Warhammer 40,000 General

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>tfw Shriek, Shrouded, Invisibility, and Terrify on my NL sorcerer

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>>50639853

But I bet you don't run him using this model, pleb.

>>50639780
Looking for some more advice on this one

First for warpflamers being the shittiest upgrade option since the plasma pistol.

I'm not even a Thousand Sons player, I play Death Guard! That's how ridiculously costed they are.

>>50639877

You're right, but holy shit. Is that FW or something? Where can I get one? It has an LC and force axe, which is perfect.

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Hows my Alpha Legion list? 1500 points, mostly for casual play and FUN rather than just flat-out winning every time.

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>>50639833

I'm new to Warhammer 40k. I am thinking about getting the Blood Angels Start Collecting set.

Outside of the Captain can most of the other Blood Angels specific pieces be removed? I don't want to actually play Blood Angels but when it comes to armor I want the Bhaal Predator instead of the Dreadnaught.

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>>50639905

>S&P
>7ppm to give up ap3 bolter
>bonus warpflame rules

>>50639897
Get a fursuit and say "wolf", "claw", or "fang" every other word.

>>50639905
You clarly don't play orks

>>50639877
I still can't get over that this model is supposed to be a Librarian. He's a World Eater for fuck's sake and was marketed as such.

>>50639916
He is/was FW's event mini for 2016.

>>50639930
Quality advice friend

>>50639936

Fuck. Guess it's impossible to get now?

>>50639936
>World Eater Librarian

I don't know why I laughed at that.

Final draft of this list:

1500 Fluffy Dark Angels

HQ
-Chaplain, 90
+Plasma Pistol, 15
Total, 105

-Terminator Librarian, 90
+ML2, 25
+Storm Bolter, 5
Total, 120

Troops
-3x Tactical Squad, 70
+5 marines, 70
+Veteran Sergeant, 10
+Plasma Pistol, 15
+Power Sword, 15
+Plasma Gun, 15
+Plasma Cannon, 15
Total, 210 (630)

Elites
-Venerable Dreadnought, 125
+Plasma Cannon, 5
+Extra Armor, 10
Total, 140

-Deathwing Command Squad, 200
+Champion, 5
+Apothecary, 5
+Plasma Cannon, 15
+Deathwing Company Standard, 20
+2 Chainfists, 10
Total, 255

Dedicated Transports
-Land Raider Redeemer, 240
+Multi melta, 10
Total, 250

Complete Total, 1500

Multi melta on the LR is for things that are either too tough for the flamers to crack or are out of their range, Extra Armor on the Ven Dread is to ensure that everything that tries to harm him is always versus AV12 and that he can always move and fire his stormbolter. Librarian is to ride up with the Termis and either nerf the enemies or buff the squad by giving them Rage. Chaplain is just there because it's fluffy for him to lead the tacs and I like the model and for helping the Vet Sergeants with power swords in the event they end up in a challenge or assaulting/being assaulted for some reason.

>>50639934
Actually I have about 3000pts of them, they're pretty fun. I take your point though, there's plenty of shite upgrades in there too.

>>50639905
i can't talk about warpflamers but warpflame isn't that bad, but then i play daemons so i expect the dice to betray and help the enemy

>>50639944
cost like $5 from chinaman

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>>50639944
Probably, unless FW are holding him over to their early Jan events.
>be me at the May Open Day
>see that mini for sale
>oh, he looks pretty cool, maybe I'll get him since I'm already shitting my savings' bed buying a Titan today anyway
>wait what legion is that? Can't be WE since he's a Libby
>mfw

>>50639934
only 8' range
unit cannot run
unit cannot fire overwatch either.
30pts/model

Why are you scared of them?

>>50639930

What the fang did you just fanging say about me, you little wolf? I'll have you know I graduated top of my pack in the 13th Great Company, and I've been involved in numerous secret furs on Wolffang, and I have over 300 confirmed claws. I am trained in wolf wolffare and I'm the top wolf in the entire wolf.

Does anyone have that image of the forge world warlord titan being cradled like a baby by a girl?

>>50639969

I'm not adept enough to get all the info, so I don't deserve chinaman

>>50639974

I'm in burgerland, so I don't even know where to go.

>>50639996

Only other way to get it besides those methods is paying a Brit to buy one for you when they go to warhammer world or a FW event, or buying one on eBay for like $65.

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>>50639991

>>50639996
Chinaman or >>50640006 sorry mate.

>Notice that you can give Belial a TH/SS
>Oh cool! I'll put him with a squad of Knights for a T5 Belial!
>The Hunt? What's his WT do again?
>Gives Precision shots
Wow, useless Warlord trait. How fun.

>>50640006
>>50640019

Well, damn. Thanks, though.

My search for china continues I guess.

>>50639958
I rate 8/8 would take your skull for Khorne.

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Footslogging World Eaters 1850 list. Replace Dimensional Key on Lord with Talisman Of Burning Blood from WE relics for sweet +3 on movement/run/charge distance with 2D6 movement for all in the beginning. Havocs are tax for formation. Is this a viable footslogging list for WE casual play? other words am I gonna get my shit kicked in by casual/semi competitive (not WAAC) armies?

Is it wrong that I want to foot slog my nightlords that aren't raptors?

>>50640091
a little

marines without metal boxes are kind of dead meat

>>50639974
Wait, did he actually have WE shoulderpads?

If so, that's kinda retarded.

>>50640028
shame he can't throw his hammer

1750 points death guard (semi competitive) list

SONS OF MORTARION DETACHMENT

>LORDS OF THE LEGION
>daemon prince of nurgle, 3rd level, power armor, wings, spell familiar, plague skull

CHAOS WARBAND
>chaos lord of nurgle, plague bringer, bike, sygil of corruption
>5 nurgle marines, plasma, combiplasma, rhino
>5 nurgle marines, plasma, combiplasma, rhino
>6 bikes of nurgle, 2 meltas, champion with combimelta and melta bombs
>3 terminators of nurgle, combimelta and power weapons
>5 havocs of nurgle, 4 autocannons


>CULT OF DESTRUCTION
>warpsmith of nurgle
>3 oblits of nurgle
>1 oblit of nurgle
>1 oblit of nurgle
in response to the anon from 2 threads ago:
I don't particularly enjoy bikes either. I don't even think i'm gonna use this list but was thinking about how could a good death guard list look like. i am really concercned about the wargear for chaos lord and dp though, maybe I should remove some stuff and throw the black mace in.
for vector strike..... i don't usually pay attention to flyers. they are never worth the thought. but yeah, dp can strike them anyway plus I have 5 oblits on the ground to shoot at them if I must (for example wqhen I face flyrants)

>>50640099

They have stealth, though, and I am less likely to care when they die.

