

>>50824167
No it doesn't, because according to /tg/ any main character is a mary-sue. Harry Dresden - who gets thoroughly fooled, lied to, wrecked, injured, and actually fails to get shit done multiple times is a mary-sue according to /tg/.

So 'proving her not a mary-sue' is not a standard for proving she is a mary-sue, because /tg/ is unable to understand what the term means anymore.

>>50824167
>the fact we have to actually prove that she isn't a mary sue kinda mean she is one, though
>The fact that we have to prove that you didn't murder him kinda means you did though

That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard.

>>50824019
Nope she's a shit character portrayed by an absolutely hate able actress.

>>50823530
If you could why couldn't Finn?

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>>50824138
>>50824151
always these pics never what happens next.

>>50824149
>>50824167
No she isn't a Mary Sue because that sue shit about Rey only started when some grognard still pissed about Lucas selling the IP saw the film and didn't like that there was a female possibly Non-Skywalker Protagonist, who was fairly competent despite numerous disadvantages, it's happened before in fiction that heroes survive and win despite the odds she did no more than that.

>>50824201
Because Finn is provably incompetent.

He was a TRASH COMPACTOR OPERATOR.

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>>50823273
I really hope it's the "she was being trained by Luke then everyone got Ren'd so Luke hid her on Jakku to save her life and she's remembering some of the training she got" route.
It's about the only way I see it actually making sense.

>hey here's my character she is a scavenger, knows how to fly spaceships, agile, can fight anyone, can use the force without training, is charming as fuck, has a great destiny ahead of her
>b-but she's not a mary sue because she ate shit for lunch for twenty years!


>Rey beat Kylo because he was incomptent!!!11!
>Kylo killed the rest of the Jedi apprentices by himself

>>50824220
As incompetent as one of us arguing over this movie? I mean he still had combat training which is more than most of us.

>>50824200
Lay the fuck off the actress shit, she's new to the game, i'm sure she'll get better and the consensus is that she's still miles better than Hayden, who, unfortunately, had some flaws in the script that fucked him over because he's actually a pretty damn good actor. Her character is a fairly normal hero type, thus it's not shit just not out of the ordinary, at least, not yet.

>>50824220
Okay different Anon now but you've found my trigger.

Finn was a soldier, a stromtrooper not fucking janitor. Low ranking military personnel are given sanitation jobs bucause putting janitors on military bases is unethical and a security risk.

Stop calling Finn a janitor.

>>50821724

I don't think you're wrong. Granted I know next to nothing about the Clone Wars cartoon.

I feel like the businesses and companies who made the CIS were just Evil Corporation tropes with Sith slapped on them. They could've had more legitimate reasons for fighting the Republic, but again I don't know enough background.

I always wondered what would happen if Count Dooku was privy to Sidious's plans for him, and killed him. All thanks to the CIS campaign end cutscene in SW Battlefront 2.

>>50824277
>Rey beat Kylo because he was incomptent!!!11!
Yes this is everyone's main argument, not his emotional wreckage or the fucking hole in his abdomen.

>>50824199
what i mean is that there isn't smoke without a fire, seeing how much people arg about it, there has to be something wrong. that or we are just stupid
>>50824219
>>50824199
well, i think it's not just rey the problem. Overall the bad guys were really underwhelming, which makes the good guys not really struggling to get shit done.

>>50824321
I had an alternate setting idea in mind where Palpatine is the same person... except not Force-sensitive, so he's just a very clever, manipulative guy trying to take over the galaxy. But he doesn't succeed in turning Dooku into a Sith, so Dooku doesn't run the CIS in a manner totally evil. And then things progress from there.

>>50824277
he was injured severly, and unstable in the force from having killed Han, she barely won, and just got lucky and didn't get injured. By the way there is absolutely NOTHING in any of the lore that says force-sensitives can't use the force without training, in fact it's mentioned many time that they can it's just not easy to control and can make you more prone to the Dark Side.

>>50824324
>I'll beat this guy who was trained in melee combat as an stormtrooper
>Here comes Marey Sue
>Oops, better get angsty and wounded as fuck

Not like the Force can help you or anything

>>50824334
>Oh no I'm not actually retarded I just said in wrong!

>>50821471
What, in your opinion, makes a game feel "Star Warsy"?

>>50824354
>unstable in the force from having killed Han
apparently anger and fear do not power the Dark Side anymore

>she barely won, and just got lucky and didn't get injured
>barely won
Kylo Ren got his ass served, bruh
>got lucky
Like this is not a Mary Sue trait

>it's just not easy to control and can make you more prone to the Dark Side
Neither of these apply to Rey

>>50824324

Neither was a problem when he was beating Finn. And they weren't a problem until Rey "activated" her Jedi powers by "meditating".

