Villain Motivation: Help

the thing is that power is a means to an end. You can have a villain whose goal is to gain power but there's still the question of why they want power

>>50801631

That picture annoys me so much.

The motivation only matters in so far as what do you want the plot to be. Any villain can be interesting as long as you do them right.

>>50801631
People have an overwhelming need to rationalise their actions, whether good or evil. The single most important thing to remember is this: nobody thinks they're the bad guy. Your villain needs some core driving motivator to what they are doing, and it needs to be one that they are willing to make any rationalisation needed to achieve.

Unless you're going for something completely hammy. Then just do whatever the hell you want.

>>50801631
So there are a couple types of villains, and you need to decide early on what direction they are going in.

First off, you need to decide if your villain has a rational reason for what they are doing. Even in real life, some evil people just want to amass power and cause pain because it feels good and power lets them dodge the consequences of their actions. They may be egomaniacs or sociopaths or just broken as people in some way, but their actions dont really need to make sense beyond the fact that their nature is to do evil. They dont justify their actions because in their mind, they are the only "real" people and the rest of the world should only serve to amuse them. They tend to rage and froth when things dont go their way because they physically cant comprehend why their actions dont have the outcomes they expect

cont..

>>50801631
Be like skeletor, evil and knows it, evil for evils sake

but dont be stupid, he plans his evil carefully to maximize evil dealt, and minimize interference from good

the seeming illogical nature makes it impossible to reason or barter with him, and makes it difficult to predict his actions

IMO a villain needs three things:
>A goal;
>Means to achieve said goal;
>A reason to believe they're the good guy.

Avoid saying "power" for the first point - power is not the end game. If it's power to achieve immortality, fine. Dominion over people for the sake of being in control, also fine. Simple, but fine. But "power" on its own is far too abstract for the heroes to combat.

The second point is pretty easy - usually wealth or magical ability does the trick. The challenge is the third point, but it's the most important. No "bad guy" in history has ever thought of the self as that, they always believe they're doing the right thing. Not necessarily the right thing for everyone, mind - being selfish is still a justification, but remember they won't think of the self as selfish. They should think "I deserve it".

>>50801982
The other type is the kind that tries to justify their actions in some way. These are the villains who set out on ye old road paved with good intentions. Maybe they had a cause they pledged their life for, or they wanted to change the world, or they wanted revenge for an injustice, or they really thing they are doing the right thing. But somewhere along the way they made a bad mistake, and instead of accepting that mistake and trying to atone or correct their actions, they doubled down on their decision. In their mind, they were not the one that was crazy, the world was. Or perhaps they simply didn't see an alternative that was any better. Or sometimes, they just did what they thought was necessary to survive.

Regardless of the cause, the more these villains refuse to see their mistakes, the worse things get. Because they are working from bad information, more mistakes happen, more wrong paths are taken, and more justifications for their actions pop up. Until one day the villain looks around and realizes that he has become what he fought / is the evil overlord now/ all his dreams have come to naught, etc. How they react to this depends on the character. Some seek to repent, others just accept what they have become, some keep justifying because riding the tiger is better than being in its teeth.

>>50801723
to compensate insecurity
they like being on the top
shit like that

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>>50801929
There are some exceptions to this, but the only ones that really work are "Force of Nature" type villains.

>>50802046
that was such a good villain, they were prevalent through the whole show but only ever did ONE thing

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>>50801631
What about this guy?

his only goal was to make sure there was never peace

>>50802105
Actually to be correct, his goal was "lolsorandumb" in the sense that he did what he liked with no consequences, and not even in the smartest way. just because it was fun

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>>50802079
Well, it's because Walpurgisnacht and the other witches" were those "force of nature" villains I was talking about. They operated off animalistic intelligence and instinct, meaning they wern't something that could be reasoned with, they didn't need an explanation for what they were doing beyond simple predation, and, in a strange way, that actually made them alot scarier than something with a big master plan or understandable end-goal.

>>50801631
That "elder god tier" thing, why is that so popular? I keep seeing praise for villains written that way, but honestly the appeal is lost on me.

>>50802486
It was popularized by people that watched movies where the villain had an understandable goal but went about achieving it in a morally wrong way. Often time the media will go out of it's way to point out why the villain's methods are flawed... but retard grognards instead interpret this as praise of the villain's methods. They're the kind of people who unironically say shit like "Hitler did nothing wrong!" and actually believe it.