I just don't feel like buying bawkses because I can't use them in 30k unless they're the old style

>>50640099
>Laughing Death Guard.jpg

>>50640115
buy oldbawkses then, but you're wrong, there's pictures in the black books of the current pattern of rhinos being used(I think it was iron warriors) just grab loyalist ones that's aren't spikey and you're golden

>>50640115
Bullshit, Mars pattern vehicles are perfectly fine in HH.

>>50640133

Really? I've read people sperging out about it.

>>50640132

But I'm NL. Wouldn't I want the spikes and shit?

>>50639897
Looking for advice from lorefags that havent spurged out that a wolf gave them the bad touch

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Here ya go

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>>50639980
underrated post

>>50640172

Now you have my attention! Got any more???

>>50640172
>no Razorback
>NO RAZORBACK

REEEEEEEE I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE FUCKING SAINT BUT WHY WOULD YOU TAKE MY FUCKING PSYBOLT RAZORBACKS YOU MASSIVE FAGGOTS

Grey knights seem to have intercepter squads, the VeteranNoob review said purgation, this is good news!!!

>>50640148
>I've read people sperging out about it.
those people are wrong

>>50640106
His belt buckle has the night lords style lightning colors, so I'm guessing he's just Night Lords.

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>>50639980
>mfw

>>50640172

What is the point of the Valkyries when you can't start in them because they're their own force?

>>50640180
this does not seem like a replacement for codex grey knights so your razorback is fine. just like your captain, librarian etc

>>50640225
No, I mean Inquisition. Grey Knights haven't had psybolts for multiple editions.

>>50640225
He's talking about Inquisition you memeloving faggot. GKs haven't had psybolts since 5th.

>Psybolt Crusaders
>Psymeras
>Psybolt Razorbacks
All fucking gone
They better not fucking nerf Coteaz

>>50640113
I am that anon from 2 threads ago!

For your Nurgle DP, it depends on how you want to use it, but I don't really rate the plague skull - too expensive for what it does, especially considering the range.

Your Lord's equipment is fine, you probably don't -need- the Sigil considering you're toughness 6 with a 5+ FNP re-rolling 1s, but if you don't have anything else to spend the points on. Try to get the 3rd power on the Nurgle table, it'll imprive Plaguebringer's poison to a 2+, which will make your Lord potent in combat against anything except 2+ saves.

They dropped Servo Skulls too. And now you can only have one Inquisitor per detachment, which sucks for those that play ITC.

You do get a free WL trait though.

>>50640249
>They dropped Servo Skulls too. And now you can only have one Inquisitor per detachment, which sucks for those that play ITC.
P O S T P I C S

>>50640231
No more inquisition land raiders either.

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>>50640172
>Literally squatted celestine

>>50640253
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/12/10/codex-imperial-agents-review/

>>50640249

Because White Scars weren't broken enough you know

>>50640172
>tfw still no Red Hunter bodyguard for Inquisitors
But I just want to use my mind wiped marines that know an extreme amount of tactics to guard a superior.

>>50640180

Didn't they remove psybolt RBs from Codex: Inquisition too? Or was that GKs, and Inquisition were the last dudes to have them?

>>50640274

They don't have them because Red Hunters are FW. Although an Inquisitor should technically be able to have a single small squad of any compliant chapter he wants really. Fire Angels, Ultramarines, etc.

>>50640274
>paint deathwatch red
>use other shoulders
>have =][= symbols on armor
>mission tactics are basically Red Hunter tactics anyways

>>50640284
No, they were still in there up to now.

RIP S7 BS4 TL Assault Cannons.

>>50640261
Neat it isn't I'm fucking incandescent but where did >>50640172 come from? Are you playing games with us Anon?

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>>50640309
Oh, we're two different people.

>>50640254
At least they're keeping to the lore that Land Raiders are for marines only, I guess?

Is maelstrom of gore viable?

>>50640274
the entire point of this codex is to take allies

take

allied

space marines

you dip

>>50640327
Eh. It was an old order from the Horus Heresy that Inquisitors/Admech/Rogue Traders could circumvent if needed.

>>50640309

Bell of lost souls posted it.

>>50640344

Unless you a SoB player, welcome to your new reality.

>>50640366
You'd think, Slaanesh, that it wouldn't be possible for Sisters to be shafted in a codex with all these in-house allies options, but somehow, SOMEHOW ,you managed to fuck them over.

My friend plays Sisters and he is not going to be happy when I deliver the bad news.

>Dominion Squad comes with 2 flamers, one storm bolter, and one melta
>Dominions ignore cover
>flamers

>Retributers come with 4 Multi-meltas and 6 bolters
>Rets gain rending
>multi-meltas

GW pls

>>50640380

He should be used to suffering, so at least he has that going for him.

>>50640420

Who gives a shit bro IGNORE COVER MELTA

>>50640435

Yea. I know. I've only been playing them for 10 years. These squads are jokes.

Also, you can only buy the Banner in a $55 bundle with a bolter and a flamer.

Lol wtf GW

>>50640420
How would rending even work on multimeltas? Roll the 2d6 and if either of them come up 6 you get an extra d3, if they both come up 6 you get an extra 2d3?

Gotta pen those AV 26 vehicles I guess

>>50640471
I suppose it'd help against knights when outside of melta range.

>>50640471
Holy crap, Rending Multi Meltas are actually pretty scary like that.

Always pen Warlord Titans.

>>50640458

Also the made to order seraphim is in the seraphim box as well.

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>>50640458
Wanna know the punchline? It's false advertising, you don't even get that.

>>50640471

That's exactly how it would work. It's 100% unnecessary because S8+6+1+1= 16

As pointed out it pens AV 14 at 24" and that's it. However, that means you're within 24" of a titan or land raider.

>>50640484

Which is that?

>>50640486

Haha what the fuck. I am reminded of the old "Dominator Squad" from the WD game

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hey, anyone who got the Deathwatch box, can you tell me which chapter-specific shoulder pads are in it? The GW store page says there are 18 chapter specific pads, but not which chapters.

