Badass Normal

File: snickers.jpg (127KB, 621x304px) Image search: [Google]

127KB, 621x304px

>>50729945
OP, eat a snickers.

>>50729945
>So why, why do I keep running into players who think this is a good idea?
Because the average Joe is relatable, regardless of strength. I think the best recent example of this is One Punch Man. It started out as some shitty web manga that looked like a five year old drew it, yet it grew into an international hit anime with a confirmed second season. Why? Multiple answers are possible, but a large factor is Saitama being so relatable. He wasn't an alien dropped from a planet of space warriors, he wasn't struck by lightning while covered in a questionable concoction of chemicals, he wasn't hit by gamma radiation and he wasn't created by the gods. He's simply an unemployed guy suffering under the recession who decided to do a lot of squats and a lot of oats... and he's still not happy because now nothing can meaningfully challenge him. He's relatable, and therefore automatically easier to like.

Same reason why people have since time immemorial sided with the underdog. The big badass wining is a foregone conclusion, the underdog coming out on top (even if it's through an asspull here or there) makes for the better story. Nobody roots for Goliath, we all want to see David win.

>>50730035
I doubt even a snickers could quench OP's everlasting lust for cocks.

>>50730171
OPM is a parody and partial inversion of the badass normal archetype. There's nothing normal about him, he's grossly overpowered and his backstory is a complete and intentional joke. That's not a valid comparison.

>>50729945
Okay so, if I'm understanding this correctly, a 'badass normal' is someone like Batman or Sagara? A mundane human who works his way around supernatural difficulties without the inhuman powers and abilities of the other characters in the story?

That's almost impossible to make in an TTRPG, from a mechanics standpoint, as things are generally balanced and if you lack in one area your points will go into something else useful. For example, a human in WoD can pick up some nasty Fighting Styles or Hunter pacts that bring them roughly into line mechanically with everyone else, even if everyone else is a vampire.

>>50730279
A human fighter is the very ideal of a badass normal.
OP is complaining about people making unfitting backstories, I guess.

>>50730279
>Okay so, if I'm understanding this correctly, a 'badass normal' is someone like Batman or Sagara? A mundane human who works his way around supernatural difficulties without the inhuman powers and abilities of the other characters in the story?
Exactly.

>That's almost impossible to make in an TTRPG, from a mechanics standpoint
That's my point. Either you use the mechanics properly and end up with a character that, while maybe not optimized, is still cut well above the 'normal' (for example, playing a Fighter in 3.pf isn't optimal in most cases, but you still have a role and a purpose) in which case there's no point in pretending to be normal, or you purposely gimp yourself to fit your 'cool' backstory and become dead weight mechanically.

>>50730361
>Either you use the mechanics properly and end up with a character that, while maybe not optimized, is still cut well above the 'normal'

Batman is well above normal too.

It kinda sounds like, fluffwise at least, you can succeed at making these kinds of characters just by building a fighter or a hunter or whatever. You're still playing the role of a mundane human in a group of magical beings (potentially; the concept of 'badass normal' as you describe it falls apart in something like D&D as soon as someone else players a non-magical class, as now there's nothing distinct about your character), even if you have mechanical boons to offer.

>or you purposely gimp yourself to fit your 'cool' backstory and become dead weight mechanically.

When someone does this, it is your job as GM to just say "No, you'll be dead weight. If you want to play a mundane human with skills make a hunter or select some fighting styles or whatever."

In fact, the decision to do as you say is so adverse to the concept of badass normal as you describe it, that I'm having a hard time believing this is a real problem anyone has ever encountered. Characters like Batman or Moon Knight are defined by their mundane skills, if someone aims to make a character like them they're going to pick skills or classes that allow them to do that stuff.

>>50729945
>I'm talking about the kind of player who wants to play a flatscan in a game of superheroes, a human in a game of vampire, or a farmer in a game of wizards.

It's fine and I will allow it if the rest of the party is OK with it, but there has to be a good in-character reason, and a good out-of-character reason for it. If the whole party agrees that they are OK with playing a game where the wizards secretly carry the farmer to defeat the big bad, that sounds like it could be a lot of fun.

I'm a little bit guilty of this because I tend to make characters that work mechanically but stand out as anomalies in the setting. If it's a doom-and-gloom kind of game, I'll make an optimistic character; if it's a Shadowrun game, I'll make a character with the Technologically Impaired drawback; stuff like that. It usually ends up working since the characters are capable of contributing mechanically and their personalities help drive the roleplay or develop the setting.

>So why, why do I keep running into players who think this is a good idea? As a foreverGM, I dislike turning down characters.
Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe this is just a personal problem? I've not had such experiences and don't know anyone in person who's experienced this. Maybe you're just not lucky here. Have you tried doing group character creation? Like, have the first session just be character creation and backstory writing?

>>50729945
I wouldn't go that far, but I kind of understand where you're coming from.
The everyman underdog hero trope doesn't work without blatant confirmation bias. We tell stories about the inexperienced farmer who defeated a monster with nothing but his own wits and guts, because it gives us hope, but the dozen dead farmers who tried before him are barely mentioned. You can't easily do that in an unscripted game unless there's a quantified plot armor mechanic, such as Dresden Files RPG giving extra fate points to non-magical characters.
Also, speaking purely of my own personal preference, a player who smugly refuses to touch the core concept of a game about superheroes/vampires/wizards/etc. seems like the most special snowflake of all.

>>50729945
If you really have that big a problem with this OP you could give these mundane characters a slightly bigger stat boost while level during the early levels, just enough to bring them in line with the more talented members of the party. This makes sense because the encounters will be harder for this character and they will learn more from it than someone who will have a naturally easier time.

>>50729945

Maybe you're not selling the idea of the core premise of the game well enough.

In the absence of compelling flavor, players will generally do whatever the hell they want to do, and that generally means rehashing things they've seen in media, and badass normals are in fact, all over the place, because everyone likes the underdog.

