> Party runs into a lich/dragon/devil/miscellaneous hyperintelligent

>>50776601
Your players are idiots, so, naturally, yes.

>>50776601
So, can we get some storytime here to see what's really going on? I want to hear some specifics

>>50776652

> Party runs into what looks like a young woman
> 3d6 spined devils attack
> Party fights them off and does the "you seem trustworthy, join us on our noble quest" spiel, without vetting her
> Woman gives them sob story about her home being taken over by evil knights
> Party becomes suspicious
> Starts making Insight checks, deciding that she's not on the up and up
> Woman rolls well for her Deception check, but I decide that the party should be rewarded
> Me: "Something seems off about her, as if she isn't telling the whole truth."
> Party interrogates her, and she admits that she was the one who hired the knights, but that they'd turned on her
> Group smiles and nods, confident that they've figured out her dark secret
> Fights hordes of paladins at her behest, despite the leader of the party being a paladin and two members of the party having the ability to sense devils
> By the time they get to the castle, they've waded through the blood of dozens of anointed knights
> Get conned into killing a Malebranche in Hell

The woman was an Erinyes (because of course she was). She'd trapped them in a scheme where the knights had found out about her father, the Malebranche, then betrayed her father by hiring the party to kill him after killing the knights.

She also summoned the 3d6 spined devils.

>>50777033
>Fights hordes of paladins at her behest, despite the leader of the party being a paladin
OP, you have here one of the few legitimate circumstances in which you can have your paladin PC Fall.

>>50778770
A paladin only falls when he gives up on Good fucker

>>50776601
Sounds like your players want a nice, straightforward do-missions games from an interesting questgiver. I guarantee if they found your lich/dragon/devil/miscellaneous hyperintelligent monster annoying, it'd hit the dirt in less than one session.

>>50778849
Sounds like he did when he decided to become the devil whisperer. At the very least whichever god is giving him favor might reconsider after being manipulated so easily. The dude is unfit for duty.

Can he not detect evil on this thing or something?

>>50778849
>killing fellow paladins
>"but he still didn't give up on good!"
M8 if paladins didn't have magical evil vision that would be an excuse: he "thought" he was killing evil should have come into question at the latest the moment his anti-evil abilities did fuck all to the other paladins: you can't just start cutting people up at the word of one woman and pretend you're lawful good. This paladin was deceived, but satanic figures are generally deceivers. He still did something terrible and there's a low chance his god isn't pissed at him for being so foolish as to ignore the gifts he could have used to not be deceived.

>>50776601
>party runs into a monster
>they're so stupid they didn't try to act against the monster's plans at all

>>50777033
>party didn't realise she was a monster

Pretty fucking contradictory m8.Most of your OP post is invalidated if the party haven't realised it's a monster that they're dealing with. Seriously, if this is how good you are at getting information across I'm fairly dubious that it's the players' fault for not picking up your oh-so-clever hints.

>>50778849
Assuming you're OP I have to commend you for not making the paladin fall when he thinks he's doing the right thing. But you really should have his god/authority figure/anthropomorphism of Good show up in his dreams and tell him to cut that shit out or he'll fall.

>>50779119
I ain't

>>50779116

If I had the ability to detect evil and fiends at will, and I knew fiends could change shape, and I ran into a young woman who told me I should go kill some paladins for her, I would at the very least consider it possible that she's a fiend, and use my evil-dar to make sure.

Fuck, even in the real world people don't tell you their motivations up front. It's wise to investigate before doing something risky on their behalf.

>>50776601
>>50777033
How experienced are your players? That sounds like a mistake a newbie would make.

>>50776601
You group can easily fuel a webcomic in contents.

>>50776601
I had a lich who literally used the party as a unguided missile against all of his rivals and they still never questioned it as they burned down half the known world.

Players only really want a cause, it doesn't matter what that entails. Show me a man that is free and I'll show you a man that is terrified.
Magic isn't necessary to take what people are all too happy to give away.

Intelligence has nothing to do with it, it's all about having the will to question and nerve to face the truth.

>>50777777

>>50776601
First rule of story-telling
>Never create characters smarter than yourself
First rule of role-playing
>Never play characters smarter than yourself

It's that fucking simple. So not only your players are shit, but you are shit yourself for falling at such simple task.
Also
>D&D
>The game is anything else than killing lots of things

>>50776601
Never assume players will make a smart decision. Railroading exists for a reason.

Ive had players identify a goal and PHYSICALLY go in the exact opposite direction from it.

Ive had players complain that they never get anything done, then shirk 5 hooks in a row.

Ive expected players to remember any details from previous sessions, and even staked rewards on it, and nobody is was up to the task.

Not all players are idiots, but most are. Never think highly of those who have not earned it by surprising you as often as you surprise them.

