WHAT THE FUCK? Is he really dead? wtf I hate GW now

Fuck this Primarch wank, the best Primarchs are the ones that have been irrelevant for 10,000 years. They should have no relevance as anything but unimportant background fluff.

>>50626230
WE

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>>50626280
HE'S CAUCASIAN REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>50626230
What the fuck are you talking about? How is the 'immortal' primarch dead?

>>50626323
He apparently lost his immortality last time he was killed in HH.

Then The Beast Arise series came out, and in "Hunt for Vulkan" he comes back and leads imperial troops and spess muhreens against orks, and subsequently gets vaporized along with one of the orks contituting "The Beast" (spoiler alert: Thw Beast is 7 different orks).

More over, as I recall, the ork survived, so he died for nothing, even if he wrecked shit hard in that book.


Salamanders and Imperial Fists believe he survived, but he was declared dead by imperial records. And he might just be dead.

>>50626230
Don't worry OP, he'll be black

>>50626382
>the ork survived, so he died for nothing
Is this the new low among dead primarchs?

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>>50626400

>>50626382
>nd subsequently gets vaporized along with one of the orks contituting "The Beast" (spoiler alert: Thw Beast is 7 different orks).

No, the Beast that fought Vulkan survived. If the Beast survived the explosion, then so can a Primarch.

>>50626446
I fucking hope so, because it'd be >>50626433

And Vulkan as the second best primarch deserves better.

>people still think the primarchs are invincible gods who no one can touch
>people still don't realize how powerful orks can get

>>50626434
For some reason I'm in stitches with this response.

>>50626230
Wait, Vulkan is dead? But what about the memes?

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>>50626687
no more memes for you

>>50626469
who do you think id best?

>>50627820
Sanguinius duh

>>50626230
No.

VULKAN LIIIIIVES

VULKAN LIIIIIVES

>>50626687
"He who has memes may live for a long time, but the memes will live forever." - Old Russian proverb (slightly adapted)

>>50626230
I guess you might say the future is looking grimmer, but less dark.

>>50626230
Nah, Vulkan lives.

GW will bring him back for their upcoming 40K End Times, along with Russ and Jaghatai and possibly Robot Gilligan.

>2 primatch threads

What the fuck is so cool about these guys? BL expanding on the horus heresy is the biggest mistake they ever did

>>50626544
>anon is easily entertained
I don't know what I expected.

>>50626477
>people don't realize how tough primarchs can get

>>50628182
Yeah? Well what ever you like is for faggots.

>>50628111
>anon fails to mention the one primarch that is explicitly still alive
I'm not mad at you I'm just disappointed.

>>50628111
Raven Raven should be somewhere with Russ and Biker Man

>>50626230
>2016
>Still caring about what GW or BL says
You deserve all buttflustering they inflict on you.

>>50627820
Sanguinius. Even though Salamanders are my favorite legion, I gotta admint Sang boy supremacy.

>>50627820
>>50627831
>>50629038
Yeah, gonna have to agree with these fellows. The Blood Angels sure as fuck aren't my favorite legion, but Sanguinius really was the objective best primarch.

>>50628354
So perhaps you can help me, cause its a problem I've been having with 40k fluff of late, what's the point in anything if Primarchs and the Emperor can solo everyone?

I mean if no-one but the Primarch and the Emperor are ever allowed to beat each other, what do any other factions get? Or is everything just a sideshow to the Emperor and Primarchs? Where's the fun in that if you don't play Imperium?

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>>50629038
>>50629229
Literal faggots. He was destined to become khorne's fucktoy. He's lucky he died like a bitch instead.

>>50629491
Nah man, Sanguinius was legit uncorruptible. The true angel of death.

>>50629488
Idk whatever point the writers try to make? Primarchs are meant to be stupidity strong. They've beaten some of the toughest enemies the galaxy can throw at them.
But you're wrong in saying they can solo everything. Most primarchs can't beat the darkness in their hearts. That's why chaos was able to beat them and recruit them.

>>50629509
Lmaoing at you. He didn't trust the master of mankind. He was willing to fall to chaos to save his legion. He was in khornes sights to be his. He was the true red angel.

>>50629577
So what about Orks, Eldar, Necron, Tyranid, Tau? They don't get strong? Primarchs and Emperor are the only ones allowed to get strong?

>>50629666

Duh. Fuck xenos! HFY!

>>50629710
Why did I expect anything different from this place.

>>50629745

I actually agree with you. I apologize. I should've put my post in quotation marks to demonstrate I was being sarcastic.

I positively hate the anti-xeno memes/roleplay that gets taken to retarded lengths. The setting needs stronger xeno characters and more xeno victories because right now it might as well be Marinehammer with all the wanking of the Imperium GW does.

>>50629666
Ork civilization runs by wishes coming true. Eldar can see the future and also have the the best psykers overall. Tyranids haven't even entered the galaxy fully yet so we don't even know what shit they are capable of. The necrons have actual gods tied to a rope that they can unleash on whatever poor sap looks at them wrong and can even turn off stars with their magical galactic circuit board and have that one guy that can go back in time and rewrite history as he sees fit. The tau? Well my favorite race will duct tape a riptide to a ghost keel and mass produce them. Codenamed the 'tsunami'. surfs up, gue'la.

>>50629666
>Orks
The Beast? Other big-ass orkoids?

>Eldar
Phoenix Lords

>Necron
C'tan?

>Tyranid
Hive mind solo everything though

>Tau

lol

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>>50629866
>and have that one guy that can go back in time and rewrite history as he sees fit
wat, I feel like I missed something in the lore.

>>50626230
He's a Primarch. They retcon Primarchs all the time. They didn't even show him die.

