Why are Chaos Space Marines so lame compared to Chaos Warriors?

>>50609349

Because alignment aside, Chaos Warriors are the loyalist Space Marines of WHFB.

They are the scariest, most feared, hardest, toughest, strongest, etc. They were THE generic badasses of the setting. Sure fantasy orcs are crazy deadly, ogres and dragons exist, but the iconic "badass warrior in armor" is the Chaos Warrior and the Chaos Knights. Not even Bretonnians or Sigmar Priests were as awesome.

They are like the evil Grey Knights of WHFB.

>>50609349
Part of this is because Chaos Warriors are wierd, foreign, almost alien, with their own culture that is utterly inimical to the south men. Above all they're all men - they may be mutated, but they're mortal men and somehow that makes them even more terrifying for how dangerous and superhuman they are.

Chaos Space Marines are salty ass imperials who went traitor, and tend to go heavy on the lmao chaos spectrum. They're known factors, Space Marines But Bad.

Also chaos warriors have balling ass plate armor while csm have shitty old equipment and spikes on everything

Because Space Marines (and 40k in general) were goofy and over the top before 40k started to take itself too serious.

How could the primitive Hung, Norscans and Kurgan support their badass warriors, when most of the time, these people were barely able to avoid starvation?

But then again, most of the empire was covered not by fields but by beastmen infested forrest, yet it was capable of holding advanced urban civilization somehow.

At least in AoS now, you can say, they just realmgate into Ghyran, where, sausages grow on threes, roasted pidgeons fly straight to your mouth and beer flows in the river or some shit like that.

>>50609466
For the Northmen, you could argue they simply raid and steal for everything

For the Empire, they do have plenty of farm land,.and brisk trade with Brettonia probably which is a bread basket

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>>50609389
>>50609409
That does make a lot of sense. Excluding Ogres (which are more goofy than scary) and Lizardmen (which never existed according to GW), Chaos Warrior have no equal when it comes to core/inconic units, both in fluff and stats.

Would Chaos Space Marines be cooler if normal Space Marines never existed? (alternative 40k scenario; All Space Marine Legions went heretic, but somehow, the normal imperial soldiers somehow managed to beat them back into the warp)

>>50609466
I imagine by raiding their neighbors and taking their stuff.

>>50609466
I'm pretty sure Chaos Warriors didn't have to eat unless they wanted to.

>>50609497
Yes, actually. It would make both the Chaos Space Marines and also the Imperial Guard much cooler if the Space Marines had realized they were thunder warriors 2.0 and gone all post human revolution, because the warriors of chaos would literally be post human mutated supermen, and the IG/Imperial Army would be the badass normals who beat them back with sheer grit, numbers, and tactics

Kind of like WHFB, where the empire wins due to its technology and strategy

>>50609497
Imperial Guardsmen and the Inquisition holding back all of the traitor Space Marine Legions would be pretty neat. Might even lead to them cooperating with xenos to hold back the threat. Perhaps the Imperial Cult wouldn't come into being in a setting where literally all the space marines betrayed humanity.

>>50609568
If anything I see the Imperial Cult being stronger. A theme I rarely see examined is the fact that ths Space Marines are walking hypocrisy of the Imperial creed - they aren't human, they're post human engineered beings. And yet they're revered. It would make sense for the admech who Revere human technology and scientific accomplishments, but space marine biology only pays superficial lip service to human biology

In this different setting that is now sure to spawn it's own autistic general and don't get me wrong i approve, space Marines would be the penultimate example that only PURE HUMANITY can be trusted, both because of the Marines Betrayel and because in the end humanity still beat them back

>>50609617
Fuck man, actually got side with this anon here

>>50609617

They are revered because they are part Emperor, and the Emperor himself engineered them. They also revere the Emperor who is also a post human. It's not hypocritical at all. They are literally God's angels.

>Chaos Warriors
>a decent chance of getting killed by a normal human trooper
>frontline elf troops shit all over them
>so do dwarfs
>WoC rely on massive numbers and daemon allies to achieve anything

>CSM
>A killing machine that only be countered by another marine equivalent
>Normal humans stand no chance of beating them
>Eldar guardians are smashed aside by them
>Elite warriors in warbands in the hundreds or thousands that can take over planets on their own or savage entire sectors

How were the WoC menacing compared to the CSM? Their track record has more failures than the CSM by a mile. Pre-Archaon they weren't even a threat to the world.

>>50609739
>>Normal humans stand no chance of beating them
laughingcadians.jpg

>>50609739
>Normal humans stand no chance of beating them
Except those 13 times when they couldn't even take one fucking planet from those humans.

>>50609617
>>50609540
>>50609568
Set up for this what-if

>The Emperor actually does what a lot of anons always said he should have done - explains chaos to the primarchs and his plans for pyschic post humanity

>However, he up and fucking dies for ??? Reason (Chaos? Assassins? Betrayed? Fakes death so he can go be autistic in his lab? Maybe he seats himself on the golden throne because FUCKING MAGNUS still manages to fuck up the web way project by playing with fire
>With the Emperor gone the imperium is in disarray and there's a successional crisis
>Malcador forms an interregnum govt composed of earth Highlands
>But the space Marines, particularly Horus, think as the Emperor's favored sons they should rule
>The Malcadoran faction is like nuh-uh, you were developed to be tools for humanity, not to rule it
>Civil war
>Most primarchs side under Horus
>Sanguinius and Dorn are the only ones to stay loyal
>Imperium isn't totally off.guard this time so is able to establish an army
>It's still Horus and still.space Marines though so they get their assess kicked
>Only thing the loyalists have going for them is in this version the rebels don't have chaos support as it hasn't fully taken hold/spread everywhere, and only Horus is holding the primarchs together
>Horus kicks ass all the way till Terra, where a last ditch defense by Sanguinius, Dorn, and Malcador working together are able to resist his attack and kill him aboard his flagship
>Dorn and Sanguinius are killed in the effort and made martyrs
>Malcador becomes Stewart of the Imperium and rules with council of high lords

>>50609771
Cadians are assisted by Titan legions, Admech robo-forces, and 8 full chapters that are there 24/7 and more bisides. It's the most fortified area in the Imperium next to Terra.


And I ain't taking grand scale war. I am talking about personal encounters. We have stories of normal dudes cleaving through WoC. That ain't going to happen with CSM (except in that one time with Calgar's wankery but that's the exception that proves the rule).

>>50609739

Stop being an autist and realize he is talking about the lore/the glory days when Chaos Knights were the hardest hitting units in the game.

This is like you going into a "why are Space Marines so badass" thread and claiming they're not because MEQ die to Eldar and Tau.

>>50609799
>With Horus gone the rebel forces splinter as everyone wants to be in charge or hates each other still
>Robot fucks off to Imperium Secondus to establish Space Byzantium
>Other primarchs fuck off in different directions becoming their own rival states similar to Alexander's generals post his death
>Without the Emperor to guide them many fall to chaos and retreat into the eye of Terror
>Remaining loyal Space Marines are sent on penitent crusade to chase the dispersing rebel forces and either die martyrs or are inducted into Malcadoran new program to develop the Grey Knights
>Space Marines are treated as tools and servants now, not lords in their own right, and are forbidden from political and military rank, cannot command their own armies, only advise
>They are still used as living super weapons and surgical forces, but no longer operate independently of the army
>Admech splits and half fucks off to Imperium Secondus to push the boundaries of post humanism with Roboute

>>50609793
The 12 Crusades were not mean to take Cadia. They were either small raids or big war efforts to gain an advantage or forward a goal. Only the 13th was about breaking Cadia.

Going over to WoC. 12 TIMES! 12 LORDS OF THE END TIME. Each and everyone of them were tasked with blowing up the world. Everyone of them failed at the first level.

Now that's embarrassing. How menacing for my sides indeed.

>>50609810
>he is talking about the lore

Chaos Knights get trounced by normal Bret Knights or Blazing Sun Knights. Again, normal humans have a shot at the WoC. Amd i am intentionally ignoring the elves in this.

I am not impressed.

>>50609835
>Each and everyone of them were tasked with blowing up the world.
Nope, it was Archaon job.

