Warmachine/Hordes General

Hopefully it will stay up for a while. I was thinking about ordering Broken Egg's new token set for Protectorate. Does anyone have it already? How are the token sizes? I've heard they take up a lot of real estate.

2nd for January and the year of Skorne.

>>50558721
What? New Amon mini, or just a conversion?

I'm predicting another year of Cygnar, seeing as most people at PP and their forums are apparently blatantly oblivious to balancing.

Or year of circle.

JUSTICE FOR CRYX

>>50559745
Honestly, Cygnar could unironically use a few buffs here and there. They're really propped up by a handful of very good models, with quite a bit of shit standing on the sidelines.

Like Gunmages. I don't think I've seen a single tournament list run them since Mk3 dropped. And it's not hard to see why, they're incredibly underwhelming. Same for Trencher Commandos and Swordknights, the eternal bridesmaids.

>>50559955
Every faction has this problem and it should be resolved in due time, but the problem lies with the things they do field.

Storm Lances outclass everything so much that everything else looks like unplayable trash in comparison. But if you compare Cygnars "unplayable" units to some other factions like Cryx, Legion, Skorne etc. you'll find them quite average or even good in most occasions.

On top of that, some factions don't even have enough strong models to even create 2 reliable lists where Cygnar has access to a multitude of great casters, jacks, solo's and a variety of game-plans.

I say create cross-faction stability and balance first, then start working on in-faction balance.

>>50559955
I'd kill for Gun Mages in my army.

t. Skorne player whose only routinely fielded infantry is Beast Handlers

Hi, ladies and gents, I've got a question for you: with a list like this, how fucked am I? I dropped off in Mk1, completely ignored Mk2 and I was thinking to come back with Mk3, and learning the ropes again with this. These models are what I've left after selling everything else.

(Mortenebra 1) Master Necrotech Mortenebra [+24]
- Deryliss
- Deathripper [6]
- Deathripper [6]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Defiler [8]
- Defiler [8]
Pistol Wraith [5]
Wrong Eye [17]
- Snapjaw
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (min) [12]
Machine Wraith [2]

>>50560592
Semi-fucked.

Cryx took a huge hit and is now overall bottom tier. Most models in the faction either suffer from a ton of weaknesses, undead tax and broken interactions (the bad kind, such as spell slave no longer functioning on most spells). As such, Mortenebra is also suffering from this.

Lucky for you, most of your models are still pretty decent and Wrong Eye + Snapjaw are great! Mercs are generally better then our in-faction options now and the Nyss Hunters and Orin are solid pieces. Slayers, Pistol Wraith are just about right.

All in all, the main thing you'd need to bring this list from meh to okay is to replace a couple of arc nodes with either different lights or 1-2 different heavies. Don't expect to win big tournaments but it'll work just fine on most tables.

Unless your opponents only play Cygnar/Khador/Circle/Ret and insist on only bringing the good stuff. In that case, anyone not playing the same thing is straight fucked anyway.

>>50560769
Would it be better if I changed all the lights with a Harrower and a couple of Nightwretches?

>>50560973
Oh, and removing also the Machine Wraith.

>>50560973
Probably, the problem with the arc node lights is that they don't have the defense and power to provide any use in combat. Nightwretch is my preferred node because of his decent-pow shot, which gets an extra focus with Morty.

Also, to make use of Sacrificial Lamb you want some cheap pawns like Scrap Thralls to sacrifice. Maybe throw in a couple of Necrotechs for some repairs and more Scrappies.

>>50561023
Machine Wraiths are really good imo, I'd rather make room for more if you have em.

Keeping the core to the models you own I'd go with something like this:

http://conflictchamber.com/#b41b111f1v1v1v1p1p2n2n2k2k752of0

Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points

http://conflictchamber.com/#b41b111f1v1v1v1p2n2n2k2k752obF

Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points

(Mortenebra 1) Master Necrotech Mortenebra [+24]
- Deryliss
- Nightwretch [7]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Harrower [16]
Necrotech [2]
Necrotech [2]
Machine Wraith [2]
Machine Wraith [2]
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (max) [19]
Scrap Thrall [2]
Wrong Eye [17]
- Snapjaw


Then again it's pretty hard to build an optimal army with a small collection like this, especially in Cryx right now and I haven't played a lot of jack heavy games. I feel Morty wants more cheap jacks like Shrike and Scavenger, but she is crippled by her low WJ points.

Best thing you can do is give it a whirl and see how you like it, maybe change a piece here and there.

There's also a big errata coming in January which will supposedly give Cryx some more resistance against gunlines, so you might wanna hold off any purchases until then.

>>50560052
Fucking this. Also Cygnar gets several full caster reworks (Kraye, Kara, Caine2), and some of us get fucking nothing (Skorne springs screamingly to mind, the fuck did they do to Makeda). And then they randomly nerf crap out of nowhere (Constance, Shae, Grogspar). Units that have been bad forever (Highshields, whatever) continue to be irrelevant. I almost honestly believe they balance via dartboard at this point.
Magical January errata better be fucking amazing.
Mind you, outside of terrain, and steamroller geometry, core rules are pretty gud.

>>50561391
Yep, January is definitely going to be my make-or-break point for this game. They're not getting a third chance.

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>>50561438
Occam's Razor, or whatever. They will do a bare minimum, unnerf Skorne and that's probably about it, and it'l be a shitshow.
Fuck this release schedule too, they can't fix that in January.
And where are my goddamn Minion/Merc themes?

I am fucking mad about toy soldiers. Goddamn.

>>50561455

I know the feeling, I haven't been this worked up about something in a long time. Started about 2 years ago and thought I had finally found a game I'd be able to play/collect almost entirely.

And don't even get me started on grindball or whatever else they're working on. Just fix your fucking game first!

>>50560592
SKREEEONK

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Hi there, /tg/.
It's your friendly cryxian pirate with (not so) new booty - No Quarter 69. Have fun.

> http://www115.zippyshare.com/v/1MN3bhjS/file.html


I play a lot less lately and kinda put this game on hiatus for myself. That's why I got this NQ only now, though it was released for a while already. But anyway I hope I'll bring you new magazines and rulebooks in the future too. When they'll come out. Just maybe not as quickly as before.

>>50561525
Not only grind, but they are making at least 3 mini spin-off shitty games. That's valuable developer hours you could be fixing your shit with.
Turns out inner-faction balance is as important as everyone having one list thats playable.

>>50561599
Bless or curse you and your piracy.
Whatever you like most.

>>50561599
Thanks anon!

>>50558721
No nipples, no Amon

>>50558741
I've got it, if I had the option of buying it again, I'd get Muse's set.

Broken Egg's tokens smell funky, and you have to scrape off the paper left over from the acrylic, which is annoying as fuck. And it only has one of several tokens which you could often use multiples of (specifically, there's only one Enliven, and I often have two up in my Amon list, and there's only one Battle Driven, which I often have two up in my Kreoss3 list). In addition, the tokens are one-sided while the Muse ones are two-sided.

The tokens themselves are beautiful, but I'd rather have a Muse set.

If anyone has scans of the theme lists from the Trollblood book, please post them or send them to [email protected].

I've got them working as per the leaks from Chain Attack on Conflict Chamber, but I'd really like to see the actual phrasing of some stuff, as some minor wording differences could make a difference in how some models interact with the theme.

>>50560769
>>50561175
>>50561341

Well, gents, I think I solved my problem, I somehow found out I had a Warwitch Deneghra tucked away (and a THIRD Defiler, I must have had a real boner for Mortenebra's Hellchicken Farm), so if what's on Battlecollege is just about right, for the time being (until January at least) I could scrape by without buying anything (and by using Deryliss as a normal Scarlock) with something like this:

http://conflictchamber.com/#b41b0x2A1v1v1v19191a1abF7y742t2k

Cryx Army - 75 / 75 points

(Deneghra 1) Warwitch Deneghra [+28]
- Skarlock Thrall [4]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Slayer [10]
- Deathripper [6]
- Deathripper [6]
- Defiler [8]
- Defiler [8]
Wrong Eye [17]
- Snapjaw
Orin Midwinter, Rogue Inquisitor [5]
Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (min) [12]
Pistol Wraith [5]
Machine Wraith [2]

What do you gents think?

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I've been out of the loop for a couple weeks. Where/what are the spoilers for Madrak3 and the Trollblood theme forces? Any anon able to hook an anon up?

>>50562094
Denny is a pretty good caster still, but she has trouble running multiple heavies because she needs most of her focus to be effective.

Denny generally wants a few nodes and maybe a heavy at most, filling the rest up with units, solos en stuff like Wrong Eye & Snapjaw.

Mortenebra wants a ton of jacks with some support, some sacrificial pawns for her ability and maybe a unit or 2 to keep the enemy distracted.

I recommend just trying out some stuff and see what problems you run into.

>>50560769
Is Cryx really in such a bad spot? Leaving their obvious problems with gunlines aside, the Satyxis units, as well as Bane Knights still look quite good.
The Slayer-Chassis Jacks and their character jacks also look quite good. The Slayer itself is pretty cheap and still packs an ok punch.
They also have a few good warcasters (Denny, Scaverous and Coven look pretty good), much like some other factions that are considered good.
Sure, they got nerfed, but if they can deal with gunlines again, shouldn't they go to the upper mid tier? Or are they really fucked in other areas as well?

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>>50559690
Oh it's my conversion, I just used that Prisma app to make a cool picture

>>50559548
xth for Skorne putting the PAIN in PAINTING. Up next: 10 Karax, 12 Swordsmen and Zaadesh1. It's going to be an enjoyable christmas.