All loyalist Primarchs are either unconfirmed dead, in status or disappeared. Moving Vulkan from one bracket to another is hardly a reason to be upset.

Just to see the reaction, I hope they bring back Ferrus Manus and The Night Haunter in a 40K box set, and have them kill each other.

>>50629769
Oh, sorry, recently its become tough to tell the actual jokes apart from the serious/trolling whatever.

>>50629866
My comment was in response to people's disbelief that the Beast could defeat a Primarch. Personally I would like it and I accept fluff such as the Orks on Goro at face value but I also know many do not and that creates a phenomenon of making the Primarchs and Emperor appear to be untouchable.

Also Eldar are not the best Psykers overall, humans are definitely that, and they have a very bad track record with predictions.

>>50629907
Again I'd agree about the Beast, I was talking about others who did not. I am perfectly happy to imagine Orks can simply grow to be that tier of power in rare cases.

However, again, Phoenix Lords are simply not on Primarch level. Sadly, because I believe they are a cool concept, they are not even on Chapter Master level in the fluff.

Also the Hive Mind, though I do agree with you in principle, I have no doubt that BL in fluff would, if they engaged, make the Emperor and quite likely Magnus capable of overwhelming it. That is speculation though, so I'm not disputing your actual point.

>>50630012
Orikan the diviner.

>>50628111
You forgot about the Lion and Corax

>>50628362
>implying anon likes anything

>>50630131
Everybody forgets about Corax.

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>>50630156

>>50630082
>humans are the best psykers
Wtf am I reading?

>>50630254
Within the Master of Mankind the Emperor confirms Humans are more psychically powerful than Eldar.

Additionally Eldrad is the strongest Eldar Psyker whereas Alpha-level human Psykers are not even the strongest human Psykers;

Yet Eldrad cannot even tear a Marine in half with his psychic, an Alpha-level Psyker can tear Titans in half. Furthermore Magnus, Malcador, Lorgar, The Emperor are all humans and several leagues above Alpha-level Psykers

>>50629488
I'm guessing you mean to ask if other factions have Primarch equivalents or those who can fight on that level?
Yeah, they do. Eldar Phoenix Lords/Eldrad, that Dark Eldar Incubi guy, that Necron Stormlord guy, Kairos Fatewaver and other named Greater Daemons, Orks have the Beast. All those guys can fight on Primarch level, while Tyranids and Tau can sorta cheat- 'Nids could send in the Swarmlord+an entire Hive Fleet while Tau could drown 'em in battlesuit spam. Then again, at the rate the abilities of Tau tech and Nid biology increase, they could get them easier.

>>50630280
>Emperor confirms Humans are more psychically powerful than Eldar.

Okay, call me crazy, but I think the Emperor might have a bit of a bias against Xenos.

>>50630280
>Within the Master of Mankind the Emperor confirms Humans are more psychically powerful than Eldar.

You illiterate racist. He said that humanity is evolving into a race that's most psychically powerful than the Eldar. Humanity isn't there yet. They are still shit tier psykers generally

>>50630280
The emperor couldn't even beat drach'nyen. Also someone saying things doesn't make it true. Eldrad has called emps a weakling. Doesn't make it true.
Humans have powerful psykers, yes that's true. But every craftworld eldar is a psyker and the average eldar is a much stronger.

>>50630254
The strongest human psykers>strongest Eldar ones. Only the Eldar gods (past, present and future) could hope to take on the likes of Magnus in a psychic duel.
However, ALL Eldar (bar DEldar) are low-key Psykers and have much better control than human psykers, so that 99% of Farseers and Warlocks could easily match your typical Marine Librarian or Chaos Sorcerer.

>>50630156
Corax is just too stealthy for his own good

>>50626230
>I hate GW now
>now
Confirmed for not knowing about anything GW has done in the last decade.

>>50630353
Phoenix Lords and Eldrad are not Primarch tier at all. Drazhar similarly is nowhere near a Primarch. Kairos died to Lion, as Ka'Bandhha died to Sangy. The major Greater Daemons are also not Primarch Tier.

The Beast is, I agree, even if others do not.

>>50630383
The point still stands. Alpha level Psykers are stronger than Eldrad. There are furthermore much stronger Human Psykers than Alpha-level Psykers.

>>50630435
That is not true. In fluff Marine Librarians consistently and regularly get the better of Farseers and Warlocks (particularly Warlocks don't belong here). And Tigurius has a MUCH better track record with successful predictions than Eldrad even (supposedly the greatest Eldar seer ever)

However, I agree, without a doubt Magnus, The Emperor, Malcador, Lorgar, really any Psychic Primarch is far stronger than all the Eldar Psykers

>>50626230
He was sacrificed so that we may get the ultra badasses known as the beast

Also
>now
KEK
Have you not been paying attention to anything outside of 40k?

>>50630401
>Eldrad has called emps a weakling.

Source?

>>50630577
It wasn't actually Eldrad. A captured Ranger says something to the effect of 'Eldrad tried to warn that weakling Emperor of yours' nowhere does Eldrad say it directly,

>>50626382
>Died fighting a basic bitch ork.
Pathetic.

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>>50626245
This desu.

>Primarchs. He wanted to spit at the thought of them. Useless, flawed creatures. Let the dead ones decay in poetic scripture throughout history’s pages. Let those that survived dwell in the highest eyries of the immaterium, singing the ethereal praises of mad gods. He had a war to win, unshackled to failures from a time of legend.

>>50630577
>>50630604
Yeah, a Ranger. Pic related, from Eldrad's entry in the 3e Eldar codex. The same edition also had Eldrad himself refer to the Emperor as a corpse in Codex: Eye of Terror, but hey, he wasn't wrong.

For once.

>>50630604
that's just bantz

>>50630441
Specializations were a mistake.