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>>50609799

>18 full powered space Marine legions without the death toll of Istvaan V losing to 2 Legions

>>50609847
mmm not? Chaos Cavarly was strong, the only comparable one was those Vampire Knights (stronger) the graal knights (more or less same level). Cold ones cavalry (elves and lizards) were good too.

>>50609919
Also, elite Elves and Dwarves had a say vs chaos warriors, perhaps temple guard and grave guard.
The other just shat their pants.

>>50609901
Just a rough idea. Can figure something out. Maybe half the legions stay loyal, but I can't imagine any of the primarchs willingly being disbanded post war

Maybe they all die in battle with each other as the war grinds into a stalemate

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>>50609739
>>50609771

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OP you need some Iron Warriors broski. We're the serious motherfuckers who don't meme around, and will fuck your shit up six ways to sunday.

>>50609919
uwot

Statwise Bretonnians shit all over Chaos, with a Grail Knight skullfucking a Chosen something solid.

>>50610038
Ironically in the Brettonia books a Chosen kills a legendary Grail Knight with everything on the line in 1 on 1

It's pretty hilarious

Shoulda just given the man his fucking baby. Or yknow, killed it

the difference is one is made of GAR and METAL and the other a bunch of daemon-cucks with daddy issues. chaos knights are turbo vikings who seize power, csm are failures who hide their inadequacy behind the warp.

>>50610246
Actually, WoC peoples haven't gotten over the fact that Sigmar and the Southern people defeated them and then spent a long winder genociding them. Thousands of years later, and they are still whining about it.

Add to that that their most successful Chaos Lord ever is a southerner. Now who is the cuck?

>>50610264
>Add to that that their most successful Chaos Lord ever is a southerner.
Fuck off AoS.

>>50610272
Not even AoS. Archaon is the only Chaos Lord ever to pass all the tests of the Chaos Gods and claim all the Treasures of Chaos.

At least Abaddon is of the old legion blood. Archaon is a southern mut who has proven himself superior to the Norsemen and other Chaos tribesmen.

You cuck

>>50610289
>AoS player
>calling someone else cuck

>>50610313
I am not an AoS player and you are still a cuck.

>>50609872
And Morkar, Asvar Kul, and whoever was the everchosen

>>50610318
>I am not an AoS player
>Chaos cock-sucker
>not AoS player
liar.
>>50610325
Nope.

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Truth is that the simple silhouette of a single Chaos Marine in the fog is a hundred times more iconic and fear inducing than 100 emo kids in Chaos Armour yelling death threats.

Everything is perspective.

Joking aside, it's likely due to CSM being traitors and the Northmen just being what they always were. Being a rebel always gets you regarded with distaste as it's every edgy 15y/o's linkin park/slipknot soundtracked dream.

>>50610346
>Cannot into argument
>calls me an AoS player for citing that WoC suck compared CSM instead

This is the most retarded trolling I have ever seen.

>>50610370
>Northmen just being what they always were.

Norsemen are technically traitors against humanity and rebels against the nature older of the world.

>>50609466
The chaos dwarfs make all their cool shit in exchange for slaves and stuff

Because of the way they're always portrayed as edgelords and lunatics in BL fluff with little to no justification for anything they do, not even having fun with it to begin with. And then they consistently get BTFO by normal loyalists which makes them feel like insane weak loyalists.

In the end the impression you get is not that of ancient veterans of the great crusade and the horus heresy come to take back the empire that they forged from the rotting hands of the False Emperor for the glory of Chaos, but that of deranged teens with daddy issues getting put out of their misery by the hero Loyalists.

Tl;dr they don't get shit done while also being edgy little faggots so they're neither sympathetic nor menacing

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>>50610387
Norsemen didn't betray shit.
They're a different civilization, and probably think all other human civilizations are the actual traitors/rebels for they do not acknowledge the true Gods of the north and pray to weak south gods instead (which, to be honest, is kinda true since no other god seems to get shit done except Mary Suegmar).

>>50610264
Archaon's father was a Norseman, while his mother was a Southerner.

>>50611137
>Archaon's father was a Norseman, while his mother was a Southerner.

Exactly, like I said. He is a southern mut. Impure and a not a true Norseman. Archaon's mother cucked the north by spawning the Lord of the End Times with her Southern genes.

>>50611166
More like the opposite.
Arch.'s father cucked the South by creating its destroyer from raping a southern woman. The South (and the world) was literally destroyed by a Norseman's cock. The same way he raped Archaon's mother, he raped the entire South and the whole world.

His seed generated he who brough the demise of the Empire, and the womb which birthed its destroyer was part of the south itself. Ironic, isn't it?

in 40k no matter how powerful someone is you can just shoot him with a giant gun to death

in fantasy you have to get up close and personal

>>50610053
To be fair a chosen us not just a regular chaos warrior. In older versions only chosen wore chaos armor and were rare. Compared to the heavy armor other chaos warriors wore, and they already were the elite of the northern warriors.

>>50611137
Depends on the north men in question. Ulric, Taal and Ursun were venerated in Norsca too. Much to the dismay of the southern churches.

>>50609945
What if none of the legions stay loyal, but none of them go full chaos, either? As a fractured whole, space marines become a misguided force of eternal crusading, chapter-on-chapter grudges, forced recruitment, and xenos hatred. The galaxy's angels of death, but not the Imperium's.

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>chaos warriors menacing
>lose to guys in floppy hats

>>50610053
Are you talkin about Egil Styrbjorn?

'Cause was a Chaos Champion, the favourite warrior of Khorne in that moment, not a lowly Chosen, and it was still a close fight.

>>50609349

Because they don't try too hard like CSM do.

>>50610053
To be fair the power level in Warhammer is inconsistent.
GW writers are hacks most of the time and anyone can kill a Chaos general only for the sake of worf effect.

I think it's strange how everyone's constantly bringing up how CSM can't get shit done when Chaos Warriors couldn't do much either. There has been (to my knowledge) at least 2 or 3 Everchosen before Archaon and they all failed their jobs. Most of the fluff about Chaos Warriors in general is essentially "They did super good and killed a lot of people but then they got fucked up and went home". Sure eventually Archaon got their shit together and ended the world and Abaddon is (probably) in the process of doing the same now. Chaos across all of Warhammer is the big threat that loses constantly because if they ever won the setting would literally end.

>>50609349
You played them religiously?

You what you slaughtered your opponents and offered their skulls to Khorne? Infected yourself with serious diseases? I mean sure I'd imagine you've got some hygiene problems and diabetes is fairly likely but that doesn't really count. You held a drug-fueled orgy instead of finishing the games? Kept pulling that guy style house rule changes midway through every turn just to get an advantage?

Choose your words. Words have meanings.

>>50609349
because chaos warriors are a force with little analogs or equals, while chaos marines are just marines, but chaotic.

>>50611877
>Words have meanings.
Some of those meanings are also different and dictated by context.

>>50611166
>Archaon's mother cucked the north by spawning the Lord of the End Times with her Southern genes

In the novel she actually indices a miscarriage on purpose before Belakor retcons it.

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>>50611908
To expand on this

compare pic related to vid related
https://youtu.be/2iO9cGopQq0

>>50610038
...not true

The Chosen has superior WS and same stats all round with a Grail Knight. The Grail Knight has a ward save, and that's it.

Chaos Warrios are big superhumans with huge shoulders in a setting where most people are normal.

Chaos Space Marines fight other big superhumans with huge shoulders, making them considerably less threatening in comparison. Adding to that, they lose constantly while regular Space Marines are wanked to no end.

It's also, simply, because the "regular human" equivalent in Warhammer Fantasy are regular people that will have to get close and personal to those gigantic vikings. Regular humans in 40k will just use bigger guns to blow up the Chaos Space Marines.

And regardless of what that fag was saying up there, both the fluff and the crunch confirm it. Regular Warriors are comparable to most elite units, Chosen are absolutely fucking ridiculous, and a Chaos Lord is about the toughest Lord in the game.

>>50612112
None asked kids opinion.

