Dragon-off

>>50735798
Doesn't Tiamat always win these 'dragon offs'?

Some sort of dominion over dragons something. You know.

>>50735798
Lowfyr. After he steals dragon killing tech from the Azzies, nothing will be safe from his commercial interests.

>>50735843
You do not understand Shadowrun.

>>50735798
Never bet on a man who wears make up.

>>50735798
Friendly reminder that Shadowrun Great Dragons are all immensely powerful reality warpers.

>>50735898
Dieties are powerful reality warpers too ya know.

>>50735877
>You do not understand Shadowrun.
See >>50735961.

I do know shadowrun. And I know rogue dragons can get shot down.
I'm not sure you're gonna shoot down Tiamat. Just sayin'.

Tiamat has more heads. More heads = win.

Lofwyr is cooler. Cooler = win.

>>50737217
tiamat is capable of an ice breath weapon, thus literally cooler

>>50735798
Lofwyr can almost certainly order a thermonuclear strike. I dont see how he would even have to get out of his chair.

>>50735893
>man

>>50738382
Tiamat is immune to fire.

>>50738382
Tiamat is not just a dragon. She's a deity. A major deity of primal chaos and evil.
She's a bit beyond the scope of nukes.

>>50735798
Lofwyr.

He hires a team of shadowrunners for dirt-cheap price that blows up Tiamat/sends her to another dimension/feeds her to Chicago bugs.

No, really. Seeing as how shadowrunners deal with absolute bullshit on daily basis (INSECT SPIRITS AND YAMA KINGS AND ALL KINDS OF BULLSHIT), I'm sure that they will be able to figure out how to do it.

It depends where they fight. How much tougher Tiamat is than an "average" Greater Dragon? Will Lofwyr hire an army, artillery, and airforce to help him? Can Tiamat counter it with an army of her own, and mages? Does Tiamat, being a deity and mother of the dragons know more than Lofwyr who has lived trough many worlds?

I think I could strawman it like a Batman vs Superman on level of dragons.

>>50738667
Oh for fuck's sake.
Tiamat is not a greater dragon.
She's the motherfucking goddess of greater dragons. She's not just 'tougher', she's an entity of a greater order. It's not like Batman versus Superman, it's like Batman versus Lucifer.

>>50738626
Maybe if Lofwyr has Doomguy on his speed dial, but your average hobo with a shotgun is a little out of their depth on this one.

>>50739003
I'm pretty sure he does. Or at the very least, he has people on his speed dial who know Doomguy and can free him out of Hell.

>>50739003
>doomguy
>being hired
>holding a job

>>50739000
>Lucifer vs Batman
Assuming DC, Lucifer wins because they're written by Neil Gaiman.

>>50739149
Yeah, because DC Lucifer surely needs writer bias to win against Batman.

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>>50739003
>but your average hobo with a shotgun is a little out of their depth on this one.
>Doomguy
>THE Doomguy
>Average hobo with a shotgun

>>50735798
>Tiamat vs Lofwyr
You think I'm going to use D&D Tiamat? HAHA! Lowfyr's now dealing with a primordial deity, who's fucked now?

>>50740751
I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.

>>50740803
Tiamat.

Tiamat and Lofwyr would engage in proxy fights to judge their opponents strength first. Evil or duped adventurers for Tiamat, Shadowrunners for Lofwyr. They would discover through these missions for information gathering, sabotage, and assassination that a straight up fight between the two is far too risky. They would then start magical research into finding a macguffin capable of crippling the other. For the next few centuries, a shadow war is fought between the two. The first to find something capable of crippling the other is the one who wins.

Seriously guys, they're arrogant and greedy, not stupid.

I don't really understand on what basis so many people are shilling Lofwyr to this level. I'm well aware Shadowrun dragons are not the same thing as D&D dragons, but Tiamat is a major primal deity. How do they even compare?

>>50742343
This. But I suppose it's just Shadowrun fans.

I mean, I like Shadowrun, but I can tell when Tiamat would just break the poor guy in half. Lofwyr's main thing is wealth and influence, right? Tiamat would just fly over and sit on him.

>>50742394
>>50742343

Lets compare the numbers.

In the latest stating of Tiamat she had around 650 hp?

A Balista in 5e does 3d10 damage. (average of 16.5).
This means it would take about 40ish ballistics hits to take Tiamat down.

Now compare a Balista to armor piercing tank rounds, tomahawk missiles, 50 caliber sniper rifles, anti-aircraft flak guns, hell, there's even laser weapon in SR.

How long will those 650 hit points last against the army of man, under Lofwyr's control?

Do I think the average shadowrunner group has a chance? Hell no. Do I think she can survive 100 tank buster missiles HELLLLL no.

>>50738538
And yet her avatar dies when pasted by the shockwave from the nuke, cause that's force damage. Nevermind the radiation. Granted she's a god so that won't kill her spirit on it's own so there's gonna be a grudge match in a year and a day if he doesn't have a soul trap or some shit. Still putting my money on the dragon with nukes and a modern army. We've seen adventurers with swords and sorcery take her down, no reason to think a well prepared army couldn't do the same.

>>50742471
>650 hit points
Anon, if you're comparing hit points along, I'm not sure you're really qualified to judge this.

Wizards have even lower hit points, you know. I'm not actually sure Lofwyr could take a high level D&D Wizard. Consider that.

>>50742507
read the OP it isn't a 1v1. Lofwyrs got his boys. No wizard is going to stop a bullet faster than the speed of sound.

>>50735798
Why lesser?

>>50742343
You don't seem to understand. It's simple math.

Tiamat can defeat Lowfyr, sure.
Lowfyr can hire a team of murderhobos or an army or somehow use the insect spirits or use lesser deities etc.
A team of murderhobos can defeat Tiamat.
An army is guaranteed to defeat Tiamat.
Insect spirits will make Tiamat wish she was in hell.

It's simply a matter of whether it's a straight-up PvP 1v1 fight, or a strategical battle. The OP seems to indicate the latter. Therefore, Lowfyr wins.

>>50742533
>No wizard is going to stop a bullet faster than the speed of sound.
Do you play D&D?

No one will even see that wizard before he cracks the plane in half.

>>50742471
>Lofwyr wins because he's richer and he can afford nukes
Disregarding the fact that Tiamat is immune to anything that isn't divine or epic-level in nature...
Are you aware that Tiamat is immeasurably wealthier than Lofwyr, right?
And she has inherent knowledge of anything related to dragons, so she knows exactly what he has got and what technology he has access to. If Lofwyr had any weapon to use against her, she could just buy it. Hell, she could buy *him*.

>>50742634
No, Lofwyr wins becaue he's got access to Azzie blood magic that can murder anyone anywhere in the universe provided you have a sample of blood of his relative.
Any dragon is a relative of Tiamat. Therefore...

>>50742613
>Tiamat can defeat Lowfyr, sure.
Yes.

>Lowfyr can hire a team of murderhobos or an army or somehow use the insect spirits or use lesser deities etc.
>>50742634
Tiamat is richer than Lofwyr. If we consider wealth a factor, it's against him.

>A team of murderhobos can defeat Tiamat.
A team of murderhobos that have reached into near-godhood, perhaps.

>An army is guaranteed to defeat Tiamat.
Tiamat is immune to physical damage and even if her avatar were to be destroyed, it would just be an inconvenience.
And she has armies across the planes, you know.

>>50742704
Look man, as >>50742713 implies, Tiamat is just like a better version of Lofwyr.

I double dare you to use that blood magic on her, too.

>>50742713
> physical damage
laughing_shadowrun_mages/shamans/adepts.jpg
You realize Shadowrun has a concept of essence and almost any mage (except technomancers) has direct access to spirit world?
I'm talking about "insect spirits casually eating Tiamat's soul" level of bullshit here.

>>50742748
>essence
Astral, I mean.

>>50742533
>No wizard is going to stop a bullet faster than the speed of sound.
Holy crap.

Uh. Have you played high level D&D anon? In the nicest way possible. Your ignorance is showing.

>>50742613
>Insect spirits will make Tiamat wish she was in hell.
She is in hell. Is her home.

>>50742849
Alright, will make her wish she was in Doublehell. Or Spookytown.

>>50742748
Are we allowing cross world contamination here? Can Tiamat not just out bid Lowfyr with her literal near infinite wealth and use the same tactics on him?

This really has to be a war done without money, because for every coin, credit, or dollar, Lowfyr has Tiamat also has.

>>50742885
>because for every coin, credit, or dollar, Lowfyr has Tiamat also has
Not to mention access to D&D casters. Shadowrun casters can't even leave their plane.

>>50742748
>>50742748
We're comparing two different settings with different ideas of magic and supernatural powers, but still, one thing is having casual access to magical powers and one thing is being able to harm a deity. And you're basically implying that a deity has a soul comparable to that of a mortal.

But that's not all.
Tiamat outclasses Lofwyr in every field.

Direct confrontation? Tiamat is physically stronger and is a fucking deity, and she has insane spells in addition to that.

Magic influence? Again, Tiamat has superior magic powers without even considering those inherent to her deity status.

Wealth? Lofwyr is filthy rich, sure. Tiamat's wealth is measured in quadrillions of gold coins. I'm pretty sure she could buy Shadowrun's plane of existence if it was for sale.

Intel? Lofwyr's comes from his own magic, that of his hired mages, and whatever net of satellites and whatever else he can buy. Tiamat is almost omniscent in regards to everything concerning dragons, can out-buy whatever intel net Lofwyr has bought, and has superior magic. She can scry whatever he's doing from another plane of existance. At least fluff-wise (and Lofwyn is entirely fluff, so it's not something you can disregard), she can influence events from other planes as well.

Weapons, minions, supplies? Lofwyr has everything money can buy. Tiamat is, again, immeasurably richer, and in addition to that she has control over flights of chromatic dragons from multiple planes of existence and other minions.

So how is Lofwyn going to win again?

>>50742885
Well, according to OP,
> Tiamat has all the benefits of a lesser deity
> Lowfyr has the pull and influence of Saeder-Krupp
The thing is, a lesser deity in Shadowrun is something along the lines of Yama Kings, which while terrifying apparently can be defeated by a team of well-connected murderhobos, or Totem Spirits, I guess.

On the other hand, the pull and influence of SK is not all-powerful in SR universe.