>>50640480
>SoB getting within 12" of a Warlord

>>50640471
A multimelta is just a 24" melta. There isn't a second shot.

>>50640501
well, there are buildings that are AV 15...

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>>50640511

Bow before my google fu

>>50640515

24"*

8+6+1=15

>>50640521

Because you need rending for that? Average on a melta at half range is still 15

On the topic of Grey Knights, what are the opinions on strong GK lists? I get the feeling that in order to be "competitive" GKs basically just run a combination of paladins, terminators, librarians, dreadknights and storm ravens. Anyone have any feedback on what could be a good GK list in 2k points? I get the feeling that GK are suffering from a lack of detachments like the rest of the armies in 7th edition have gotten. And after reading the review of Imperial Agents, it seems like GKs just get a smaller version of the NSF.

>>50640511
There's a picture of the sprue on the GW store page.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/deathwatch-kill-team

>>50640501
>Which is that?

The power sword and plasma pistol superior.

Hotly, the descriptions are all over the place, I'd love to puck up a few mor immolaters, but I'm waiting to make sure the top hatch isn't actually resin like the description says.

It's almost as if GW don't know anything about the army...

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>>50640511

>grey Knight moved to death watch
>trades storm bolter for pistol

>>50640529
Ultras
IF/CF
Bangles
IHs
Flesh Tearers
Mentors
Novamarines
Yiffs
Dank Angles
Salamanders
RG
Minotaurs
IWs Silver Skulls
fuck knows
Any shade of Templars but probably intended to be Black
WS
Howling Griffons?

Just placed my first order with chinaman for a contemptor arm and the leman russ model.

>>50640547
GKs don't serve in the Deathwatch.

>>50640546

Oh. That thing NO ONE ever used because it's a 40pt upgrade on a 15pt s3 model?

They don't know anything about them. Seriously, go read the 5th Ed WD battle report for a laugh.

>>50640563

Anon, look at that arm. That's a GK arm.

>>50640549
>fuck knows

Brazen Claws

>>50640577
>Anon, look at that arm. That's a GK arm.

That's an active duty DW arm, idiot. The only reason the old DW models didn't have this arm was because people were using non-DW models with a DW pad to represent them.

>>50640577
Anon, all Deathwatch marines have that arm.

Fluffwise, GK are implied to be the one chapter that doesn't serve in the Deathwatch.

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>>50640577
>Anon, look at that arm. That's a GK arm.
No it isn't, and you're looking at the wrong arm anyway. He's a Blood Angel.

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Could anyone rec me an alternative head for the ghostkeel?

>>50640547
That's a boltgun.

And since when does GK have red in their chapter colors?

>>50640589
>>50640590
>>50640601

Hrm. You're right. I was thinking of the Brotherhood champ, but the sword is on the wrong side, and only the terminators had the engraved shoulders.

Still, it looks like the a termie arm.

>>50640601

It literally says Xenos on the arm dude, that's the deathwatch arm.

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>>50640612

Since always? Red/White have always been their secondary.

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Is there any reason to collect a Deathwatch force over regular Space Marines?

>>50640623
Frag Cannons
Your Dudes
Frag Cannons
Cool color scheme
Frag Cannons
Collect every chapter at once
Frag Cannons
Entire army has deep strike
Frag Cannons
Infernus Heavy Bolter
Frag Cannons

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>>50640536
competitive GK tends to be libby lv 3 with staff and a relic, squad of terms with gubbins, dreadknight with flamer and sword, dreadknight with flamer and sword. at least that's what i've seen being on the other side

>>50640471
>>50640480
That's the kind of destructive power even Fuegan would be impressed by.

>>50640247
thanks man!

I actually kinda dislike normal bikes so if I wanna use them I'll heavily convert the models.
yeah the skull was more like a point sink thing, might as well remove that and the sygil to get the black mace


the only problem is that I really suck at converting stuff... I'll probably look for some help somewhere

Question: Do Deathwatch Termis have their own unique arms, or is it just the shoulderpads?

>>50640601
Has me wondering if they all have unique arms or not, because I want to give one of my Termi Command Squad guys a DW shoulderpad and/or arm, because iirc, fluffwise it's still canon that if you served in the DW you get to keep it.

>>50640623

That's like asking if there's a reason to collect GK or one of the non-vanilla marine armies over vanilla.

>>50640663

You only keep the shoulder, not the whole arm.

>>50640623
Because you prefer them to vanilla SM.

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Wew lad

>>50640686
Thanks anon!

>>50640698

Did Ad Mech teach them nothing?! I mean, I get it, it must be a bit scary to release a model for a neglected faction, but this is not something new for GW at this point.

>>50640739
Ad Mech and GSC, both sold out like crazy.

They always underestimate.

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>>50640739
>RadMech
I think you mean GSC.
>It's a runaway success!
>W-why does this keep happening? Nobody CARES about these armies!

>>50640698

>Meme army

>>50640739
>>50640749
>>50640755

If there weren't any plastic sisters coming before, pretty sure they'll happen now.

>>50640783

The only trouble is that it's not an overnight process to make new models. Sure, this might lead to plastic sisters, but expect 1-2 years before they see the light of day.

>>50640783

When will this meme die

>>50640791
Did I say soon or give a date? I meant in a similar timeframe as you.

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Is there a way to field a Berzerekers based army without FUCKING LAND RAIDERS right now? I was thinking about getting them Cultists as a meat shield.

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>>50640698
what if GW actually delayed putting out new sisters and gave them bad books to build hype? what if GW actually knew what they were doing the whole time? what if it's just crazy enough to work?

>>50640791
>>50640810

Nope, February, there were always plastics coming.

>>50640820
>still believing this meme
>even after the 99.9% ACCURATE RELIABLE SOURCE RUMORMONGERS are furiously backpedaling with "no ETA"

>>50640755

I was talking to the Manager at my local GW, they said they sold every Neophyte and Acolyte box on the planet.

They were not expecting this and had to shift production to produce more as they normally churn them out in rotation and had to break it to pump out more to meet demand.

Rolled 1, 1 = 2 (2d6)

Anon! My Venerable Dreadnought is going to fight yours in melee!
Rolling To Hit, and Penetration!

>>50640833
Hahahah holy shit.