>>50824231
and he erased her memory through force shenanigans. that would explain a lot (her fighting abilities, her force abilities, her affinity for piloting, etc), make sense, and avoid the cringe to see her just be some skywalker daughter.
good twist anon

>>50824356
>>50824354
doesnt matter whether she was a sue or not, she was a shit character, in so far that she had no god damn agency in anything. In nearly every scene shes in, she is just there. You learn absolutely fucking nothing about her as a person, what she wants, what she likes, what she thinks, nothing. She just does stuff when required and has maybe two actual bouts of emotion. This might be fine if she was some secondary character, but it is absolutely awful when she is the god damn FEMALE LEAD, she has to carry the next 2 movies at least. I cant see how this is going to work since I know more about every other damn character than I do about her. Hell I even know more about Poe than her even though he wasnt in half the god damn movie.

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>>50824413

SHE WAS FUCKING 7 or 8 WHEN SHE WAS LITERALLY LEFT ALONE TO LIVE ON SOME DESERT PLANET.

Do you really think Luke would teach little kids how to fight with lighstabers and how to mind control each other?

>>50824334
Dude I'm 50824219 and i've been saying Ben Solo was unstable and injured the whole fucking time, his only moment of idiocy/incompetence was using the force on a person he could tell was force sensitive risking deepening her connection to the force, after Snoke told to bring her to him and that risk fucked him right in the ass.
>>50824401
Both of them do, before she was separated from him by seismic disturbances there was a moment where she clearly was struggling with her rage, and he wasn't feeling just anger and fear, he was feeling loss and grief which lead to fear and anger but are not.

The new Fantasy Flight games are fun. The dice pools are huge, but the dice aren't super complex so.

>first game with some friends, Age of Rebellion
>group has to get this bounty hunter for the rebellion cus he has info on the Imperials
>find him in a village square
>toss my pistol at him
>he runs through the crowd and my party starts chasing him
>reach shipyard. He's trying to escape in his ship
>manage to deck him in the face, then tie him up
>hijack his ship
>Have 1 rank in piloting and navigation, pilot anyway
>end up mashing hyperdrive
>party flips
>dm flips
>one guy OOC points out the planet would probably be KO
>end up crashing on some forest moon near an imperial base
Had a lot of fun.

>>50824451
No daisy Ridley performance was more nuanced than that, just because she didn't tell you what she liked and what she thinks doesn't mean you can't or didn't learn anything about her and comparing her to Poe (whose actor is World-Class), is bullshit frankly.

>>50824356
Are you a Dragonball Z fan? I don't ask to insult you or anything I'm just curious because I feel people think in powerlevels where you beat someone or you don't a lot and not in the wiggle room that exist in real swordsmanship.

I say that because there's not real reason that Finn couldn't have won if he got a little luckier. He got a hit it and had that hit been a little better that would have ended the fight. He got close so we don't have to further justify that.

We've never really had a proper cross-examination of FO Stormtrooper CQC training matched up with Rey's admittedly short lifetime of quarterstaff experience. Let's say it's slightly worse for this exact situation for argument's sake.

Kylo go's into the Rey fight sight from his victory over Finn, so he's been wounded again he's likely lost more blood from the hole in his abdomen or is a least getting more pain form pushing his left leg. He's then has her on the run till he rather foolishly tries the turn and inadvertently reminds her "Oh yeah! The force!" which is with her.

What's so unreasonable about coming out on top in this situation?

>>50824219
She's not fairly competent. She is very competent, with no real justification (yet).
She's not a full blown Mary Sue but people can certainly see her as one.

>>50824516
This. Fucking this. Thumbs up Anon.

>>50824501
i can and frankly will, because she is the god damn lead of the movie, her performance has to carry 3 fucking movies. I dont think it was her acting really, I think it was how the character was written, she doesnt really emote or respond to anything shes just there for most of the movie. If this were some character study of a PTSD orphan kid in a warzone her character might make sense, but this is a space fantasy for little kids, you cant have NUANCED.

>>50824551
At least we're dumping J.J. for the rest.

>>50824534
No she has some justification for all her skills save the force people just aren't willing to look past their Rose-colored glasses and fucking realize she's not a sue, and most likely won't be, this is Disney for fucks and considering what they've done with Marvel, I think they deserve a fucking shot, a real fucking now that they've proven they can make at least one star wars movie without alienating any of the fan base but the most grognard of grognards. >>50824551
You're right you can and i'll still call it bullshit. She's been in ONE movie so far Wait til the third is over and, remember she's not the only protagonist, Finn is arguably just just as important. Also that bullshit you're spouting about nuance not being allowed in kids fiction (nevermind that it was PG-13 here in the US) it fucking is because almost every kids movie I've ever watched has nuance in the performances that helps keep most adults interested.