>>50742911
Yes they can. There is also a fuck ton more Shadowrun casters at all power levels than D&D. A level 20 mage is something like a once in a century event? Shadowrun has multiple mages at least that powerful AND some immortals kicking around that can sling some serious spells.

>>50742946
Enough I can guarantee he can equip an army with dragon killing tech.

>>50742946
Saying that Tiamat's powers should be defined by how powerful deities are in Shadowrun equals saying that Lofwyr is just another dragon from D&D, and thus Tiamat uberstomps him.

>>50742967
The thing is, astral realm in SR universe is a very real concept that is used to fight shit that would normally curbstomp you. Your magic doesn't really help you when a shaman is fighting your spirit instead of your body.

>>50742946
> Tiamat has all the benefits of a lesser deity
Why Lesser? She has never BEEN lesser in any edition or pre-edition. Her Aspects (Pieces of her) might have had equivalently level of lesser deities.
But if the match is now about an Aspect vs Lofwyr, well now his against a Demi-god WITH a greater gods back up support. Basically fighting two things now. And even if he could out match a solo encounter vs the lesser: Who cares? Tiamat will just make another in a year, or come herself if she cared enough.

Sorry tangent. Why lesser?

>>50742999
>your magic
Your magic, power, wealth, connections etc., I mean.

>>50742967
Exactly. They're simply different power scales.
Tiamat literally controls flights of Lowfyrs in the chromatic dragons.

>>50742965
>There is also a fuck ton more Shadowrun casters at all power levels than D&D.
And Tiamat can outbid Lofwyr for all of them.

>>50742999
Oh my fucking god. We're talking about a deity. What gives you the impression that they have a body and a spirit distinct in the same way as a mortal being?

>>50742999
Your magic would matter quite a bit.

>>50743023
>outbid
Probably. But you're assuming two things
>All mages will work for a literal evil
>Tiamat gets to have her horde in addition to the powers

>>50742999
Yeah and the Astral Realm in D&D is the background the Gods used to create the universe where many of them- Presumable including Tiamat- gain more power just by being there.
Apples and Oranges, which Astral do we use? Do we use both? Tiamat so happens to have this deal going on with a couple of Githyanki there.

Tiamat is just the draconic correspondence for the pantheistic/panentheistic principle variously known as Pan, Baphomet, Krishna, etc. "Fighting against Tiamat" is incoherent in this context. She's literally the mother of all good and evil. Like, Isaiah 45:7, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Do you even into real magick

>>50743034
The rules of SR universe?
I mean, you can powerwank all you want, but unless you establish some rules, we won't get anywhere.
>>50743053
Pretty much, the OP's question depends on a ot of factors he failed to specify.

>>50743046
Why would Lofwyr have access to whatever he can buy with his wealth while Tiamat wouldn't?

>>50742999
>>50743019
Right. Let's say that shaman wants to take on Zeus. How successful is he gonna be?

>>50743034
Exactly. Tiamat isn't just any deity too, she's THE deity of dragons. And you're putting her against a lowly dragon-spawn of hers. It doesn't matter how much money or connections he has in this case.

Only crap like Nicol Bolas is going to stand much chance.

>>50743084
> Right. Let's say that shaman wants to take on Zeus. How successful is he gonna be?
Depends on his preparations. He has a quite probable shot at it, though.

>>50743046
>>All mages will work for a literal evil
While Tiamat is factually evil in the D&D universe she does have obligations for the balances of power and blah blah blah. Basically there are Good Dragons, and specific good clerics that get to skirts the rules and work for her but do good. (No these have never been player options, but they still exist in lore).

Also. Scheming. Good or bad is totally irreverent. For both of them. They both scheme well enough to avoid that problem.

>>50743062
>I mean, you can powerwank all you want, but unless you establish some rules, we won't get anywhere.
But that's the issue right. If she has access to any of her vast divine powers and magic, she can just show up and eat Lofwyr.

She knows everything he's doing.

>>50743080
Because it was stated in the OP that Tiamat had the powers of a lesser god. Didn't say anything about the nigh endless wealth it possess separate of this power.

On the other hand it was explicitly stated that Lofwyr would have all of his resources at his disposal.

>>50743104
Still have the issue of people not wanting to work for Tiamat. Lofwyr will have mages that he employs or can convince to work with him for money. Lets not forget that he could also convince other dragons to help him out with all of his resources.

>>50743062
>The rules of SR universe?
Well, enlighten me of whatever bits of rules of the SR universe I have missed, for I still do not see why Tiamat would be any less powerful, or even defenseless, on SR's astral plane. Or are you implying she's not comparable to an awakened?

>>50743123
>Lets not forget that he could also convince other dragons to help him out with all of his resources.
So am I missing something, but can't Tiamat literally mind control dragons?

>>50743139
Is that a power it can have as a lesser deity? Or would that be restricted to "normal" divine status?

If Tiamat can have that power while restricted to "lesser deity" then I would say Lofwyr is absolutely fucked. All Tiamat would have to do in that case is recruit some of the other SR dragons via mind control.

>>50743123
>Because it was stated in the OP that Tiamat had the powers of a lesser god. Didn't say anything about the nigh endless wealth it possess separate of this power.
Even if demoted to lesser god, she would still have the endless wealth thing. It's part of her lore as queen of dragons. So is the divining knowledge of what many dragons are doing.

>>50743123
>Still have the issue of people not wanting to work for Tiamat.
That's like saying there are people that would not want to work for Lofwyr, just cause. Also even if there was that case, why would a few people not willing to work with her matter in the slightest? She could gate in a yes- infinite amount of high level followers that would even do it for free.
And I'm not talking about a 10th level cleric. Things like 20th level ex-PC wizard kobold.

>>50743162
>Is that a power it can have as a lesser deity? Or would that be restricted to "normal" divine status?
Nope, the gasps as far as mortals are concerned between Lesser, Intermediate, Greater, and even Overgod are nothing.
Those levels are just to state which god is more powerful than which other god. There are few abilities that a lesser or greater god would have but nothing that would be relevant to this fight.

>>50743123
So you're saying people in Shadowrun will work for Lofwyr but not for Tiamat. Whom they don't even known and has an history of beguiling and seducing mortals. And again, we aren't talking about knights from Noblebrightalot, but of people from Shadowrun.

It all boils to this: >>50742920
Tiamat vastly outclasses Lofwyr in every possible way. Everything Lofwyr can do on his own, she can do better. Everything Lofwyr can buy, she can buy a million more times. She has by herself means of extraplanar scrying and intervention, especially over dragonkind, and extraplanar transportation; she's a being of a higher order that trascends mortal limits; she has an actual loyal army of her own of uncountable dragons and dragonic minions from across multiple planes and can control other dragons as well. She doesn't even need to be there to pwn Lofwyr.

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Tiamat wins.

If you don't agree, you're either a fag, or a straight girl.

And since everyone knows, there are no girls on the internet, if you do not pick Tiamat, you're automatically a fag.

Fag.

>a god vs a dragon

It's like that scene in Rick and Morty with Man vs. Car.

Spoiler: the Car wins.

So, because apparently Tiamat is using the exact version necessary to have all the advantages, Tiamat wins, whereas Lofwyr is automatically a super loser who has his company bought out from under him by a giant five headed dragon who vomits gold at people in the hopes it does something helpful. And nothing that the 5th world throws at her does anything, even though the 5th world can regularly deal with horrific spirits of unimaginable power.

Good to know where the D&D-tards lay.

>>50745140
The 6th world can fight off all sorts of nasty shit in part because of dragons and other immortal beings with massive magical power. Such as Harlequin. I will be the first to sing his praises, Harlequin is one powerful motherfucker. But Tiamat mind controls all the dragons and the fight is between her and a dragon. I'm not sure Harlequin could fight against that, even if he wasn't busy keeping the Horrors at bay. It's kinda hard to beat someone when they can just mind control you and the majority of your most powerful assets.

>>50745265
Where is her "mind control all dragons always" coming from? Does that work on Good dragons as well? Dragons that are explicitly immune to mind control? Dragons that can say 'No' to any power as long as they can see the person using it?

>>50745140
What are you exactly whining about?

Should they fight one-on-one? Tiamat wins. She's a goddess, for crying out loud, and even without the inherent advantages from that, she's superior to Lofwyr physically and magically.

Is Lofwyr allowed to buy shit? Well, why wouldn't Tiamat be allowed to do the same? You may say that being rich and influential is one of Lofwyn's strengths, but her immense hoard is one of Tiamat's distinctive aspects too, so it makes no sense for him to be allowed to use his wealth to buy nukes and hire armies while Tiamat has to be just on her own despite being wealthier and a renowned schemer.

>whereas Lofwyr is automatically a super loser who has his company bought out from under him by a giant five headed dragon who vomits gold at people in the hopes it does something helpful
Why is it so hard to accept? How is Lofwyn's money better than Tiamat's? Also Tiamat can, and has been known to, assume human or elven shape. So even your retarded assumption that the people of SR would have some superior qualms about accepting money from any huge scaly monstrosty that isn't Lofwyn wouldn't change a thing.

>And nothing that the 5th world throws at her does anything,
We're not saying that nothing in the 5th world could hurt her. But the assumption that a single Shaman would be able to defeat Tiamat because 'Lol, Astral plane' that someone suggested earlier is, you'll admit, pretty idiotic. And it's not Tiamat vs the 5th world, it's Tiamat vs Lofwyn.

>even though the 5th world can regularly deal with horrific spirits of unimaginable power.
Yeah, because Tiamat clearly isn't an eternal transdimensional entity of unimaginable power, right? It's not like she's an incarnation of primal chaos and the sovereign of all evil dragons, right?

>>50745385
>Well, why wouldn't Tiamat be allowed to do the same?
So Tiamat becomes instantly aware of everything the 6th (and it is 6th, my bad, sorry) world has to offer, has all the connections to obtain these things instantly, and has a perfect understanding of what to do with them? While Lofwyr is left twiddling his thumbs completely unaware that a horrifically powerful extraplanar entity has entered the world, after his blood.

>Why is it so hard to accept?
John, head of accounting is approached by a supernaturally beautiful woman who begins speaking in beguiling tones. John, remembering the seminar the department had to take last year, presses his panic button. 47 seconds later, as John begins to nod his head in agreement with the woman, the room floods with gas, and John is rendered unconscious. The woman is seen approaching several other high ranking Saeder-Krupp personnel. She is put on a kill on sight list.