>>50626305
Weren't they actually black way back when?

>>50627991
>VULKAN LIIIIIVES
>*Stomp Stomp*
>VULKAN LIIIIIVES
FTFY

>>50631272
Once you go back you'll see they were black

>Taking anything black library says seriously, when the company that owns them literally ignores them

wew lad
e
w

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>>50626230
VULCAN LIVES
U
L
C
A
N

L
I
V
E
S

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>>50632590
I guess?

>>50632767
Im unclear on what that is supposed to be showing?

There's only ONE thing that defines who's a more powerful psyker than whom and it's GW crunch.

BL fluffaggots kill yourself.

Mastery Level is everything.

>>50632767
That's FW, not GW.

Just as WHOCARES and NOTCANON as BL.

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>>50630353
just imagine if tyranid get to nom a primarch
oh god it would be awesome !

>>50633206
Black Library is canon, faggot. Deal with it.

>>50633230
>The Emperor’s Children were one of the first units to defect to the Warmaster. The Legion’s Primarch, Fulgrim, and his highest ranking officers, were corrupted by the decadent pastimes that Horus and his Chaos-worshippers offered. Drugged, pleasured beyond endurance, and finally broken, they agreed to aid Horus. The rot quickly spread to the whole Legion, and the Emperor’s Children willingly embraced the gratifying worship of Slaanesh.

Traitor Legions by GW by the way. How well does this fit in with BL fluff?

>>50633230
I don't think so, Tim.

>"Everything" cannot be canon, for that's like saying "yes" and "no" are both true - or that Tau have hooves (actual GW minis) as well as feet ("Xenology"). Where contradictions arise, one source is obviously either wrong or supersedes the other. George Mann - the Head of Publishing - has made it a little bit clearer than Marc Gascogne, who is "just" an author. The following is from the 2008 GW Annual Meeting, where he was confronted with this very question:

>In further conversation, George emphasized that Black Library’s main objective was to “tell good stories”. He agreed that some points in certain novels could, perhaps, have benefited from the editor’s red pen (a certain multilaser was mentioned) but was at pains to explain that, just as each hobbyist tends to interpret the background and facts of the Warhammer and 40k worlds differently, so does each author. In essence, each author represents an “alternative” version of the respective worlds. After pressing him further, he explained that only the Studio material (rulebooks, codexes, army books and suchlike) was canonical in that is HAD to be adhered-to in the plots and background of the novels. There was no obligation on authors to adhere to facts and events as spelled out in Black Library work."

Literally only Black Library employees disagree (Goulding and faggot ADB), despite the fact that GW outright ignores their "canon".

>>50633341
It doesn't and that's just the way it should be.

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>>50632945
It's an extremely explicit reference to the first Horus Heresy novels. Anathames did not exist before Horus Rising, nor was Horus wounded by a magic sword enchanted specifically to kill him before False Gods.

>>50633206
I know the current CSM codex isn't particularly well regarded, but Jesus.

>>50633341
That's just GW copying old lore with no regard for whether it jibes with later stuff (which in many cases is itself pretty old by now). Like how in 'modern' fluff the pre-Heresy World Eaters were "renowned for their unswerving loyalty", as they were in 1st and 2nd editions, even though one would think Index Astartes killed that notion.

>>50633653
>That's just GW copying old lore with no regard for whether it jibes with later stuff
No its GW shitting on BLs 'were the ones who decided the canon, plz buy our books' approach.

>>50633230
and like every piece of GW canon, it's all half truth and half lies that will get retcon to oblivion by the next book release just as they themselves contradict previous fluff

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>>50633711
Well, okay.

>>50631272
No.

Originally they were white, until like 2nd edition or so. The original Tu'Shan art had him as clearly meant to look white and now have glowly eyes and shit.

Circa ~3rd edition there was an army on parade in White Dwarf where the guy painted his Salamanders as black. It inspired the GW team to give them something different and in the Index Astartes articles that came out shortly after it was retconned that they were coal black from Nocturne's radiation.

true story.

>>50632284
Heh

>>50630156
Well then hey, at least his weird genetic mutation is still working.

>>50629907
The Tyranids also have Swarmlord.

>>50635317
>punched to death by calgar

>>50626230
>Vulkan
>death
VULKAN LIVES!!!

>>50626433

Nah, Vulkan has been killed by a fork before. Also, Guilliman almost got killed by ten marines.

>>50630082
>Phoenix Lords are simply not on Primarch level

Yeah, they're a step up. Primarchs go to the warp to never be seen again. Maugan Ra goes there when he needs a new gun or to drag an entire craftworld out. He's been to the warp and back he's got frequent flyer miles. Whereas primarchs have never single handedly defeated entire armies, PLs have banished entire Daemon infestations and killed Nid swarms themselves.

>they are not even on Chapter Master level in the fluff.

A regular Banshe Exarch killed the Mortifactors Chapter Master. Easily.

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>>50630280
>Yet Eldrad cannot even tear a Marine in half with his psychic, an Alpha-level Psyker can tear Titans in half.

Try reading Eldrad's codex entry sometime:

>>50630544
>Ka'Bandhha died to Sangy.

He also kicked his ass and beat him with a WWE backbreaker before killing his entire army so hard the psychic blowback knocked him the fuck out. He is on his level.

>>50629599
Chaos fags please leave, you're the second worst faction in 40k (Tau is still worst.)

>>50629769
>Imperium wank
Dude everything is Chaos wank right now

>>50637225
>Whereas primarchs have never single handedly defeated entire armies

This is literally what they did all Crusade/Heresy.

>>50637289
Yeah then Sangy broke Ka'Bandha's back over his knee

>>50626230
He is not dead you twat.