If you don't want people playing characters with built-in underdogness, you need to give more guidance to people as to what characters are approriate. This generally includes throwing a few sample ideas(You don't even have to go into detail, just give some ideas), or being stricter with what you wanna see out of characters.

Like, it is entirely valid to create a character who STARTS as a badass normal. They don't have to remain one. For instance, a flatscan in a game of superheroes might be the subject of superhero augmentations due to a horrific accident or injury(This is a common origin for superheroes in the bronze age and beyond!), or a character MIGHT have been a normal human until very recently, and now he's the newbie in the group. And a farmer becoming a wizard because three years ago a wandering mage discovered his talent and it turns out he is a prodigy, but hopelessly inexperienced in the finer points of wizardry is ALSO a common trope.


Players often just want a grounded point of reference, and it's your job as GM to get them from their rough beginnings to a polished gem of a character.


tl;dr: TALK TO YOUR PLAYERS. NEVER GENERATE CHARACTERS IN A VACUUM.

Enable their ideas, utilize their imaginations. Most concepts are never deep or suitable enough at first glance without some polishing.

I think badass normals work best when they use the fact they are normal as an advantage, rather than a disadvantage.

>>50729945
I've got nothing against the concept but I've seen too many works extolling the virtues of the bad-ass normal only to shoot themselves in the foot by having them match whatever-flavor-of-special is around punch for punch. At that point, they aren't 'normal', but very much special themselves or very late bloomers.

>>50731038
I agree with this. Coming into a party of extraordinary people with some "ordinary" guy is just you trying to be special.

>Batman
>Average normal
The dude has a more powerful reality warping power than Franklyn Richards at his peek, the fuck are you talking?

File: Listen here you lil' shit.jpg (165KB, 1000x385px) Image search: [Google]

165KB, 1000x385px

>>50729945
Are you one of those people who would encourage others to roll a wizard but would bitch about someone picking something from Tome of Battle? Because you sound like one. I don't like you.

>>50730346
A human fighter falls under his first example

>>50730279
>>50730361
>That's almost impossible to make in an TTRPG
Not if you use the right systems. In Mutants and Masterminds Batman's PL would have to be very high if you want to accurately represent him being the world's best martial artist, the world's greatest detective, a scientific supergenius AND a fabulously wealthy businessman with access to high-tech gadgets. In fact, the manual reccomends you make heroes like Batman (unpowered pulpy dudes with a lot of experience) at LEAST PL12, whereas the expected PL of a game is 10.

The 'faggot op' shitposters are even more cancerous than the typical forced meme bullshit that some new anons come up with.

I know that these shitposters are popular on /tg/, and I realize that in every internet user's development there comes a point where they go "You know what would be awesome? If I posted lies, on the internet!" And depending on the anon they'll come up with some 'cool' concept like maybe a rare pepe or a big guy for you or whatever happens to catch their fancy. And whatever they come up with, they'll always end up one or two ways:

One, their op reflects their memester status, rendering them at best a hothead who contributes nothing (mechanically speaking, at least) to the plane. Or two, their OP does not reflect their memester status, making their post a forced meme.

So why, why do I keep running into posters who think this is a good idea? As a faggot, I dislike high quality posts. Anons like to put effort into their shitposts, so if there's something wrong I'd much rather help the anon make some minor adjustments than to just throw away all their work. But if the meme is unfunny, there's not much to do besides sending them back to the drawing board. And at least copypasta bullshit justifies a merciless shutting down, but the banepost has at least genuinely good, if entirely stupid, intentions.

Of course if the OP is expected to be 'a faggot' then there's no issue, that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about the kind of OP who wants to be CIA in a thread of superheroes, a spurdo in a thread of pepe, or a sportacus in a game of lazytown. They seem to be infatuated with the idea of some nobody showing everyone how it's done, regardless of whether the thread actually supports that and oblivious to the fact that if they somehow succeed it's only due to the work of the -actual- anons who've been carrying his lame ass all the way.

>>50733032
Is OP actually some new pasta, or are you just proving your own point?

File: fagpot.jpg (43KB, 240x240px) Image search: [Google]

43KB, 240x240px

>>50729945
sound like you just hate human fighters

>>50732970
Ah, checked in the DC Adventures supplement. Batman is PL12, but uses 283 points, while normal PL12 characters are only allowed 180. You'd need PL19 to get enough points to build him without having to use excessive PP. That would make him borderline cosmic

>>50733178
Most of the characters stats in DC and in any supplement that has NPCs are built using more points than their PL would normally permit
Batman for instance is built with only a 10pp difference between himself Superman and Wonder Woman to reflect the fact that he is part of the Trinity

Also while I agree with OP in general I don't have a problem with non powered characters in a supers game like M&M, because they usually make up for it with gadgets or skills

>>50730226
OPM is a straight man rolling with it in a universe where a man can turn into a monster by shadow-punching the switch string of a lightbulb too many times. That is his schtick.

>>50733378
It's also worth mentioning he was far more enthusiastic and idealistic about being a superhero before he became bullshit-man. He still gets excited when he thinks someone is going to be an actual challenge. His obvious dissapointment and half-hearted compliment when even Boros dies in one punch once he gets serious makes for a nice bit of drama.

File: one-punch-man-01.png (755KB, 1024x768px) Image search: [Google]

755KB, 1024x768px

Y'all are wrong.

A "badass normal" isn't someone like Batman, and DEFINITELY not someone like Saitama.

It's not about a character who's powerful despite having "no powers", it's about a character who has more balls than power.

You know, like this guy. Or Izuku Midoria from My hero academia BEFORE he was chosen. Which is WHY he was chosen.

A human fighter is a good example only because fighters are often woefully underpowered as shit so to play one and play one successfully you need to be a hero in the first place.

>>50729945
>Badass Normal
>>>/tvtropes/

>>50733621
What about Badass normals that use the fact they are normal, sane, human being in order to do things.

>>50732477

It happens a lot. You always have that one guy who wants to play a normal human in a party of Solar Exalted.