>And it's not Tiamat vs the 5th world, it's Tiamat vs Lofwyn.
Except it's not Tiamat vs Lofwyn, it's Tiamat vs Lofwyn and Saeder-Krupp, which has the power and resources of a largish nation.

>Yeah, because Tiamat clearly isn't an eternal transdimensional entity of unimaginable power, right?
You do realize that Great Dragons, and moderately well equipped Shadowrunners, have killed the Ancestor of All Spiders, a God-being whose name causes people to die, reanimate, and become its slaves, hive mind spirits that burrow into your soul, hollow you out, and then burst into psychic shrapnel that repeats the process all over again?

Shadowrun is a setting based around the idea that with a little knowledge and a big enough bomb, you can deal with most problems without a lot of difficulty. If you don't want Tiamat to follow those rules, then fine, there is no discussion.

This thread is exactly the same as arguing about anime power levels.

Exactly.

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>>50735893
That's a bet you'll lose then.

>>50745599
>So Tiamat becomes instantly aware of everything the 6th (and it is 6th, my bad, sorry) world has to offer, has all the connections to obtain these things instantly, and has a perfect understanding of what to do with them?
She's a schemer. She has extraplanar scrying. She has knowledge over all dragons. So I guess she has both the mindset and the abilities to go in well prepared for this fight.

>John, head of accounting is approached by a supernaturally beautiful woman [...]
Nice scene, but it still doesn't explain how Tiamat wouldn't be able to hire wizards and buy nukes just the same way as Lofwyr does. Because from how you're putting it it sounds like you can't buy anything in SR world unless you're Lofwyr. She can look human and has cash. She also has time, it's not like she has to buy nukes overnight.

>Except it's not Tiamat vs Lofwyn, it's Tiamat vs Lofwyn and Saeder-Krupp, which has the power and resources of a largish nation.
So? Tiamat has an entire plane and is queen of all dragons in, well, most D&D settings, which means a lot of planes. But you're still arguing that only Lofwyr's wealth and domains should be taken into account, despite Tiamat having greater of either.

>You do realize that Great Dragons, and moderately well equipped Shadowrunners, have killed the Ancestor of All Spiders, a God-being whose name causes people to die, reanimate, and become its slaves, hive mind spirits that burrow into your soul, hollow you out, and then burst into psychic shrapnel that repeats the process all over again?
Why do you think I've specified:
>it's not Tiamat vs the 5th world, it's Tiamat vs Lofwyn.
Both SR and D&D have pretty ridiculous upper-end stuff and Tiamat is one of these things. She's confronted with a being that is far inferior to her but that can compensate with wealth. But for the thousandth time, if that's a factor, Tiamat's just wealthier.

>>50745812
So, here's the real question. Is there anything in the 6th world that can actually harm Tiamat?
If someone drops a nuke on her, will she die?
If someone sends 1000 force 6 spirits after her all at once, will she be scratched?
If someone uses blood magic and binds her to a stone, will she be inconvenienced at all?

>>50742473
Yeah but....

Aren't those adventurers with swords and sorcery high enough level to be almost demigod-level of power?

>>50745852
>If someone drops a nuke on her, will she die?
Is it a mundane nuke or a magitek nuke? Her avatar is basically immune to non-divine/non-epic attacks, so I'm most sure she wouldn't be harmed by a mundane nuke, while the latter ... I'm not sure. Better question would be if the nuke is going to hit her at all, considering she can sense everything within 10 miles, has incredible reaction speed and some epic feats that basically allow her to cast spell outside the flow of time, there are time-stopping spell and she can just go ethereal/teleport away/jump to another plane with what is basically instantaneous spellcasting.
And if it *did* destroy her avatar, that would have been just that - an avatar, not the real being.

>If someone sends 1000 force 6 spirits after her all at once, will she be scratched?
Probably yes.

>If someone uses blood magic and binds her to a stone, will she be inconvenienced at all?
Probably not. Epic and divine resistance to magic and all of that. And there's the same problem you have with the nukes.

>>50745852
>>50745962
Big question, what if you brought the Horrors into play?

>>50738626
>Self respecting shadowrunners ever dealing with a dragon.

>>50745962
>Better question would be if the nuke is going to hit her at all, considering she can sense everything within 10 miles, has incredible reaction speed and some epic feats that basically allow her to cast spell outside the flow of time, there are time-stopping spell and she can just go ethereal/teleport away/jump to another plane with what is basically instantaneous spellcasting.
Where are you getting this information? Deities and Demigods? 5e? Faiths and Avatars?

>Magic Nuke
In Shadowrun, like most modern fantasy games, nuclear radiation is considered magic.

>Probably not. Epic and divine resistance to magic and all of that.
So her mind control won't work on Greater Dragons then, since they have an absolute no-sell on magic that would effect them, good to know.

>She's a schemer. She has extraplanar scrying. She has knowledge over all dragons.
Why can she sense alternate realities that use entirely different laws of magic and physics (not even "same system, different subrules" an entirely separate, the two do not connect anywhere system), travel to them at her leisure, and know exactly what happens across a world and in space?

>She can look human and has cash.
Where is she getting this access? You say she can enter into the Shadowrun universe with impunity, why doesn't she just cast Perfect Disintegration and destroy the world as a Standard action rather than scheme against a world that apparently has no protections against her at all?

>But you're still arguing that only Lofwyr's wealth and domains should be taken into account, despite Tiamat having greater of either.
Again, the argument is about Tiamat herself. If she can, in addition to moving to another universe on a whim, also move her entire horde, a few flights of evil dragons, and several civilizations worth of kobolds, why doesn't she just turn all the oxygen on earth in the Shadowrun universe to pudding?

>Why do you think I've specified:
Why didn't you answer the point under that?

>>50746190
Tiamat can pretty much just do whatever she wants to the SR universe. She is a goddess.

What can Lofwyr do in the D&D universe? Sell some uzis to dwarves? Sell some computers to a wizard? Get killed by some adventurers looking for epic loot?

Lofwyr would understand that, at best, his ability to resist Tiamat directly would be a delaying tactic. So he'd replace her current consort and manipulate her through seduction and influence instead.

>>50735798

Tiamat is a god, and a very very powerful god, and specifically the god OF dragons. Lofwyr is not, being just one of many Great Dragons in his setting.

So you can see, like most character battles, this is terribly unbalanced bullshit.

And like most battles, despite the outcome not really being up for debate (Tiamat would win without question under most circumstances) there is of course a bunch of people in this thread who will insist the much weaker character would win.

ITT:
>People who have played both shadowrun and D&D
>People who have only played shadowrun and have no sense of power scale
Tiamat no sells lofwyr.

>>50747938

This.

I am a 40kfag who came here because I like Shadowrun thou I only played the vidya and read some fluff online.

Now I weep because threads like this in 40k threads immiedately turn into shitstorm of spergs with arguments based on "mah headcanon is better than your headcanon" and "n u"

Fuck.

Anyway, on topic, my money is on Lowfyr too. Diety-level beings have been defeated in Shadowrun, and if something can be defeated Lowfyr has enough power to do it. If he can use his influence ofcrs.

Now

>>50735798
I'd try and set them up on a blind date.
That said: D&D magic and SR magic / Tech are not entirely incompatible, we just have to know what buffs / defenses each has running before they encounter each other,

>>50742533
Per 3.5 rules, D&D wizards actually have a spell that permits them to start acting *before* they cast the spell that permits them to act: Nerve skitter retroactively boosts their initiative and lets them go first in any conflict, even one they don't know is about to happen. As such: Sniper shoots, Bullet hi- no, wait, the wizard casts nerve skitter, he's now acting before the sniper, he casts (insert winning move here), Sniper down, wizard up, game to wizard.

>>50746190
not the guy youre replying to but
>So her mind control won't work on Greater Dragons then, since they have an absolute no-sell on magic that would effect them, good to know.
she's the god of dragons, i think it is only logical to assume that an ability inherent to being the god of dragons (which is the ability to mind control / mind read dragons), dragons cannot be immune to right? that's like common sense 101

>>50748048
I'd agree except for the whole "god of dragons" thing.

>>50748235
>Wizard rolls spot check to see the optically camouflaged Sniper.
>Rolls a 6
>Boom Headshot
>B-b-b-but mah Nerveskitter!

Cant cast a somatic spell if your head is gone.

I just checked Tiamat's stats from Deities and Demigods. She has +71 diplomacy and can take 10 on any action. also +71 intimidate. any free-willed person who has communicated with Tiamat can no longer be trusted to act on your behalf against her.

Guys, why are you arguing?

Timat is Horror-level.

Do you know what Lofwyr, aka Golden Master did when the Horrors came? He hid. Not like a bitch, mind you. He waited, and plotted, and schemed, but he couldn't 1v1 a Horror.

And Tiamat, as the Mother of Dragons, is basically Verjigorim.

>>50748661

because there are a bunch of faggots in this thread who only read Shadowrun and therefore have no concept of how powerful Tiamat is, and want their guy to win.

>>50746190
You're basically arguing that Tiamat couldn't enter the 6th world so the match can't happen.

ANd remember, we've always been considering the 6th world as the encounter's setting. It could be anywhere else, though, considering that thee Lofwyr is at an advantage. Everywhere else, and Tiamat stomps even more.

>>50739000
Seeing as how we've never nuked god, I dont think anyone here can say that wouldnt work. And if a hydrogen bomb cant sort tiamat out then nothing can and you have your answer.

>>50745852
Personally, I dont think their is any level of divine influence greater than the energy released in fusion. Its Pure as anything else you can compare it to. either that hurts tiamat or this conversation is intrinsically pointless.

>>50735798
>dragon versus thread
>sounds neat, what's going on in this thr-
>no Niv-Mizzet vs Tiamat
You all disappoint me.

>>50748378
That argument works until you realize "god of dnd dragons" is more accurate. Lofwyr doesnt care.

Ho boy, a battle of fictional characters thread. Gee, I do wonder who would win here? Could it possibly be the one that whoever writes the encounter wishes to win?

