/CofD/ &/wodg/ Chronicles of Darkness and World of Darkness

Secrets of the Covenants and Hurt Locker are both out!

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/199280/Secrets-of-the-Covenants?affiliate_id=498510

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/199275/Chronicles-of-Darkness-Hurt-Locker?affiliate_id=498510

>>50582024
Do you get any money from leaving your own link like that? Even if you dont I feel like its shitty to do affiliate links.

>>50582363
Meh, it probably doesn't matter. If someone wants to thank him for providing the links, the can use it.

>>50581996
How is WoD doing these days? I heard White Wolf had some troubles. And I haven't seen many video games based on it recently... Unfortunately.

>>50582400
Well Paradox did buy the rights like half a year ago so it shuld be on the way atleast.

>>50582363

I got them from somebody else's forum thread, so if anyone profits, it isn't me.

>>50582400

How up to speed arr you on the whole White Wolf situation? The gist of it is: CCP bought White Wolf, White Wolf went under CCP licensed the rights to a new company called Onyx Path made up out of White Wolf folks and new blood, CCP sold everything to Paradox who created a new White Wolf that's exploring other stuff while Onyx Path does its thing. World of Darkness is still getting books, as is Cheonicles (the former New World) of Darkness.

>>50582488
They got bought by the EVE Online people? Then sold to the Crusader Kings people?

Somewhat strange. How's the playerbase? WoD is a bit under the radar as far as advertising goes. But maybe they're planning some kind of new /v/ as we speak for that. Paradox also publishes for Obsidian, as I recall.

>>50582551

Still doing just fine. Tabletop is a niche hobby and especially so if you aren't playing D&D, but Onyx Path's crowdfunding campaigns often reach the tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars, so the interest is clearly still there. Several WoD games had or have coming anniversary editions with supplements, and many CofD lines are now updating to a new edition even as they add new games altogether.

>>50582551
I think its a good move from paradox, specially with the groth of 5e this past year.

>>50582603
White Wolf is playtesting VTM 5e aswell so I think there are good stuff ahead.

http://imgur.com/a/NrmvI contents of both books.
>Tokyo chapter
Boy I wonder which writer pushed for that fucking thing.

>>50582643
>White Wolf is playtesting VTM 5e aswell so I think there are good stuff ahead.
How many Malkavian Joan of Arcs are in it?

>>50582551
They got bought by the EVE Online people, who then kept dragging people away from the tabletop game to work on the WoD MMO, and then dragged people OFF THE MMO to work on EVE. Eventually the White Wolf people got sick of this shit, broke off, formed their own company (Onyx Path Publishing), and licensed the RPG IPs from CCP so they could get back to actually putting books out, while also buying the IP rights to Scion and Aberrant/Adventure!/Aeon wholesale. This is why the transition from nWoD 1e to nWoD 2e was such a clusterfuck.

OPP also put out their own revivals of oWoD on the 20th anniversary of their original publishing dates.

Then Paradox bought out White Wolf and all the IPs OPP didn't manage to buy (i.e. oWoD, nWoD, and Exalted). They're not terribly interested in nWoD or Exalted and are content to OPP keep doing their thing, but they put the kibosh on OPP's plans for a proper new edition for oWoD (rather than the 20th anniversary editions they had been doing), because Paradox's new White Wolf Publishing wants to do that themselves.

Reactions to Paradox's plans for the new "One World of Darkness" are... mixed.

Oh, and the New World of Darkness second edition has been rebranded to Chronicles of Darkness, to avoid brand confusion with the new Classic World of Darkness books Paradox-White-Wolf-Publishing is putting out.

>>50582708
So how many companies are producing WoD stuff?

I must admit I'm disappointed there's nothing for Belial's brood. I'm also not very excited by yet another Tokyo chapter. Can't they try something else once in a while?

>>50582551
>>50582708


(To explain the name, back when it was all still owned by CCP, Onyx Path wanted to put out new editions, but CCP refused to let them release new corebooks in case they caused confusion in consumers between that and the Old World of Darkness MMO they were making that they never actually managed to get out the door. Hence instead of Vampire: the Requiem Second Edition, for example, we got Blood and Smoke: the Strix Chronicle, with new updated rules and a "default chronicle" for the game. Once the World of Darkness MMO was finally cancelled, there was no reason not to let them call the games proper Second Editions, and so that book got retitled "Vampire: the Requiem Second Edition, Featuring the Strix Chronicle". Werewolf was Werewolf: the Forsaken Second Edition, Featuring the Idigam Chronicle, Mage was Mage: the Awakening Second Edition, Featuring the Fallen World Chronicle, etc.)

When OPP was in talks with Paradox to figure out if they could keep licensing the IPs to produce oWoD, nWoD, and/or Exalted stuff Paradox basically went "We want to do our own thing with oWoD, and we don't want to have two different properties called World of Darkness. We get to keep the name for our new thing. All these books you've been putting out lately have been "the whatever Chronicle", right? Call the 'New World of Darkness' 'Chronicles of Darkness' instead now. Aside from that, keep doing what you're doing."

Paradox is also trying to take a page from nWoD to unify oWoD more into one unified setting under a unified system, which they're calling "One World of Darkness". Before that was explained, a lot of people were freaking out over the name and thought Paradox was going to axe nWoD entirely in favor of a full push to revive oWoD. Luckily that's not the case.

>>50582708
I thought OPP owned Exalted.

>>50582771

I don't think the Brood has been mentioned in ages, though I think a Sanctified ritual calls on Belial by name.

And the whole point is they wanna do Tokyo for every line!

>>50582747
Paradox-owned subsidiary company White Wolf Publishing is publishing oWoD (now World of Darkness) tabletop books. Onyx Path Publishing has the licenses for publishing nWoD (now Chronicles of Darkness), and Exalted. OPP owns Scion and Trinity outright, which are now powered by OPP's own in-house system, rather than Storyteller or Storytelling (which I believe WWP still owns the rights to).

World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness LARP rules stuff is being published by By Night Studios and Mind's Eye Theatre, but I forget which is handling which since I don't keep up with LARP stuff.

>>50582771
I agree on the covenant part, Honestly I wish they'd covered lesser covenants in a sixth chapter or something.

Also no, it must be Tokyo my man, don't you know, they have a weeb that loves Japan and has to misreprsent it in every book he can.

>>50582774
So are all the V20, M20, and W20 books going into the bin when the WoD stuff starts dropping?

>>50582780

OPP owns Trinity and Scion. Everything else is licensed to them.

>>50582780
Nope! They just license Exalted.

The only White Wolf stuff they actually own are Scion and Trinity (Adventure!/Aberrant/Aeon).

And possibly Scarred Lands, if that was a White Wolf property. I think that one's a D&D setting.

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>Secrets of the Covenants
>6 pages in
>"fuck" gets thrown around a whole lot because that's how you let people know they're adults while reading your fiction
>"Of course Cairo knows revolution. Fuck, they’ve been having them for millennia. That place is like a hot potato. Except instead of a potato, they throw around rulership. And instead of throwing it because it gets too hot, they typically stake the fucker and everyone supporting him."
>"Sorry to my fellow ladies for the gendered pronoun there. But Cairo’s not had a woman in charge for as long as anyone remembers, which is about fucking disgusting."
ChroD was basically stillborn from its inception, but oh lawd. Why even bother at this point?

>>50582845

The X20 stuff will continue until White Wolf does their 5e.

>>50582708
>dragging people away from the tabletop game to work on the WoD MMO

Wasn't there an MMO called 'The Secret World' that failed pretty miserably and went F2P? It seemed like it was a stripped-down WoD at the time. Is that why they canceled the WoD MMO?

Feels like these companies just try to hop on trends, but don't actually have any passion or know what they're doing about it.

>>50582774
>One World of Darkness
I don't mind this. As long as they don't DnD 4e style strip detail out. It would definitely be good to have unified interactions between the rules of all the different 'races' in WoD.

My concern would be if it goes "you're now a generic vampire, here's two pages on vampires, now roll your dice".

>>50582845
Currently OPP still has the go-ahead to keep on with the 20th anniversary editions, but the production there may quietly grind to a halt once the new editions of One World of Darkness finally come out. White Wolf doesn't want to have to compete with its own licensees, after all.

OPP currently still has the go-ahead to finish and publish any 20th anniversary book that was already approved, but it's entirely possible that those will be the last ones.

>>50582845
Wraith20 is apparently going to continue to be published just fine, so I don't see what the trouble with the others would be.

>>50582850
So Paradox let them keep all the chaff, basically.

>>50582854
>the edgy punk rebel group talk like immature punks and hold left-leaning beliefs

Shocking!

>>50582866
>Feels like these companies just try to hop on trends, but don't actually have any passion or know what they're doing about it.
From what I can tell, CCP pretty much just bumbled its way into hilarious success with EVE and has no idea how to do anything else; every other project they've tried has failed miserably.

>I don't mind this. As long as they don't DnD 4e style strip detail out. It would definitely be good to have unified interactions between the rules of all the different 'races' in WoD.
It's worked fine for nWoD for like 12 years now. Every splat has the same set of stats and skills and uses the same core dice system, but the powers and power levels work very differently.

I imagine the One World of Darkness will work much the same way.

>>50582894
>So Paradox let them keep all the chaff, basically.
Technically they bought the rights from CCP. By the time Paradox bought everything CCP had, CCP didn't have Scion or Trinity anymore - they'd already sold those to OPP.

Paradox bought and kept everything CCP had left, which basically amounts to oWoD, nWoD, and Exalted.

>>50582896
Because there are nuanced ways to portray this mentality without reducing your game to a sad joke, but that's less important than having your mouthpiece squeal about insipid tumblr things like pronouns, amiright?

>>50582896

I'll be honest: the fact that you could convince me that excerpt was from Hollow Ones or a book about Anarchs does not make me feel good. That's primo 1996 oWoD writing right there, dunno why it's in a 2016 CofD book.

That said, not looking forward to the cherry picking to support some poster's pet narrative that's going to happen with these two books over the week. Gonna reserve judgment on anything until I can read it for myself.

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>>50582894
>>50582878
>>50582862
What are the odds that they get brought into line with the new WoD?

>>50582854
The Carthian Movement being a joke is nothing new. They've been a joke since VtR 1e core.

Angry young dickhead vampires with a lot of passion and no idea what they're talking about. Shitty Buffy-the-Vampire-Slayer-dialogue-style analogies that fall apart halfway through is entirely appropriate. They're pretty much a bunch of eternal angry teenagers.

>>50582958
Aw, that makes more sense but is way less funny than them deciding Scion and Trinity weren't worth their time.

>>50582992

THe section is meant to imitate a crude punk zine. If the doodle of Mr. T in the margins wasn't enough to tip you off that the Carthian bit was from a decidedly unprofessional in-universe voice, that's on you.