>>50824463
No, at that age it'd probably be more of the basic sensing the world through the force and such, feeling the flow of the force in general.

>>50824516
>Are you a Dragonball Z fan? I don't ask to insult you or anything I'm just curious because I feel people think in powerlevels where you beat someone or you don't a lot and not in the wiggle room that exist in real swordsmanship.
I've never ever watched DBZ, but let's not pretend that Star Wars does not have "power levels". Keep in mind this is an universe where fear and anger literally makes you stronger if you use the dark side of the force

Swap out Kylo for Darth Vader. How would you feel if the scene played out the same way?

Kylo absolutely dominated Finn. He does not show any sign of fighting any worse because of his injuries (he does show he's hurt, but it doesn't actually affect him much!) And yet Rey suddenly grab her saber, and she's basically his equal (Yes, she goes "aah" a lot; still, look at her movements. She's not actually losing, just being a whiny cunt). And then she suddenly goes "Oh, the Force!" and she hands him his own ass in a silver plate. She got shoved way up in the air and knocked against a tree, does that not count?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV6sjwqCQ2M

I rewatched the scene, and honestly every time I look at it, it becomes more blatant that she's way too good with the lightsaber.

>>50824647
it wasnt a poorly written non character that has no agency during almost all of the movie and simply seems to just move from scene to scene with little to no purpose or real interaction, it was just nuanced.

Really dude, it was a bad character, you learn nothing about her, we get nothing, not even a scene were she attempts to struggle with being left on a planet to fend for herself and how she feels about that, nothing, the character was poorly written, like most of that phoned in movie.

Also wait for 2 more movies before i judge, what is this /v/, you just have to play for 20 hours before it gets good. Why do I have to sit through 4-6 more hours of film before Im allowed to determine that the first 2 i saw were poorly written, with a bland noncharacter female lead, and horribly recycled plot points. You need to hook people in in the first part of of a story, not the middle.

>>50824194
>who gets thoroughly fooled, lied to, wrecked, injured, and actually fails to get shit done multiple times is a mary-sue according to /tg/
And half the time when he DOES get shit done it's a Pyrrhic victory.

Fuck, kind of literally on more than a few occasions.

>>50824659
Which is how she was able to get so much out of the natural holocron that was Anakin Skywalker's lightsaber, mirroring how Ben was consumed by the natural holocron that was Darth Vader's helmet.

>>50824647
>considering what they've done with Marvel
I don't particularly like any of their Marvel movies, anon. Most of them are fine but they're not great.
Please note that I'm not a fan of the whole American superhero genre.

>>50824779
>Also wait for 2 more movies before i judge, what is this /v/, you just have to play for 20 hours before it gets good. Why do I have to sit through 4-6 more hours of film before Im allowed to determine that the first 2 i saw were poorly written, with a bland noncharacter female lead, and horribly recycled plot points. You need to hook people in in the first part of of a story, not the middle.

This. TFA relied waaaay too much on being a part of the Star Wars franchise, in the sense that it was basically episode VII: A New Hope, when they should have focused a movie that would have been great on its own, even if it was not part of Star Wars (like Rogue One).

>>50824716
>Kylo goes from OP rekking motherfuckers to fumbling indecisive swordsman in 15 seconds
Yeah, I'm firmly in the "Kylo's writing was awful" camp, they should have had the planet split between them seperating them, then Kylo would have fought her, we'd have seen her hold her own for half a minute, which is an achievement and shows she has an affinity for combat etc, and then something obstructs the fight, rather than a "Hey look our female protagonist beat a guy who can stop blasters with the fucking force how progressive and cool are we? XD" I mean, it could've been a display of "this character is not to be messed with" from both Kylo Ren and Rey.

>>50822480
Ok I am confused what is this "I'm with her" shit about, I guess I've been under a rock or something

>>50824999
/pol/ thought the movie would be SJW propaganda and they are still salty that it wasn't trips man.

>Remove Rey
>Turn Poe into a girl, female ace pilot and greasemonkey who doesn't take shit (basically Jan Ors but canon)
>Have Poe's appear in place of Rey
>Focus more on Finn, don't have him killing Stormtroopers literally 5 screen minutes after watching his friend Stormtrooper die
>Finn is the Force Sensitive instead of Rey/Poe
>get a 50% better movie


BONUS: Predictions for the future
>Luke doesn't want to train Rey at first
>Luke then trains Rey, but she's too 'impulsive'
>Luke is Rey's dad
>Rey 'almost' turns to the Dark side when fighting Kylo but then Finn grabs her by the shoulders and all is fine
>Kylo will be turned to the Light side by Rey
>Kylo+Rey+Finn fight Snoke

>>50825027
What? Why would you be upset at a film for not being what you hated?