>>50560076
>I'd kill for Gun Mages in my army.
>t. Skorne player whose only routinely fielded infantry is Beast Handlers
Play Reivers. Reivers are really good and probably better than ATGM right now.

>>50560592
Replace Mortenebra with any other caster and you'll be fine against anything but top tier tournament lists.

>>50563366
Playing RAT5 infantry with no buffs when everyone else has RAT6+ and buffs is just shit. Dakar is just more turd polishing and points spent on support.

>>50563423
Or I guess you can keep whining. Whatever works for you.

>>50563444
Neither works. That's why people have been selling Skorne collections and why there are mountains of battleboxes left.

>>50562444
What's good in Cryx is middling to okay in other factions. Our Helljacks are playable now but the Slayer chassis is still way too easy to hit - DEF13 isn't hard to hit and we don't even have the ARM or boxes to stand up to small arms fire. Combine that with how much anti-Stealth tech there is out there now and it all makes for a fairly grim picture

If everybody hates mk3 so much why not just play with mk2 rules?

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Just finished my new Unit leader. Paints thinned and hopefully a better colorc scheme than last time. I am the SoH guy you flattered with those rad comments btw.

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>>50564349

>>50564342
Because for all the whining, Mk2 somehow managd to be more broken. It had way more incredibly broken shit, especially theme forces, and while we now have new balance issues, they are far less numerous.

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>>50564364

>>50564376
Only a small percentage of theme forces saw competitive play, and those usually used otherwise shit models and made skews of them on par with normal lists full of good models. Balance issues seem bigger than before, especially the power disparity between warmachine and hordes. Also, a huge complaint I heard in most podcasts was removing flavour rules, including psychology, and trading quality for quantity in terrain. The game seems super bland now that every ua traded their unique ability for reposition.

>>50564385
That is an all around good job but use less wash and more highlights. And for god sake straighten that spear.>>50564505

>>50564528
Missclicked, didnt mean to tag
>>50564505
Stupid phones.

>>50564528
Thanks. Spear had already been fixed. Sadly my lamp sucls but it looks much better in RL than on a small picture. The red higliths get a bit overlightet but are quite good.

Quick question, does anybody know how to print those card pdfs in a scale similar to real cards? What settings should I need?

>>50564349
>>50564364
Maybe pick out the trim on the bottom of the tabard? It's not bad otherwise. I would have made the armor and cloth different colors myself, tho.

SKREEONK, BABYY

>>50564376
Mk2 was way more balanced all around, the main problem was that some factions had a lot of issues and pp worked themselves in the corner.

So they did Mk3, kept the same issues but put them in different factions and also managed to create a ton of broken interactions and caused more then 50% of all models to be dropped from competitive play.

And then there are Skorne and Cryx...

>>50561599

You're scholar and gentleman, bro!!!

>>50566674
>Mk2 was way more balanced all around

Bullshit. For all it's flaws, Mk3 is far better balanced than Mk2 was.

Even the boogymen of Mk3 are far less of a pain in the ass than Mk2's versions.

Another question from the Mortenebra faggot from before, ladies and gents. I was thinking of dragging someone else with me in this, so, since I saw that there are some new starter battleboxes, I was thinking of buying one of them as a Christmas gift to my companion in this particular adventure (I was thinking of Menoth, since I know he likes the overall look of the faction). So, to cut it short, I need a "battlebox list" for myself, from what I have of course, and I was thinking about this:

Warwitch Deneghra
Slayer
Slayer
Defiler

Would it be considered balanced in this new edition?

how well do you guys think a format in which you can only use small-based minis would be balanced? I was thinking something small like a 10-point list being used in an extremely enclosed environment, but I'm not sure how that would affect the 'jack-heavy factions.

>>50563223
>No nipples
>0/10

>>50567406
I can't see it being balanced at all.

Trolls basically don't get to play, for example, and factions like CoC are incredibly limited in their options.

Meanwhile, Cyngar loses practically nothing beyond Stormlances and some warcasters they don't care about anyways.

>>50567566
would increasing it to 25 points and playing a more courtyard-type environment with medium bases make it a bit more balanced?

>>50567593
When you say "only use small-based minis", you mean no light or heavy jacks/beasts/etc?

The answer is "omg no".

Jacks/beasts are the answer to too many problems in the game for it to work without them.

If you bump it up to medium bases, then Butcher3 basically kills every other legal list *by himself*.

>>50567680
ngl, I forgot about Butcher3
well, that kinda kills the fun of my idea.

>>50567406
Warmachine player detected.

>>50567727
you caught me, there's no Hordes faction I care about yet

>>50567680
You mean Butcher3, Madrak2, and Makeda3 all kill lthe entire enemy army by themselves.

>>50566947
Lies. At least everyone got to play in mk2.

Mk3 forces you to play certain models/factions or stay home.

>>50567739
>you caught me, there's no Hordes faction I know anything about yet
Fixed.

>>50567769
>At least everyone got to play in mk2.
Highly dependent on your faction. Skorne had 2 tier lists (Xerxis1, Rasheth), Mordikaar, and Karn assassinations. Beyond that, nothing could keep up at a competitive level.

>>50567788
Still more then Skorne has now.

Even Trolls, Legion, Cryx and Minions only have 1-2 viable setups, all of which are all still inferior to Khador, Cygnar, Ret and Circle lists.

>>50567858
Sure, but the upper level of those Cyngar, Ret, and Circle lists is far less than what Mk2 brought.

There's no Haley2s, no Denny2s, no L2. Hell, I'd argue none of the gunlines right now compare to the bullshit that was L2 in the slightest.

>>50567788
Eh, I could probably go to discount games and find somebody who won a tournament with some cheesy gunline on some niche caster or the immortal tier list or any other skew.

>>50567788
>Skorne had 2 tier lists (Xerxis1, Rasheth), Mordikaar, and Karn assassinations. Beyond that, nothing could keep up at a competitive level.
Now Skorne has one list and the rest can't keep up at a casual level.

>>50567952
Depends on what you define as a casual level.

>>50567913
Haley2 is still miles above the curve and the general level on otber factions was brought down so much that the gap got bigger then it was in mk2.

>>50567968
>Depends on what you define as a casual level.
Not even that guy but I'm like 1-9 against the local Legion player with Skorne. He doesn't do anything special, it's just that I can't really bring infantry because it's all shit, and he can get to my heavies before I get to his. The one list he's talking about is probably Rasheth, who would be mediocre in any other faction. It's not even a list, it's just a caster. The lists vary.

>>50568002
>The one list he's talking about is probably Rasheth
Hell no.

>>50567968
Opponent of similar skill with a non-terrible list in a real faction.

>>50567991
Haley2 might still be powerful, but she's not Mk2 powerful.

Anyone who says she is never played against a good Mk2 Haley.

>>50568085
Sure, but two players of similar skill generally means a competitive bent in Warmachine.

I'm not debating Skorne aren't bad they sure as shit need fixing, but this feels like rose tinted googles for Mk2. There was shitloads of terrible shit in Mk2 that people just don't remember how frustrating it was(mostly because they'd been playing with the proper counters for years)\

Nothing in Mk3 is like Gaspy2, for example, where you'd practically table him and he'd still win soundly. Or how much he fucked infantry over.

>>50568144
>rose tinted googles for Mk2
Absolutely. I think a lot of disappointment with Mk3 comes from the expectation that it would be noticably better than Mk2. And it really just is a different kind of broken right now. That can - and I think will - improve a lot next month. I hope it's on time to save the game.

>>50568211
So little changed is another issue. They put in a game mode that no one gives a shit about and that's about it.

We needed something new to make Mk3 feel like more than a big, rushed errata.

>>50568144
It doesn't matter how powerful they all were because they were on a shared level.

In mk3 only a few factions reach the upper level, creating a worse balance.

And haley2 is still just as annoying.

>>50568211
I dont think my glasses are rose tinted. Mk2 design was suprisingly neat, polished and concise for how long it was up. Mk3 feels like it cut all the parts that felt right out and added flashy out of place things to compensate.

>>50568277
>Infantrymachine

>>50568277
>Mk3 feels like it cut all the parts that felt right out
What for example?

>added flashy out of place things to compensate
I can see that in some places. The new terrain types come to mind. But with a few little changes they could really grow into something great


>>50568232
>So little changed is another issue. They put in a game mode that no one gives a shit about and that's about it.
Oh come on. Mk3 added more than that.

>>50568277
So 2 factions and about 75% of all models didn't feel right?

>>50568328
80% of 2 factions and about 30% of all other factions.

>>50568309
Right things would be fear/morale and all related abilities, wreck markers, deep water, toeing into terrain, 8 wound infantry and many support model abilities that got unreasonably unorganically changed, like verendeye no longer supporting himself of riflemen.

The problem with most models is they're designed to be answers, when list chicken makes that unreliable. Keltarii are a natural DEF15 against shooting and even then you need 5s to kill with a POW10 shot. But if you bring them and the Ret player doesn't field Ossyan/Issyria, you've lost because Keltarii are ONLY a counter to shooting.

>>50568423
>fear/morale and all related abilities
Fuck no. Good thing those are gone. I would have preferred them to get improved instead, but I will take no fear system over a shitty one.
>wreck markers
Honestly meh. Don't mind either way.
>deep water
Are you taking the piss? Nobody used that shit ever for a damn good reason.
>toeing into terrain
Yup. I miss that too.
>8 wound infantry
Oh yes. They sadly won't return, but maybe we can get good stats on those models instead.
>support model abilities
Like for example? I mean Battle getting nerfed was fine, Protectorate is still top tier, more so than ever. Beast Handlers are getting their stuff back.