>>50612112
I hate "Age of 7-12" so much. I've endured the GW abuse for years and even played their shitty "random charge ranges". But Age of Shitmar was the final nail in the coffin that made me quit and play Warmachine instead.

>>50612407
This isn't a blog

>>50612112
>that moment when realize you forgot to send your scouts into the misty forest

>>50612430
This isn't youtube either, so cease with the retarded complaints.

Convince me lads, do i buy the CSM start collecting or the slaves to darkness start collecting this weekend.

>>50609466
Very agressive fishing?

>>50609466
Make them cannibals who invade others for meat.

>>50612280
Thanks anon.

I don't play either game, but WoC seem to stand out far more than CSM. CSM have the same silhouette as loyalist SM, for example. Maybe a couple more spikes.

It's like how Ajax the Great in Infinity appears as some colossal sledgehammer-swinging dual-wielding psycho motherfucker when he's (probably) about on par physically with a Tactical Marine in 40k. The scale is different, different elements are emphasised and different features stand out.

In one setting, a big dude with an axe can be an unstoppable powerhouse charging in and breaking heads. He's the epitome of "badass normal warrior" and draws attention from players.

In another setting, badass axe warriors are dime-a-dozen. They're equally as badass, just as skilled, but they don't stand out. The focus in THAT setting is the rogue in the back, who's just bribed supply wagons to "lose" their cargo before a crucial battle. The focus is on THAT guy who's skills might be less (or more) impressive, but stand out better against the backdrop.

>>50612487
>Convince me lads
About what?

>>50612617
I'm gonna say Infinity vs 40K again.

Infinity, every model is a major threat. Most things have 1 wound, so any unlucky roll spells death. A sniper or a Total Reaction drone with a good vantage point can lock down the entire table with supressing fire and good cover.

40k has damage allocation rules that mean a reaction shot from a basic grunt is PROBABLY not going to one-shot your officer.

40k players, how many times have you seen a kitted terminator squad taken out in one volley from some ork boys?

Infinity players, how many times have you seen your melee powerhouse taken out by a Fusilier with a knife?

>>50612702
>>50612617

CSM seem less effective because they're up against, functionally, themselves. They're fighting other marines, but with LESS magic bullshit...and losing.

The WoC are running in against cannons, muskets, vampires, lizard people, tree huggers, giant lightning wheels and (potentially) Sigmarines.

>>50612393
Then why are you talking?

>>50612471
Nobody complained but this guy >>50612407 who is a cuck by the way.

>>50612739
>CSM seem less effective because they're up against, functionally, themselves. They're fighting other marines, but with LESS magic bullshit...and losing.

The CSM are running with outdated poorly maintained hardware, low geneseed, suffering through crippling madness and mutation that makes fighting as a disciplined force quite hard.

>>50611291
>Chaos space marines menacing
>Lose to people with NO floppy hats

>>50612782
Almost as if the whole chaos thing is a super lame and stupid idea

>>50612764
this is a complaint >>50612430

you're complaining about an anon expressing an opinion on a taiwanese cardcuts plane.

>>50612826
Not really. They are at a disadvantage against an Empire of a million worlds and its near infinite resources. But that gives them the underdog appeal which the WoC don't have.

>>50612854
No, this is a statement of fact.

>>50609466
Wasn' the armor magically conjured and fixed to your body by chaos the second you become a Chaos Warrior? I remember my friend who played chaos when we were teenagers saying something like that.

>>50612900
They are either bought from the Chaos Gods or earned from the Chaos Gods.

The Chaos armour over time fuses with the WoC body. The WoC no longer needs to eat or drink. As long as he kills, he will remain alive.

>>50612854
There's no point in trying to reason with whining autists, may as well just drop it.

>>50612936
But if I drop it, then how will they learn?

>>50611725
We know of 2"crusades"
One made great kingdom ruined, made one of the biggest human cities nightmare filled madhouse and caused Empire to reform
And it was led JUST by a chapion of Khorne alone

The other crusade blew up world

Hardly comparable to abaddon

>>50612959
There has been 13 Everchosen. The fact that we only know just 4 (Morkar, Asvar Khul, Archaon, and the guy who was possessed by Be'lakor and then died when Be'lakor expolded him), goes to show that they really didn't have much impact on the world.

>>50612874
Only if we ignore the blatant passive aggressivity that brought you to post this statement in an attempt to nullify or silence the opinion you don't like.

If the above isn't the case then you will surely be able to tell us what is the absolutely valid reason that compelled you to underline an obvious albeit arguable statement.

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>>50613003
DAMMIT WHAT DID I TELL YOU?!

Because Warriors of chaos gave a reason as to why they are what they are and were not 100% edgy moody losers.

Warriors of chaos had backgrounds not just about hating the Empire, and had a mythos not just about the Empire.

They were Viking Analogues, so they raided and pillaged, but they also traded and explored.

>>50612782
That isn't impressive, it just makes the CSM look like losers

>>50612959
>Hardly comparable to abaddon
Top fucking kek any 40k character better than Age of Shitmar stuff.

>>50613017
Please, HH is a bigger slap in the dick than AoS ever was.

>>50612487
>buying anything from neo-GW

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>Chaos warriors
>Anything but total chumps in silly furcoats

Reminder that the earliest rough amalgamation of the Skaven clans marched into the North with just basic clanrats and numbers,

Reminder that the migrating Skaven then split into smaller factions (One traveling, east, south, etc. ) and the North-bound force STILL conquered the land that would become Hellpit

Reminder that Clan Moulder don't even recognize the pathetic man-thing tribesmen as a threat and instead see them as convenient lifestock within poaching distance

Reminder that no Chaos Lord ever came close to retaking Hellpit and it is said that all but the most insane would rather battle the forces of Kislev than dare to fight Moulders horrific creations

Reminder than it took the Tomb Kings Prince Apophas and his scarab armies of all things to threaten Hellpit during the End Times (Who until then slaughtered everything within reach via Stormfiends)

Rats:1
Warriors:0

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>>50613009
YER NOT MY DAD

read too late

>>50612924
Well, basically my point. It's not important that north men are pisspoor savages like that anon said, sinxe they don't need ressources to arm themselves.

>>50613048
>Cannon fodder: the race
>Being worth anything

>>50612982
Empire didn`t exist back then
We literally have no idea about their impact on world

>>50613017
>Asavar Kul is AoS now
I hope you weren`t born this stupid

>>50609349
WoC are de facto the only superhumans of the setting. The only equivalent would be Grial Knights who look way less impressive (little more than just human knights) and sadly come from a very unpopular faction. It will never matter if elves, dwarves, vampires or lizards can compete, they're monsters and nobody is impressed if they're superhuman. You have to compare the chaos warrior with other human infantry, and you see why they're more menacing.

In 40k humanotity has marines, so evil humanity having them adds nothing.

>>50609793
Why didn't they ever just go around cadia? Space is pretty big, is impossible to blockade.

>>50613068
You are not making any sense. English not your first language?

>>50613172
They can't. Warp travel is only safe within the Cadian Gate. They have to cross into the Cadian Gate and then jump.


>>50613087
Sigmar's Empire existed back then. It was Empire forces led by Sigmar that defeated Morkar the First Everchosen.

>>50609497
>>50609540
>>50609568
>>50609617
>>50609799
>>50609819

this shit sounds rad

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>>50613172
>Why didn't they ever just go around cadia?

They did.
It's not 13 Crusades to destroy the entire Imperium, all of which got stopped on Cadia.

>>50613031
>HH is a bigger slap in the dick than AoS ever was.
>dat AoS-players projections

>>50613574
It's true though.
HH ruins the setting while AoS is just a new setting.

>>50613574
They're both pretty shit though, the Heresy really shouldn't have been fleshed out beyond being a vaguely outlined background event that occurred long ago. I mean, aside from the often bad writing, it serves little point but to distract from the relevant events, and also started this whole Primarch wanking.

>>50613620
AoS is just a new setting that just killed the old setting.

>>50613620
>>50613630
1) At least HH detailed event much better than BL
2) Rules and models much better.

>>50612900
>>50612924
Chaos Armor is made by the Chaos Dwarfs and traded to north-folk in exchange for... something.