>>50733635
>website tribalism
>>>/s4s/

>>50733621
D&D Fighters are only really bad in some earlier editions, and they definitely are not normal in 5e. Or at least, they are normal in the way an olympic athlete is technically a normal human being. Even a level 1 fighter is supposed to be absolutely exceptional

>>50733636
Yeah sure. I fucking defy you to tell me that Batman is normal or sane. This has been commented on multiple times by his enemies when he successfully withstood brainwashing and/or drugs that should've made his teeth melt.

So, normal, sane, human beings. Fair enough. Still not Batman.

And don't even get me started on Saitama. Dude apparently has impenetrable skin and no upper limit to his strength. That is SO NOT NORMAL.

>>50733706
They are below olympic athletes is some fields though.

>>50733682
elephantiasis
>My mad science laboratory

>>50733712
You have to understand the kind of character Batman draws upon. He's a very idealized form of a renaissance man, as were pulp heroes like Doc Savage. He was never intended to be realistic in any way.

>>50732946
>A human fighter falls under his first example
Ah yes, I forgot that 3.PF is the only system that exists.

>>50733758
>he was never intended to be realistic in any way
so you admit he's not a badass normal because he's not normal

>>50730279
>'badass normal' is someone like Batman
I don't know who that second person is but Batman is distinctly not normal, he just doesn't have an overt superpower. He's in like the top percentile of humanity in both physical and mental ability and has enough money to have a secret cave stocked with cutting edge technology.

>>50733775
In any system where you can play supernatural/superhuman individuals, the "badass normal" will always be mundane to the point of dead weight.

It's why you can't roll up a human fighter in 3.PF, why you can't play a non-hunter human in WoD, why you can't play an ordinary human without augments or matrix bullshit in SR, etc.

It's because if you do decide to do something like that, you're shooting yourself in the foot while everyone else is forced to soldier your weight just to keep you alive when something big shows up and pastes you for being an ordinary human being.

>>50733830

Isn't that the definition of badass normal though? Someone without superpowers that can keep up with them?

>>50733855
Bats definitely has superpowers. To be precise, his power is money; he makes the most money, so the writers let him get away with the most shit.

>>50733872

That's not really an in-universe superpower though.

File: you dance motherfucker.png (491KB, 442x600px) Image search: [Google]

491KB, 442x600px

>>50733855
I already explained this. A badass normal is somebody with more balls than power, not someone who's powerful despite having "no powers".

>>50733854
>why you can't play a non-hunter human in WoD, why you can't play an ordinary human without augments or matrix bullshit in SR
Neither of those things are analogous to a human fighter PC, what you're describing is akin to taking levels in Commoner. By virtue of having player D&D character class levels a character is automatically special and not normal, 3.PF just fails at this because it's a pathetic dumpster fire of a game system.

>>50733854
>shadowrun party has a medic
>like comletely dedicated only to medicine
>no cyberware or magic or even other skills of note
fuck this guy

>>50733878
Maybe not, but he definitely does things that are impossible, and comic book physics can only be stretched so far before. Or to put it another way, Batman's ability to fight for 72 hours is more objectionable than Garp's ability to replace a cannon, so I guess that it's a matter of presentation. Batman is explicitly a normal person, except the part where he explicitly is not.

>>50730361
Depends on the TTRPG really.

For example: in Wild Talents, it's fairly easy to make a Badass Normal: Invest your character points in your physical and mental stats: 2 is an average human, 5 is peak normal human.

After that, just augment your peak human abilities with skills to further increase your dice pool. For example, a Body 5 human with 5 ranks in Brawl is rolling the same size die pool as a superhuman talent with 10 dice in body.

You can also upgrade regular dice to "expert" dice, which give your hero more control over their abilities, or even Wiggle Dice, which can be representative of being able to adapt as situations change.

So, while Player X might be able to shoot lasers form his hands, Player Y, the badass normal, might just be able to pick a fly out from between it;s wings with any handheld firearm.

Sure, There's a lot to be said for the versatility of being able to teleport, fly, magnetize people or objects, create spirit photography, whatever. But frequently, i find that the supers with a power will stop thinking outside of that power, while the badass normal frequently has abilities that cover a wider variety of situations than their powered allies.

>>50733882

Except that really doesn't seem to be the common definition. The usual usage of it is 'Guy without in-universe superpowers'.

>>50733855
Not in the sense that OP is talking about. Batman doesn't technically have any superpowers but no normal human could ever reach the level Batman is sitting at.

File: 1345674092545.jpg (118KB, 425x638px) Image search: [Google]

118KB, 425x638px

>>50733855
It's usually someone without powers that uses their skills to outwit far superior foes. Batman only fits in the strictest definition, because throughout his runs he's also the world's best athlete, martial artist, detective, and is a super genius that has plans for everything. In any other setting Batman's mastery of every human skill that exists would be considered a superpower, in addition to his use of high-tech or outright magical gear.

A Badass Normal cannot "keep up with" superpowers. He finds ways to avoid direct engagements or changes the game so he doesn't have to keep up. Batman typically does not do this.

>>50733888
If they're only good at medicine than that means that they have no apparent means of defending themselves from an enemy. Also, they won't be able to use their medical skills during combat because, surprise surprise, it's a bit difficult to patch a bullet wound while you're in the middle of gunfight with limited cover. Lastly, the other PC's would have to protect them from harm while they cannot to anything to impact the battlefield beyond triage after the fight's over, which means that if everyone else is downed, it's a TPK because they cannot do anything.

So thanks for proving my point, wasted trips.

>>50733969

>In a World... with supernatural dealings or superpowers, this character is the one who is able to keep being useful through intellect, martial arts abilities, general ruthlessness, or just being Crazy-Prepared.

It seems like the idea behind it very much is 'Can keep up'.