>>50568503
>maybe we can get good stats on those models instead
Cetrati are getting tough AND set defense ;^)

>>50568585
And a look at their points cost. That could very well be enough.

Does anyone have the trollbloods card deck in pdf that I might have a copy of?

>>50568604
Cetrati most likely won't be nudged, but Arcuarii and Incindiarii are coming right the fuck down.

>>50568627
>Arcuarii and Incindiarii are coming right the fuck down
I seriously hope so. Though I'd prefer them to just get good instead.

>>50568423
>8 wound infantry

That won't come back for the very specific reason in that they were stepping all over the toes of warjacks in terms of role, often doing it straight up better.

>>50568708
Not so sure about that. Warjacks had no role in Mk2 and that was not because of heavy infantry.

>>50568708
>they were stepping all over the toes of warjacks in terms of role
No they weren't. What stepped all over warjacks was that small based infantry could relatively easily wipe a heavy off the table. Why bring heavies to kill heavies when small guys can kill heavies without needing to worry about focus?

>>50562444
I'll just address this in order:
>Satyxis, Bane Knights

Bane Knights, Blood Witches and Nyss are still, IMO, the only real infantry choices in the army for most casters. There are exceptions, I like raiders with Lich3. Everything else really needs too much external support. Issues with Cryx infantry- Expensive, fragile, bad direction/ carry over bias from MKII has hamstrung a lot of options. Bane Knights get shredded by gunlines, particularly e-leaps which don't trigger vengeance.

>Slayer
It cost 10 points of who gives a fuck. Inflictor is 13 points and is an outstanding Jack that now exists in the real world.

>Character Jacks
They're all pretty good. Erebus has the stateline that all SLayers should have. Def14. Just make them a worse warpwolf. Nightmare- excellent. DJ- expensive but still really great. Bathroom-has some play, lack of open fists kind of sucks, wish he could charge for free.

>Casters
Yeah we have a few good warcasters, but in a world where everyone else kept their S tier casters it means nothing. You can't drop Denny1 into everything. Loosing the utility and flexibility of Lich2 really hurt Cryx because he had the most reliable way of getting up the field.


>Final Thoughts
Entertaining the scenario where Cryx now deals with Gunlines, Cryx still has huge gaps in terms of viability. The magic is very inefficient, the units are still blah and overpriced. The options are pretty lackluster. I also think in general the game is a lot less 'tricksy' than last edition and that has hurt Cryx as well.

>>50568730
>>50569133
Not in that fashion.

Heavies in Steamroller are good at holding points/zones, requiring dedicated effort to remove them, especially late game.

But once you started seeing medium base infantry that could reach heavy levels of ARM(and weren't cripplingly slow) you started seeing them hold zones just as well, if not better than jacks, while providing far more utility. Things like the rise of MMM and it's variants showcased this issue, and while Warders were the worst offender, there were a lot of other units that were doing the same thing.

>>50569215
>Yeah we have a few good warcasters

Coven is S-tier, imo. Only one in Cryx, but they can do some sick stuff on the table and play amazingly well into the gunline meta.

Problem is there's not a good pairing for them.

>>50569332
... And then killed jacks more efficiently than jacks killed them.

>>50569423
I think Denny1 is S tier. I don't care for Coven at all, they were gimmicky in MKII and I don't like their fluff (totally a valid reason), so I never really gave them more than a once over in MKIII. I haven't played since like July, so IDK if they are better now in the meta. I doubt it.

I work for PP. First time since I started no holiday bonuses. Morale is bad.

>>50569974
make some good minis and expand the game in a way that invites new players more freely and maybe you'll have the money to give holiday bonuses.

Do we have any pics of the new theme lists yet?

>>50570478
If he's posting on 4chan about it, I doubt he's in a position to make those kinds of decisions.

>>50563366
>Rat 5 with no buffs
CRA, mortality, Rasheth's feat, black spot, Makeda 2 has a knockdown on hit spell. There's quite a few things in faction to improve accuracy and damage. Coming in at spd 6 and rng 12, with reposition 3. It's expensive, but they're not a bad unit by any means, even given faction support.

Skorne has a lot of issues, but reivers, karax, ferox, slingers, and their solos aren't problems. Before you say the rest is shit, most factions have 70% shit unit selection. No one is creaming themselves over tharn, storm anything-but-lances, exemplars, or Man-O-Wars.

Personally, I think a lot of their beasts are overcosted and suffer from poor enough threat ranges that the premeasuring dance makes going second REALLY hurt. And there isn't a heavy like the ironclad (I know, I know), the juggernaut, or the crusader that are effective enough to offer as a piece to trade, especially with the added cost of handlers. The premium beast cost in addition to the gladiator and handlers tax to function as normal feels like you're playing down points in every game. I think Makeda 2, Xerxes 1, Hexeris 2, Zaadesh 2, Naaresh, and Morghoul 1 are all legitimate casters.

>>50569974
Morale is bad on the outside too. January better be fucking magical.

>>50571906
>over tharn
>exemplars
>Man-O-Wars
B-but i do...

Do prone enemies block a charge?

Like if there is a dude you wanna charge, but an enemy knocked prone in between you are the dude, does the prone stop the charge?

>>50573626
Yes, they would stop you unless you have flight, incorporeal, or acrobatics.

>>50573701

Thanks

:*

Why do Warmahordes players hate terrain? Alternatively, if I do see terrain it's usually flat cut outs instead of 3d terrain.

Just my opinion but terrain makes war-games fun and interesting. If I wanted a hardcore turn based strategy war-game without it I'd just go play chess instead.

>>50573963
Warmachine is an incredibly precise game, to the point that games have been won and lost on quarters and even eights of an inch. So wobbly model syndrome is entirely unacceptable. Terrain also has specific measurements involved with it as well, for example, models can only see through 3" of a forest, so being able to measure the terrain is a big deal.

Past that, there's also an issue in the terrain has very powerful effects on the game. In the most extreme cases of Mk2, you could know who was going to win a given game just by terrain placement, something that Mk3 tried to fix. How well that worked is a point of contention, but the fact remains that terrain has a massive effect on the game.

A lot of warmachine players don't actually hate terrain, I've found. I'd love to play games on some scenic tables, and I know a lot of other players would as well. But when the game's competitive, that shit can't fly, because it gives a huge advantage to a player.

>>50573963
>>50574104
Our club is actually having a terrain day later today. Any ideas for cool looking playable terrain? We already have good flat terrain printed on that mousepad material, and some houses and walls and stuff.

>>50573963
2d terrain (except for obstacles and obstructions) improves playability. And we don't hate terrain, last event I played at had quite a lot of it on each table.

>>50574364
>Any ideas for cool looking playable terrain?
Anything that can easily go from 3d to 2d. Like forests with removable trees.

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>>50574793
We got those tho. Resin large bases with 1-3 trees on em. I'm working on some birch trees too

Anyone know a good site in the UK that sells flat terrain for this game?

>>50575758
Then maybe something similar for clouds or rubble?

>>50575990
We have some rubble, I think we're making some more. Clouds are interesting but I don't have any cotton

>>50575922
I don't think this game needs any specific terrain - regular trees and hills will do. But if you want something better, there is this shop:
> http://www.waylandgames.co.uk

Doesn't brought anything from them myself, but seems ok

>>50574104
The thing is, wargaming is an inherently imprecise hobby. You knocked over a model? Someone bumped the table? A few dice were thrown a bit too vigorously in the direction of some infantry? Good luck getting everything back where it was previously. Obviously the game is often played at very competitive levels, but especially with premeasuring, I think a bit of wiggle room (literal and metaphorical) has to be accepted. You can measure the distance between two models and agree with your opponent that it's 11", then move your model into a forest and if you can't get the last half-inch because a tree is in the way, well, that still counts as 11".

>>50577141
>The thing is, wargaming is an inherently imprecise hobby
No reason to ad any more imprecision.

>>50576109
I don't remember where I saw it, but there was a picture of a game in progress with train tracks and flatbed railcars on it being used as terraced elevation. That's what I would build if I was looking into starting a terrain project.

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>>50577440
Thats us too. Same table actually.

So....any leaked pdf of the theme force book?

>>50581221
I for one am still waiting for the Trollbloods faction deck.

Honestly, how fucking retarded is it that you basically have to blind-buy everything if you don't want to pirate.

>>50581355

Damn right.

Also, not even sure if the Warroom app will feature the theme force without paying for more.

>>50581502
It is free. The theme forces for cephalix and kingmaker and thornfall already in there

>>50581502
War Room still doesn't have Thornfall.

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>>50581564

>>50581598
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?264935-OFFICIAL-War-Room-Technical-Difficulties-(Thornfall-Alliance-Theme-Force)&p=3752928&viewfull=1#post3752928

>>50581630
A company paid by PP to do it continues to lag behind a random guy on the internet working in his free time.

>>50581676

"Company" in the loosest sense of the term, I think it's one random troggy working for PP

>>50581355
>https://mega.nz/#!mgMgGQzQ!EXfuRmaJYKSFkwn0ugwpv1fM-Bg-Xdl7jO7KqNS9ges
That's the version I have. From what I've seen nothing's changed in the final one.

>>50583223
Tinkherhouse games does War Room.