>>50582854
I'm mostly here for the crunch, and it seemed rather silly in the pre-release documents. Lancea sword and board counter-magic? I think I'll pass.
>>50582896
Don't defend the writers. This is literally 90's White Wolf. Don't write about young alienated radicals if you can only make them stereotypical punks.

>>50582958

And Big Eyes Small Mouth (the Anime RPG and Tri-Stat flagship), as it would turn out. I got curious and asked, and it tuns out they have that, too.

>>50583017
In fairness, it still involves CCP having decided Scion and Trinity weren't worth their time enough to let OPP buy them outright.

Probably because the fanbases for both Worlds of Darkness and for Exalted were much, much bigger than the ones for Scion or Aberrant.

>>50583030

The Carthians are a love letter to 90s White Wolf. They're literally a faction of vampire punks and socialists. Their faction name is in part a nod to the stereotypical Brujah of VtM.

>>50583039
Big Eyes, Small Mouth was a White Wolf product?

Huh.

>>50581189
Well, both Hong Kong and Paris are ones I've used as Werewolf settings, hence why I mentioned them :)

Otherwise, places that spring to mind include somewhere like Mumbai, or maybe one of the dinky little European capitals like Bern in Switzerland.

>>50583019

Even so, I'd like to think Egyptian punks in 2016 would speak a little differently than something that'd come out of Damsel's mouth in Bloodlines.

>>50582894
>Wraith20 is apparently going to continue to be published just fine, so I don't see what the trouble with the others would be.
Wraith20 will probably get all of zero supplements, but at least it'll come out.

Eventually.

Maybe White Wolf will hire Dansky to do their One World of Darkness edition of Wraith after that and actually pay him enough that he doesn't have to spend years chasing Tom Clancy Ubisoft money instead of finishing the damn book.

>>50583067

Brussels for Demon when?

>>50582363
It's someone else's affiliate link. Also, why would it be shitty? Gotta make money somehow.
Though we should strip the affiliate part off if we're going to put it in the top of the thread. Though I'd assume Jakki got the links from the top of the forum, so they're presumably OPP's affiliate number.

>>50583076
I don't think OPP knows how Egyptian punks in 2016 talk.

Is the in-universe author of that particular section even Egyptian, or just an angry young western Tumblrette who wanted to get in on the revolution?

Can someone confirm that San Diego is in the Invictus section?

>>50583076

But the writer isn't Egyptian, it's the person from the New York section speaking on Egypt. We don't see a switch in authors until partway into Hanoi.

>>50583088

Please no, Brussels sucks. I live there.

>>50583122
Nigel pls

>>50582834
>>50582771
>>50582660
>Also no, it must be Tokyo my man, don't you know, they have a weeb that loves Japan and has to misreprsent it in every book he can.
Two of the writers live in Tokyo. That's why they do Tokyo. It's also their Crossover setting.
They will do Tokyo all the time. People who get over this will have a much better time.

>>50583122

I only know it as a hotbed of international espionage.

>>50583008
>>50583019
Do remember, Hill and Young are writers on this. If they're doing parody or trying to take refuge in audacity, it's unclear because this really does resemble their publicly expressed personal politics.

>>50583059

Yeah, but they can be so much more than that. They're not even left-wing all the time. You can do a tribute to something and still keep it from sounding like a cartoon. I know it's a cherry pick from someone that considers CofD "stillborn" and all, but still.

>>50583060

It's complicated. BESM used to belong to Guardians of Order. They imploded just as BESM 3e was about to come out, so White Wolf bought the rights and published it through Arthaus, their low budget line. When CCP bought them, the rights must have stayed on and now new White Wolf owns it too.

>>50583137
I'm aware, that's why I said I wonder who pushed for Tokyo. It's just something to poke fun at man, I don't care.

>>50583078
Book of Oblivion was the only supplement that mattered and it's coming with the core, so oh well.

>>50583059
You can't brush aside all new bad writing as being a love letter to old bad-stupid writing.
>>50583140
They already did Berlin. That's enough Cold War Demon.

>>50583122
What's it like living the Soviet Union?

>>50583104
I can confirm they talk about San Diego a whooooole fucking lot in the Invictus section.

Nothing like a new CofD release. Listen to all that whining that the game is too progressive. Boy, I hope someone uses wacky pronouns, then we'll really see the butthurt.

>>50583205

What the hell is going on in my home town?

>>50583163
I hope WWP is smart enough to at least let OPP make good on their kickstarter-promised supplements, yeah.

>>50583210

Eh, it's just like two people who brought that up. The current discussion is more "do we allow ourselves to suffer the 90s once more, even if it's ironic?"

>>50583177
>Cold War

Brussels has spyshenanigans going on all the time. The city was locked down last year, right?

I like the Carthians, and the 1e Carthian book actually treated them well and took them seriously. I have a bad feeling that 2e doesn't, which isn't really a surprise, seeing as how all of the covenants in Blood and Smoke were dogshit.

>>50583215
Not 100% sure, It's all slapped togther and clippings, but I saw something about Millitants killing 12 people and a shoot out at San Diego Citizens Union’s ranch which lead to a possible mass suicide/vampire shit. Doesn't help that more than a few pages are in Cursive and that slows me down.

>>50583059
Then this is the worst kind of homage to the Brujah and Anarchs imaginable. It exaggerates the worst aspects of that clan/sect, the ones nobody ever thought were good (unless maybe they were an edgy 13 year old). What's worse is that these qualities could be charming when played with correctly. This isn't charming, this is just sad.

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>>50583240
I don't find it 90s at all. I also like the Carthians specifically because they're firebrand leftists. I get the impression that the people complaining about shit like this are doing so because a) the writers have the same political opinions, and b) the poster doesn't like those political opinions.

>>50582024
From what I hear Secrets of the Cevenants is shit. Like includes a Coil for diablerizing vampires for Humanity and another for taking any Supernatural merits you feel like, including those from other lines. I'm now running around with Adam Jensen the pyrokinetic vampire who also has a Demonic Form and is working for the Exarchs.

>>50583253
I wouldn't call Islamic terrorism spy shenanigans. And the lock down was barely noticeable when I was there.

>>50583268
>I like the Carthians, and the 1e Carthian book actually treated them well and took them seriously. I have a bad feeling that 2e doesn't, which isn't really a surprise, seeing as how all of the covenants in Blood and Smoke were dogshit.

I am thinking of getting the 1st ed covenant book are they that different from their 2nd counterparts?

So, would the first dot in the Crusade merit add Withstand for a vampire targeted by Awakened Magic?

>>50583303
>I'm now running around with Adam Jensen the pyrokinetic vampire who also has a Demonic Form and is working for the Exarchs.

oh god, thats so beautifully vampions. I am gonna squeeze every ounce of potential to this book

>>50583300
3300 Nice man

>>50583278

Ah, so it's just Heaven's Gate shenanigans? Way to be topical twenty years later.

What's the consensus on Hurt Locker?

>>50583500
It's crap.

>>50583515
Really? None of the merits are good? None of the minor templates? That sucks. You'd think with that much time spent on development and revising they'd have gotten it polished into something good.

>>50583331
Is that the one that lets you deflect magic?

No. It could probably let you improve your Defense vs Aimed spells, though.

>>50583337
Four dot Carithian Law to enforce the punishment you perform on one guy onto anyone who commits the same crime as him automatically for a year and a day. Like explicit example is executing one guy to make it so that nobody could attack the group that did the execution on penalty of death. No save or anything, just die.

"By the way, I killed a hobo for looking at me funny and took all his stuff. By spending one dot of willpower I have made it so that anyone who looks at me funny for the next year and a day dies and has all their assets given to me. Thank you very much."

>>50583515
>It's crap.

Why is crap?

what do you think about dogma?

http://www.dogma-universe.com/en/

>>50583308

Well, terrorism is a part of espionage, and I've also read a mountain of stuff about how there's a ton of Russian spying on diplomats, Chinese hacking, and both gun and diamond smuggling.

http://targetbrussels.be/

>>50583500

Very cool Minor Templates, if the previews are to be believed. I've heard good thing about the writing on violence in narrative as well, but I don't have the book yet.

>>50583557
Carthian Law and Invictus Oaths were a mistake.

>>50583557
>"By the way, I killed a hobo for looking at me funny and took all his stuff. By spending one dot of willpower I have made it so that anyone who looks at me funny for the next year and a day dies and has all their assets given to me. Thank you very much."

I am gonna use the shit out that.......and ban it when when i dm.

>>50583300

Do you think that is how a firebrand leftist writes in 2016? Does that read like anything you might hear on Chapo Trap House or anything you might read on a modern day Marxist blog or even in a modern day Marxist zine?

The politics aren't the problem, the cherry picked example was barely even political, the problem is that it reads less like a Carthian entry and more like something you'd find in a first draft of Clanbook: Brujah. It doesn't feel right for the Carthians, even if they're more explicitly leftist in this edition.

>>50583584
>>50583608
So you can kill someone for existing? And then anyone who exists dies?

>...human members of the coven---

Wait, there are humans in the circle?

>>50583639
Only as slaves or snacks, I wager.

>>50583638
Says it has to be an action. So you can't outlaw being a Gangrel, but you can outlaw being judged to be similar in appearance to a Gangrel.

>>50583639
It depends on the cult, like everything else about the Circle.

>>50583683
Might be more, 2e is all about allowing more broad inclusions into monster social circles. Take the new pack dynamics in WtF, for example, which explicitly allows humans.

>>50583500
There is no consensus yet, its literally just come out. People haven't finished reading it.

>>50583500
The Consensus is stupid and you should be playing Marauders instead of caring about it.

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Is it good?

>>50583639

Your Herd has to come from somewhere. Get a cute little New Age cult going on and feed on the members, have most of them only participate in nonsense and clue a few potential ghouls or Embraces in on the real mojo.

>>50583253

nah it wasn't locked down. Just a lot more police around.

>>50583639

Why not? Ghouls are still human, and regular humans sure do like putting themselves in stupid danger when it comes to Vampires.

>>50583611
How does it not feel right?
Also for fucks sake you even admit that it's cherry picked.

Also I hang out with Carthian types

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No fucking comment.

>>50584314
Is that from Hurt Locker? As someone disabled from birth, I want to see what OPP is doing to protect my oh-so-delicate fee-fees. Hopefully I can get a good laugh out of it.

>>50584389
Oh yes.
It's even written out in the contents.

>>50584314
>Oh no, a section respecting disabilities in my precious play-pretend game!

I don't understand why you people are still here if OPP's politics set you off so bad.

>>50584458
>this game is too detached from reality
>modern horror and urban fantasy need a solid injection of reality
>that's what we're missing

>>50584458
>respecting disabilities
If there's one thing the disabled don't like, it's people going out of their way to coddle us.

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>not-4chan is an example violence group in Hurt Locker

I think Hill's still mad at us for Beast, lads.