At the beginning, each armor is just an armor, but over time of service, the wearer grows into it and becomes unable to take it off.

>>50613639
I don't think that's the right way to think about it.
Fantasy was already dead.
AoS is just the carrion bird using its remains.

>>50613680
I think he mean that Fantasy was killed for 8+ setting.

>>50613680
You can't just starve something and then pretend it's merciful to shoot it "because it was only suffering anyway". Plus the shit t- >>50613690
Yeah.

>>50609819
Oh god.... that means female astartes might have to happen in this setting

>>50613680
I would prefer a dead game over something that isn't even a game.

>>50613128
So it comes down to the hardest choice a game designer can make, deny the good guys something really really cool to maintain narrative weight to their opponents posessing said cool thing

>>50609819
So they'd be more like the Clans from battletech, neat

>>50613756
That's what you have.
You're not actually required to play AoS.

>>50609409
this guy gets it.

>>50609497
>Would Chaos Space Marines be cooler if normal Space Marines never existed?
no i think it has more to do with the distance and simplicity of the chaos warriors.
allow me to expand.
take a look at the AoS bloodreaver stuff, I don't believe I'm alone in seeing them as a bit too busy and not as badass even compared to the older Chaos warrior models.
i believe it's partly because of the silent doggedness of the chaos warriors in universe.
they are unnerving.
i like to use MoC's opener for an example of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5enBMSH5ghc
also who the fuck wouldn't get scared at
ws5/s4/t4/i5/a2
shit would make a marine afraid.

>>50613802
You are if the only place you can go to play is a fucking GW store.

>>50613814
>take a look at the AoS bloodreaver stuff, I don't believe I'm alone in seeing them as a bit too busy and not as badass even compared to the older Chaos warrior models.
Well yeah, since AoS stuff is 8+.

>>50613816
If Fantasy was dead then you couldn't play anywhere then.

>>50609799
>Stewart, of the Empire.

>>50613860
>If Fantasy was dead then you couldn't play anywhere then.
At least none tried to parasite in it's corpse.

>>50613901
Why should you care?
Again, you're not forced to play.

>>50609349
Because Geedubs frames them as saturday morning cartoon villains for the Imperium to beat over the head. Go rewatch the DoW2 Retribution opening: you might as well have the Benny Hill theme playing as hordes of identical black legion marines run straight into the other heroes and die. They're oafish retards whose motivations rarely transcend "FUCK YOU DAD I DO WHAT I WANT"

And obviously they're an embarassment on the tabletop too.

Each CSM is supposed to be ancient veteran of war, both in the realspace realm as we know it and an interdimensional hellscape that eludes logic. They'd be under supplied and using patchwork equipment, but compensate for it with an autonomy and improvised expertise unknown to a loyalist marine bound to the codex astartes. They'd be the ultimate dirty fighters where no trick is too low, and there was no object they couldn't fashion into a weapon of war.


Theoretically a single marine could destabilize a whole city- a whole legion would be a scourge on the galaxy leaving, well, chaos in it's wake. But nope. Saturday morning memelords- the only more embarrassing position to be in would be the Orks.

>>50613922
>Why should you care?
Because I am dissapointed customer, Kevin and it's not GW private forum.

>>50611877
I see you were trying to be funny here.

>>50613963
>Because I am dissapointed customer

Okay, but why say
>I would prefer a dead game over something that isn't even a game.

When you already have a dead game and no need to play the other thing?
Are you just a little bitch?

>>50612948
>'Dropping it' on an Australian Cave Painting Board.

>>50613993
>When you already have a dead game and no need to play the other thing?
Because >>50613901

>Are you just a little bitch?
>GWshill/AoSplayer calling someone a bitch
BWAHAHA
Go back to your community forum.

>>50614041
>Because >>50613901

But that doesn't answer anything.
Why does that matter to you?
The game is dead, so why do you care what the company who owns it does with its remains?

The only possibly reason I can think of it that you're a little bitch.

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>>50613943
>Each CSM is supposed to be ancient veteran of war, both in the realspace realm as we know it and an interdimensional hellscape that eludes logic.

To be completely honest, I would be totally down for CSMs being better than normal Space Marines (give them fearless and 5's rather than 4's in each stat?), but in exchange, making them more expensive and rare by slotting them into Elites and Rares.

This way, Chaos Space Marines would be treated like a finite resource and would show up sporadically in between scrubby Chaos Cultists.

>>50614094
>Why not?

Because you have no need to play the new thing.
You said you wanted a dead game rather than the new thing and you've got your dead game, just as you desired.

>And the only reason why people sucking companies cock if they paid or free shills.

I'm not sucking anyone's cock, I'm just pointing out you're a little bitch with faulty logic.
Do you just come here to have big strong Americans call you a little slav slut?

>>50613777
Good guys should never be cooler than bad guys. We already have sympathy for the good guys, if they're also cool there's no reason to cheer for the bad boys unless you're literally an edgy teenager who thinks them being bad already makes them cool.

If your good guys are gonna be so cool, don't make the bad guys a playable option.

>>50614090
It would be better if there was a distinguishing between the original traitors and the CSM that got recruited later.

Original veterans would be better than SM, and the later ones would be like knock off SM due to not having the logistical support and discipline of loyalists.

>>50614125
>Because you have no need to play the new thing.
And that's why I shouldn't criticze GW?
>I'm not sucking anyone's cock,
Nah, that's not how it's work, if you are shilling for money you are whore, if you are AoSplayer and shilling for free you are stupid whore.
>Do you just come here to have big strong Americans call you a little slav slut?
>dat sexual projections
wow-wow, easily here
Also
>big strong Americans
Fat doesn't mean strong burger.

>>50614192
The most important thing in that scenario would be to make different models and give the traitors a different name.

Otherwise, everything would just remain the way it is right now, with people simply going "uh, veterans got buffed. Neat".

>>50614125
>You said you wanted a dead game rather than the new thing and you've got your dead game, just as you desired.
People desired rest in piece for Fantasy, without rebranding into soulless WoW-copy with ugly models and primitive rules.

>>50614192
that kinda is a thing now where you can bring a full army of fearless t5 fnp death guard veterans

on the other hand I do enjoy leading an army of incompetent saturday morning cartoon henchmen decepticon style too

>>50614234
>And that's why I shouldn't criticze GW?

You can criticise as you like but why complain about the dead setting supposedly not being dead? It is dead and you should get over it you little bitch.

>Nah, that's not how it's work

That's exactly how it works, comrade. AoS is a piece of shit. But I don't care, I don't have to play or buy it because I'm not a little baby bitch.

>Fat doesn't mean strong burger.

Stronger than your scrawny soviet ass. Probably raised on boot scrappings after a five year plan fell through.

>>50614266
Shut up, slav.
You wanted a memorial for a miniature war game? You sad little half man.
Can't you just remember good times?

>>50614090
More expensive VOTLW, but make it give actually useful benefits. Maybe a meaningful stat bump.
Throw in new chaos Marines--cheaper and worse than regular Marines, these are clones and new recruits made from stolen or experimental geneseed. Worse armor, same stats, mildly cheaper, and you roll at deployment: 1/2 is a minor debuff, 3/4/5 does nothing, 6 is a buff. And again, these need to be meaningfully cheaper than Marines.
Cultists should be cheaper still. Cultists and newly recruited Marines gain the mark of a god if they destroy a certain number of units.

>>50614366
Actually, marks should maybe be something like one model per three kills. Nice, but only useful if you're really going to town

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>>50614344
>You can criticise as you like but why complain about the dead setting supposedly not being dead? It is dead and you should get over it you little bitch.
>y-y-you should shut up, s-s-s-top talking bad about GW!
Did they pay extra money for multiplie repeated posts?
>That's exactly how it works
On some GW site may be.
>AoS is a piece of shit. But I don't care,
Wow-wow be careful Alfredo, you still need t pay for healthcare
>Stronger than your scrawny soviet ass
Sure.
>You wanted a memorial for a miniature war game?
What? Where anyone said it? People said that didn't want see parasites on WHFB.

>>50609799
this actually paints chaos as even more of a joke and even less competent than the current fluff

>>50614504
>Did they pay extra money

Don't need to be payed to take you to task.