Also I still don't know what "I'm with her" means because it's been references a few places and I still don't get it

>>50824779
I ask that you wait two more movies because you waited three for Luke and 6 for Vader and Obi-wan as well as the Clone Wars tv series, I agree it relied too much on the star wars name, but whose fault is that THE FANS.
>>50824854
And I do like superhero movies, you are not beholden to my opinion on the Marvel movies, i'm adressing the bullshit treatment of protagonists in general on /tg/ and in this specific case the bullshit people say about Rey who has had only one movie to prove herself whereas the other protagonists of Stars Wars have had 3 or more movies to do so. It's bullshit she's a so far a decent, but not record-breaking or paradigm-shifting, protagonist and character who has at least two more movies to prove she's up to snuff.
>>50824939
I never argued there weren't things that could have been better written, it's just I don't like bullshit hating when you know full fucking well all these Rey haters are gonna watch and read and play every fucking Star Wars property that comes out from now until the end of their lives.

Finn is the most useless character (Jar Jar not withstanding) in all of Star Wars. Prove me wrong.

>>50825059
One of the writers for Rogue One made some salty anti-trump posts on twitter. So people worried that it would be some kind or Prequels-like hamfisted political commentary.

But this was long after his part in the movie was done and even the re-shoots were wrapping up/had been wrapped up.

>>50825065
>I never argued there weren't things that could have been better written, it's just I don't like bullshit hating when you know full fucking well all these Rey haters are gonna watch and read and play every fucking Star Wars property that comes out from now until the end of their lives.

>Disliking a characters means you aren't allowed to like or even watch a film

>>50822507
I don't think the Tuskens were huge fans, apparently they knew something everybody else missed.

>>50825083
Oh so I'm with her is some sort of pro Hillary slogan? And that seems a bit much to worry about, and I still don't understand why you would be upset at your fears not being vindicated

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>>50825065
>whose fault is that THE FANS.

>>50825065
>only one movie to prove herself
She's better than one movie Anakin but worse than one movie Luke.
Not good by any means.

>>50821451
Base or whomever was cool. The Admiral too.

>>50825071
Based on only one movie? I'll throw 3PO's name in the ring. He's a half step above JarJar walking-punchline only because he narrates whatever R2 is doing. The most useful thing he did was help with the Ewoks, and Leia and Chewie would have figured that out eventually.

>>50822184
>the rest comes from proximity to technology that any fucking idiot would make an effort to learn about especially if you're gonna tear it apart safely, also Crashed star destroyers, possibly with flight simulators for training exercises?

That's fucking BLATANT bullshit. There's no indication that she access to any of that, especially seeing that she barely made a living as a scavenger.

>>50821519
What flaws? I genuinely want to know. I can't remember a single character trait of Jin other than "generic hyper-competent plucky tomboy" and that she was supposed to be close to her dad, even though it's never shown on camera [spoilers]except when he dies, which has no emotional impact as we barely knew him and Jin's actor cannot into human emotions[/spoilers]. As a big Star Wars fan this movie felt downright exploitative.

>LOOK AT THIS IT'S R2 AND C3PO YOU LIKE THEM RIGHT? OH LOOK AT-AT! CLAP, ENJOY THE NOSTALGIA

I thought all of the main characters were just fucking boring. This is the first time in a theater I've felt like I wanted to fall asleep, and I've been to early morning premiers after 18 hour shifts.

>>50823832
>that rage
Driving home I thought to myself what a nice and civil discussion this had been...

>bacta injectors
Sure, she might have found one or even two of these. Enough to cover half a lifetime worth abuse, accidents, storms and beast attacks? Don't forget about the sand. It gets everywhere.

>well established in the lore
Legends is not canon anymore.

>it was in a book, about psychology
Thank you for elaborating. </snark>

>>50823215
>Sympathetic Sue has an unusually Dark and Troubled Past to the excess, but other subtypes often have them too, just to emphasize how brave and special she is to live through it.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CommonMarySueTraits

>>50822111
It was more like a Mass Effect movie.

>>50825194
She's childish as fuck and doesn't know what she wants; she's all like "fuck the rebellion", but then her dad dies and now she wants to help. Cassius even calls her out on this.

She thought she was making this badass speech, but the council decided against her proposal.

The character would have worked just as well if it had been a guy (it's not a SJW-pandering thing). Also she didn't show super everything skills like Rey did.

I mean, it's not like she was an award-winning character, but she's decent. She kind of reminds me of a mix between Luke and Han Solo.