>>50637610

Source. They often held the line single handedly, but they never soloed an entire army.

>>50637630

So, they're on the same level. Though I reckon knocking someone out by soloing their entire army is way more humiliating. Lucky for Sangy he was attention deficit and didn't finish the job.

>>50635317
more like Tyranids have hierophant.

who needs some retarded named characters when you can just throw hierophants at the obstacle

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>>50633206
This is straight from Codex CSM desu

>>50630566
The Beast were hardly badasses. The only one who ever talked sounded like a generic Chaos Lord (hardly any Orkiness) and they all died anticlimatically to an easy to perform trick rendering most of their 'danger' factor null.

The Primorks are strong one-on-one combatants, sure, but they have such a crippling weakness that they are easily dealt with without ever having to resort to one-on-one comabt

>>50637225
Phoenix Lords have died to Dreadnoughts and Grenades.

To my knowledge the only Primarchs confirmed dead; Ferrus died to another Primarch. Other than that Kurze allowed himself to die (thus doesn't count) and Horus took the Emperor to obliterate.

Anon I really like Phoenix Lords too, and Maugan Ra is the best of them by far in the Fluff, and personally think they should AT LEAST be Primarch Level with the amount of souls and experience they have as War Priests who don't do anything but constant hone their Aspect.

But in Fluff they just aren't.

>>50637269
Still puts Eldrad below Malcador, the Emperor and any Psychic Primarch.

The fact remains that despite their Codex vauntng their innate and superior psychic as being the one of the main schticks of the Eldar Race, the Eldar themselves do not even once place in at least the top 5 Psykers in the setting.

>>50637596
How? Even Magnus returning at the head of the full united might of the Thousand Sons Legion could not defeat the Space Wolves.

How is it Chaos Wank right now? The Siege of Fenris was won by the Imperium, again. Magnus achieved only tertiary goals, he lost the actual military battle, and those tertiary goals only allow for more battles which, since this is GW, will simply be more fluff supplements in which, again, Chaos loses. Like it did on Pandorax, in Diamor and in Fenris.

Consider that the first Daemon Primarch to reappear, Magnus, is defeated by Logan Grimnar and a group of Grey Knights whereas the chronologically last Loyalist Primarch to appear, Vulkan, was singlehandidly destroying an entire planet of Orks. Beast Orks too, so they were stronger, smarter, more psychically powerful and more well-equipped than regular Orks

>>50639648

Phoenix Lords would never rival the Primarchs in raw strength and physical endurance. They should be able to surpass them in terms of speed and martial prowess given enough time, but the Daemon Primarchs have also had 10,000 years as well.

>>50639685
I feel that you grossly miss read the undercurrents of that book. Also expecting a victory that would result in a faction being removed from the game is retarded. Its why everyone was in an uproar about Death Masque.

Vulkan may or may not be dead. Pretty lame if that's how he goes out after surviving everything Kurze threw at him.

Anyway, dead Primarchs:
Ferrus, decapitated by Fulgrim, then cloned 1000 times by Fabius, to be again decapitated by Fulgrim

Horus, utterly annihilated by the Emperor and yet somehow recreated by Fabius, eventually killed by Abaddon's war party.

Sanguinius, died to create chink in Horus's armor, may be partially reincarnated as Sanguinor

Kurze, had mental breakdown due to being bipolar, let himself be killed to salvage some face

Alpharius, killed by Dorn in worst plan ever. Omegon may have been killed by Guilliman, but records are disputed so probably still at large

Dorn, pulled down and torn to shreds on a Chaos Space hulk

Those are confirmed dead.

Lion and Guilliman are presumed dead but the former is definitely healed to 100% and the latter may be healing.

Corax, Khan and Russ all lost in the Warp.

Traitors are all doing just fine.

>>50639708
However, Phoenix Lords, like Asurmen, occur immediately after the Fall. This means that he, and Jain Zar at least since we know he found her relatively soon, have many more years in which to train.

Furthermore the Primarchs have pursuits unrelated to combat at tmes, Roboute practises being a bureaucrat and administrator, Magnus studies scholarly texts and Ferrus and Vulkan both train as artisans.

By contrast Phoenix Lords do nothing but practise in their art of warfare non-stop for 10 000 years. They have no other pursuits since they are consumed by a single Aspect of Warfare and have nothing else to their lives.

Not, I should note, that I'm even comparing them to Daemon Primarchs. Right now I'm simply comparing them to regular Primarchs.

Although I have no doubt that if Loyalist Primarchs return BL will have them defeat Daemon Primarchs in fights

>>50639740
>Everyone was in an uproar over Death Masque.
I honestly missed that.

Regardless, the destruction of a homeworld, or military loss thereupon, does not necessitate the destruction of the faction. If that were true the Dark Angels and all Traitor Legions should be destroyed but they are not.

>>50639767
Perhaps you dont know SW lore very well but they can only recruit from Fenris. They are tied genetically to Fernis's population to recruit. They were trying to fix this until canonically Magnus stopped this that last time he invaded.

They could have them turn into a Fleet based chapter after saving some of the population, however this was unlikely after all the background detail in the SW codex about Fenris's population.

Eldar psychic powers, although having plenty of military applications, lean towards empowering weapons, transferring souls, and really bad divination.

Top end human psykers practically rewrite reality around them, which is why we are the Gods' favorites.

>>50639759

Eldar are afflicted by the typical elven trope of slow progress and stagnation. You can see this happen as they've developed zero new technology and have done zero great deeds besides building Craftworlds in 10,000 years.

A primarch training nonstop in warfare for 10,000 years will be a billion times ahead of an eldar lord doing the same. Horus was only 200 years old or so.