>>50733872
Except that's not his power, his power is basically plot armor

He can redirect plasma and electric rays with a random toilet mirror he picked from the ground

He can withstand an explosion 400x stronger than Hiroshima's nuke with his face

He can react in less time that it takes light to move 1 cm

He can pack a "punch" with his finger with more force than the Sun can generate in 1 year

Etc

Btw, all this actually happened in comics

>>50733883
Human Fighters are commoners in disguise anon, it's why they only receive feats while everyone else receives rage powers, uncanny dodge, and animal companions to name a few.

The most impressive part about Fighters mostly comes from the fact that they can survive the most damage than anyone else, with only the Barbarian beating them out in HD. However, since everyone is able to take punishment and handle themselves during combat, the Fighter just kinda ends up being superfluous and mundane in comparison.

>>50734011
Don't forget the time he shot Darkseid with a gun, and the bullet reached and killed him before the Omega Sanction could close in on Bats, and IIRC, DS' doom lasers do indeed move at light speed, whereas bullets do not.

>>50733882
That's wrong you idiot. A Badass Normal is someone who is able to keep up with superhumans despite possessing no superpowers.

YOU are talking about a "Fearless Fool", someone who, despite having NO business being in a fight, is right there on the frontlines.

A Badass Normal is legitimately badass. a fearless fool *thinks* they are.

>>50734033
Not only that, he also had time to say some quippy shit and even drop the gun like it was a mic, all in the lapse of fucking light traveling 2 meters.

>>50734015
You're still just talking about 3.PF.

>>50734011
It's less plot armor and more that his superpower is having hack writers.

>>50729945
>misusing "cancerous"
Stopped reading there.

>>50734074
There is nothing a Fighter can do that another class cannot do better.

Rangers are better archers, Paladins are better tanks, Barbarians deal more damage, Rogues deal better debuffs, and Monks are better at unarmed fighting.

It's a consequence of their niche being "dude who fights best" when every dude in the party can fight, including the mages.

>>50734015
Do you know anything about GURPS? How about FATE? FUDGE? Any of those? Do you?
I'm asking, for all our sakes Virt.

>>50734109
Still. talking. about. three. dot. pee. eff.

>>50734109
>and Monks are better at unarmed fighting
The mother of misconceptions, they have bigger die, they're pretty bad at it. You can make a fighter be a better unarmed combatant than a monk pretty easily.

>>50734075
Every comic book hero in existence has the power of hack writers.

The only difference between Batman and Naruto is that Naruto's power levels are consistently shit while Batman power level varies from writer to writer.

>>50734109

Fighters are the king of lockdown in 4e. They get up in your face and make you miserable while they protect their allies.

>>50734125
This is true for every edition from 3.PF on anon.

>>50734151

4e Fighters are the best all-around defenders in the game.

>>50734148
Too bad nobody acknowledges 4e. Even WotC silently discontinued it once it became clear that PF was kicking its corpse down towards the river.

>>50733812
I wasn't even arguing he was a badass normal, I was arguing he was never even intended to be normal in any way. He just gained that trait over time as more overtly superhuman heroes became the rule

>>50734162
see>>50734164

>>50734164
>>50734181
>fighters are shit
>no they weren't, here's a version on which they were good
>WHO CARES LMAO

File: 1474369961447.png (688KB, 860x900px) Image search: [Google]

688KB, 860x900px

>>50733965
Batman is on the low end of human potential.

File: Levi_Ackerman_character_image.png (348KB, 440x440px) Image search: [Google]

348KB, 440x440px

Pic related is an example of a meme that defies the false dichotomy OP presents. Don't know if there's a TV Tropes or Encyclopedia Dramatica page for the concept, but Levi is what happens when you put enough humans into a meat grinder. Eventually one of the thousands or millions survives long enough to become monstrously skilled.

File: 12531039_215422992160318_1558477158_n.jpg (17KB, 320x320px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 320x320px

I agree with OP somewhat.
If you want to be a "normal joe turned hero", you need one of a few things.
You could gimp your stats to those of a commoner/human/muggle, and then try to play the game. That's an issue because you will normally either die without support or bog down the rest of the party's resources to protect you; and while some groups are fine with someone who doesn't contribute as much mechanically and are willing to support a player "mascot", many are not, especially without prior counsel.

The second option would be to play a normal basic fighter or whatever and either refluff actual skills as luck or accept that they're already above and beyond despite humble background.

The issue with the latter approach is that a player might feel that it's "cheating" or "not real" because the character isn't a dead fish statistically, however, the only potential way for the first approach to pan out as a hero fantasy is to be incredibly lucky- and while one could recreate "luck" with fluff or certain mechanics to bring the character in balance with the changes, they shouldn't complain that they failed to be legitimately lucky in the clutch of time every time they need it should they refuse that balance.

Pic potentially related- minimal skill investment, but a power that allows coping with much larger scale challenges, though it'd be very impractical to try and use in a tabletop.

>>50733974
We never even get hit, he gets paid for nothing

>>50734290
You don't wear a helmet to get hit in the head.
You wear a helmet so that if you DO get hit in the head, you don't die.
Same for having a health insurance. You don't get that planning to get sick.
You get it in order to be safe if you DO get sick.

>>50734164

That doesn't stop it existing/being true.

>>50734284
*or* you could play Feng Shui, where there is a goddamn literal playable character archetype called "Everyman Hero". He has knowledge ranks in local sports teams and stadium rock ballads.

>>50734284
>the only potential way for the first approach to pan out as a hero fantasy is to be incredibly lucky-
Or, not to be stupid.
There are plenty of games that intentionally start you off on a reasonably "normal" level and where you don't ascend to Godhood within a few months.
Even if you don't want to play one of those games, you and your group can agree on playing a group of normal schmucks. Everybody gimps their stats, and the GM sets the difficulty rating of your adventures accordingly.

>Pic potentially related-
A guy who got pretty much everything handed to him. He was on a first-name basis with some of the most powerful creatures of the universe from day one. His accomplishments amount to him pointing the heroes in the direction of the villains. Oh well.