>>50584458
People who are respectful of disbilities wouldn't use the word "ableism". It just sounds false, like something you'd say to score good will points.

>>50584490
>Talks about reality
>Gets shit on for it
>>50584314
>>50584389
It seems like that section is about Persistent Conditions gained from injury and how they can also be used for representing birth defects or whatever.
>>50584494
I don't see how mentioning disability is "coddling". Or do you think that it's only non-disabled people who use the phrase "ableism"?

>>50584494
Autist here, can confirm. Fuck that shit. Respecting my needs and respecting my independence are not mutually exclusive

>>50584557

Ableism as a term has been in use for years now, not only in regards to physical disabilities but to harmful treatment of mental illness and the autism spectrum as well.

>>50584558
no only dipshits

>>50584558
I do so enjoy being talked down to about disability issues by the able-bodied. Thanks.

>>50584558
>I don't see how mentioning disability is "coddling".
Well, judging by the sentence that cuts off it seems to be about to launch into a tangent about how early games were so INSENSITIVE and OFFENSIVE in the way they handled disabled characters but NOT US WE'RE WAY IN TOUCH WITH AVOIDING ABLEISM.

>>50584557
>>50584602
>>50584619
>People who are respectful of disbilities wouldn't use the word "ableism".
But that's not even remotely true. Most of the people I know who complain about ableism are disabled in some way.
Why does 4chan get so fucking butthurt over neologisms they think come from Tumblr?

>I do so enjoy being talked down to about disability issues by the able-bodied.
Sounds like you're making assumptions, check your privilege there :^)
4chan always does this thing where they hear these funny SJW words and seem to think that anyone who uses them doesn't REALLY have a problem, they're just virtue signalling. But, you know, it turns out middle class white people aren't the only ones with tumblogs.

>>50584677
Or maybe it doesn't.

>>50584554
Hill didn't even write Beast. That was Matt McFarland, and it was notable because most of his prior shit was actually quite good (c.f. Demon, and Promethean 1e's supplement books).

The worst Hill gets on 4chan is Aspel sperging out about what a weird clique creep Hill is on roleplay websites.

How would cruac over level 5 look like?

>>50584727
Hill wrote *for* Beast. He wrote a section that mentioned Gamergate and internet trolls.

>>50584747
>over level 5
Doesn't exist in 2e. Thank fuck.

You could probably make Devotions involving Cruac to simulate the idea, though.

>>50584727
Hill is busy fucking up Changeling because he listened to some fucking closed circle group that missed Dreaming super hard and thought kiths were more important than the goddamn social splat.

Also wants to leave the industry because someone was mean to him about saying that Gundam is less sexist than Star Wars.

which is fucking hilarious.

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>>50584727

>Hill didn't even write Beast

He was the writer responsible for the first draft Heroes. The ones with the neckbearded fedora-wearing white knight, and had memes and internet slang in a half-page sidebar about their terms.

>>50584727

I'm pretty fond of Hill after he took the time to explain to me that I hated Changeling 2e because of things a freelancer told me that wound up being completely wrong.

>>50584296

It's cherry picked to promote someone's overall narrative, the writing itself still comes off feeling false. It's generic White Wolf punk bluster, the same kind of prose that even they made fun of in the oWoD days. It rings false because of that, especially when there's so much leftist writing on the internet with a clear and distinctive voice that one can take a page from. It's no deal breaker like the person presenting the excerpt tried to sell it off as, but it's still disappointing to see.

>Also I hang out with Carthian types

You hang out with Vampires that steal the trappings of alternative mortal government and economic systems?

In all seriousness, do your friends talk like White Wolf NPC #25 - The Angry Young Man? They probably don't, even when they're espousing their politics. That's the problem: if you can't be sure that that little bit of dialogue in an in-character presentation was from 1996 or 2016 for a Covenant as timely as the Carthians in presentation, that can take someone out of the text. At the end of the day, I'm not gonna blame the writer, it's still a way to get across the character's feelings on the Cairo situation without spending too much wordcount. I just wish they would have done something different.

>>50583300
>because they're firebrand leftists.
I would love to play a Carthian Communist terrorist, a wanna be che gueverra with delusions of grandeur. Hard Core leftist can still be villains.

>>50584768
Do tell. What did the freelancer say?

>>50584767
I still think that was all good and shouldn't have been cut.

>>50584765
>some fucking closed circle group that missed Dreaming super hard
What the fuck are you babbling about? You can literally just go on the forum and talk to him, and Lost 2e is nothing like Dreaming.

>>50584765

By all means, tell us how he's fucking up Changeling, because 2e looks to be "1e with mechanics that actually reinforce their narrative and also most of the Kiths aren't garbage anymore."

>>50584554
For real? Could you post a screenshot?>>50584586
>>50584691
I know, but calling discrimination against the disabled ableism just seems like a cheap way to compare the problem to sexism or racism. It is a completely diferent problem, that needs to be adressed properly. It may bother me because I've never heard anyone using it, despite knowing disabled people for my entire life.

>>50583500
idk. I just hope it is as Autistic as Armoury. Fucking love those books.

>>50584803
Not that guy, but he is fucking up Changeling. He's changing the themes and setting pretty heavily, and while the new mechanics might reinforce this new setting and theme, it does not reinforce the setting and theme that I enjoyed from 1e. Changeling 1e is hands-down the game that I've bought the most splatbooks for. I think I'm only missing the pdfs, in fact. It was my favorite RPG for a long time.

File: Tarot and Sophia.pdf (1B, 486x500px)

1B, 486x500px

I am making a rework to make each Mage's Wisdom more personal and unique. This is a WIP. Tell me how it can be improved, please?

>>50584765
>Also wants to leave the industry because someone was mean to him about saying that Gundam is less sexist than Star Wars.
Fucking what? I'm gonna need details on this one.

Especially since the role of a woman in Gundam is pretty much universally "die to provide pathos for a male character in Gundam", at least in UC continuity. The other continuities tend to be better about this, admittedly, but UC is far-and-away the primary Gundam continuity.

>>50584494
>>50584585
Aspie reporting in. This so much. I cringe whenever my mum tells people I am an aspie. If it does not affect anything why tell people?

>>50584797
>Hard Core leftist can still be villains.
>still
>implying that isn't the default
Political extremists of every stripe make pretty good villains. Just because the other side's extremists are evil doesn't make your side's extremists not evil.

>>50584803
Ah yes, because terminators were such a big part of 1e. And Fairest were considered the undisputed leaders of Freeholds. And Glamour was actively harmful to harvest from mortals. And the majority of each Freehold is assumed to have attempted to sell out at least one guy to the True Fae recently. And narratives were hugely important instead of occasionally being something you cared about because you were using dangerous addictive magic or the True Fae was crazy in a way that cared about them.

Hell no, what 2e is doing is molesting 1E's corpse.

>>50584314
Section basically says characters with disabilities are not worth less "human points" but the rules represent them by just adding another set of challenges under the beat economy of CofD. This is of course a terrible crime.

>>50584829
What did you like about Changeling 1e? Because based on the previous thread, atamajakki is convinced that the only people who liked 1e Changeling are the people who liked it FOR the abuse metaphor.

>>50584783
I'm not saying that it's amazing writing. A lot of the time there's writing in chapter fiction that comes off as very expository ("as you know" style dialogue). But shit like caring about pronouns, and saying fuck a lot? Yeah, my groups are like that.

>>50584797
Freedom fighter :^)

>>50584807
But it is like sexism or racism. Each kind of discrimination is unique, but at the end of the day it's all comparable, and often intersectional. There's a reason you can compare Harvey Milk and MLK. Hell, that discrimination is discrimination is why you can compare Malcolm X to Magneto.

>>50584829
He's not changing the themes. Or, to turn it around on you, in what way do you think he's changing the themes.

>>50584841
I don't even understand it, to be honest.

>>50578894
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I was just wondering if it could work or not.

>>50584798
>I still think that was all good and shouldn't have been cut.
It was a fucking joke and if you honestly think that you're a joke.

>>50584930
I liked that it was about breaking out of a shitty cycle. I also thought the courts were a great system to represent coping mechanisms-and enforced cross-splat motleys because you had to mix up who your friends were or you'd get lost in your own court so hard you'd start touching Arcadia again.

>>50584952
As far as I know you can apply your Attainments to Legacy Attainments, yes.

>>50584901
No, I know. It just seemed like the person I was replying too is a lefty. I mean I am too but I can still make fun of communism.

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>>50584935
You write out some Truth that you feel is resonant with the core of your lesson at the foot of your Tower, some Truth about yourself, who you were and now are, and some Truth about what is possible and you wish, in your heart of hearts, to achieve.

Then if you betray any of those truths in course of the game, you roll a potential degeneration check. If an act undermined your Self, for example, you roll at -3. If you did something shitty that undermines both your Self and your Vision, you roll at -6. And so on.

The Tarot part is just injecting some randomness and thought fodder, you can theoretically write out common Truths just like that, if you have a good grasp on your character.

>>50584930
I liked it for the theme. The Pan's Labyrinth/Mirrormask/etc creepy fairytale theme. I liked how it had undercurrents about reclaiming your life after a bad experience without shoving it in your face or making it impossible to escape.

Perhaps most controversially, I liked how the mechanics supported the setting.

And I'm pretty sure I'm the only one, but I think the tiered contracts fit better with Changeling 1e than any other splat, even Vampires who invented it with Disciplines.

>>50584935
>He's not changing the themes. Or, to turn it around on you, in what way do you think he's changing the themes.
This was covered in-depth last thread. Not rehashing while it was still in the catalog last I checked.

>>50584765

>Also wants to leave the industry because someone was mean to him about saying that Gundam is less sexist than Star Wars.

That someone was an actual stalker that has a bone to pick with the guy because he can't handle anyone who doesn't share the Correct Political Opinions, and had stalked him before. The Gundam/Star Wars opinion's silly to me but come on now.

>>50584935

Fair enough, but I know your friends would say it in a more organic way than the text, and that's really my issue. It leans just a bit too much on genericisms. I think we can both agree that it's not the end of the world, though.

>>50584927
>Section basically says characters with disabilities are not worth less "human points" but the rules represent them by just adding another set of challenges under the beat economy of CofD.
That sounds reasonable to me.

Well, the beat economy is clunky as shit, but in principle it sounds reasonable to me.

>>50584935
>Freedom fighter :^)
I'm sure ISIS looks at themselves as such.