>>50639803
As I said, Eldar Psykers are weaker than human Psykers

>>50639912
As I was said, Phoenix Lords are simply weaker than Primarchs. Glad to know the fluff establishes Eldar are just pathetic compared to humans

>>50640048
>primarchs
>humans

They're literally demi-gods.

>>50639800
All the background detail about Craftworlds in the Craftworld Eldar Codex didn't stop them from squatting Craftworlds

>>50640053
>demi-god
In the context of 40k what does this mean? Phoenix Lords are the incarnations of Aspects of a War God (or more in Asurmen's case) does this mean they too are Demi-gods?

Or are humans the only beings permitted to become Demi-gods? Continuing the setting's trend of relegating everything that is not a Primarch or the Emperor to the bylines.

>>50640056
Yeah and in my opinion that was a huge, huge fuck up. Do you think differently?

They will retcon that event somehow, either the soul that failed to join the shard go back to the craftworlds or something of the sort.

>>50640082
No, I don't think differently, I just think allowing a faction other than the Imperium to win in one of these major narrative supplements would be refreshing for a change.

Oh, and for factions without Primarchs and Emperors to still have some relevance.

>>50640104
And when I say faction I should more specifically state Craftworld Eldar since they are in the need of SOMETHING the most right now

It is quite frustrating when the primary skill of the faction, psychic and prediction, is something they are vastly inferior at than the Imperium

Angry Khornate Primarch best Primarch

>>50640116
>>50640104
Tau won. Magnus just got way more out of this then the SW. The Necron one was one of the worst campaign books ever released.

Eldar got fucked over everyone knows that mate. The problem with the elder/human psyker thing is this. The human win condition is for everyone to become super psykers. Eldar already being that are shown as a step down from the A list human psykers as a worf effect. The psychic prediction shit is just because stories with accurate predictions are boring and are decided without the input of either characters.

>>50640175
>Tau won.

They won the ground war but the Imperium turned their victory to ash (literally) by burning the planet and igniting the Damocles Gulf into a firewall. And before that they killed their pope.

>>50640175
Tau won in Kauyon, Mont'ka was a tie at best (and the book describes it as a defeat). Magnus still could not defeat the Space Wolves militarily even with all the odds stacked in his favour and the Space Wolves no longer being a Legion with a Primarch, Custodes or Sisters of Silence.

And what of Sanctus Reach? Or Traitor's Hate/Angel's Blade? Even the Shield World's Supplements are refered to throughout the material as an Imperium victory.

Also, your reasons for why the Eldar suck is fine, probably right to an extent at least, but hardly changes that they suck.

Besides Tigurius as many 'all as planned' moments where he correctly predicts the actions of Orks and counter-acts them so I hardly see why Eldar having the same (better if they're meant to be the best seers) success is a problem.

>>50640066
>Phoenix Lords are the incarnations of Aspects of a War God (or more in Asurmen's case) does this mean they too are Demi-gods?

Channeled through a mortal Eldar. The Primarchs were literal sons of a gestalt human god. Quit being fucking obtuse. Primarchs can lift titans.

>>50640175
Fact is that the Imperium always wins every major engagement pretty much.

If you red the tone of the campaign books its really easy to tell.

Books like Damnos and Sanctus Reach end on these really triumphant tones about how 'none could challenge humanity' and the Imperium had 'shown that it could not be stopped'.

Whereas in campaign books where other factions even do manage to score a win (Damocles, Kauyon or Mont'ka) the book always makes sure to underscore it so that the Imperium still looks good. In the original Damocles supplement, despite it being about Agrellan, the last mission and fluff is Voltoris just so the Tau suffer a defeat in it at the end. In Kauyon the book ends with grim warnings about how the Tau are totally outclassed and suffering too many losses to keep up and Mont'ka just straight up says the Tau lost.

But books like Sanctus Rach, Damnos just end with blanket statements saying the Imperium's great and no-one can challenge them.

There's a very different tone in the writing.

>>50640263
This again.

What's a God? Is being a Powerful Psyker (which is explicitly all the Emperor seems to have been) enough? Or what makes the Emperor a God?

Also the Primarch's were his creations. What does the 'son' component even have to do with this.

Additionally by this logic Avatars of Khaine are incarnations of an actual Gods power, but we know they too are weaker than Primarchs.

So we remain at the level where apparently humans are simply innately superior in all fields to Eldar.

And this is without even going into how much more advanced the DAoT humans were than Eldar.

>>50640263
>Primarchs can lift Titans
Maugan Ra split a Bio-Titan in half

>>50640290
>webway teleprots behind u
>unsheathes shuriken rifle

>>50640280

The Emperor wasn't "just" a powerful psyker you stupid fuck. And if you have to have "god" defined for you why are you even fucking discussing this? You clearly don't know shit about 40k.

But you already know what the definition is and you're just being fucking obtuse even after you were told to cut that shit out, you stupid faggot. The Eldar gods are weaker because their pantheon was literally shattered.

>>50640214
>They won the ground war but the Imperium turned their victory to ash
I get so confused wht people actually want sometimes. Unless you want the lore to be as vague as
>Hive fleet arrives and destroyed a hundred worlds till it is stopped at great cost
And then never mentioned again, you have to have back and forths in the lore.

>>50640239
>Magnus still could not defeat the Space Wolves militarily
? His entire plan went off without a hitch. The only thing he didnt get was the gravy on top. I'm not a chaos player, but how was Khorne teaming killing him not the perfect chaos moment?

>are refered to throughout the material as an Imperium victory.
Most of these have the effect of if this one thing happens doom awaits. In other words can the Imperium stop it in time? Tune in next time on Abaddons 13 BC. I guess I dont find these as annoying as some people? Mostly because of the death by a thousand cuts approach the Imperium has going against it.

>Besides Tigurius
Ultra wank should be taken with a grain of salt.