Had a guy like this some time ago, always wanted to do something retarded like play an librarian or carpenter. The correct answer is to have them roll a real charecter, give it leadership, and then they can play the follower outside of combat if they insist on being utter fucking beta fags even in their fantasies. bonus cuck points if the real charecter is a sexy badass chick they just m'lady around the countryside for.

>>50734402
average dude dealing with average threats isn't what were discussing here

>>50734431
>carpenter with leadership skills
I can't see that sitting well with the authorities. Died they crucify you?

>>50734486
Everyone needs to start somewhere.
After mastering average threats, you move on to the challenging ones.

>>50734431
>beta cuck fags
Easy there Jimbo. I warned you those roids would shrink your balls but you chose to take them anyway. No need to project your impotence on men with normal size testicles for not living up to your He-Man sexual fantasies.

>>50734535
It's you isn't it, Johnathan? Ugh, I thought you would have sperged your way into a seizure in traffic by now.

>>50734402
>Everybody gimps their stats
We're not comparing a game of normal people accomplishing normal things. We're talking about "normal" people who manage to do extraordinary things, in the context of games where the players are generally extraordinary themselves.

And pic is related. It's a guy who sucks at fighting and has no useful knowledge skills, but works together with extraordinary and powerful people. However, the methods by which he makes himself useful are rather impractical to try and use in a game with multiple players.

File: 1477386624393.gif (983KB, 500x281px) Image search: [Google]

983KB, 500x281px

>>50734591

>>50734284
Or you could just roleplay

I could make a rogue that roughly has the personality of Bilbo Baggins at the beginning of The Hobbit. He'd avoid unecessary conflict, be generally uncomfortable with any sort of violence, resort to trickery when possible, and otherwise behave like a slightly neurotic, stuffy, sheltered british gentleman. I don't need to gimp him mechanically or make some kind of paradox where he inexplicably turns into a complete action hero badass when he has to actually use his skills - just to delineate he's very naive, somewhat out of his element while in tense situations despite being able to function as apart of the party, and that 9 times out of 10 he'd rather be reading while sitting on a comfortable chair back at home.

>>50734828
As a side note, this would obviously get nonsensical on high-power games, but I don't think you should allow Bilbo Baggins on a game where people are crushing dragon skulls with one hand and fingerbanging goddesses with another, on any case. But even on a game like that you could simply make a very down-to-earth character who doesn't like flaunting his power.

>>50733682
t. Butturt Troper

File: 1477624532230.gif (71KB, 300x167px) Image search: [Google]

71KB, 300x167px

>>50734828
You can be a reluctant adventurer from a small background. But once again, if you're not going to reduce your power level, then you've got to accept that your character is of extraordinary strength, even if your character does not acknowledge it and acts accordingly cautiously. That's a fine thing to do, it can lend some real gravitas and wisdom or sensible cowardice to someone.
However, some people would still complain about having to play an "on curb" character, especially if they're trying to emulate a "badass normal" character from something by suddenly becoming useful despite being shit.

Actually, I think you're right. The problem isn't with the trope, it's with bad players who want to recreate shallow aspects of a trope without paying attention to what the system or their party aught to handle or the underlying aspects of said trope.

File: 1480480894717.png (1MB, 1600x2200px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1600x2200px

Really I'm just tired of the smugness I've seen that seems to be associated with badass normals.

It's the same sort of smug that dorfwankers or HFYfags where they have to brag about how mundane they are to make them feel like they're better roleplayers, but there's also this strange need to weaponize it into some sort of reverse special snowflake power.

>>50734279
The Ackerman bloodline has actual superpowers though, which are unlocked through extreme trauma/fear and implied to come from the same source as the Titans.

Though since these powers are "remain calm under pressure" and "use 100% of your body's potential", just think about how Attack on Titan characters would react to what Batman can do.

>>50733854
Ah yes, I forgot that the Anima mundane classes were totally useless.

>>50733854
>why you can't play a non-hunter human in WoD
On the other hand, nWoD hunters pretty much are normal humans, at least when they begin. And there is a template literally made so you can play a competent mortal

>>50735369
Isn't that nWoD core, Mortals?

>>50735375
Besides the stuff in Mortals, there's Extraordinary Mortals from Mirrors

>>50730171
Average Joe is relatable but it leads me to a different conclusion. Look at at archetypical staring character of world of darkness games. He's an average jerk-off who has magic powers with a bunch of drawbacks thrust upon him and he's trying to deal with all those changes happening in his life. That's relatable. A badass normal character who's on the same power-level as a newbie vampire would be some sort of elite special ops guy on the run from cia. That's less relatable to an average player. To reiterate a powered character like Spiderman - relatable. An unpowered character who's on the same level like Batman, a playboy billionaire who trained with ninjas all around the world - less relatable.

>>50732546
Is that just random wankery or do you have something to back it up?

>>50733812
The normal part means not having cool magic or super- powers. The badass part means being a cool enough dude to be able to deal with people who have those powers.

>>50733854
That's not always true. There are point buy systems that have magic or superpowers so expensive that you're better off getting better combat stats.

>>50729945
>So why, why do I keep running into players who think this is a good idea?
My personal experience is that this is pushed more often by GMs who get some idea in their head about what would be an interesting premise, but they don't fully commit to the concept. We've played multiple games where we've been asked to make normal, non-combat guys and then thrust into scenarios in which we have no real motivation to fight people or take sides.

Then the game eventually peters out as the GM gets tired of trying to funnel the characters into his story or everyone turns into complete sociopaths, killing anything that stands in their way.

>>50729945
>Stop playing men-at-arms, bushmen and streetrats.
Fuck you, heroes start places. Not everyone important needs to be born demigods or savants that hack the universe.

File: Arthur.jpg (22KB, 439x335px) Image search: [Google]

22KB, 439x335px

>>50729945
I have exactly zero issue with a player bringing a "normal" character along, as long as I understand why.
Generally, if someone is just being contrary to the setting it's a huge red flag.
>>50730491
>I'm a little bit guilty of this because I tend to make characters that work mechanically but stand out as anomalies in the setting
You seem decent, but it's still a red flag for me.