>>50584903
>because terminators were such a big part of 1e.
Every Changeling player I saw treated it as if their Keeper cared about getting them back to the point that they'd never stop hunting. Huntsmen allow that sense of fear that someone is out to get you while not making the Gentry obsessed over personally chasing down every lost fork.
>And Fairest were considered the undisputed leaders of Freeholds.
They actually were generally the leaders. But more than that, the Seemings themselves have changed in such a way that characters who were Fairest in 1e might not be in 2e. I had trouble with it myself, but getting over the attachment to the name makes quite a difference.
>And Glamour was actively harmful to harvest from mortals.
This is actually mentioned in the fluff, and in Hunter for why they might deal with Changelings, but absent from the mechanics. It's also only Willpower.
>And the majority of each Freehold is assumed to have attempted to sell out at least one guy to the True Fae recently.
What?
>And narratives were hugely important instead of occasionally being something you cared about because you were using dangerous addictive magic or the True Fae was crazy in a way that cared about them.
Actually, again, this is a thing that was there in the fluff but not the mechanics in 1e. Although I'm really having trouble parsing this sentence.

>>50584962
But 2e is even more about breaking out of a shitty cycle.
I have no idea why you think cross-splat motleys were encouraged. Or do you mean cross-court?

>>50584953
No, you're just butthurt. It was a perfect example of Heroes. And, hell, people ganging up on Tumblr artists would also be covered by that Internet Trolls section.

>>50585012
I'm not a fan of communism. There are different types of lefty.
I've even derailed a thread by pointing out that Stalinism isn't really Left, but let's not rehash that :^)

Anyone share Hurt Locker yet?

>>50584984
Fantastic.

>>50584935
I'm not getting roped in with this conversation, but I disagree. Discrimination against the disabled is nothing like sexism or racism, and they shouldn't be lumped together. And comparing Malcolm X to Magneto is the most ridiculous widepread analogy/metaphor in fiction. The X-Men aren't blacks or gays. Many are potential WMDs that need to be monitored.

>>50585018

Changeling was not "the creepy fairytale game." It used that framework to tell stories about abuse survivor's and the struggles they face with PTSD. The central emotions of the Seasonal Courts were all common responses to trauma, and the horror of becoming one of the Gentry at Wyrd 10 is the fear that you can one day become an abuser yourself.

It's a theme that spoke to many people - Hill, myself, my significant other, every person I've ever personally played Changeling with, many people on the forums and elsewhere - and one that was crystal clear on even a surface reading of the corebook. I'm sorry you couldn't see that, but to everyone else 2e is focusing on the best part of an already great game.

>>50585052
lol sure it is. and first draft heroes were a great addition to a game people just didn't understand.

>>50585087
Lets not forget that Magneto was also a terrorist that murdered a ton of innocent people just because they were human. The Mutant Brotherhood is just the KKK who could kill you with their mind.

>>50585088
>Changeling was not "the creepy fairytale game."
That's how my group played it and how we liked it, and at least back in 1e that wasn't "playing it wrong".

Shit, even in 2e you don't HAVE to play it as an abuse-survival metaphor. Seemingless characters are a thing, aren't they?

>>50585088
You know the cool thing about a metaphor is that it can actually be both. Really good games can do more than one thing, or even use the fantastic to play up the real instead of just outright stating the real in your lap like a bowl of hot soup burning your crotch off.

>>50585052
>Every Changeling player I saw treated it as if their Keeper cared about getting them back to the point that they'd never stop hunting.
This wasn't fluff in 1e. That is to say, it wasn't universally fluff in 1e. It was something that Changelings lived in fear of happening, but almost never did. Sometimes it did, but fear of the possibility was a big part of the theme that's now gone in favor of certainty.

>This is actually mentioned in the fluff, and in Hunter for why they might deal with Changelings, but absent from the mechanics
You're being misleading here. A human that was fed on frequently and over a long period might have somewhat dulled emotions. It was never a certainty. It was even presented as only a rumor rather than a fact of Glamour harvesting because it just never happened. No reason to give mechanics to what amounts to an urban legend.

>>50585018
>This was covered in-depth last thread. Not rehashing while it was still in the catalog last I checked.
Link me a post, then.
Nothing anyone said last thread convinced me that there's anything major changed that isn't a positive change in service of the themes that 1e wanted.

Also, the theme you mention there still exists. But if you're going to tell me the mechanics supported the setting, I want to know how. What way do you feel they worked.

>And I'm pretty sure I'm the only one, but I think the tiered contracts fit better with Changeling 1e than any other splat, even Vampires who invented it with Disciplines.
I think that Changelings had by far the worst powers, and they used the "well they're magical contracts, so they only have to be loosely thematically related" to fill in dead dots with bullshit and make the contracts unfocused.

>>50585020
>That someone was an actual stalker that has a bone to pick with the guy because he can't handle anyone who doesn't share the Correct Political Opinions, and had stalked him before. The Gundam/Star Wars opinion's silly to me but come on now.
[Need to know more intensifies]
>I think we can both agree that it's not the end of the world, though.
We can, sure, but to other people CofD is ~stillborn~ because the writing isn't gorgeous.

>>50585103
I like the second version more, but WAY too many people jumped to the defense of what were basically Slashers.

>>50585052
If I was butthurt I wouldn't be calling it silly.

>>50585052

>It was a perfect example of Heroes

It's an awkward, already dated use of slang that only serves to eat up important word count. Matt cutting it for the KS draft was the right decision.

In theory it wouldn't be so bad, because Heroes are supposed to be petty weirdos with delusions of grandeur, but then you're still left with the fact that they're the only villains in the whole book and Beasts still don't do much of anything. The slang would have only made things worse, because then they come off as comedy relief characters. Which again, wouldn't be a problem if there was one or two other major, scary antagonists to Beasts. Heroes, in a better version of Beast, totally should be embraced as your Dark Team Rocket. Here, though, they have to be the insignificant thorn in your side AND the one terror that Beasts want to hide from. They can't serve two masters, so it's better to cut the slang and give Heroes a bit more menace for the pre-revison draft.

>>50585088
>Changeling was not "the creepy fairytale game."
Kind of was. It was both that and a metaphor for abuse. It's not an either/or situation.

>>50585087
>>50585125
The X-Men is a metaphor. They're not blacks or gays, they're a thing that blacks or gays or anyone who gets told they're different and that's bad can relate to. Yes, many mutants are shitty and dangerous, but people *also* say the same thing about real world groups. Some of them really are dangerous, but many of them aren't, and can even be heroic.
I'm still waiting on my weather control powers Pat Robertson says I have, though...

>Magneto was a terrorist
There are a lot of shitty writers

>>50585146
Oh God, don't tell me you were one of those people who ignored the fact that your character was torturerapekidnapped...
Being an abuse survivor is baked into the game. Even in 1e. The Durance is everything from a bad relationship to being held prisoner in a crazy person's basement.

>>50585165
It wasn't universal, no, but it's how most people played it. Huntsmen allow them to have their cake and eat it, too. They get to look over their shoulder and have something be there, but the Gentry aren't tearing the world apart to find their lost sock.

Also, again, we're talking about one willpower point per feeding here. I have no idea why that's so contentious.

>>50585088
>Changeling was not "the creepy fairytale game."
Some of the inspirations section of the 1e core book:

Grimm's Fairy Tales, The Great Encyclopedia of Faeries, Neverwhere, Labyrinth, MirrorMask, Pan's Labyrinth. Nothing about PTSD or trauma survivors. Not even in the non-fiction section.

You are flat-out wrong. Your preferred way of playing is not the only way. In fact, the listed inspirations in the book supports "creepy fairytale game" more than it supports "PTSD game." The latter is part of it, but you're a fool if you think that was the entirety of Changeling 1e and the only thing that made it great.

I'm sorry that I loved 1e and not because it was an abuse metaphor, thus disproving your point last thread, but there you go.

>>50585052
>What?
Huntsmen tokens. It's flat out stated the majority of Changelings have at least one. You get one by joining up with a Huntsmen.

>>50582024
downloading both now, whats the best way to post them without getting banned?

>>50585088
>I'm sorry you couldn't see that
>>50585018
>I liked how it had undercurrents about reclaiming your life after a bad experience without shoving it in your face or making it impossible to escape.

I feel like you need to get off 4chan for a while. You're being an ass and arguing dishonestly.

>>50585166
It wasn't defense, at least for me, it was BOREDOM.

For one thing, we HAVE slashers. They are great foils for Hunters, fantastic even, the kind of villains that turn a Vigil campaign from an action game into true horror.

I'm sure this argument has been made to the nth degree, but I'll make it again; if you are doing a game that puts the monster/hero dynamic on its head, you should bother to do it right. Beasts in both drafts are monster ass monsters who feed off of human misery and create their own dooms; and then instead of trying to show us why we should fear and hate these false Heroes, we're just told that they are scumbags even though their obsession with killing us is through no fault of their own. How is this done? Through shorthand of personality. They're the wrong kind of people. People we should already hate. Its okay that my feeding made this guy obsessed with murdering me because...he's a frat boy and I hate frat boys. How fucking weak is that?

World of Darkness antagonist splats have, for most of the game line's history had a bit of humanity to them, a dark mirror for protagonists who aren't exactly heroic themselves. I don't want to root for the Heroes, I want to be convinced to hate them, and all either draft did, with a few rare exceptions, was make me pity them. THAT is the failure of the design.

>>50585224
Aspel did they let you back in here? If so, why?

>>50583789
I enjoyed it

>>50585224
I apologize for having badwrongfun, and for how that retroactively destroyed your goodrightfun where you played an abuse survivor who constantly obsessed over how horrible their Durance was and how they'd do anything to make sure they never see their Keeper again.

>>50585224
>There are a lot of shitty writers
No that is what Magneto is supposed to be. If he was just a civil rights activist then X-Men would not have a main antagonist. Magneto is, and always will be a terrorist.

>>50585166
>I like the second version more, but WAY too many people jumped to the defense of what were basically Slashers.
Because Beasts were even worse. Neither side was great but Heroes were better by comparison. They just want to kill rapists, murderers, and other horrible people.

>>50585166
>think that Changelings had by far the worst powers, and they used the "well they're magical contracts, so they only have to be loosely thematically related" to fill in dead dots with bullshit and make the contracts unfocused.
I'm not saying the Contracts didn't need cleaned up. But the sequential 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 dot system works better as contracts than as Disciplines or any other splat that has used the system. Because they are contracts with clauses that you buy into.

I hate the bullshit new system where a contract works differently for each Seeming. That makes no sense. They're contracts with fundamental aspects of reality. They don't care what your Seeming is, except that the aspect might have an affinity with a particular type, thus making it easier (cheaper) to buy into.

Should have fixed and rebalanced like Vampire 2e did, rather than rewrite the entire system.

>>50585226
>Your preferred way of playing is not the only way. In fact, the listed inspirations in the book supports "creepy fairytale game" more than it supports "PTSD game."
Yup. There's a reason why 1e's tagline was about being a game of "Beautiful Madness". It was as much about being SURROUNDED by things that are beautifully mad and madly beautiful than it was about the effects your past had on your psyche.