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>>50640837

Rolled 3, 3, 1, 5, 3, 6, 6, 6 = 33 (8d6)

>>50640837
Too bad for you my man! Now, the counterattack post-errata!

>>50640828
I started shitposting Sisters in February back in July, before like 90% of rumours started, I'm going down with my ship.

>>50640841
>>50640833

Yeah, apparently that's never happened on a release before, ever. Sure, stores will run out but they get refilled by HQ.

They cleared our their warehouse, LGS were begging for more stock as well.

Unprecedented.

Rolled 4, 5, 5, 2, 6, 4 = 26 (6d6)

>>50640846
Nuh uh, anon! I still have 3 more attacks and since we both have I4 we resolve them at the same time!

>>50640849

Thanks for being honest about it.

Rolled 5 (1d6)

>>50640863
Well, fuck. I can still win, though! Rolling vehicle damage for my one pen!

Any ideas for unique and/or fun campaign/themed missions based around Tzeentch and the Thousand Sons?

Long time fan of the fluff of 40k but an absolute newfag when it comes to the tabletop. Since there are now rules for the best chaos legion (night lords) what should I look to buy in order to play them? Would the start collecting CSM be worth it if I plan to play them exclusively? What else should I add?

>>50640872
Ha! I penned and hit with all of my three other attacks, anon! Your dreadnought died! Re-roll on the pen chart since my dreadnought's venerable!

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Rolled 1 (1d6)

>>50640889
Don't think I won't do it!

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>>50640878
>he doesn't know that GW just put out official rules for the legions

You literally have no excuse to be behind the times anon.

Rolled 3, 5, 2 + 1 = 11 (3d6 + 1)

>>50640892
Ha! My dreadnought only lost 1 hull point and is only shaken! Suck it, anon!

Now I get to roll all three of mine!

>>50640855
Sisters would be in more demand too, I think.

And if I had to guess, it's because GSC and Sisters were basically memes in the fandom before they got updated shit. That plus the fanatic autists combine to sell a fuckload of shit.

>>50640878
Do NOT get the start collecting box for NL.

You want Raptors.

>>50640900
Learn to read, he didn't say are no rules, he said are now rules.

>>50640906
Looks like your Dreadnought didn't explode, anon!

>>50640910
yeah, i should probably sleep now. forgive my transgressions

>>50640906
My librarian dreadnought >i5 on the charge
is now in the fray making this a 3 way multiple combat, the rules do not accommodate 3 ways well but its all "in the spirit of the game"

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>>50640906
>>50640914
Shit, guess he goes down swinging! Pretty much sums up what happens when I use them on the table, heh.

I'll get him next time!

>>50640812
Just get a land raider you poor cunt.

>>50640925
Aw man! Guess you better roll your attacks, anon! But it's only fair if we let my dreadnought start with all three of his HP too though!

>>50640926
It's alright, anon! My mom ordered pizza!

Rolled 1, 3, 2, 1 = 7 (4d6)

>>50640925
>>50640939
Wait, since your dreadnought charged, mine gets to fire Overwatch at BS2 since I'm playing Dark Angels!

Oh, wait. S4 +1d6 can't ever pen AV12, so I guess it's pointless then! Still gonna roll because it's fun!

Man, this brings back memories of just messing around with my friends years ago.

>>50640900
Any proper scan now?

>>50640926
Wait, did Tankred really say that in the comic? I thought it was just a meme?

>>50640967

nope, just the epub

PLASTIC GREAT UNCLEAN ONE WHEN

>>50640984
>not making one entirely out of green stuff
an unworthy servant you are

>>50640974
It's obviously edited, Anon.

>tfw you realize the World Eaters legion rules makes a fluffier Black Templars army than the Black Templars rules

>>50640926
We need more dreadnought comics.

>>50640791
It wouldn't be that long. If they were serious about it 6 months tops.

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>>50640974
the unedited version is better than the meme one, honestly

dreadnoughts have earned the right to be tired of everyone's shit

>>50640982
Sweet, that's what I was asking for anyway. Thanks!

Wrath of Magnus isn't necessary now that Traitor Legions is out, yes? Fuck Daemons.

>>50640999
>tfw you can finally field a army of Zerkers and people wont laugh
Also, nice trips

>>50641017
>It's ALWAYS time for war
How can one be so based?

>>50641019
If you don't want the fuff, then yeah.

>>50641020

Well, they will laugh, considering that, with the WE rules, MoK/VotLW CSM do Zerkers basically just as well, for less points.

Same with Death Guard and Plague Marines.

>>50641030
It's true for him though, they only wake him to fight, so to him, it's always time for war.

>>50640925
Better take your turn, anon.

This is rather amusing.

>>50641035
Well, guess I should have bought more CSM. I have like 60 Berzerkers back home, but like 2 squads of normal CSM cause I fucking love Zerkies so much. But hey, at least I can say its more fluffy.

>>50641051

Just use the Berserkers as CSM. MEQ is MEQ and a full Khorne mode CSM is basically a Berserker.

>>50641012

It shouldn't take that long if people were allowed to work at max speed, but the process takes close to a year because of red tape and having to get the okay from higher ups and transferring details to different departments.

It's why new kits always have the previous year stamped on the models. Takes a year just to release the fucks after they're finished.

>>50641051

Just call them CSM, I wouldn't mind, and I doubt most others would either. A marine is a marine is a marine.

I'm dotting my old plague marine models in my CSM units too, for the same reason.

>>50641071
It wont be the same though. I will always remeber the moment when I charged a Tau gunline, and the guy missed almost all the shots, and the ones that did hit got saved. They all died to a riptide afterwards, but Khorne got enough Tau skulls to be more then happy.

>>50641079
Quick, someone bring up Eldar Windriders and explain to that Sisters memer how it actually works.

>>50641031
Nah that's alright. But fuck, not a single online converter is processing the conversion to pdf correctly. This new epub format GW uses is fucking up everything.

>>50641083
Oh, and by the way, arent Berzerkers a good pick with Maelstrom of Gore? I have enough of them, could add Kharn. I mean, FAST BERZERKERS.

>>50641101
Could you please explain yourself because I haven't a clue what you are talking about.

>>50640172

>All Grey Knights squatted except Terminators, baby carriers and Interceptors

w-what

FUCK YOU GW YOU FUCKING FAGS FUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

>>50641256
The current Eldar jetbikes you have to day were eight years in the making. They were leaked fucking forever before they actually came out and the rumors of >new jetbikes this year for reals! were almost as much a meme as Dark Eldar and later, Sisters updates.