>>50640322
Well yeah I'd want a definition, pretty tough to discuss 'Gods' if you aren't going to tell me what you mean.

Is he a Warp God? A C'Tan? A World Spirit? What is he?

>>50640342
What people want is for something like Sanctus Reach, Death Masque, Shield of Baal, Damnos or such to happen but instead of it being the Imperium kicking ass its a non-Imperium beating the Imperium for a change.

What's so hard to understand about that?

>>50640342
Magnus' plan didn't go off without a hitch anon. He wanted to destroy the Wolves and Fenris but was forced to tolerate with what he got because he still can't beat the Wolves even when everything's going in his favour

Also you can call it Ultra-wank all you want its still canon

And most of the supplements aren't even Chaos. I was talking abotu Damnos, Damocles and Sanctus Reach which are non-Chaos mostly

>>50640342
>And then never mentioned again, you have to have back and forths in the lore.

Having the Imperium Deus Ex Machina their way out of a crushing loss is just bad. It's obvious that it was a move to save the status quo and they should be called out on it.

>>50640368
>He wanted to destroy the Wolves and Fenris but was forced to tolerate with what he got
Not that Anon but book straight up shows he doesnt give much of a shit.

>In the Warp, a cacophony of wild laughter bubbled through the aether. The grand work was complete. The fools of Fenris, thinking their nemesis banished at the last, already prepared to leave their world all but undefended once more. It was a pleasing enough twist in its own fashion, but in truth, Magnus’ agenda was far more grandiose.

The entire plan went off flawlessly and instead of going back and wrecking their shit he goes and does his own thing.

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I just wish the Yiffs had gotten fucked harder.

Hopefully in the end Magnus at least manages to take Russ with him.

Space wolves deserve everything coming to them. Pic related.

>>50640386
Except the plan doesn't go off flawlessly because the Changeling is sent running before completing his goal and Magnus clearly did not intend to be banished by Logan Grimnar. Those were clearly not part of the plan.

Magnus did what Chaos always does. He lost the battle then did something which sets up for further battles which Chaos tends to then lose in the future as well. The result is Chaos never makes any real gains, never pushes back armies, never claims territory, never expands power

>>50640419
>because the Changeling is sent running before completing his goal
Did you even read the book?

>>50640427
Yes, as the Changeling is arriving at the location to complete the final part of his plan the Watcher stops him.

Did you not read that part?

Not to mention the plan to have the Dark Angels and Grey Knights battle the Spave Wolves hardly panned out in the end anyway

>>50640419
>The result is Chaos never wins, because defeating humanity means the big 4 lose their biggest source of strength and influence in the galaxy

>>50640443
You really don't get this do you?

This isn't about total victory, its about winning battles and such, not 'win the game'. Honestly I'm amazed I have to make that distinction clear

>>50640437
Then you lack reading comprehension.

>With the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes opening fire upon each others’ ships and raining fire upon the domains of the Fenris System, the Daemon’s duty to Magnus the Red had been fulfilled. It was owed a little fun.

Magnus's plan was to get the Grey Knights to do what Magnus did to Terra to the Rock by forfully breaking the ward around the ship. This allowed the Blue Scribes to retrieve his spell. The changling was doing his own thing after that.

>>50640437
What pissed me off to hell was the Wulfen.

So the idea that Magnus is responsible for it is cool, mirror the TSons own suffering, I like that.

But the Grey Knights just okay it. Mutants, freaking Mutants, and the Imperium just okays them with no fanfare.

What the fuck? So now its okay to be a mutant? What the fuck. Grey Knights let mutants in a Space Marine Chapter and let the Chapter Master wield a weapon which makes Khorne laugh (all Knights are psyhic so they would ahve heard the laugh). That's not the IMperium.

>>50639648
>Phoenix Lords have died to Dreadnoughts and Grenades.

They've never died to grenades. Jain Zar survived 5 grenades and a power pack explosion, only to be killed by a dreadnaught while she was down.

Primarchs ahve died to WAY less and have some of the most embarrassing in all of 40k. Mortarion and his Honour guard got roflstompled by a chapter master in a jobbing so miserable even the Swarmlord was laughing. Even worse was Angron who defeated by a Captain. A fucking CAPTAIN. How about the time when Curze got shanked twice by ten marines with combat knives or the time Guilliman almost died against ten marines? But the cherry on top of the failure cake has got to be Vulkan getting killed by a fork. You wanna put down Jain Zar for going down to an entire grenade pack, power pack explosion and dreadnaught? At least it took more than cutlery to stop her.

>>50640472
What Magnus did...too Terra.

Okay well in that case he failed even further since what Magnus did to Terra resulted in the Emperor himself losing a battle, having to retreat, secede Calastar and seal off the Webway Project.

Magnus, by contrast, could not conquer or force a retreat from any of his enemies and was, instead, the one forced to retreat/banished. Really not comparable.

>>50640489
Ok your just a fucking hater later mang.

>>50639659

>Still puts Eldrad below Malcador, the Emperor and any Psychic Primarch.
>Did Malcador predict the heresy?
>No
>Did The Emperor?
>No.
>Did any of the Primarchs?
>No

He's objectively a better seer.

>>50639708
>Phoenix Lords would never rival the Primarchs in raw strength and physical endurance.

In raw strength maybe, but not endurance. Phoenix lords don't even have physical bodies. They are literally walking suits of armour. Maugan Ra no sold being impaled by a Trigon and bifurcated the cheeky fuck in return. Primarchs are still flesh and blood and have been wounded by some really mundane stuff.

>>50640479
Mortarion; If I'm not mistaken (but I may be) the audio drama concerning his fight with Draigo rectified much of that.