>>50802592
So, the same idiots who liked Watchmen and think Doctor Doom is a good guy,

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>>50802592
I enjoy that archetype of villain the most, though. I hardly or rarely agree with them, but I really enjoy when the villain's end goal could be seen as more just than the heroes sometimes.

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>>50801631
>for the sake of revenge
>their lifes meaning is fighting
>to save the world from a bigger threat
> to save his family
>Etc...

Pretty much any of these, sans the second. Pick which one ties to your PCs the best for maximum emotional impact. If your PCs have strong family ties and/or have lost those they loved, make the BBEG motivated by family. If the PCs have been working to save the world in a good way, have the BBEG work towards the same goal, just going about it in a morally worse way (because they're trading morality for efficiency or something). This might also lead to some interesting sessions where the PC's and BBEG's interests temporarily align and they have the option of forming a temporary alliance.

A route that always works well in RPGs is that of the Well-Intentioned Extremist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist). It doesn't require the GM to be a skilled writer to pull off, and immediately gives the PCs a good reason to both fight and sympathize with your BBEG unless they decide to join him.

>>50801631
The Mother a cute

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>>50802758
The problem with this in a tabletop setting is that if you're too convincing, the players will just join the BBEG, and then you've got no campaign unless you're doing some kind of faction-warfare sandbox like Fallout New Vegas or something.

>>50803080
The quest givers' bosses are now the Big Bads. It's easy.

I like villains that are evil just cause they're fucking evil, though I don't think this bars them from being complex characters. A man can lead a troubled, twisting life and come out with goals that are just simply selfishly evil. You can be sympathetic towards them yet still hate their fucking guts.

Of course any kind of villain is acceptable if they're written well

I feel like if you've been running a game for 2 fucking years and are just now creating a bbeg you kinda fucked up

>>50805974
Nigga you retarded?

You can run whole campaigns without there ever being a big bad. Or a surprise reveal that there even was a bad guy behind all these disasters.

>>50801631
Great tier and mid tier are fucking boring

>>50805974
Read the post buddy. He originally planned a simply evil for the sake of evil boss, but their sensibilities have changed, and he needs to write a more fitting BBEG.

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Why not have a villian who wants to collect the souls that were promised to him?

>>50801631
Any and all motivations can work. What stories need is interesting conflict, not interesting villains.

>>50806325
Who?

>>50801631

One who is not really a villain, but just finds himself accidentally in the role of BBEG. Like The Squid from The Man Who Killed Batman. He's not a bad guy, he just accidentally achieved the things Bad Dudes everywhere wanted to do. He's hoping everyone around him doesn't find out he doesn't know what he's doing.

>>50801631
Logain was shit tho

"HURR DURR, I'M GOING TO ABANDON THE GROUP DEDICATED TO DESTROYING DEMONS AND IGNORE THE DEMON THREAT SO I CAN ACCUMULATE POLITICAL POWER ACCUSING EVERYONE WHO DOESN'T FALL IN LINE OF BEING PART OF A CONSPIRACY."

Have you considered a villain that does pure evil, is aware of the evil he does - but is unable to deviate from the actions he set in motion?

Like a thief that accidentally steals from the mafia, and is forced to do jobs for the mafia?
Or to fantasy it up, a thief that accidentally steals from Hell, and is forced to do jobs for demons?

>>50802154
Witches in that show had no personality or characterization. They were not even characters, just obstacles. Fighting the Walpurgisnacht was like fighting a hurricane. They do not count.

>>50801631
>So I've been running a campaign for about 2 years now, things have been going pretty well and I've finally decided its time to unveil my BBEG
You can't plan a BBEG without knowing your players and what they like.

Motivations are a lot less important than what the villains actions are.

What do your players like, and what has happened so far in the game?

>>50806421
This.

>>50801631
The best villains are those that can still be wrong, but are reasonable. Nothing sucks more than as a player being confronted with the idea that, "You were the one wrong all along." That works better for stories, or if the players have already agreed they enjoy that shit.

For the most part, a game is far more fun when your PCs come out as heroes. So in this case, you want a 'High Tier' villain. Maybe in the future you can move it up to Great Tier, but never strive to make the villain 'holier than thou'.