>>50753755
Googolplex of crows still wins every encounter, though.

so for some context on this, other than being a named npc, what would change if we removed lofwyr from sr and replaced him with literally any ancient wyrm from d&d? Is there anything that said replacement somehow could not accomplish given the same amount of time to create a power base?

>>50752813
>Lofwyr doesnt care.
That is kind of like saying that Lofwyr Money, Power, or influence doesn't effect creatures in the D&D world.

But it doesn't matter Lofwyr doesn't care. There are a good number of Dragons in the D&D world(s) that worship other Dragon gods, or even other NON Dragon gods, and plenty that don't worship anything at all but themselves.

But Tiamat still has Draconic Prescience and vaguely knows what all of them are up to. She is still literally (Proper use of the word) infinitely wealthy, and has the resources of thousands of worlds, not just one.

Also
>No restriction on D&D worlds?
Blam! Planescape, Spelljammer and any other high tech setting I'm forgetting about. Hell lets through in d20 Modern too. Tiamat now has access to Sci-fi laser weapons and technology far more advanced than anything shadowrun will have to offer.

More Money, More Influence, better tech even (Unless you guys want to handily cap that also), Physically and spiritually stronger. Oh and all that gods stuff too.

>>50739288
Oh don't be a dolt anon. Of course the devil needs help to defeat god!

>>50754984
>any other high tech setting I'm forgetting about.
Eberron? It has a connection to the rest of the multiverse via the World Serpent Inn.

>>50747758
>Tiamat is a god, and a very very powerful god, and specifically the god OF dragons
That's total bullshit even in D&D. You're forgetting about both Io (THE god of dragons) and Bahamut (god of good dragons).

Now if Io were the topic, I'd definitely say Lofwyr has no chance. But Tiamat isn't that powerful by a wide margin. And if she's as insanely powerful as people claim she is in this thread, there's literally no reason to even live in any D&D setting in which Tiamat is a presence. You should just toss your fucking character, because apparently Tiamat kills everything ever.

>>50746152
>Implying they're given a choice

>>50756892
You're retarded. Your arguments are literally "She loses because if she was this other stronger character she'd have won, but she isn't, so she loses", and "If she was this strong she'd own D&D universe", as if there weren't entire pantheons of other and even stronger deities to contend with. Just like, you know, Bahamuth and Io that you menioned yourself.

Come back with an argument or don't come back at all.

>>50757628
So, her dragon control power works on every dragon everywhere, no matter what protections they might have, if they are good or not, if they are a giant firebreathing lizard and not a dragon, etc?

>>50742881
Man spookytown must be a real shithole.

>>50757666
I'm not talking about dragon control. She doesn't need that, considering she's superior to Lowfyn in every possible way, from individual power to wealth to her being an entity of superior nature to mortals. She doesn't need an insta-win 'dragon control' button to own Lowfyn.

I was addressing how that post offerend absolutely no argument whatsoever, Satan.

>>50754984
Don't forget the actual fullblown space opera scifi modules for d20.

>>50758073
Oh, I see, this is the Tiamat who has an instant and perfect knowledge of everything in the 6th world before she enters the 6th world, as well as being immune to cruse missiles, a few thousand force 6 spirits being sent at her, or blood magic.

Good to know she's such a Mary Sue.

>>50758433
SHE'S A FUCKING GODDES FOR CRYING OUT LOUD

>>50758448
Is she aware of who can sell her a nuke before she enters into the 6th world? Is she aware of what a nuke is? Does she know how Shadowrun magic works? Does she have any easily transferable goods that can be converted to creds when she enters the 6th world?

>>50758448
He has a point. Lowfyr has an advantage of playing on his own turf. I doubt it will help in the long run, but in the short run - sure.

>>50758481
You're complaining that a goddess is a mary sue. ANd the contest is about who would win, not who makes a better-written character.

But again, yes, fuck, she has knowledge of everything concerning dragons everywhere. D&D spellcasters can scry from whole other planes and she's an epic level spellcaster, even if we don't consider how she would have an inherent degree of trascendental knowledge on how things work on a plan and what happens there, considering she IS a trascendental extra/multiplanar entity (Gods exist in multiple planes while 'residing' on their own planes).

So yes, if she's about to face someone from the 6th world she knows 6th world magic and technology and the technicolor rainbow inbetween, and whatever Lofwyr is up to.

She has quadrillions worth of gold coins, gems, artifacts and other treasures. If she needed fast cash she could probably just sell a huge diamond for the price of a small nation.

Lastly, for the whole thread all Lofwyr fanboys have been working under the assumption that the battle is going to happen in the 6th world, which inherently benefits Lofwyr.

>>50758571
Yes, the issue is all the people who have only played D&D and never looked at Shadowrun splurging all over their dragon waifu.
7 times out of 10, Tiamat is going to win, but it's very dependent on the setup and what happens when the two combatants are made aware of each other.

If it was: A portal opens in the Shadowrun and whatever universe Tiamat is using, both leading to an infinite, flat plain, and Tiamat and Lowfyr are both made aware of an enemy that they must kill that they recognize on sight.
Tiamat, being Tiamat, enters through her portal and begins scrying/other shit.
Lowfyr sends troops, engineers, and magicians to scout. The mages immediately detect Tiamat's astral signature, since she is an all powerful goddess, etc. Lowfyr has a couples drones fire at her. Tiamat either survives/detects and avoids it/whatever, or she dies. If she lives, they send a couple thousand force 6 spirits after her. If she survives, they send a drone with a medium yield nuke. If she survives, they use blood magic. If she survives, then literally nothing in the 6th world can touch her and they probably consider her a Horror, meaning that Dunkelzahn's sacrifice was in vain, and the Great Dragons begin pondering how to kill off most sapient life on Earth in a hurry.
Tiamat wins through, either Scry and Die Lofwyr or mass extinction of the human race.

>>50758481
Yeah, she's a Goddess. Divine powers come with the package.

>>50758799
>Yes, the issue is all the people who have only played D&D and never looked at Shadowrun splurging all over their dragon waifu.
Blood magic, insect spirits and assorted astral plane fuckery don't seem that impressing against a multiplanar divine entity that isn't made of a mortal body and a mortal soul. Neither do nukes.
From what I see it's more of a case of 'muh special snowflake smart dragon sempai husbando from muh special snowflake setting can't be beaten by old shitty D&D!'
Yeah, Shadowrun has a compelling setting and all that, but Tiamat is just on a superior power level than Lofwyr.

Also,
>Tiamat enters through the portal alone and unprepared
>Lofwyr sends everything the 6th world has to offer through the portal before even considering entering
You can see how stupidly biased this is, right?

Also, am I the only one under the impression that there's only one samefag defending Lofwyr over and over? Considering that every post in his favor has his name mispelled in the exact same way.

>>50759022
Doubtful. I was defending him at first until I went an read up on all of Tiamats powers.

Besides, it's pretty damn easy to misspell. I know I fucked it up a couple times.

>>50759022
>>50758799
Wait, no, sorry, I was misproven. Sorry about that.

>>50758920
When did Tiamat become a god of Knowledge? I thought only very powerful gods came even close to omniscience?

>>50758952
Do you know what blood magic can do? Any idea why the 6th world is absolutely terrified of it? Again, if nothing the 6th world can throw at her touches her, then there is no discussion, it's just fanwank about your perfect dragon waifu. You can make counterclaims about Lofwyr all you want, but you are the one saying that things shown to be effective against minor Horrors, things that can warp, corrupt, and kill gods in the Earthdawn setting (which is Shadowrun's fantasy precursor) are useless against an lesser deity.

>You can see how stupidly biased this is, right?
That's the framework set in place by the OP though. I will still freely admit that Tiamat wins 7/10 times, but Tiamat gets deity, Lofwyr gets Saeder-Krupp.

If Lowfyr doesn't get Saeder-Krupp and it becomes a 1-vs-1 brawl, then it's a fight that lasts maybe a minute, primarily because Greater Dragons can no-sell a certain number of effects against them. Once that runs out, he's as dead as a doornail.

>>50759022
I've been posting somewhat frequently, but other people interject here and there. Also, OP misspelled it, so that probably contributed to the confusion.

>>50759152
>When did Tiamat become a god of Knowledge? I thought only very powerful gods came even close to omniscience?
She has near omniscience of all things dragons. Lowfyr is a dragon. Even without that, gods can see and influence what happens in planes without having to use an avatar, that's pretty much how they work.

>Do you know what blood magic can do?
Yeah, kill people through the blood of relatives. Deities don't have blood. They don't have mortal bodies. They're not mortal. They can be destroyed but that's an entirely different thing and you can't hope to get to that with some voodoo.
>Any idea why the 6th world is absolutely terrified of it?
I'm assuming the vast majority of the 6th world is made of mortals with mortal bodies and mortal soul.
>Again, if nothing the 6th world can throw at her touches her, then there is no discussion
It's not 'everything in the 6th world'. Spirits, astral plane attacks, possibly magitek weapons can hurt her avatar and possibly even her godly form. But people have argued that a single Shaman or insect spirit would be able to kil her, and you yourself are implying blood magic could kill her, and that makes no sense at all.
>That's the framework set in place by the OP though. I will still freely admit that Tiamat wins 7/10 times, but Tiamat gets deity, Lofwyr gets Saeder-Krupp.
Yes, and you know what would be a more reasonable setup?
Portals open. Lowfyr sends in a drone. Tiamat sends in a dragon. Eventually the dragon is taken down. Lowfyr sends in hundreds of drones and spirits. Tiamats sends in an increasing number of dragons and spawns as she gets more and more pissed off. I'm pretty sure Lowfyr runs out of money to spend on ammo before Tiamat runs out of dragon.

>>50758799
How about this instead?
>Lofwyr and Tiamat know they have to kill each other. Lofwyr in in the 6th world. Tiamat is in her plane.
>Lofwyr has to engage a bunch of people to even try and scry where in heavens Tiamat could be. She's on a divine plane of her own where she can change the laws of physics and magic.
>Meanwhile
>A mysterious, beautiful woman shows up at some runners' homeplace. She has a job and a lot of gold to pay.
>She repeats with about 100 or 1000 groups of runners
>She hires some azzies too
>All those speshul magitek weapons / blood magic / astral plane fuckery you assumed would be effective against Tiamat will now be used against Lofwyr

>>50759534
>Yeah, kill people through the blood of relatives. Deities don't have blood. They don't have mortal bodies. They're not mortal. They can be destroyed but that's an entirely different thing and you can't hope to get to that with some voodoo.
...Blood magic allows one to sacrifice anything living, but especially sentients, to make their magic orders of magnitude more powerful. Like, create self-perpetuating blood elementals that can not be killed until a time limit is reached, that limit increasing whenever they get new blood. Like causing an entire civilization of elves to sprout thorns through their skin, putting them in perpetual agony for centuries. Like pulling a moon from the sky and bringing it down on a continent, as well as mitigating any other problems associated with bringing a moon down on something, like tidal waves, tides shifting, or tectonic activity.