Angron; didn't he fight 100 Grey Knights simultanouesly? I'm quite sure it wasn't just 1 Captain

Curze; I honestly don't know this incident, if its as straight forward as you're describing it then yeah that is pretty bad. I didn't know that actually, thank you for informing me

Guilliman; but he didn't die. So this is an invalid example.

Vulkan; I'm sceptical. Wasn't the weilder of said Fork an insane Super Assassin Perpetual? Or am I remembering it wrong?

Still the Curze example, if its as simple as you say, surprises me enormously. So thanks.

However I actually meant Karandras when speaking of the Dreadnought kill.

>>50639741
>Ferrus, decapitated by Fulgrim, then cloned 1000 times by Fabius, to be again decapitated by Fulgrim
Fulgrim will never get it that he's in the wrong and not Ferrus, right?

>>50640474

The last time the GK tried to interfere with SW's shit their GM got decapitated.

>>50640474

GKs are mutants too

>>50640543
In of itself a rather upsetting piece of fluff.

Doesn't change that the Imperium is now just okay with Mutants. Which is stupid in my opinion. If you make it that Mutants aren't actually a threat then you remove the Imperium's justifiable presecution thereof.

Now who knows how many Mutants could actually have been of help? This screws with so much fluff

>>50639708

>but the Daemon Primarchs have also had 10,000 years as well.

One of the things you need to remember about PLs is that it's not just they're 10k years old, they're gestalts of thousands of warriors. They may well have combat experience measured in the hundreds of thousands. They're most definitely the most experienced fighters in 40k outside of primeval greater daemons.

>>50640517
>Phoenix lords don't even have physical bodies. They are literally walking suits of armour.

Yes they do. The armor needs a wearer.

>>50640517
Asurman was taken out by a Keeper of Secrets.

>>50640548
The fluff has always, for their own reasons, drawn very clear distinctions between Psykers and Mutants.

And are you honestly now arguing that the Imperium doesn't have an anti-mutant policy which is being blatantly violated by just accepting the Wulfen?

>>50640558
>They're most definitely the most experienced fighters in 40k outside of primeval greater daemons.

And Triarch Praetorian.

>>50640561
The body is absorbed by the Armour I believe, I don't think there's any actual body left within by the end of the process. Which makes sense since it can be put on by someone else again.

>>50640568

Navigators are mutants, nigger. If you whine about Wulfen being mutants, then basically SW, Salamanders, RG, Black Dragons, any marine that's not pure is a mutant.

>>50640599
Welp glad to know apparently the Imperium is just okay with mutants. Don't know what I've been reading.

>>50626305
>HE'S CAUCASIAN
Looks pretty Tyrone>>50626230 here

>>50639912

That's the complete OPPOSITE of how Eldar are described. Codex makes very clear the Eldar's obsessive pursuit of self-improvement far outstrips human minds. You're comparing entities that have the combined knowledge, skills and expertise of a thousand lifetimes to guys with one mind. Karandras, the youngest PL, was described in PoW as a "galaxy of souls" where an Exarch was but single star and Jain Zar has "thousands" of previous lives according to Council of the Storm.

>>50640263

The Phoenix Lords aren't merely the sons of gestalts. They ARE gestalts. They're also straight up described as "Demi-Gods of Battle" in their codex entry. Asurmen was uplifted by an actual warp God, not created by someone who was merely worshipped as one. Marine-fans always seem to have the least knowledge of other factions. They seem to be content to think of other races as anything other than punching bags for their poster boys.

>>50640520

>the audio drama concerning his fight with Draigo rectified much of that.

It was immediately retconned by the Grey Knights codex, which is the most recent publication on the matter. Hilariously it made it even MORE one sided.

Other GK were there and daemons too (109 termies vs Angron and a dozen Bloodthirsters). A young recruit called Hyperion broke the Black Blade (lol), but it was the Brother-Captiain that dueled him and the Brother-Captain that personally banished him.

You don't need to die to get your ass kicked anon, and Guilliman got his ass beaten by a bunch of mooks and had to talk his way out.

It really doesn't matter who was holding the fork anon (it was Curze btw). The primarch most well renowned for his toughness and constitution was killed by having his throat torn out by cutlery.

As for Karandras, he didn't even fight the dread. He took a hit for the Incubi and Scorpion he was protecting by throwing himself in front of a blow intended for them. The entire point was to absorb the Scorpion whilst saving the former Incubi, thus completing the theme of redemption. It's like saying Curze got beat by a Callidus. He willingly sacrificed himself.

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>>50640561

Nope. Both pic related, Hand of Asuryan, Doom of Mymerea and the Path series depict the PLs as spirit pools. Every time they've been shown absorbing new hosts, it's not by physically placing the armour on, it's in a flash of light that leaves the Exarch's suit empty as they're raptured straight into the PL.

>>50640566

Which was immediately avanged by Drastanta. Primarchs have also been defeated by Greaters. No shame in that as they are amongst the most powerful entities in the setting. What separates PLs and Primarchs is that PLs have never gone down to chapter masters and captains.

>>50640803
>Primarchs have also been defeated by Greaters.

Only Sangy was and then repaid it twice.

Other Primarchs never lost against greaters, not even once. And they were fighting against the best Greaters.

Asurman was felled by a literally who.

>>50640850

>Primarch defeated by a Greater once
>PL defeated by a Greater once

And? I'll say it again, PLs never get beaten like a red headed step child by a chapter master. Mortarion even had his honour guard and still got soloed. Then there's Angry Ron getting his signature weapon smashed by a rookie and getting BTFO by a literal who Captain. Then you have recent developments with Magnus getting fucked up by a Grimnar only to stumble back to his saturday morning cartoon lair mumbling "J-just as planned...".