Even Shit-Tier villains are better than those. Even if I personally enjoy Elder God Tier, and love to fuck my players over with it once and a while.

>>50801844
It annoys me because "lust for power" is under shit tier despite being the motivation of a LOT of people IRL

Guys, a kind of related question. I am making small campaign with this setting:

A group of adventurers/vagrants arrive an island in order to escape the famine afflicting other lands. The island is fairly large, capable of housing a population of 5000 people across 3 towns across the land, with 2 of them on the coast and the third and largest in the center.

The island exists as a town now because it used to be a maritime tactical location for a country long ago before its collapse. All that remains from those times are long destroyed fortresses on either side of the island, and the local population, who are descendants of the soldiers and peasants who manned these fortresses. They live a quiet, peaceful lives, and crime is nearly unheard of.

What kind of villain, if any, would go with this setting?

>>50802646
>think Doctor Doom is a good guy,
Actually that's more because Doom is likeable and charismatic, while Richards is an asshole and an actual fucking monster in the comics universe. Dude is 100% a horrible person in almost every way.

>>50806601
Someone who despises the intruders for disrupting their peaceful island life, or even just for the potential of the intruders disrupting it. Maybe have a cult leader or some shit talk about how "these foreigners bring the famine with them! They will kill us all. We must drive them out!" etc, etc.

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>>50801631
Your arrangement of tiers based around villain motivation has ensured that only the most boring, trite, and cliché villains are at the top. You apparently have no fucking taste.

Also, yes, you read that right. The "justified" villain trope has been used so God-damned much these days that it's become as boring and cliché as the thing it was originally an alternative to.

I want evil for the sake of evil again. At least that will feel fresh.

>>50806552
I'm being serious about Logain.

He abandoned the ancient order of demon slayers and his king to be killed in a disastrous battle. Then throws the kingdom in disarray by trying to grab power when the shadowspawn are rising up to kill everyone.

He hires assassins to kill any left over demon slayers and continuously divides the nation by accusing people of conspiring with enemy nations.

Also I remember that he alienates both the dwarves and the magic users in some way.

Basically hes power hungry,massively incompetent, and willing to stab his fellow humans in the back at the worst time possible for those things.

>>50806602
Elsewhere story where we have Doctor Steel vs. the Elastic Doom when?

I never get this constant loghain dicksucking. There is nothing to indicate that they would have lost if he had gone in, all it makes him look like is a whiny bitch who didn't like the king and wanted to rule and then secure his line.

>>50806601
A giant, hungry coconut crab. You can't deny that would be the absolute best.

>>50806657
>Basically hes power hungry
I wouldn't call him that. Yes he's incompetent and willing to stab fellow humans in the back at the worst time.
But he's not power hungry. Dude got fucked over by the Not-French for years, and has a MASSIVE hate-boner for them. And he's a paranoid lunatic.

>>50806657
I was truthfully agreeing with you, friend. He had no moral high-ground and in the end was a silly dude who threw the country into a civil war.

>>50806657
Well, he is sort of a peasant militia leader who fell upwards into society after taking part in a successful revolt against invaders.

He shone during times of war, but he sucked during times of peace. So when the nobles of his land started to talk to the nobles of their former invaders again, his old hatred resurfaced, transformed as paranoia.

Didn't help that the only HQ for the ancient order of demon slayers in the region was based in the country... of their former invaders.

>>50806705
lol my bad.

I'm so used to the "heres your (You)" posts.

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>>50806689
That sounds so silly it might just work.

>>50806657
Logain was crazy. He never really believed the demon threat was serious, while the long past threat of foreign invasion was very real in his head. He was fucked by Orlais in the past and couldn't tune in with the present

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>>50806838
Think bigger.

>>50801631
Just do what you like the most and what you think will fit the character. Sometimes, the awnser is "what I didn't choose before".

When I was forever-DM I used to drive myself mad trying to find a villain that everyone could enjoy, but in the end I understood I was doing wrong. Unless your players are clones, they will like different things. One of my players loved the cruel and smug demon cultists who was, de facto, evil for the sake of evil; others believed him to be too bidimensional. But when presented with "villains" that just found themselves on the other side and were arguably sympathethic, this specific player didn't give a fuck and a couple others were uncomfortable because they felt like the bad guys and didn't want that. And then there was the faggot who believed villains based on actual people that exists irl to be "unrealistic", because he got a businessmen mind and cannot really comprehend someone doing something with no self-profit involved.