>>50583983
It's a one man outfit

>>50584075
Given that there's two founders who both work there...

>>50584634
And they're both severely mentally challenged...

It is nice that pp employs the disabled. But I'd also like quality product. I get no good feels about tards having jobs when I'm constantly cursing out their shoddy workmanship and the failings of their products.

I mean, it is quite clear that soles has intellectual difficulties.
>and I'm not even actually talking about his hair and attire!

Slowpoke in the thread.
Did PP change their policy recently? No more official digital books for WarmaHordes?

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Played this list against a khador list and got totally owned. What did I do wrong?

http://conflictchamber.com/#b21b152e3q1U1U2d302s3t3r3r3E3B

Protectorate Army - 74 / 75 points

Avatar of Menoth [20]
(Harbinger 1) The Harbinger of Menoth
- Hierophant
- Crusader
- Crusader
- Vanquisher
Choir of Menoth (max)
Exemplar Cinerators (max)
Vassal Mechanik
Paladin of the Order of the Wall
Paladin of the Order of the Wall
High Paladin Dartan Vilmon
Wrack

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>>50581630

They're so fucking amateur it's hilarious.

Kids running a business. If Will Shick was actually running a business and not a clubhouse, he would have been let go multiple times now.

They're just a fucking joke at this point.

Look at how Infinity manages their electronic IP. Look at their Army Builder, how slick it is then compare it to this smut. Shick and company should be let go...

>>50588534
>What did I do wrong?
Faction choice was your big mistake.

>>50589153
Nothing wrong with menoth

>>50588534
Going to need more info. What was the Khador list?

>>50589317
But there's even less wrong with Khador.

>>50589349
Scorcha
Widowmakers
Mortar team
Behemoth
A knife wielding assassin ? Mercenaries
Kommandos

>>50589552
Which Sorcha?

But from the looks of it, you likely got assassinated at range, which is Harby's biggest weakness now. If that was your issue, then you need Shield Guards to super protect Harby.

If that's the case, I'd suggest finding space for Rhoven and Co, and possibly finding some space(Likely dropping Avatar, he's generally regarded as overcosted at this moment) for a Vigilant.

Leaves you 3 points to play with and four shield guards for Harby.

>>50588534
Dartan Vilmon is a good start, but Harbinger probably needs more shield guards to survive. Rhoven and Co. are a good choice, as is any combination of Devout or Templar. The Vigilant gives her Cover and Girded, which can be a big deal. The Covenant of Menoth stops everything in a 5" bubble from being KD or Stationary, which will save you from Sorscha1's feat most of the time. Infantry are usually season to taste, but I have been on the receiving end of Knights Exemplar with her and Battle Driven+Potentially no KD Martyrdom is a pain.

>>50588534
Rupert Carvolo is also good for Pathfinder, and sometimes tough although that's less relevant into Khador Sniper Nests.

>>50568730
Tell that to my vanquishers with vassals.
I dare you.

>local Warmachine meta almost completely dissolved
>only games played regularly at FLGS are 40k and AoS

Meta dissolved due to a piece of shit PG, guys moving away, and no-life that's at the store every day that just saw new players and demo-games as simply a way to get another win.

There's only 3 of us left, one of them is the douche that prays on new players.

Life is suffering.

>>50591709
let the game die out, its for the best
i've been in that situation and its shitty, but playing against the same 2 or 3 people forever always is just a shit time and will make you either hate or get bored of the game veeery quickly

>>50575922
Firestorm Games.

Don't use Wayland, they're utter shite. Everyone I know whose ordered from them have had a bad experience with waiting months for an order if something is out of stock.

>>50592196
I haven't played a Warmachine game since the Mk3 release event.

The PG decided to finally host an event with that and the guys that moved away traveled back to play in it. We had a total of 8 players and had a blast.

PG hasn't even shown up in the FLGS since.

Looking forward to someone sharing the Trolls book. Particularly interested in how much reuse of material they're doing in terms of the background and painting. Also wondering if there will be any new fiction.

>>50592264
I second that about Wayland.
If they do not have your item in stock do not bother.
Made an order on early August and got it last week.

>>50586670
It's up on their site now. $32 for a digital copy of a book, fuck right off pp

>>50589063
DC was the best designer they had and they fucked him around until he left. Now Soles makes important decisions, ehich is terrible.

>>50597299
The number of spoopy skulls is way up though

>>50597165

Digital? Where?
I see only choice between softcover and hardcover.
Or am I blind?

>>50597299

Yeah they fucked over David. If all those details came out, it would be pretty ugly.

I wish W.P. well but I think it was a mistake to accept that position. They're not a good company to be a line employee for.

With all the negative feedback from Skorne forums, you would think you could catch a steal on eBay. But oh noes, not a single good offer from what I can tell. Most guys tries to sell shit, more expensive than store price, or they play the "pro painted" card just because it happens to be base coated...

http://conflictchamber.com/#bb1b_-09evfy1d1d0O0O0Oflflfl4g4geMeMfFfF

Minion Army - 74 / 75 points
Theme: The Thornfall Alliance

(Helga 1) Helga the Conqueror [+29]
- Battle Boar [7]
- Road Hog [16]
- Road Hog [16]
Farrow Brigands (max) [15]
- Farrow Brigand Warlord [4]
Farrow Brigands (max) [15]
- Farrow Brigand Warlord [4]
Farrow Brigands (max) [15]
- Farrow Brigand Warlord [4]
Farrow Razorback Crew [0]
Farrow Razorback Crew [5]
Efaarit Scouts [0]
Efaarit Scouts [0]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]
Swamp Gobber Chef [1]


Tried the commandos, even with ambush they're solidly meh. If they had stealth instead of prowl, they'd be good, but alas, minions tax.

This list, however, is a scenario god. With the reworked slam rules, home running Behemoth 6" away with a single brigand is hilarious. Slams being available while the enemy is knocked down is great as well. Combined with the efaariat scouts, playing soccer has never been so much fun. It suffers greatly without a live scenario though.

>>50593102
The lore is pretty much what you'd expect. Tons of new art and photos of minis and even a page with models painted by players.

The painting guides are all new but aren't as good as previous guides. The book is nice but not a necessary purchase

>>50598709
>The book is nice but not a necessary purchase

I've been playing for six years and outside of battleboxes, I've bought exactly one book in that time.

I'm honestly pretty happy that PP doesn't produce books that are necessary purchases.

>>50598275
You are looking in the wrong places.

Reminder that Skorne's theme list will only allow Xerxis as a warlock and will be called HOOOOKSUUUUUUUUUUUUUNE.

>>50598992
>for every 30p of Molik Karn, add one free Slinger

>>50599170
>"I spent months working on it and playtesting it." - Jason Soles

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I have no clue about anything but i bought a beginning to an army.

>>50599515
Nice. You will probably want a beast or two more though to use up your warbeast points.

>>50599567
I have an argus and kromac in the mail.

>>50599678
Then probably one more beast, probably a Stalker or a Pureblood. Warbeast points were increased dramatically in Mk3 and you will want to use every single one of them. Aside from that you have a nice starting force and the next important step is getting a few games in (and of course painting).

>>50599515
Now buy Wurmwood.

I really want to get into wargaming but I suffer from severe buyer's remorse and fear of missing out. For skub reasons I don't want warhammer. Is this agreably the next best thing? I can't afford more than one game so I need to be extra sure.

>>50600180
Check around your local area. See if there are players (if not, there's no reason to get into it). Meet them, see if there's a Press Ganger (PP volunteer community organizers) or somebody willing to let you play some demo games.

If, after that, you like the players and the game, then go ahead and get into it.

>>50600180
Yes. Get the best war-noun, top two 'jacks/beasts, and top two infantry. Then buy anything that you think looks cool.

You probably won't win every match, but you'll be off to a good start.

Still cheaper than WH$40k.

>>50600180
If you want cheap, play a skirmisher instead.

>>50599825
That is not solid noob advice.

>>50600219
My local store only does guild ball which is something too specific for my tastes, for some reason I love well made generic things more than anything. I'll be moving out soon though.

>>50600304
Find a place that plays WMH before investing in it.

It's a great game, but you need a community to really get the best out of it.

That said, do any of the factions interest you? We can throw some buyers remorse immune models from most factions at you.

>>50600377
I love unified, concise design. After a slightly more than brief look trollbloods, retribution of scyrah, convergence of cyriss and any of the minions/mercenaries subfactions seem to fit that bill.

>>50598027
Details? I haven't played for a few years. Been too busy.

>>50598027
I always thought that working with PP is pretty chill, considering how apparent it is they are doing jack shit.

>>50600506

Off the top of my head:

Trollbloods stuff that's universally good:

Krielstone bearer and the attachment -- basically all Troll lists have one; the new caster can run without it, but everyone else wants one to some degree or another.

Fell Caller Heroes and Stone Scribe Chroniclers show up just about everywhere as support solos.

Dire Traul Maulers are near universally useful due to their animus. Dire Troll Bombers, Troll Axers, and Troll Bouncers are also highly over-represented.

As for units, it depends a lot on the caster. Fennblades and Highwaymen show up a lot.

Retribution:

You want three Arcanist Mechaniks. Banshees are great. Imperatus and Discordia are also great.

Sentinels and Halbardiers are top-tier infantry and work even with minimal support.

>>50600841
>Retribution:
>You want three Arcanist Mechaniks. Everything is great.
FTFY

>>50600993
Well, Houseguard is just good, not great.

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>>50564385

You and I paint exactly the same. And for that I like you.