>On some GW site may be.

That doesn't make any sense Slavo.

>you still need t pay for healthcare

And do so easily with an actual wage to receive the best health care in the world.
I suppose you'll just have to have to get mutilated by the local turnip farmer.

>What? Where anyone said it?

About here >>50614266
>People desired rest in piece for Fantasy

>People said that didn't want see parasites on WHFB.

Same thing. Why treat Fantasy as something sacred? It's dead what's it matter to you if the parts are repurposed?
You don't have to keep it around like Lenin, comrade.

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>>50614266
>>50614234

>>50610272
>what is End Times

>aos shitposting in 2016, gw's golden age with massive increases in profits and a constant trend upwards on the stock ticker

you lost the war browncoat

aos is here to stay and is more popular than fantasy--you asked for a plot advance and got one

>>50614651
Grimgor's final victory.

>>50614598
>That doesn't make any sense Slavo.
Oh it makes.
>And do so easily with an actual wage
>paid shill
>actual wage

>best health care in the world.
>America
>best health care in the world
TOP FUCKING KEK.

>Same thing. Why treat Fantasy as something sacred? It's dead what's it matter to you if the parts are repurposed?
>Being normie
>on /tg/
Shouldn't people like contained in AoS general, or GW didn't pay for posting there?

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>>50614665
>gw's golden age with massive increases in profits
>aos is here to stay and is more popular than fantasy--you asked for a plot advance and got one
Proofs?
The last what we heard, Clath outsold the whole AoS, which failed the christmas sales and only royalty saved last GW financial report.
>you asked for a plot advance and got one
Different setting. different races, different characters (Sigmar from nationalist was turned into SJW, who fights for equal rights for all races, gender and religion).

>>50614677
>Oh it makes.

Makes what, Slav?
Finish your damn sentences.

>TOP FUCKING KEK.

It's true. Maybe not for poorfags, but have you heard of the concept of brain drain? All the best doctors come to America because they're paid an actual wage.

>Shouldn't people like contained in AoS general

C'mon, Slav, complete sentences. I believe in you, you shitty little bastard.

>>50614665
>gw's golden age with massive increases in profits and a constant trend upwards on the stock ticker
Thanks to Thousand Sons and plastic Heresy. If it's truth.

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>>50614712
Does that pic mean Warmachine is doing well? Because that would make me happy.

>>50614733
>Makes what, Slav?
Sense, Alfredo, sense.
>It's true. Maybe not for poorfags,
So not for cheap shills like you?
Oh I am sorry
>>Shouldn't people like you contained in AoS general
latefix

>>50614772
FFG much more popular, but PP still doing well in US.

>>50614772
Is warmachine doing well? Not outside of large urban centers in the united states. Anywhere outside of that it doesn't exist

>>50613281
A new AU.

Dark Sons.

>>50614836
>trying to shill so hard

>>50614836
The german and french scenes are very alive and well.

>>50614849
>PP's ceo doesn't breakdown and cry during financial meetings

>>50614776
>Sense, Alfredo, sense.

Good for you, Slav. Only took you two tries!

>Oh I am sorry

Me also, seems you haven't quite mastered the period yet.

>>>Shouldn't people like you contained in AoS general
>latefix

Good job, comrade, I knew you could do it.
But no, AoS does not interest me and so I wouldn't deign to post there.

Some come one, Slavioli, lay it out for me, why are you such a little bitch? Did your balls get frostbitten when your babushka tried to drown you in the well?

>>50614888
>Some come one, Slavioli, lay it out for me, why are you such a little bitch?
>americans calling someone little bitch
You know, I've posted here >>50614504 picture for reason.
>Did your balls get frostbitten when your babushka tried to drown you in the well?
Shouldn't you being castrate by your transgender parents?

>>50615016
>You know, I've posted here >>50614504 picture for reason.

I didn't give a shit then and I don't give a shit now.

>Shouldn't you being castrate by your transgender parents?

Sounds like projection to me. Did the KGB take away your faggot parents? Did you have to crush your own balls with a turnip?

Does this explain your bitchhood and your WHFB abandonment complex?

What the fuck have these two autists argued about for the past 4 hours?

>>50615092
>I didn't give a shit then and I don't give a shit now.
Nice denial.
>Sounds like projection to me.
>says the numale who starts projecting his sexual deviations in thread while shilling for GW
Good reverse.
>Does this explain your bitchhood and your WHFB abandonment complex?
>S-s-s-stop talking bad about WHFB, i-i-i-if you dislikes AoS you should just shut up and allow me to shill for it

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>>50615218

>>50615320
>Nice denial.

It's pure truth. Military welfare queens get no sympathy from me.

>Good reverse.

Answer me Slav. Did Putin do this to you?

>>S-s-s-stop talking bad about WHFB

I thought you liked WHFB Slav. I've certainly not asked you to stop shit talking it.

>i-i-i-if you dislikes AoS you should just shut up

Never said that either. I just wish you had some reason for doing so.

You really are paranoid, Slav. Maybe you should get some of that good socialist medication from the local witch woman and calm down.

>>50615419
>Military welfare queens get no sympathy from me.
So you are poor leftist?
>I thought you liked WHFB Slav. I've certainly not asked you to stop shit talking it.
Who cares it's obviously that your purpose is to ruin thread in shilling shitpost
>I just wish you had some reason for doing so.
The same reason why people criticizing bethesda fallouts, nu-Bioware etc, welcome to geek board mr. shill.

>>50615525
>So you are poor leftist?

No, but I recognise that such grunts are welfare queens.

>Who cares it's obviously that your purpose is to ruin thread in shilling shitpost

You care, Slav. I care, Slav. We've been discussing this for a while, remember? Is your memory going now too? Get to witchy woman quick!

>The same reason why people criticizing bethesda fallouts, nu-Bioware etc

The reason being you're a little bitch?
C'mon, Slav, just admit it.
I'm sure it'll be liberating for you.
Go out and tell the whole village!
I'm sure they won't beat you that hard.

>>50612534
This is valid. Norscan fishermen are among the most respected tribal members. Considering they have to fish chaos mutated fish twice the size of the boats they are in, not including chaos whales.

>>50615644
>but I recognise that such grunts are welfare queens.
SO at least you admit that even best of your "nation" are bitches.
>I care,
Of course, because if you wouldn't care GW willn't pay you.
>The reason being you're a little bitch?
>projecting so hard
Wow, corporation cocksucking really creates degenerates Again shill, your aren't welcomed in our board.

>>50615748
>SO at least you admit that even best of your "nation" are bitches.

Sure, I'm happy you believe that your basic bitch grunt is the best of the nation.

>Of course, because if you wouldn't care GW willn't pay you.

Willn't is not a word.

>Wow, corporation cocksucking

You keep falling back to this even if it makes no sense, Slavo. I'm merely pointing out that you're a whiny little bitch who can't stand to see his "holy" things "defiled."

> your aren't welcomed in our board.

This is an American board, Slav.

>discussion on the merits of the chaos factions of two settings
>spins possibly cool AU ideas
>instantly drowned in unrelated arguments between the AoS and Fantasy players
Please, both of your fan bases are pure cancer, you're all just terrible, shut up and let us actually talk

>>50615822
>Sure, I'm happy you believe that your basic bitch grunt is the best of the nation.
Well they are much better than stupid shills.

>Willn't is not a word.
Thanks

>merely pointing out that you're a whiny little bitch who can't stand to see his "holy" things "defiled."
>oh no, you are talking bad about muh holy employers, I-i-i-i will call you are bitch when finish sucks corporation cocks!

>This is an American board, Slav.
It's belong to jap.

>>50615848
>>spins possibly cool AU ideas
>sigmarines
>cool ideas

>>50615993
I was talking about a marienless imperium...

>>50615916
>Well they are much better than stupid shills.

Good thing I care less about shills than welfare queens.

>>oh no, you are talking bad about muh holy employers, I-i-i-i will call you are bitch when finish sucks corporation cocks!

Come on, Slav. At least try to read. I'm happy to shit on any company I can name. But you being a little bitch who cries over nothing is simply not excusable.