But all in all, I never got a single villain that was disliked by everyone in the party.

>>50806657
>accusing people of conspiring with enemy nations.
Wasn't the king actually planning an alliance with Not-France?

He was still wrong about everything else, and almost destroyed the country he wanted to protect with his actions.

>>50801631
>Morally grey shit
>For the umpteenth time
It was interesting the first few times, but can we go back to good old fashioned villains?

>>50806467
That's like saying Galactus or Lavos from Chrono Trigger does not count as a villain.

>>50801631
Who is the first guy?

There are three universal things people ( and beings in general I guess? ) have a reason for commiting crimes: Money, Power and Feelings. The only thing that makes it original is the end goal or a multiple-factor type of crime.

>>50807635
Bad guy from Dragon Age origins.

General who betrayed the king and tried to take power because the king was trying to reopen peaceful contact with an enemy nation that the general fought against in the past.

>>50806656
>Also, yes, you read that right. The "justified" villain trope has been used so God-damned much these days that it's become as boring and cliché as the thing it was originally an alternative to.

Railing against the very concept writing rounded characters to be contrarian is the dumbest thing this board does when it comes to GM advice.

>>50806656
>The "justified" villain trope

The "trope" of characters having more motivation than "I am evil" is not something to object to.

The villain that screws you over so they can protect a greater population. In the end the story essentially boils down to you being a revenge-obsessed dick

>>50808060
Evil for the sake of Evil is not the antithesis to well rounded. You can have characters who are both.

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My favorite villains tend to be the ones that are crazy in a consistent way rather than lolrandum. Usually with some kind of delusion about the way the world is. That, and the nostalgia villain. Someone who lost something and will stop at nothing to get it back, relive the past, or try to keep going as if nothing has changed.

>Wizard whose spouse or child died that revived them as a mindless undead or imitated them with a construct and convinces himself they're alive and reacts badly to anyone suggesting this is not the case
>Powerful sorcerer trying to recreate their childhood, the last time they remember being happy, and forcing the world into that shape
>Undead creature seeking the pleasures it knew in life (friendship, food, etc.), carries on despite being anathema to everyone around it

More minor antagonists than true villains or BBEGs, but I still enjoy the tragic figures that have to be put down. How far would you go to bring the comgy times back?

>>50801631

I don't know much about your campaign structure, but one thing I've started liking recently is

>Villain who is against the PCs personally, and has few, if any, wider goals.

They work very well for RPGs, especially because they can motivate players who don't necessarily connect with the things you want to connect to, and guarantees investment in bringing them down.

>>50801631
is this always correct? Delphine in last exile is Shit Tier for the graph, but goddamn if she's scary.

>>50802041
but on the inside they just want to be loved.

>Loghain
>arguably better than the hero's

triggered

The best villains are the ones with good motives/ideals in theory...
...but with their head too far up their own ass to consider the flaws in their plans/the harm in their methods/their own hypocrisy.

Shit tier villains are those who do it for the lulz.

Villains that want power are arguably largely understandable. Greed isn't inherently evil. and is in fact largely celebrated under the capitalist system. It when to slides into taking from another that it becomes villain behavior

>>50807458
Galactus has motivation and personality, he occasionally talks and argues with the main characters, such as with Rachel Summer as Phoenix where he basically shamed her, or with professor X on the Scrull Planet, or with his heralds.

Compare this with the wild bear attacking DiCaprio on the Revenant movie. I don't think anybody would say the bear was a "villain".

>>50801631
I've got one for you. And it'd be the greatest mindfuck of all time.

The Big Bad is the father of one of the characters. Best to pick the one who is the 'main' character of the group, the leader as it were, the one who you spend the most time interacting with.

Here's the catch. The BBEG? He adores his child. Truly, and utterly loves them. He was already on his way to the top, and he knows the balance of destiny is that it can't be maintained. Oh he'll get there, and live like a king for a few decades MAYBE, but he's gotta go down eventually, the gods, or somebody else, will fuck it all up.