Point is, just because GW has a new kit made and ready to go doesn't mean they will do anything at all with it. It'll take them much longer than just a few months to make a kit if they only started work on it today/yesterday.

>>50641280
No fuck you, it's already been said it's not meant as a replacement for GK or DW, what do you think you are, fucking SoB?

Inquisition got fucked too, check your PAGK privilege.

>>50641292

Sorry anon I just read the FLG review and realized I'm an idiot. I was about to post "disregard I suck cocks" tbqh

I was quite worried we'd get fucked over. I was going to start an "inquisitorial storm trooper" (acolytes in chimeras) detachment to go with my GK soon though so I hope the big I didn't get fucked too hard.

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>just made my Made To Order purchase
>check the community page
>see this image
What the fuck? Those two Terminators aren't shown in the list for me!

>>50641281

The single railgun Broadside is similar.

>>50641309
It's alright man, fuck knows I flipped out when I saw it too.
>Servo-skulls gone
>One Inquisitor per detachment
>Warbands now monkeys, (probably heavily trimmed down) Acolytes and Daemonhosts
>Chimera probably nerfed to be symmetrical to IG except without the MCV rule

A-at least there's Militarum Tempestus...

What Chaos Legion should I play? Help.

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>>50641353
Word Bearers.

>>50640651
Giant slugs anon, very Nurgley and easy to convert since it's mainly a green stuff tube.

Put some eyes on it, maybe use the rear exhausts of the bikes, job's a good 'un.

>>50641330
I just realized what they're meant to be. Inquisitors/Assassins Terminators.

Fuck they look goofy as shit. Their proportions are thoroughly fucked.

>>50641365
But Bikes go fast.

Giant slugs don't go fast.

>>50641339

>No Servitors or Servo-skulls
>No psybolt ammo for anyone anymore (obviously GK haven't had it 5ever but I had hope)

That really blows.

>>50641353

You want to hear Death Guard, I am sure.

>>50641353
Alpha Legion looks like a cool balance of fluffyness and neat tricks, but I'm not a Chaos player so I wouldn't really know

>>50641396
That sounds really cool. What units should I get as core of them? Im thinkin about getting the Dark Vengeance plus some bikers.

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>>50640486
They just realized what the model is actually called.

What's a good epub3 reader for these newfangled digital codexes for a phone?

>>50640739
God damn my lady inquisitor better still be available. >:(

>>50641407
Lost and Damned Formation and Chaos Warband formation. So DV's an alright start.

>>50641382
Giant slugs painted red

>>50641441
Those are Made to Order, they literally can't run out.

>>50640999
Yeah, World Eaters sure can take Neophytes, the one thing that most distinguishes Black Templars from other marines.

>>50641455
It's a detachment.

It's in the fucking name.

Combined Arms Detachment.

Why would they make certain things troops, if you can't use CADs?

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>Coming back to the game after the first Black Templar codex.
>No BT codex, they are now part of vanilla marines.
>Cool finally GW is reducing the marine codex.
>Codex GK, DW, SW, BA, DA.
>Maybe chaos is finally... Codex deamons, KDK, CSM, WoM, TL

What the flying fuck?! Ok maybe my inquisition is sane.

>SoB have a digits codex. Ok I guess.
>Assassins... A book for just 4 models...
>Inquistion marines have their own codex. Guess it could be worst
>SoS sweet! Some random page. Ok I guess
>Codex Imperial Agents! This might be... What fuck?! GK, DW, SoS, Assassins, SoB, Inquisitors.

It is not very consumer friendly when you start to need a bloody spread sheet in order to figure out what rules you need in order to play with your toy soldiers.

>>50641487
I deleted it cause I realized I had a full-retard moment. My bad.

>>50641488
The bloat is profitable. I wish it was simpler. Put all the good rules in one book.

>>50641455
Yes a CAD is a detachment.

So for example making a cad of EC will give you free VoTLW, +6 fnp and so on.
You only have to take the decurion if you want combat drugs.

>>50641488
This is why you play a nice neglected faction, like Dark Eldar. All a Deldar player has to think about is their codex and two Forgeworld vehicles.

>>50641488

Yeah. I can keep up with it because I've experienced every change as it happened, and I'm the kind of person who does a lot of research and data spreadsheets, but I've noticed a lot of new players or...statistically challenged players have no idea how the fuck to make an army in 7th Edition.

The funny part is despite how it's obviously way too bloated and convoluted, nobody is willing to compromise and give up things like formations and allies and reduce the game back to a playable and streamlined state. All the meanwhile complaining about how certain allies or formations are completely overpowered.

>>50641409
Attack of the fucking clones

>>50641517

And a Codex supplement :^)

>>50641514
Yeah I got it, thanks. Planning on making a WE force with IW backup, 2 CADs. Just wanted to make sure I get both Legion's tactics and won't be locking myself out.

>>50641530
>mfw he doesn't know about Supplement: Corpse Thief Claw

It's probably one of the strongest "shitty army that only has one good build" builds.

>>50641523
Since you seem to know what is ETA on new edition? Do rumors know yet?

>>50641530
Christ, is there a single faction free from the deluge of dataslates, formations, and supplements?

>>50641556

grey knights is as close as I can think of

>>50641544

That's wrong though. Corpse Thief Claw is overrated as hell. It's one unit and has all of the baggage that comes with. 99% of the time it is overkill and or/only useful as a 600+ point fire magnet. Dark Artisan and Grotesquerie are way better. Scalpel Squadron is occasionally useful.

>>50641556

Harlequins :^)
(the joke is that they're basically a supplement)

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>>50641353
Bow to the throne of skulls! Unleash the mighty warrior withing you! All shall die beneath your blade as lord Khorne grants you his strength!
>>50641389
Do not heed these lies! What glory is there in the service of the Maggot King?! Serve Khorne well and you will become an immortal champion, a prince upon the battlefield!

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>>50641517
I play SoB we are on an odd situation.

No new model, yes I know the web store exclusive new model I could not buy, but really the rest has been the same for over 10 years.

Even with the copy pasted rules since for ever I did not mind playing SoB. I could win as long player kept it waac and not full waacfag.

With Inquistion, cheap psykers where good, and Landraider Crusaders where good enough to transport Repentians or just use Death Cult assassin count as.