>>50640599

There's a rather large difference between having a mutation and being a mutant. There's also the difference as to whether or not the mutant is absolutely integral to the functioning of the imperium, like navigators.

The yiffs, salamanders, and raven guard all have differences that come from their gene seed, and they are all otherwise entirely functional servants of the imperium.

Black dragons move more into mutant territory, but are not abominable monstrosities. They're loyal and functional servants of the imperium.

Wulfen are physically abominable mutants that are not mentally functional or usable without their space yiff handlers.

You might say "What about the black rage"? That's a mentally thing, not a mutation, even though it is as a result of the gene seed they carry.

>>50640903
They don't count since they used their daemonic weaknesses against them.

>>50640905
>There's a rather large difference between having a mutation and being a mutant

That's literally the definition of a mutant.

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>>50640933

>It doesn't count because they have easily exploited weaknesses

Yeah, like getting over powered and smashed into the ground like a tent peg.

>>50641064
Then you're a mutant. You have at least 30 novel mutations in your DNA from when your zygote formed that weren't present in either of your parents.

>>50641211
>the Imperium tolerates some mutants and oppresses others

How is this news to you?

>>50641221
As a new person, I have decided to argue that while a literalist definition is that one possessing mutations is a mutant, since this definition is not realistically applicable in the real world (Essentially being meaningless because of the above), the usage of the word mutant is different and has a more narrow definition. This is doubly true in the Imperium, where the designation has a government definition.

>>50641095
What that's still canon?

>>50626230
none of the loyalist primarchs (save sanguinius, maybe) are dead. why do people keep falling for this?

>an untainted loyalist primarch lives
>AND HE'S NOT A SMURF?????
>KILL KILL KILL
>IN THE RAW BUTTNESS OF THE FUTURE THERE IS ONLY WILLYMAN

>>50642694
Ferrus Manus...isn't...dead?

>>50642738
his c'tan hands saved him

>>50642747
It all makes sense now?

>>50642738
During the battle in the Webway, the Emperor summoned his ghost.

>>50642694
Eh honestly I'd like it if some of the Primarchs die and actually stay dead. Like Kurze, Ferrus, Sangy and Vulkan (please be dead). Kind makes the setting feel less stale if Primarchs can actually die.

Of course with their enormous popularity I'm pretty sure they'll all be coming back since popularity is the greatest super power of all.

>>50642755
So he is dead?

Also...summoned from where? Not to mention Ferrus must feel so dumb, spends his life enforcing atheism on pain of death, dies and enters the afterlife as a ghost with other spirits and gods lol

>>50628023
Underrated

>>50628182
But having a new greater daemon every time is really cool?

Don't you know, the primarchs will be needed to sacrifice themselves to create Emperor 2.0 the Phoenix Emperor.

>>50642765
Only the shitty Primarches should die. Not the good ones like Vulkan.

>>50629769
So you haven't read anything in the last year?
Chaos and xenos are literally raping the imperium. Millions of worlds lost in all the fluff. BL and Codex fluff.
Looks like 8th will be gangbang Humanity edition. Every single enemy Codex says as much along with BL.

>>50642672

Yeah, it was in the newest edition.

>>50642707
But anon, it's been canon for decades that loyalty enthusiast Lion El'Jonson is alive and well in The Rock.

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>>50643254
Lion is something else

>>50642866
Sorry anon, The Beast series made me hate Vulkan. Single-handidly fighting an entire planet of the most advanced and powerful Orks we've ever seen and winning, resisting Gravity beams which destroy planets when other Primarchs get hurt by Bolters and forks. Using Waaagh energy...no...no...I don't like Vulkan anymore.

>>50642878
Welp what has happened the last year? Chaos lost in the Diamor System, again, Chaos lost in the Fenris System, again, the Imperium froze the Tau's Third Sphere expansion, the Imperium defeated the Red Waaagh, the Imperium defeated the Cryptoid Tendril, the Imperium killed Ynnead and all the Infinity Circuits...wait a minute anon...

What did the Imperium lose this year? What millions of worlds are you refering to here? Can you give me the textual source?

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>>50640850
>Asurman was felled by a literally who.
Be fair, N'kari had been around in both Warhammers for ages. Recent 40k appearances before the Iyanden supplement included jobbing to Grey Knights, at least twice.

>>50642672
>>50642917
There's also this in Draigo's section:

>In 901.M41, Draigo’s path brought him to the war-torn world of Kornovin, a cursed place that had fallen under the control of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion of the Death Guard. It was here, among the smoke and blood of battle that Supreme Grand Master Geronitan was slain, leading a charge to bring down the corrupted Primarch. Through the press of warriors and Daemons, Draigo saw his Chapter Master fall, a cry of anguish and vengeance escaping his lips. Breaking ranks with his brothers, Draigo fought his way to where Geronitan had fallen, cutting down anything foolish enough to bar his way. Even Mortarion’s personal bodyguard fell before Draigo’s expert sword blows and single-minded determination. Before the Daemon Primarch could raise his terrible scythe the Grey Knight Grand Master struck him to the ground, the righteous fury of the Emperor burning in his eyes. Unable to destroy the Daemon’s essence, Draigo nonetheless carved Geronitan’s name upon Mortarion’s rotting heart before his mortal form dissipated. For this victory Draigo was elevated to the position of Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

>>50645153
N'kari is only purported to be the mightiest of his kind in WHFB.

In 40K, he was never described as anything special Making him a literally who in a sense. Necrodermis = Living Metal

All the arguments of psykers and Phoenix Lords aside (btw Eldar fanboys, you are window dressing in this setting, sorry, you are no longer relevant to the universe as a whole), at least we can agree that Space Wolves are the biggest bro faggots of them all.

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>>50646558

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>>50626230