So, he's engineered everything to insure that his child and their friends are the ones who bring him down.

Why you ask? Because he loves his child. He loves them enough to not care about alignment differences or 'base philosophy'. He loves them to the point that he's going to give them the most precious thing of all.

He's going to give his child immortality. He is going to engineer the situation so that his son or daughter is the one who dethrones his evil empire, stops his evil plot, and saves the kingdom/world/universe from their dear old dad.

Oh sure, there'll be emotional anguish, there'll be tears, there'll be betrayal. But the point is, at the end of it, their child will not only be strong enough to take them down, safe from ANY threats and independent and strong. But they'll be famous, heroes, get all the ladies/guys/whatever they want, maybe even go on to found their own kingdom that'll probably last a lot longer than their dad's evil empire ever did.

Everything beyond that? They did it because they enjoyed getting power, wealth, babes, and ruling over folks. They did it because they were strong and others were weak.

The campaign? The entire campaign existed solely so that the protagonists WOULD be heroes.

>>50813375

The end of the campaign is when the players realize that they played into the Villain's hands, and he won. He was the legendary evil emperor, brought low by their own child and their companions, insuring the story would be told centuries upon centuries later.

Because that's what parents do. They sacrifice themselves for what's best for their kids. A Lawful Evil Parent wouldn't care about the philosophical differences between parent and child, they'd do what they thought best for that child.

And setting things up so that their child ends up being the famed hero, earns their way to the top, slaughters minions, defeats the evil armies, thwarts all those rituals, and undoes the evil work of decades, is just perfect. It'll turn them into a powerful, independent, warrior capable of facing down perhaps even the gods in time! What more could an LE parent want for their child?

>>50813375
>>50813398
Pure fucking gold

>>50801631
The villain's motivation only matters insofar as it's significant to the plot. LotR never said why Sauron wanted to rule Middle Earth (it probably talks about why in the Simarillion but that's another matter) but it's a good story nonetheless.

>>50813398
the best part is that you can literally slot this motivation into literally -any other goals- they have. They were trying to end the world?

Of course not. Oh sure, that's what they said, it was to raise the STAKES. If they really wanted to end the world they could have set it up to go down years ago with a little more planning, no chance of interference.

Also, we can go with the opinion that they'd not be pulling any punches either, not exactly. They'd throw lethal challenges at their child, again, because it's what's best for their child.

And inarguably, they'd have succeeded! Your PCs will be what? upper levels right? Like around 15-20 or equivalent when you're done? That puts them stronger than almost any other being on the average DnD campaign world. Most high ranking nobility and powerful warriors cap out around 14.

They'll be rich, famous, have done the right thing within their own morality, and have earned it, and their happily ever after will be perfect.

Bonus points if you have them discover years after in the epilogue that good old dad deliberately chained himself to some kind of soul anchor so that he could make sure nobody tried to crib on his kid's final victory and happy ending.

>>50813463
>>50813398
>>50813375
Another bonus is that what this dad is doing is INARGUABLY evil.

They are throwing all their minions, all their trusted allies, and everyone under them for their personal (relatively speaking) benefit. It's the largest con in the world.

He's caused the suffering of thousands, even millions of people, all so that his child would be raised to be as strong and powerful as they possibly could be.

>>50801631
Your pic is posted all the time as if it was gospel but there is no scientific way to produce a good villain. A good villain fits the story being told.

What kind of story do you hope to tell? What kinds of stories typically develop as a result of your PCs' actions?

>>50801631
TO SAVE THE WORLD FROM A BIGGER THREAT
This is one of the most based motivations out there, because you can't fault the BBEG for having it. It presents the perfect juxtaposition between securing the existence of the kingdom/species/galaxy/etc at the cost of freedom, or securing freedom at the possible cost of thousands, if not millions of lives.

>>50813375
>>50813398
>>50813463
>>50813491

This works even better if you make it so that his innermost circle, his body guards, understand fully what's going on, make them all outsiders or something, things you can't actually kill only banish back to their home planes. They find it weird, but understandable, and help him the whole way.

>>50806411
Gaunter O'Dimm from the Witcher 3

Basing my BBEG off of him. He's pretty neat as a villain

>>50813375
>>50813398

Wasn't this a plot arc in Order of the Stick?