>It's not 'everything in the 6th world'. Spirits, astral plane attacks, possibly magitek weapons can hurt her avatar and possibly even her godly form. But people have argued that a single Shaman or insect spirit would be able to kil her, and you yourself are implying blood magic could kill her, and that makes no sense at all.
If you don't know anything about how the 6th world works, where radiation is an innate form of magic, thus making nukes 'magitek,' where a cruise missile will kill or severely cripple a powerful spirit, then it becomes clear that this is less a matter of fan wank and more a matter of different things being important to us.
If Tiamat doesn't work like an extremely powerful dual natured spirit would in Shadowrun, if she works on some entirely different context or scale, then there is no discussion to be had, because you are basically saying "Nothing you are saying would work because I don't know anything about it."

>>50759534
Blood magic doesn't necessarily require the blood of your target or their family. It just makes it require fewer sacrifices.

IIRC when Az killed a dragon they used a super powerful artifact, the blood of the dragon, and sacrificed something like a thousand people. That was just to nullify the dragons magic so their fancy dragon killing magitek would work.

>>50759770
And again, how does Tiamat apparently instantly know everything there is to know about the 6th world? People keep on saying that she knows everything about all the dragons everywhere forever, but amazingly enough, not everything in Shadowrun is based around dragons. They are important to the setting, but not integral.

Plus, she doesn't have Knowledge in her portfolio, does she?

You are essentially saying that Tiamat is so Mary Sue that she acts five steps ahead of everyone because obviously she's the bestest goddess of dragons ever. There's no reason or context for her being aware the Shadowrun universe exists.
And something as powerful as Tiamat entering into the 6th world would have alarms going off everywhere.

>>50759817
>...Blood magic allows one to sacrifice anything living,[...].
Sure. And if Lofwyr can easily afford a blood magic ritual powerful enough to take down Tiamat, how is it that Horrors are a non-trivial threat? Tiamat is pretty much Verjigorm-tier.
>radiation is an innate form of magic
In D&D many creatures immune to physical damage are still subsceptible to pretty physical energy sources such as fire, which is considered to be supernatural in nature. A deity's avatar is immune, or almost so, to everything that is not epic or divine in nature. This without counting that Tiamat's avatar has magical abilities sufficient to stop time and teleport to another plane before she has to discover wheter she's immune to nukes or not. And yes, her avatar has rules-wise perfect sensorial perception of everything within 10 miles, she can cast spells in a way that acts against the flow of times so that they affect something before it happens while she theoretically casts it after it happened, and has some pretty godly initiative. Nukes aren't something she has to be concerned about.
And the post you're answering to stated that these weapon CAN hurt her, so you're arguing over nothing.

>>50759866
>And again, how does Tiamat apparently instantly know everything there is to know about the 6th world?
She's a deity. She observes planes from outside because that's what gods do and how they work in D&D. Even if we're going by the lowest standards of 'she knows at least a bit about all dragons, on a collective scale', she's aware of the 6th world because there's dragon in them, and she's aware on how things work there because those things affect those dragons.
And that's ignoring the fact that as a deity she has inherent knowledge of planes.
And even if she hasn't, she has +100something Knowledge (Planes), so if she were a character the thing would go "Hey Anon, now you have to kill a certain Lofwyr from a plane called 6th World!" "Oh, nice! I make a Knowledge check and take 10, how is that place?" "Well, inflation has been pretty rough in the US and it's being a very dry summer..."

>There's no reason or context for her being aware the Shadowrun universe exists.
Yeah, let's not have this fight at all then.

>And something as powerful as Tiamat entering into the 6th world would have alarms going off everywhere.
She doesn't have to 'enter'. And even if she did, this isn't Tiamat vs 6th world, it's Tiamat vs Lofwyr.

>>50760084
>Sure. And if Lofwyr can easily afford a blood magic ritual powerful enough to take down Tiamat, how is it that Horrors are a non-trivial threat? Tiamat is pretty much Verjigorm-tier.
Horrors warp reality and eat gods. In D&D terms, Horrors are greater Elder Evil levels of powerful, because in Earthdawn cannon, a medium tier Horror managed to find, scare, make flee, and eventually subvert and control the Passion of Swords, a pretty powerful god. And this was as the Horrors powers were lessening. If the fight was Tiamat vs. anything but the least powerful Horror, the Horror would be using Tiamat as a dishrag in moments.

>And the post you're answering to stated that these weapon CAN hurt her, so you're arguing over nothing.
They stipulated that "Well, it might, kind of, but probably not because I don't know anything about Shadowrun."
If things that effect spirits, especially incredibly powerful spirits, don't effect Tiamat, then there is nothing to discuss, since at least one of the Principles Shadowrun runs off of is that everyone and everything can be killed with enough C4. If Tiamat can't be killed with a metric fuckton of mundane, non-magical C4 while in the Shadowrun universe, then we have nothing to talk about.

>>50760238
>And even if she hasn't, she has +100something Knowledge (Planes)
And now we get into the power creep.
What statblock has her Knowledge (Planes) at 100+?
I can get you stats for Lofwyr, with a bit of fudging since they are from an older edition.

>>50760304
Stats from the books cannot be considered the actual stats of beings such as Dragons or the Immortal elves. This is because they are so fuck all powerful that any stats in game are simply a representation of how much power they felt like using at that time.

tl;dr A high enough level mage is effectively a god and all dragons in Shadowrun are VERY high level mages

>>50760371
So Tiamat has any and all stats she needs at 100+, along with every piece of information about the Shadowrun universe she would care to know, but Lofwyr can't possibly hold a candle to her, because she's just so much more super special, right?

>>50760245
>Horrors warp reality and eat gods.
Dude, D&D epic wizards warp reality and kill gods. And Tiamat is pretty high-tier among gods.
On the other hand, Passions are not at all comparable with D&D gods. D&D deities are supreme entities that exist outside of, and across multiple, mortal planes. They can create planes of their own, races, worlds, and shape reality. Passions are created by mortals.
Horrors are Elder Evils? In D&D, Elder Evils aren't as powerful as gods.

>at least one of the Principles Shadowrun runs off of is that everyone and everything can be killed with enough C4. If Tiamat can't be killed with a metric fuckton of mundane, non-magical C4 while in the Shadowrun universe, then we have nothing to talk about.
Then we have nothing to talk about since deities don't work that way in D&D. You can't harm them with a fireball and thus you wouldn't have more luck with one million wizards casting maximized fireballs since none of them would be harming her.
But again, for the thousandth time. There's plenty of non-mundane ways the 6th has to deal with her. None of these is trivial and none of these overshadows the fact that it's much easier for her, by her means, to defeat Lofwyr than for Lofwyr to defeat her by his means.
I'm not saying she can solo the 6th world, but that's not what the OP said.

Two things.

1. Tiamat has never been a lesser deity. She's always been a major player in divine affairs since even her first appearance in D&D.

2. What is considered "winning" in this scenario? If the goal is to kill each other, Lofwyr loses before the fight even starts. Tiamat is explicitly immortal.

>>50760371
That's because Shadowrun PCs don't have the same absurd levels of character growth as D&D PCs.

>>50760479
I was talking about Shadowrun dragons genius.

>>50760560
I assume you mean the scale in power, such as level 30 PCs in D&D being near gods. In which case you are absolutely correct. Even the most Billy Badass metahuman mage cannot hold a candle to the power of the Immortal Elves and Great Dragons.

Oh, almost forgot. Lofwyr is the Loremaster. Meaning he, supposedly, has the accumulated knowledge of the dragons in Shadowrun and back into time immemorial.

>>50760707
Yeah, that's what I meant. You have stats for epic, god-tier beings in D&D because you're eventually going to be fighting on par with them. You don't have the same in Shadowrun because characters are never going to go that far, and if they're ever going to blow up a dragon, it's not through their individual combat skill but through plot moves like getting a nuke dropped on them.

>>50760498
>>50760532
>And Tiamat is pretty high-tier among gods.
Tiamat is at best an intermediate god, who gets regularly kicked around by any other god who cares to. She doesn't even have a plane to call her own.

>D&D deities are supreme entities that exist outside of, and across multiple, mortal planes.
So how does that work in settings where they are explicitly created by mortals? Again, the Tiamat you are using seems to be awfully "Whatever version I need, when I need it."

>Horrors are Elder Evils?
Elder Evils have killed Greater Gods in some settings, so I... Yes.

>There's plenty of non-mundane ways the 6th has to deal with her.
Yes, her "I know everything about everything I need to know about at the exact time I need to know it, but it's because I'm the exact version of Tiamat needed to deal with whatever situation is presented. What version is it? Oh, you don't need to know that, that's not important, let me remind you that Tiamat is the most powerful deity, and can mindrape all the dragons until that was proven false, so instead she can go into the 6th world and find exactly what she needs to beat Lofwyr, except when that plan doesn't work, so she never leaves her plane and something?, except that she doesn't have one." Her.
Every time something that can hurt her comes up, it's either shot down instantly as either "I don't know anything about Shadowrun" or "Tiamat can just buy a nuke and put it in Lofwyr's toilet!"
If Tiamat works off of entirely different physics than anything else in the Shadowrun universe, and can't be harmed by anything non-magical (beyond the fact that everything in the Shadowrun universe has a magical presence), then Tiamat wins because she doesn't even have to fight, she can just wait until Lowfyr dies of old age.

>>50760532
I assume it would be kill Tiamat's Avatar vs Lofwyr dies.

>>50760707
>I was talking about Shadowrun dragons genius.
I know, I'm still waiting to know which Tiamat we are talking about.

>>50748456
Nope, magic makes it happen retroactively. Shit's magic.