The madness isn't just Changeling PTSD. It doesn't refer just to mental states, but to a world that refuses to bend to logic or make sense, in a way that's beautiful and frightening.

>>50585257
His ban was 24 hours long, and it was for being off-topic.

He didn't get banned for being a fuckhead, he got banned for derailing the thread into an argument about pronouns and then the electoral college.

>>50585332
The ban works people. Ban /pol/ posters all day every day.

To the Anon being silly. Stop being silly

>>50585332
It's bad enough he came crawling back into the Discord.

>>50585196
But it was the perfect example of Heroes *because* Heroes are meant to be people with delusions of grandeur who whip up hatemobs. I mean, I'm not disagreeing with you that Heroes should be more important instead of basically given the same optional treatment of Strix/Idigam/Alchemists, but that section was a perfect example of what Heroes actually *are*.
I also don't really remember it using slang, just referencing gamergate.

>Heroes, in a better version of Beast, totally should be embraced as your Dark Team Rocket.
Elaborate? What do you mean by Dark Team Rocket?
Frankly I think Heroes in the final draft are good, and I like all of them except Desmond Oakes, who I find boring. The other three it's almost hard to pick a favourite: The archetypal Nice Guy from the internet who's actually shitty and an actual threat with his mall ninja katana, the nice old Christian lady who tried to murder her grandson and wants to kill all monsters, or the scared teen in a coma who helps kill monsters because she doesn't know what's going on (and, in my mind, was a Devouring gone wrong).

>>50585226
>>50585313
Most of those creepy faerie tale inspirations are also good for abuse. I mean, you do know she's dead in Pan's Labyrinth, right? And that the whole thing is set during the war?

Also, it's not just PTSD, but Changelings are all abuse victims. That's a thing. that's a thing that you can't avoid and failing to play it up is not good for the game. Especially since that's what the game was praised for.

>>50585252
Well for plenty of people they really were giving the "Heroes are firemen why do you hate firemen" arguments. Because people didn't seem to get that Heroes are the firemen *who set fires* so they can put them out.

>>50585296
Freedom fighter :^)
Seriously, though, I love this Philosophy Tube discussion on the subject
https://youtu.be/7xE6Pb5y9hs

>>50585166
If Heroes were serial killers, they'd be the ones the audience roots for like Dexter, since they go out and kill the actual serial killers and predators, even if they are petty dicks personally.

>>50585313
And yes, I know Hill changed the tagline so it's no longer "Beautiful Madness", because he doesn't understand poetic language and thinks it was making fun of crazy people.

1e was about Beautiful Madness the same way Alice in Wonderland is. It's about the world being crazy and not operating on sensical rules. Embracing that too hard results in you losing your own grasp on sensical reality, but that's part of the fun.

>>50585359
Is arguing whether Magneto is comparable to Malcolm X off-topic enough to report?

Having an Aspel-free thread was lovely.

>>50585359
>. Because people didn't seem to get that Heroes are the firemen *who set fires* so they can put them out.
So if heros don't exist then dream eating monsters don't exist? But Don't beast ALWAYS exist because of the dark mother?

>>50585359
>that's a thing that you can't avoid and failing to play it up is not good for the game.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that my year+ long Changeling chronicles where we all had fun and explored the game's themes and mood and setting without playing as abuse victims was killing Changeling as a gameline for everyone else, and prevented the rest of you lovely people from playing out your abuse-survivor metaphor.

Go fuck yourself.

>>50585359
>failing to play it up is not good for the game
Says who? You? What's good for the game is what gets the books bought and people enjoying it.

>>50585350
I was in the Discord first. I barely even posted while I was banned anyway, since I was busy with a game.

>>50585362
>All supernaturals deserve to die for being supernaturals

>>50585366
Or maybe he does understand poetic language and doesn't like when that poetic language implies or encourages certain viewpoints?
There's a reason that people with schizophrenia will often hate confusing or disorganized things being poetically called "schizophrenic", and then there's the hate for people going "I'm so OCD" because they wash their hands.

>>50585312
The sequential order worked about as well as it did for anything else, but the actual powers and mechanics for them were garbage, so that's not really anything special.

Vampire also shouldn't have used the five dot rating system. And I like the new Contract system as well, and those special Seeming bonuses are bought into, same as the Clauses. They're just free for the Seeming. Also, they cared about your Seeming to begin with in 1e, so that's a really silly argument. Contracts care about your Seeming because Seeming actually means something now. You escaped and in doing so you got yourself put in this group, and as part of that group, you're under these laws.

>>50585366
Actually the problem was no one understood that the world working in nonsensical reality, was a stressful and horrifying experience. Alice was going down a bad trip.

The two modes of that horror worked like this: I am trying to /OHGOD WHY/ be normal /DOES LEFT MEAN BLUE?/ or I give into the madness and start hurting everyone around me

>>50583789
some breddy cool stuff int here, yah. Solace was kewl. I quite liked the Mithra cult also.

>>50585359
>That's a thing. that's a thing that you can't avoid and failing to play it up is not good for the game.
I'm fucking sorry. Weren't you and Atam talking about ignoring basic, prevalent horror staples because of triggering people? Fuck you, you don't get to say that and tell people they HAVE to play abuse victims if they don't want to and instead just want to pretend to be trolls.

>>50585434
>>All supernaturals deserve to die for being supernaturals
They do.

>>50585359
Oh look! Aspel is getting more of his world views from Youtube. What a credible source, what a way to build life experience. So rich in wisdom and culture.

>>50585434
Ignore this post please don't make this another derailment for this Anon who doesn't get it

This thread's gonna be fun when Changeling 2e comes out and is much more explicitly "this is not the game for fun fae urban fantasy romps."

>>50585472
Why are you such an SJW, eh mummyfag?

>>50585472
Yes yes, your fun is the only right fun, your groups who all loved the extended abuse metaphor represent the sum total of all fans of Changeling 1e, we get it.

>>50585460
This. All Supernaturals pose a risk to humanity that they actually can't control.
Garou Rage
Vampire Beast
Promethean Disquiet
Mage Paradox
Demons being sociopaths
Changelings are probably the least likely to hurt people, but that is a very mixed bag and all depends on what form they take.

>>50585460
Indeed a world without supernaturals would basically just be our world. All supernaturals also includes the monster's monster. so basically wiping out that whole side is a net win for mortals

>>50585483

Gee, it's almost like I'm queer or something.

>>50585472
Yup, because gutting a significant portion of what made the most-loved 1e game line what it was is a great business decision.

Changeling 1e was equal parts "Grimm's" and trauma survivor.

There are plenty of other lines that can and do support the "trauma survivor" part. Changeling 1e was the only one that covered Grimm.

>>50585410
>>50585433
>>50585442
Whether you have fun in a game or not doesn't have any bearing on whether or not that game accomplishes the things that it wants to accomplish.

Listerine isn't good floor polish.

>We explored the game's themes
>But didn't play as abuse victims
That's not exploring the game's themes, then. Every changeling is an abuse victim. That is literally HOW you become a Changeling.

>Weren't you and Atam talking about ignoring basic, prevalent horror staples because of triggering people?
No, actually. In fact, I recall Jakki saying flat out "I wouldn't play certain games with certain groups because of the themes". The point is also not to completely ignore anything that might trigger people. If you don't want to play a game about being an abuse survivor, that's fine, but that doesn't mean that isn't the core theme of the game. It is literally how you become the player character type.

>>50585435
Alice in Wonderland was a satire against modern math because a pedophile didn't know how negative numbers work.

>>50585464
Oh boo fucking hoo.

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>>50585509
FUCKIN BENDER POOF FAGGOT

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>>50585532
>BENDER

>>50585509
You could at least try to be a cool faggot like Freddie Mercury.

>>50585527
Not everyone wants to play the same game as you. You're a sick fuck that wants to play an abuse victim and get raped in every game. Not everyone wants that in their game. Let people have their fun and fuck off.

>>50585498
>they can't actually control
Not exactly true in terms of Mages.
But that ties into the Hubristic nature of their powers and morality.

Should you use your powers, knowing that they could fuck up and summon horrific entities, or at the very least potentially trigger Quiescence and mental distress in Sleeper witnesses?

>>50585497
>>50585513
>>50585564
It's not like your groups that ignored the themes of Changeling and ignored the horrors of the Durance were the sum total of all 1e fans.

>>50585498
So we should kill anyone with a mental illness as well? Or who have diseases?

>>50585561
Where is that Faggot/Gay Person chart?

>>50585513

Every single Changeling is a trauma/abusive survivor by default. That's what the Durance is.

>>50585498
>changeling

They basically have to become emotional abusers or manipulators to feed regularly. Having to spur on more and more disastrous Sitecom / soapopera antidotes which unlike reality doesn't magical reset at the beginning of next episode

Also the Willpower theft is a good mechanical reflection. So they basically leaving the target more open and without more resources to do their own thing

>>50585570
>So we should kill anyone with a mental illness as well?
No because those people cant grow into giant killing machines and murder people by the dozens. Just put em in a padded room and keep them away from the general population.
Unless TFV becomes a Public branch of the American/World Government and takes steps to create a super prison to house supernaturals then we have to kill them as it's the only practical way to deal with them.

>>50585564

You can't ignore the basic premise of a game and then get too mad when people call you out on it.

>>50585575
Except for Loyalists released back into the world by their Keeper. They haven't survived yet.

>>50585527
>>We explored the game's themes
>>But didn't play as abuse victims
>That's not exploring the game's themes, then. Every changeling is an abuse victim. That is literally HOW you become a Changeling.
Changeling has more than one theme, dickhead.

You don't have to explore every theme in every game.

>>50585611
And you can't ignore the fact that it's just a game and it's not some sacred text that must be followed and worshiped as it's written in the literal.

>>50585597
You can still enter into pledges for glamour though, right?
Even in 1e it was stated that some Changelings turn to pledges over harvesting after a really bad glamour trip.

Which will be even more important now for the more moralistic Changeling who doesn't want to cause some mental exhaustion in his glamor donors.

>>50585644
This.
Vampire has numerous themes.
>Personal horror about becoming a monster
>playing an urban predator
>Political/corporate intrigue
>Magic and mysticism
>Gang Warfare.
And probably more I can't think about off the top of my head.
No one is going to do all of those things.

>>50585570
>It's not like your groups that ignored the themes of Changeling and ignored the horrors of the Durance were the sum total of all 1e fans.
1. Didn't ignore it.
2. You aren't the sum total of 1e fans, either. Obviously. Or I wouldn't be here arguing with you.
3. Changeling 1e had more than one theme. I've already proven this with portions of the core book itself.

>>50585527
>alice

That doesn't actually disprove the point, it's a book about a small girl having a nervous break down while the world encourages it

>pedo
takes one to know I guess

>>50585575
What's your point?

When did I ever deny that fact?

Try reading the post you're arguing at. This is not the first time you've posted a response that means absolutely nothing.