>>50813999
basically, I just strung it out longer and made it into the main campaign.

Also that Dad didn't engineer the situation so that his son would grow strong and beat him, the premise of this one is that the Dad engineers the whole thing from start to finish specifically for their kid's benefit. They might have started off the despotic overlord, but once their kid was born they made sure their kid would grow up to beat them.

Doesn't make it any less awesome of a plot.

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>>50813682
unless you're this fucking trash piece of shit.

Thoughts on this villain?

>Cosmology has a sort of "conjunction of planes" story to it. World used to be inhabited by elves alone.
>First event populated with dwarves and some non-fey monsters
>Second event caused by trying to reverse the first resulted in humans showing up
>Humans not treated so great at first (slaves)
>One human manages to steal the source of elven magic which he rused under the guise of an abolitionist movement (supported by sympathetic elves)
>He ascends to relative-demigod status and leads the humans to do what they do best: populate and exterminate.
>One elf is locked away (sacrifices) as a chosen elf, damacles sword, failsafe in case the elves lose with powerful magic to return at a set time.
>Elves are a husk of their former selves
>Dwarves fell second
>Humans rule the land and treat other races like second class scum.
>Demigod human learns about this and realizes he will die. Elf contingency will return and lead the elves back to victory. Enters a magical sleep with an obscure prophecy magic to allow for his "sons" (descendants) to wake him when the elf re-awakes.

Here's where the bad guy comes back in. The PCs are the descendants (two are unaware of this twist). The elf has re-awoken. He seeks simply to restore his people from the tatters and possibly revenge, possibly a mutual coexistence. He also has to stop the PCs if he has any hope of stopping the demigod from we-awakening.

Interesting?

>>50814447
I hated that game so much.

It wasn't even possible to save anyone with the good guy victory unless you bought up all the land in the game first. You had to basically become the land lord mogul of the world and pour the money back into the defense fund because lord knows taxation wasn't a possible option.

The options for that entire series were so damn ham fisted. Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning did it way better.

>>50814804
isn't that the elder scrolls mythology?

>>50814832
No. But definitely influenced by the Witcher mythos.

>>50813682
It's a fucking stupid motivation. If he was trying to save the world from a bigger threat, why didn't he tell anyone? It's just contrived 2deep4u shit.

>>50815072
Not the guy you are replying to but...

It's possible that a BBEG using this motivation does tell people. And, like most people trying to avert prophetic doom, most people don't believe him.

Except for a group of true believers. These are his "minions". Most people don't believe the BBEG.

And if you aren't with him... you're against him.

is there a Meme Tier?

Personally, I don't like the very concept of world-threatening BBEG, I tend to play smaller-scale campaigns. That way, villain motivations are easier to come by and the story is a lot more relateable.

My main villains tend to be people like: A drug lord moving into politics looking to become "El Presidente" by any means necessary, the second prince of an empire who wants to inherit the throne and so he wants access to the lucrative mines of the neighboring kingdom and other stuff like that, or maybe the corrupt general of an enemy nation just looking out for the interest of his friends back home.

I find those kinds of games much more compelling as opposed to some threat to the whole world that only a couple plucky adventurers can stop.

My personal favorite kind of villain is the kind who does it because it needs to be done. Perhaps its to keep a greater evil in check or something, but I find it more interesting when they genuinely apologize for what they do, and wish to stop but their work is necessary, like the yin to the yang.

>>50813375
better if you pick one of the other PCs, so that the dad is constantly trying to pick off the 'leaders' of the party to get their child to be the true hero of the tale.

>>50801631

Loghain was actually right in abandoning ostogar. Cailan was a bit of an idiot, but a kindhearted one. Loghain's forces wouldn't have been enough to save them.
Solas confirms it in DAI, using his elf-god powers to see alternate timelines or whatever his methods were.

Also, the Orleisian treatment of Fereldan was horrendous. The nobles and Cheveilars of Orlais would abuse, rape, and just plain murder the peasants for any reason. Loghain remembers how they treated Fereldan, and if you talk to Leliana about Orlais, is how the Orleisian nobles treat their own.

Loghain didn't know this, but Cailan planned to unite Fereldan and Orlais by marrying Empress Celene. Uniting the countries would be inviting back in all of the abuse of Orleisian nobility on top of the nobles of Fereldan.