>never shown on camera
Did you miss the flashback with his dad hugging her? I mean, that's not much, but how much of that kind of shit can you shove into two hours without boring the audience?

>>50825085
In my opinion if you don't like the characters maybe you should stop fucking watching them, but I honestly don't care whether you do or not, that's up to you, I never fucking argued that, you do you, just don't shit on a character or actress or actor because you happen to dislike how they/their character were written.
>>50825143
Tell me that all the safe choices in TFA were not a result of every fucking loudmouth grognard on the internet bitching about how Disney better not do this or do that, and J.J. Abrams better not fuck this up. Tell me honestly that that's not why.
>>50825167
Anakin had 6 movies #4 aka Phantom Menace being the supposed worst.
>>50825193
No it's not she's crawling around in the wreckage of a Star Destroyer possibly a Super one, if it's impossible for her to come across a terminal with information about how all of it works, let me know because while certainly an unlikely event it's possible, and she was a scavenger for anywhere from 10 to 12 years, so not unlikely.
>>50825250
>1
It's still civil, just slightly hostile
>2
She might have found more than that, and maybe she's just lucky or you know has the force on her side.
>3
Lore in the movies implies it how else would they find force sensitives?
>4
It's been a long time, sorry.
also her back story is not dark in the excess and that part of the tvtropes archive warns you that a lot of that is incredibly subjective.

>>50822415
Pretty much is. You cannot discount 2 major examples and give no reason for it.

>>50821713
He had the strongest I've-got-a-boner face when he got force choked by Vader

>>50825335 samefagging here, but her Wookiepedia page has quite a lot of sourced information, fleshing her character and how she gained her skills out, in a way they couldn't in a two-hour film, i have no doubt they'll get better at showing who she is in the next two movies.

>>50825335
>just don't shit on a character or actress or actor because you happen to dislike how they/their character were written.
>criticism isn't allowed

>Tell me that all the safe choices in TFA were not a result of every fucking loudmouth grognard on the internet bitching about how Disney better not do this or do that, and J.J. Abrams better not fuck this up
>implying anyone put a gun to JJ Abrams' head
>implying anyone asked precisely for what was in TFA
>implying Disney can't do whatever the fuck they think is right with their movie to produce more $$$
>implying anyone gives a shit about a handful of grognards, a vocal minority on the internet

>No it's not she's crawling around in the wreckage of a Star Destroyer possibly a Super one, if it's impossible for her to come across a terminal with information about how all of it works, let me know because while certainly an unlikely event it's possible, and she was a scavenger for anywhere from 10 to 12 years, so not unlikely.
>we'll resort to making up headcanon to explain the movie and everything will be alright!

Please shut the fuck up, you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about

>>50825335
>Anakin had 6 movies
of Anakin being the protagonist?

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>ITT faggots who can't tell the differences between actual Mary Sues and exceptional individuals who are the main characters specifically because they are exceptional

The hallway scene was fucking perfect in every way.

>>50821723
It's Bromo, they used to be friends

The biggest problem isn't so much that Rey is too competent (though that is a problem when the original trilogy was about Luke's growth and the first two movies emphasized how out of his depth he was), but that she's the result of that awful "mystery box" philosophy (aka "this doesn't make sense and is only there to look cool, we'll just think of an explanation later").

>>50825335
>Tell me that all the safe choices in TFA were not a result of every fucking loudmouth grognard on the internet bitching about how Disney better not do this or do that, and J.J. Abrams better not fuck this up. Tell me honestly that that's not why.
Expectations over Star Wars orthodoxy certainly didn't help, but Disney, especially modern Disney, and Abrams are safety incarnate.

>>50822330
I especially LOVED that scene, that Jedha temple town scene. That was the first time I really felt like that was a world/setting I would like to be part of.

>>50825484
What are you referring to? Are you talking about
>>50822330 ?

>>50825457

Rey is a shit Character. Just admit it and be done with it.

>>50824516
>>50824716

Say what you will about reys skills but lets get one thing here. Leia never met rey in the movie and han solo just died. Leia hugs rey out of all people instead of chewie. Then the resistance, after spending THE ENTIRE MOVIE LOOKING FOR LUKE SKYWALKER proceed to line up and wave as some random orphan girl(rey) fly away with the map, lukes saber, in a dead war generals ship. Alone, in what was an unknown part of space. After losing thousands if not billions of lives to get said map.

Rey isnt just a mary sue be ause she has a ton of abilities, its because she has that while having reality warp itself to smack the user in the face and repeated tell us how special or better she is than other characters.

>>50825065
>you waited longer for other characters.

No, that's stupid. Those characters were either good or bad in those individual movies, if you want to wait 5 years and take it on an average that's another, dumber argument.