>>50781616
rolling for elf

>>50776601
Rule of a thumb - never, ever, on any condition, assume your players give a flying fuck about the plan or even scenario you've prepared.
This will save you a lot of trouble and stop from making idiotic assumptions, like "they will obviously figure it out".

They don't care, you dolt.
Now act on it.

I have never had players ever try and "figure out" what's really going on.

Oh, sure, they make passing comments like "I bet this is X doing Y" or something when a new event or hook happens. But when they're actually in play, when they're in the middle of a plotline, they just let themselves be led by the nose.

Obviously evil criminal lord invites them over and casually insists they go kill people for him, steal things and deliver goods to places for his work? They do it. Never questioning how or why.

And then 30 sessions later when they are being told "Someone killed all this guy's enemies, secured his trade routes, and made it so he's perfectly positioned to enact this massive evil on the country? "Oh, ok. Wonder who did that..."

This is how all my games since the dawn of time have gone like this. Just once, I'd like to see a player actually attempt to discern events as they're happening.

>>50781646
Pretty much this. It's why quantum ogres are a thing. All you need to do is give your players the illusion of choice and while that might sound malicious it's the best for you the DM who spent time working on the campaign and for the players to experience your refined effort rather than something you made up on the spot to fit their whims.

But still keep your plans open ended regardless just in case they do something totally outrageous.

>>50781758
For mentioning Quantum Ogres, you fucking are my nigger forever. I explained Quantum Ogre to some of my more veteran players, and Ive never had a better group.

For some reason new players come in thinking that Im there to fuck up their lives, when all I want is to tell a story, and be told a story. Its that simple.

But yeah, its like fucking the middle of the night here and Im wide awake, brimming with brotherly pride that somebody else is part of the Church of Quantum Ogre.

>>50781793
Hey it works. The players chose what's behind door number 1, they don't need to know that what's also behind door number 2 and 3 is the exact same thing.

>>50781876
Or that if they suggested something awesome instead of what you had planned, then GUESS WHATS BEHIND THE DOOR!

>>50777033
> Fights hordes of paladins at her behest
The first paladin didn't try something like
"Who the fuck are you and why are you trying to kill me? You don't look evil, and I should know, since I'm a paladin, and I can clearly see you're a paladin. WTF man, are you going blackguard?"

If he didn't, then you're kind of a dick DM. Now, if they were all instant stealth kills, sure. If they didn't loot the body and find his HOLY SYMBOL, sure. If the "hoard" was just one group that they took out quickly before getting more clues, sure.

Otherwise.... you're kind of a dick.

>>50781616
Rollin' for stronk wymyn who will love me gently.

>>50782121
>schizo vamp
Well, I guess that counts as strong in one sense.....

Most DMs would be happy to see that they're able to take the players where they want them, but I can also see why you'd prepare for them to actually see what's going on with this villain. But even then, that's not really a problem, that just means you have two ways to go about it.


>>50781616
Rolling for the keks

>>50781616
rolling

>>50776601
This seems to be working as intended. If it is not, consider the following:

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule

>>50781616
I'm feeling lucky, punk

>>50780402
And then you do this and you run into another thread in /tg/ where a GM is crying that his Paladin just spams Detect Evil and smites accordingly.
Give it a rest, it's stupid. Only because you have some at will special power doesn't mean you have to abuse it. Sure, there's also the line to wanton neglegicence, but I'd rather have my players try to figure stuff out themselves rather than brute force it with Int/skill checks or spells/special abilities.

>>50781758
>>50781793
>There are people who had to explain Quantum Ogres to their players
You know what really scares me as a GM? That such obvious things like QO, or any other basic principles of story-telling need to be explained, usually in long monologues and extensive discussions. It means that people on the other side of the table don't even bother with thinking about the story they participate in, and don't exactly realise how pointless their "But it's a railroad!" remarks are.
It's really scary, because you suddenly start to question of all their actions to this point were genuine tactics and planning or just blind picks and random choices, if they apparently don't care about story elements and details.

>>50778849
That's a good method of deciding it when there's a sadistic choice scenario and the GM doesn't want to be an asshole.

It is not a good method when the Paladin starts outright killing other Paladins (Assuming OP is relaying this accurately)

>>50781758
>>50781793
>>50786880

So, I might be a complete moron, but what exactly are Quantum Ogres?

>>50786999

It's the idea if you offer players left and right, no matter what they pick they'll fight ogres because that's what the GM has prepared.

>>50787031
Oh! I've been doing that, but never knew this thing had a name. And only one of my players has figured it out, only because she started GMing and came to me for advice.

I learned something new today.

>>50786999
Unlike what >>50787031 said, Quantum Ogres are about players ASSUMING they would get the same outcome regardless of choice and throwing a tantrum about it, with no real means to check if they were right or not.