>>50585597
>They basically have to become emotional abusers or manipulators to feed regularly.
Nope. In 1e, some examples included taking part in a funeral or sitting in at a sad movie in a theater. Changelings don't have to do anything except find people experiencing emotions. Even then, there are plenty of other ways of getting it.

>>50585570
Stop using with your stupid false equations Aspel. Mental patients aren't literal and figurative bloodsucking parasites or almost invincible shapeshifters with an air-trigger temper.

>>50585662
Indeed Folks that want to hold onto their morals will have to work harder. That is good motive and game design. Action based on Internal conflict

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So, did you guys know that Solomon Birch cares about sexist language, apparently? Because according to page 113 of Secrets of the Covenants he does.

Why is anyone defending this garbage?

God I wish Oblivion was real so damn bad right now so I could sell my soul to a Malfean and help free us all from the needless torments of sentient awareness and identity, holy shit.

>>50585527
>Alice in Wonderland was a satire against modern math because a pedophile didn't know how negative numbers work.
Micheal Jackson fucked little boys. Doesn't mean Billie Jean aint a great song.

We're arguing against Atamajakki's "EVERY SINGLE FAN OF 1E LOVED IT FOR THE ABUSE THEMES" posts from earlier, only now they seem convinced that we're arguing that every 1e fan DIDN'T like the abuse themes.

I just want there to be room for groups like Atamajakki's who love the extended abuse metaphor AND groups like mine who don't.

Screaming "JUST GO PLAY DRESDEN FILES" doesn't really excuse getting hedged out of a game we already know and enjoy, (especially when people in these very threads admit that the version of Fate in DFRPG is shit).

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>>50581996
Now that Hurt Locker is out, how different is the final product from those bits and pieces that were put out on the interwebs a few months back?

More specifically, have they kept in those ridiculously anachronistic, reality-ignoring bits about bows and archery? I mean, I know Hurt Locker's going for a bit more of a cinematic feel as compared to Armory, but it was super jarring to have relatively nuanced notes about firearms only a page away from Robin Hood-Legolas fantasy.

Can anyone share secrets of the covenants and hurt locker?

>>50585616
Iunno, Paxton, the sample Loyalist, is certainly still being abused, and even blackmailed.
Though "Loyalist who is actually loyal" is barely even mentioned in their write up. More of it is dedicated to how people might be manipulated into working for the Fae, or do it without realizing.

>>50585644
>>50585660
>>50585699
>And you can't ignore the fact that it's just a game and it's not some sacred text that must be followed and worshiped as it's written in the literal.
No, but you can't ignore the fact that the people making the game shouldn't cater to you.

>>50585709
>takes one to know I guess
Wouldn't that also make you a pedo? Also, how do you not know about the accusations against the writer?

>>50585746
Which was really dumb and something that should be changed. It didn't fit the themes, and it frankly made being a Changeling too "easy".

>>50585766
That's not what she's saying. She's saying that the game was loved by many people for it's themes, and 2e is focused on strengthening those themes.
The people in this thread however would prefer it ignored them in favour of what they want.

>>50585768
>tfw I want to play a Bow Hunter Bear Lodge member
>have to pretty much min max to be able to do anything against a werewolf.

>>50585359

They're that, but the book can't quite decide, even in the final version, if they're real big nothings or an actual threat. Matt's talked about how the ideal meeting between a Beast and a Hero is one showing up in the Lair ranting about all the time they've spent to finally find the Beast, and the Beast just goes "Who are you?"

That, in itself, isn't terrible. It's just when it's the only Antagonist in the game with very little else to do that's a problem. It flip flops the roles to subvert but it gets stuck in a corner because the subversion of a Hero's Journey leans pretty hard into becoming just a comedy of errors, which clashes with all the other games.

>>50585784
And you can't ignore the fact you aren't wanted here, but here you are expecting we should all cater to you.

>>50585766

I'm not trying to scream, I'm rallying against people who are acting like DavidH has somehow turned Changeling into something it wasn't with the new edition when all he's doing is focusing on the heart of the game that's been there all along. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

>>50585768

All I know about Hurt Locker is that I dearly want to use The Dreamers, The Lost Boys, Changeling, Hunter, Deviant, and Mage to run the most off-the-wall acid trip of a 1960s conspiracy theory chronicle ever.

>>50585779

It's been about four hours, anon. Go buy it if you want the books that bad.

>>50585746
>Ignoring the willpower theft

If you just want to survive, but again they have to encourage those environments or go find them. Effort into reward. It's hard to find a good spot. It's easy to just take candy from a baby. Also You forgot the willpower theft

>>50585788

Silver-tipped arrows?

>>50585766
Okay what in 2e is stopping you from playing the way you like? Huntsmen? Those don't show up unless you do something that lets them find you like...Scour your mask with higher Wyrd, or other similar actions and their chances of finding you grow with stupidity + Wyrd.

>>50585611
>the basic premise
>the

There is more than one "basic premise." "Beautiful madness" was how the writers decided to sum it up, and that does not require an emphasis on trauma and recovery.

In fact, I'll quote the Theme section of the book now:
>The prevailing theme of Changeling is the quest to find one's way home. For some,t his may mean reclaiming the mortal lives they were stolen away from as best they can. For others, it means finding a new home among the freeholds and Courts of the Lost.

>...

>The secondary theme of the game reflects the nature of the fae. A common hallmark to legends that feature things we thing of as "fae," in fact the characteristic that may define a supernatural entity as "fae" or not, is a certain theme of deception or dishonesty.

And Mood, which was my favorite part of Changeling 1e:
>The prevailing mood, however, is bittersweet. The Lost walk through an unseen world tinged with danger and deceit. The beauty of the fae is often sinister. The Hedge is alluring, and offers both succor and danger.

>...

>For all the horror, there is also wonder. For all the beauty, there is also madness.

I really suggest going back and re-reading the first chapter of the core book before you continue this. You really seem out of touch with the reality of the book compared to your personal head-cannon of what it meant to you.

Please ignore any typos since I was typing from the hardcover, not copy-pasting from a pdf.

>>50585820
He didn't turn Changeling into something it wasn't so much as he got rid of other things that it was.

The abuse thing wasn't the heart of the game for everyone, and some of us are feeling shut out.

>>50585784
>people making the game shouldn't cater to you.
Not that guy, but holy shit, this is the dumbest thing I've read in a long while. Guess I'll be taking another break from these threads.

Do you not understand how capitalism works?

>>50585779
They're already uploaded and available for free elsewhere so you don't have to send money OPP's way unless you're satisfied with their product and definitely want more. Train your google-fu a bit, friendo.

>>50585820
>It's been about four hours, anon. Go buy it if you want the books that bad.
I would, but my PayPal account was locked for a few days, so i'll have to wait.

>>50585836
Does Silver really do that much damage to a werewolf?

>>50585386
can we go back to calling him faggot-kun, like way back when. or is that too much of a slur?

>>50585861
When used as a weapon? Yes. That shit does Aggravated damage, which is the one kind Werewolves can't super-heal.

Hell, if they're Pure, it doesn't even have to be a silver weapon, just any silver.

>>50585784
>people making the game shouldn't cater to you.
>Which was really dumb and something that should be changed.
I know irony can be a bit much sometimes, but this is golden.

>>50585784
>Shifting Position to deflect
No no no Aspel don't feel compelled to defend your point. That Wonderland is not a horrifying experience about a small girl who finds herself in a world that doesn't make sense

>>50585884
faggot-kun seems too affectionate, considering 4chan calls everyone fags.

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So say a bunch of jackass Mages stomped straight into your Motley's home unannounced, concealed by some kind of spell, and demanded that you hand over another (albeit somewhat unpopular) Changeling thief, for alleged murders.

What would you generally do, after you've informed them of his (rough) location, having seen two of them were carrying Iron weapons and knowing that while he's thieving garbage, he's the incorrigible partner of one of your motley, and thievery is what helps him maintain some sort of Clarity.

Especially when his partner tells you that he was strong-armed into helping another Mage steal some arcane rubbish with the threat of having his daughter (fathered by his Fetch) killed.

I'm getting something of a block, determining how the motley would respond. City has two Freeholds. One rich and high society (who are largely jackasses), one poor and accepting of all. These are all part of the poor one.

PCs are the Mages. I want to show them that they need to be more subtle than marching into places and demanding they surrender people to an unknown fate on the authority of an unknown organisation.

>>50585888
I know they can't regen but I am thinking about
>Effective range of a Bow
>Time it takes to Nock and draw
>The distance a pissed off werewolf can cover
I mean I would basically need to oneshot a werewolf and even with silver thats hard as fuck.

>>50585854

Focus isn't a bad thing. Promethean has a very narrow scope. Wraith likewise does as well. I don't see boiling down Changeling into a more consistent whole is not the great crime I'm seeing it as.

>>50585861

Aggravated. If you can get three good hits in on a Werewolf with silver, odds are they're dead unless they're really goddamn tanky or can kill you first.

>>50585918
>Aggravated. If you can get three good hits in on a Werewolf with silver, odds are they're dead unless they're really goddamn tanky or can kill you first.
read >>50585915

>>50585784
>the people making the game shouldn't cater to you.
They shouldn't cater to you, either.

>It didn't fit the themes,
It didn't go against them, either. I'm not sure what absorbing ambient emotions has to do with trauma victims or fairy tales, so this is kind of a non-point.

>>50585784
>and 2e is focused on strengthening those themes.
Some of those themes. It's also ignoring some of 1e's other themes. Some themes that parts of the fanbase loved dearly. 1e had more than one theme. This has been stated repeatedly. Get it through your head.

>>50585856
>Aspel successfully drives away yet another person who disagrees with him, preventing them from contributing to the threads
>Smiling in satisfaction, he carves another notch into his wall.

>>50585831
Read the post again. 1e. 1e did not have willpower theft.

>>50585915
I thought Combat archers in this game can fire 1 arrow a turn, as a firearms style attack. Assuming you were smart you should be able to keep them back even given the distance they can cover per turn. I mean the range on a bow is what compared to a rifle?

And if that doesn't work for you, try some neat trick like better arrows.

>>50585909

Contact the changeling the mages are looking for and tell him he needs to go to ground, then attempt to rally your militant bloc (Summer Court, most likely) to close ranks against outside aggression.

>>50585915

One mortal archer versus one werewolf is going to end very, very poorly for the mortal almost every single time. There's a reason Hunters gather in cells; a lone idiot upholding the Vigil is going to die pretty quickly.

>>50585759
pic or it didn't happen

>>50585960
>One mortal archer versus one werewolf is going to end very, very poorly for the mortal almost every single time. There's a reason Hunters gather in cells; a lone idiot upholding the Vigil is going to die pretty quickly.
I just want to play "The Most Dangerous Game" and Silver bullets are shot. The only reliable ranged silver weapon is a bow....actually now that I think about it Silver Shot out of a smooth bore might work. But good luck penetrating werewolf hide with it.