>>50825457
No-one is complaining because Rey is exceptional, people are complaining because she's badly written. Compare Rey with Luke. Luke is shown to have active interest in piloting, is mentioned to be a good marksman, and has tutoring from a jedi master, however briefly. These explain most everything he manages to do in New Hope.

Rey just DOES those things, with nothing to establish why she can. We're just expected to take it at face value that OF COURSE she can fight and pilot and use force.

>>50825335
>It's still civil, just slightly hostile
Civic in the sense of mannerly or civilised. Calling someone names is hardly polite.

>She might have found more than that
I doubt it. You said it yourself: unlikely. Especially considering that wreck has been lying there for 20-30 years and no one is competing for it. Must be stripped bare.

>Lore in the movies implies it how else would they find force sensitives?
Sorry, I don't get any of that. The movies imply the existence bacta injectors? Bacta is used to find force sensitives?

>It's been a long time, sorry.
Apologies accepted. This would have been of interest to me. My ex was bipolar, with a rough childhood, her depression phases kicked in mostly in stressful situations.

>>50825457
>No point worth disccussing
>Insults only
>Final Destination

>>50825324
Ten minutes at the start of the movie of her mom and dad teaching her some shit around the farm is all that they would have needed to make the relationship endearing.

>>50824463
well your picture show yoda doing just that
not for the mind control thing though

>>50825167
I disagree.
Luke in 4 is more a archetype than an actual character: he's a lower class dude who learn he has a DESTINY, refuse it for half a second before realising he has no choice and embrace it without any further question.
He's kinda bland, really, but it's a classical figure so it still work.

Rey is a lowest class girl that stumble into what she think is a hero and get the idea the adventure of her life will be to help said hero for a day. She then learn she has a DESTINY, but she couldn't accept she could be more than a scavenger and nope the fuck out. But it's too late and she's drag into it until she finally accept to her DESTINY.
It's kind of the same figure, but less archetypal.

All in all, I find Rey more believable than Luke. Luke is basically:
> "You're a hero, Luke."
> "But I've stuff to do home..."
> "Actually, you don't have a home anymore."
> "Ok then."

While Rey:
> "I'm so happy to have done my humble part saving this rebel!"
> "Actually, you're a hero, Rey."
> Does not compute...
> ... until the circumstances and sacrifices of others force her to take up the challenge.

>>50825446
More 3 protagonist and three antagonist/ deuteragonist he's the only reason the empire fell after all because an empire without an emporer is what?
>>50825440
Most of that shit wasn't criticism, or at least not constructive criticism, I'm fine with criticism if it has a legit point.
You don't have to care about grognards to see they had a real effect on the film and disney's decisions, and they're vocal but what about the rest of us? Our voices are either not heard or overwhelmed in the massive amount of shit the grognards post.
Go to this link http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rey it should clear up a lot of the shit you're bitching about.
>>50825526
Disney isn't always safe, but all i heard before TFA came out about star wars all over the internet was shit, people bitching about things that may not have happened and didn't and some about them discarding the Legends universe as canon, but not discarding ideas from it
>>50825558
They're both force sensitives, and Leia, we know she loves Chewie so we don't need to see them hug, she was showing sympathy for Rey, because she know what it feels like to be captured and tortured, and the stress of trying and succeeding in escaping
>>50825572
Yeah but Rey wasn't bad she's simply in the middle of Little Annie and Luke, so far.
>>50825536
Vader's Awesome as fuck rebel murder scene in R1.
>>50825558
She is not a Mary Sue.

>>50824464
i was speaking of the villain as a whole.
ben was an angsty teenager, you got captain ginger-nazi, the main villain seemed straight out of the cartoon due to how shitty the 3D was, the stormtrooper officer was just kinda there, and got threw into the fucking garbage as some kind of tex avery villain, etc
but i think the fight would have been better with him winning. it would have been more dramatic, without actually changing anything to the end

>>50825634
To be fair, his aunt and uncle were Luke's sole reason to stay on Tatooine and other than that he was chomping at the bit to leave.

>>50825634
> "You're a hero, Luke."
> "But I've stuff to do home..."
But he wanted to get away from and explicitly join the empire

>>50825634
The Empire is everywhere in ANH and ruling with a iron fist, it makes sense that there comes a point where Luke can't hide anymore and that he realizes that they're too evil for him to stay neutral.

Plus a farmboy who dreams of greater things but held back by family duty is a more realistic character than what is essentially an in-universe fangirl. The latter is way too meta, and Star Wars is a franchise that doesn't mesh well with too much self-awareness.

>>50825708
I'm not saying it's wrong, just archetypal.
Maybe a bit convenient.