>It's belong to jap.

And remains American.

>>50614881
Source that shit nigga.

>>50616029
>Good thing I care less about shills than welfare queens.
So you hate yourself shill?
>I'm happy to shit on any company I can name, but if I do it I woudn;t be able to buy food and it's contradicts with my corporative-religion

>And remains American.
Because

>>50616109
>So you hate yourself shill?

No, see, I'm not actually a shill that's just something you keep trying to assert baselessly.

>but if I do it I woudn;t be able to buy food and it's contradicts with my corporative-religion

More baseless drivel. This is typical of a little bitch backed into a corner.

Tell me Slav, if you believe that shilling lines your pockets so then why not become a shill yourself? Even that job would beat having to subsist on sucking water from a goat's ass like you do now.

>>50616207
>I'm not actually a shill
So you'are making it for free? Well you are still shill, just stupid one.
>This is typical of a little bitch backed into a corner.
>keep projecting so hard
>, if you believe that shilling lines your pockets so then why not become a shill yourself?
I am not a poor.

>>50616283
>So you'are making it for free?

Making what?

>keep projecting so hard

You're not using this term correctly.

>I am not a poor.

Sure thing Slav, I bet you have the most turnips in all the village.

>>50616339
>Making what?
Shilling for GW.
>I bet you have the most turnips in all the village.
>american still projecting about his hard live
Shouldn't you return to fields Alfredo?

Will the two of you just fuck off and take it some where else?!

>>50616470
>Shilling for GW.

You don't make shilling Slav.

>Shouldn't you return to fields Alfredo?

Just admit that crying about WHFB or AoS makes you a little bitch.

>>50616642
Stop feeding him replies and he might fuck off!

>>50616642
>Just admit that crying about WHFB or AoS makes you a little bitch.
>says the shills who spamming "if you dislikes GW just shut up and didn't talking bad about them, you have no rights to do it REEE!"

>>50616838
C'mon, just admit it.
You're getting mad at a game that replaced a game that ended.
That makes you a little bitch.

>>50616880
>talking bad about GW makes you are little bitch, you should be good goyim and just shut up
Shill in nutshell.

>>50611877
Tough luck Fred Flintstone, we developed figures of speech a couple millenia ago

Wait til you see poetry

>>50616960
>WAAAAAAH FANTASY IS DEAD

Bitch.

>>50617132
>WAAAH STOP TALKING BAD ABOUT GW!
GWhore.

>>50611877
religious
adjective
1. of, relating to, or concerned with religion :
a religious holiday.
2. imbued with or exhibiting religion; pious; devout; godly:
a religious man.
3. scrupulously faithful; conscientious:
religious care.
Source: dictionary.com

It's like you're either autistic or the worst stereotype of a neckbeard.

>>50612982
Why would all of them try to specifically invade the empire? The rest probably went to places like Cathay, naggaroth, the darklands, or didn't even leave the chaos wastes and chose to conquer the tribes there

>>50617168
Talk bad all you want, but just admit that you're doing it because you're a little bitch who misses his precious dead game.

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>>50612407
>>50614772

As terrible as GW is, I just cannot get into the aesthetic of Warma. I don't think any setting is ever going to impact me the way Warhammer did.

>>50617217
>s-s-stop talking bad about GW, just shut up, or I will call you little bitch

>>50614836
It does well in Europe, too. One of the largest unofficial events is in Sweden.

>>50617311
>I'M A LITTLE BITCH AND GW IS NASTY AND IF YOU POINT OUT THAT i'M ACTING LIKE A LITTLE BITCH AND CRYING OVER A GAME THEN YOU'RE A SHILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Bitch.

>>50617394
>YOU SHOULDN'T TALKING BAD ABOUT AOS, JUST SHUT P AND DON'T DARE TO CRITICISE IT!
GWhore

>>50617625
Please criticise it.
But MUH FANTASY IS DEAD is not a critique you rat fucking bastard.

>>50609349
Their silhouettes are literally the same. Chunky guys in horned helms.

>>50612150
I'm using the WHFRPG2E because unlike the tabletop, its stats actually reflect fluff.

>>50617257
I got into it right away, but my friend had to warm up to it first. The Warjacks/Warbeasts do a great job of that though. They are the most important models on the table and look amazing.

But the main selling point of Warmahordes is simply that the rules are thought out and the people writing them actually give a shit about you as both a customer and a person. Especially in the new mk3 edition (which gives you a FREE rulebook to download), because PP promised to regularly make balance changes with biannual erratas if something unintended slips through the cracks (which to be fair, exist).

Waynes Dorkshop don't care about you nor their games. They just want to make as much money with the least amount of work possible. GW is the Adam Sandler of Tabletop gaming.

>>50612702
>40k players, how many times have you seen a kitted terminator squad taken out in one volley from some ork boys?
All the fucking time, because 2+ saves are actually shit.

>>50617775
Chosen wreck Grail Knights in the fluff.

>>50614090
That actually are that now. Emperor's Children now can all get 4+ FNP saves. Iron Warriors and Death Guard all have FNP now too.

>>50617865
Except they don't? Chosen are chumps and still fodder, it's the Chaos Champions who actually manage to kill Grail Knights.

>>50614848
FUND IT. We get to paint all the loyalist chapters as agents of Chaos.

Blood Ravens changes nothing. They just have even less scruples about who they steal from.

>>50617909
>Except they don't?

Except they do.
Chosen are Warriors+ and Warriors are already described as "fighters of unmatched prowess."

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>>50617979
>fighters of unmatched prowess
>Eldar is greatest threat
>N-No it's Chaos!
>No Necrons
>Tyranids!

>>50618026
>Has no point

>>50618026
The except the fluff states consistently that Chaos is the greatest threat. Find me anywhere where it says either the Tyranids or Necrons are the greatest threat.

Also find me anywhere any warrior group describe as "fighters of unmatched prowess". Do it.

>>50617979
Yet all they do is lose. And Black Orcs are flatly better than them too.

>>50614712
>Sigmar from nationalist was turned into SJW

What is this bullshit?

>>50618133
Sure, that's why they lost in the End Times.

>>50618079
That man is beset at all quarters by traitors, mutants and fiends is self-evident. But in truth none of these evils shall be our undoing.
When the end comes it will be not at the hand of any mortal being of this or any other realm: death will come at the hands of the ancients, those who determined our fate aeons before we stood erect upon the holy ground of Terra and gazed up into the starry night.

>>50618079
No it doesn't. Plenty of codexs depict their group as the unstoppable or otherwise unmatched. For example, who's the best cavalry in WHFB? Chaos Knights? Grail Knights? Blood Dragons? Any dinosaur riders?

>>50618253
Chaos Knights.
People must understand that Chaos is supposed to be the best at melee.

>>50618253
I want examples. Show were any other warrior group are given the same descriptors.

>>50618213
A inquisitor citing a wrong opinion since the Necrons didn't determine anything. They slept for a while and were surprised to see humanity infesting the galaxy.

>>50618331
>wrong opinion
>says chaos is greatest threat
>right because muh chaos
>says anyone else is greatest threat
>wrong because muh chaos
>so assblasted by actual citation that "chaos is best because best and anyone else is wrong" logic is used

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>>50618678
Chaos being the greatest threat is not an in-verse opinion. It's fluff.


If you are this retarded to take the quotes of falliable in-verse characters as facts, then the Tyranids were sent to the galaxy to punish mankind for its sins. This now truefax because Cassius said so.

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>>50618737
Or do we take Fabius Bile quotes about the Chaos Gods being non-sentient figments of human imagination?

>>50618737
>>50618757
Is that you Carnac? You don't prove him wrong, if anything you prove the part about dismissing non-pro-Chaos parts.

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>>50618757
Or maybe take this following quote as fact.

>‘Even a Grot knows that the king of da wolf boyz is the biggest and baddest Space Marine there ever was. He’s bigger than a deff dread, with a head like a gnasher squig but...hairier. He’s got six arms and they’re all made of guns and choppas and stuff, and if you shoot him he don’t care because he’s too tough. His voice is so loud he can shout at the sky and make it fall down, and if he gives you a wallop then bits of you fly everywhere like when Grogruk ate that stikkbomb for a dare. Even Gork and Mork think he’s pretty hard, and if Mogrok doesn’t get him then I reckon one of them’ll have a go next.’