>>50585918
Promethean has ALWAYS had a narrow scope, and only had like five books total to reflect this. Changeling was partially so beloved because it was broad enough to be many things to many people, to the point where it got several more books than it was originally going to.

"Making it more consistent" by cutting out a lot of the actual themes that people bought books for and played the games for IS pretty much a design crime, yes. You probably don't see it this way because the themes that are being focused on are the ones you liked, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck for the rest of us.

>>50585909
Do it the right proper Changeling way.

1. Form an Oath to help them find the thief.

2. Don't tell them it's a mystical binding thing, and if none of them are Prime users they won't know (and I think the Prime user would have to actively look).

3. Work in a properly fae-like loophole that fucks over the mages for breaking the Oath without realizing it.

4. Utilize the loophole to make the mages break the Oath and fuck them over.

>>50585948

And Your assumption that I was talking about 1ed >>50585597
was your mistake

>>50585842
>"Beautiful madness" was how the writers decided to sum it up
Incidentally, anon, Hill in all his utter idiocy made a post righteously denouncing this tagline as inappropriate and offensive to the mentally ill. That's how much he really gives a shit about "enhancing Changeling's original themes."

>>50585789
They are supposed to be an actual threat, but they're also up their own asses. That's why *in theory* I like Thaddeus. He's this douchey neckbeard katana m'lady fedora tipper mall ninja, but then he uses his Reckoning powers to stab you with a magically imbued weapon and you're dead to this twerp you thought was a joke.

Heroes *should* be getting your ass kicked by Dan Habiki, but their mechanics are garbage.

>>50585842
Except 2e does all that better. 2e actually has mechanics for reclaiming your mortal life right there in the damned corebook! 1e never had that at all!

>>50585854
He didn't, though.

>>50585856
>Capitalism
Oh fuck off. I don't want books that pander to the widest possible audience because "muh capitalism". Nevermind that just because you or others don't like something doesn't mean it won't sell.
>>50585894
>>50585936
It doesn't cater to me, though, I just happen to like a change they made. There are other changes I don't like. They made the change to cater to the theme, not to cater to me.

>>50585895
What?

>>50585947
Aren't you trying to drive me off, though, preventing me from contributing to the thread?

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>>50586013

>>50586028
>1e never had that at all!
Yes it did.

My group even used them.

You should stop arguing about a game you never played. I know this is /tg/, but it's still bad form.

>>50585960
It's part of a historical game with a focus on the Seers trying to force conflict between the Nameless and the Diamond orders to drive the former to join with them. So perhaps have some Nameless Mages offer assistance to the Freehold against a common foe after some subtle suggestions to do so by Seer infiltrators?

All the while that very strong-arming Mage has also fled to the Nameless claiming a similar story about the Changeling? Which is also (to his mind), true?

>>50586004
Fate Also works Anon. Fate is all about Oaths

>>50586028
>Aren't you trying to drive me off, though, preventing me from contributing to the thread?
You don't contribute. You only shitpost.

>>50586004
>and if none of them are Prime users they won't know
Fate would show it (there's one Fate Mage), and the moment they engaged the mystical binding, peripheral Mage Sight would trigger.

>>50586049
What mechanics were those? At best you could merge with your Fetch, but you were still a Changeling.
In 2e you can outright get your soul back.

>>50585906
yeah, but this xir is so PC xir probably hates it. remove the kun bit maybe

>>50586058
>It's only contributing if I agree with it

>>50586028
>I don't want books that pander to the widest possible audience
>It doesn't cater to me, though

I simply cannot believe someone who can type is this daft. Where were you educated? Seriously.

>>50586053
Right. Fate. I meant Fate. They still have to actively look for it, though. Unless they have 4 dots. I think at 4 dots they get a totally BS immunity-for-one-mana Attainment to all fate-changing stuff if it's 2e.

I may be wrong. Been a while since I played. Played for a few months then decided I hated Mage 2e.

>>50586028
You don't even like capitalism, mostly because you don't have any money. Or a job. Or a life.

>>50586082
Are you?
The writers are not writing their book with me in mind. They're writing their book in a way that they feel is appropriate for the game's themes. I just happen to like those themes.

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>>50586028
>Aren't you trying to drive me off, though, preventing me from contributing to the thread?
>he thinks he's contributing

>>50586064
Merging with your Fetch did the following:

1. Gave you the part of your soul back that made the fetch (therefor "get your soul back")
2. Got rid of your Fetch (so it was no longer taking up space in your life)
3. Gave you all your Fetch's memories (thus letting you slip back into your mortal life as if nothing changed)

If you mean "become human again" then that's stupid. I hate when splats can become human again, save for Prometheans where that's the entire point.

>>50586028
>feinting ignorance

Anon please stop replying to this ANon. Nothing gets done, and we never mover forward with this conversation because this Anon does not budget when you spoon feed him the examples

>>50585858
Care to at least give a hint? I know Google-Fu, but i do not follow the WoD forums yet i need to help my ST weed out some "bannable" merits.

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>>50585955
You know, this post is what I'm concerned about in Hurt Locker. Through cultural osmosis, most people have a fairly good idea of what a gun is, even if a sizable chunk of the information is false. But the vast, vast majority of people really don't get combat bowmanship (as opposed to sport or even hunting archery), and that's completely understandable. But it's really jarring that the Hurt Locker preview stuck with the sort of fantasy interpretation.

(sidenote: early on in D&D 3.0 development Wizards designers specifically noted that historical archery is significantly less efficient/effective than how it is portrayed in the game, but defended it on grounds of mechanical balance)

>>50586028
>Aren't you trying to drive me off, though, preventing me from contributing to the thread?
Nope. I do genuinely think the threads you can't post in because you're banned are of significantly higher quality, but I'm not one of those people demanding nobody respond to your posts or everyone redirect you to /d/ or calling for people to report you or whatever.

>>50586083
Well Prime and Fate can still do it. I mean Prime just pings magical something, while Fate pings Oath bindings. But yeah better to double check before doing something crazy.

Btw aren't all the 4dot Attainment super baller in some way? I mean the guy spend the exp better get something back

>>50586028
>contributing

Could you at least post some of those hilarious characters of yours. Lulz will be had.

>>50586049
Please, anon. This is Aspel. He's never *read* the books, let alone played using them. He gets all his info from youtube, wikis, and thesubnet.

>>50586219
I bet you're one of those people who got butthurt when I quoted how you were wrong.

>>50586219
actually I think thesubnet got taken down last summer?

>>50586105
>They're writing their book in a way that they feel is appropriate for the game's themes
Which they make up. And, in order to make a living, is catered to an audience that can pay their wages. The decision is not in a vacuum. By liking said themes you are, by definition, the target audience. If you can't see the problem with your logic here, then that's your problem.

Oh why do I bother? In all seriousness: these threads are much better when you're not here giving your terribly thought-out opinions. There's discussions of rules, themes, and mechanics. That's all I'll say on the matter.

>>50586078
No, you don't contribute because you insist on fighting with everybody for entire threads, not because of your actual views.

>>50586238
>Anon can be IDed as Anon

Aspel is a masterful troll. He derails every thread, and gets everyone salty.

He really is a criminal mastermind.

>>50586238
I bet you're the kind of person that gets butthurt when internet strangers don't agree with every word you say and then goes off to brag about how superior you are to anyone that will listen.

>>50585052
>Actually, again, this is a thing that was there in the fluff but not the mechanics in 1e. Although I'm really having trouble parsing this sentence.

You are wrong there, there were mechanics (thankfully optional) in firsr edition. I wanna say dancers in dusk or equinox roads but i am not sure.

>>50586291
Swords at dawn actually, I think. Dancers in the Dusk had expanded Oneiromancy.

>>50586250
>why bother
Because we all hope that we can be decent people and have decent conversations, and are willing to give strangers the benefit of the doubt until proven that it is fruitless

>>50585909
They'd definitely go get the Summer Court. Either they'd demand you try the thief in a fair court, or they would close ranks and actively try to stop you from taking him.

>>50585166
>Nothing anyone said last thread convinced me that there's anything major changed that isn't a positive change in service of the themes that 1e wanted.

The semi-splat, fae touched is an overcomplicated mess of plot convinience from what it was a simple concept in changeling 1st

>>50586083
>I think at 4 dots they get a totally BS immunity-for-one-mana Attainment to all fate-changing stuff if it's 2e.
Actually that Fate 4 mechanic existed in 1e too. Time and Fate got all the cool not-technically-spells in 1e. Conditional Duration, Target Exemption, Temporal Sympathy, Hung Spells, and that's just at Fate 2 and Time 2. Fate 4 got Unfettered.

>Unfettered
>(Fate ••••)
>A mage with this level of proficiency with the intricacies of Fate has a sixth sense for powers intended to usurp control of his own destiny. The mage can reflexively repel deleterious magics that will or could harm his fate. He can resist falling under the sway of a geas, for example, or shrug off psychic control.
>The mage can reflexively cast an instant countermagic protection under the following circumstances:
>— His soul is being tampered with or attacked
>— He is being forcibly bound into a geas
>— Ill fate (a doomful item, as described under Fate 5) is directed at him
>— A supernatural compulsion to do something he does not wish to do is directed at him
>The mage needs only the Fate Arcanum to counter the attack. He doesn’t need to know all the Arcana involved in the attacking spell.
>Unfettered countermagic can be made against even covert spells. For more information on counter spells, see “Countermagic,” p. 122.

The 2e power works exactly the same, except that it uses the Clash of Wills mechanic. It didn't even cost Mana in 1e. You just do it reflexively whenever. Acanthus having the most broken Arcana is not new to 2e.

>>50585918
>Wraith likewise does as well.
Are you sure?
The interesting thing about Wraith is that it has a massive, fully realized, ironically alive-feeling setting full of other-shit-that's-very-much-going-on. Its factions - the Hierarchy, Renegades, Heretics, and Oblivion - all have very understandable and sympathetic themes and interests. Given how much Oblivion picks up speed during the latter days of the oWoD setting (despite Wraith itself not even getting past 2e) and how it and the Wyrm are fundamentally related, as well as a whole bunch of other significant fluff such as the history explored in DTF, the Underworld is probably the most important places in the whole Umbra. Despite all this, Wraith's mechanics zone in on the PC's personal story first and foremost.
Beyond the splat's basic template and its unique mechanics, such as struggling against one's Shadow and dealing with Harrowings, the whole game both stands on its own as a distinct and functional setting (if you understand how it works) yet simultaneously manages to support the path of personal discovery. The workings of the Shadowlands, the Tempest, the Dark Kingdoms and the Far Shores are all very detailed concepts with clear cut rules and technicalities, perfectly independent of the PC in purpose, yet offer amazing opportunities for personal discovery and choice. Guild politics are actually pretty interesting, but it's no coincidence that the Arcanoi are often so tied up with one's personality and goals.
If you actually read Wraith, even if the core theme is depression, it still does a fuckton to represent its aesthetic and the section of the supernatural it represents - that is, it's about the dead. Rather than focusing on its themes to the exclusion of its ghostly subject matter, Wraith blended it all together in a superb and enthralling way. That's why it succeeded and is loved even to this day. That's why the original Changeling succeeded, too. And that's why Changeling 2e is going to fail.