Now it seems Inquisition, SoB and Imperial Agents are valid codex? Since GW seems to lack a proper PR department. The cluster fuck is not fun.

>>50641523

>nobody is willing to compromise and give up things like formations and allies and reduce the game back to a playable and streamlined state

It's brinksmanship doctrine. No-one wants to be the first to give up their toys. Since everyone doesn't get updates at the same time, there will have to be the first faction that doesn't get formations etc.

And if it were in the BRB, a lot of people would be very angry that all the money they spent building formations or allies is now useless.

>>50641574
Formations themselves aren't the problem, they just legally allow you to bring a certain combo of units (that might be fluffy as fuck!). The problem is the rules themselves. Provide no rules and you're done. People can still field their miniatures but don't gain any particular gameplay advantage.

>>50641556
SoB before the Imperial Agent cluster fuck.

Their only forgeworld model was removed long ago. If it not due to chinamam I would had forgotten of this cool little tank

>>50641382
Well, there's a large difference between terrestrial slugs that we know and love, and car-sized man-eating slugs created by a Chaos God.

I'd imagine they'd move slower than a regular bike, but they wouldn't be slowed by terrain in the same way as a vehicle would.

In any case, I encourage you to not worry about the particulars. It's Chaos Blessings, I ain't gotta explain shit.

>>50641549

6th Edition landed around July 2012, 7th Edition was somewhere around middle of 2014. The gap between 6E and 7E was so short that it amazed everyone, but it's already been 2 years and GW hasn't released 8E. They also seem to be trying to prolong 7E as long as possible, making things future proof and doing things like making KDK and CSM supplements and not even updating Codex: CSM which is in 6E and was like the 1st or 2nd 6E codex, making it the oldest current codex.

The most accurate rumor guys (basically just Sad Panda and Lady Atia) said 8E is pretty much done but won't be out in 2016. It looks probably that 8E will come in 2017, as the rumored Thousand Sons and Ahriman that went along with the 8E rumors have just come out.

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>>50641569

All is decay in the end! Accept your position in the stream of life, death and rebirth! The Greatfather welcomes all who embrace his gifts!

Is there a pdf of Traitor Legions up yet?

>>50641353
>>50641356
>>50641389
>>50641396
>>50641569
>>50641597
>tfw you'd love a more comical game where the Chaos gods preen for your attention
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1AFOkCcW6U

>>50641589

That still makes the game convoluted and does nothing but give fancy names to certain combinations of units. If you want to go this route, simply change the FOC requirements. Troops can now be 0 minimum, and certain units should have a note in their selection that says they can exceed 3 squads.

>>50641607
There's the epub3 in the MEGA, but any conversion utility or online service I tried had it freeze. Same shit with Wrath of Magnus. I used Readium on Chrome but I'd kill for a PDF converter since PDFs are just easier to access and I can read them on my phone too.

>>50641523
Is not hard to figure out what you. I was just making the point that is fucking retarded to have that many books, supplements, data sheets, etc to play a single game.

I could not imagine bringing all those things before tablets and smart phones.

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>>50641596
cheers

>>50641622
Lemme take a whack at it.

>>50641651
Dark Gods be with you, Anon.

What is a good epub reader? all the programs i tried just show the background without the letters

>>50641670

R E A D I U M
E
A
D
I
U
M

>>50641670
Asked this yesterday, got pointed to Lucifox plugin for Firefox. Works okay for me.

>>50641625

An army with zero allies can require up to seven hardcover books.

- Main rulebook
- Escalation Lord of War slot
- Stronghold Assault fortification slot
- Skies of Death flyer rules
- Codex: Space Marines
- Supplement: Clan Raukaan or Sentinels of Terra
- Supplement: Angels of Death
- Forge World Imperial Armour 2:2E

>>50641452
My mistake! Ta mate.

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>>50641711
>- Skies of Death flyer rules

>>50641733

Don't forget your Space Marine psyker card deck and Space Marine special objectives deck!

I know IW love Warpsmiths but I don't have a model and I'd rather just use a Chaos Lord. Will I make other IW players EXTRABITTER upon seeing my list?

>>50641339
>One Inquisitor per detachment
I am totally okay with that change.

Inquisitors hate other inquisitors. Them getting a warlord trait even when not the warlord is a nice little compromise.

>>50641663
No dice. Every file gets stuck at 47%

>>50641751
Yeah, I had that exact problem. Caliber, yeah? Fuck sake.

Any good epub3 reader on phones at least?

>>50641733
>post yfw Skies of Death is folded into 8th

>>50641742
>Inquisitors hate other inquisitors
Firstly, Your Dudes. Secondly, that's not true anyway. Inquisitors very often work under other higher-ranking Inquisitors seeing as that's how they train to become Inquisitors in the first place. Often a conclave of Inquisitors can pursue a common goal for an indefinite period.

>>50641339
there is a possibility, if the entire codex counts as one faction, that the Henchman squad may be able to take models from the other sections, thus getting back the assassins, crusaders, priests, etc

or they might just have fucked the unit. We'll see when more info comes out

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>>50641763

Tyranids have no 'flyers' according to Skies of Death

>>50640172
->they cut out all scenario missions
But why

Is it possible to take a chaos artefact from each of the allowed artefact tables? Say I take a Death Guard artefact weapon and then take the Burning Brand of Skalathrax?

>>50641809
No because you can only ever have one relic unless you're Tau for some stupid fucking reason
t. Marinefag who enjoyed building overpriced snowflakes actually Chaosfag who's butthurt I can't take those 2 relics to get a Counts As Chaos Sister with T3 and AW+EW

>>50641800
They don't though. They have flying creatures.

>>50641809

on the same guy or in the same army?

>>50641818
But the main codex states nothing but "one per army" and the Traitor Legions supplement states: Only one of each of the following items may be chosen per army, and only one may be chosen per model.

Only one OF THE FOLLOWING, meaning 1 out of the 6 provided. Only that table is concerned, so RAW you can take one of each table on a dude, no?

>>50641763
>Secondly, that's not true anyway
What, inquisitors being largely independent operatives co-opting larger imperial organizations isn't true? GW made an entire game based around inquisitors reacting with other inquisitors like oil and water. Not to mention the piles of novels on the subject.

>Your Dudes
So take a second detachment? There's not much stopping you.