>>50825558
As >>50824516 I can totally except that, past the duel in the forest the ending of TFA is the weakest part. Quite a few things happen that aren't explained very well in relation to some characters doing things and others not. Also my God the last shot of the film fells like everyone got far too enamoured with that lovely Irish island and forgot how to film.

It lingers for an uncomfortable length of time and it's the only helicopter shot in Star Wars history and feels so out of place.

My grip with lot's of criticism of the film comes from people attacking the plausibility of event, already a questionable thing to do to an adventure film and so many feel forced.

I think the demands people place for substantial evidence are too high and that much can be inferred from the environment without us ever needing a character to say "Yes I have done this thing many times."

I feel people have become almost hostile to competent protagonists seeing them though the lens of scrutiny they would normally apply to their players.

>>50825617
>1
I apologize for the name calling but i'm fairly sure i called their idea stupid and not them specifically.
>2
Lack of scars, only means one of a few things, she's very good at her job, she's lucky, or she had plenty of help, or little bits of all three.
>3
That was about your legends not being canon anymore comment, it's not but not all of the ideas came from there, and i can't find my original post at the moment will get back to you.
>4 my aunt has PTSD Acute Mood Disorder(think Bipolar but worse like 5 "poles" as opposed to 2), and various issues arising from repeated sexual abuse, so I've picked up a lot from her, her doctors, my family, and on my own way too much to pinpoint a source from memory
>>50825666
Oh well, Stormtroopers are just basically incompetent anyway, why would their leaders save BBEG Snoke be any different?

>>50825775
And I feel you're grasping at straws to defend bad writing because you are more lenient with it than some people here are.

>>50825801
>Stormtroopers are just basically incompetent anyway
Tell you what, we'll lock you in a room with a main character and see how you do.

>>50825802
Not that guy, but maybe you're all a little too uptight about it, it's a new beginning and they did well, not as well as they could have but still.

>>50825825
Given that I've got the good sense not to mess with a main character, I think I'll do just fine.

>>50825825
I'd get along well with any of them, I think, but, no thanks I try to avoid physically interacting with fictional characters, wouldn't it fuck up causality?

>>50825834
>not as well as they could have
Exactly.

>>50821451
>I'm honestly glad they all died at the end.
I'm glad because I was 90% sure that the female protagonist was going to end up being Rey's mother and/or Luke's wife if she lived. I liked the fact that it wasn't a movie centered on the Skywalkers and Friends makes it feel like the galaxy is an actual place that doesn't revolve around ten or so people.

>>50825825
maybe because one of the main character is actually one ?
the first scene was good because of that. It shows the stormtrooper/new order actually be competent and scary.
And then they dropped it. like it has already been said, fin doesn't even flinch when is called a traitor or kill is former comrade.

>>50825865
Yeah but all fiction could have been done better in hindsight, so I don't know why you think saying exactly was some kind of win, all my points still stand.
>>50825886
Well yeah but he's the rarity and they don't show his thoughts in the movie because that'd be impossible but the canon novelization does address it.

>>50825743
>an in-universe fangirl
It's not about that, it's about the passive attitude most people take when a conflict start around them. They have their own issues and are trying to stay afloat, but they usually don't put their life upside down to save the world. It's not just fear, it's also the too reasonable assumption they can't make a difference. And it doesn't matter how shitty their life is, when you have little, you don't throw it away.

Rey is in that situation: she admires those who risk their life to do what's right, like Finn as she thought, but she simply cannot fathom she can be a part of it. So when Finn appear, she think she can do her part by helping him for a day and that will be more than she ever expected to be, but when she asked to join it's just dizzying, to big for the lowly scavenger she is.

I found it very realistic actually.

>>50825871
>Rey's mother and/or Luke's wife if she lived
holy shit, this would have made me so irate
> it feel like the galaxy is an actual place that doesn't revolve around ten or so people
this is why Rogue One is the best SW movie

>>50825886
>fin doesn't even flinch when is called a traitor or kill is former comrade.
One of the three main flaws with TFA imho. The other two being the Starkiller base and Rey.

>nobody has mentioned yet that the black guy in R1 killed himself for literally no reason
bakaronio desurino fampai

>>50825948
Enough with the Rey is a Sue shit, I've refuted literally everyone's points all throughout the thread, her character is good, she was well acted, the issue was the writing, which i'm sure will improve.
>>50825975
Which one?

>>50825975
What black guy?

>>50825886
I had no doubt they were going to die from the beginning.
The only moment that made me consider a survivor was the dying scene of blindbro, for a second I thought they may do something more with gunbro now that he believe in the force.

>>50825948
>holy shit, this would have made me so irate
I was thinking that she was from Jakku so it made me think.
>Oh fuck Jakku, Rey's from Jakku, she's about Luke's age. This is going to to be really fucking retarded.
I wouldn't call it the best Star Wars, I would say Empire Strikes Back is the best.