>>50586185
Legacy Attainments are the only Attainments you have to spend XP to get.

Unless you meant having to spend the XP to get to Fate 4 in the first place.

But yes, the Greater Utility Attainments are basically there to get the other Arcana to the level of bullshit Fate 4 had in 1e.

>>50586378
>plot convinience
To be fair
Ghouls
Sleepwalkers
kinfolk
and most of the minor templates are plot convenience. Especially ghouls for day errands

>>50586324
>until proven that it is fruitless
This happened long, long ago with Aspel, unfortunately.

>>50586285
You know, it's a terribly childish thing to do, but Aspel's posts have previously made me so actually mad that I've previously put off playing CofD altogether for weeks at a time.

I suppose we all hope that it's not that the system attracts this particular type of nuisance, but it's unfortunate all the same. But enough meta. Time to go back to complaining about silvered arrows.

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>>50585973
check it bro

>>50585312
>I hate the bullshit new system where a contract works differently for each Seeming.

That sounds like shit. I was willing to give 2nd edition a chance if i could ignore huntsmen and talecrafting but this, fuck 2nd

>>50586494
Fuck, forgot to circle it.
It's near the end, second to last sentence.
I capped so much text to prove it was actually Birch saying it.

>>50586494
Judging from the tone and style of the passage, I feel like "sexism aside" is an offhand comment meant to mollify more modern members of his congregation. He's not writing this for himself.

>>50586494
Is that all?
Two words which do nothing to shape the remainder of the text?
That's what you're making a fuss about?

>>50586470
>You know, it's a terribly childish thing to do, but Aspel's posts have previously made me so actually mad that I've previously put off playing CofD altogether for weeks at a time.
Huh, it has the opposite effect on me. It makes me look forward to my games all the more, so I get the reminder that people who actually play CofD don't act like Aspel does.

>>50586528
I'd have to agree. It's written more as an acknowledgement of the status of the quoted statement rather than a rebuttal of it. Now, he certainly could actually feel that way, but this is fairly innocuous to some of the more egregious misunderstandings in some other releases (read: mpreg, which hopefully we won't have to go through again)

>>50586401
Wraith was also a nightmare to run. The shadow was a land mine of player fights.

But if the biggest draw of the game is it's other world That's a major departure from the theme of dealing with unfinished business from life. I mean it's just the sad world. it's the dark world. if the entire game is played in the underworld It might as well be playing in a planescape

>>50586597

Wraith was good enough to keep me alive.

>>50586494
>>50586525
Really weak Anon. but points for trying. Not everything can be the new Beast

>>50585472

Me too though for different reasons, by then i will know that all players i dislike in changeling will be playing 2nd and thus i can avoid them. Win win for everyone

>>50586185
Pinging magical something is a function of Mage Sight regardless of Arcana. Prime and Fate don't get a special Peripheral Attainment like Mind/Spirit/Death gets for Mage Sight. So I guess all Mages would ping when an Oath took place, though they wouldn't know what it was without further magic or potentially Focused Mage Sight.

For the Four-Dot attainments:

Death - People have to Clash of Wills to affect your soul (including possession) or aura if you spend a Mana.

Fate - Same, but with geas or supernatural compulsion or changes to destiny.

Forces - Immunity to Environmental Tilts for a mana

Life - Same as Death, but for body alteration, supernatural attacks that deal damage or personal tilts

Matter - Can modify the durability of things for Mana

Mind - Spend a mana when you roll 3+ on Mental or Social rolls for an exceptional success.

Prime - Create Imbued items

Space - Affect a bigger AoE with mana instead of Reach (basically less Paradox)

Spirit - Gain Rank like a Spirit. You get to bully Spirits around and your attacks become Banes to weaker ones.

Time - Can spend Mana to cast faster instead of Reach.

Some are definitely better than others. Time is probably the most practical. Forces and Matter basically only do what you can already do with spells. Death/Fate/Life are badass as fuck but very situational. Not everything you face is going to be able to do those things to you.

>>50586568
Welcome to the thread.

You better not argue against the circlejerk, though. If you actually LIKE things, the thread will turn on you.

>>50586646
Hey I'm not knocking it. If you got something good from it. Good for you. I just have personally find it a logistic nightmare. My bro likes it and my Gm is running an Orpheus story. I just like running other stuff to each their own

>>50585766
>Screaming "JUST GO PLAY DRESDEN FILES" doesn't really excuse getting hedged out of a game we already know and enjoy, (especially when people in these very threads admit that the version of Fate in DFRPG is shit).

To be fair we arent getting hedge out really, we got a complete run from 1st edition. attajasomething group are the ones getting hedge out like jews on the camps lure by the false promise of a 2nd edition but in reality they will get 1 corebook and maybe a supplement 3 years down the road.

Thats the saddest fate.

>>50586762
How did you get passed the captcha?

>>50586702
4chan has always been overtly dickish, not particularly something special. The thread is just very critical about sub quality material. Also

>>50586672
>>50586594
>>50586528
>>50586568

Of rebuttal. It's not that we hate things, it's just that we're looking fro something to tear apart. you know like piranha

>>50586024

Wow hill sounds like an utter parody of what the internet thinks a SJW is.

>>50586028
>Except 2e does all that better. 2e actually has mechanics for reclaiming your mortal life right there in the damned corebook! 1e never had that at all!

Why do you need mechanics for that? That should be one of those "we handle it through rp" kind of situations.

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>>50586028
>preventing me from contributing to the thread?

>contributing

>>50586914
Because this isn't a rules-lite system. Having mechanics is a good thing.

>>50586128

The only time this happened in my games it was a highlander 1 scene "there can be only one" it was fucking glorious

This Secrets of the Covenants book has far more Florida representation than I expected.

>>50586982
Killing your fetch isn't merging. There's actually like five different merits for this. You get one based on how you dealt with your fetch.

One option is to "merge" by talking and coming to terms and genuinely understanding one another. That's the one that gets you your soul piece and memories.

This is still 1e.

>>50582854
>>50582854
Did they get FUCKING MYKAL LAKIM of VAMPIRE: UNDEATH fame to write for Secret of the Covenants? Holy shit.

>>50586914
"We handle it through RP" and "there are mechanics for it" aren't mutually exclusive. But if my character is meant to be suffering hardships, it's more immersive and has a better emotional feel to if it there's mechanical baggage. I mean, you could argue that *everything* could be handled through RP. But we still think there should be mechanics for combat and interacting with the world, and those aren't even thematic elements of the game.

Mechanics can help reinforce a tone. You have people in the thread who try to act like the Conditions replace roleplaying, but it's a lot easier to understand that your character is injured if they're actually taking penalties due to injury. It forces you to do certain things.

I'm going to use a video game metaphor. Not because I think that the two things are one in the same, but because video games are a more visual and kinesthetic medium than elfgames.
You know how sometimes in games your character will be injured, or drugged, or otherwise not at the top of their game, and the animation for their walk cycle will change? Maybe they'll hold their side, or lean on walls when they pass, or be really slow? The opening to MGSV is good on that, and so are parts of Tomb Raider 2013.
That helps sell that your character is injured and hurt. It makes you as the player feel it by changing the rules. They don't *tell* you that you're hurt, they *show* it.

That's what mechanics do. They show you things. You're still roleplaying the actual results of it, but having mechanics to reinfo--

Oh. Uh... fuck me, I just realized you specifically meant "why do you need mechanics for reclaiming your mortal life", not "why does 2e need mechanics to reinforce the themes of Changeling in a broader sense".
You don't, really, but it's nice to have it presented as an option, even if it is a dangerous and expensive and emotionally taxing procedure.

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>>50586597
To be fair, I as the ST always ran Shadows for the players. It just made sense to me because I had a more omniscient perspective on the PCs and could always really discuss with the players one-on-one about their character's depths and use that in how their Shadows were portrayed. It worked just fine, granted, but it wasn't technically the way it was supposed to be played. It would really take an extremely advanced, skilled group to play it the way it's mean to - the sort of group I don't think you're likely to find in real life these days, to be frank. Everything is just too different.

>But if the biggest draw of the game is it's other world
That's not what I said. I said it had an absolutely superb setting that both felt intricate, massive, and - even as fundamentally dead as it was - "alive" while also perfectly juggling its themes and focus. On that note, it's actually pretty exceptional how strong the symbolism in the Underworld is, too.

>I mean it's just the sad world. it's the dark world.
The original purpose of the Underworld from all appearances (especially if you want to go by DTF) is actually one of spiritual purification and redemption, but things went tits-up and the Malfeans hijacked it. Then the Order of Reason caused the Shroud to strengthen, severely hampering a Wraith's ability to use the Shadowlands. By all accounts, Wraiths are very definitely meant to achieve Transcendence and move on, but the fact is that entire civilizations have risen and fallen within the place by now and the fucking Maw of the Void is churning at its innermost depths. There's shit going on.

>if the entire game is played in the underworld It might as well be playing in a planescape
You don't have to stay in the Underworld always, especially since Arisen are definitely a thing, but given how difficult it is to pass the Shroud otherwise (and the Dictum Mortuum), you rightfully should be spending most of the game there if you're not dead set on Transcendence.

>>50584798
>Freelancer

Was that AmyV? They probably ripped out everything she did so she didn't have to get paid. Fucking drama whore.

>>50586463

I think you miss what plot convinience is in this context, fae touched in 1st were changeling that escaped half changed, like half baked gingerbread men. Now they are humans to just happen to make a promise to another human who just happen to be kidnapped and turned into a changeling. And said promised just happen to be worded as to be unfullfilled. And said mortal just happen to follow fate to the hedge or something like that.

>>50587050
>Bitching about Amy
Give it up, Anon.

>>50587065
I feel like you're making it seem more complicated than it actually is

>>50587000
>Killing your fetch isn't merging. There's actually like five different merits for this. You get one based on how you dealt with your fetch.
>One option is to "merge" by talking and coming to terms and genuinely understanding one another. That's the one that gets you your soul piece and memories.
>This is still 1e.

Yup he went the understanding route. The fetch went to the pc dream each session and they would talk and walk each other dreams exploring the life both had and envy of each other. Until they realize they were both glorifying ideals instead of seeing reality.

And the merging was a symbolic swordfight with both accepting each other and accepting that whoever won the beheading draw would remain.