>>50760797
>Tiamat
Fuck if I know anymore. I was just pointing out that there is no hard rules for Shadowrun dragons. Hell, fuckers might even be able to teleport (one of the few things you CANNOT do in Shadowrun is manipulate time/space continuum).

>>50760797
>Tiamat is at best an intermediate god, who gets regularly kicked around by any other god who cares to. She doesn't even have a plane to call her own.
Yeah, no. She has her plane and depending on the edition she's sometimes one of the biggest evil and chaotic deities around. You don't know what you're talking about, I guess.

>So how does that work in settings where they are explicitly created by mortals? Again, the Tiamat you are using seems to be awfully "Whatever version I need, when I need it."
Shadowrun have plane-bound entities that are projected by mortals and considered akin to gods. D&D has eternal extraplanar entities that can create planes and species and change reality. If one of them enters the 6th world, it is more comparable to respectable-to-high tier Horrors than to Passions. Just because Shadowrun have Passions that work as gods doesn't mean that D&D gods, that are beings of much greater orders, should be translated into Passions in this scenario.

>[THat whole other wall of sperg]
You're just embarassing yourself, whining because a god is more powerful than your pet dragon.
Those here that sustain TIamat have already acknowledged that she's not immune to what the 6th world can throw at her, but also that she's far from a trivial target to eliminate.
We've explained why fluff-wise and crunch-wise she's not going to be one-shot by a nuke and why she has enough immediate knowledge of whatever plane she's going to deal with to at least understand the power level of the 6th world and act accordingly - which means gather more information if necessary and then devise a plan.
You can't pretend to have a point when you're just buttmad because we're not assuming Tiamat will go to this fight unprepared and unaware while Lofwyr has the entirety of the 6th world arsenal to back him up.

>>50761002
>Yeah, no. She has her plane and depending on the edition she's sometimes one of the biggest evil and chaotic deities around. You don't know what you're talking about, I guess.
In what edition are we talking about? What book? We've gotten a little closer to figuring out which version of Tiamat we are dealing with here, it's not the generic 3rd or 3.5 version, it's not the Eberron version, not the 2e Planescape version, not the 5th version, not the 3rd or 4th Forgotten Realms version. A little more and I might even get BINGO.

>Shadowrun have plane-bound entities that are projected by mortals and considered akin to gods.
That's not how Shadowrun/Earthdawn works at all.
Passions reshape their own worlds easily, and as magic increases can shape the material world with a bit more difficulty, depending on the Passion. That's Earthdawn.

>We've explained why fluff-wise and crunch-wise she's not going to be one-shot by a nuke
No, you haven't. You've repeated "SHE'S A GOD!" endless times, but when presented with the fact that in Shadowrun, nukes are magic, it becomes "Well shes a god, so she puts a nuke in Lofwyr's toilet."
Tiamat either gets infinite knowledge of the 6th world and infinite prep-time while in the 6th world, without taking into account that the mages can detect massive spiritual entities entering the plane, and Lofwyr, owning a multinational company, having access to at least one of these (which is, I will admit, something of a chicken and egg concept, but if not then it defaults to GG, Tiamat lets Lofwyr die of old age), or we have a portal to a flat, featureless plain, where Lofwyr sends some airstrikes, and if those, and the follow up spirits don't kill her, he most likely dies.

>entirety of the 6th world arsenal to back him up.
Tiamat can use Shadowrunners and her fantastic wealth, but Lofwyr can't?

>Buttmad
This is fun.

>>50758481
>she aware of who can sell her a nuke before she enters into the 6th world?

Sure, Epic Level Divination magic.

>>50759866
>They are important to the setting, but not integral.

Yes they are because when you do the right thing in that one Computer game and kill them all it gives you a bad end because they want it to be a bad thing to kill dragons but there's no practical or foreseeable reason it would be bad.

>>50761381
Look, I'm tired of this argument. You're clearly not reading what I write.

Passions in Shadowrun are projected by mortals and while powerful they're not beings of the same scope of D&D deities. So your point that mid-tier Horrors can easily mindrape Passions isn't all that impressive in perspective. What I'm trying to say is that a D&D deity is closer to moderately high tier Horrors in power than to Passions, if we have to make this comparison.

When presented with the fact that in Shadowrun nukes are magic I've replied that in D&D fire is magic and yes, magic is magic, and divine avatars are immune or immensely resistant to damage that isn't divine or epic in nature, and magic doesn't intrinsecally mean divine. A magic missile (the spell) is magic and it's not going to hurt a deity. So saying 'it's magic' doesn't intrinsecally mean it's going to hurt her. We have although acknowledged it is probably going to hurt her, but you keep ignoring it. I've explained several times how it's not going to HIT her, but you've ignored that too.

Personally, all the times I've spoken of knowledge of the 6th world I've said that she's bound to know at least roughly how things work there. 'She's a god' isn't a hollow argument. Gods in D&D are outside mortal planes and spectate them from outside. They have intrinsec knowledge of such planes. This is also represented crunch-wise by her impressive Knowledge (Planes) skill, which serves for this specific purpose.
I never mentioned infinite preparation time. But given the intel advantage of a superior scrying system and a privileged position (she's in her own plane that she controls), time is in her favour.
She doesn't need to enter the 6th world and we've never said the arena is going to be in the 6th world. [Continued]

>>50748456
Foresight, so he can't be caught flat-footed.
Celerity, so he retroactively acts before the sniper pulls the trigger.
Or the wizard could have a Contingency spell. Or even multiple contingent spells, with Craft Contingent Spell feat. Or he could just ignore the headshot, because he has enough HP to survive a sozen headshots.
DnD wizards are almost unbeatable.

>>50761702
[Continued]
>we've never said the arena is going to be in the 6th world.
But if it is, she can send minor simulachrums of herself or minions from her endless followers there through portal spells with enough gold and diamonds to hire runners, azzies or whatever else to kill Lofwyr. And I'm going this path because A) she's a manipulative schemer that tends to act through pawns and agents rather than invading planes by force (and that's how almost all gods in D&D act out their plans) and B) that's how you're assuming Lofwyr can kill Tiamat.
She's the one with the advantage in mobility, position, intel, and wealth. If you're taking azzies, runners and shamans in account because 'everything can be taken down in Shadowrun if you drop a big enough bomb on it', then why wouldn't Tiamat be able to use them too? She can send perfectly human and uncospicuous agents to hire people, after all.

>or we have a portal to a flat, featureless plain, where Lofwyr sends some airstrikes, and if those, and the follow up spirits don't kill her, he most likely dies.
Again, this scenario is biased and you refuse to acknowledge it. You're assuming Tiamat enter this plain like an idiot while Lofwyr sends airstrikes and spirits from far away while being out of her reach. Your scenario is 'Tiamat is locked in a plane where she can't do anything and Lofwyr throws shit at her until she dies'.

>Tiamat can use Shadowrunners and her fantastic wealth, but Lofwyr can't?
That's not what I was saying. I was saying, and it was pretty clear, that it's not 'TIamat alone vs. the entirety of the 6th world'. Sure, Lofwyr can use his fantastic wealth and hire runners. THey've got to reach Tiamat's personal plane and confront her there, where she can alter the laws of physics and magic as she pleases. Meanwhile, they have to outrun the competition of potentially a lot more runners going to take care of Lofwyr. .

>>50758057
Well, it depends where you go.

This thread is some peak autism

>>50761381

>desperately avoiding a direct comparison to Tiamat

You can stop being a faggot any time now. Use 3.0 Deities and Demigods Tiamat. I don't know if Lofwyr is statted anywhere, but Great Dragons just aren't on the same level as Lesser Dieties, and Tiamat is pretty beastly for one.

And if you read her entry, you'll notice that she's unfathomably more powerful than Lofwyr. Part of this is because magic is 100x stronger in DND than Shadowrun. Tiamat, in addition to being possessed of great physical and divine power, casts a 20th level arcane and divine caster. She can Time Stop as spell like ability and can Improved Teleport and Plane Shift at will, combined with 10 mile blindsight, guaranteeing that no nuke could possibly threaten her, even if it could hurt her. She wouldn't even need to prepare, but if she decided to do so, she has the advantage (as DND magic is far stronger in that regard and she has spells that block magical spying).

In fact, that the moment she entered the 6th world (I can't imagine Lofwyr going to her) she could time stop, locate creature, teleport to Lofwyr and then decimate him when it ended, long before he could launch any nukes.

It's not a fair contest at all.

>>50761964
Actually it's pretty interesting. It gives us a confrontation between settings and systems with very different philosophies - in Shadowrun your PC is never going to be much more than a glorified thug, but the actual upper scale of powers is quite epic and despite it you can take down anything with a bomb large enough. In D&D divine and transcendental entities are even more present and they're supposedly untouchable by lesser beings, but at the same time PCs can grow to such peaks of power to be able to confront godlike enemies with their forces alone.

It's also been quite civil and thoroughly argumented thus far, for the most part.

>>50738626
Don't forget that shadowrunners are also effectively disposable, so unless he starts blowing through a WHOLE LOT of experienced teams real fast he'll always have something to throw at tiamat as roadblocks.

>>50761702
>>50761860
I am reading what you write, we've just been going around in circles ignoring each other for the last 4 or 5 posts each.
If she gets to use everything across all the planes that she owns and controls, then again, no use actually fighting Lofwyr, might as well just take a nap for a few millennia and will win through attrition, but then again, those were not the rules of the contest, the contest is Tiamat, with all the benefits of a lesser deity, Vs. Lofwyr with the pull and influence of Saeder-Krupp. If her ‘benefits’ includes every single cultist and evil dragon in every D&D setting that has Tiamat in it, as you are saying, then she wins, congratulations, you used a planet buster to kill an ameba.
That’s not very interesting, so if you don’t want to ‘win’ the discussion outright, you can keep reading.