Rules reflecting the Lore of the game is something I appreciate. Inquisitors don't really play nice with other Inquisitors, and now there's a mechanical representation of it. That's cool to me.

>>50641828
The FAQ said each individual character can only ever buy one relic unless their codex specifically says otherwise, and Tau is the only codex to do so.

>>50641818
Didn't the rulebook FAQ state conclusively that no single model can take more than one artifact, no matter the faction? I'm sure I read that.

>>50641836
Fucking shite. Alright then.

>>50641833
>What, inquisitors being largely independent operatives co-opting larger imperial organizations isn't true?
Largely is the key word here.

>GW made an entire game based around inquisitors reacting with other inquisitors like oil and water
Yeah, and FFG published Dark Heresy, which I played for years. Ascension explicitly states junior Inquisitors train under their Inquisitor master, not to mention the Tyrantine Cabal or really any Inquisitorial subfaction. Saying Inquisitors don't get on is like saying politicians don't get on. They're in it entirely for the good of themselves and maybe the world, but they can play nice and (rarely) form genuine friendships if it suits them. They are still people.

>So take a second detachment? There's not much stopping you.
I'll take what is ITC for 500 points.
Next you'll say "but ITC is just a set of houserules and doesn't count!"

>>50641836
Why do Tau have this special treatment? I still do not understand why some Titans have armour values and other are Gargantuan Creatures.

Beside nids bio Titans and ork squigoth thingy every other Titan is just s big robot.

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>out of the country while this bad boy drops as a store exclusive
>not even sure if my store would stock it
>literally forced to get it off eBay for a massive markup
Kill me.

>>50641863
Because while literally every other race in the game (except Nids but who gives a shit about Nids relics?) has relics that are actually one-of-a-kind RELICS the Tau relics are just the anime superprogram that makes the pilot a special snowflake, so they can stack them for exponential snowflake power because Taufags have no self-restraint.

>>50641865
dont see the appeal of that mini

>>50641865
For a moment I thought it was some Squat model, made for one chance only thing.

God it is fucking ugly. It doesn't even seem to move inside that armour.

>>50641863
Because tau and gadgets. The relics could be standard issue. Also wraithknight, you sneaky knife ear.

>>50641865

I've had to get every limited model on eBay. Luckily I only wanted 3 of them. We've had like well over 10 by now.

>>50641860
>Next you'll say "but ITC is just a set of houserules and doesn't count!"
Yeah? Because GW doesn't take ITC's arbitrary restrictions into account when they make their rules.

It's almost like a tournament fan-errata is poked full of holes whenever the core game updates.

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>>50641902
>The Wraithknight is a GC
>Revenant Titan is a Superheavy Walker

>>50641872

It's a 30k term/cataphract apoth. I don't think a 30k term apoth even exists, you'd have to cobble together some sort of shitty 40k DA indomitus one.

I personally like the head. Some people like the dumb RT needle gun and some like the smock for some reason.

>>50641919
>Yeah? Because GW doesn't take ITC's arbitrary restrictions into account when they make their rules.

GW representatives literally asked ITC founders for feedback on the final draft of the FAQ when they visited LVO 2016, scrub.

>>50641865
Good lord that thing looks horrendous. Is this terminator armor with no back/head armor or power armor with terminator shoulders?

>>50641943
Shit I guess that means ITC's founders literally wrote the Imperial Agents codex, then.

>>50641863
>Why do Tau have this special treatment?

they should it make so the commander and bodyguard suits use one of thier equipment slots for the relics, like the crisis suits

>>50641920
>relic from the past vs the current year

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>>50640249
>They dropped Servo Skulls too.
LAUGHINGGENESTEALERS.GIF

>>50641920

because tau and elder cant play by the rules like the rest of us.

>>50641919
>It's almost like a tournament fan-errata is poked full of holes whenever the core game updates.

The whole point of the tournament errata is to fix problems GW creates, so that would kind of be the point. GW always makes bad rules, so why is it to the detriment of erratas that this is the case? Are computer patches stupid because they need updates every time you get a new virus?

>>50642025
or maybe it's that ITC's restrictions aren't all good, and adhering to them religiously in casual play is ridiculous.

>>50641680
Can confirm, just installed it, all my epub woes are resolved

>>50640420
>sistersfags get ignores cover meltas and rending bolters and fucking complain about it
I cannot believe you guys are worse than Chaos.

>>50642061

Where did I complain about the rules you fucking moron? I complained about the retarded squad compositions GW is selling on their site.

>>50642061
The point of that post is they don't get meltas.

>>50641611
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iu2-0WKs9pc

>>50642088
wow I remember playing that

>>50642077
You can just buy them seperate.

>>50642088
The fuck Khorne? Calm down.

>>50642124

Just telling it how it is

I'm having a bit of a conundrum, and I'd like some advice from other chaos fags. My problem is with Night Lords. I want to run a Murder Talon, but the fact that both the Warband and the Raptor Talon are core means I need an aux. I want to stay fluffy, but that knocks out a lot of options.

How well would a Murder Talon + TAF work? Obviously, they all can't deep strike, which is fine. However, it's a bit fluffy because of the whole Atramentar thing they had going.

The other option is of course just going CAD and taking advantage of troop raptors. Is it worth losing the benefits of the Talon?

>>50642142
their both full of shit though. Khorne wants your skull and nurgle will make you wish you were dead.

>>50642195
Can't you take a Heldrake or the formation for an Auxilliary?

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>>50642206
>Khorne wants your skull

So? It's his to claim. You won't need it when you're dead and if you're dead, you must have fucked up somehow.

>nurgle will make you wish you were dead.

Nope, you'd be pretty happy about it all, actually.

>>50642219

Yea, I have to take two, but I'd rather have friends.

>>50642061
You do know that he was talking about the bundle.

Also in order for a Dominion squad to ignore cover once in a game they need to pass a Ld check.
Same goes for the Retribution.

Fucking chaosfags. Stop trying to bring down people like some gender study college girl.

IW Chaos Lord with Fleshmetal Exoskeleton and a Sigil of Corruption.

3W, 2+/4++/6+++ IWND. T4 though. Problem is he'd be footslogging as the only model I have spare is a dude in terminator armour.

>>50641382
>he dosent know about racing snails
if snails can be fast, so can slugs

>>50642230
Please source me a happy plague marine, they are always nihilistic cunts. His daemons are happy.