>>50600841
I like how you mentioned Sentinels but ignored Invictors.

>>50600993
>"oh boy, everything is great!"
>buys two max units of destors

Who is supposed to be the strongest iron kingdom?

>>50601981
Cryx.

>>50601146
Brothers in faith. May Menoth guide you.

>>50601981
With dragons? Cryx. Without? Skorne.

>>50601842
They're no Lances, but still very playable.

>>50601981
>Strongest Iron Kingdom
>Iron Kingdom
>CYGNAR

>>50601981
Ignoring the giant dragon, likely Cyngar.

Most resources, highest quality of their army, best system for finding and training warcasters.

Skorne is the strongest organized nation in the setting that's been brought up, but they have to project their force over some pretty nasty supply lines, so they have very little power in relation to their size.

>>50602185
Also Cryx and Skorne aren't Iron Kingdoms. The kingdoms are Khador Ord Lael Cygnar and sometimes Trollbloods..

>>50602215
Cryx is still regarded as an Iron Kingdom, even if the Nightmare Empire isn't exactly part of the normal deal.

Skorne isn't an Iron Kingdom mostly by technicality. Ignoring their power level just because they're in the Hordes book seems silly as hell.

>>50600180
I would play whats poplar in your area. If the community is bigger/better for warhammer v warmachine then I would go with that one. I've been playing these games for a long time, I would just throw out that imo, WMH is a better game from a rules perspective (kind of), but I don't know if its necessarily a more 'fun' game.

>>50602319
I am not intereted in warhammer at all. I just wanted to know if wmh is the best alternative, i.e there are no similar contenders.

>>50602739
it's really what you want out of the game.

Warmachine is very competitive focused, with combo and synergy based gameplay. It's got a pretty high skill ceiling overall, with a lot of focus on understanding what your and your opponents models are capable of, especially the weird little interactions.

If that''s what you're after, sweet, hop in. If not, look for something else, I think.

But the guy you replied to is correct, there's no bigger buyers remorse than buying a game no one plays. Having those models sitting around collecting dust is going to suck if it's the only wargame you can afford, so check your community to see what people play, ask for some demo games, or ask for people to explain their games as they play them(more involved, but it helps understand the actual game most people play better, demo games can often have no real indication of anything but the basic rules)

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>>50602739

As a several year veteran of Warmachine, play Infinity.

Warmachine has done nothing but go downhill lately, don't jump on a sinking ship.

>>50603103
Man that was such a shit episode. Literally just Riker having daddy issues.

>>50603103
Infinity is reference nightmare

>>50600841
That isn't fair. Sometimes you only need two mechanics.

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>>50603117
The worst. Well maybe the episode where they devolve

>>50603370
It's not bad after you play for a bit

>>50603103
Psht, the game is more balanced than its been in ages. The only problems are that Skorne needs a rewrite and Cryx players need to be less salty.

Considering that PP are supposedly getting more active with erratas and such, it looks like the teething issues for MKIII will probably be addressed.

>>50603370
It has no more special rules than 40K, and the main mechanics of the game are pretty simple.

>>50603501
>the game is more balanced than its been in ages
This. People just got used to playing infantrymachine, but the game's internal balance was borked pretty hard. Factions were given brand new models just to help deal with Mk2's cancerous infantry meta (Incindiarii and Hexeris2 in Skorne for example).

>>50603501
>Psht, the game is more balanced than its been in ages

You're crazy or lying :)

DC left PP, they haven't recovered. Their electronic IP issues persist (and persist and persist..).

It's more than Skorne and Cryx anon. When you have Flank ruled "Working as designed" and requiring players to throw tantrums..this should tell you how piss poor their design is doing.

My meta has collapsed and moved on to other games. Warmahordes had its moment, is too bad, was a pretty great game.

>>50603733
I think you're being blinded by their mistakes.

The overall base rules changes to Mk3 have been pretty good. Changes to camping for Focus, Power Up, and all the other things they did were all good choices.

Yea, their faction balance is kind of fucked, but honestly, the boogymen of Mk3 are far nicer to fight than the monsters of Mk2. I'll take Wurmwood or Madrak2 over Haley2 or Gaspy2 any day.

>>50601438
The difference between Sentinels and Invictors is that I have seen a Mk3 Ret list that did not contain Invictors. They're very good infantry, but in the Ret stable, only the third most common as far as I can tell.

>>50603501
And 40k special rules each do one thing. Infinity gives you tables and actions need to be divided between normal and reactions.

Infinity is a huge rule glutton especially if you start using aliens infiltration and hacking

>>50603878
Not that guy but the mistakes made are fucking basic level unfinished game mistakes.

Siege and marauder has rules that doesn't do anything. Madrak 1 actively skornegy his feat and spells. The response to flank was completely stupid. Rulings are on a wild whim since you can now targeting flare with broadsides when before you can't with zero text change.

>>50603733
Not the guy you're replying to but... yeah, it's better balanced than it has been since I've played, and I started late Mk1. Each edition's rules have been straight up improvements, and Mk3 is no exception.

Twice-yearly balancing errata and hiring one of the top players seems to indicate it will get better. It honestly doesn't need too much right now; there are about ten models that have a power level such as it harms the overall game, and I'd be surprised if they weren't all brought in to line.

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>>50603878

Sure there were some good changes. Command changes were certainly good.

I'm not sold that the Focus Camp is better yet. Low armor casters without shield guards are in a world of hurt right now. I've seen Harby get blown off the table more times than I can count, even with shield guards.

I'm also not sold that Power Up 'is' a good fix. It's tough to tell since not only did they give out Power up, they also increased stats on Warjacks and decreased points to a level of stupidity.

Maddogs won WMW. Nothing but Maddogs with a Caster camping most game. Dats...fun...

I played against Haley2 and Gaspy2 just about every week. Gaspy2 had answers, as did Haley2. Were they strong, absolutely. But they weren't spam, gunline or armor skew.

I've seen new players get Kara Sloaned off the table. Or watch High Reclaimer Feat and end the game from down town. Or Wurmwood basically play Tree City all game.

I'll take the end of Mark 2 over what the game is now. Games are decided before dice are thrown with matchups right now and that's total shit. Sorry bro, I love the game too but I have to admit when it's moved on and jumped the shark and here we are.

>>50604020
I actually really liked the meta in mkii where colossals were released but the gargantuans book didn't drop. Best mkii period for me

In a weird way, I think Cryx actually did the game a favour in Mk2. Sure you HAD to have a Cryx list, but this meant that you other one list was most likely going to be a nice rounded list with no gimmicks.

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>>50604012

The game is not better right now then the end of Mark 2. Not even close bro.

A list at WMW, the premier event in the US, was nothing but one jack spammed. When did that happen in Mark 2?

Speaking of Pagani--he won WMW with Khador and shit units people normally talked trash on (and Butcher 3). Yeah Vlad turns on a lot of units but that tells you, out of the blue, Kommandos! Mark 2 was dynamic.

Mark 3 just isn't fun and while the hiring of Pagani is certainly promising, it might be too little (he's only one guy) and too late.

Look at Una2, Kaya3, Wurmwood, jacks, etc. etc...and we've barely scratched the surface.

Their balance is going to be whack a mole because we have no idea how bad things will be. Fix Maddogs? What about 10 point Crusaders? Or 12 point Juggers?

The only hope for balance is...they do this shit to move product (Una2 Griffons)...make their buck then errata it. I say hope because while that's nefarious and GW like, at least it will make them nerf shit that needs it.

They've just moved on since DC left them and I understand now why he said he just had to go.

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>>50604064

Mk2 was brilliant for awhile. Yep, Haley was a bitch and theme forces sucked but man, it was a fun game.

Try introducing a new player to Steamroller, come back to the table and see them playing Linebreaker with his opponent being Kara Sloan.

Welcome to Warmachine! I promise it gets better...hey where you going? Don't sell your models yet..there's an errata in 6 months!

>>50604003
Structure rules are coming, they're just not in the base stuff.

And it's not like they lost anything with those rules, they're just fluffy extra that got tacked on. Same as the Sea King or the Kraken having Ambi.

>>50604020
Low ARM casters deserve the world they're in, it was fucking stupid to have the fragile high DEF casters hitting ARM20+ and being nearly unkillable.

Mad Dogs is a very singular issue, and even then, jack spam is still more interesting than the shit we had in Mk2. At least the game plays the way it advertises itself.

>I played against Haley2 and Gaspy2 just about every week. Gaspy2 had answers, as did Haley2. Were they strong, absolutely. But they weren't spam, gunline or armor skew.

What? Gapsy2 was straight up dudespam, and Haley2 was just a fucking horrible mess.

You bring up Kara Sloan, but you know what she isn't? Lyl2. Her entire ranged assassination is worse, and she doesn't get to fucking turn the whole thing into "Just murder all your shit instead" nearly as easily.

Same with your other examples. They all existed in Mk2, and they were all much harder to deal with. The meta was just used to them compared to the shit now.

Beyond that, a lot of the shit you're talking about is supposed to get fixed. If it doesn't, sure it's time for PP to figure it's shit out, but that's still far more than what we got in Mk2, where Haley2 just got to fucking take your turn for years without a change.

And you want to take about games being decided before dice are thrown? Fucking Body and Soul, full stop. Nothing in Mk3 compares to Body and Soul, at fucking all.

>>50604114
And most of Mk2 was just dudespam.

So the nature of the spam has changed, how is this worse?