- Nozbrog, Ork Boy, on Logan Grimnar

>>50618794
I did. He posted a quote from an in-verse inquisitor and no actual fluff. It's as factual as the Orks saying that Logan is the biggest baddest marineboy in da galaxy.

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>>50618737
>not in-universe opinion
>cites that if all things
>>50618757
>immortal Emperor
>Emperor cannot die because immortal
>>50618803
>citing narration
>implying narration can't be cited in return about discredited fluff
No more (You)s for you.

>>50618840
That's barely different from most fluff. Everything is canon but not all is true. Most codex's have in-universe writings.

>>50618890
Piss off.

>>50618910
Actually, no. Most codex fluff is told as a matter-of-fact by the omniscient narrator.

Only 3th ED had a sizable portion of in-verse material. 4th ED and up is just omniscient narrator feeding you facts.

>Everything is canon

GW never ever said that.

When will people just realise that Carnac is right about Chaos being the greatest threat?
He routinely BTFO of everyone who argues with him for the simple fact that the fluff supports his view, or rather that he just tells people the fluff as written.

>>50618961
Blimey, you can't even argue back against him?As for the canonWith Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."

Gav Thorpe, Lead Designer GW
"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."

Andy Hoare, Game Designer GW (in the comments)
"There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP."

Aaron Dembski-Bowden, co-author Horus Heresy series
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it."

Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library

>>50619004
Non-Chaos antagonist fanboys will keep at it until the day Chaos blows up the galaxy.

I would know because I was there for the WHFB End Times threads. Skaven, Undead, Orcs kept blowing their horns up until the moment when the world imploded. Reading the writing on the wall is beyond them.

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>>50618961
How do you explain the Oldcrons & Newcrons?

>>50619101
With a night full of weed and lots of alcohol.

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>>50619017
>Blimey, you can't even argue back against him?

He didn't put forth an argument.

>Gav Thorpe, Lead Designer GW

Former lead desginer abd he said that after he retired.

>Andy Hoare, Game Designer GW (in the comments)

Former designer also and said it after he fucked off.

>Aaron Dembski-Bowden, co-author Horus Heresy series

A freelancer and Laurie Goulding, who is ADB's editor and boss plus an actual employee of GW in charge with managing the IP, says that ADB got it all wrong. Picture related. He say there is a canon in 40K.

>Marc Gascogne, chief editor Black Library

Also a retired dude and it was just his opinion. GW made ZERO official statements about te canon.

>>50619101
A big retcon. Happens in like every setting.

Aren't CSMs the red to the loyalists blue?

Fluff aside, if you like that gothic look you'd choose CSM, if you like the tacticool you'd pick loyalists?

They definitely went OTT with CSM artwork.

>>50619101
Having a retired position doesn't change anything. If anything, we could say that everything said by a dead guy is non-canon because they're formerly something rather than currently.

Despite your desperate denials, hilarious how you claim someone else didn't put nothing when you put even less, GW's canon is more or less flexible to whatever they add. Older contradictions are brushed off as being in-universe inaccurate reports. They still exist, just not true.

>>50619219
Meant for >>50619135

>>50618153
They almost did, Archaon's troops were shredded by Black Orcs in combat. The End of Times only happened because of Deus Ex Author. The End of Times, if you bother to read it, was just about won by the forces of good until fucking Manfredd fucked it all up.

>>50619244
>The End of Times, if you bother to read it, was just about won by the forces of good until fucking Manfredd fucked it all up.

Not quite.
Their ritual was no sure bet for one thing.
Secondly while Mannfred did interupt the ritual first, Archaon was going to show up moments later anyway, and if Mannfred hadn't done it then he would have.

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>>50619219
Being retired means you have no say on the current affairs of the company.

We have a current Black Library Publishing Editor & IP Curator saying that GW does indeed have a canon and he even tells you how it works. Him > The non-employees +a misguided freelancer.

Also I put an argument. He choose to greentext nonsense and throw an image macro instead of going into a proper discussion. He conceded and left.


But mot importantly, again, GW made no officak statements regarding the canon. It's just random selection of people of forums and whatever spewing stuff unofficially

Methinks Carnac is desperately trying to deny various codices again. It's normal for every codex minus Eldar to wank their side.

>>50619244
Actually, the Orks were empowered by the Incarnate of the Beast and the other Incarnates were ripping into the WoC as well. The Swords of Archaon did commendable vs all that bullshit.

>>50619302
Chaos is called the biggest threat beyond their own codex though.
Grey Knights, Harlequins, Deathwatch, Tyranids, the main rulebook.

>>50619302
I am just denying that GW ever said any offical statements about canon. L2R.

>>50619294
>Being retired means you have no say on the current affairs of the company.
I'm sure anything Tolkein wrote which didn't make into a book counts the same, especially if it's talking about policies and such. A former employee can still comment about their former employer's situation

Seriously? Those green texts are actually more concise than your trash. Even the first green text was about how GW constantly makes everything look good in their own codices. It's rather obvious that he's taking a piss at how loose GW's canon can be.

>It's just random selection of people of forums and whatever spewing stuff unofficially
I'm suddenly curious if anything you said counts.

>>50619324
Reminds me of Storm of Chaos.

>>50619382
>I'm sure anything Tolkein wrote which didn't make into a book counts the same, especially if it's talking about policies and such. A former employee can still comment about their former employer's situation

Nope, they don't have much authority telling us how the company canon and IP policies work when they are versus an current employee whose job is to manage the canon and IP. Sorry, you basically have nothing here.

>Seriously? Those green texts are actually more concise than your trash.

Nope, they are nonsensical. I posted codex pages and excerpts and all e did was green text and call me a troll. He automatically lost.

>how GW constantly makes everything look good in their own codices.

Objectively false. The admech, Stormtrooper, and Eldar codexes don't make them look good.

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>>50619448
Posting related stuff.

>>50619468
http://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/40536658/#q40537619

Here is the thread about the Admech dexes. Posting the disgrace of the faction but the most important part is this condemnation in the first pages of the codex.

>Ultimately, though, the Cult’s citadels of knowledge are built upon a foundation of lies. The ability to truly innovate has long been lost, replaced with a reverence for the times when Humanity was the architect of its own destiny. No longer the master of its creations, the Cult Mechanicus is enslaved to the past. It maintains the glories of yesteryear with rite, dogma and edict instead of discernment and comprehension. Even the theoretically simple process of activating a weapon is preceded by the application of ritual oils, the burning of sacred resins and the chanting of long and complex hymns. And yet so long as the process works – or rather, so long as the Cult’s armies can obliterate those who displease them – the Tech-Priests are content to tread the slippery path toward entropy and ignorance.

>>50619448
>Nope, they don't have much authority telling us how the company canon and IP policies work when they are versus an current employee whose job is to manage the canon and IP. Sorry, you basically have nothing here.
Wrong again. Asserting victory doesn't work.

Someone writing about how thei
company works, even after leaving, still relevant. It's like if Bill Gates retired and wrote a book on his company. Apparently nothing there is relevant to how the company actually functions because retired? Terrible logic. I see why so take Carnac seriously here.
>Nope, they are nonsensical. I posted codex pages and excerpts and all e did was green text and call me a troll. He automatically lost.
So the citation you brushed off for being in-universe doesn't work but by citing an omniscient narrator, one who says complemets & apparently isn't an in-universe person either whom GW is incapable of disregarding, it is? Worse that his. Did he even call you a troll? Yours are even worse, how long have you been reading anything to do with 40k? I've seen idiots cite the oldcrons as evidence that the C'Tan are as strong as the Chaos Gods.
>The admech, Stormtrooper, and Eldar codexes don't make them look good.
That's funny, even while the Eldar are being raped by everyone, they still get praise. They're doomed but they're still surviving and making some difference. The Harlequins are planning shit too. Even the AdMech's practices would look good if one of the AdMech is reading it, especially considering how great the Dark Age was, & apparently no codex can speak a tiny bad when speaking good. Even Chaos would talk about the warp induced insanity or champions mutating into a Chaos Spawn.