But if a guy wants to play Samwise Gamgee while everyone else wants to play Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and Deadpool?
I let him play.
I let the normal guy try his best, contribute, and occasionally twist things to give him moments of glory, even if it's just by fetching the McGuffin.
I have not problem with sub-optimal characters that are at least somewhat useful.
I have no problem with normal characters that play like Arthur from the Tick. (Yes, technically he could fly, but still)

Now if your average Joe farmer guy that followed the heroic champions along on their quest falls along the way, that's the litmus test.
If farmer Joe takes an arrow to the knee, falls off a cliff, and dies, the heroes don't really have a reason to spend time and money to replace a farmhand they never really needed, do they?
No, they fight on in his honor.
How the player responds when their squishy normal character dies is where I decide what kind of player they are.
If they expect the other players or GM to bend over backwards to let Timmy join the Superfriends, that just isn't going to happen.

And I've never understood those who complain about a character bringing down the party by being weaker.
If they contribute, it shouldn't be a problem.
And if they don't, they shouldn't be in the party.

>>50733083
That's pasta.

>>50736279
Thank you for the clarification. Much appreciated, famalam.

I think the "badass normal" depends on the world they're in.

When in-context, being "extraordinary" just means "having at least one level in one of 7 classes" it really doesn't work. Because your requirement for being "relevant" is the same as being "extraordinary".

As opposed to other settings, where most characters are normal + "unique" power, and it's not just a matter of "by virtue of being a 'main character' you need to have stats at least this high", because the emphasis isn't on being "better" it's about having something "normal" people don't. As a tool in fiction it's typically used to highlight a character's dependence on their powers, by having them fall victim to a character who's prepared/knows how to put a wall up. Mechanically, it could be expressed in leveling the normal stuff, instead of investing in some kind of supernatural power.

I'm not a living archive of tabletop systems, but I don't think they typically do the "unique" power thing fantastically well. Particularly because it's hard to "template" something like that, especially when the goal is combat-heavy / non-freeform style of gameplay. Ideally, every power would provide a different way to interact with the world, with chance for success or failure, but it's hard to make a system that FEELS right, and is encompassing enough to be used / adapted when someone wants to play a character who doesn't use one of the default powers, without having to homebrew a new system for it.

"Crazy prepared" can be done, you can be the guy with "something in the bag for everything", but typically what people think when they think crazy prepared is Desert Punk style shenanigans, with traps lined up, decoys, back-up plans in case things go wrong, and just setting up for the perfect knockout punch. (but that's only really an example of "badass normal" when compared to other series).

"Normal" is relative, Krillin is the most powerful human. But fuck humans when fighting gods.

>>50736310
Krilin literally trained first under a monastery of super-martial artists, then with the world's strongest man, at least one god, and then had his hidden powers awakened by an alien magician. I'm not sure that would count as normal on most settings. The strongest person who doesn't use ki is probably someone from very early original Dragon Ball, or Mr. Satan

>>50730171

>Saitama
>Badass normal

You're either confused as to what a Badass Normal is or you never actually watched that show.

>>50733682
>anal devastation
>>>/suicide/

>>50735766

Wankery.

>>50733621

Batman is the living definition of Badass Normal. Mumen Rider is most definitely not Badass Normal. He's just Normal. You missed the entire joke.

>>50736375
Maybe I did make a mistake, but post-cell wasn't Krillin kinda irrelevant? Granted that's a ways through the story, but even prior to that despite essentially being "The strongest human in the universe", he was constantly outmatched since Vegeta, and most of his help came from both "just being there as an added target to have the enemies focus split", and having the destructo disk (which only really hit once, and it was a glancing blow, but still strong enough to show he's not completely left in the dust at that point).

It has been a really long time though, and I was mostly trying to illustrate that when the rest of the group is going toe-to-toe with godlike beings, being there ready to get a few (not negligible) shots in when the chance shows up, buy the heavy hitters time, or just be the only sane person who's capable / willing to give the heavy hitters a wake up slap if they start going off the deep end, still somewhat qualifies when conventional "normal" is so far beneath the notice of the plot that's it's entirely irrelevant.

>>50733830

>He's in like the top percentile of humanity in both physical and mental ability and has enough money to have a secret cave stocked with cutting edge technology.

So then he's normal. Being well trained and well equipped does not make you superhuman. All of his abilities are within human parameters.

>>50736467
Well, no one who wasn't a saiyan or piccolo did all that well after Cell. Krilin did manage to be relevant in Frieza against an enemy dozens of times stronger than him though. His shtick was being incredibly good at controlling his ki, but later on fights became a power level check where the one with the biggest hand lasers won

I just thought of it, you want a taunt ability, something that can interrupt "utility" tricks or really powerful things, and a REALLY FUCKING HIGH MOVEMENT SPEED. You fight the boss, and basically just act as a thorn in his side, and then when someone's about to go down you yell "HEY COCKHEAD" and keep him distracted until the rest of the group can re-buff/recover.

>>50736310

Krillin is neither normal or the most powerful human.

>>50736510
Toriyama literally said he's the most powerful human. Tien only harms Cell because he's using a ridiculously dangerous technique which shortens his lifespan whenever used

Unless you count Uub, but he isn't strictly human

>>50736559
If you put Tien on an intravenous drip of senzu bean, could he Kikoho forever?

>>50736559

Toriyama says lots of things. He literally forgets who characters are. Fact is Krillin is explicitly shown as weaker than Tien and Yamcha at multiple points in the series. He stops training entirely after Cell saga so the gap gets even wider.

>>50736687
>Yamcha
Where in the name of fuck is Krilin shown as being weaker than yamcha? And what proof for Tien being stronger is there other than his kiko-ho?

>>50736705
This.

>>50733830
No you fool, batman's superpower is having dead rich parents. His grief gives him autistic and obsessive crime fighting abilities, and his disregard for reason has him kidnap little boys and force them into spandex to run around assaulting people at night with him.