There's precisely 1 list where jack spam is a major issue, and that's Karchev Mad Dogs.

And again, actually getting to see jacks on the table is a hell of a lot more interesting.

>>50604188
Again, Kara Sloan is so much easier than Lyl2 was. You can do the exact same story with a Legion player across the table, and it's worse for the new player.

This shit is just rose tinted goggles.

>>50604277
Because you rarely would take duplicates of infantry. You would have say black dragons and wgi, not two of either. Made it more diverse.

>>50604114

>A list at WMW, the premier event in the US, was nothing but one jack spammed. When did that happen in Mark 2?

Wold War.
Battle Boars.
Evolutionary Elementalism.

And then there's the classic Mk2 infantry spams:

Any tournament list with pSkarre
Mad Dogs of War
Miserable Meat Mountain
Fist of Halaak


Did you *play* Mk2 competitively? There was spamming all over the place. Unless you're going to say "bloo bloo I said jacks", because, yes, Mk2 didn't do *jack* spam, it just did infantry and beast spam. Jack spam is not somehow intrinsically worse because they're *not* beasts or infantry, just different miserable spam lists to play in to.

>Una2

*Very* strong caster. Lots of counterplay in to her, though.

>Kaya3

We have not yet seen her card.

>Wurmwood

Yeah, he sucks. Going to get nerfed in the errata, though, and from I've heard about his changes, enough to matter. Which is why I think the game is not in such a bad place because how long did Haley2 keep her soul-sucking feat in Mk2, and Gaspy2 was ridiculous even after being nerfed three times. And then shit like Harbinger and Krueger2 made it through the whole edition without getting even gently touched by the nerfbat.

>What about 10 point Crusaders? Or 12 point Juggers?

Are people actually complaining about either? They're both strong, but I don't think either is bad-for-the-game-strong like Mad Dogs et al.

I think you have rose-tinted glasses for Mk2. Mk3 has problems, Mk2 had more.

>>50604188
>Try introducing a new player to Steamroller, come back to the table and see them playing Linebreaker with his opponent being Kara Sloan.

This is such a non issue. If you're planning on being a dick to a new player, then it doesn't matter what you play. You could have almost any caster in the game be a negative experience if you're just throwing them to the wolves.

Also
>Kara Sloan
>somehow worse than Lylyth2 in mk2

Oh how quickly they forget.

Do you guys think we could petition for bringing wreck markers back? They were nicely fluffy and taking them away is purchase invalidation.

>>50604356
Na, it's not pointless. One of the big reasons they got taken away is that defensive casters were bringing cheap as fuck lights and then killing them for placeable cover right where it needed to be, boosting the power level of fragile casters immensely.

>>50604239
It doesn't matter that structures don't matter. The game should've at least be finished. This is street fighter five tier developer retardedness. No shit people are gonna complained about an unfinished game regardless whether the features are necessary or not.

I never expected mkiii to be amazing but PP has shit the bed at every single step so far. Insiders were uninformative mess and just passed people off due to Soles. During the gang rule debacle hungerford wrote about a Helga list when I personally know he has an old calaban list he loves that's actually good now.

Just stupid, stupid decisions and announcements. You know the pr is fucked when Doug Hamilton's 40% done sculpt is generating more buzz than their lnl announcements.

So fucking stupid.

>>50604356

Use them as terrain or base decorations. Anyone who actually used those wreck markers PP sold on the table deserve to be wracked.

>>50604114
>Fix Maddogs? What about 10 point Crusaders? Or 12 point Juggers?

Do you actually understand the issue with Mad Dogs, or do you just think jackspam is bad no matter what?

The issues with Mad Dogs would not be an issue with Juggs or Crusaders.

>>50604407
This isn't nearly as bad as the SF5 issues. There's some issues, sure, but one specific rule not functioning because of a future release(and that rule not being some sort of hold over from Mk2 either) is hardly torches and pitchforks level of issue.

>>50604333
Holy fuck, have you heard of Mad Dogs of War? Miserable Meat Mountain? Fist of Halaak?

MDoW was the worst offender, with 56 of the same fucking spell immune POW 12 Weapon Master Berserk infantry.

Same thing; the worst cases are spammy and miserable. They're just different in Mk3 than Mk2, they definitely existed in Mk2, and outside of Mad Dogs, worse in Mk2.

Strange how it went from Mad Dogs of War to just straight up Mad Dogs, but still...

>>50604239
>spam is okay when it's models I like
neck yourself.

>>50604277
Only dude spam I recall was cryx never using anything but banes and trolls were always champions with support.

I didn't play after the colossals hit though.


Honestly the only thing I hate about Mk III so far is that I have to completely re-work my lists at minimum. It's looking like a couple I'll have to go and buy shit to make them work right. Otherwise I'm going to wait until January and see the errata. If it doesn't do something to make Cygnar better other than nerfing 'lances, then I'm probably not going to bother playing until a new edition comes out or they fix other issues.

>>50604407

PP fucked up with how they handled Mk3, it's true. It's painfully obvious they rushed out a product in order to clamp down on other companies gobbling up players getting bored of Mk2. The end result, regardless of how they handled it, is a stronger edition rules wise. Yes there are boogeymen in Mk3, but this isn't any different than in Mk2 where some factions really had nothing they could do against Haley2, Bradigus, EE, Lylyth2, etc. The spam is bad now, it's not as bad as it was in the tail end of Mk2. We're just lucky Battle Boar spam never got to see the light of day.

>>50604378
Perhaps you are right, but I think it was an interesting strat. Not that I cared, I only play hardy casters. How about fancy powerattacks? They werent a balance issue so there was no reason to take them away.

>>50604450
I would argue it being worse. Sfv had functioning multiplayer. Wmh shipped with unchargeable knockdowns and linebreaker.

>>50604476
>Only dude spam I recall was cryx never using anything but banes and trolls were always champions with support.
>champions with support
>I didn't play after the colossals hit though

So what you're saying is that you have no idea what you're talking about.

>>50604516
Maybe the boogeymen arent as prelevant, but the game feels way more soul crushing. I am shot of the table way more often than before and it is far from fun. I would rather be smacked off of it. I feel like homebrewed armies work poorer than ever and you are confined to your best units.

>>50604589
>Maybe the boogeymen arent as prelevant, but the game feels way more soul crushing. I am shot of the table way more often than before and it is far from fun. I would rather be smacked off of it. I feel like homebrewed armies work poorer than ever and you are confined to your best units.

I don't know what to tell you other than that your "feelings" have no value when it comes to objectively looking at what we know of Mk2 and what we see trending of Mk3.

>games feel way more soul crushing

I'm trying to think of advice other than 'git gud' at this point, but I'm struggling.

Frankly if you think Mad Dogs is more soul crushing than Wold War was at it's peak, or Kara Sloan is more soul crushing than Lylyth2 was for all of Mk2, then I don't think we're even playing the same game anymore.

Try playing against Mk2 Haley2 in her prime and tell me Mk3 is somehow more soul crushing than having your opponent dictate how your entire turn will go, and then lose bottom of 2. Not "get your army shot off the table" bottom of 2, but "I've activated your army in a way that you can't even contest, I score 5, gg wp" bottom of 2.

>>50604520
Push went away because the only things it was particularly useful for were really counter to power attacks in general -- either pushing your own guy up for an extra inch of threat, or using it to start up Synergy chains because it auto-hit. No great loss there. You can argue that the universality of the extra threat range increased the tactical complexity of the game, but, meh. It was gimmicky at best, and unlike some stuff like throws which have counter-intuitive uses, was used pretty much exclusively for the counter-intuitive stuff.

By the time Mk2 came around and the only playable heavies were those that had a good shot at one-rounding other heavies, locks were so useless in the last three years of Mk2 I saw exactly one ever performed that was *not* the result of someone showing off the rule in a battlebox game.

I see why Push was removed, and don't miss them enough to care. Locks were pointless rules bloat once one-rounding heavies was the norm.

>>50604422
>The issues with Mad Dogs would not be an issue with Juggs or Crusaders.

I just want to echo this point. Mad Dogs are a problem not just because of their cheap cost, but because of the kit they bring. Combine them with Karchev and there just aren't many things the Spam doesn't have an answer for. Hell, thanks to Jury Rigged, the list doesn't even really suffer from low speed.

>>50604589
>I am shot of the table way more often than before and it is far from fun.

That is a fair point; Mk2 was a melee game that had shooting elements, Mk3 has buffed shooting to the point that it's viable in most armies. If you actively hate being shot, Mk3 is a clear downgrade.

You could, though, play Protectorate and laugh at most gunlines, though. I've done it, and it's actually kinda amusing.

>>50604532
Linebreaker was designed to be a tamp on control casters to keep them from winning games so easily.

I think the rise of gunlines wasn't so heavily predicted for it, and even then, if we start seeing some of the gunlines take a hit, I don't think the scenario will be nearly so bad.

I honestly think the universal decision to drop linebreaker is why Wurmwood is so bad. The tree doesn't do a whole lot of shit on that table compared to what he does in others.

>>50604673
Sometimes you cant one round mulg and locking the mace can save your ass. Also, removing shields was useful for cracking armor. I believe gimmicks are a good thing that contribute to the fun factor.

>>50604674
I do think Crusader spam becomes the top jackspam list after Mad Dogs get nerfed, but agree that it's just not as threatening, and has a lot fewer boxes to chew through, which is the bad part.

>>50604748
>>50604673
The most notable arm lock was when the PoM player locked the Colossal arm so it couldn't kill his Avatar.