If Tiamat instead only gets herself, her horde/treasure, and her lesser deity benefits, then we need to determine both what version of Tiamat we are using (since you refuse to answer that), if she gets to know everything about the Shadowrun universe, if she can be effected like other beings in the Shadowrun universe, and where this contest is taking place.
Now, if Tiamat knows everything about Shadowrun, including every type of drone, how to counter their magic, how to defend against Blood Magic, how to hide her Astral Signature, how to present a false Astral Signature, where to find runners of any quality, how to exchange gold/gems/piles of dragon shit for money without popping up on any watch lists, what nukes look/sense like, how to defend against summoned spirits, all the different types of spirits and their strengths and weaknesses, and how to get around Astral Walls, then she wins. If instead we don’t give her every advantage because we repeatedly scream “She’s a god,” then any one of these things would trip her up and make killing Lofwyr much more difficult and less painless for her.
[Con]

>>50762962
As I have said repeatedly, if Tiamat uses an entirely different system than Shadowrun, then Tiamat wins because she can just wait until Lofwyr dies of old age. If she uses the same physics as Shadowrun, then a medium sized nuke will kill her, because unless it doesn't go off, it kills everything in the 6th world unless it's a toxic spirit. If a nuke doesn't kill her on a direct hit, then revert to A.
If she stays on her home plane, she's not running on Shadowrun rules, which means she doesn't need to send anyone or anything after Lofwyr, because they can't get to her anyway, because beings in Shadowrun can only go to other planes as disembodied spirits, because you have repeatedly shown an obvious lack of interest in anything related to Shadowrun.

>Your scenario is 'Tiamat is locked in a plane where she can't do anything and Lofwyr throws shit at her until she dies'.
And now you are putting words in my mouth. It's never been Lofwyr getting as many hits on her as he wants, it's been Tiamat being unaware of what a drone is, getting hit with a few JDAM's or whatever, and either being pasted because major spirits die in Shadowrun from overwhelming physical damage, or being wounded/hurt but not killed, or being miffed and going for Lofwyr, who drops a nuke on her, and again, either dies because she isn't omniscient, or is unperturbed and spends 45 seconds chasing Lofwyr around before his 'can't touch this' luck runs out. Then she kills him in a grisly manner.

If it becomes Tiamat sending simulacrums through portals, then do they as Astral Signatures? Because no means someone in the 6th world is going to be very, very concerned, and they will most likely have a difficult/bad time. But again, if she's on another plane, then Tiamat wins because Lofwyr dies of old age.

>>50761981
Holy fucking shit, we have actual anything. Yes, Lofwyr has stats, in a few different places. Dragons of the Sixth World and Street Legends.
[Con]

>>50762988
So, Tiamat is a Lesser Deity, doesn’t have access to epic spells, and can pass a DC 61 Knowledge: Planes Check. I honestly don’t know what DC knowing information about other material planes would be, but if we go by the Near Impossible, she would know at least 4 things about the Shadowrun universe, which doesn’t really make a lot of sense, but she probably doesn’t a huge amount.
She doesn’t know everything about the Shadowrun universe because of her connection to dragons either, because 1. There aren’t that many dragons in the Shadowrun universe, and 2. They are not all Evil.
Now, on to magic in D&D being more powerful. Magic in D&D is more broadly useful, yes, but some things share similarities. Both have anti-scrying magic, so I’m going to assume Tiamat can’t just find Lofwyr though Locate Creature (though how does she how what his name is? I thought at least one premise was that they simply knew they had an enemy that was identifiable on sight?), and while Shadowrun doesn’t have that level of divination, I’m going to assume she has the same benefit.
So Tiamat enters into the Shadowrun universe or a non-descript Other Plane, since we have established that if she doesn’t enter into somewhere that is physically reachable she wins, does not immediately find her target, and instead goes after the nearest person to try and figure out where she is, what her target is, and how to establish a powerbase. The 6th world reacts in fear and horror as Diviners bleed from their eyes and magic sensing instruments shatter abruptly.
[Con]

>>50763006
From here it becomes a question of who figures out the other one first, and in Lofwyr’s case, what measures is he willing to go to kill. Lofwyr has the advantage at this stage, since he has access to a worldwide security system, at least in parts. Since both can shapeshift, we will be assuming that their disguises can be seen through by the other, and to speed things along, that any active feed will do. So if Tiamat sees a news conference where Lofwyr talks about his new line of underwear, she knows who her target is, but if Lofwyr sees a CCTV picture of her, it doesn’t work.
Tiamat, being SINless, has a difficult time in the 6th world until she finds a fixer willing to trade gold coins for a background. She becomes the daughter of an A accountant who needs to clear some debt fast. Lofwyr marshals his forces and in his compacity as Loremaster for the draconic race, tries to figure out what the fuck just happened.
If Tiamat finds Lofwyr first, then unless Lofwyr is somewhere extremely advantageous, like with another dragon, on a warship during active drills, he dies horribly and Tiamat returns to wherever, triumphant.
If Lofwyr finds her first, then it becomes a question of whether she has managed to hide her astral form, so he knows how much force to bring to bear, can he successfully draw her out of a populated area so that way his reputation doesn’t take a hit by calling in an airstrike on downtown wherever, and will his first, or second, strike kill her. If she doesn’t die the first time, there is a slight chance that he will get another chance, but I’m not counting on it.
If this is in Other Plane, then it goes as stated previously. Either she dies to repeated drone/spirit strikes, or she doesn’t and kills Lofwyr horribly.

>>50762633
Why thank you, I know I am enjoying myself.

[END]

>>50761643
The dragons help defend from the Horrors.

That said, there supposedly isn't anyway to stop the Horrors. They'll come eventually, all we can do is delay the inevitable.

>>50761702
>divine magic
Would Mana damage type count as divine? It's the closest I can think of. For those who don't know, Shadowrun has Mana and Physical damage types for their spells. Only Mana can hit shit like spirits.

>>507619814
>>50762988
Lofwyr has stats but >>50760371
So we actually have no clue how powerful he is or what he is capable of. Especially considering the whole "Loremaster" thing, which means he supposedly has the accumulated knowledge of all dragons, past and present, in the Shadowrun universe.

>>50763006
Off the top of my head, Shadowrun has spells allowing you to see creatures and to identify those that mean to hurt you. All spells in Shadowrun work regardless of distance BUT you must be able to see them in real time. The whole "diviners bleed from their eyes" bit is probably bullshit. Since she is certainly viewable in the Astral, you'll probably get some pants shitting from most parties. Depending on how she looks (in the astral) they'll either go "OH FUCK IT'S A DRAGON! I'M LEAVING, PLEAS DON'T EAT ME!" and leave, or it'll be "OH HOLY FUCK IT'S SOMETHING EVIL! ALERT THE WORLD! THE HORRORS ARE COMING!". That is assuming she can't suppress or otherwise modify her aura. If she can, then she just needs to be sneaky enough to do so (and she probably is).

>>50763022
Tiamat-anon you've been debating with most of the time, reporting.
It's pretty late here so I can't offer a full reply right now. I reckon your analysis is pretty sensible and I hope I'll find the thread still alive when I wake up to answer.
It's been fun anyway.

>>50763397
>The dragons help defend from the Horrors.
>That said, there supposedly isn't anyway to stop the Horrors. They'll come eventually, all we can do is delay the inevitable.

Which is just stupid. There is no reasonable or logical reason to not kill all the dragons, so they make a rocks fall everyone dies badness behind it all. The fact that they couldn't have a logical and connected negative consequence just shows how worthlessly bad the dragons are.

>>50735798
Never, EVER bet against Lofwyr.

>>50764990
Well they kinda do have a negative consequence. If it weren't for ol' Dunkelzahn sacrificing himself the Horrors would already be butt fucking everything in the 6th world. Now that they have dragon killing tech, which is notable more for the fact they have guns that work on magical shit like spirits now, they might have a chance to fight off the Horrors. But if they had come early, then they wouldn't have that tech. The 6th world would be dead. Well, mostly dead. The Horrors have supposedly come since time immemorial every time the mana level gets high enough (specifically when it peaks).

Reminds me of the Reapers from Mass Effect. Hell, they act in a similar manner.

>>50742965
So SR is basically forgotten realms tier magic?

>>50765204
I'm not familiar with how magic works in the Forgotten Realms.

But basically there are a fuck ton of mages in general and a lot that are "initiates". Initiates are range from slightly to stupidly more powerful than a bog standard mage. Initiates have traveled the metaplanes to gain more power. I think that there is something like 1% of the world population (supposedly just over 7 billion) are mages or something like that. And that's not counting the SINless (people with no ID, they basically don't exist as far as records are concerned). This also ignores shit like spirits and dragons.

Magic in Shadowrun can basically do anything except manipulate the time/space continuum. You can go faster, but not by manipulating time (like the time freeze example from the D&D side, impossible in Shadowrun, supposedly). You'd do it by having something (like a spirit) propel you or making your body work faster.

>>50735798
>mortals can beat Tiamat
>mortals cannot beat Lofwyr
>ergo, Lofwyr can beat Tiamat
next question

>>50763022
>airstrike
By air strike you mean... Just bomb bombs? Or nukes?
She is flat out immune to DnD's five big elements. Fire (explosion are not at all effective to half depending on explosion), Cold, Electricity, Acid (Chemical or non), Gases, toxins and poisons
Very immune to any blunt or physical damage after that.
Then throw in not-quite-dead-pool-but-in-the-same-league regeneration. (Regen 50 on an aspect)
These immunities are before we start talking about normal immunities granted to demi or lesser gods.

And point of order: Tiamat is aware of technology, nukes, commence, and any sort of modern concepts. She owns worlds that range primordial soup to wrap speed technology- weather or not she is allowed to bring them, she is aware of how they generally work.

>>50766267
No mortal has done this yet lore wise.
A bunch of (a lot of) her proxies and aspects have kicked the can, but she herself has yet to be beat even once.
Your DMs home game doesn't count because as with Lofwyr we are using printed lore only.

>>50759817
>blood magic

That is incredibly unimpressive by standard d&d standards. Tiamat far surpasses standard d&d

>>50765195
It's a negative consequence but it isn't a logical negative consequence.

Like lets say you tell your friend that you wish he wouldn't smoke and convince him to quit. Because of this, aliens blow up the moon and kill all humans.

It's technically possible and it would be a very negative consequence but it is absolutely ridiculous and unforeseeable. Horrors like that are only there to try and protect the dragons since otherwise they are a very negative thing on the whole.

So doesn't Tiamat have the mental processing power of a suoercomputer or something? How smart is 30+ int.