The problem about pointing out potential exceptions is that not only is this an extremely literal reading, such as someone saying E for Everyone is false because there's probably unavailable to see or hear, but that it doesn't disprove the general case. A codex wanking the faction its normal.

Is every Space Marine stronger than the best champions of the Guard? Does this mean the weakest Tactical Marine is stronger than Yarrick or another notable guardsman?

>>50619715
Do not reply to Carnac. Do not feed him (You)s.

>>50619715
>company works, even after leaving, still relevant. It's like if Bill Gates retired and wrote a book on his company. Apparently nothing there is relevant to how the company actually functions because retired? Terrible logic. I see why so take Carnac seriously here.

Again, sorry. You are not making sense here. Dudes who been retired for a decade do not trump an actual employee who again IS ENCHARGE OF THE CANON/IP. He says there is a canon and so there is a canon. Period.

>So the citation you brushed off for being in-universe doesn't work

It's a quote of an Inquisitor who doesn't have all the details.

>by citing an omniscient narrator, one who says complemets & apparently isn't an in-universe person either whom GW is incapable of disregarding, it is?

The guy has been consistent for several editions primarily in setting that Chaos is the greatest threat in ever edition until now. Including in other race codexes and every main rulebook.

>Did he even call you a troll?

Yep.

> I've seen idiots cite the oldcrons as evidence that the C'Tan are as strong as the Chaos Gods.

First, the dex doesn't say that.

Second, what does it have to do with anything?

>That's funny, even while the Eldar are being raped by everyone, they still get praise. They're doomed but they're still surviving and making some difference. The Harlequins are planning shit too. Even the AdMech's practices would look good if one of the AdMech is reading it, especially considering how great the Dark Age was, & apparently no codex can speak a tiny bad when speaking good. Even Chaos would talk about the warp induced insanity or champions mutating into a Chaos Spawn.

Nope, the Admech guy reading about lost technology, schisms that lead to massive pointless war, and the fact that the first pages of the codex shits on his faction as being the bane of innovation and destined for entropy and ignorance, would rage.

>A codex wanking the faction its normal.

Not the current day codexes.

>>50619837
Do not reply to Carnac. He feeds from the (You)s.

>>50619742
>Is every Space Marine stronger than the best champions of the Guard?

Maybe not every one, but the vast majority, yes. Macharius did not like having Space Marines around because they would always show him up.

I let myself be distracted by argumentative jackass.

So back to the request. Do you have any piece of the fluff, and lets make it clear this time, from the omniscient narrator that says Necrons or Tyranids are the greatest threat? Sorta like these >>50618803>>50618757 >>50618737

>>50619894
But he's bullshitting so much. He thinks that other guy calls him a troll when he didn't. He thinks he can cite from things he never read & out of context no matter how out of touch hr is with what's actually written.

>>50619923
Do not reply to him. Do you not see >50619907? So desperate for his (You)s, he tells to himself. He will continue to bullshit until he either obtains all the (You)s he wants or if he discovers no one is feeding him.

>>50619923
He called my post baiting which implied I was trolling. Who baits but trolls?

And what did I not read and cited out of context? The three excerpts from three separate main rulebooks that cite Chaos as being the greatest threat? Seems to me I have the fluff at my side. You on the other hand...nada.

>>50619898
Space Marines are no longer human. It pretty much makes them into a fucked up hybrid of a human and a vatgrown demigod that looks vaguely human. Remember, primarchs are essentially the equivalent of a daemon prince of emprah.

>>50619942
Actually, I would be quite happy if you guys conceded. Less idiots to argue with and more people will be convinced with my side.

>50619968
Do not reply to the mental gymnastics. This is his plan. He thinks that he can make a jump from bait to troll, unaware of how these don't always overlap. He is intentional being retarded. He feeds from (You)s. Do not fall for the trick.

>>50619996
>Space Marines are no longer human

Actually, Iskandor Khayon says that marines are quite human. Despite all, the changes, they are remain at the core human.

Also Ruven and Fabius Bile commented, as well as other characters, that the Primarchs were very human. Too human. They were the greatest and the worst of humanity in one bundle. That is what caused their downfall.

>50620003
Do not reply to this. Though he claims he has succeeded, he doesn't mean the conversation but rather his appetite for (You)s has been filled. His attempts at attention have succeeded. It doesn't matter anything else.

>>50620045
This is true. Space Marines in the end, while having genetic modification, should not have their DNA radically altered by the geneseed, as most of the modifications are transplants.

>>50620003
If you actually think like that and don't understand how pathetic is, how did that happen? Like is it legitimate autism? A lack of shit to do that makes this petty crap look like a victory in life? I just dropped by this thread to comment on spess mahreens being bullshit tier musclebeasts who make the empire jealous, but now I'm just contemplating the depths of sadness in one man's desperate posts.

Time to kill myself I guess.

>>50620126
You should have listened to the other guy and just stopped. At least you would have went with some dignity instead whatever this is.

All I can say is....Not an argument.

>50620158
Do not reply to him. Considering the difference in writing style, it is possible that this is not the same person replying. As a matter of fact, who can guarantee it's the same person in most cases? Carnac finds another victim and source of (You)s. This is an attempt to trigger whomever replied before, assuming there is different people.

>>50620228
Why not just accept that Carnac is right?
Do your preconceptions of the setting really outweigh all the evidence he has saved in his folders?

Reminds me of when some silly Fantasy players really thought Nagash was going to be the bad guy of the End Times.

>>50620228
>>50620158
That was my second post in the thread, I'm not pretending to be anyone. I just saw the stupid shit going on here and felt the need to comment on it.

Also take off the tinfoil and just link the damn post, no one cares if they get a (you) or not if you're talking about them you dense fuck.

>>50619302
Tyranids lose pretty much every single battle in their own codex, including the one were Tau beats them by out-adapting them

>>50620277
>Reminds me of when some silly Fantasy players really thought Nagash was going to be the bad guy of the End Times.

Funniest stuff ever that. End Times Nagash let them get uppity but as the End Times progressed and Nagash did fuckall, they began to lose hope.

Then despair turned to rage when End Times Archaon came.

>>50613449
Man, what the fuck was so important on Medusa

>>50620491
Abaddon made a pact with Pert to fuck up the Iron Hands. Pert showed Abaddon a hidden path out of the Eye which they used to invade the Medusa system. The Iron Warriors and Black Legion vented their spite on the Iron Hands homeworld and nearby worlds before being forced to retreat by the Imperial response. Abaddon went home after decimating the Iron Hands and collecting valuable intel about their region of space.

>>50617709
>X isn'r critique/argument
Whaetevr you say shill.

Yeah that is bad.

>super predators that cannot be stopped
>most tales end with the Imperium/Chaos/Eldar/Tau winning from a range of pyrrhic to complete and utter victory

Look on an emotional level yes I don't like the idea of people dying in a horrible way to an unthinking hungry monster, but if you don't play up how dangerous they are, they'll lose any credibility as a threat.

Oh and that thing where swarmlords have infinite respawn, that would be nice, if there was any significant hero units.

>>50609409
>Chaos Space Marines are salty ass imperials who went traitor, and tend to go heavy on the lmao chaos spectrum. They're known factors, Space Marines But Bad.

The most frightening depiction of Chaos Marines I ever saw was in the novelization of Fire Warrior. It was told from the Tau perspective, who had no basis for understanding the warp. When Chaos Marines just started stepping out of warp rifts onto the Tau ships, the Tau freaked right the hell out. They were already terrified of normal Space Marines. Having genetically engineered killing machines who could also defy the laws of physics was too much for them to handle.

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>>50613128
>elves
>dwarves
>"monsters"

>>50614848
Space marines are all having issues with numbers, like the standard for CSMs. Geneseed is often corrupted or lost, and making more tends to be a crapshoot.

Lots of small warbands have broken off from the legions, and tend to just raid for supplies.

Some warbands have formed lasting alliances with dark eldar.

Ogryn are more of a thing in the guard, and are used in a lot of the ways marines used to.