The best super power, of course, is The Punisher's crime-causing aura. His presence automatically makes other people around him commit crimes, and thus he can shoot people and be ok with it after finding drugs on their person after the deed.

File: notagain.jpg (78KB, 500x457px) Image search: [Google]

78KB, 500x457px

>>50736705

>Where in the name of fuck is Krilin shown as being weaker than yamcha

The entirety of the original series. Remember when Krillin got killed in a single punch from Tambourine whereas a crippled Yamcha was able to defend himself? Or when Yamcha and Krillin where training and Yamcha just fucking drop kicked him the face like a lil bitch.

Both Yamcha and Tien are shown with higher power levels when Nappa scans them in DBZ. Krillin stopped training altogether post Cell whereas Tien and Yamcha kept on trucking.

>>50736810
To be fair, Dick was already in the spandex when Bruce found him.

>>50736813
> Remember when Krillin got killed in a single punch from Tambourine whereas a crippled Yamcha was able to defend himself?
I actually don't remember that one, so you may be right
>Or when Yamcha and Krillin where training and Yamcha just fucking drop kicked him the face like a lil bitch.
Filler
>Both Yamcha and Tien are shown with higher power levels when Nappa scans them in DBZ
Also filler. Even the Daizenshuu lists Krilin as being stronger than Yamcha, but weaker than Tien, which is alright since it isn't canon anyways

>Toei in charge of being accurate to the source material

>>50729945
I think get what you're saying under the layers of autism, but generally speaking a truly mundane, weak character will either die or be so useless that the player will get bored. It's a self-correcting issue.

On the other hand, a character that's presented as mundane, but is actually mechanically extraordinary, is just a disconnect between back story and gameplay. It's not much different than the guy whose character watched his family get slaughtered by raiders, yet has no meaningful trauma as a result. Most players are terrible at back stories at the end of the day, so shit like that is just par for the course.

>>50736908

>Third party supplemental stuff
>That counts
>Random interviews
>That counts
>In-universe events from within the official releases
>Don't count

Sure...

>>50736813
Wasn't Yamcha's thing in the android arc that he didn't though? He only showed up because "If it's as bad as timetraveller says it is, then It'd be a pretty dick move of me not to show up to do what little I can."

>>50737007
Filler is word of God not canon.

At the very least, Nappa was wrong. Krillin effortlessly kills 3 saibamen at once when Tien could barely handle one. Even the saiyans are shocked by this.

>>50737007
>That counts
I literally said it didn't count. I only brought it up because it was literally the only source from which you could have thought that other than filler scenes from the anime
>In-universe events from within the official releases
You mean within the original anime which is 75% filler, including 2 out of 3 scenes you quoted as proof. There's a reason why only the manga is usually taken into account when wanking over DBZ power levels. Kai is almost completely faithful to the manga, which is why people make fun of it for seemingly cutting everything
>Random interviews
Yes, what the author says counts

File: 1401089146810.jpg (42KB, 640x480px) Image search: [Google]

42KB, 640x480px

>>50736477
To a superhumn degree. Normal people have to train decades to master a few related skills. Batman has mastered basically every skill a human can conceivably learn. He may not be superhuman in any one thing, but his sheer breadth of experience and number of skills is beyond anything a regular human could do.

He's a master of multiple martial arts to the point that other DC characters use "I trained with Batman" as an excuse to pull any martial arts move or fighting style they want and get away with it. No one takes pilgrimages to remote mountains to be deemed worthy of and learn ancient secrets of the fighting arts anymore, because Batman's here and he'll teach you enlightenment.

He's known as the World's Greatest Detective among other titles, and can Sherlock his way through problems because he's so much smarter than everyone else. People, aliens, and computers with actual super intelligence powers are not as smart as Batman, because he actually uses his brain. Batman has plans for every possibility that exists and a ready countermeasure for each one on his person at all times.

Did you know Batman can beat everyone else in the Justice League because he's so great? He keeps all their weakness on file so he has a plan to beat them if they go evil, and only he can access it because he's the only one that will never go evil because he's so devoted to Justice!

Fuck everything about Batman and his super competence portrayals.

>>50735088
I just realized that mary sues like that become 100% acceptable to me if they just casually are being stabbed by their own overly spikey sword while still trying to look cool.

>>50729945
People like the idea of someone being more than they appear. Someone like Walter White that's incredibly normal, but has the knowledge to do scary things if he puts his mind to it. Or people like an old retiree that used to be a mercenary, most days he's another grandpa, but if push comes to shove there could be a reckoning.

I think this desire comes from the fact that most "normal" people have a variety of skills that are mechanically extraordinary in an rpg. Like if you take a botanist from florida that is handy around the house and enjoys camping, sailing, and seafood. You can have an incredibly mundane guy that is better equipped to survive in swamps and make poisons than most rpg characters. Imagine what a serious fitizen could do if they put their mind on martial training or what a normal surveyor could do if he was dragged on an adventure.

>>50735088
That's about my issue. The faggots that swear its just 100% mundane, despite having skills that push them far past.

File: 1.jpg (420KB, 1116x738px) Image search: [Google]

420KB, 1116x738px

>>50729945
Depends on the setting and system.

In my group, one of the members runs a game using OWoD (Vampire/Werewolf/etc) rules that is basically a modern "every conspiracy theory is true" campaign, and the players play as agents from a shadowy government agency called the Cabal.

All the others are playing as either cybernetically enhanced people, supernaturally gifted people such as pyromancers and vampires, or aliens like Grays and Reptilians. My character is the Badass Normal team leader, a regular dude who has an extensive military background (ex-special forces/private military contractor) that was heavily inspired by MGS/Solid Snake. He keeps up with the other guys easily, even outperforming them in some cases out of sheer practical ability.

>>50737091
This

Even Iron Man is less OP than Batman.

>>50733854
>why you can't play an ordinary human without augments or matrix bullshit in SR
You totally can tho. It's even pretty effective.