>>50766903
I don't follow your logic at all. Let me spell out my side in the simplest terms I can.
>Horrors have historically always come and nothing stopped them in the end, at most they delay their coming
>Dragons and other powerful beings fight to delay the Horrors appearing, mostly in self-interest as the Horrors murder everyone
>Humanity has a fuck ton more tech in the 6th world and might be able to stop the Horrors or at least contribute more to delaying them
>But Humanity needs time to get it working to make sure it will kill Horrors
>Therefor we should keep the dragons and other powerful beings alive simply to delay the Horrors while we perfect our magitek.

I was just trying to point out that a case could easily be made that Dunkelzahn was aware of this and was buying time so someone could come up with a solution to stop the Horrors for good. Which a few years after his sacrifice, some tech surfaced that was able to effect dual natured beings such as dragons. Which shows promise for the tech being developed that allows a mundane (as in non-magical) grunt being able to shoot a spirit to pieces.

Your metaphor has literally nothing connecting someone smoking with aliens or the moon.

>>50742965
>There is also a fuck ton more Shadowrun casters at all power levels than D&D
Now, I don't know how many mage SR has of any given power level, but D&D (including the areas where Tiamat has influence) include quite a few world's with high level mages, plus she has dragons as minions which tend to have powerful spellcasting of their own, so she should be able to put up some hefty forces of her own.

Plus hiring SR mages of her own with cash and/or deception, of course (though that would be slow at first without already having minions there to serve as gobetweens).

>>50745140
You seem to have missed the people higher up going "nuke beats deity, no contest" and similar.

tl;dr people on both sides of this thread are faggots

>>50735798
THEY END UP FUCKIN'!

>>50767070
>Your metaphor has literally nothing connecting someone smoking with aliens or the moon.

That's the point. It's an extremely weak link and extremely harsh punishment that is a complete asspull that only really exists to prevent someone from stopping something actively harmful to them.

Much like BUT THE HORRORS is an asspull invented to try and excuse dragons in Shadowrun.

>>50746152
Don't ever deal with a dragon is kind of like don't ever fuck your coworkers. It's a rule most sane professionals agree to on the most shallow level, but really they're just waiting for something to push them into breaking it.

If you're actually interested in developing this in a game story, Verjigorm does seem like a decent Shadowrun version of Tiamat. It's worth noting that the dragons have generally hidden or, more recently, blocked the horrors from coming, rather than thinking that the dragons can win that fight right now, so I would expect a good game narrative to follow that pattern, rather than suddenly elevating the power of Lofwyr so he's no longer concerned with Horrors.

I was thinking humanity and dragons were more like 100 years from being ready for the confrontation with the Horrors, but maybe we're supposed to be closer to the key breakthroughs required to make that possible.

Tiamat and the other gods are held in check by other gods (or for the omnipotent ones, indifference). I'm not sure if a similar system exists for the Horrors. Gods generally have schemes which can be foiled by mortals/dragons, but they're supposed to be a narrative device, rather than stats.

>>50767684
>BUT THE HORRORS is an asspull invention
Uh...do you even know Shadowrun lore? There was a previous version before Catalyst (aka CGL) got hold of it. That company had the 6th world (Shadowrun) and the 4th world (Earthsea). This still holds true with various references between the two.

In Earthsea, and recorded as history in Shadowrun, the Horrors are one of the primary enemies. They aren't something conjured out of the writers asshole. They exist within the universe and there are ways to accelerate their dominance of the material plane (earth). Certain dragons and other massively powerful beings ARE LITERALLY THE FUCKING REASON THE 6TH WORLD ISN'T TAKING A MASS OF HORRORS UP THEIR FOURTH POINT OF CONTACT. Dunkelzahn is simply the first example I can recall off the top of my head for the 6th world (Shadowrun). Right now Harlequin (an IMMORTAL ELF) is doing some serious work keeping the Horrors at bay, with the help of extremely powerful artifacts (literally King Arthurs armor and Excalibur).

>>50766815
If you don't know anything about Shadowrun, you probably shouldn't comment, right?

>>50766267
ALL the arguments towards how could Tiamat be beaten have worked around the assumption that everything can be killed in Shadowrun, and Dragons, while high on the list, aren't even on top of it.
And only a little part of Tiamat's defense has been about how it's impossible to even harm her avatar by mundane or magical means if not by beings of epic or divine nature.

>>50763022
>>50763514
Tiamat-anon back from the lands of slumber.
Ok, so, let's see if we can come to a common ground.
We can work with these assumptions:

>Tiamat knows enough about the 6th world and Lofwyr knows enough about Tiamat
She's a deity and can watch what happens in planes from 'outside' - she exists in sci-fiish settings too - she can make some impressive Knowledge (Planes) checks - she can always Wish for knowledge (and if she were to enter a foreign plane of which she knew nothing about, she'd do just that because in no incarnation she's ever been an idiot).
On the other hand, Lofwyr has that whole 'Dragon knowledge' thing going on for him and the premise of this fight is that they somewhat exist in the same (multiplanar) universe, so it's reasonable that he's aware of what he's fighting against.

>The confrontation happens in the 6th world and there's a reasonable time limit for either party to win
Otherwise Tiamat could just send minions to either frontally attack Lofwyr or to hire - through time and effort- runners, shamans, azzies and whatever else - and eventually win, since in her own plane she's definitely beyon Lofwyr's reach.

>A nuke or enough high-level spirits will, if not kill her, harm her enough to make her leave the 6th world forever
Wheter she's immune to these things or not is pretty much impossible to determine since it all comes to which system you want to favour, so for the sake of confrontation let's take this one.

>If Tiamat gets to Lofwyr, she wins
Lofwyr can't win a direct confrontation against Tiamat, nor can he order a nuke on his own head - that'd be a pretty phyrric victory at best.

[continued]

>>50769225
[continued]
Given that, I'd also say:
>They're both protected from scrying/spying spells.
Anti-scrying magic is available to both and it's reasonable to assume that it will work against each other's attempts.
>Nothing can stop Tiamat from teleporting or time-stopping
6th world magic can't do it, so it has no means to prevent it either. As a consequence,
>Once Tiamat knows where Lofwyr is, she can get to him
We have to assume this information won't be immediate to obtain since, given he knows what he's up against, his first move will be to hide somewhere safe.

So it all comes down to this:
Can Lofwyr have Tiamat nuked/spirit ganked/blown up by some runners before she gets to know where he is?
We can assume it will be comparatively easy for him to secure her position, even if she's in human form, given astral signature etc.

The main problem is that in EVERY version I've read of her, Tiamat has sensorial perception of everything within 10 miles of her, and she can time-stop to teleport to safety or deploy appropriate protective spells to react to whatever threat she's about to face.
Given she has knowledge of what a nuke or a cluster of spirits can do to her, I don't think either is going to take her by surprise. And neither can be deployed absent-mindedly in populated areas, which is where TIamat is more likely to be looking for intel.

Runners are more likely to catch her unprepared, but how likely are they to actually kill her without carrying a cospicuous amount of explosives that she would detect as danger from ten miles away?

>>50769325
[Continued]
Basically, any plan to defeat her has to include a way to prevent her from stopping time and teleporting away before it's too late, which implies she must not be able to sense the threat, or to understand how much of a threat it is, until it's blowing up in her face.
Or, well, have her run out of spell. Which is going to take quite some effort.

So, if she plays smart and defensive, her first move will be to find a way to blend in. If she manages to hide her astral signature or however that is called (I don't remember now) and/or acquire a 'fake' SIN, it's going to be a lot harder to Lofwyr to track her position, considering she can change her appearence and, again, teleport. At this point her spells limit is no longer a factor, since she can most likely teleport away when she start to run out of spells, and most likely it will take more time for Lofwyr to find her again than it takes her to recover all her spells.

In this situation Lofwyr has the advantage of better intel, better personal knowledge of his opponent (his Loremaster status means he knows all there is to know, or almost so, about Tiamat, while she 'only' knows about the 6th world in general and can't scry him), and an advantage position - he's going to be in some secret hideout if he's not a moron.
On the other hand, he has the problem of actually hitting TIamat with something big enough to actually hurt her without having her slip away to another continent (or Wish the bomb away). His other problem is that once TIamat knows where he is, he's pretty much screwed. Like, instantly screwed with a facefull of five-headed avatar appearing instantly in his lounge.

It's an interesting scenario, I have to say.

>>5076946
Despite giving Lowfyr quite a number of arbitrary advanttges, the odds still seem definitely stacked in Tiamath's favour

>>50767982
>Certain dragons and other massively powerful beings ARE LITERALLY THE FUCKING REASON THE 6TH WORLD ISN'T TAKING A MASS OF HORRORS UP THEIR FOURTH POINT OF CONTACT. Dunkelzahn is simply the first example I can recall off the top of my head for the 6th world (Shadowrun). Right now Harlequin (an IMMORTAL ELF) is doing some serious work keeping the Horrors at bay, with the help of extremely powerful artifacts (literally King Arthurs armor and Excalibur).

So yes, Asspull Rocks fall and everyone dies to prevent the logical and reasonable response to dragons and such.

ICP boy is shit too, everyone knows that.

File: Tiamat.png (1MB, 994x725px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 994x725px

Tiamat wins.
She's just sexier.

File: treasure_hoarding_dragon_by_alexstoneart.jpg (487KB, 799x613px) Image search: [Google]

487KB, 799x613px

>>50735798
In a straight up fight? Tiamat.
However, she would have to fight off the entirety of the corporate world if Lofwyr has his influence as you mentioned.

Lofwyr is far from immortal, just unreachable, plus he may get the support of stupid fuckers like Harlequin. And if Tiamat can be felled by various adventures, she'd definitely fall to the ridiculous amount of Runners, Illegal mages, and heavy ordinance.

The real debate however is not who would win, but who would be on top.

File: tiamat_Cute.jpg (127KB, 600x537px) Image search: [Google]

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>>50769461
>>50771554
>>50735798

All of this prep work.

This some-what formidable "mortal" dragon.

There is only ONE reason Tiamat has come to the 6th world to confront Lofwyr.

After she breaks pass his defenses (Which will happen), and corners the Dragon Baron (which will happen). First she will batter him around to see how long this creature can endure torture. Then Tiamat will offer Lofwyr one proposal and he only has once chance to accept...

the invitation that Lofwyr may begin courting the Goddess of Dragons.

Funny as that is, this is actually a very in-lore and in-character reason why she would bother to attack him in the first place. To see if he is worth to be her new prime consort.