Loghain's retreat as Ostagar was just, while banning the Wardens, the actions of Arl Howe, and his justification of any means to "strengthen" the country were misguided and cleary wrong.

>>50813375
>>50813398
Meh

Reminds me of this low level villain concept I'm planning to use in a campaign at some point.

Basically, this [fantasy race] Knight is a pathological liar with a reputation as a beacon of goodness, whose order is gaining influence through a large city.
He claims to believe in truth and justice (and maybe really does), but will do awful shit when he knows no one will see or speak up.
Then he'll regret it, and eventually he'll make up excuses for why it didn't count and his behavior is justified. In his mind, he is Good, so what he does is Good.
In the end he's just a bully with low self-esteem, who cares about feeling good, not doing good, and willingly blinds himself to the damage he causes.

He's manipulative, but bad at it. He preys on young-adult, vulnerable, often marginalized idealists (in the 16-20 range, being around 24 himself).
They usually don't have moral compasses yet, they want to belong, they want an identity and a cause, they feel powerless and want to change the world.
So he grooms them into believing him to be much wiser, and indoctrinates them into following an extremely reassuring and simple worldview.
When they're part of his order, he exploits peer pressure to silence dissent and criticism, to gradually radicalize his little clique.

His reputation protects him (he's quick to erase his mistakes and misdeeds), and his main defense is painting accusations as [fantasy race] discrimination.
He believes there are people who deserve death and against whom anything is justified. Those are usually his ideological opponents.
But he's quick to include those who are not pure (read: radical) enough, and those who point out his flaws, even on his side. Especially if they have evidence.
And the PCs will. So if they speak up they'll get on his very literal shit-list.

But I think we've all seen, known, or had a friend targeted by that guy. That should make him easy to hate and fun to expose as a giant hypocrite.
At least I hope.

>>50801631
Evil because fake motivation.

He's just evil because evil in reality. Reveal this late by having him punk an idealist lieutenant and that will often make players despise him.

>>50820965
You've made a SJW as your BBEG

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>>50821031

>>50801631
>Villains solely defined by motivation
Porky Minch would be shit tier by this pic but he's more memorable than almost any elder god tier villain.

>>50806941
Not OP, but I actually am trying to do a villain like him with a Morkoth

>>50801631
Is a villain side kick evil if she Just wants to kill and be killed?

>>50806564
I Agree. Shit Tier should be things like Ledger's Joker. Shitty arsed 'lulz' villain who can only function as a villain because the plot specifically said so, regardless of how asinine and contrite it has to be.

Same goes with Bane in the third film. Plot hole after plot hole after plot hole just so Bane could be a credible threat that comes screeching to an anticlimactic halt the single moment someone remembered that guns fucking kill people and just shoots him.

An antagonist should carry a plot, no matter how bad.
The plot must never support the antagonist. The moment that happens it instantly becomes a chore to have to watch.

>>50801631
Without context, what I would try to do is try to make him the player's "shadow". That is, lets say the players are loot-hungry power gamers, then what he is, is a former adventurer who found some powerful artifact that made him think he was a god. If the players are kind, good-doers, then he was once an idealistic paladin or holy warrior who became disillusioned. Etc.

Something like that. That way the players can hopefully see part of themselves in the villain and have some sort of connection with him even though they despise him.

Villains who are in it for the sake of power/evil don't necessarily need to be GOOD villains, they just need to be effective and enjoyable to the audience/players. A hammy sick fuck who dominate every scene he's in with his bombastic presence or sheer malice can work just fine if played effectively.

I like huge cooperate BBEGs, like in the sci-fi setting I'm using. I've got this feudal Japan faction that is a basically a huge corporation that owns so many planets that it's more of a empire than anything. They do the typical affair of exploiting the lower classes that can't fight back, enforcing a bogus system of honor that gives the higher classes the right to treat people below them however they want (tsujigiri is a common practice), and exploiting the resources of planets until they're shriveled husks, regardless of who lives on them.

They're not terribly complex, but they give the opportunity for a lot of different NPCs and villains underneath them, and it makes them such a powerful force that all the PCs can hope to do is annoy them if they try really hard.