>>50736274
>>But if a guy wants to play Samwise Gamgee while everyone else wants to play Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, and Deadpool?
>implying Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas are even in the same league as Gandalf
They are closer to Sam than to Gandalf.
If you are going to complain, complain about the wizard player who spends 95% of the game doing nothing at all because his character is so overpowered and refuses to take on any of the villains himself.
Because reasons.

>>50737410
Hell, when push comes to shove and he can't get it up anymore, he casually builds the Beyond suit and becomes Iron-Man.

>>50737407
Tell me more about the setting.

>>50729945
>not wanting the heros journey, to be a farmboy who goes from killing weeds to killing dragons
>not wanting to be batman

>>50737091
You miss the point.
A badass normal is not supposed to be realistic.
He's supposed to be a fucking badass on par with the superpowered dudes while technically obeying the limits of the human body.
That's precisely what Batman exemplifies.

>>50729945
badass normal is not about superpowers, it is about having the attitude, wits and knowledge to challange things that are far stronger than you and win anyway.

mad max shows a good example of the badass normal. Max gets shot, beaten, burned and stabbed countless times, but his mental constitution makes him go on through the pain and prevail in the end

>>50737239
That's because it shows a willingness to poke fun at themselves, which is a level of self awareness Mary Sues don't have.

>>50729945
I think it depends on how it's executed.

A badass normal tends to be someone who developed or always had the wherewithal to at least bring pause to stronger or supernatural foes. It could be skill, could be knowledge, it could even being a supernatural power, just incredibly underpowered in lieu of everything else.

Touma from A Certain Magical Index has the weird, uncanny ability to dispel any sort of supernatural force with his right hand and that's it. He's a regular high-school fucker with horrible luck otherwise, and most of the time he leaves fights battered and bruised. Thing is, that power gave him the chance to stand up to a much more overwhelming force and eke out a victory.

They're not Badass Normals because they're Normal, they're Badass Normals because they find a way (or take the only way they have and succeed) even when they are Normal, at least compared to everyone else who's special.

I kinda understand why you'd feel they'd be downplaying other players but that, IMO, is ultimately up to the rest of the players and not you. Making a Badass Normal isn't the problem, it's the line between usefulness and uselessness and a failure to abstract what makes said Badass Normal candidate able to keep up. If they can be useful to the party despite more humble origins, I don't see the problem. And this definitely sounds more like a personal pet peeve than anything else.

>>50736423
>You're either confused as to what a Badass Normal is

It is that superawesome trope that is used to describe muh favorite character that doesn't have any obvious supernatural abilities (or doesn't have as much of them as other characters in setting, or doesn't use them as much, or muh favorite character can be the most supernatural thing ever but he is still a badass normal because badass normal is a cool trope and muh favorite character should be qualified for it).

>>50738239
>>Touma from A Certain Magical Index has the weird, uncanny ability to dispel any sort of supernatural force with his right hand and that's it
He also has precognition and something hidden inside his right arm that is suppressed by the Imagine Breaker.

He might also have an ESP ability. There is no way to know.

>>50738239
There's a couple varieties of "badass normal" in Index/Railgun I feel.

First is Touma. Who lives in a world of psychics and espers and his power is basically saying "no" (give or take the 'thing' inside his arm and implied precognition enabling him to react in time to block lightning bolts). He's "normal" by virtue of being the opposite of everything the setting he inhabits represents. And the magic side basically sees him as a terrifying monster due to his ability to dispel gods blessings, but he's really not much stronger than any normal guy, he's just "lucky" in that he mostly only fights the supernatural.

Then we have complete normals. Like the captains of Skill-Out (I believe), and characters like Saten. They're side-characters at best, and they're only real claim to fame is "interacting with important people", and "showing up". Despite that Skill-Out is still implied to be reasonably effective at their jobs when it's not also something that a level 5 is getting involved with, that is dealing with shit WAY above their pay grade.

>>50729945

Then what is the bloody point of being able to play a fighter!?

>>50739162
Getting extra HP before you switch to a more sensible profession.

>>50739162
>Fighter
>Badass
Well, I guess depends on the system

>>50738333
>Skill-Out
A "Skill-Out" is a gang member who's a Level 0 dropOUT from the esper SKILL curriculum. The organization of non-powered SWAT teachers who fight rogue espers is called Anti-Skill.

>>50735643
You got it right. Another thing that makes the average super actually more relatable than Saitama is that Saitama is all "look how perfectly ordinary I am" despite being thrust into a deeply abnormal context. He could punch a hole in the planet but he's content wasting his time eating budget food and watching shitty TV and doesn't react to anything until it's right in his face. He's about as relatable as Goku or one of the so-wacky deities who read manga JUST LIKE ME despite being 3 billion years old omnipotent beings.

I mean I get the humor and I enjoy it but how the fuck am I supposed to relate exactly? I can empathize with Satoru/Ainz in Overlord, I can't do that with Saitama.

>>50739220
>In Original D&D
Land, titles, a legion of men at your command, and not having to cower like a frightened rabbit until you feel healthy enough to take a poke from a crude goblin spear.
>In AD&D
The warrior is able to put out not just more consistent damage, but flat out more damage than any other class by flurrying dart throws. Also, the leadership and castles and lands and not having to hide behind mommy's skirt thing still applies.
>In 4e
Best defender. Period. No gimmicks, nothing situational, they are the wall. You shall not pass.
>In 5e
More attacks, no penalties to-hit, great fighting styles, self recovery options that keep you in the fight, action surge basically giving even a single weapon fighter up to eight attacks on their turn, the ability to reroll bad saves, and a choice between troll-lime regeneration, combat superiority maneuvers, and spell slots, because yes, 5e is where fighters are spellcasters.

File: 1467159423962.gif (87KB, 192x197px) Image search: [Google]

87KB, 192x197px

>>50729945
Basically every human is a bad ass normal.

You think bruce lee was breaking boards as a baby? No. He became badass through effort and technique. Mechanics that prevent some farmer from training for a decade and becoming an iron fisted monk are bullshit and unrealistic.