>>50642260
Those are just the plague marines, them and the Plaguebearers are a bunch of dour cunts.

There's plenty of happy mortal nurgle followers around.

>>50640172

No Repressor (the only good Rhino variant), Disappoint!

>>50642233
Fair enough, just if you wanted to, you could play purely Raptors and Heldrakes for a swift Ld-based fluffy NL list.

Spawn would be easiest and cheapest but it wouldn't make sense. TAF would be your best bet, yeah.

Does the masque really not count as a herald of slaanesh?

Why gw?

How can I scratchbuild a CSM bike? If it matters, it's for an Iron Warriors Chaos Lord.

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Should I bother running a 20man Talisman squad for a Maelstrom of Gore formation? I know they might get blasted to bits if they wipe what they're charging but fucking 81 S5 attacks on the charge sounds fucking juicy.

>>50642318

because Slaanesh BTFO the masque so all the other's laugh and point at her

>>50642289

Trust me, I'd love to do that, even if half of 40k ignore fear. However, flier spam isn't exactly a good way to keep playing games.
I just wish the murder talon had a chosen detachment to be reminiscent of Terror Squads or something. Oh well.

How wrong is it to run raptor troops with a bunch of chosen?

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Coming this January (pre-order Dec 31st), Armoured Assault Boxes! Basically a unit of infantry and a delivery vehicle.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/11/coming-this-january-armoured-assault/

These are:

>10 Tactical Space Marines and a drop pod.

>10 Tactical Blood Angels and Rhino

>10 Tactical Dark Angels and Rhino

>10 Grey Hunters/Blood Claws Space Wolves and a Drop Pod

>10 CSM and a Rhino

>10 Boyz and a Trukk

>5 Dire Avengers and a Wave Serpent

>10 Guardsmen and a Chimera

>12 Termagants, a Ripper and Tervigon

>Necron Warriors, an Ark and some Scarabs

>10 Kabalites and a Raider

>10 Firewarriors, 3 drones and a Devilfish

No word on price yet, but you'll probably see savings.

>>50642401
>12 necron warriors, an Ark and 3 Scarabs

>>50642401

Holy shit. It only took them forever.

Also obligatory:
>plastic sisters are coming for real guys!
>yet another perfect opportunity with no plastic

Are there any hidden models in 7th ed? Like in age of sigmar there are models you cant buy on their website and their rules are in some not-well advertised small supplements. Is the same true for 40k?

>>50642397
It doesn't seem bad to me from a gameplay perspective. You got your speedy CCers and you got your ranged special weapon guys. I just don't know about fluff as my Chaosfagging is mostly reserved to the Thousand Sons, brother.

>>50642401
That's pretty cool - any idea what price point they'll be?

>>50641865

Looks like shit.

Looks like

>Space Warrior Captain Commander in Haz-mat armor

Urgh

>>50642417

that is how their sprues are cut

>>50641865

>Wearing Terminator Armour, Tactical Dreadnought Armour, that allows its wearers to walk into Plasma Reactors
>Quick, strap on a flak vest.

lol, what were they tinking

>>50642437
I'm guessing here but 30$ savings, so you'd be paying around 50$ for a SM Tac Squad and a Pod.

>>50642455
Wasn't complaining, just fixing that I didn't have numbers on that one.

File: useless.jpg (106KB, 661x916px) Image search: [Google]

106KB, 661x916px

Thanks, BoLS for showing us rules that SoB *already* have.
Literally nothing new in this book
gib plastics gw

>>50642401
>10 fire warriors

those are pathfinders

>>50642483
February, Anon. February.

>>50642473

ah gotcha

around $50 looks pretty good for a lot of these

>>50642485
Oh shit so they are. Everyone else got troops, so I didn't look too closely.

File: proo.png (33KB, 899x547px) Image search: [Google]

33KB, 899x547px

>>50642486

>>50642486
Yesterday I took my army to GW, played a game against SM. There were actually 3 other sisters players there to get a cannoness that I had never seen before.
February can't come soon enough. Need a new project past scratchbuilding SoB rhinos to look more interesting

>>50642431

It's a shame what happened to them. I was hoping for something better, for them.

Anyway, I'm thinking melta raptors and plasma chosen in a rhino for a cad with a flying lord and flying sorcerer rolling telepathy. Part of me wants a big huge raptor squad of like 15, but that's probably a bad idea. Maybe 5, 5, and 10 for the characters.

>>50642502
Been saying this shit since July, I don't need proof. I just need false hope and blind faith, same as my Sisters.

>>50642428
Anyone? Not knowing is killing me.

>>50642401
>been planning on getting a box of CSM and a rhino
>now can get them both in the same box and possibly for cheaper

I'm ok with this.

>>50642514
It's called Forge World.

>>50641409
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginifer

Also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquilifer

>>50642401
>10 Grey Hunters/Blood Claws Space Wolves and a Drop Pod
>Everyone gets useful vechicle that can do stuff in addition to transport
>Wolves just get podded
Why is this allowed

>>50642401
>10 Guardsmen and Chimera

We already have that box, it's called Armoured Claw. Does that mean we get another price
cut for Mech Guard? I might consider starting a Guard army if this keeps up.

Also
>No 10 Skitarii and Dunecrawler....
Waiting till March for a shot at an expensive FW transport is unfun.

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What makes a good Iron Warriors list?

Oblit spam the only way?

>>50641368
>Assassins Terminators.

No, just Inquisitors in terminator armour.

>Fuck they look goofy as shit. Their proportions are thoroughly fucked.

Welcome to the 80's, kid.

>>50642554
>complaining your bundle comes with the second most powerful and useful transport option out of all of them behind the Necrons Ghost Ark
Yes I'm sure the Orks are much better off with their Trukk.

>>50642537
Can you be more specific? I know that forge world does some of the bigger or fancier models but they are pretty upfront about it. I want to know if there is something easy to miss, like legacy scrolls in aos or perhaps some special weapons/formations posted on gw twitter or god knows what.

>>50642558
>>No 10 Skitarii and Dunecrawler....
Its called "Start Collecting Skitarii", anon.

>>50641330
>Emperor's finest
>literally a daemon right in the middle
Corpse-worshippers BTFO.

>>50642592
Why, what are you looking for?

If you're asking about Formations yeah there are a number of them that are only available through ordering certain GW web bundles and aren't printed in any books.