>>50802008
A lich suffering from age induced dementia due to an improperly fitted seal on his phylactry.
Knows he's evil due to a detection spell but can't really remember why.
Sticks with it and hopes it'll come back to him.
Goes out of the way to oppose heroes because then it might jog his memory, but always tries to make sure they have an escape rout 'cause if he killed them then he'd have to go and find a new group to oppose.
Gathers minions habitually.
Makes sure to monologue, even if it's a bit unfocused and leaves time during every scheme for an evil laugh.
Tries to drive off the occasional feelings of ennui with maniacal laughter.

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>>50823590
Case in point: Pure evil for the sake of evil/power, easily one of the least complex villain of his serie and yet easily carries it.

A villain's motivations don't really matter all that much, OP. What matters is that you make a charismatic villain, a memorable villain. A scheming baron who grabs power so he can do what he want? You can make your players hell-bent on killing him, if he screws with the players enough.

Anyway! The point is, execution is key.

>>50801631
My campaign's current Big Bad is kidnapping people and emptying whole villages to try and figure out how to use a magic item. Currently it only brings them back as zombies with varying degrees of free will and past identity but he's convinced that it'll actually become the secret to immortality. In his eyes it doesn't matter how many people die or suffer in his quest because he'll just revive them all anyway, and a little pain now is worth ending the whole concept of death.

All of the 'ally' organizations the PCs are in contact with are shades of grey in their own right. One group wants the artifact destroyed because they think necromancy is inherently evil. Another group wants the artifact retrieved so they can study/control it themselves, and it's entirely possible they'll do the same thing the BBEG is if he's proven to be correct.

The only thing left up in the air right now is whether or not the artifact really CAN bring people back 100% okay. Right now I'm thinking that it can theoretically bring them back (at most) at 95% of their original personality and ability, but that 5% loss is cumulative and can break their sanity and their very souls if used more than once. I'm considering tweaking those figures and the requirements so as to make the decision harder for my players.

The other major concern is that the setting is going through a second year of famine, and if dead people stop staying dead then things are going to run out much faster. The population loss from recent wars is the only thing keeping the cities from the brink, and the nature of the artifact means it can't be used as a replacement for food. People are going to suffer even if he wins... unless the revival is kept to small groups and not made global (as it can in theory be made). So you might have the ethical dilemma of the rich being functionally immortal while the common folk have vastly shorter life spans.

>>50806601
You have a land in effective stasis. Your PCs are the catalyst for something bad to happen. An offhanded word that spawns some kind of uprising, or maybe some of the islanders have had enough of their tiny land, so they try to steal the PC's boat.

Honestly you can make any one of those motivations decent with enough good writing, even the "Shit Tier" ones.

Satan in Paradise Lost was basically "Shit Tier" in terms of motivation; what makes him a great villain is his inherent charisma and that the "evil for evil's sake" doesn't come out of nowhere, so much as it's an angered response to his humiliation and fall from grace.

Evil for Evil's sake isn't "stupid" so much as it's someone falling into an angry, self-destructive cycle and the power to lash out at a greater number of people.

>>50823624
Then the players find evidence that the lich became a lich in order to continue magical studies on some terrible thing. Like a plague. IIRC there was a campaign green text around about something similar. Mage makes himself immortal by inhabiting a golem or some shit all so he can research a cure for some magic disease killing his people.

>>50806602
>Doom is likeable and charismatic
Could not disagree more.
>Richards is an asshole
So what? It's not like Reed is the only one Doom interacts with, Doom is a dick to everyone.

>>50806689
Attack it's weak point for massive damage.

>>50806467
This to be honest, if anything the Villian of the show is QB or possibly even Homura.

Both of which fufill the "They believe they are doing the right thing, regardless of the outcome." vibe.

>>50808060
False dichotomy. You can have a well-rounded character who still acts Chaotic Evil (or however you want to term it; CE is just being used as a useful shorthand in this case) for the sake of being Chaotic Evil.

Nolan's take on The Joker is probably the best recent example of this.

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>>50816056
>The nobles and Cheveilars of Orlais would abuse, rape, and just plain murder the peasants for any reason. Loghain remembers how they treated Fereldan, and if you talk to Leliana about Orlais, is how the Orleisian nobles treat their own.

>yfw this is how whigs think history really was like

>yfw games writers use nothing but pop-history and anachronisms to base the assumptions of a fantasy setting on