But Arm Locks were mostly just complicated and rarely if ever used. Their biggest use was just hand holding, which again, was an incredibly counter intuitive use that the attack was never meant for.

>>50604749
It's just the issue that I can absolutely put a list on the table that can chew through Mad Dogs, but I'm just going to clock myself doing it.

>>50604748
The problem is even that doesn't work, since if you couldn't one-round him, you're not as strong as he is *before* he gets Rage on him, so he activates, and loses one initial and just beats you to a pulp anyway.

If it were useful in more than 1% of games, I'd agree, and would buy the argument that a reworked Lock would be better, but Mk2 Locks were mercifully euthanized.

>>50604672
Infantry spam can be teched against. Mad dogs have no clear weakness and beat you with sheer number values. At least skinner got weapon master to crack that armor. Funnily enough I never had the courtesy of playing against lylyth. And Haley was cancer, yes. Still, I think that internal balance is fucked because buffs and nerfs were thrown randomly around and now wedge between good and bad models is bigger than ever.

>>50604802
But it's only Mad Dogs that's the problem, not jack spam, and Mad Dogs is very likely getting fixed.

Beyond that, internal balance in Mk2 was fucking shit as well, I wouldn't say it's gotten any worse, just changed some.

>>50604789
A rarely used option that doesnt interfere with regular gameplay is a thousand times better than no option at all. This will sound like bait, but I like how you elaborate. So tell me, how you felt about command checks?

>>50604826
Cygnar went from fielding gun mages, every single knight/blade whatever model, trenchers and whatnot (never all of them but in many combinations) to fielding lances. Same can be said about every faction but I cant be bothered typing them out on my phone.

>>50604885
>every single knight/blade whatever model, trenchers and whatnot (never all of them but in many combinations)

No. They put Gunmages and Rangers on the table.

The other stuff was random jank.

>>50604898
Yes. Jank that made it to tournament tables. Jank that is rendered completely unplayable in mk3 environment.

>>50604747
Line breaker is just one of many reasons why this year's steamroller is garbage

>>50604911
A lot of that jank can make tables in Mk3 as well. You're comparing less than 6 months of meta to years and years of shit. It has taken forever for some shit to show up on the table in Mk2, immediately writing that shit off in Mk3 seems pretty foolish.

>>50604938
I can bet my money on kriel warriors not getting a buff in the next four erratas. As is all they provide is being overpriced moving sandbags. You cannot justify taking them.

>>50604885

Mk2 Cygnar was Stormwall+Gun Mages+Mercs. Anything else was completely situational to what caster you played. There was a reason the faction was known as "Mercnar" in Mk2. Cygnar internal balance in Mk2 was way worse than it is now. At least now we can take Trenchers.

>>50604848
>A rarely used option that doesnt interfere with regular gameplay is a thousand times better than no option at all.

I've had enough tournament games where my opponent called a judge over to adjudicate a *throw* to disagree here (emphasis on throw because they happen enough because they're actually likely to be useful). There's simply a point of utility where having something in the game detracts from it by existing because the added complexity is not worth any nuance added to the game.

But we may just have to agree to disagree; I understand your argument, I just prioritize things in the game system differently.

>This will sound like bait,

Not at all.

>So tell me, how you felt about command checks?

I think it's a lot like locks; it's less that the idea as a whole is bad, but the Mk2 implementation was bad enough that Mk3 benefits from its removal. I certainly don't think that it's impossible for command checks to benefit the game, I just think that Mk3's lack of them is superior to Mk2's implementation.

I don't like them for the same reason I didn't like morale in 40k (which I played for a decade before switching to WMH); there was a system which wasn't bad in and of itself, but ways to get around it were handed out like so much candy that models that had to abide by it mostly felt penalized by the whole thing because "(effectively) susceptible to morale rules" described a minority of stuff in the game. WMH is the same way, and then had models who had rules that interacted with the morale system (e.g., Terror) that were often useless because of how much of the ecosystem just ignored them (and even worse, very often completely forgotten about because of it).

For the record, I think the elemental immunities are basically the same thing; magical as a damage type is handled pretty well, but the elements are still kinda borked.

>>50604989
Ragnor and Horgle2 run them quite well.

>>50605227
So does Madrak3, actually.

Oh, hey, just got a War Room update.

>still no Thornfall
>still no Troll themes

>>50605203
Cmd checks werent that ucommon. The whole system added more army building options if you were teching against something terror, wanted to capitalize on terror or simply expected lots of attrition. But for me the most important part is how removing morale makes the game less immersive and more shallow which in turn makes me apathetic about it because autism.

>>50605227
>>50605280
Ragnor does absolutely nothing for them and maddy3 supports them but doesnt change the fact that they are a tarpit that dies to pow 10 shoting, wont scratch anything with opportunity attacks and is costed as though it did.

>>50605314
Most tarpits die to POW10 shooting. It's the natural weakness to tarpits.

>>50605203
Elemental damage is either just a fluff thing or designed to be an intentional weakness if it doesn't come with some other benefit.

>>50605314
>Ragnor does absolutely nothing for them

That's why one of his common builds takes 30 of them, clearly.

>>50605474
ssshhhhhh

>>50605284
Considering that most of the infantry taken in Mk2 was either fearless or ranged, it really didn't come up all *that* much.

>>50605465
Well, that's the problem -- the "disadvantage" is if you happen to run into something with that immunity, you're hosed, and both things are uncommon enough that it's rarely something that gets actively teched against, it's just something that happens to show up across the table, and one person is screwed.

I'd be happier with it if there was just one elemental type and one elemental immunity, regardless of how weird that would be fluff-wise.

>>50605474
That's Madrak 2. Ragnor builds are battle group heavy

>>50605474
Ragnor takes beasts, dum dum. Madrak2 takes the infantry swarm.

>>50604557
Of the end of Mk II, no. No clue. I simply find it hard to believe it swung that hard over the last few years that I wasn't playing.

I mean, I kept up with the news. Haley2 was still fucking ridiculous and I don't recall her ever getting the nerf she needed. Never thought the theme force shenanigans were as bad as I hear they were. I assumed no one would ever run a theme force outside of very niche cases.

>>50605742
>I mean, I kept up with the news. Haley2 was still fucking ridiculous and I don't recall her ever getting the nerf she needed.

She and Denny2 got a well deserved nerf in the last year of Mk2.

>Never thought the theme force shenanigans were as bad as I hear they were. I assumed no one would ever run a theme force outside of very niche cases.

They were not only bad, they were rampant. Denny2 Body and Soul was so bad, that if you weren't experienced with it, you could lose the game right away by moving the model Denny2 had Pursuit on.

Oh yeah, Mad Dog spam is so bad sure but for a lot of Mk2 we had:

>Runes of War theme list: Runeshaper Spam
>Miserable Meat Mountain (Warders spam)
>Xerxis1 Fist of Halaak theme list: Cataphract spam
>Zaal1/Zaal2 theme lists: 30 Immortals
>Rasheth Chain Gang theme list: Titan spam
>pSkarre 30 Bane Knights
>Wold War theme list: Woldwatcher spam
>Vyros2 Griffon spam
>Body and Soul theme list: drudges and mechthrall spam
>Mad Dogs of War theme list: Doom Reaver spam
>pCaine Sons of the Tempest theme list: Gun Mage and Hunter spam
>Axis theme list: infantry spam

I'm sure I'm forgetting more too. These were not niche or situational lists, but lists that were actively taken, extremely competitive, and in some cases held up a faction that would otherwise be shit(Skorne, Convergence).

Really anyone who thinks the spam is worse now either has a very short memory or they just have no experience or understanding of the Mk2 meta.

>>50606190
>Sons of the Tempest theme
Wait, that got used? I thought it looked cool and would be fun, never thought it could make it anywhere competitively. Too easy to nuke ATGM and Hunters. Plus Caine1 had damn near zero assassination potential. There was a reason he wasn't one of the big three (or four depending on who you talked to).

Next you're going to tell me that the Siege Journeyman spam list was competitive.


Anyway, time to ask about advice.

So I was curious as to what was working well with Stryker 2, Kara Sloan, Stryker 3, Constance Blaize, and Stryker 1.

>>50606369
>Wait, that got used?

Yes, it was a fairly powerful list because it could absolutely shred infantry from across the board and the mass hunters would whittle down colossals or shred ARM 19 heavies. It wasn't extremely popular because of it's high buy in cost but it did appear in numerous tournaments. Mostly it was overlooked because of lists that could perform a similar function but had a cheaper buy in cost.

I have a food machine tournament this weekend. I play Skorne. Any suggestions on an out of Faction caster that would be sweet to play in Skorne? OR any Colossial/Gargantuan ?
Thanks!

>>50607524
Any Khador caster might do well enough.

>>50606190
Not to dispute that Sustained Attack wasn't good, but I think Lucant being an incredibly good caster with a great spell list certainly helped CoC out.

>>50604020
>Maddogs won WMW.
It won the final round. Butcher1 won all the others.

>>50604476
>shitposting is okay when you can't read
Fucking hell anon.

>>50604338
>*Very* strong caster. Lots of counterplay in to her, though.
Oh come on. As much as I enjoy MK3 and hope for Mk3.1 to be even better, fuck 2na with a rusty rake. Everything else could be nicely balanced next month but they had to release some more Circle bullshit.

>>50604898
>They put Gunmages and Rangers on the table.
And, ironically enough, Lances.

Any copies of the full rule book hardcover floating around in pdf?