>>50825975
AH! The one flaw I was starting to believe I was the only one to noticed. The sad part is that I can easily imagine several reasons why he would chose to die, but we're just not given one.

>>50825994
>>50825996
>>50825999
I'm talking about Jyn's adoptive dad with the breath mask.

>>50826050
oh, he had had enough of the fight and chose to let the fate of the galaxy ride on the younger generation?

>>50826020
>I wouldn't call it the best Star Wars, I would say Empire Strikes Back is the best.
Well, preferences may differ, but it is objectively one of the best (ESB would be my contender for the first place too)

>>50825194
What is she hyper-competent at? She's a decent commando because she was raised by commando/terrorists, but she doesn't fly the ships or do anything particularly technical. Ultimately she's just a tool for the Alliance to get what they need, and they don't care about her personal tragedy and growth into caring about the fate of her Father and the consequences of the Empire. Her story does give context to the rest of the cast's decision to take up Rebellion, the commander trying to justify his life of revenge, the not-Jedi monks following "The Force" and tagging along, and the pilot who's mostly a victim of circumstance not given time to make his own choice.

It was a pretty good way to show that there's a whole galaxy of bad stuff going on that happens to people not-named Skywalker.

>>50826020
>she was from Jakku
But she isn't? Jyn have absolutely no relation to Jakku.

>>50826050
Yep, Gerrera. I guess he realised he had become a paranoid freak.

>>50825801
>called their idea stupid and not them specifically
>how fucking stupid can you be to assume
Yeah, I see where that confusion might have come from. ;)

>2
It's called the School of Hard Knocks for a reason. I think you're arguing too much in the nitty-gritty and don't see the bigger picture. You can explain only so many instances of exceptional talent as this or that. When would it be enough for you to consider it a trend?
You clearly admit that she is exceptionally talented at many things.

>you: Lore in the movies implies it how else would they find force sensitives?
I've never heard of a connection of bacta and force sensitives. Then again Legends canon was sometimes very isolated to the medium or outright contracticted other canon. *shrug*

>4
As I said more of personal interest than anything else.

>>50825994
>I've denied literally everyone's points
ftfy
try me >>50822350

>>50826168
the first two posts you linked were me, dude.
Please, link the post where I called someone stupid because you might have confused me with someone else,
>2
yes I have admitted that she is exceptional but she is not out of the realm of heroes not by a fucking long shot, none of this makes her a Mary Sue, it simply makes her a Protagonist exceptional with the potential to be Legendary, that's all.
>3
That lore thing i was talking about had nothing to do with a link between bacta and the force, other than that bacta comes from a living thing I think. I know of no other such links. It had to do with force-sensitives being able to use the force without training just less powerful and harder to do, sorry but you misunderstood.
>denied everybodys points
i'll reply directly to that post in a moment.

>>50825536
No, Vader's scene.

The thing is that movie has a fuckload of flaws in it. Vader's first appearance was so freaking kitschy. Yes, iconic but gawd. And yet, the hallway scene was truly horrific. And actually was extremely true to the character. The slow juggernaut of death. Perfect.

And it was pretty much how the whole movie went. It was an excellent unapologetic space opera.

>>50822350
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rey read this it clears up a fair amount of the things you posted, and with Canon sources. She never displayed better skill with a blaster than a stormtrooper, she killed one possibly two, out of sheer luck, because she had the element of surpise. She had no reason to mistrust Any of them because they did not give her reason to do so, Han Leia and Chewie are all Living Legends, why would you mistrust them? she is the primary protagonist that is to be expected but it's not true more than 70% of the time. There are no slavers on Jakku, It's in republic space, slavery is outlawed under republic I believe.

>>50822350
>Of course fighting for survival on a dessert planet would have imbued her with certain skills, _some_ technical aptitude (no Watto to train her)
She mentions being recruited to help Phlut customize the Falcon. She's done more than just scavenging before she ran off.

>>50823007
>she bounces off some stuff and her idiot friend tells her to fly low.

If you climb into an old jet/helicopter and not only figure out how to operate it but manage to fly it under a bridge/through a tunnel, at speed while being shot at, just because some guy is screaming for his life in the backseat, never mind the janky off-set cockpit...

If the heroes need to succeed at something new against trained professionals, you need to give then advantages. Rey knowing the "terrain" is close, but she's still flying an unreliable old brick through a needle's eye against fighter pilots. At least give the audience a reaction shot where the fighter jocks aren't taking her seriously and fuck up when they get lazy.

>>50826447
NEVER call the Falcon unreliable you cunt!