>>50604989
>kriel warriors
They don't need a buff. They're whole purpose in life is to run up the table and engage enemy models. They're attachments could probably use some work but the base unit of Kriel Warriors for 11 points is great

>>50608532
Too bad that they suck at doing that. If run to engage is what you want, fenns do that much better. Kriels lost their prayers and are just absolute garbage.

Their only merit is that you can take 30 of them.

>>50609583
Imagine what Cryx builds like, they pay 15-17pts for a unit like that.

>>50609583
>Their only merit is that you can take 30 of them.

That's entirely the point of Kriel Warriors. Of course Fennblades are better, the difference is that you can get get 20 Kriel Warriors for 2 more points than a max unit of Fennblades. You're not buying quality, you're buying chaff. Certain warlocks in Trolls can make that much chaff actually quite frustrating to deal with.

>>50610068
And now you spent 33 points on junk that will contest point for a turn before dying to blast damage while being unable to crack dedicated ranged infantry.

>>50610068
Also, if you think fenns are quality, think again. Point for point they are best in trolls but still one of the worst good melee infantry. Pikemen, sentinels, satyxis, wolves and many more moodels in other factions are plain better. They need to cost a bit less or get two more armor.

Really really wish PP was being more open about the changes they're going to make. 6 months of near silence is enough time for people to lose interest and stop playing.

>>50611637
If they announced what they are going to fuck up it would make even more people quit. Between you and me, Ive heard skinner will lose weaponmaster because he skews listbuilding in trolls too much.

>>50611704
Wowee zowee! But he just -gained- weapon master with this fancy, new addition! And they'd take it away so quickly?

I sure hope they don't take away the classic Champion ability that they've always had that allows them to be immune to KD when they are B2B. Sure hope they don't remove reposition 5 from the War Wagon.

>>50611637
C'mon man, do you mean that your interest isn't retained by spooky skulls, creeptastic forum posts, and cryptic poetry slams?

>>50600180
Being "better than warhammer" isn't especially difficult. GW is pretty much bottom-of-the-barrel when it comes to putting out rules (even while being arguably the best in the business for model quality).

WMH is a great game, but it is a bit pricey. If you're not sure, skirmish games like Guildball, Infinity or Malifaux are a bit cheaper to get started with and test the waters. It's also worth looking at what players in your area are actually playing... none of the games are good if you can't find opponents.

>>50604020
>I'm not sold that the Focus Camp is better yet. Low armor casters without shield guards are in a world of hurt right now. I've seen Harby get blown off the table more times than I can count, even with shield guards.
Focus camp is definitely BETTER, but no it's not perfect. The old system was broken, and definitely needed a fix. And I actually like the new system, mechanically speaking - it's spiritually closer to Transfers, and introduces another level to the resource management decisions for WM. Might be as simple as some casters just needing stat adjustments.

>>50604064
>I actually really liked the meta in mkii where colossals were released but the gargantuans book didn't drop. Best mkii period for me
I actually really disliked Colossals because I was playing Cygnar at the time. Stormwall increased the overall power of the faction, but it invalidated so so many choices in doing so. I actually prefer the first couple years of Mk2 (with the notable exception of Gaspy2 across the table).

>>50604114
>The game is not better right now then the end of Mark 2. Not even close bro.
Of two minds on this. Late Mk2 was a very finely tuned game. You could of course still find people complaining about balance if you asked around, but the margins were very, very small. But it did have some systematic problems that could really only be addressed with a new edition.

Late Mk2 WAS better than what we're dealing with now, but I think Mk3 has far more potential to be a great game, if that makes sense.

>>50558721
ded gaem

>>50612808
Guildball and Infinity are top tier games. WM/H is mid tier at best.

>>50608271
>fuck 2na with a rusty rake

I don't disagree with the sentiment, because I don't like casters whose primary trick is a really strong assassination.

But, playing both Cygnar and Circle, I honestly don't think she's stronger than the current iteration of Haley2 *into players aware of how to play in to her*.

I should point out, though, that I tend to think about these things in terms of tournament pairing. She's ridiculously OP into non-competitive players because you have to know how to play her, though, or you insta-lose.

>>50610300
Which is why Ragnor loves them.

>>50610321
Ahh, nevermind, your army sucks, PP shits on you specifically, woe is you.

git gud.

>>50613651
>I honestly don't think she's stronger than the current iteration of Haley2
And that just says it all.

>>50613676
Care to elaborate?

For reference, I think Haley2 is overpowered. I think Una2 is overpowered. I think there's more counterplay into Una2, so I don't think she's *as* overpowered.

I'd like to see both nerfed in the errata.

>>50613746
>I'd like to see both nerfed in the errata.
Me too. The problem is that 2na will not be touched, while Haley2 likely will.

>>50613796
That is a good point. Una2 is likely to be the strongest Hordes caster if not the strongest caster in the game after the errata. Until Kaya3 -- Circle Christmas NEVER ENDS

But she has counterplay, and even if she's untouched in the errata (I'm really not sure how likely this is, as her rules were probably finalized well before the errata, so there's some chance of a change), Sentry Stones are very likely to get nerfed, and if their threat range or damage output gets dropped, her effectiveness falls off significantly -- what changes her from "good caster with great scenario feat and noob-stomping assassination feat" to "good caster with great scenario or ridiculous assassination feat" is whether or not your assassination-lane blockers have to withstand 2016 v0 Sentry Stones.

But having played and played against all of the above, I don't think she's as strong as Mk3 Haley2, and not in the same league as Mk2 Haley2.

>>50613672
>Ahh, nevermind, your army sucks, PP shits on you specifically, woe is you.
>git gud.
He's not wrong. Fenns are pretty good in Trolls but mostly because they suck the least.

Compated to other options in the game they're much weaker/overcosted a couple points.

Not a huge deal or even a complaint. The reality of playing Trolls is that your dudes cost more and aren't quite as good as other stuff. It's been that way since Mk1

People still play this? Talk about sunk cost... or maybe it's just Stockholm

>>50614264
People still play WMH. And faggots still complain about every detail on an anonymous image board. Nothing new here.

So where this pdf at? Anyone have a copy of it yet?

>>50608011
Seriously?

All of this bitching about the world ending because Mad Dog spam won WMW, and the winner played Mad Dog spam in *one* game?

>>50617080
Yea Mr Autism disregard the entire thread and ask inane questions. That's the entire reason.

Are you literally autistic?

Man this community has went downhill, glad I mostly got out.

>>50614264
It's purely sunken cost for me.

I'm quitting the game for good if the next steamroller document turns out to be shit.

>>50617816
Quitting for what? There are no "alternatives". Skirmish level games just don't feel the same. 40K is even worse. What are you going to do?

>>50618184
Already play x wing, malifaux, guildball, 30k, likely gonna play drop fleet, bloodbowl, and whatever else.

I played warmachine because it was good. Not because of scale or theme.

>>50600841
Highwaymen? Why?

If PP fucks up this errata in January, I'm pretty sure the game will die at my LGS. The two most active players are Skorne and Legion, and both are pissed at the flaws of their factions.

>>50619095
What's wrong with Legion? All the Legion players around here have been living it up since Mk3. Most even agree with everyone else that the Hellmouth needs a nerf.

>>50619516
Well I'm the Skorne player, and I really don't get his complaints. I do alright against the rest of the shop considering, but I'm like 1-9 against him. His main gripes are that his beasts are too expensive, and his models are generally only good with certain casters. To me that doesn't even seem like a problem though. I fucking wish I didn't have to start every list I make with a Gladiator, Cannoneer, Handlers, generic tarpit, Soulward, and a Void Spirit.

>>50619609
Legion's class cannon, so if they're losing, they're losing hard, which is a big issue.

It's super easy to just get swept off the table as Legion if you don't know what you're doing.

>>50619737
Glass cannon or not is irrelevant, it's all down to risk vs reward and how you play it. Playing against the best alpha faction in the game is outright impossible as Skorne though. If I lose 2 heavies first, I probably can't come back. And if I stay too far back, I lose on objectives. He's always done well at our LGS though, so his complaints seem a bit much. He'll talk endlessly about how Typhon, a beast that's basically impossible for a single heavy to one round, is overcosted, despite its animus basically making it a 13/20 that can chomp anything off the table with ease. Fucking Legion, I'd kill for some of their shit.

>>50619882
Just because Skorne is the bottom of the barrel doesn't mean that everything else is balanced against each other. Legion might be better than Skorne, but they do have problems.

My biggest gripe with them is how one-sided their casters are. They either support beasts really well, or units, but nothing for the respective other. Or they're great for ranged or melee, but nothing else. There's very little in the way of playable, interesting casters with a bit of balance there.

>>50559745
Every year is the year of Cygnar plus one or two others factions.Seriously, I don't recall a single book coming out that they didn't get something good. Maybe back in Mk 1?

>>50620270
>My biggest gripe with them is how one-sided their casters are. They either support beasts really well, or units
I don't see the problem with that when Legion has perfectly servicable weaponmaster infantry to deal with heavies.

>>50619516
Legion is one of the more playable hordes faction.

The Legion problem is that they are being muscled in on their own game. Saeryn gets a feat nerf while Una basically steals her old feat. People are going battle group heavy with efficiency.

Legion used to be the efficient battle group army where you piece trade extremely well at the sacrifice of limited durability and capacity to unfuck yourself.

Lower fury management abilities, and warmachine heavies now easily killing their angels mean that they lost that edge.

It's not the worst thing, but Legion has definitely lost their bite